Culture Study Podcast - Is Divorce Actually Contagious？

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00:00:39.240 management advice so absolutely endorse well wait what was that movie that has like diane

00:00:46.780 keaton and everyone in it is it this the first wives club first wives club yeah right no i think

00:00:53.200 The professional ex-wife is more, I don't know, it's more alluring.

00:00:58.600 Yeah, definitely. 0.92

00:00:59.780 They were going to remake that movie, and I don't know what happened to the remake.

00:01:03.360 I don't know. 1.00

00:01:03.880 They don't like to make movies for women. 1.00

00:01:05.360 That's probably part of it, right? 1.00

00:01:06.700 That's true.

00:01:08.080 True. 1.00

00:01:08.400 But that would be like the Barbie movie, but for, like, boomer women, you know? 1.00

00:01:13.480 But they already have that, and it's like every Nancy Meyers movie. 1.00

00:01:16.440 no but like but like Nancy Myers who I love does not really shoot down the establishment

00:01:27.780 she's like no the establishment she's like I'll rock it a little but then Steve Martin's gonna

00:01:33.240 come in at the end and be the good guy like no he's not problematic on any sort of level

00:01:39.420 and the kitchen's gonna be nice and everybody's kind of wealthy it's like

00:01:44.140 it's all the problems are solved by wealth, which also ties into what we're going to talk about

00:01:50.240 today. Wealth and Steve Martin. That's all you need. I'm Anne Helen Peterson, and this is the

00:02:02.860 Culture Study Podcast. My name is Liz Lenz. I am an author and the writer behind the sub stack,

00:02:09.160 Men Yell at Me, and A Professional Ex-Wife. Tell me about your new book, which I actually

00:02:14.240 just finished. I want to hear your description of it. Yes. So my new book, This American Ex-Wife,

00:02:21.060 it's a memoir. It's also a lot of research, and it's about how divorce is great. I went through

00:02:29.480 a divorce in 2017 that was partially initiated by the the election of 2016 and you know I grew

00:02:39.840 up evangelical and had a lot of cultural scripts about marriage and what it meant what family

00:02:45.920 ought to be and I held tightly to those cultural scripts even after I left the church and left my

00:02:51.500 faith and and divorce really tossed me off of a cliff and I kind of felt like I had no other

00:02:57.140 option to lead a happy life except to do this thing and then when I did it and I got to the

00:03:03.260 other side I was like wait a minute that was great like that this whole idea that this narrow idea

00:03:09.940 of what I had about what life should be what love should be had really confined me in so many ways

00:03:17.700 and that breaking that apart burning that life to the ground really opened up my eyes to like

00:03:25.480 what domestic equality looks like, you know, like what a career and ambition actually looks like,

00:03:32.720 what motherhood can be. And so I wrote this book that is a full-throated argument for

00:03:39.160 getting divorced and burning your life to the ground. And it's also an argument for love and

00:03:46.060 relationships in a really surprising way. Yeah, that's the thing is that I think a very facile

00:03:51.940 reading of the book that will I am positive be wielded in your direction is like Liz hates men

00:04:01.540 and doesn't think that anyone should ever get married when instead actually it's a real you

00:04:07.720 know like the blurb that I wrote for the book I was like I think people should read this before

00:04:11.220 getting married yeah because it allows you to see the really I think pernicious ways that marriage

00:04:18.800 can decimate the individual like yes can hollow out your sense of self and all and like what you

00:04:25.480 value all of these different things if you're not careful because it is such a steamroller

00:04:29.640 of an ideological institution yeah and we sell this idea of like love can conquer all and then

00:04:37.320 you know you have especially we're talking specifically cishet marriages where like then

00:04:42.820 you get into the institution and you realize love can't conquer all like love can't conquer the fact

00:04:48.140 that he's not wiping the counter like love can't conquer that and so you know I really feel like

00:04:54.820 the book is about dropping the ropes and finding freedom we have a lot of like in our culture

00:05:00.460 unformed female rage with no place to go because we don't really want to break down the systems 1.00

00:05:07.360 and I'm saying break down the system because there is something better on the other side 0.98

00:05:12.460 And I do think a relationship that is good will be strong enough to handle a partner quitting a lot of things and reshaping what that relationship looks like. But it takes a serious renegotiation of the terms of your existence.

00:05:30.520 and I think there's a lot of like acceptance of like well I'm mad everything's unequal but I guess

00:05:36.380 that's just the way it has to be if I'm gonna be married to Kevin and it's like no you don't have

00:05:41.820 to like that is such that is a facile reading of the system that we've been given and I think

00:05:48.040 that's what traps us into these boxes and you know I say I say break it apart and see what survives

00:05:57.080 And that's a very scary thing, I think, especially for like white women of a certain income bracket, like because we so identify with the system and find security in the system that we're afraid to let go of that system.

00:06:12.400 right we see how it oppresses us we see how it oppresses other people even more but because it

00:06:18.480 like pays our mortgage we're not gonna burn it down and I think that that's wrong-headed because

00:06:25.160 I think you burn that house down and then what survives the flames is actually like this

00:06:31.020 beautiful life I everybody who reads the book is like oh this is a lot more hopeful than I thought

00:06:37.220 it would be and I'm like that's exactly the point and I remember talking to my editors and saying

00:06:42.200 like I want the divorce to be the beginning of the book not the end of the book and I want like

00:06:48.380 the happiness and I want the joy and I want this like new home that I've built to be the end of

00:06:55.780 the book because there is a happily ever after and I do think it is involves romantic love it

00:07:02.080 involves relationships but it also involves a serious renegotiation of like I said before the

00:07:10.740 the terms of your existence. So the theme of this podcast, this particular podcast

00:07:16.660 is contagious divorce, not just a contagious divorce, this idea, this discourse of divorce

00:07:24.600 as something that can run through a community. So to set us up for that conversation, I know that

00:07:30.640 your sister had gotten divorced a couple years before you, but had others in your community

00:07:37.480 gotten divorced not exactly I had an acquaintance like a mom friend from a mom group get divorced

00:07:45.340 oh you know what Lala I'm thinking about it yeah my two best friends had both gotten divorced

00:07:50.560 okay there it is yes and you know my friend Anna who I quote a lot in the book Anna had gotten

00:07:58.720 divorced I think a couple years before and you know her wisdom like really guided me through I

00:08:06.980 I mean, she was the one who was like, listen, I'm your friend for forever, but you keep

00:08:12.100 complaining about the same things over and over again.

00:08:16.180 And like, you've been doing this for a couple years now.

00:08:19.440 Like, are you going to change something?

00:08:22.700 You know, which is hard truth stuff that only certain friends can tell you.

00:08:26.820 But yes, both my friends.

00:08:28.060 And then another one of my dear friends had been in a horrifically abusive marriage many

00:08:32.440 years before and had gotten divorced.

00:08:34.440 so you know i think the inclination is sometimes like to think of it as a pathology right because

00:08:41.320 like an illness it spreads like and some people who get it and don't want it and they get in and

00:08:46.920 they regret it right instead of thinking of it though this is how we just see it from a feminist 0.96

00:08:53.260 lens is like yeah it's consciousness raising when one person gets divorced right it like 0.99

00:08:58.280 makes that life visible livable right it's like a representation of what life can be

00:09:04.780 but on the other hand and i think this is particularly true for people in the sociology

00:09:10.560 of marriage they call them blue divorces so people who are more liberal who weren't raised

00:09:14.740 in the church who got married older and who are bourgeois usually like upper middle class

00:09:20.080 is they see a divorce happen in their community and they see that that woman becomes destitute

00:09:26.700 right essentially destitute like they have to leave their home they have to

00:09:32.700 like they essentially destitute she has got a downsize from four bedrooms to two oh my god

00:09:41.400 but they see that and they're like i don't like even if i'm super annoyed and resent my husband

00:09:47.080 in all of these ways even if he devalues me in public and in private i'm not going to get

00:09:53.620 divorced because I value my financial and social security so much more than that so okay oh yeah

00:10:00.220 go where are you gonna go from there so I mean well I was not in a blue marriage I live in a red

00:10:05.560 state I was married to a republican but I was destitute after I I ended my marriage I was I was

00:10:14.980 I was really poor and I was really afraid um there were a lot of months when I was like begging

00:10:22.800 outlets to pay me so I could make rent, you know, and like really stressed out about how I was going

00:10:30.100 to buy my kids juice. And I lived that reality. But I remember there was something and I kind of

00:10:37.180 knew that it would happen. Right. I knew that I didn't have stable income because I hadn't been

00:10:42.860 allowed to have stable income because I was full time with my children and also trying to work and

00:10:50.820 I didn't have child care and the child care I had because my kids were very young was inconsistent

00:10:57.220 and so I hadn't been allowed to build that career that would be that safety net and I also live in

00:11:06.340 a state where there are not a lot of jobs that I can do not a lot of creative jobs and I've done

00:11:12.140 them all and that's it there are no more jobs in the state for me to do I literally had to make my

00:11:17.820 own job. And so in actually researching for this book, I was really looking at that dip,

00:11:23.780 that income dip. And actually, that's only half the story, right? The post-divorce poverty is

00:11:30.580 only half the story. What actually tends to happen is there's a five-year dip, and then

00:11:35.580 then the incomes start to go up. And why is that? Why is that? Maybe because women finally have a

00:11:44.300 chance to build their career because they're not parenting an adult male because actually 50 50

00:11:49.660 custody is like equality and you finally have some time to get psychic space and like build your

00:11:56.140 career I make more money than my ex now yeah because I've had that time and that space and 0.98

00:12:03.320 now that energy to build a career and so in researching this book I had a lot of women you 1.00

00:12:10.040 know come to me and kind of whisper like oh I would totally leave my husband but I don't want

00:12:15.300 to lose the house and I just like and and I understand it but that also deeply saddens me

00:12:21.700 that like you have more allegiance to a McMansion outside of DC than you do to yourself to yourself

00:12:30.900 and your own freedom and I think that that's the thing about divorce being contagious it's not a

00:12:36.940 is like happiness is contagious right like you see somebody get free and you realize it's better

00:12:43.540 than your you know shitty vinyl sighted home no offense to shitty vinyl sighted homes if that is

00:12:50.020 what you love yeah but like I would tell people this often I would I didn't grow up very wealthy 0.97

00:12:56.540 I'm one of eight kids we have a lot of money pretty you know boom bust money cycles and I

00:13:03.740 would tell people i'm like i know what it's like to be poor i'm not afraid of being poor what i've

00:13:10.140 never known is freedom yeah and i think that's the scary part that's the really scary part is that

00:13:17.800 we know how to ask for money we know how to get money but we don't know how to ask for freedom

00:13:22.660 and we don't know how to get it and take it and then what do we do when we have it this whole

00:13:28.440 discourse of contagious divorce as far as melody our producer and researcher extraordinaire can

00:13:34.860 ascertain it dates to 2010 at least that's like the first kind of percolations of it in the

00:13:41.200 discourse but then there was a big study in 2013 from brown university and researchers found that

00:13:47.360 participants were 75 percent more likely to become divorced if a friend is divorced and 33 percent

00:13:53.900 more likely to end their marriage if a friend of a friend is divorced so what happened after you

00:14:00.120 got divorced what did you see i hate the word contagion because we're talking about it like

00:14:04.880 it's a bad thing exactly i think it's great like and i think it's contagious because people see

00:14:11.700 that it's not so bad because we've created this whole cultural narrative like oh divorce it's so

00:14:17.080 bad it's so awful and then like when somebody gets divorced and like we see how happy they look and

00:14:22.300 were like oh okay I'm gonna try that like what's your divorce lawyer's uh number but the um but

00:14:29.680 what happened was I didn't talk about it for a very long time you know I had loyalty to my ex

00:14:37.520 and it was hard to discuss and and I didn't know how to frame it and so in in true writer fashion

00:14:44.360 I didn't talk about it until I wrote an essay about it for Glamour magazine so it was like

00:14:49.860 silence silence silence and then boom on the internet in front of everyone and then like

00:14:56.020 that's how a lot of uh people found out like a lot of people in that community and friends and

00:15:03.420 they were like we didn't know and i was like yeah i'm not gonna like update my facebook to be like 0.52

00:15:09.440 dumped his ass seriously but like i'm an adult although i do respect it when other people do

00:15:16.480 that because i love to gossip um but well like currently right now i'm trying to deduce like 0.99

00:15:22.720 people who i haven't talked to in a long time and it would be inappropriate for me to just

00:15:26.580 directly message and be like are you okay did you get divorced but there is definitely some of that

00:15:31.260 happening in my feed right now and you're right like you can't there's no like announcement in

00:15:37.980 the public sphere you know you know here's how you know if it's happened on instagram we're gonna go

00:15:43.080 on a little side quest here here's how you know if it's a man he's posting a lot of pictures like

00:15:49.780 bearded like bearded selfies in the woods or like pictures of him holding a drink by a fire

00:15:57.860 a fire pit and it's always like like moody music and it's like a lot of changes going on really

00:16:05.600 reconnecting with myself also the gym pictures like all of a sudden he's at the gym and for

00:16:11.480 women it's like a lot of like home like flowers and then like all of us and then if you go back

00:16:20.240 you know in their history like he's suddenly gone he's totally gone he's gone from all their

00:16:25.500 pictures and he was only appearing in like one or two like they've been married for 12 years

00:16:29.960 this is so funny because like i was like when i got divorced i was like looking at my instagram

00:16:35.340 because I have a private family Instagram and I was like looking at it my ex was like not in any

00:16:41.400 pictures and I was like I don't even have to delete you from here because like you never

00:16:46.100 cooperated with pictures anyway so you were never here which is I don't know maybe that's a thing

00:16:51.380 but the you know like and she's like she's always got like flowers and some like Audre Lorde quote

00:16:57.520 or something like that that's just like about changes and I love it I love the way people find

00:17:04.240 to themselves i think i know i'm mocking it but it's also like i think it's sweet and beautiful

00:17:08.680 and earnest well i also think that instagram allows people once it has become public in

00:17:13.740 whatever fashion it allows them to own the narrative in a way that like when my parents

00:17:18.140 got divorced a lot of people found out because there was a divorce notice in the newspaper right

00:17:24.160 like yeah because that's why like all the court notices are in the newspaper oh my god and so

00:17:30.040 like newspapers so people can hate the death of the newspaper except for that one component

00:17:38.100 well yes okay so i post this essay on glamour and it's called now that i'm divorced i'm never

00:17:46.760 cooking for a man again i totally stand by the title by the way people are always like i bet the

00:17:52.560 editor picked that to make it provocative and i was like yes she did and it's great and i stand

00:17:57.500 buy it but um but that so that came out and so I started hearing from a lot of women in my DMs

00:18:05.560 a lot of emails a lot of Instagram DMs a lot of Twitter DMs and they were all like how did you do

00:18:13.740 it how did you do it and I tried to reply to as many as possible with like as earnest and as

00:18:22.180 honest of an answer because I wanted to be honest I wanted to have honest dialogues and I in a way

00:18:28.580 that I felt like I hadn't seen and we do talk a lot about divorce but we talk so like we so

00:18:35.040 fetishize that poor destitute single mother and I really think it's a way of like putting a 0.98

00:18:40.720 cultural head on a pike where it's like yep don't you could be her don't be her she looks sad she 1.00

00:18:47.400 looks pathetic. And I wanted to be like, I feel better, happier than I ever have been. Like I did 1.00

00:18:54.900 everything right. I went to college, I found the right person, I found a good person, we were

00:19:01.260 financially stable. We lived in a small town in the Midwest, right? Like we went to church, we loved

00:19:07.600 our families. And it sucked. And it sucked. And that life was terrible. And I hated it. And I got 0.98

00:19:15.000 it and I worked hard for it and I struggled through it and it was awful. And so nobody told

00:19:22.180 me it would be bad. Everybody told me it would be great and it wasn't. And so I wanted to respond

00:19:27.300 to them with so much like empathy and compassion and say like, here's how I did it. I was very

00:19:33.520 honest about money. I had to create a secret bank account to get out. Like I had a loan from a

00:19:40.440 friend to pay my initial deposit for the lawyer um you know these were the real financial realities

00:19:48.340 and I try to be as honest and you know I have heard from quite a few of some of those women

00:19:55.560 so that was like 20 I think that came out in 2019 I forget and now that this book is getting ready

00:20:03.840 to come out I've had quite a few of those same women come back to my dms and be like hey I got

00:20:08.860 the divorce wow I'm out so I hope divorce is contagious like I hope it is contagious and

00:20:17.020 here's the other part of it like you know we're talking a lot about like personal lives and

00:20:21.940 feelings but you know there are studies that show that in countries that have liberal divorce laws

00:20:28.740 and so sorry America is not really one of them like our divorce laws are not liberal and divorces

00:20:34.740 it is easier for a 16 year old to get married in most states than it is for a 42 year old woman to

00:20:41.420 get divorced like that is just a fact so but there's very depending on the state there is very

00:20:47.700 little accountability for if you have been the primary caregiver and have put your career on

00:20:54.480 pause right so yes yes it's not great so all those republicans out there being like oh divorce

00:21:01.220 anybody treats marriage like fast food it's like one french fries are delicious and two like no we

00:21:07.560 don't because it's legally impossible but in countries that have liberal divorce laws here's 0.61

00:21:13.000 what happens women earn more marriages last longer and rates of domestic violence are lower

00:21:21.920 so we i mean we talk about it's like a social contagion but it's actually a social good because

00:21:28.860 when you set up a society where people are free to make their choices they make better choices

00:21:35.060 they don't make choices out of desperation and they're not trapped in bad situations and so

00:21:40.400 like you want marriages to last I want people to be in happy long-term relationships if that is

00:21:46.440 what they want I think there's also other ways of building life that we need to talk about like

00:21:50.540 you know queering our communities and like really kind of like breaking down why we think monogamy

00:21:57.620 is the only answer but that aside you know when you create a society where divorce is just as

00:22:06.060 accessible as marriage you create stronger marriages and women get hit less like that to me

00:22:12.200 is so upsetting that that's like that those are connected I mean I understand how they're

00:22:20.600 connected but I think that it's worth shouting over and over again yeah yeah I think sometimes

00:22:26.960 we lose sight of that in the like oh it's tearing at the like ideological fabric of our nation so

00:22:33.400 many divorces instead of like the ease of divorce means that there is less violence against women

00:22:40.160 and by extension I'm sure their families right like it doesn't it never stops just at the wife

00:22:45.260 and marriages last longer because they're not you're not being coerced into them by a lack

00:22:51.340 of a social safety net by you don't have insurance like or like the cultural narratives tell you that

00:22:59.020 you're not going to be fulfilled until you you know find a man and get a white dress like when

00:23:04.520 those things aren't present people are more likely to make better relationships and have more stable

00:23:11.640 relationships so you know like listen I've got no allegiance to the institution of marriage I think

00:23:19.480 it is like all institutions i think it's racist and i think we use it instead of a social safety

00:23:24.960 net and i think it's bringing us down however if your allegiance is there there's no reason you

00:23:30.920 shouldn't be for liberal divorce laws because study after study show that the more freely people

00:23:36.660 enter that institution with choice the better off they are all right so we have some questions from

00:23:43.960 listeners and readers about the idea of contagious divorce. Bradley defined, these are all over the

00:23:51.500 place. So this first question is from Jana. As someone who is literally going through ending a

00:23:58.400 marriage right now in a relatively tight-knit suburb, I can tell you that while I believe

00:24:03.540 divorce is contagious in some communities, it doesn't feel like it is in mine. I'm the only

00:24:09.500 one in my mom friend group who is getting or will be divorced. That's not saying everyone is happy

00:24:14.820 in their marriage, but they seem like they're in it for the long haul. My questions are, what are

00:24:19.960 the behaviors and demographic makeup of a contagious divorce community? Is it true that

00:24:25.740 higher income, higher educated communities, which I am and I'm a part of, are less likely to get

00:24:32.580 divorced? Or is it a life stage lifestyle thing? So I have some observations on this, but I want

00:24:38.940 to hear yours first Liz yeah I mean I think there's a couple of things right like yes it is

00:24:45.720 income-based right like couples who have higher education and earn more money are less likely to

00:24:54.400 get divorced not by much and also I also as a little caveat it's important to know that the

00:25:00.620 way we calculate divorce rates is like really haphazard and also also super inaccurate like I

00:25:06.920 literally was having a panic attack when i was like my book was getting edited because the editor

00:25:11.920 was asking like okay what is the divorce rate and i was like nobody knows nobody knows and i was like

00:25:17.940 oh my god i was like sweating because i didn't want to get like you know i didn't want to get

00:25:21.940 naomi wolfed i didn't want somebody to be like everything you've written is based on a lie um

00:25:27.700 so i like yeah you've read it i have like two pages were like two pages really here's how

00:25:34.800 complicated it is nobody knows so okay so a couple things like so I think it's important to

00:25:41.540 know that this is all fuzzy math yeah and uh the the one really fun part about calculating the

00:25:48.000 divorce rate is there's like the mean divorce rate and the gross divorce rate and it's also

00:25:52.240 because like states don't really keep track of this and they don't always report it back to

00:25:56.180 national statistic collection agencies and then you know like there's a lot of late in life

00:26:02.360 divorces happening now so how do you calculate that but um but like the the gross divorce rate

00:26:08.380 is just supposed to be like that raw daddle and then the mean divorce rate is basically

00:26:12.720 women reporting their divorces because they're they're more likely to be truthful about being

00:26:18.940 divorced than men which is just like a sociological fact that i find delightful 0.98

00:26:25.440 all yes god bless god bless us all but okay so keeping those like kind of that like idea that

00:26:35.120 it's all a little fuzzy yes like people who have money can get a nanny so they don't have to fight

00:26:41.440 over child care they can get a housekeeper so they don't have to fight over how kevin won't

00:26:45.880 wipe down the counters poor kevin is getting beat up on today but like uh you know it really

00:26:51.940 insulates you from a lot of those things that tear at the fabric it's easier to pay for a marriage

00:26:58.660 counselor i will say that it can feel a little lonely but just wait it's also like a life stage 1.00

00:27:05.620 thing too like people uh might be sticking it out for the kids or yeah i remember a lot of women

00:27:13.780 talking to me and telling me like the realities of their marriages because i was like the divorce

00:27:19.380 lady now right like it was safe to tell me and I just remember being like stop like I can't hear

00:27:26.140 about how bad your marriage is because you're never gonna leave and I'm not like you know I'm

00:27:31.180 not like your confessor now that I'm a divorce lady I'm still a human being but I think like this

00:27:37.420 that might be like where this question asker is in this kind of like early phase of renegotiating

00:27:44.160 her relationships with her community and people are treating her maybe a little weird maybe a

00:27:50.380 little bit like a contagion but I also think it's such a powerful symbol of freedom and autonomy

00:27:57.120 and she won't be alone for long I think it might take a while to sift out you know who those people

00:28:04.680 are and then you know I've had friendships where when I got divorced a lot of those couple friends

00:28:10.920 kind of just stopped inviting me to things and then of course there was pandemic and shutdown

00:28:17.540 and I felt really lonely and isolated and a little betrayed but I had some honest conversations

00:28:24.360 inspired by Anne Helen Peterson's great work on community I had a lot of honest conversations

00:28:30.380 with my friends where I was like here's what I need I need you to show up for me I feel a little

00:28:35.060 bit left behind and I don't think they even realized what had been happening and so I've

00:28:41.700 I've reconnected with some of those friends and it's been really great and really healing but

00:28:48.280 yeah this this question asker is not alone she will she will soon be joined

00:28:54.200 by at least one or two others I'm sure of it as like a little bit of a backtrack something that

00:29:02.240 observed and that I know I saw in the literature when I was researching the differences in types

00:29:07.560 of divorce depending on income is one of the reasons that lower income people are more apt

00:29:14.320 to divorce is that there actually is more of like their social safety net in terms of close-knit

00:29:20.700 friends and family that can help them with child care with staying at their house that sort of

00:29:26.380 thing and part of that has to do with the likelihood as you get more education and as your income goes

00:29:31.500 up, the likelihood to move away from your family also goes up. So it's kind of like this catch 22

00:29:37.240 of like, I stayed closer to home for various reasons, but also it makes it easier for me to

00:29:42.860 get divorced if I want to, because my support network is right here. And then the other thing

00:29:48.420 too, is that like a lot of times people in lower income families, no one has dropped out of the

00:29:53.920 workforce, because they needed both parents in the workforce in order to make enough money.

00:29:58.500 So it's not like what I see in narratives of a lot of people who've resisted divorce, where they say, I dropped out of the workforce for 10 years, for 20 years. I don't know how to get back in. That is not the stopping point.

00:30:10.440 Yeah, there's also like, not quite as much fear, right? Of like the poverty, because it's like, well, I know what it's like, you know, that I do think there is a little bit of that, like, trap of income. And yeah.

00:30:28.220 And bourgeois people are terrified of downward mobility.

00:30:32.620 Oh, my God.

00:30:33.420 Even for a little bit.

00:30:35.140 Yeah.

00:30:35.220 Like you said, like making fun of the person who's like, I have to move out of my McMansion

00:30:38.760 into a smaller house like that is.

00:30:40.700 And I understand why I absolutely like, again, as someone who had that happen to them, I

00:30:46.440 know why it is discombobulating in so many different ways.

00:30:49.460 But it's also not as it is not a death sentence by any means. 1.00

00:30:54.000 The other thing that I would note about this person scenario is that I think a lot of women

00:30:57.740 when they go through what I've been calling in my newsletter, the portal, right? So like somewhere 0.99

00:31:03.020 between like 37 and 45, sometimes that's when they get the gumption to ask for a divorce or

00:31:08.860 to like be like, I'm not doing in this anymore, right? Like we either we're going to go to

00:31:12.840 counseling and either it's going to work or it's not. But I think that men get a little bit older

00:31:17.680 and then they leave anyway. Like they cheat and then they leave anyway and it doesn't get to be

00:31:24.280 on your terms. And so I think that like, what she's going to see is either other women are 0.79

00:31:29.340 going to come to that place on their own terms, or the men are going in those relationships that

00:31:34.000 are unhappy, some of the men will leave. Yeah, that's so true. That's, that's really true. And

00:31:40.020 I think there's also perhaps to write like, that idea of staying together for the children that a

00:31:46.020 lot of people white knuckle it through, even still, even if you don't go to church or believe

00:31:51.100 in religion these religious ideas really kind of stick it to us but like there's a lot of that like

00:31:58.480 well i'm gonna just suffer through this so that i can be noble so that once the kids are you know

00:32:04.220 more fully grown that it'll be less disruptive to them and i you know of course like you can't

00:32:10.720 tell somebody how to live their life but it's also like your kids know you're miserable they

00:32:14.840 they know the kids know i have the the privilege of uh being raised by two parents who are still

00:32:21.980 together and who have spent many years making each other very miserable and it's not my place 0.98

00:32:27.320 to judge but like god damn your kids know like they're not hiding anything yes what a message 0.98

00:32:35.220 you're sending to your kids that like when you're miserable that you and like yes life is hard in 0.99

00:32:40.020 all these different ways but like it's not that hard you know you know what should be it shouldn't

00:32:45.920 have to be that right and you're telling your kids and this is like what I say in the book over and

00:32:51.600 over again like yeah relationships are difficult but they're not that difficult like if you're

00:32:56.660 with somebody like it shouldn't be that hard like you shouldn't be spent every and like don't martyr

00:33:02.860 yourself your children don't want you to martyr yourself like and you know I remember having this

00:33:09.540 conversation with my mom once where she was like well I never got to travel because I did all these

00:33:15.820 things and you know it was like before I went on a big trip in college and I was like nobody asked

00:33:21.420 you to do that you know like you did as you nailed yourself to a cross long before and now you want

00:33:28.540 us to like thank you for this like don't do that you know that feeling in the pit of your stomach

00:33:36.700 on Sunday night, when you think about the week ahead, friends of the pod, Melissa and Jonathan

00:33:41.300 Nightingale are on a mission to fix that. The Nightingales write a free biweekly newsletter

00:33:46.120 about work that's funny, no bullshit and eerily spot on. They call it the world's best newsletter.

00:33:52.500 But I think my own newsletter is pretty great. So you can find theirs at world's second best

00:33:57.860 newsletter.com. That's a joke, but like not a joke. That's actually the URL. It's great.

00:34:06.700 Okay, so our next question we have already answered.

00:34:11.560 So I'm going to have, we're going to read it.

00:34:14.120 It's from someone who's named Annie, which is also my name.

00:34:16.680 And then I'm going to reframe it a little bit because I think that there is something

00:34:19.480 that we can talk about that's related to it.

00:34:21.380 So this is from Annie.

00:34:23.380 Is it perhaps good if divorce is contagious?

00:34:26.260 Like if people see other divorced people happy and fulfilled after their divorces,

00:34:30.980 would we recognize it not as a failure, but as a personal triumph?

00:34:34.240 Okay, so my reframing of this is I think there has been a real shift in the way that we receive divorce announcements over the last 10 years.

00:34:47.000 And for all of the shit that we give Gwyneth Paltrow about conscious uncoupling, I do think that that's kind of the beginning of the shift.

00:34:55.220 And it trickles down and everything from like, I would contrast the way that like, Heather Armstrong's divorce was received. And Joanna Goddard of Cup of Joe, how her divorce was received and how it was framed too. So what do you see there in that? 0.96

00:35:11.680 And Glennon Doyle Milton's divorce, too.

00:35:14.320 Yeah.

00:35:14.480 I think that the cultural shift around that was, like, really interesting and powerful.

00:35:20.880 Absolutely.

00:35:22.200 And I think that, like, you know, I hear so many people say to me, I don't want to die alone.

00:35:29.180 We all die alone.

00:35:30.440 Like, all relationships end.

00:35:32.300 And they end either by, like, somebody choosing to end it or somebody dies.

00:35:38.280 Often, it's not even up to you.

00:35:40.160 like you could have a partner who just leaves or who tragically has a heart attack like there are

00:35:45.120 life is like full of endings it's also full of beginnings and i think this is one ending that

00:35:52.220 for so many years we've pathologized as a failure but like life has seasons things end trees fall

00:36:00.000 off trees fall off trees do fall uh but like but also so do leaves fall off the tree that's the

00:36:07.320 metaphor I'm trying to make. But like, it's not a failure. And I actually think it's a success to

00:36:13.840 look at your life and to say, this is not serving me. And it's we're a relationship. And it's also

00:36:20.320 not serving you. You know, I was so selfishly gratified and overjoyed when I ex remarried a

00:36:29.460 person who was everything I wasn't. And nor did I ever want to be I did not want to be that woman

00:36:36.360 in the world and then he found her and he remarried her and I was like yes see do you see like this is 0.66

00:36:42.080 it was a success to say we are not what each other want yeah and and to say let's try to

00:36:49.640 build a new kind of life and walk away from it because I think it is a sign of success to stand

00:36:56.580 up for yourself I think it is a sign of success to take those nails out of your hands and crawl 1.00

00:37:02.220 down from that cross because we need the wood but when women do that we're like oh she's so selfish 0.99

00:37:07.840 like she couldn't like that's so so good fine be selfish but you're right like Gwyneth Gwyneth 1.00

00:37:14.660 God bless her I I do kind of think that like you can only truly consciously uncouple if you're

00:37:20.960 really rich like the rest of us kind of have to hard scrabble it out and there's always one person

00:37:26.540 doing a lot of labor to make everything happy and good and that's fine because somebody's doing a

00:37:34.160 lot of labor to make everything happy and good in the relationship and at least if you're doing it

00:37:38.480 through a divorce you can eat pasta and bed alone at the end of the night like it's like

00:37:43.500 okay so this actually this is a question of how because in my mind I think about like the fact

00:37:50.460 that now that there are like divorce trips that people go on you know like that is much more of

00:37:55.720 a celebration in some capacities, then like the, we're not going to talk about this. This is

00:38:00.440 embarrassing and shameful. So this is a question from someone named Cece, who's dealing with

00:38:04.900 someone in her peer group's divorce and feels like it's changing things. And I would love your

00:38:09.540 perspective here. Melody's going to read this question for us. How do you navigate two friends

00:38:14.260 divorcing, especially when you and your spouse are equally friends with both ex-partners,

00:38:18.760 and they were your best couple friends? How do I relate to recently divorced friends that I've

00:38:23.840 only ever known as partnered or married for a decade and are now suddenly dating in their 30s.

00:38:29.300 What do I do when I thought we were going to be having and raising kids at the same time,

00:38:33.320 but now my newly divorced friends are on a totally new trajectory?

00:38:36.940 So the first thing that I will say before you go into that, as someone who is on a,

00:38:41.780 quote, totally new trajectory or totally different trajectory than many of my friends were in their

00:38:46.980 early 30s, is that you just, like, my advice to this person is just to be the very best friend

00:38:53.060 that they can possibly be to this person well I would also really encourage this person to

00:38:58.260 question why they so identify their relationship with their friend as being in a relationship like

00:39:07.560 why is that relationship why is that marriage so central to your identity as friendships like

00:39:14.580 life changes things happen like yeah this is just another thing that is happening in the course of

00:39:23.020 life like again we do not know what life will bring us and like to force like one of the easiest

00:39:30.240 things to navigate it's not a death you know it's not the death of a child it's two people deciding

00:39:37.240 this isn't working and yeah it's messy for a little bit but in a couple years it'll be fine

00:39:42.980 and that the way that you navigate it is not by like identifying so strongly with like their

00:39:50.880 relationship status which also sounds like relationship status is really important to the

00:39:55.900 question asker which is why I'm like I would really think deeply about why this is a problem

00:40:01.500 for you because I think that's gonna get to the core of it like your friends yeah they're on a

00:40:07.840 journey and it might be a little sticky for a while and you can say hey it's a little sticky

00:40:12.080 for me I mean I remember uh somebody I know I live in a small town so I'm gonna have to be a

00:40:18.000 a little intentionally vague but whose partner they were both involved in local politics pretty

00:40:24.600 high profile good friends of mine and got divorced in kind of a sticky way and I remember just like

00:40:33.180 navigating that and trying to say to both of them like I really value you I value your friendship

00:40:39.480 like I want to be here for you in a lot of ways and there were some boundaries I had to draw where

00:40:45.380 I was like I can't hear you talk like that about this other person and not in a gaslighty way but

00:40:52.480 like we know it could get really nasty and so things were getting a little and so I had to be

00:40:56.540 like hey maybe I'm not the best person for you to say this to and you know I will say like now

00:41:03.820 seven eight years out because again as part of a community like we're all in a good place like we

00:41:09.580 all see each other we all chat like I mean I know interpersonally it's fine but like both

00:41:15.240 couples are remarried you know I see them socially I have really good friendships with the husband's

00:41:21.640 new wife like and and it's great and it's a blessing to my life like this this new person

00:41:27.460 who came into my life that was great she's one of my best friends now and and I think that like

00:41:34.000 understanding that life is long and complicated and if you're in it for the long haul just be in

00:41:39.900 for the long haul and don't be afraid to say like oh my god this is this is really hard and I'm

00:41:45.800 having a hard time navigating this because I value you I value Kevin like we know that people are not

00:41:53.260 always their best selves so how can we support you and I think that that that that's okay like

00:42:00.780 life is always going to be a little bit messy and you can still be good couple friends and it's also

00:42:05.540 now is not the time to abandon that friendship either because I think these people you know

00:42:10.800 need you now more than ever and you don't have to be on the same life path as your friends like

00:42:16.680 what a limiting way of thinking of the world it makes life so much more interesting honestly

00:42:21.220 and I think you know that was a gift of divorce was that like when I was married all my friends

00:42:28.480 were couple friends and we were all having babies which I had them very young but I live in the

00:42:34.140 Midwest so you know that's a thing and uh you know we were all doing these things and like

00:42:40.040 forcing that break forced me to reevaluate my community to reevaluate how supportive actually

00:42:47.440 was this community or we were all just kind of being lumped in together yeah and like really

00:42:52.580 expand who and what and to be more intentional about community I really valued like and I keep

00:43:02.500 using this phrase queering it up but I do see it as queering it up I really valued reading this

00:43:08.200 book the tragedy of heterosexuality by the sociologist Jane Ward where she kind of flips

00:43:13.660 the script where you know we talk about like oh it's so sad to be queer it must be so hard but

00:43:18.120 she's like it's actually got to be hard to be heterosexual because the way you define your

00:43:22.180 relationships in your communities are so insular and so she really kind of like broke that mind

00:43:30.080 set that I had and and and I think it opens up your community where you can have like

00:43:34.920 you know younger friends who are more able to go out with you older friends you know who might stay

00:43:41.200 in with you like uh people who are vice versa yes yeah yeah exactly yes exactly or like people who

00:43:49.380 really want to connect with your kids in a way and then people who are like let's ditch the kids 0.80

00:43:55.280 And I think like when I talk about queering, I'm not talking about like, you know, your 0.57

00:43:59.800 personal sexuality.

00:44:01.100 I'm talking about breaking apart this heteronormative relationship we have with our communities

00:44:07.400 and our worlds and saying it's bigger, it's better.

00:44:10.820 Let's let in some mess and let's let in new ways of being friends and relationships.

00:44:16.340 Because I think that's like, it's great.

00:44:19.460 It's awesome.

00:44:20.180 I think that you know maybe it's just the fact that I like I said before not only

00:44:26.380 am the only person in my like my friend group who's not married I've been partnered with

00:44:32.120 someone for 10 years but like I'm not married and then also I've been the one who like lived

00:44:37.600 in a different place from most people and so oftentimes when I visited whether it was for

00:44:41.740 a weekend or a week or a month I was by myself yeah and it did not take a long time for me to

00:44:49.180 just to like get totally comfortable with being that person.

00:44:52.560 And I think that like sometimes there is this wariness of like,

00:44:56.940 oh, fifth wheel or third wheel or seventh wheel or whatever it is.

00:45:01.180 As long as you are welcoming and gracious and thoughtful

00:45:06.460 about the presence of that person in your life,

00:45:09.020 like it's not weird.

00:45:09.760 It's just a person that's also there.

00:45:12.680 And also think, why is it weird for you?

00:45:15.220 Like, why is that weird?

00:45:16.540 like you know I had this I remember having this conversation when I had this hard conversation

00:45:21.080 with a friend of mine where I was like you who's still very happily married and I value my friendship

00:45:26.520 with her and her husband and I was and she was like oh I just thought it would be weird for you

00:45:31.180 to be with couples I was like why would it be weird for me to be with my friends and why would

00:45:35.280 you think that right and like I'm like this like trope in a hallmark movie where I see two people

00:45:41.760 holding hands in a home and I'm like everything that could have been right like it's not

00:45:47.680 right right and it's also just like yes like I don't want your husband either like that's

00:45:56.040 I mean god bless but like no thank you ah no thank you I want friends and I want people to

00:46:04.880 talk to and i want community but it's not weird not everybody has to be one-to-one partnered i

00:46:12.920 know i just really think that heterosexuals need to just like do community more like gay people

00:46:17.880 and like be a little bit more accepting of mess and journey and not be so like well like they're 0.86

00:46:25.860 not with me here so if they don't have a partner then it's going to be weird if they come to dinner

00:46:31.020 with me and kevin no and why like no if anything they get to sit at the head of the table which is

00:46:36.620 a great place to sit and then they can tell you stories it'll be so fun and everybody is happy

00:46:43.980 and like i don't know it doesn't yeah this is it's only weird if you make it weird all right

00:46:50.040 if you are a paid subscriber stick around because liz and i are going to do advice time we are

00:46:55.100 answering a question about the protocol when you're getting married but all your friends are

00:46:59.600 divorced so Liz Lenz where can people find you on the internet and where is your preferred spot for

00:47:06.740 people to pre-order if they would like to pre-order your book um you can pre-order my book any way

00:47:12.420 that makes sense to you I know sometimes people you know live in communities where it's hard to

00:47:17.020 find an independent bookstore um that that's a great way to pre-order the book is to walk into

00:47:22.860 an independent bookstore and to say please may I have this book when it comes out you can also

00:47:27.720 pre-order online wherever books are sold bookshop.org is a great spot but whatever makes

00:47:33.780 sense to you and you can find me online at the sub stack men yell at me and I guess since social

00:47:40.300 media is imploding I also have an Instagram and but yeah I'm hiding out in a newsletter for now

00:47:47.640 until morale improves somewhere else absolutely thank you so much this is great

00:47:54.600 thanks for listening to the culture study podcast be sure to subscribe wherever you get your

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00:48:54.760 The Culture Study Podcast is produced by me,

00:48:56.960 Anne Helen Peterson, and Melody Rowell.

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00:49:01.000 You can find me on Instagram at Anne Helen Peterson,

00:49:03.380 the show at Culture Study Pod,

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Culture Study Podcast - February 14, 2024

Is Divorce Actually Contagious？

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