Culture Study Podcast - The Rise of Therapy Speak

00:00:00.920 Hey everyone, this is Anne. This is a special New Year's Day episode of the Culture Study

00:00:07.240 Podcast. At first we were like, do we want to put anything out on this day? It's kind

00:00:10.980 of a weird day. Also, we want to avoid like any sort of, I don't know, cliche or gross

00:00:16.340 resolution content. But then we figured out that we were taping an episode about therapy

00:00:21.860 speak and how, in a weird way, this is a perfect episode for the beginning of the new year.

00:00:28.340 And there's also a great ask-in-anything discussion at the end, which is actually about resolutions.

00:00:33.280 So stay tuned.

00:00:34.660 This is a really fun and interesting and complicated episode.

00:00:38.520 I know that sounds weird.

00:00:39.580 It's all three things at once, but it's possible.

00:00:41.560 And I can't wait to hear your thoughts.

00:00:45.180 Thank you for feeling comfortable to share that with me.

00:00:49.100 But I will respectfully be withdrawing my engagement on this specific issue in order to maintain the emotional bandwidth required to keep my growth and health and well-being furthering in this current period.

00:01:06.220 So I respect you to go forward with that in your own space, but I will be withdrawing my engagement in this current instance.

00:01:19.100 Hi, everyone. This is the Culture Study Podcast, and I'm Anne Helen Peterson.

00:01:27.320 I'm Ash Compton, a licensed psychotherapist and cultural theorist and the co-host of the

00:01:31.400 podcast Bad Therapist.

00:01:32.920 And I'm Rachel Monroe. I'm a writer at The New Yorker and also a co-host of Bad Therapist.

00:01:37.820 I love the show. It's perfect listening for when you're making dinner, and it's just a

00:01:44.100 perfect accompaniment and calming because you two are also friends and I always love that on a show

00:01:49.660 when the people who are doing the show are actually friends yeah there's a deep bed of references

00:01:54.560 yeah we try not to do right a lot of lore try not to do too many inside jokes but well my my favorite

00:02:02.660 was uh like in the intro to the show you do like this 12 minute like basically like this is what

00:02:09.060 the show is going to be and you talk about your own bad therapists and the story about the person

00:02:14.960 in Baltimore who Rachel you were going to them and all of your friends were also going to them

00:02:21.300 and like to so that Ash could get the reference you said the name of the person and then you

00:02:26.360 bleeped it out after the fact like it's exactly how if I were describing a story to my best friend

00:02:31.640 like how I would do that so I really loved that but can you just say a little bit about how you

00:02:36.700 decided that you wanted to do the show and, and kind of like your, your dual expertise in this

00:02:43.000 topic? I think it kind of started, it's, it was born out of just the conversations that we would

00:02:49.360 have all the time, just as friends, the things that we're interested in. I think we both share

00:02:54.980 the habit of when we really care about something, all we want to do is like critique and dissect it

00:03:02.980 and like kind of pick it apart so you know it's not like an anti-therapy podcast we both are in

00:03:09.140 therapy ash is a therapist but we just found ourselves like you know i'm a reporter i found

00:03:14.500 myself kind of covering stories of uh just various like manipulations and scams and even the things

00:03:22.760 that i wasn't covering just seeing so much of it out there and social media the way that therapy

00:03:27.140 speak is pervading so much of the world and then you know at probably like on our 15th conversation

00:03:32.620 we're like what if we had microphones and I think because my work is so private I have had so many

00:03:39.820 wonderful open conversations with you about your work that's quite public and it's been like um

00:03:44.860 just nice to like talk about cads and grifters in the real world that like you at times report on

00:03:51.360 that's not the only thing you do but you know you will at times like find that lens um and yeah some

00:03:57.380 of these folks desired or I think required kind of a more critical lens that we could look at with

00:04:03.140 our two expertises combined. Yeah. Today, we're going to look at the rhetoric of therapy speak

00:04:08.640 and how it infuses and I think facilitates a lot of the manipulation that happens like in terms of

00:04:16.140 looking at these specific grifters and that sort of thing. But then like there's just this this

00:04:22.300 vast well of like precedence and I loved the episode about like shadow and like shadow speak

00:04:30.100 and shadow self and I had been kind of aware of it it's not really on like my TikTok page but I

00:04:38.340 had heard stuff that's like related to this and the way that you drill down to like look at oh

00:04:43.880 like here is where this comes from in like Jungian philosophy like this has like this is something

00:04:51.220 that we actually like is a real thing that we talk about yes and jungian psychotherapists like

00:04:58.160 would talk about it but then here is how it gets manifested and spread on tiktok in a very different

00:05:06.000 way right that's like very i think uh perverted in some ways that time's bastardized for sure

00:05:15.600 i mean that's the thing though and like all of this of course has a root like all of these words

00:05:20.300 came from somewhere you know it would be one thing if we were saying like gosh this is made

00:05:25.420 up language like what are you doing this is just they're just inventing therapy language but it's

00:05:30.160 I think it's more bothersome because there are actual roots and like source material that doesn't

00:05:36.260 get appropriately discussed often but it's like these are actual concepts and I think that's

00:05:41.980 partly why they are able to travel so far I think something like we haven't done an emotional labor

00:05:47.180 episode yet but we definitely will like something like that a phrase like that is really catalyzes

00:05:53.720 something that people see in the real in their lives a lot but then it becomes as it is like

00:06:01.720 transferred onto social media it just becomes kind of simplified and flattened but then also

00:06:08.720 extended and applied in all sorts of kind of wild ways. But the kind of need to name something

00:06:18.460 is at the root of it. And so that's what's like, compelling, but also frustrating about the way

00:06:24.540 that a lot of these concepts just are out there. And I think we'll get into this when we answer

00:06:30.700 the specific listener questions. But I do think that there is this feeling of like,

00:06:34.560 oh now I know this word that explains everything everything is illuminated my life is solved my

00:06:42.400 relationships are solved and I think that a lot of like it's almost like a hack right it's like

00:06:48.320 yeah a therapy hack it's just learning it is a hack yeah I think optimizer culture definitely

00:06:54.340 turns up the volume of this and the speed the desired speed of learning it yeah and like neither

00:06:59.740 I don't want to speak for you Rachel but I'm not against people learning things or learning them

00:07:03.820 even quickly, like our world is pretty disintegrated right now. So like, whatever works, honestly.

00:07:10.220 And again, it just gets like, like you said, like illuminates everything, but it just still

00:07:15.140 feels shallow. Which is why you need more and more of it, right? Because it's like, it's, it's like,

00:07:20.360 oh, this explains everything, but it doesn't really. So then you need the next concept and

00:07:24.020 the next concept and the next concept. Yeah, totally. Can we talk a little bit about what

00:07:29.040 we mean when we say therapy speak, just to kind of set the terms for this episode. What do you

00:07:34.260 think of Ash? I think of boundary, trauma, gaslight, narcissist, toxic and attachment.

00:07:44.180 I'm like, I think about this all of the time. Do you find that like people that you see in

00:07:51.660 your practice, like do they come in knowing those words and wielding those words?

00:07:55.040 sure yeah which again I'm not against and like you know there's also um a ton of like pop psych

00:08:01.200 books that have just like you know that uh arena Rachel you'd know more about this but like that

00:08:06.240 in the publishing era has gotten like more and more proliferated too so I'm I'm not opposed to

00:08:12.520 or it's not surprising if someone comes in and they've already read like a tome of information

00:08:16.960 from like some of these pop psych books you know or sometimes people are reading like Jungian

00:08:21.740 source material like I practice psychodynamic like kind of modern psychoanalysis type of therapy so

00:08:27.760 I also I might not be a good one to answer this question because I feel like I tend to attract

00:08:32.480 intellectual artists musicians designers people who are who want to be digging in anyway yeah but

00:08:38.300 I talked to other therapists who practice more like behavioral CBT and they are especially sick

00:08:43.860 of the tiktokification language yeah Rachel are you are there any words that that Ash didn't use

00:08:50.220 that you would add to our lexicon? I was just, I was like, what a, what a swift and definitive

00:08:54.720 list. And you weren't even like looking at the computer. Like this wasn't like a reference list.

00:09:00.680 No, no. And we did not know that question in advance. That really is true. I don't have notes

00:09:04.380 on it. Truly off the dome. Um, yeah, um, truly I can't think of anything to add. I, I, you know,

00:09:11.300 we talked about words, but I would also add like a tone of voice. Um, like there's like therapy

00:09:17.880 voice right or even like i i think specifically of uh the now viral clip of the press tour for

00:09:27.520 wicked where the journalist is like we're just people are holding space for this and like it's

00:09:33.980 some of it is like this incredible sincerity yeah and just like uh if you count like if you

00:09:40.320 contradict me then this uh well i'm so fragile that things will fall apart almost right yeah

00:09:45.980 There's, like, a reverence, but there can also be the kind of other side of that tone is, like, scolding.

00:09:53.740 What was funny about that clip to me, though, is, like, I'm sure you've seen the aftermath, right, where, like, Cynthia and Ariana, if I can first name basis them, are, like, we don't know, like, what was she talking, like, what was even being talked about?

00:10:06.180 So the holding space becomes so archetypal that the space is more important than the, like, you know, maybe the fragility of the moment someone were to pop up like a balloon and was like, what are you, what are we talking about here?

00:10:18.720 And I was like, everyone was just in this, like, reverence, reverie mode.

00:10:22.900 It was so interesting.

00:10:24.420 And I also think therapy speak is very wound up in the discourse of the internet.

00:10:29.500 And so like what Rachel said just now about how it's both like accusatory and defensive at the same time. Right. Like it's on offense and defense simultaneously, which is a posture that I think a lot of us by necessity have taken up on the Internet. But you see it very vividly when you're when you're using therapy speak.

00:10:49.760 I think another branch of it is the compulsion to diagnose and be diagnosed. So some of that is like, Ashley, you're saying like narcissist. That's a big one.

00:11:01.780 That's an other diagnosis, though.

00:11:03.640 Right.

00:11:04.140 But also kind of identifying with a diagnosis and having that be like a crucial kind of

00:11:10.660 identity, a pillar of your identity, and then also like labeling others.

00:11:16.420 You're borderline.

00:11:17.720 You're an INFP.

00:11:19.360 You're, you know, it can go, you're an Enneagram type five.

00:11:22.680 Yeah.

00:11:23.160 It can go in many different directions, like both kind of harsh and just sort of like,

00:11:29.100 this is who I am.

00:11:29.780 i think that's especially proliferated in like white cis spaces where totally right post like

00:11:35.180 20 it's embarrassing like 2020 people are like well actually i have adhd and it's really really

00:11:40.360 hard for me too to exist and it's like whoa okay what are we how are we comparing identity like

00:11:45.380 this um feels like there was a big rise of it after 2020 yes i absolutely agree and i think

00:11:52.320 that also a lot of people who are doing the policing in terms of like you don't have a

00:11:56.660 space to do this like that are people who already have like accumulated privilege and all of these

00:12:01.180 ways and are trying to find a place that where like they can speak from a vulnerability almost

00:12:07.260 yeah well i am also experiencing all of these different things and like life is hard life is

00:12:13.480 hard in so many different ways and there's no way that like you can ever win in some sort of

00:12:19.760 oppression olympics but that is a way that people try to access that spot of speaking from

00:12:27.220 vulnerability i think yeah totally so our first question is going to be about all of the changing

00:12:34.200 meanings within this vocab let's hear from cory whose pronouns are they them how do we combat and

00:12:40.920 correct pop psychology meanings of words that do and are meant to have clinical significance

00:12:46.480 especially now that losing their meaning has already happened in the broader culture as someone

00:12:52.160 who has experienced trauma in my life to the point of having complex ptsd it's getting really old to

00:12:58.540 hear people use the word trauma to mean discomfort or hard thing that happened to me i also feel this

00:13:05.240 way about the word boundary which seems to have lost all semblance of meaning in the broader world

00:13:10.620 will it ever be possible to have words mean things again wow great question uh ash do you

00:13:19.160 want to start with this one sure yeah i mean as we were talking about i think the internet

00:13:24.340 acculturation of of these words kind of does tend to dilute them um and i'm into the anti-stigmatization

00:13:32.720 and the sort of like democratization of the words and i guess i would ask the listener like

00:13:38.520 in what arenas are you being forced to listen to I'm going to say trauma dump which is another

00:13:44.340 kind of like internet-y meme-y word but like to have these words like kind of shuffled into your

00:13:50.940 space is this at work where you could just like maybe walk away and say um I need to get back to

00:13:56.500 that deadline or is it like in a friendship where actually you could hopefully make that friendship

00:14:01.040 more conscious by saying I don't know I think owning your feelings about what this does for me

00:14:06.380 is it feels like it diminishes my actual trauma like what are you getting at it sounds like I mean

00:14:12.300 I I'm a very frank person so I would say like it sounds like you're meaning discomfort I feel like

00:14:17.280 through like the gentle but firm teachings within friendships and relationships we can combat some

00:14:23.900 of this like dilution do you think that it matters that clinical terms have migrated in their meaning

00:14:33.660 or expanded in their meaning i mean i do think it is problematic because like i work in the field

00:14:39.960 of trauma i though i don't talk about it a lot i do a lot of like climate trauma and disaster

00:14:44.440 trauma so people who are afraid of being impacted by the climate change uh you know micro changes

00:14:50.160 or who already have but i like hesitate to use that word in like a dinner party setting because

00:14:55.840 i feel like then it opens the floodgates of like all of the other meanings of that word which

00:15:00.700 frankly it makes me feel like I'm gatekeeping it in a way and again like you know based on our

00:15:05.920 like last topic it's I don't ever ever want to compare trauma and be like well actually that's

00:15:11.540 not really trauma especially from my purview which would feel like oh my gosh expertise like

00:15:17.540 shuffling yeah but and like I mean let's go to boundary because trauma I think is like a really

00:15:24.160 it's an interesting one I want to come back to but boundary how I hear it being used in the wider

00:15:29.500 internet world sounds to me like a rule or regulation often right boundaries like this

00:15:36.620 is like if we want to go to the source this is like kleinian this is winnicott this is like self

00:15:41.640 other self object other you know container of of safety that a parent or caregivers um teaching

00:15:49.360 you giving you and then you're as a baby developmentally and a child you're learning

00:15:53.760 like the boundary that separates you from another person right that's the like initial and there's

00:15:59.020 Freudian Jungian concepts around this too there's gestalt like personal or contact barriers how do

00:16:04.920 we make contact with our environment and also I am a fan of like let's say family boundaries for

00:16:10.800 instance like um but the way it's used it's almost like um I don't know if I'm going to say this

00:16:15.860 right but like it's almost like a verb instead of a noun in a way but not quite but it's like

00:16:21.580 setting boundaries yeah yeah my boundary is you can't do this and it's like okay well we don't

00:16:28.100 really have control of our or ideally we don't control other people's actions the boundary could

00:16:34.120 be i think boundaries are best when they're silent actually huh that's so interesting so like

00:16:39.900 people are actively like voicing a boundary when really like they should be

00:16:46.880 just boundary owning the boundary yeah yeah yeah and like just making decisions in their lives

00:16:52.240 yeah to enact it yeah yeah but this i want rachel to talk to i want this um starts to get into cut

00:16:58.760 off language though i feel like yes right so i i found a stat last week that was saying that 20

00:17:04.860 i don't know if i buy this i want to like go back to the source material but 25 of dads in the united

00:17:09.660 states have some estrangement from at least one of their children wow and you know they were look

00:17:14.760 the article was talking about post trump era stuff you know and and the political polarization and

00:17:21.160 then 10% of moms have estrangement from one or more of their children. I will find the source

00:17:25.960 and send it to you because I'm a little bit like in disbelief about that number, frankly.

00:17:30.280 But it's still a lot. I mean, even it's a lot. And it's, I buy it though. I actually buy it.

00:17:34.500 Yeah. You do? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I'm not, you know, this is like, you know,

00:17:40.020 this is not therapy talk for the wider world, but like, I'm not against having boundaries with

00:17:45.060 family. And sometimes estrangement is like what needs to happen. And I super understand that it's

00:17:50.340 very nuanced. It's very case-by-case basis. But I feel like it's become so like, I don't have the

00:17:54.800 bandwidth. I need to cut you off. I have a boundary against this. And then it becomes like a wall

00:18:00.720 instead of like a permeable structure. Boundaries are movable and they shift based on your bandwidth

00:18:07.040 that doesn't need to be talked about and talked about to the other person who's receiving the

00:18:10.940 boundary, let's say. Rachel, what does this all make you think about? I think Ash was really on

00:18:15.760 point to say, like, where are we encountering this? Because I think sometimes in kind of

00:18:20.940 actual human space, person to person contact, like this stuff will come up and it's just sort

00:18:29.140 of like, there's always going to be some language slippage, right? We don't use words perfectly,

00:18:35.400 precisely. And sometimes it's just an approximation. You're trying to get somewhere

00:18:40.480 and you're like using the shorthand. And like Ash said, if it's like in within a French,

00:18:45.380 some sort of intimate relationship where there's like a level of trust or understanding you could

00:18:50.760 sort of be like what do you actually mean right you know like the word so the word doesn't become

00:18:54.740 a kind of a block you know from actually like what are we actually talking about here yeah

00:18:59.240 but then I think what can get really annoying is seeing it online right like seeing the slides and

00:19:06.280 seeing the way that these things um are kind of used as a shorthand or as like content amplifiers

00:19:16.220 um and like for that stuff all i can do is say like cleanse your timeline

00:19:20.800 all you can yeah no like set a boundary like we're talking about people who use like

00:19:26.720 hashtag boundaries like who are like trying to surface themselves in their content and their

00:19:31.900 messaging and their brand in part by being a person who like talks about boundaries a lot

00:19:38.260 right right and I think that like when it when you're encountering it in that way it's so

00:19:43.300 frustrating that then when you're encountering it with real people in your real life it's like

00:19:48.000 you can bring the frustration to it but sometimes that person is just trying to like find a way to

00:19:52.520 yeah say something clunky it's clumsy yeah so one thing that I find myself getting super annoyed

00:19:58.720 with all the time and have written about this is people who say I resonate with that yes oh my god

00:20:05.960 and it's it's very much uh the younger generation not exclusively but I think like almost all of it

00:20:12.600 that I see is amongst people who are say younger than like 33 and I I have been so frustrated with

00:20:20.740 it and a couple of months ago I was like okay so what is it that actually pisses me off about

00:20:27.280 people using it's not that it's like grammatically incorrect or whatever right it's that it I think

00:20:34.340 it actually communicates a real shift and the way that we think about like our positionality

00:20:41.580 towards something that is resonating right it's like yeah instead of like that thing resonates

00:20:47.540 with me we say I resonate with that like I have an affinity towards that right so there's a

00:20:54.320 different directionality so with all that said I have tried to start thinking about like

00:20:58.860 actually people are trying to communicate something different and it's not just that

00:21:03.860 like they're using grammar in a way that annoys me but do you think that's part of like the hyper

00:21:09.020 this is my one of my main concerns with therapy talk democratize over online do you think that's

00:21:14.660 part of hyper individualization like when it's like yes right yeah like I I I I see myself in

00:21:21.600 that right yeah yeah yeah it's like oh for sure and like that that that would be my more interesting 0.92

00:21:27.200 conversation than just like can you believe young people use grammar wrong right right yeah well

00:21:33.040 then we start to sound like just like sad millennials 100 or or xers yeah okay so i think

00:21:43.200 oh i melody wants us to talk about this because i think this is really important when people talk

00:21:47.580 about actual diagnoses as like a quirk when they're like oh i'm ocd like if someone's tidy

00:21:52.580 which is something that i feel like used to be much much more popular was very much like i don't

00:21:58.000 know late 90s early 2000s to be like oh i'm so ocd and now i don't think you'd say that or bipolar

00:22:04.940 for someone who like has emotions um i don't know like what's the line there i i also think that

00:22:11.800 sometimes the like soft diagnosis can make someone more susceptible to manipulation

00:22:17.560 um and to manipulating or being no being manipulated like to grifters to charlatans

00:22:26.060 yeah right oh yeah uh-huh because there's some level of insecurity and like what you're

00:22:30.580 looking for is somebody to affirm and say like yes it's true you do you know you are you have

00:22:38.980 this special thing there's this this thing about you that you're like wondering about is true

00:22:43.000 yeah and like here i'm going to explain this thing that sometimes it seems a little bit like

00:22:49.440 a horoscope where you see yourself in the explanation of what like a diagnosis is you're

00:22:58.240 like oh do you hate getting up in the morning right like do you don't like washing the dishes

00:23:03.420 does your partner annoy you 20 of the time yeah you know and i i have i have mixed feelings about

00:23:11.140 this because i have uh what i will it's not an official diagnosis but it is when you um when

00:23:18.720 uh really loud sounds or specific grating sounds um misophonia misophonia um and it's a lot like

00:23:29.140 i've had it my entire life and i've never had an explanation for why i reacted the way that i did

00:23:35.260 to my brother clicking a pen when we were nine right um or my partner when he's just like

00:23:40.580 fiddling with the top of a pop can um and now i know oh it gets a lot worse during certain

00:23:48.280 points in my cycle and like but then there were times when i explode and i'm like you just stop 0.96

00:23:54.540 Like that doesn't – knowing what's going on, I have to think a lot about like that doesn't excuse me being a total bitch about someone just having mouth sounds.

00:24:05.060 Do you know what I mean?

00:24:05.820 Like it's not – that is not their responsibility.

00:24:09.700 It is my responsibility.

00:24:11.400 I really love the recent Rachel Aviv book.

00:24:14.220 What's the title of it?

00:24:15.240 But anyway, I feel like the kind of subterranean theme of it was like, was diagnoses and how

00:24:22.000 when like having a diagnosis can be this real sense of relief and naming and you understand

00:24:28.900 like, oh, this all makes sense.

00:24:30.340 I make sense to myself.

00:24:31.880 But it can also have this like limiting side where then you kind of over identify with

00:24:37.040 the diagnosis and then you are sort of like, and I, it will always be this.

00:24:41.720 Right.

00:24:42.140 And strangers to ourselves, right?

00:24:44.320 Is that the one?

00:24:44.780 strangers to ourselves exactly yeah and and can kind of in some ways like inhibit

00:24:50.100 you know it should be this expansive thing that helps you kind of relate to the world in a new way

00:24:55.180 but it can also be this kind of inhibiting totally factor too i think it's also like

00:25:00.420 part of the problem with all this is like it's very it feels very additive to me so it's like

00:25:06.100 you have this now you can do this and you can time block your way into a new routine and

00:25:10.920 And, like, you know, to your point, Anne, that's, like, a total breeding ground for, like, coachy therapy people to be like, I have a new product for you.

00:25:19.540 It feels very, like, diet culture in a way.

00:25:22.100 Take this pill.

00:25:22.800 Do this thing.

00:25:23.360 Yada, yada.

00:25:24.140 But, like, growth is actually, like, a reductive process.

00:25:29.280 Like, we shrink and deflate and shed ideally as we're growing.

00:25:34.540 And as we move to like, this is very young Ian, but move to like from ego to libido, like what brings you pleasure in the world if you are lucky enough to explore that.

00:25:44.600 And so I find it to be like additive, like we're all of a sudden I'm wearing like 20 jackets and have, you know, like so much gear around how to fix and solve.

00:25:53.340 So many systems.

00:25:54.280 So many like ADHD journals.

00:25:56.680 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:25:57.260 The journals.

00:25:58.140 Yeah.

00:25:58.660 Yeah.

00:25:59.780 Okay.

00:26:00.300 Next question that'll, I think, allow us to address some of this.

00:26:03.260 And it's a little bit about weaponizing therapy language, too, which weaponizing is a therapy.

00:26:08.940 I know.

00:26:10.200 But so this comes from Katie, and it's an example of therapy speak in a really public setting.

00:26:16.580 I feel like a good example of weaponizing therapy talk is Ashlyn Harris's recent statements about her ex-wife, Allie Kruger, and their marriage, particularly one of being very good at disassociating for the end of her marriage.

00:26:29.260 this divorce has played out pretty publicly what are the effects of celebrities specifically

00:26:34.700 using therapy talks so publicly okay first let's let's hear a clip from the interview that this

00:26:40.760 question is referencing i am a very anyone who knows me i am so touchy feeler you know the second

00:26:47.160 i come through this door i'm hugging i love you um i see you but like you can only give give give

00:26:55.760 give, give, give, give so much until you really have nothing, nothing left. And, and you,

00:27:03.080 your shell of a human, I became very, very good at disassociating. And that's what my therapist

00:27:09.380 knew right away. It was my ability to sit and suffer, my ability to disassociate and my ability

00:27:17.820 to serve other people before my own wants and needs, which I genuinely think probably kept me

00:27:23.000 in that marriage for as long as it did whoa okay the funny thing that strikes me right away is i'm

00:27:30.120 like oh yeah i've heard about that before like like it doesn't sound that weird to me it's always

00:27:36.000 alarming when people use their therapist as a character witness it's so true like i can see why

00:27:43.180 it's tempting where it's like my therapist thinks that you're a dangerous person for me yes you know

00:27:47.320 it's tempting isn't it but not usually a good idea uh can i ask for context did ali say something

00:27:54.380 publicly first not to like tit for tat it but was there something that happened to contextualize

00:28:00.580 like this like major spill out uh well so basically ashlyn was the bad woman in this

00:28:08.660 situation because they broke up and then ashlyn got with sofia bush and so like so she's the one

00:28:14.880 who like went to another person and so you have to explain like why am I behaving this way she

00:28:20.400 wants to defend her character yeah yeah yeah okay yeah I mean it makes I think it's like I feel like

00:28:26.700 we just have so much more access to everybody this is obvious but you know like our celebrities are

00:28:34.140 like sort of niche celebrities our friends our acquaintances and everybody is like I think on

00:28:41.260 some level this is sort of like what you were writing about the other day and like you this

00:28:45.520 this impetus to kind of be presenting yourself and like narrativizing yourself in your life at

00:28:51.080 every moment and like I imagine the like bigger the spotlight um the sort of more you feel the

00:29:00.400 need to do that actually maybe that's not true I think you get a certain level of famous and like

00:29:04.460 you don't maybe yeah right to do that oh yeah like Angelina doesn't have to do that she's like

00:29:09.700 I'm not going to get into that.

00:29:11.100 But it's like mid-fame, you really need to have like a bulletproof narrative.

00:29:17.200 You need to sort of, and I do think that this is like, it's all over social media.

00:29:21.760 You sort of want to know where you stand.

00:29:23.160 Who's good?

00:29:23.660 Who's bad?

00:29:24.320 Am I on the right?

00:29:25.180 Like, here's the line between the good and the bad.

00:29:27.600 Am I like, I just want to make sure I'm on the good side.

00:29:29.580 And so I think therapy talk, it has this authority of virtue behind it.

00:29:36.620 Like when it's used badly, it has the authority of virtue behind it.

00:29:40.040 And it is sort of like, kind of allows us to like, I mean, this is what the opposite

00:29:45.460 of what actual therapy, what it's good does, but it like allows us to sort of like split

00:29:50.280 the world into the toxic and the non-toxic.

00:29:53.240 And if you don't, if you don't put out a story, people are going to put out a story

00:29:57.680 about you.

00:29:58.200 I'm sure that you want to own the narrative.

00:30:00.240 Right.

00:30:00.740 Exactly.

00:30:01.200 Like part of the kind of impetus to go out there.

00:30:05.380 I should also bring up the example of Jonah Hill.

00:30:08.440 Do you know about this very messy example?

00:30:10.520 You mean because of Stutz and then what happened after?

00:30:13.500 Well, and like, yeah, like the screenshots of texts where he was like, if you want to wear a bikini, that crosses my boundaries.

00:30:21.620 Like, that sort of thing.

00:30:23.280 And that was really poorly timed right after he had released that documentary where, you know, and like, I don't know.

00:30:31.480 I have so many things to say about visible therapy, you know, that's a whole other topic

00:30:36.400 for another time. But like, it's just really interesting to be like, oh, it's so it was

00:30:40.940 ripe for like, oh, you're not really integrating your therapy, are you? Oops. But do you think

00:30:47.600 people learn from this? Like, is there a trickle down effect, I guess? From what happened with

00:30:52.740 Jonah Hill? Or no, like just like public examples of people using therapy speed? Or is it a trickle

00:31:00.280 up effect where therapy or like where celebrities actually start using the language that like

00:31:06.200 normies use on tiktok i think it's probably that i've i can't think of like a specific

00:31:12.460 example of a celebrity using therapy language in a way that i was like oh my gosh yeah whoa you know

00:31:18.180 like it's not i mean maybe i'm the bad audience for this like i you know it's my work but it's

00:31:24.600 never been like helpful in any way i don't yeah i don't know it reminds me of like covid like

00:31:30.560 when they were singing imagine and like it's sort of like we don't really to me like we don't really

00:31:37.460 need you in this space like yeah maybe you're not the best messenger the only example that i can

00:31:42.900 think of is there is this famous interview with jennifer aniston i think it was in vanity fair

00:31:48.420 i love her host uh brad pitt jennifer aniston breakup and and when i believe he was like

00:31:56.620 starting to get together with angelina jolie around this time and oh yes it was after angelina

00:32:03.220 jolie and brad pitt had done the w magazine photo shoot where they had like 50s like housewife like

00:32:11.600 um it's like and they said that they weren't together right so like all around mr and mrs

00:32:17.300 images seared in my mind absolutely absolutely like incredible peak of gossip moment and this

00:32:23.560 is also a great example of how huge celebrities like they don't have to write a caption on like

00:32:29.180 instagram or like screenshot a notes thing like they just do an incredibly high profile

00:32:33.700 interview where they say one devastating thing and in this case jennifer aniston said very

00:32:40.040 pointedly that i think there's a sensitivity chip missing there oh i did not remember that quote

00:32:47.020 right and that but that like i mean i'm sure people used words like like some sort of chip

00:32:53.900 like that sort of thing but like i think that that was a sort of a moment where people are like

00:32:58.900 oh yeah that's a way to explain a certain type of behavior uh-huh behavior another word that's

00:33:04.740 very weaponized i think you think so yeah how i just like i don't like your behavior like you know

00:33:11.840 in a work environment or something. It's like, you know, that to me feels adjacent to the therapy

00:33:19.060 talk. Yeah. That's really funny. I remember that shoot. I did not remember that quote that like

00:33:24.800 searing knife term, but it's kind of perfect too. Cause it's not, it's not kind of deploying a

00:33:31.000 trope. I mean, it's really just, it's, it's, that's why she's so original. I mean, except

00:33:38.060 Except for the fact that her hair hasn't changed.

00:33:40.040 Well, it's created a wave of haircuts.

00:33:44.660 One iconic haircut, and then she never has to change it ever again.

00:33:47.760 I know, it's so true.

00:33:49.120 Okay, this one is going to be kind of an own, I think, on us, but it'll be really interesting.

00:33:53.820 It's about theories about what's behind the rise of therapy speak.

00:33:57.320 This theory comes from Sloan, and Melody's going to read it.

00:34:00.540 Regarding the rise of therapy speak, do you think this could be a trickle-down effect from academia, specifically the liberal arts?

00:34:06.780 I went to a liberal arts university in the 2010s, completed an MFA.

00:34:11.360 In critiques, it always felt like when people didn't know what to say about someone's work,

00:34:15.880 the first resort was to approach it from a psychological slash Freudian perspective.

00:34:21.240 To me, the rise of therapy speak seems like a natural evolution of that impulse.

00:34:25.900 Okay.

00:34:26.980 So there's two things that I think are happening here.

00:34:29.560 One is that like a lot of media studies in particular, like if you have any access to

00:34:33.980 like literary theory and like Lacan, Derrida, like you learn a pretty bastardized understanding

00:34:43.440 of Freud vis-a-vis these theorists. And then like to sound smart, you can like apply a critique

00:34:52.040 through that lens. So I think that's part of it. I think so too. I think it actually like,

00:34:58.080 you know, Sloan's asking if it trickles down from academia, but I think actually it probably

00:35:02.460 trickles down from the art world period right into like professors who are teaching Lacan

00:35:08.760 and like you know the sardine tin and like objectivity and subjectivity from the gaze

00:35:14.020 and then right like and that I kind of think

00:35:17.880 well just what happens in MFA programs I think what happens is it trickles down from Oprah

00:35:26.660 and Dr. Phil and then you learn in academia like yeah well I think if we're talking about workshops

00:35:33.220 people aren't ever critiquing each other's work they're critiquing each other's personality it's

00:35:37.640 so true I mean this is maybe too much of a blanket statement and it is and then you just like throw

00:35:43.480 some Lacanianisms in there to pretend that you're not just like basically doing an Oprah that's so

00:35:49.860 funny on somebody I also think it's because we have a paucity of language to talk about people's

00:35:55.740 art so i have this memory of uh my creative writing teacher in college who i i just thought

00:36:01.800 she was like the most amazing woman ever to live because she like wore scarves and would say things 0.72

00:36:06.740 like i went when i was at cambridge when she was talking about going to harvard right um but she

00:36:12.760 would write all the time on people's pieces like be more expansive but also reductive right

00:36:23.080 So, and I understand this now in theory, like with writing, oftentimes you want to expand

00:36:30.660 and then reduce and expand and reduce.

00:36:32.560 But at the time I was like, she has nothing to say.

00:36:35.480 And so she's just saying that.

00:36:37.520 Right.

00:36:37.920 Totally.

00:36:39.060 But yeah, critiques are so, there should be a whole psychological study on critiques

00:36:43.340 in general.

00:36:44.420 I went to my, you know, where I come from with this is I went to design school undergrad

00:36:49.340 before I switched to psychology later on and completed that work.

00:36:53.080 And like art crits are so different from design crits too.

00:36:57.040 And like the way in which you get taken down to Rachel's point, like your personality can

00:37:01.600 get totally attacked or like people can be hyper competitive in these programs.

00:37:05.660 So it can be like a smart off, but also just like taking someone down by through the lens 1.00

00:37:11.360 of their work if that person's being an asshole. 0.98

00:37:13.480 But then also is that connected to the way that therapy speak is used as a sort of like 0.99

00:37:19.780 authority off people trying to like claim authority by using therapy speak in some way

00:37:25.480 totally i think so yeah you when you're using therapy speak you're sort of positioning yourself

00:37:31.420 like outside of the dynamic you're saying like i'm sort of standing outside and above this and

00:37:36.280 like naming what's going on i'm not i'm not a part of it oh no no no right i'm i'm i'm telling

00:37:43.240 you what's going on which they're in is not employing concepts of the gaze they're not

00:37:47.020 understanding the objectivity and the subjectivity that Lacombe was talking about.

00:37:51.160 But it's a very appealing position.

00:37:55.080 Of course. Well, it's distancing, right? And actually, I think the therapy language

00:37:58.780 talk and insertion is often distancing rather than relational, rather than engaging. It's like,

00:38:06.400 well, again, my boundary, my cutoff, my whatever. I think it's inherently distancing.

00:38:11.580 Yeah, instead of owning, like, whatever feeling it's making you feel and irrationality, right?

00:38:19.240 Because irrationality can feel very disempowering in all of these different ways, right?

00:38:24.120 Totally messy.

00:38:25.680 Something that happens all the time.

00:38:28.060 Okay, last question is about work.

00:38:30.560 And I think this is a tough one.

00:38:33.140 This is from someone who we'll just call S.

00:38:37.040 What are reasonable boundaries to have around therapy speak in the workplace?

00:38:40.440 I feel like in the education slash nonprofit sector, therapy speak is abound in efforts to support ethical, accountable, trauma-informed work, but then it gets a little awkward when you have an executive director or professional development consultant who isn't necessarily a therapist, but is asking people to access their deep feelings in front of coworkers in order to increase their impact at work.

00:39:03.980 It feels like this interpretation of DEI work that puts individual effort over systemic change can result in people being asked to bring their personal hardships and trauma to the forefront of their professional identities in order to, quote, show up better in the work.

00:39:20.620 But, like, my employer isn't paying for actual therapy.

00:39:24.100 I feel like I am being asked to bleed out for the mission statement without any aftercare, and it is impacting my mental health.

00:39:31.500 Oh, God.

00:39:31.940 this person is saying like okay these kind of dei initiatives are part of this larger project where

00:39:39.080 everything in the workplace is actually about making better workers like people who

00:39:44.780 function better under capitalism right so that like not so that we can be better people

00:39:51.540 necessarily it's more like productivity based so that you can yeah right and not so that you like

00:39:58.300 change any structures at the job but that's so anything you know bigger or more impactful in that

00:40:04.940 way but it's just sort of like you need to look into your soul and see what's there yeah and you

00:40:10.680 as the individual worker right exactly yeah the dei part of it is like one whole big messy thing

00:40:18.620 but just this idea of the like therapy and work is so alarming to me somebody very close to me

00:40:27.520 works at a place like had to do a whole Brene Brown like vulnerability thing which is so

00:40:34.340 and I mean I think Brene Brown who I do kind of like she's cool she put vulnerability on the map

00:40:41.180 and shame on the map yeah but she's like she does a lot of like workplace things and I'm just like

00:40:45.860 I don't it doesn't seem to me that the workplace is a place where you should or often can be

00:40:51.860 vulnerable like it's just you're really ignoring um the inherent power dynamics there when you're

00:40:57.740 like kind of demanding that your employees kind of open up i've actually seen now that you say

00:41:03.240 that rachel i've seen a rise of you know and we talked about this within our podcast too like

00:41:07.380 um there's a cap when you're a therapist you can only see a certain amount of clients a week and

00:41:12.560 you know per your availability and and bandwidth etc bandwidth um so i understand why people want

00:41:18.740 to like mass scale it make it different like have different avenues but it's such a like tricky

00:41:24.420 thing I've seen this rise of people who have private practices be like hire me as a you know

00:41:30.300 cultural consultant at your workplace or I'll come do therapy groups at your workplace like as you

00:41:35.700 know they just advertise on their site who knows if they're actually doing it but I'm like

00:41:38.900 to what end like what are you doing um and this question made me so happy not to be in a corporate

00:41:46.580 setting i'm sorry it reminds me there is this incredible comedian on instagram i'll link to her

00:41:54.460 in the show notes who does well she does american girl stuff but then she also does non-profit boss

00:42:00.200 like she just does like your non-profit boss when you ask for like your pto like how she declines it 0.98

00:42:07.020 and it's like because the power structures particularly at non-profits are often so

00:42:14.380 ostensibly flat but actually not flat at all the way that they use this sort of like speak to not

00:42:22.420 only guilt you into the fact that like i'm declining your pto request but here's all the

00:42:28.560 reasons why you should feel guilty for even asking right right because of the mission because

00:42:34.460 mission oriented you need to bleed out the mission yeah right exactly all that sort of thing and i

00:42:39.900 It reminds me, too, that oftentimes in these organizations, the real problem is just the person in leadership or a person, like a person that is completely making things difficult for everyone else.

00:42:55.540 But no one wants to do the work of just firing that person or replacing that person. 0.81

00:42:59.680 And so instead, you have these workshops that cause everyone to go through all this other shit. 0.97

00:43:04.260 Totally.

00:43:04.560 And I think there's like a wild difference between direct engagement, anti-harassment, like if something is actually going on in the workplace that is like not okay, addressing that hopefully with an HR person present and not just some outside consultant only, but like asking people to kind of like engender the values of the business and cultural humility from the perspective of like this one consultant to build a culture that is diverse and inclusive, which we want all spaces to be.

00:43:34.200 is just like not gonna you're not gonna get there doing that and then I and often you know when I

00:43:40.140 have very rarely been in spaces whether it's like a a training ceu type of thing I've done like

00:43:45.660 doctorate coursework where like sometimes we get into the conversations where it's like oh my god

00:43:50.160 can you please join an affinity group because like you know Miranda you're taking up 90 percent of

00:43:55.920 like this group discussion because you're just learning anti-racist ideas in here meanwhile all 0.98

00:44:03.000 the people of color in the room are like silent it's just like oftentimes there should be an 0.98

00:44:07.900 affinity group requirement or some other way to engage with us it's not just like forced down the 0.65

00:44:13.640 throats of people in a workshop and like awkwardly so right and like and to your point like what is

00:44:20.460 the point of the workshop is it is it to check a box is it to like make everybody feel better

00:44:27.940 is it like yeah assuage some manager's guilt or to like have the manager like manager who like

00:44:34.840 wants more of you in some weird sinister way which i think a lot of times it is well and especially

00:44:40.620 non-profits like this like getting around the fact that like we don't pay you enough and we

00:44:46.000 don't give enough like we do not provide benefits so that you can pay for your own therapy right

00:44:52.360 right exactly like and insurance sucks like yeah it often doesn't cover it we're gonna get around

00:44:59.860 that by doing this like trauma-informed workshop or trying to like institute trauma-informed

00:45:04.480 management right right yeah and shoehorning anti-racist like you know unconscious bias

00:45:10.900 uncovering work in front of co-workers which is like you know not to be overly fragile about it

00:45:16.500 but sometimes that's just not appropriate.

00:45:18.580 Like that can be deep and traumatizing.

00:45:22.180 Here I go.

00:45:23.160 But work, like you don't really want to be witnessed

00:45:25.540 by like your, you know, cubicle mate.

00:45:28.160 I don't know.

00:45:28.800 And then again, what work is really being done?

00:45:30.800 It feels like, you know, to both of your points,

00:45:32.760 the like visible labor that some managers or CEOs require

00:45:36.600 just to like check that box.

00:45:39.080 Yeah.

00:45:39.460 And the idea that like work should be a part

00:45:41.400 of like every single part of your life,

00:45:43.520 but also of your psyche.

00:45:45.880 Yeah.

00:45:46.120 Yeah.

00:45:46.280 and and also that you could just maybe like not like your job or not like going to work that's

00:45:51.980 not pathological you know like that's not something that needs to sort of be fixed or

00:45:57.280 you're like it's annoying to me to be here or you don't need to be like bffs with everyone like if

00:46:02.120 you yeah you can't fix all relational modes at work when you might just like not like your

00:46:06.920 co-workers that much and you have other areas that like flex your relational muscles yeah it's a job

00:46:13.260 there's a reason they call it a job you know it feels like the new like remember that we're a

00:46:17.660 family stuff that people like put the kibosh on really quickly yeah and or you know work to

00:46:24.060 identify it this feels like the new like let's work on this together let's do this this feels

00:46:28.980 like the new like no we're gonna you know we're gonna make you stay longer because this took up

00:46:33.000 three hours of your work day on an idle tuesday but like it'll be in the togetherness realm and

00:46:38.340 we'll you know fix institutions but and to your point sometimes it's just like the ceo needs to

00:46:43.560 like do the work or something right like oh maybe our board shouldn't be all white right

00:46:47.620 okay so our last question is a special new year's day edition of asking anything and when i first

00:46:58.060 read it i thought i didn't have any advice about this but after this conversation i think it's

00:47:03.840 actually going to be really interesting so listeners if you want to hear it head on over

00:47:07.660 to culturestudypod.substack.com and become a paid subscriber. Okay. Final question is what is the

00:47:13.980 therapy speak word that you find yourself using all the time and that you might not know? And you

00:47:19.840 can, you, you can say it for each other too. If you have, I know, right. Do we know this for each

00:47:24.160 other? I don't know. I feel like you're good at your, Ash like says it in quotes. Like when she

00:47:31.240 uses it. She always raises her voice like it's in quotes. I mean, I don't want to be too kind

00:47:38.280 to myself, but I feel like I'm pretty good at not using them in therapy speak ways.

00:47:43.900 Yeah. But you have some manifest in you. You have some manifest in me. Yeah. What do we call that?

00:47:50.100 I think you would maybe use, you would describe it in a different way. Yeah. I probably like

00:47:54.900 appropriate or misappropriate like Buddhist culture by accident, not knowing, you know,

00:47:59.640 like visualization techniques i probably do more of that toxically haha than i do like i don't i

00:48:06.920 don't tend to overuse the word trauma or gaslight or narcissist because well for different reasons

00:48:12.160 i can i know why that would be dangerous to overuse maybe boundary is the only one i probably

00:48:17.040 use like yeah yeah what do i i'm sure you know more than me i also feel like because of your

00:48:23.140 work you're careful too to like misuse oh I'm always diagnosing everybody in my mind I'm just

00:48:30.840 not putting it I'm just usually not saying it out loud that's your toxic trait is that you're

00:48:35.460 always misdiagnosing everyone Rachel that's why I need a boundary around time with you

00:48:39.500 because you're always diagnosing me Melody what one do you use all the time

00:48:44.100 I'm trying to think I feel like oh you know what mine is is projection

00:48:50.280 oh yeah that's a good one that's a really good one but it's always used correctly

00:48:56.940 yeah yes exactly yeah i believe you the the bad one that i use is um and it's i got it from

00:49:05.360 my partner's describing his therapist's language is recruiting say it in a say it in context so

00:49:14.420 you're recruiting that behavior or you're recruiting that feedback right like yeah kind

00:49:21.260 of in a leading way yeah or like this is what you have been you have internalized this understanding

00:49:28.260 of how like a behavior should be rewarded right so you're recruiting other people to behave in

00:49:35.460 this way or like yeah yeah that's given yeah recruiting um well this has been fantastic uh

00:49:45.480 now i'm gonna be very self-conscious as i go about my day um thank you so much for joining me for the

00:49:51.180 first episode of culture study pod in 2025 that's exciting where can people find both of you like

00:49:57.440 more of you individually and more of bad therapist we are on bad therapist is on instagram and of

00:50:03.720 course you can find us wherever you get your finest podcasts and i write for the new yorker

00:50:09.820 all my stuff's up there and our instagram is bad therapist at bad therapist pod at bad therapist

00:50:16.020 at yeah we have to say that otherwise it doesn't count thank you so much this has been great thank

00:50:23.420 you thanks thanks so much for listening to the culture study podcast be sure to subscribe

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Culture Study Podcast - January 01, 2025

The Rise of Therapy Speak

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