Bubble Pop with Rachel Gilmore - What did you do with your power？ (with Kagiso Lesego Molope)

00:00:00.000 Our voices are just as powerful as the people we put in power and people have to stop saying

00:00:06.820 that, weren't you scared, asking, weren't you scared?

00:00:10.840 It's too late for us to be scared.

00:00:14.140 We have already wasted a lot of time.

00:00:17.980 What we should be really, really afraid of is these atrocities, these human rights violations

00:00:24.180 continuing, I think.

00:00:26.840 So what I think I would say is shift your fear.

00:00:30.000 like shift the source of your fear you can be afraid of more children dying and starving to

00:00:37.520 death or you can be afraid of your politicians it's shift your fear

00:00:44.800 hello i'm rachel gilmore your least favorite person's least favorite journalist welcome to

00:00:55.560 Bubble Pub, the show where we talk about some of the biggest headlines and juiciest news tidbits

00:01:00.920 so you don't have to doomscroll. I am really excited about today's guest. For those of you

00:01:07.120 who have followed my work for a while, you have already seen me report on her badass behavior.

00:01:12.440 Kahiso Lesejo Malope is an award-winning indigenous novelist and playwright from South Africa who

00:01:18.580 currently lives in Canada. She is an incredibly talented, accomplished writer. But on May 7th

00:01:25.200 last year she made headlines for another reason her bravery and the cowardice she encountered as

00:01:31.600 a result see kahiso stepped on stage at the politics and the pen gala a glitzy annual

00:01:38.320 fundraiser attended by some of the most powerful people in canada and she reminded this room full

00:01:44.480 of people with the power to do something about it that children are dying of malnutrition in gaza

00:01:50.960 at the time she spoke one in three children in northern gaza under two years of age were

00:01:56.640 suffering from acute malnutrition it's horrifying to see that things haven't improved and if

00:02:01.680 anything are more dire now a year later because israel has been blocking humanitarian aid from

00:02:08.240 entering gaza as kahiso bravely delivered her unscheduled remarks she asked this room full

00:02:14.400 of powerful people an incredibly important question take a listen time is coming

00:02:22.160 when the world starts to apologize for what is happening and when that time comes

00:02:28.400 we will be asked we are the people the world is going to look the world is going to look to us

00:02:38.880 response she was heckled including by a committee member for the event at the time

00:02:43.360 booed and ultimately after she returned to her seat she was kicked out of the event we need

00:02:49.440 more people like kahiso in these powerful rooms and way way fewer of the kinds of people who

00:02:55.840 kicked her out her bravery her compassion and her lived experience are just some of the reasons i

00:03:02.160 am so excited to have her on the show today kahiso welcome to bubble pop thank you thank you so much

00:03:09.600 i'm so excited to have you here um so we first met when you had been kicked out of an event

00:03:16.800 because you had the audacity to remind people with the power to do something about it yeah that

00:03:24.880 children are starving in gaza it's been a year since that happened how do you feel about that

00:03:31.200 day now looking back on it um you know i i wish that i had said more um i feel mostly that i you

00:03:45.760 know if given the chance i would say it again and again and again i was scared when i got uh kicked

00:03:54.880 out because you just had these like big burly men surrounding you and telling you what to do

00:03:59.920 way to go they wouldn't let me go out one exit or the other it was just really scary so that part

00:04:05.840 um i have to say like i still look back on that and feel like chills like oh my god i can't believe

00:04:11.520 that that happened and also their co-organizer of the event was like really really mad at me and

00:04:17.460 came out to like you know tell me like you just stood right next to me you didn't say anything

00:04:22.080 um he was very he was livid and then he told he told security like get her out of here you know

00:04:28.260 hurry her up and and then of course you and I know he went he later went on to claim that he

00:04:33.340 didn't know anything about me being kicked out even though he of course really kicked me out

00:04:37.940 but so I think about stuff like that and I think you know I'm somebody who really wants to feel

00:04:46.100 like as an as an artist you want to feel like you are being always aware of what's happening

00:04:53.500 um always participating in the actions that i needed to that i needed for your time right um

00:05:00.460 and i i'm so glad that i said that but i feel as well like yeah i feel chills like oh my god i

00:05:09.580 actually got kicked out like that was so scary but overall yeah i feel good about what i said

00:05:14.740 um i didn't i didn't you should yeah yeah overall i feel people keep saying to me um

00:05:21.280 you were so brave like weren't you scared and I'm like no we were already out of time

00:05:27.000 um we were seven months into the genocide we were already out of time the only thing I had to be

00:05:34.120 scared of was that the famine was going to continue was that the killings were going to continue

00:05:39.140 like that's what I was scared of I wasn't scared of the people in the room it's just like was like

00:05:44.160 it wasn't even interesting to me who was like who exactly was in the room you know yeah they later

00:05:49.820 found out that like um you know some i think my mark somebody told me that mark carney might have

00:05:56.220 been in the room i don't know it wouldn't surprise me yeah yeah because the person said i think you

00:06:02.220 know the next leader of the liberal party was in the room and um but i i didn't think about that

00:06:07.740 all i was thinking was yo kids are dying of malnutrition we're sitting here it just i was i

00:06:13.820 felt more and more agitated as i like because you arrived an hour before i felt angrier and angrier

00:06:20.380 just like walking around and seeing the food and seeing that you know everyone's so jolly

00:06:27.980 and networking and i thought seven months into this and yeah so i when i went up i thought you

00:06:35.260 know i'm gonna talk about it and then i'm gonna get off stage and people are gonna say you know

00:06:38.860 i'm gonna sit at my table and you know we're gonna start talking like people are gonna talk

00:06:43.820 and it's gonna you know bring it into the room bring the moment into the room yeah that's not

00:06:49.180 what happened obviously yeah i yeah how did you feel when like the first boos and heckles started

00:06:57.500 hitting like how did you feel in that moment when that was the response from these people who were

00:07:02.460 having these like in this expensive room with these fancy meals yeah we're booing you talking

00:07:08.300 about malnutrition in gaza mad drunk like they were drunk out of their minds really oh my god 0.90

00:07:14.580 that's just so yeah they were like they were crazy drunk um one reporter told me after he

00:07:20.740 investigated he was like well he was actually in the room and he was like oh my god so many of them

00:07:24.920 were just crazy drunk because people do that they go to this event and they get crazy drunk before

00:07:29.020 the event starts there's a lot of food a lot of booze yeah um when the booze came i i felt

00:07:36.840 um i felt like myself i felt like i'm a township chick like i can handle a few boos i can i can

00:07:49.520 handle this i've lived through so much worse than people booing me you know and so i think there was

00:07:56.340 that part of me that like south african like freedom fighter parents part of me was coming

00:08:02.760 out the more they booed the more i was like i actually have something to say and i'm not leaving

00:08:07.080 until i say something so i didn't feel i didn't feel worried at all i just felt like i was meeting

00:08:12.360 them like face to face yeah yeah and you know i i started to ask you this before we started recording

00:08:19.120 and i was like oh my god i need to ask you this for the actual like podcast but you know did you

00:08:25.340 go in because you you worded so much of this like perfectly like asking that integral question like

00:08:34.200 what did you do with your power you will be asked that um that was incredible like it's just so

00:08:40.560 obvious you're a writer you know but i um i wanted to ask you like did you plan that or like how much

00:08:49.840 of that did you just come up with on the spot yeah I actually when I got that email inviting

00:08:58.200 me to the event I thought I actually what I'm going to do is I'm going to refuse the invitation

00:09:04.320 I'm going to write them an email and say thank you for inviting me but I am not going to come

00:09:09.380 because of who is hosting the event but also I'm surprised that we're having this event in the

00:09:14.220 middle of a genocide and then I thought you know I had a friend who kept saying to me you should

00:09:19.360 come and I was like I don't think I'm gonna go and she was like come I'll be your date

00:09:23.200 so finally I was like you know never resist a good opportunity to get dressed up

00:09:30.100 and you looked great that girl I'm like girl just get dressed up and then go and then have those

00:09:40.760 discussions you know at the table and talk to people you know and then I went um and I also

00:09:46.840 naively thought this these discussions are going to be happening and you're going to be missing out

00:09:51.260 so i went but i was saying i was sitting on the terrace and i was like oh my god this is

00:09:56.840 this is just absolutely abominable this should not be happening and then i thought of a few

00:10:02.120 things and the thing is i actually you know i had the numbers in my head like how many deaths so far

00:10:08.340 how many because i was gonna write that email of these are how since you know like this is how many

00:10:13.800 people have died this is how much children are starving this is you know where the war is right

00:10:18.660 now um so that's all I had and then I was like girl like you can actually speak to these people

00:10:25.360 directly if you speak to only the people at your table what good is that gonna do so I went on the

00:10:30.220 stage and I and I said and I was and I was sitting there going like when we were out on the terrace

00:10:35.320 I was like I'm gonna say something I'm gonna say something and I'm not you know I'm not I'm not

00:10:40.320 telling anybody that i'm gonna say it because i think they'll block me or something you know

00:10:44.020 so i went up and i only knew that i was gonna say the numbers and say the numbers and say

00:10:50.560 i hope you enjoy your meal but this is you know there's a famine happening like this is what's

00:10:55.780 happening and thank you for having me on stage but you know they they brought a fight they're

00:11:01.920 the people who like started like they started a fight with their booing they called me a nazi

00:11:07.300 and I you know they were just disgusting like they were mean yeah and and I thought we're so

00:11:16.940 you know this is a room full of power and that's what you're doing and that's when I said like

00:11:23.580 we're gonna be asked what we did at this time like this is this is a question that's coming our way

00:11:28.780 and this was my like that's when that came out I did not have that line like before but it's

00:11:34.560 always in my head like we're the world is gonna ask us what we did at this moment in history

00:11:42.160 because the world is asking germany what they did in that moment they're asking people you know i

00:11:47.820 i've had holocaust survivors in my life who were very close to me who kept saying you know where

00:11:54.440 were our neighbors and what was everybody doing and i think everybody asked this question about

00:11:59.780 every place like rwanda you know everybody asked what were the neighbors doing the people who

00:12:06.820 the government was protecting right and um you know post apartheid south africa all these white

00:12:14.580 south africans started saying oh you know we did this and we fought and blah blah blah blah and

00:12:21.380 i've always had that question in mind like when this ends when these events end end and we've

00:12:28.420 been part of them the one question that keeps coming up i'm and i'm surprised partly that my

00:12:35.220 statement was that you know i mean i know it's powerful but that it was that surprising because

00:12:41.620 that's all we ever do after these atrocities is ask what was everybody else what were they doing

00:12:47.780 and then i realized like my god these are exactly the people who need this question but yeah that

00:12:54.020 that was the only part of the speech that was not planned is me asking like what are we gonna do

00:12:58.900 with the power we have you know yeah yeah and it's and it's interesting that like in a way

00:13:06.020 you had an immediate moment of an answer i mean to what the neighbors did because in that moment

00:13:13.220 you were a person speaking out and people were either heckling you or silent like was there any

00:13:18.660 solidarity in that room that you sensed or was it i i think i heard there was a few people who kind

00:13:24.420 of cheered was that is that correct when i at the very end when i said that part the people who

00:13:31.380 cheered um but when i got off the stage um um one of the people who was whose book was shortlisted

00:13:41.540 uh astra astra taylor astra taylor when i walked yeah walked off stage she stood up and she came

00:13:50.420 to me and she like shook my hand like really hard and was like thank you thank you thank you so much

00:13:54.900 thank you for saying something um and i met her a year late not a year later a few months later

00:14:01.060 at us we were doing cbc ideas last year and she she then i can that because i i was so frazzled

00:14:08.740 then i like yeah she was like i was the person who said i was like yeah

00:14:14.100 and then she said i was gonna say something if my book won but she was like but then i didn't get to

00:14:19.220 so um she was the one person who i went back to my table and i started to sit down and everybody

00:14:26.340 at my table was glaring at me they were so angry and then i was told to get up because you talked

00:14:35.300 about children suffering from malnutrition i just it's so galling i was that's how you were treated

00:14:41.940 yeah i was ruining their meal that's really oh my god yeah yeah and sorry you were gonna say and

00:14:48.580 then uh well and then i was i was asked to get my things and leave and and i was like oh for

00:14:55.860 for like a split second i was like oh am i getting moved from these people because they're angry and

00:15:00.820 being moved to a different table oh my god yeah and no one no one stepped in to stop that

00:15:09.940 not a single person um adrian hairwood who is a friend of mine um he met me outside it was really

00:15:21.060 kind of a mess like you know there was so many people around me um the people not the guests

00:15:26.660 but you know there was him and he kept asking security who has um who has made this this this

00:15:34.820 request or this decision like who is demanding that she leave and they kept saying it's private

00:15:39.940 so it's a private it's a private matter it's a private matter so they wouldn't answer him yeah

00:15:46.420 yeah but he gave me the most support that night yeah i'm glad you got some support because it's

00:15:53.620 It's I think that that was one of the things that struck me the most beyond just like the badassery of your actions was was looking in this room full, full of like our most powerful people, full of the people who shape our conversations, whether it be through journalism, through art, through politics.

00:16:16.100 the fact that so many of them were such cowards in the face of injustice and I think that that

00:16:22.500 explains a lot about our world that and none of it's pretty so I'm glad that there were little

00:16:27.380 rays of light in that darkness yeah I mean that that's what kept I kept being struck by that when

00:16:34.180 I was leaving and I think I said to the reporter from the Hill Times like I just said that children

00:16:39.160 were starving and and these people are upset with me because I said children were starving like I

00:16:45.160 i honestly in my heart did not understand that that could be a controversial thing to say

00:16:53.100 yeah that there is starvation like i didn't i i i'm very radical okay so i there are things that

00:17:01.960 i could have said yeah that i could have said about what's actually happening i could have

00:17:08.360 talked about that i could have talked about all kinds of things about people you know how this is

00:17:13.080 not uh a new thing that's happening to palestinians i could have said that but i didn't i

00:17:17.720 actually even went to the extent of saying how many israelis have died you know it's like i and

00:17:23.240 i said to them i'm actually combining the number i'm telling you how many israelis and palestinians

00:17:27.880 are dying combination income you know combined yeah i don't know yeah it didn't make a difference

00:17:34.840 to them it's and i think that that's sort of one of the hardest parts to swallow right um and i

00:17:41.000 did want to ask you in light of that i mean i you know today in gaza it's a year later

00:17:47.960 the atrocities have just kept piling up the genocide is just carrying on um israel has been

00:17:55.560 depriving gaza of humanitarian aid which as i understand it is a war crime so you know um

00:18:03.640 and it's starting to trickle in now as of like the last 24 hours but barely and it's not enough and

00:18:09.560 I guess I just wanted to ask you, if you were standing on that stage again today in front of that group of people who you asked, you know, what will you do effectively?

00:18:22.160 What will you have done with your power?

00:18:23.900 Like, what would you say to that room of politicians, journalists, all of these people, if you had that microphone today?

00:18:31.700 Today, I would say this is on us.

00:18:34.120 It's on this room.

00:18:35.860 it's on everybody in this room because we knew what was happening and we had time to stop it and

00:18:42.060 we didn't we just kicked back with our friends and did what we generally do the thing that I asked

00:18:47.880 in um in May last year was you know we need to think about how we hold our power right that was

00:18:58.900 the first thing I said I think that gets it gets sort of cut off in the clip that you get online

00:19:03.440 I said, we need to think about how, I said, we, I said, we're some of the most brilliant minds in

00:19:09.940 this country. And that means us gathering in here, in one room, maybe I'll, I'll, I'll show that at

00:19:17.080 some point. But I said, that means us gathering here in one room makes this one of the most

00:19:20.780 powerful rooms in all of Canada. And then I said, what you see me saying, we need to think about how

00:19:26.760 we hold our power and I think I would go if I had to talk to them today I would say this is on us

00:19:33.120 we participated in this we were complicit we didn't act when we had time to act by the time 0.75

00:19:40.680 I was speaking it was May of 2024 the South Africans had gone to the international criminal

00:19:47.340 international court of justice right like that was in January it was January 11th I know because

00:19:55.260 it was a day before my birthday. It was January 11th that I stayed up. It was like 2 a.m. my time

00:20:03.380 or something to listen to the entire statement. And one of the things they said was that there

00:20:08.140 is famine in Gaza. They said that on January 11th. By the time I spoke, it was May 7th, okay?

00:20:18.180 today we're talking about just like what 24 hours 48 hours ago we were told oh you know 14,000

00:20:28.000 babies are at risk of starving um in the next 48 hours well okay but thousands of babies were

00:20:38.780 starving all the way back to when the genocide started the thing that's happening in north

00:20:44.080 america that i find incredibly frustrating is we're putting out all these statements about who

00:20:49.420 is dying and how many and this as if it's this like suddenly urgent thing that's happening

00:20:54.720 but we knew this is what i want to stress we knew it is on us what has happened from from october

00:21:05.620 seventh to now it's on us we don't get to look around and blame whoever we choose to blame we

00:21:15.100 don't get to blame hamas we don't get to play blame israel we don't get to blame anybody but

00:21:20.240 ourselves it's on us we did this we don't like to think what we did but we did this everybody in

00:21:28.940 that room was complicit we did this yeah you're completely right it's honestly one of the biggest

00:21:39.260 moral failures of humanity that i've witnessed in my lifetime and i think we all find ourselves

00:21:49.000 asking ourselves individually like i don't know i it feels like you're screaming into the void

00:21:56.440 when you're begging the people with more power to do something and in a way we all have some power

00:22:01.520 yeah and it's just yeah it's hard and I I yeah I actually I was going to save this question for

00:22:10.160 the end but I might ask you this now because we're on the topic um you know I think that a lot of

00:22:16.440 people listening to this might ask themselves right like what am I doing with my power and

00:22:25.640 you showed us an example of how to use your power in that moment stepping up on stage and forcing

00:22:32.340 those people to recognize the moment yeah um what advice do you have for people on how they can use

00:22:41.740 their power and how to recognize the power they have yeah i you know there's a statement and i

00:22:47.320 have this like up on my instagram that says we like to ask what would i have done during apartheid

00:22:53.600 What would I have done during the Holocaust?

00:22:55.260 What would I have done during all these, you know, like hideous, heinous historical events? 0.86

00:23:03.740 What would we have done?

00:23:04.880 We like to ask ourselves, you know, what would I have done?

00:23:07.820 The answer is you're doing it now.

00:23:10.600 I think that we, and I include everybody, all of us, you know, we, outside of war zones,

00:23:19.220 we like to look at atrocities and and decide that this has nothing to do with us right oh it's

00:23:28.120 happening in Palestine oh that's so sad it has nothing to do with me or it's happening in another

00:23:33.940 country whatever but I think that we need to start thinking of ourselves as architects of our own

00:23:40.640 world we need to start thinking of ourselves as having a stake not only having a stake but

00:23:46.260 being responsible for what is happening so you can't just sit and talk about it everybody everybody

00:23:52.000 has um an obligation to do something something as simple as you know let's say you think well

00:23:58.600 i'm not a i'm not an author i'm not a journalist i'm not this you know what could i possibly do

00:24:04.020 well we're giving you some information right we're getting we're telling you who to boycott

00:24:09.460 we're telling you who's sending arms to you know everybody has a different role our role as writers

00:24:14.760 and journalists is to tell you what you know what we are seeing give you the facts and you can say

00:24:20.440 to yourself it could be something as very very simple as don't put your book up for um for

00:24:28.840 consideration for a prize whose money invests is is invested in arms in israel like those things

00:24:38.200 are not huge but if enough of us do them then we can say at the end of the day we did something now

00:24:46.920 that's what i did with my power i stopped buying at indigo because i have read about what indigo's

00:24:52.040 money you know what they do with their money how they support you know so think about who's

00:24:57.960 gathering information if you're not in the business of gathering information find out what

00:25:02.280 the information is and find out what your part in that can be yeah that's great advice um do you

00:25:10.360 think that the answer to your question of what they did with their power for the people in that

00:25:17.400 room for those powerful people do you think they have a better answer today than they did a year ago

00:25:22.760 you know uh Omar El Akkad has written this book everyone one day everyone will have always been

00:25:32.780 against this I think what if I I would say that if you were to ask right now that they would say

00:25:40.300 you know we were always opposed like we were opposed to this and sometimes that's as much

00:25:45.500 people can tell and that's what we've heard from apartheid from you know holocaust the holocaust

00:25:53.140 survivors we we keep hearing people saying we were against this and i think if i were to ask

00:26:00.120 the question right now if i were to say you know what did you do they'd say we were always against

00:26:04.720 this because people sometimes believe that just saying they were against it just you know just

00:26:12.300 feeling against it is enough and it's not it'll never be it'll never be enough so I think that

00:26:19.000 no they wouldn't say that they did anything but I think they would say that they were against it

00:26:23.560 and that and then they will ask us to feel almost like that was enough you know yeah and I think

00:26:30.980 that's where our power comes in and not accepting that response right yeah absolutely yeah so um

00:26:39.540 i'm gonna pivot a little bit now because um i wanted to talk about something else because you're

00:26:45.220 you're kind of the perfect guest this week um because in addition to the moral courage that

00:26:50.500 you've shown on gaza you're also from south africa which makes you really well placed to break down

00:26:57.620 another massive story from this week um as i'm sure you're aware donald trump forced south

00:27:04.900 african president cyril ramiposa to sit through a tirade of about white genocide in south africa

00:27:16.020 the first thing i want to ask you like were you shocked to see this misinformation in the oval

00:27:21.380 office no because that's all they do is give misinformation you know i watched anything

00:27:27.940 about the white house and i was like oh my god i cannot watch this i remember there was a press

00:27:32.020 conference where um someone from the oval office some someone france people said this was always

00:27:40.020 called the gulf of america it was never called the gulf of mexico and so i was like wow so that is the 0.97

00:27:46.260 level of stupidity and misinformation we're dealing with so when you've seen something like that 0.98

00:27:53.460 you're not surprised at watching trump behave the way that he did yesterday and we you have an 0.99

00:28:00.580 african president i don't think that we have ever witnessed um you know an american president

00:28:10.260 treat an african president with any amount of respect you know yeah yeah yeah so just before

00:28:17.620 we dive in more i i do want to just give some facts to the audience who might not be super

00:28:23.060 familiar with this baseless conspiracy theory um so i i i'll just quickly give you guys the facts

00:28:30.660 to debunk this um so from april 1st to um april 1st 2022 to march 31st 2023 there were 51 murders on

00:28:42.740 farms in south africa this is the the big thing that that these guys are freaking out about is

00:28:47.620 these farm murders. And they say that it's like white people being targeted. But that is actually,

00:28:54.620 and they use this as evidence of a white genocide, they use that word. But that is a tiny percentage

00:29:01.240 of the total of 27,494 murders in that period, according to numbers from the South African

00:29:10.560 police service, the race of these farm victims isn't consistently recorded. So that's according

00:29:18.100 to a fact check from PBS. And the majority of murder victims in South Africa nationwide are

00:29:24.500 poor, under or unemployed, young black males. This is obviously an incredibly sad thing that 0.58

00:29:33.860 these murders are happening at all to anyone. But it's also not a white genocide. Kahiso,

00:29:41.000 you were a teenager in South Africa in the dying days of apartheid. How does it feel? How did you

00:29:47.680 feel seeing these like false and frankly, white supremacist claims about your country being said

00:29:54.900 in the oval office you know i to be honest i don't get worked up about it i have always known

00:30:09.500 we have all always known that some lives matter more than others in north america and in other

00:30:16.360 parts of the world um so i know that there's not a genocide i know that i grew up in a time where

00:30:24.600 the most armed people were the government and farmers because people who know they've stolen

00:30:33.080 land arm themselves against people whose land they've stolen that's what they do 0.98

00:30:40.360 there was there were few people more terrifying than africana farmers when i was growing up 0.98

00:30:46.440 they would shoot to kill and so i am not surprised that this is happening right now i was watching 0.96

00:30:56.200 trump yesterday and i don't know if anybody really even understood what how horrifying his 0.98

00:31:07.800 accusations were because he kept saying white people there are white people you are killing 0.98

00:31:13.960 white people he kept saying all the time he never said you were killing south africans 0.98

00:31:19.560 he never said you were killing he didn't he wasn't even saying you're killing africaners 0.95

00:31:24.120 he kept saying white white white right this is a government who is arming that israeli army and 0.77

00:31:34.440 watching them and encouraging them really to destroy you know anything and everything that 0.95

00:31:41.640 is Palestine and ethnically cleansed and all he kept saying about South Africa was white people.

00:31:49.560 The president of South Africa Cyril Ramaphosa actually told him you know there is criminality

00:31:56.120 in the country there are lots of people who are being killed there's this and this happening

00:31:59.880 but he didn't care he just kept saying there's white people and I think to me that was really

00:32:04.040 the central message of that this that it was not a discussion of that encounter in the Oval Office

00:32:11.080 was they were saying what it was like white lives matter white lives matter and white lives matter

00:32:17.720 more is what he was saying too which is yeah so it's it's vile to see that level of white supremacy

00:32:26.600 on display like in those halls of power i mean maybe it's a bit honest for once um but

00:32:34.280 it's disturbing it's really disturbing it's the level of white supremacy i grew up with

00:32:39.240 so to me it's very very much like you're watching two uh two of you know the same people come

00:32:46.760 together that's what that meeting looked like to me was you know what what that's what this whole

00:32:53.080 genocide in south africa thing has been it's just they're bros you know they're supporting each other

00:32:59.640 this is if you look at the history of settler colonialism in the entire world you can literally

00:33:06.600 draw the connections you can see what canada did for apartheid south africa you can see what america

00:33:13.560 did for apartheid south africa you can see what apartheid south africa did for israel what israel

00:33:19.480 so but i never look at this and be shocked because there is settler colonialism happening

00:33:27.720 all over the world and they will at all times support each other because it's the same project

00:33:33.240 right yeah something that really uh struck me um i was reading tanikisi coates the message last week

00:33:40.280 and i'm not overly familiar with south african history so i wasn't aware of this politician

00:33:45.800 um and former prime minister now uh vorster who he during i'm not telling you anything

00:33:53.160 probably that you don't already know but for the audience's sake yeah it just blew my mind

00:33:59.480 and it's such a pure expression of how colonialism and support for colonialism trumps all right

00:34:06.160 um because vorster wanted south africa to intervene during world war ii on the side of

00:34:13.840 nazi germany yeah and then he became prime minister later and was invited to israel

00:34:20.880 to go to the jerusalem site for holocaust memorial and i just think that is so egregious

00:34:30.620 that their mutual support for colonialism was more important than the fact that this dude

00:34:38.400 was clearly an anti-semite like i just it's horrifying so but i don't know right you read

00:34:46.420 what he said when he was in in jerusalem right about how israel and south africa have the same

00:34:53.020 problem about how israel and south africa are surrounded by dark people right and they're in

00:34:59.080 danger they in equal or similar danger and and this is the thing is this is what the fear is this

00:35:10.200 is this is these are the origins of you know the south african army called being called like the

00:35:18.840 defense force right the south african defense force and then you have the israeli defense force

00:35:24.260 there it's all rooted in deep racism and in land theft they know they've stolen land as i said in

00:35:31.400 the beginning they know they've stolen land so they need to constantly be defending the land

00:35:36.220 against the people of the land yeah i i'm curious about how these racist spaceless conspiracies

00:35:46.860 being spouted in the oval office will reverberate like these lies will reverberate in south africa

00:35:55.900 like how are these claims going to impact communities there so i think what is going

00:36:02.860 to impact communities is is america um withdrawing um aid from south africa i think that is

00:36:10.460 impact generally no south african would even for a second to be worried about what's happening what

00:36:18.140 trump said i mean it was a joke we're all talking about it yesterday with my family with friends

00:36:23.260 like this is so silly really yeah it's silly it's not even like it's not we don't feel like it's it's

00:36:29.500 so horrifying at this point we're just like we know they know they have land they know that

00:36:36.100 they're not being killed in large numbers and they also know and they also know and they are not

00:36:44.840 saying this to the world because they know if they said this to the world the world would turn around

00:36:49.500 and be like wait hold on so what do you mean genocide they are not saying to the world that

00:36:53.320 they have their own town. They have a town that is a whites only town that is protected by them 0.51

00:37:01.540 that is an armed town. It's an Afrikaner town called Orania in South Africa. Okay so let's 0.83

00:37:09.380 talk about how you're all getting killed when you have a whites only town. Where else in the world 1.00

00:37:16.040 is there a whites only town that the government I mean I think I always say we always say like 0.78

00:37:23.240 why is the government putting up with this how can they have their own town but they have their 0.99

00:37:27.960 own town because they cannot live amongst us and they have their own town mainly and you will see 0.76

00:37:34.360 if you look at videos they say is to protect africana culture so i don't well i mean i don't

00:37:42.920 know if this answers your question but they're just we're not concerned about being seen as you

00:37:48.760 know killers because that's always the story about your killers so this is nothing new you know yeah

00:37:55.720 and i guess it's a really good point that you made about the very real impact of the usaid cuts i mean

00:38:01.880 i know that's something the the impact of aids is something that you felt um you've you've lost

00:38:07.880 friends and uh i i i understand it's something you've worked through in some of your writing

00:38:13.880 um and i i guess maybe that is the more important question that i i didn't write down here today

00:38:21.960 because i wanted to talk about this um this conversation in the oval office but really

00:38:27.000 it seems like other actions from the trump administration are far more impactful on south

00:38:33.560 africans i don't know if you want to speak to that a little bit far more impactful far more impactful

00:38:38.920 um you know medication for HIV we're not gonna have uh money for that because the Trump

00:38:46.600 administration has done so much to you know withdraw aid and I think really one thing that

00:38:54.260 I can say about what was happening in the Oval Office was that President Ramaphosa was saying

00:39:00.960 I mean I think he showed up at all because he knows how devastating removal of aid is going to be

00:39:14.760 or is already it already is on communities in South Africa you know he was trying to reason

00:39:23.420 with Trump not because he was there to defend the the claims that there's a genocide he was

00:39:30.720 there because he wanted Trump to talk about withdrawing aid he was he kept saying he he said

00:39:38.660 you know he said there it was so I think it was just so like dehumanizing the way he was being

00:39:45.760 treated right and I and but he I I feel like what I really want to stress is that the man

00:39:52.540 President Ramaphosa was calm and measured not only because he is a calm and measured leader

00:39:59.400 but because he knows what's at stake if he completely or if if if the relationship between

00:40:08.880 South Africa and and United States continues to deteriorate so he wasn't there to argue about

00:40:16.020 Afrikaner genocide he was there to basically plead with America to keep aid because it is going to

00:40:27.020 devastate a very large you know very large percentage of the community yeah there's something

00:40:34.860 that that's just it really puts it into perspective how egregious trump's behavior

00:40:40.000 really was when you consider the fact that like the president was only there to try to

00:40:47.260 mitigate harm and he was put through this humiliating mistreatment and that's just

00:40:53.360 it's so depraved it's it's really awful is there is there anything that you want people to know

00:41:01.740 about South Africa um given all the lies that are circulating right now I just I kind of want to

00:41:07.320 give you the opportunity I'm sure that there's probably a million different things going through

00:41:10.600 your mind right now but is there anything specifically that you you want people to

00:41:15.220 understand about your country um about your home town um yeah so uh south africa

00:41:23.800 has been out of apartheid since 1994 the first democratic elections

00:41:31.740 um apartheid uh was sworn into law in 1948 you know which is the same time the same year that

00:41:41.180 israel was born not a coincidence yeah the nakba yeah so what has happened

00:41:50.700 what happened during apartheid and what is still happening is that

00:41:59.260 we are what like 80 percent like 20 of the population what the white population owned

00:42:05.820 80 percent of the land um if you think about all the issues that come with land you know all the

00:42:13.740 all the ways in which south africa has been devastated by apartheid you understand that

00:42:20.940 there is no way that when the democratic elections happened that any kind of justice was done in terms

00:42:29.900 of land we still mostly don't own land what has also happened is that the generation the post

00:42:37.100 apartheid generation moved from idolizing our leaders to questioning what exactly they had done

00:42:45.340 during the transition from apartheid to to freedom to democracy what did you do so that our future

00:42:52.060 can be ensured what did you do so that we can you know be safe and have food and you know what did

00:42:58.540 you do for our livelihood and one of the biggest things that has has happened is that well what

00:43:04.780 came out of that all of the questioning is um the land back movement which is there's a land back

00:43:11.740 movement here there's a land back movement in all settler settler colonial states right

00:43:17.820 what is happening with africanus these laws that trump was saying last night you know you you know

00:43:23.980 I mean, he really opposed the equality laws, right?

00:43:28.980 So he said something to President Ramaphosa about that.

00:43:32.980 What are these laws and these laws needs to change.

00:43:35.980 What he's saying is you need to prevent the possibility 1.00

00:43:39.980 that black people are ever going to own land. 0.99

00:43:42.980 You need to keep the land in the hands of the white people. 1.00

00:43:46.980 This has been the biggest, biggest, biggest struggle, 1.00

00:43:49.980 is that we don't have land.

00:43:51.980 land we had our land stolen you don't have land and when you don't have land you don't really

00:43:56.760 have much of a um much protection in you know in your own country so this is what the whole

00:44:03.840 african uh you know genocide thing is is fueled by the it's fueled by knowing that the land needs 0.58

00:44:14.780 to be returned to people the land needs to be redistributed redistributed you get someone like 0.53

00:44:20.520 Elon Musk who you know says that there is a genocide what Elon Musk understands is that his

00:44:27.300 family probably still has a stake in where the land goes in South Africa he knows that

00:44:33.660 if if black people actually do get what they're asking for then a lot of white people are going

00:44:43.760 to be very very very unhappy and they imagine disadvantaged disadvantaged and that's just not

00:44:49.860 truth yeah so anytime you hear um the other thing that's happened in south africa is a lot of people

00:44:56.340 have started a lot of white people are insisting and there's a whole movement where they want to

00:45:00.580 be called african and you need to understand what i would like the world to understand is that

00:45:06.980 whenever people are talking about um white people being called african or white people being killed

00:45:14.820 or all of that all that is is a response to the land back movement so i think that that needs to

00:45:22.900 be at the top of everybody's head like you need to ask well what is happening with land why are

00:45:29.300 apartheid laws still you know supporting the white population which is only like 20 of the population

00:45:37.540 why are all those still working for them and yeah why do they have a town they have land 0.88

00:45:44.820 That's what they have. And this is all in response to us saying we want the land back.

00:45:51.820 It's a really helpful framework for understanding the issues coming out of South Africa, particularly for those of us who don't have a huge understanding of the internal politics.

00:46:02.820 So it's really helpful to have that baseline to root it back in, that it's a resistance to returning land at the end of the day.

00:46:13.820 day um yeah i you know i think that one thing i'm really valuing in this conversation is because

00:46:21.180 you're a writer you're you you do a really good job of just like taking ideas and just like wording

00:46:27.340 them in ways that are such your communicator like you're wording things in a way that like

00:46:33.100 just makes sense right and um one thing that you said of writing um is and i'm gonna quote you here

00:46:40.300 so i'm sorry if i'm making you shy but you said of writing um that quote you carry stories inside

00:46:47.580 for so long it's very important to get them out it's a big release and i i wanted to just before

00:46:55.420 we wrap things up ask you about that because the world feels like it's getting crueler these days

00:47:02.860 and i think that makes telling these stories that we carry more important than ever what

00:47:09.500 is the role and responsibility of writers and the people consuming writing in this time that we're

00:47:17.420 living through i think we need to be fully engaged with what's happening in our world i think that's

00:47:27.420 always the case for all artists um and journalists we need to be um informing right we need to always

00:47:36.540 been forming but i think for storytellers specifically we need to be recording what's

00:47:43.980 happening we need because storytelling is a way of recording what you know what the world is

00:47:50.540 experiencing in your time but i also think that storytelling is a map so we need to be drawing a

00:47:58.460 map um of where we come from where we are and where we're potentially going so that future

00:48:06.140 generations can then trace back their, you know, the roots of what, you know, what the world has

00:48:11.660 been. And we need to always, I'm very, I became very interested in maps, if you, you know, even

00:48:19.600 when I was a child, but maps really tell us what our world is and what it looks like. And you, you,

00:48:27.760 you get to, when you, when you read maps, to know who does and doesn't get to be written on a map,

00:48:34.800 right like there are you know you get you know get the city of ottawa for example you get the city of

00:48:43.520 you know vancouver or whatever but you don't get the reds right like you don't know where the

00:48:49.360 indigenous people live that's not on the canadian map and i think the role of the storyteller

00:48:55.760 is to give a full picture of the map and you get to say yes there was a genocide but you also have

00:49:03.360 to say and then there were these powerful people who didn't do anything about it and then give a

00:49:09.280 full picture of the map instead of you know because because people are in danger of being erased

00:49:17.360 of maps and i think so i think that's the rule of storytelling at this point yeah that's very good

00:49:25.520 um advice too for i think uh anyone reading those stories should make sure that they're also

00:49:32.240 prioritizing ensuring that the stories that they're informing themselves with

00:49:37.440 provide a fuller picture of that map right yeah um so kahisa i think that's basically everything

00:49:45.280 i wanted to ask you you've been so generous with your time um but before i wrap things up is there

00:49:51.520 anything that you wanted to say about the topics that we touched on today or anything else that

00:49:56.080 you didn't get the chance to say through the questions i just wanted to kind of give you the

00:49:59.920 floor if there's nothing that's fine too but just if there's anything you wanted to say i just want

00:50:04.000 to give you the floor yeah i think i really want um just for my part and what happened at politics

00:50:12.480 in the pen i think i really would like what i really would like people to take away from that

00:50:18.080 is that our voices are just as powerful as the people we put in power and people have to stop

00:50:25.440 saying that weren't you scared asking weren't you scared um it's too late for us to be scared

00:50:33.520 we have already wasted a lot of time what we should be really really afraid of is these

00:50:40.640 atrocities these human rights violations continuing i think so what i think i would say is shift your

00:50:48.240 fear like shift the source of your fear you can be afraid of more children dying and starving to death

00:50:56.880 or you can be afraid of your politicians it's shift your fear decide what what you know

00:51:06.480 decide what you're gonna be more afraid of yeah shift your fear that's you keep having these

00:51:15.000 little one-liners that just like i just sit with them and anyways it's just it's been such a great

00:51:20.500 conversation kahizo thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and taking this time um i'm sure

00:51:27.740 that people after listening to you will want to keep up with you so would you mind letting them

00:51:33.060 know where they can find you on social media or what they can read from you even if there's

00:51:39.500 anything you want to promote just you have the floor thank you so much rachel of course i really

00:51:44.880 had such a great conversation with you and you know thoughtful thoughtful questions lead to

00:51:51.360 thoughtful answers i think that's really kind thank you i really appreciate it um yeah so uh

00:52:00.340 all my books can be found in all bookstores and if you don't find the book and because they're

00:52:06.240 usually like a lower stock so if you don't find a book just ask your local bookseller um not indigo

00:52:14.220 yeah your local your local independent bookstore please ask them to order the books if you don't

00:52:22.760 have them and look out for my next novel which is coming out on my birthday

00:52:30.160 that's january right january yeah it's called we inherit the fire and it's about a woman who was

00:52:41.520 who is a former political prisoner in apartheid south africa and being a mother and struggling

00:52:48.280 with motherhood as a former prisoner and um and her child is growing up in a time when apartheid

00:52:55.520 ending so it's like her child is growing up at a time when the things that she fought for are now

00:53:01.160 being realized oh that sounds fantastic um and are you on any socials that you want people to

00:53:08.120 be able to follow you on or i'm really only on instagram so it's kahiso san uh it's at kahiso

00:53:16.980 so k-a-g-i-s-o-s-a-n yeah perfect and i will have that in the show notes for you guys too

00:53:24.440 so you can find all the links and everything okay so thank you again this was a total pleasure

00:53:30.040 um i really appreciate your time thank you rachel

00:53:33.320 thank you for listening to this episode of bubble pop i'm rachel gilmore your least favorite

00:53:44.180 person's least favorite journalist if you enjoyed this episode consider subscribing to bubble pop

00:53:49.060 on youtube patreon sub stack or wherever you like to listen you can also find me on tick tock

00:53:54.900 instagram twitch and blue sky i'd like to say a special thank you to hans vivian wenzel for

00:54:00.020 making the incredibly groovy music for bubble pop you can find more of his stuff on spotify

00:54:05.300 under the artist's name hans that's a lowercase h with an exclamation mark thanks again for spending

00:54:12.020 this time with me um i know i say this every week so you guys are probably sick of it by now but

00:54:16.500 i just i need to thank you every time because this is literally my dream job

00:54:22.500 and you make it possible. So thank you, and I'll see you next time.

Bubble Pop with Rachel Gilmore - May 23, 2025

What did you do with your power？ (with Kagiso Lesego Molope)

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