Culture Study Podcast - We know sitting is bad for us. But what are we supposed to do instead？

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00:01:11.100 So I am going to do something kind of dirty right now.

00:01:14.840 And I'm going to ask you, how are you sitting right now?

00:01:18.640 Oh, my God.

00:01:19.080 I'm so uncomfortable, Anne.

00:01:20.360 I'm sitting at my husband's desk in the basement because my daughter's home sick.

00:01:27.200 So I'm next to like his Peloton and like basically in the man cave, I guess.

00:01:33.980 Really not feeling the feels down here.

00:01:36.600 Desperate to go back to my little office, which is a few blocks away.

00:01:39.920 But, you know, kid, sick, all those things.

00:01:42.620 So I came up with this idea because I was so embarrassed of how I'm currently sitting,

00:01:47.940 which i am sitting on one of these little stools that has like the the butt imprint that's trying

00:01:56.160 to tell you you know where your butt's supposed to go do you know what i'm talking about no like

00:02:00.260 contoured it's not comfortable at all and the my computer is on what should be like a stand for a 0.94

00:02:07.740 tv and like i'm sideways creeping in on my mic because i have to be close enough to my mic i

00:02:14.240 think anyone who tries to record podcasts in spaces that are not studios is familiar with

00:02:20.380 like, yes, the weird maneuvering, yes, the weird maneuvering over your body that you

00:02:26.600 have to do. And usually when I'm recording, like, at least one, if not both of my legs

00:02:32.580 falls completely asleep. And you have to maneuver around to try to make it so that like, you

00:02:36.820 can make it go on asleep, but not have that pickup on the audio. It's just it's not good

00:02:42.980 for me. I can tell. Like, it hurts me. But you know what? I think we should sell this to the

00:02:47.580 listeners that our physical agitation is going to result in some extremely acute analysis.

00:02:54.600 And also that we are not like amazing sitters who are here to tell you exactly how you should sit.

00:03:05.420 This is the Culture Study Podcast, and I'm Anne Helen Peterson.

00:03:08.760 And I'm Manoush Zomorodi, host of NPR's TED Radio Hour, author of the book Boredom Brilliant,

00:03:16.140 mother to two humans, one dog in Brooklyn.

00:03:21.020 So we're talking about sitting today.

00:03:24.160 And before we talk a lot about the work that you have done on sitting, I just want I think

00:03:30.520 there are going to be some people who are like, how is sitting part of culture?

00:03:34.280 And I kind of think of like sitting, like the discourse around sitting.

00:03:39.340 Like we have all these conversations about how we sit, how we shouldn't sit, why it's

00:03:44.520 bad that we sit.

00:03:45.560 But I would be curious to hear your thoughts here.

00:03:48.240 Oh, 100%.

00:03:49.180 I am obsessed with sitting, obsessed with sitting and not sitting, actually.

00:03:55.340 And I would say that sitting is very much culture because it is our default.

00:03:59.860 Come on in.

00:04:00.660 Take a seat.

00:04:01.560 Oh, let's hang out on the couch.

00:04:03.240 Want to sit down?

00:04:04.280 We're, you know, it's just what we do when we go to school, we go to work, we travel anywhere. We freaking press down on our two buttocks and put them there. And I, you know, for me, it was really over the pandemic that I was like, I can't do this anymore. It's killing me. But it was like, well, so what's stopping you? 0.98

00:04:26.620 what's stopping me is I have to be attached to my laptop. That is what is stopping me.

00:04:32.600 And so I've been, my recent quest, I go on many quests to try and understand how we can live

00:04:38.540 better with our technology. That has been my recent quest to alleviate some of the real

00:04:43.680 physical discomfort that all this sitting in screen time has made so many of us have.

00:04:49.820 So I would love to hear the story of you going to the lab at Columbia

00:04:54.320 to have your vital signs monitored.

00:04:57.420 Can you tell us that?

00:04:58.640 Totally.

00:04:59.300 So like I said, over the pandemic,

00:05:01.980 I got a little obsessed with trying to understand

00:05:04.300 how our technology was physically impacting us.

00:05:07.400 Like I wanted to understand,

00:05:08.820 are we physically adapting to our technology?

00:05:11.780 Like are my grandchildren going to have very long thumbs

00:05:15.180 or something like that?

00:05:16.760 Well, the good news is no, our DNA isn't changing.

00:05:20.020 However, this whole sitting is the new smoking thing

00:05:23.960 it's not a terrible comparison. Obviously, smoking will kill you much faster. But sitting

00:05:31.460 for a long time is really not good for you. And I read a really interesting study that was done

00:05:39.080 in January 2023 by a bunch of researchers at Columbia University Medical Center that basically

00:05:44.980 found that the best, most efficient way that they have found to disrupt some of the effects of

00:05:53.280 sitting all day is by taking five minute gentle walking breaks every half hour. So working out

00:06:02.980 in the morning, if you're going to sit all day, sorry, don't stop working out, but it's not going

00:06:09.100 to mitigate the harmful effects of sitting. Getting a standing desk, turns out the jury's

00:06:13.980 out on that one. If you're not moving, you're not getting your blood flowing. And so I was kind of

00:06:21.240 like, well, that seems doable. Is it doable? I don't know. Five minutes every half hour. What

00:06:28.680 does that include? So I reached out to Keith Diaz, the head researcher at the exercise lab

00:06:35.320 at Columbia. And I was like, should we ask people if they can actually do this? And he was like,

00:06:41.800 yes, yes. Because what is the point of me doing all this research if it only works in the lab?

00:06:47.660 If people can't actually implement breaks into their day, then we got to start over.

00:06:54.100 Clearly, it shouldn't be the gold standard.

00:06:55.800 No one can do it.

00:06:57.380 So as part of my investigation into this, he invited me to come to the lab and do two

00:07:04.560 days.

00:07:05.340 So one day, I sat at a desk with my laptop and worked for eight hours straight.

00:07:13.360 Not totally.

00:07:14.700 I was allowed to go to the bathroom.

00:07:16.320 I had all kinds of monitors attached to me, you know, measuring my heart rate, my blood pressure.

00:07:22.840 We also did glucose measurements. And I took, you know, like surveys up the wazoo about my

00:07:28.920 concentration and all sorts of things. And then a week later, I came back and every half hour,

00:07:36.960 a lab technician would tap me on the shoulder and put me on a treadmill that was set to two

00:07:43.040 miles per hour. So not fast. Um, and I would walk and, uh, I did that all day and they took

00:07:51.600 the exact same measurements and it was, you know, relatively controlled. I ate the exact same meals.

00:07:56.980 Um, I tried to wear the same clothes just for consistency sake. I had the same amount of work

00:08:01.820 to do. Um, and the results were pretty fascinating. I cut my blood sugar in half.

00:08:08.720 My blood pressure was down by five points. And this was the weirdest. I rated my work quality

00:08:16.160 as better, despite the fact that I had been interrupted all the time. And I was definitely

00:08:23.460 had a better mood at the end of the day. And I just had more energy when I left. I was like,

00:08:29.320 all right, what should we do? Whereas the time before I was like, oh my God, I just have to go

00:08:33.540 home and lie down on the couch. Um, I mean, it sounds familiar, right? Like after a day of being

00:08:38.740 on Slack and whatever, you're like, I just want to watch Netflix. Which is just more sitting,

00:08:43.680 right? But maybe in like a slightly more like horizontal scenario. So, and tell me about the

00:08:52.540 body electric project. Yeah. So we, um, ended up inviting, this was a, a series that I ended up

00:08:59.880 doing with NPR, where as part of it, we did episodes looking at how different parts of your

00:09:05.500 body are adapting to your technology, like your eyeballs, your posture. But we also invited people

00:09:12.020 to partner with us and Columbia Medical University to see if we can get these walking breaks into

00:09:18.440 our lives. So we asked people who participated and 23,000 people signed up to do it, which was

00:09:25.760 right? I know. People are feeling this. We asked them to sign up to take a five-minute break every

00:09:32.380 two hours, every one hour, or every half hour. This was the first time, and this was really

00:09:39.060 exciting for me because I've done these interactive projects before, but this was the first time that

00:09:43.920 we were collecting real data. We left the data to the experts. I did the storytelling. They did the

00:09:51.120 data collection. And they are, you know, the hope is that this year, they will publish in the actual

00:09:57.720 scientific journal, peer reviewed the whole jam. But meanwhile, the preliminary results were pretty

00:10:04.100 fascinating. I didn't think anyone would be able to do this. But and it is hard. That is what they

00:10:10.480 found. Many participants struggled. But half, whether you see the glass is half full or empty,

00:10:17.080 half were able to take movement breaks every half hour. That was actually more than I expected.

00:10:24.300 The breaks did not hurt job performance. People felt more engaged with their work

00:10:29.100 and their mental health was better. On average, they reported feeling 25%

00:10:36.260 less fatigued at the end of the day. I mean, that makes total sense to me.

00:10:40.900 So much of this meshes with my thinking about like, and a lot of other scientists and studies

00:10:46.820 that we've seen about how long concentration can last, right? So it's almost like, it's like your

00:10:51.980 body gives, your body needs this break and your mind needs it too. So it actually works really

00:10:58.480 well to have a break in there that allows you to reset your mind and reset your body in that way.

00:11:04.820 Well, actually that brings up a really good point, which is that we did not tell people what to do

00:11:09.480 during their break. Like if you want to be on a Zoom call and walk, knock yourself out. If you

00:11:16.140 want to walk around the neighborhood and look at, you know, the birds go for it. So I think that

00:11:22.780 actually, and I'm sure this will be in the data that they're, you know, there's just mounds of

00:11:26.740 it that they're digging through, but what did you do with your time? I think is a great question.

00:11:31.920 Cause for some people, like maybe they're like, this works great for me. I just do it during my

00:11:36.580 zoom calls. Other people are like, no, actually I do. I need this mental break. I think I heard

00:11:42.040 from a lot of people who are like, this is, I don't have to clean my house anymore. I use the

00:11:45.640 five minutes to just go around and micro-task. My dogs would be so appreciative of this. They'd

00:11:52.160 be like, every half hour we get pets? That's amazing. Well, I do have to ask. I read your

00:11:57.780 newsletter. You're pretty active. You have a lot of things going on in your life. Would this fit

00:12:03.860 for you or does this sound daunting? No, I think I do some version of it actually on most days.

00:12:09.860 and a lot of that has to do with being able to work from home yeah I think that when I worked

00:12:15.960 in an office I did very very little of this right and and so much of that had to do with being on

00:12:23.860 the 15th floor and having to badge in and out and like when you leave the office in New York it's

00:12:29.480 just either get me the hell out of here yeah no but it's like you're you're in Union Square and

00:12:35.600 it's either freezing or so humid right like it never felt like an environment that I wanted to

00:12:41.260 be out in uh in some capacity and now I oftentimes especially when I'm writing or I'm reading

00:12:48.120 I'll take a I can only concentrate for that long anyway and then I'll be like oh I want to go look

00:12:53.780 at my flowers right or oh I'm like I'm gonna go pet the dog or whatever so I think in some ways

00:13:00.420 that I already have some version of this in place, but I think more mindfulness about it

00:13:05.700 would benefit me. But I do think like, you know, you kind of gestured at this, but people have a

00:13:10.880 lot of feelings about their sitting and what is allowed or where there's space for it in their

00:13:17.720 jobs. So what were some of the feelings that you heard from people who were participating in the

00:13:23.520 study? Well, let's go with the negative ones first. People saying that, you know, this just

00:13:29.120 was disruptive to my colleagues, me getting up and going around, or my boss would never go for this,

00:13:36.660 or, you know, I work in retail. It's not an option for me. So absolutely, there are structural

00:13:45.940 impediments to this. There were some teachers who were like, I can't, you know, I only get

00:13:52.840 40 minutes with these kids. How am I going to interrupt? And what am I going to do? Like go

00:13:57.260 for a walk in the middle of it. So for sure, we heard from people who said that. And we, you know,

00:14:03.300 tried to point out that, yes, this is a culture shift that has to happen. And we have to play

00:14:11.580 the long game in terms of understanding that we are in the midst of a very slow, but pretty steady

00:14:20.500 health crisis that's going on here. And the World Health Organization estimates that if we stay as

00:14:27.900 sedentary as we are now, nearly 500 million people are going to develop heart disease, obesity,

00:14:33.660 diabetes this decade. It's going to cost governments billions and billions of dollars.

00:14:39.520 It's going to cost you, bosses who are listening, a lot more money when it comes to health premiums.

00:14:44.920 Now, you know, is it money that's the only reason?

00:14:47.520 Obviously not.

00:14:48.820 But there are long-term ways.

00:14:52.860 And if we can show in the short term that your employees will be more, actually more efficient, happier, less tired, do better work, then my hope would be that there would be more reasons for people to do it.

00:15:07.080 on the plus side people get weird and creative and like there were some people who were like

00:15:14.240 I just had like a freaking five minute dance party every hour and it made me so happy I just

00:15:19.880 listen to music I don't listen to enough or teachers who implemented walking around the

00:15:27.120 room and like a conversation walking conversation and you know kids get into it and they got really

00:15:32.980 upset. It's time for our break. Other people saw, uh, teachers said that they saw better

00:15:37.720 concentration actually by having more breaks, especially like, well, you know, teachers like

00:15:42.620 who are teaching a three hour college course and you get that one break in the middle. Yeah. So

00:15:47.880 now they, one person started having these every half hour and they said, just people just stayed

00:15:53.460 with her way better and they love, and they would come to people. So, um, another person decided

00:15:59.900 that her least favorite tasks, this was actually a pediatrician who said that she'd never heard of

00:16:05.220 any of this. And that actually during the day, she's really busy. She's checking her patients,

00:16:09.940 walking back and forth, but it's at night when she has to update all the insurance forms and

00:16:14.220 all the casework on her laptop that she gets depressed and has no energy to do something

00:16:20.160 after those four hours that she has to put in. So she's like, I'm going to do this. And like I said,

00:16:24.920 that's really helping her. Another person built a chair that dumps her onto the ground

00:16:30.160 every hour. So clearly an architecture student, design student. So yeah. So you gotta, I think,

00:16:42.000 but to me, the main message is like asking yourself, like, what do I feel when I do this?

00:16:50.120 What do I feel when I don't do this? How can I help myself today and for my long-term health

00:16:59.460 as well? Okay, but I think one question that a lot of people listening are going to have

00:17:04.520 is what about people who can't not sit? Like maybe they're disabled or they have

00:17:11.180 intense caregiving requirements that keep them seated or they're a long-haul truck driver.

00:17:16.340 Whatever the reason, constant sitting isn't totally a choice.

00:17:21.580 So did you hear from anyone in those categories?

00:17:24.420 Or what does the research tell us about other measures that people can take to mitigate all of this sitting?

00:17:29.720 Yes, absolutely.

00:17:30.980 If people cannot get up and walk around, there are lots of other things you can do, like chair exercises.

00:17:37.880 The key thing is to get your blood moving and your muscles moving.

00:17:41.320 So that can be rotations in your chair.

00:17:44.120 That can be leg lifts in your chair.

00:17:45.940 that can be stretching in your chair.

00:17:48.660 The idea is just get your heart rate up,

00:17:51.080 get moving, feel the muscles pumping

00:17:54.720 like they need to be doing,

00:17:56.220 not just staying static.

00:17:58.040 Now, look, if you drive for a living,

00:18:00.000 and we did hear from people like that,

00:18:01.900 safety comes first,

00:18:02.920 but taking regular breaks at the truck stop,

00:18:07.100 not just pulling over and getting something to drink,

00:18:10.740 but taking a walk around the parking lot.

00:18:13.560 So yeah, there are definitely things you can do.

00:18:15.940 Okay, so we got some really great questions from culture study listeners about sitting

00:18:20.900 and specifically trying to sit less, right?

00:18:24.200 So this question from Monica is going to set the stage for us. 0.90

00:18:27.220 What's the deal with all this stand up for one minute or take 250 steps once each hour 1.00

00:18:33.980 business?

00:18:34.980 Is there science behind that?

00:18:37.200 Or is it arbitrary, like the 10,000 steps per day recommendation?

00:18:42.740 Okay, so I want to say we've already talked about the science, right?

00:18:45.940 But I do, I understand the skepticism, especially when we all learned that the 10,000 steps

00:18:53.860 per day was bunk, right?

00:18:55.940 That was actually a made up benchmark used to sell pedometers.

00:18:59.220 So how do we deal with some of that skepticism?

00:19:05.120 Like how do, yeah, like how do we, how do we communicate this?

00:19:08.620 Well, here's the thing is like, yes, the five minutes every half hour, this is like, they've

00:19:15.480 shown it in the lab. It is published research. Here's why I think this project did so well

00:19:21.500 is because it was prescriptive. It was a dose. It was saying like, if you're sitting for these

00:19:29.960 long, these periods of time, this is the dosage that we recommend. And I think that that's what

00:19:35.860 we're looking for these days, right? Like everyone just wants to be told like, okay, fine, fine,

00:19:39.640 fine. Yes. Just tell me what to do. And people, there are some people who took that to the

00:19:45.060 extremes. Like people were like, okay, I've pulled over onto the side of the road to get my five

00:19:50.400 minutes. And it's like, okay, you know, just use your, your autonomy and have a little common

00:19:55.860 sense. Um, and don't get yourself killed on the side of the road. Like clearly there are times

00:20:01.060 that it's appropriate and times there are not. Um, so I guess to your listener, I would say like

00:20:06.840 there is science behind some of it. And actually I don't think the 10,000 steps thing is bunk.

00:20:13.340 it was pulled out of the air to sell pedometers. And they have found scientifically at what point

00:20:19.420 your health maxes out. Like in terms of like for a woman, I think it's like, I don't even know,

00:20:26.200 six and a half thousand or something. They've figured out like at that point, like you don't

00:20:29.720 get as much benefit, but you know what? I've done my own self-study and I only feel really

00:20:36.560 sleep well if I get 11,000 to 12,000. I've been tracking my steps for years and I have noticed

00:20:44.500 what has happened. I sound like such a Tim Ferriss bro optimizer. Please tell Charlie I

00:20:52.940 referenced him. There's a little bit of bro in me that loves the self-optimizing. I think for me,

00:21:00.560 Like killing it in the gym makes me tired the rest of the day, but having, walking throughout

00:21:08.020 my day for five to six miles is optimum for me.

00:21:12.080 And I think each of us, like if you're, if you're gonna, if you're that persnickety,

00:21:17.580 like there are other people who don't need to be so regimented, more power to you.

00:21:22.480 But if you do want a dosage, you need to experiment and see what works for you.

00:21:27.580 Totally.

00:21:28.220 You know, it's funny.

00:21:28.880 i think that so much of modern exercise is super weird like sometimes you know like peloton is a

00:21:35.720 bike that literally goes nowhere right um and they like joke about that they're like you're

00:21:41.300 doing amazing on this bike that goes nowhere or even something like lifting weights right or

00:21:46.520 crossfit where you are simulating all of these activities that are actually things that we used

00:21:51.480 to do outside as part of our like as manual labor right and yes the way that we've come

00:21:57.380 to regiment our lives is that we have to pack all of the exercise and all of the activity into

00:22:04.340 a segment of time, right? So that then the rest of the day can be like productivity mindset where

00:22:12.220 we are only doing work all of the time instead of maybe thinking about ways in which those things

00:22:17.220 can be integrated, right? And I think like I absolutely acknowledge all the ways in which

00:22:23.740 working from home is like an incredible privilege and it's only afforded people in certain types of

00:22:28.440 jobs. At the same time, one of the things that I think is revelatory about it is trying to figure

00:22:33.900 out, okay, what works for me in terms of moving my body in ways that make me feel good, right?

00:22:39.300 Whether it's doing something like five minutes or also I want to do my run in the middle of the day

00:22:44.420 and that doesn't actually affect my work. If anything, it makes me a better worker in the

00:22:48.600 afternoon when usually I have a real slump of energy and I think that thinking about these

00:22:54.500 things and the fact that like the way we have organized work is not stable right like it is

00:22:59.980 never the how we thought about work in 2020 before the pandemic and our assumptions about how work

00:23:06.080 had to be done you know we busted those and we've busted them at various points we used to have

00:23:10.900 every single job used to have smoke breaks I totally totally yes I love this example totally

00:23:17.840 and we used to be like oh no he's out on a smoke break that's cool well what if we were out on a 0.93

00:23:22.300 walk break you know right right well and this is also you know i was explaining actually to a six

00:23:28.240 year old the other day about how uh like because i think a lot of there's a lot of messaging about

00:23:35.480 how smoking is bad right and they internalize that as like sometimes oh if someone smokes they're

00:23:39.740 bad and i was like no you know like my grandparents smoked your grandparents smoked everyone's

00:23:44.620 grandparents smoked a lot of people smoke now like they're not bad people it's addictive

00:23:49.020 there was different understanding of what it does to your body all these sorts of things and I think

00:23:54.840 like you know maybe this is where the comparison the like sitting is the new smoking is slightly

00:24:01.780 useful in terms of what if we start to change our thinking about something that is very accepted as

00:24:10.180 just like the way things are as the status quo. I love that. And yes, and the smoking thing also

00:24:18.460 gave you permission to not have to talk to people back in the day. And I think that's why people

00:24:23.940 like to look at their phones because they're like, I just need a minute and I don't want it

00:24:29.280 to be awkward that I actually want to excuse myself from this situation. Obviously, we've

00:24:34.460 taken that to a total extreme but i do think like i see my kids and i you know who can blame them

00:24:43.180 yes they're exhausted they they want to play a video game on their phone and i'm like my sister

00:24:49.340 calls it they're like doing a bong hit and i call it my like gin and tonic it's like you know it's

00:24:55.500 their thing to wind down and like in moderation i'm okay with having a gin and tonic once in a 0.59

00:25:02.720 while after you get home that's fine I don't know about the bong hits they're a little young for

00:25:06.100 that but like I get the sentiment right like there's a taking yourself out of a situation 0.81

00:25:11.480 to relax and it it turns out the best way to do that is to go for a pretty not not a not like

00:25:20.140 meandering stroll but a pretty you know calm walk is is a really good way to check all the boxes

00:25:26.980 hey everyone it's ann just popping in here to say thank you for listening and to ask you to

00:25:37.940 consider becoming a paid subscriber melanie and i are totally diying this whole thing without the

00:25:43.880 structure of a traditional network which has been amazing but it's also precarious this whole show

00:25:49.840 depends on people pitching in a few bucks a month and yes also those few ads i've read here and there

00:25:54.620 When people sign up, they have the option of leaving us a note about why they're subscribing, so I just wanted to read you one that we really appreciated.

00:26:02.760 John wrote us, in all caps, to say,

00:26:05.960 This is the cultural criticism I need in my everyday life, and yesterday, after listening to three eps in a row on my drive from Portland,

00:26:13.020 I spent an hour at dinner with friends demanding they take positions on Bradley Cooper and celeb philanthropy and waxing poetic about our Queen Taffy and her profile subjects.

00:26:23.520 John, this is huge praise.

00:26:25.440 We do not take it lightly.

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00:26:48.600 Okay, back to the show. 0.93

00:26:49.820 so our next question is from Erin who has received some warnings about how much she

00:26:56.620 personally sits I am a 36 year old woman with a desk job and I've been having some lumbar spine

00:27:02.760 issues I was recommended a standing desk by my PT recently an orthopedist recently told me I need

00:27:09.480 to fix my posture and interior pelvic tilt in order for my injury to be less of and I quote

00:27:15.080 a ticking time bomb. I've been practicing and focusing on a neutral pelvis for a few days now

00:27:20.720 and it's hard. Is this really natural? Why does it feel so unnatural? Have people really been

00:27:26.200 standing with a neutral pelvis, tight core, tucked butt since forever? And will I ever really fix this

00:27:32.400 after over a decade of sitting in front of a computer? All right. So I would be curious,

00:27:37.620 you referenced this earlier that the jury's still out on standing desks. So can you talk

00:27:42.500 about that a little bit? Yeah. I'm a little worried for your listener about the standing

00:27:46.880 desk. Um, because if this person is not working with someone to find their optimal posture and

00:27:55.400 are standing in a bad posture for long periods of time, my, uh, understanding and sense is that

00:28:03.740 actually could cause other problems down the line. So putting that out there, um, I should also say

00:28:11.280 that I am dabbling in getting certified for Pilates. And so I think a lot about the

00:28:18.500 pelvic tilt, the neutral pelvis and all those things a ton. And I have like this person,

00:28:27.200 I feel like I want to hug you because I totally get exactly what you're talking about. And

00:28:31.300 my new thing, and, and I haven't told anybody this, the only person knows is people who are

00:28:37.060 like, Oh, mom's doing her weird thing. I'm doing somatic exercises, somatic course. I don't know

00:28:44.320 if you know much about it. Yeah. Not a ton, but I know, I know what it is, but can you explain to

00:28:48.640 listeners? Yeah. So there's some people who think, you know, it's, it's about how you move your body

00:28:53.940 relates to emotions you feel. That is not the somatic stuff that I'm looking into. My, I think

00:28:59.840 that I have learned, ingrained in me bad habits of the way I sit and move in ways that are hurting

00:29:07.700 my back. And what I'm trying to do is retrain my brain to understand what is, as this person said,

00:29:16.360 neutral, what is the correct, something is not something I think it had to do with having a

00:29:23.960 baby who nearly busted my abdominal muscles and I never quite got back to normal. And so I'm trying,

00:29:30.340 it's basically very, I'm lying on the floor, listening to a very calm woman telling me to

00:29:35.820 breathe into my belly and then very slowly roll onto my sacrum. So that's like the bones right

00:29:42.440 above your tailbone and then very slowly move back and that's it. So trying for my brain to

00:29:52.580 understand that it has control over how I hold my pelvis. And I'm only on week two here. And so

00:30:00.860 the journey, I'm enjoying the journey. And I hope that the destination is, you know,

00:30:07.400 relieve some of my pain. And I look, I see myself in pictures and I'm like, oh my God,

00:30:11.980 you look like a freaking turtle with your neck jutted out and your rounded shoulders. And like 0.97

00:30:16.720 something is, maybe that is where the emotional thing comes in. I don't know, but I'm holding

00:30:21.560 myself in ways that hurt and I want to unlearn that so not a professional but very much a fan

00:30:29.080 the the way that I realize that I'm holding tension in my body and some of that's from

00:30:35.440 sitting in like the like you know uh laptop neck and all that sort of thing but if I do

00:30:42.000 a meditation like a peloton meditation which I love and the way that they like have you do the

00:30:47.440 body scan and release your body I always feel like I didn't even know that I was holding that

00:30:53.320 so tense until someone told me to breathe into it yeah I think the the other thing that I sometimes

00:30:59.320 think we fall into this trap of thinking like before we had computers you know our bodies were

00:31:06.260 built for the labor that we did and that is like bodies have been busted for a really long time

00:31:13.260 and they got busted by industrialization and what we expected of bodies to do in factories

00:31:20.040 and then before that like I think about if you were doing manual labor like people's bodies got

00:31:26.400 hurt a lot they were in really bad shape we didn't have PT we didn't have occupational therapy

00:31:33.260 you know we didn't have understandings of how the body should work we had some intuition

00:31:37.920 but like there was a lot of pain and a lot of struggle and we are working on a much more refined

00:31:45.860 level about what we know and how we can treat these things but I think sometimes it's easy to

00:31:51.240 think oh well if I just didn't sit at a computer my body would be fine and that's not the case

00:31:55.980 yeah no and I think what you're saying is like in you know the industrial age and factories and

00:32:01.900 working on farms what we were talking about like is acute pain and um injury right like oh he lost

00:32:09.580 a freaking finger but what we're talking about now is like decades in the making which is really

00:32:15.200 hard for our on-demand society to even engage with and honestly i didn't until um until i had 0.96

00:32:23.420 a big birthday and i started to feel my mortality and to and i danced my ass off on my birthday and

00:32:30.720 I could barely walk the next day. And I was like, what is happening? So it's this idea that yet we

00:32:38.480 all know that like, yes, well, except for the last couple of years, generally people are living

00:32:43.160 longer if you are privileged enough to live in certain ways and have healthcare and all of those

00:32:48.740 things. But like, I don't want to live longer badly. I actually want to be able to do stuff.

00:32:56.460 So it started to come home for me, but I understand why if you're 25 years old, you're like, what are you even talking about? I went for a run. I'm good.

00:33:05.600 Yeah, absolutely. I had this thing recently where I'm like, why? Every time that I go to a new hotel, an Airbnb, a friend's house, I wake up and my back hurts. I never had that happen when I was younger.

00:33:20.580 It's like, it's the same back. It's the same best.

00:33:25.160 I know. I know.

00:33:26.480 Okay. So our next question gets into more of the practicalities of movement during the workday. So

00:33:31.580 this is from Miriam. In a recent New York Times work advice column, someone asked Roxanne Gay

00:33:36.340 about whether it was appropriate to walk on a desk treadmill with your camera on during a call.

00:33:41.860 And Gay sort of said, I mean, norms have changed. And I found that so interesting because I still

00:33:46.920 feel like it's, quote, not appropriate to be bouncing around in a call as you walk on the

00:33:51.160 treadmill. Would love to know more about these norms. Where do we stand with this as a society?

00:33:55.960 Oh my God, I totally remember that. And I'm going to answer with some of your own words,

00:34:01.900 which you put in an op-ed in the LA Times. You said, our institutions need to encourage

00:34:06.820 anyone who wants to change their relationship with their chair and devices. So yeah, what do

00:34:12.820 you think about norms? Is it okay to take a call on a treadmill desk? Well, I mean, we know that

00:34:20.140 the owner of Salesforce takes all his calls, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, on either the

00:34:25.300 Stairmaster or the other one that looks like you're running in place, but you're not. I like

00:34:31.060 that one. The elliptical. The elliptical, yes. Well, so he's one of the richest people in the

00:34:37.060 world and owns the company. So obviously he can do whatever he wants. But again, I think that's

00:34:42.680 exactly what we need to do. And I so love that Roxane Gay endorses, which is that if you're

00:34:47.880 bopping back and forth on a Zoom, my hope is that we get to a point where people are like,

00:34:53.120 oh yeah, I'll do that too. And we all kind of do it. It just has to be normal, right? Like you said

00:34:59.540 before, it used to be normal that we'd stand outside and have sticks of tobacco that we would

00:35:03.880 light and then inhale and breathe out onto everybody else. Have you ever, have you used

00:35:09.560 a treadmill desk? What are your thoughts on the treadmill desk? I have tried it out like not for

00:35:16.040 a whole day. I think it's, they're, they're very specific. Like you can't just use a treadmill and

00:35:24.340 do it. Like they are built to go incredibly slowly and cost a lot of fricking money. So

00:35:33.360 i have not invested am i curious yes you have tried i have also like you i have tried and i

00:35:42.780 i found it very awkward to try to type in particular here's what i think i like

00:35:50.400 i think this is a conversation too about norms of having camera on right and and you know there

00:35:59.980 was a conversation on my previous podcast work appropriate I'm trying to remember the specifics

00:36:05.100 but it was basically like is it fair for some people on my team to take a call or to you know

00:36:13.020 sign on to a zoom meeting from their car while they're driving and some people believed that

00:36:21.120 oh you need to have full attention at all times right and that means that you have to have all

00:36:26.120 your documents in front of you and then some people said no it doesn't matter like we're just 0.79

00:36:30.280 we're shooting the shit we're having a conversation about something like it just it doesn't matter if 0.51

00:36:35.820 they have their video their video on or off like this is making flexibility possible in their lives 0.99

00:36:40.560 right and my thinking is that there are probably some calls that maybe you shouldn't be bobbing up

00:36:48.340 and down just slightly because it's just kind of distracting so if it's a call that you really

00:36:52.740 really really need that face-to-face interaction to read each other's cues those sorts of things

00:36:58.040 then maybe that shouldn't be on the zoom call but otherwise he can turn off his camera

00:37:02.760 or he could take it while walking outside I think the like walk and talk has gotten a lot more

00:37:08.260 popular I personally love a phone call I love a phone call I tell everyone to call me on the phone

00:37:14.320 instead of instead of doing what we usually do and that allows me to go outside and talk or even

00:37:21.380 just stand outside and pace around while my dogs play at my feet so I think that like this is much

00:37:26.860 more a conversation about figuring out what sort of calls demand what sort of presence agreed with

00:37:34.220 all the things that you just said that like not every call is equal for sure but also that we

00:37:40.300 need to talk about this stuff like set expectations like is it just the check-in every morning my team

00:37:46.180 has a check-in. And we're all cameras off because we're in different time zones. And

00:37:52.660 people have just decided they can't deal. We also know that it's sensory overload for you

00:37:57.800 on Zoom to see people. So that first morning meeting, it's cameras off. But I have a once

00:38:03.040 a week meeting with two people. I need them to be bought into what we're doing. So it is sit down,

00:38:10.280 have your notes, be ready to go. And I know instinctively, I'm also in a position of having

00:38:16.080 been around for a while that I can, you know, set the tone. But I think that's really on managers

00:38:22.460 to talk about these things. What do you guys think? What should be our sort of, you know,

00:38:28.100 cultural norms that we have for our meetings? Like these are obviously things that are nagging at us

00:38:33.420 and we're sort of looking to each other for clues about what's okay and what's not. But let's just

00:38:38.740 talk about them yeah i think that that like that reaction to like being like oh maybe maybe i don't

00:38:45.580 feel comfortable with this why do i feel uncomfortable with this why does this feel

00:38:49.480 abnormal should it feel abnormal how how can we figure out how to work the flexibility and the

00:38:55.920 needs that people have into into their daily life like that that to me is really interesting

00:39:00.420 so our last question i love it it's philosophical it's right up my alley this is from carrie and

00:39:08.040 Melody's going to read it. I want to talk about walking pads and the fact that every 20-something

00:39:12.860 girl my age has been influenced on TikTok to buy one to use while working from home.

00:39:17.880 It's walking without any of the joy of being outside and looking at the world around you,

00:39:22.920 and it feels like forced double productivity. You have to both walk 20,000 steps in a day

00:39:28.440 and do a full-time job. It definitely feels like yet another step in the wrong direction

00:39:33.320 of our obsession with fitness and quote unquote health that is completely bifurcated from any

00:39:38.760 enjoyment play or practical task walking on a walking pad during work is efficient and is quite

00:39:45.080 different from hiking walking contemplatively and even going on a neighborhood jaunt while listening

00:39:49.780 to music all right so i feel caring she's awesome like like i just uh you know the whole idea double

00:39:57.400 productivity is a great phrase here that like oh well at least i'm getting in my 20 steps a day but

00:40:02.580 I'm also not taking a second away from what is understood as working hard, right? Even though

00:40:08.160 I always argue that taking a walk and hanging out in your brain is actually really, really

00:40:14.140 productive in terms of like, allowing ideas to germinate and to figure stuff out.

00:40:19.820 100%. I wrote a book about that. There is science that backs you up.

00:40:24.180 Yes. And so I think that some of the reticence maybe, you know, there's this idea that like,

00:40:31.600 oh yeah let's get into meditation because it makes us better work robots so how can we like

00:40:37.820 de-articulate some of this thinking of like oh I need to be better to my body I need to sit less

00:40:45.700 so that I can work longer right so that my body doesn't break down so I can work longer

00:40:50.620 I mean again it does feel like every generation has the people who are like optimized and the

00:40:59.880 that people are like, oh my God, let me just lie down. For me, I think we need to look at the

00:41:06.800 rising rates of depression, anxiety, loneliness, all of those things. People are not enjoying

00:41:17.200 themselves in this world as much as maybe they could. And there's a lot of reasons for that.

00:41:24.020 But based on the reporting that I did for Body Electric, there is a lot to be said,

00:41:30.560 not just for the sitting, but for the screen time and its effect on our physical and mental

00:41:37.080 well-being and those things very much connect. So to Carrie's point that the walking pad is

00:41:45.900 annoying her, 100% agree with her. However, maybe there's another person who loves the walking pad

00:41:52.800 and maybe they live somewhere where the weather is really terrible or they don't want to go out

00:41:58.560 when it's dark because they don't feel safe like whatever works for you i can only endorse and

00:42:06.040 maybe it's a mix right like walk outside when you can and when the weather's good walk on your

00:42:11.040 walking pad when you're um in a meeting that you don't really care about um have a dance party with

00:42:17.620 your dog because dogs think you're so weird and i love the look on their faces when you dance with

00:42:21.640 so they're like am i supposed to dance with you is this what we're doing is this what we're is

00:42:28.180 this what we're doing oh it's this thing that you okay okay they're kind of like i'm with you

00:42:32.720 i can't quite do what you're doing but yes um so to me it's just like get movement into your life

00:42:40.180 and i will not cast shade on anyone however they're trying to figure it out for themselves

00:42:45.960 like move your body. It's good for your brain. It's good for your muscles. It's good for your

00:42:52.360 mental health. It's good for your physical health. I hate to tell you this. I don't want to be a

00:42:57.220 productivity freak, but it will make you better at whatever work you do as well. And it will make

00:43:03.100 you more creative and better problem solver too. I think of it as the mind body tech connection.

00:43:11.100 Yeah. And we're just we're figuring it out as we go. I think this is a great place to wrap up for

00:43:17.620 today's Ask Anne Anything segment. Manusha is sticking around to answer a tough question

00:43:22.080 about what to do when it feels like your friend doesn't have time for you. This is just for our

00:43:27.220 paid subscribers. So if this sounds like a conversation you need to hear, head over to

00:43:31.580 culturestudypod.substack.com and subscribe to get the full episode. All right. So if people want to

00:43:38.580 hear more from you. They want to find all of this work. Where can we direct them?

00:43:44.080 Yes. Okay. So two podcasts. One is NPR's Ted Radio Hour. That's the regular gig there every

00:43:50.280 week talking to crazy smart people. It's very fun. But if you want to hear more about Body Electric,

00:43:56.320 that has its own feed now. So just wherever you like listening to podcasts, look for Body Electric.

00:44:02.340 And I'm trying to get into Instagram. It's not really my jam, but I kind of hang out there.

00:44:08.260 so you can come say hi to me.

00:44:09.700 I'm at Manoush EZE. 1.00

00:44:12.580 Stupid Elon ruined Twitter for me. 1.00

00:44:15.540 I know. 1.00

00:44:16.660 Sometimes I think about how many hours

00:44:18.740 that I spent building friendships

00:44:21.020 and connections on that site.

00:44:22.900 I really loved it.

00:44:24.540 I feel like I was one of the...

00:44:26.080 Yes, Twitter had its problems

00:44:28.160 but I miss what it did offer a lot.

00:44:31.740 100%.

00:44:32.260 Same.

00:44:33.740 Thank you so much for joining me today.

00:44:36.920 this has been a total pleasure and delight oh thank you so much for having me and it was

00:44:41.800 really really fun i love your work yes an honor to be part of it all right i'm gonna stop sitting

00:44:47.260 i'm gonna go stand yeah okay more than it's been we've had two 25 minute sections

00:44:51.840 thanks for listening to the culture study podcast be sure to subscribe wherever you get your

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00:45:21.760 culture study pod. If you want to support the show and get bonus content, head to culture

00:45:26.660 study pod.substack.com. It's just five bucks a month or $50 a year, and you'll get ad free

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00:46:00.320 instagram at ann helen peterson melody at melodious 47 and the show at culture study pod

Culture Study Podcast - April 03, 2024

We know sitting is bad for us. But what are we supposed to do instead？

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