Culture Study Podcast - What It's Really Like to Run a Romance Bookstore

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00:02:13.240 This is the Culture Study Podcast, and I'm Anne Helen Peterson.

00:02:17.380 I'm Leah Koch. I am one of the owners of The Ripped Bodice Bookstore in Los Angeles,

00:02:23.020 California and Brooklyn, New York. And this is my sister, Bea Hodges Koch, and I am the other

00:02:28.800 co-owner of The Ripped Bodice. We told our listeners that we were doing an episode on

00:02:33.820 romance bookstores, but we were also like pretty cagey about who the guest host would be. And so

00:02:40.860 many people DM'd me and Melody and were like, oh, please, oh, please, oh, please, is it The Ripped

00:02:45.160 Bada. So very excited to have you. We want to start. I know, right? We want to start with the

00:02:54.360 backstory. So you opened the bookstore in 2016, before what is understood as the current boom in

00:03:01.220 romance. What was the dream when you started out? I think it was to make a space that we didn't see

00:03:09.580 in the bookstore world. And that is a space for romance readers. It was it was really simple,

00:03:14.100 a really simple dream. We love bookstores. Whenever we travel, we make it a point to

00:03:19.500 seek out bookstores, especially independent bookstores. And we've been doing that since

00:03:24.560 we were little kids. Our parents are huge bookstore nerds. And when we would go to those

00:03:29.200 bookstores, we would often ask for romance. And at the time, this is very different now,

00:03:35.440 but at the time, we got a lot of pushback from specifically male booksellers

00:03:42.340 who were like we don't have that what are you talking about that's not real books that that

00:03:47.740 kind of bear in mind this is a long time ago not that long ago some time ago as young readers it's

00:03:57.140 just so demoralizing for like to go into bookstores and be told that the books you want to read are

00:04:02.580 not like real or important or whatever yeah and as we grew up we kept going to bookstores kept

00:04:09.940 realizing there were no romance bookstores. And after I went to graduate school, wrote a

00:04:14.360 dissertation on romance, it just became clear that like Leah and I wanted to work together.

00:04:20.660 We're figuring out our next step and our next step had something to do with bookstores and

00:04:24.680 romance novels and putting it all together. And that's how the Rift Boss came to be.

00:04:29.980 And there was a Kickstarter, right?

00:04:31.280 Yes. We raised about $90,000 on Kickstarter. We're young now, but we were eight and a half years younger when we were doing this. And we didn't have a lot of confidence that a bank was going to give us a traditional loan, given that we were trying to do something that nobody had ever done before.

00:04:53.060 And so we went straight to our future customer base and basically said, if this is something you would be excited about, we'd love to send you a T-shirt in exchange for $20.

00:05:05.820 And that is how we raised our funding.

00:05:10.660 How would you describe the state of romance in 2015, 2016?

00:05:18.220 Changing?

00:05:18.900 yeah and actually 2015 to 2016 is an actually really interesting time because you know we

00:05:25.460 opened in March and it was like it was going pretty good but I think it was obviously the

00:05:32.240 romance community supporting us and then Trump got elected and like everyone in the world

00:05:38.420 who didn't vote for him was like I need comfort I need escapism and a lot of them

00:05:47.820 came to us so it was a very interesting transitional period the industry has had so many

00:05:55.280 changes over the like specifically romance in publishing and then publishing larger um and

00:06:01.980 which has affected romance in any number of ways but it's like a moment where you're seeing like

00:06:06.740 sub genres in romance literally like disappear or re-emerge as more popular um like when we

00:06:16.800 first started there was a sub genre of romance called new adult we haven't gotten a new new

00:06:23.680 adult title like marketed that way in years it feels they just kind of got rid of what new adult

00:06:33.500 was it like supposed to be like you're 20 yeah it was 18 to 24 yeah fascinating that's just like

00:06:42.060 everything in some ways right yeah the interesting thing like looking back I feel like I if you'd

00:06:47.720 asked me in 2016 like what's the state of romance I would have said oh it's booming but now I'm like

00:06:54.260 oh my god it was like not at all compared to now um yeah no it's really interesting that you

00:07:03.380 position it within the realm of like seeking some sort of diversion from the news from the rest of

00:07:11.140 life like it's like skincare and romance novels 100 those two things and i feel like we we saw

00:07:18.920 this like booming podcast about those two things like skincare yes 100 and also i think a reclaiming 0.98

00:07:28.140 of talking about both of those things in like a legitimized fashion like fuck you we're not 0.62

00:07:34.840 gonna like be derogatory about this anymore yeah it used to be i'm gonna about to say something 0.88

00:07:40.400 really depressing so i apologize but um it used to be much more like um we would see huge spikes

00:07:47.500 in sales and media requests after mass shooting events um and other disasters and um but but it

00:07:58.140 was like event based and now it's just all the time because it's it's universally acknowledged

00:08:04.560 that things are bad all the time it's just emblematic like it's so it's the best dad i know

00:08:11.420 to to communicate the constant precarity right yeah is that like we always need romance novels

00:08:17.860 um and skincare products so we have a ton of questions because we have a ton of fans

00:08:24.120 of romance bookstores broadly but also romances in the culture study community so we're going to

00:08:30.020 get started. And then for the Ask Anne Anything segment, we're going to answer a question from

00:08:35.800 a fellow bookseller who wants tips on how to make recommendations, and then one from a librarian

00:08:40.700 who wants help navigating tweens and teens' interest in the genre. So does that sound good?

00:08:46.120 Sounds amazing.

00:08:47.620 Okay, so let's start with this question from Tessa to position us even more in this current

00:08:52.520 moment in romance.

00:08:53.320 I grew up reading romance novels disguised as historical Westerns and later Harlequin

00:08:59.260 romance novels. In recent years, it seems like romance novels have gained legitimacy,

00:09:05.660 including the popularity boom of quote-unquote better writing. Do you think that's true? And

00:09:11.780 if so, why? And also, am I wrong to feel sort of possessive of the genre as an OG romance reader?

00:09:19.520 Okay, who wants to take this one? It's juicy. You want me to?

00:09:23.700 Sure.

00:09:24.380 Yeah.

00:09:24.700 And maybe like define a couple terms for people, like what series romance is and what

00:09:30.260 Harlequin is.

00:09:31.520 Sure.

00:09:31.860 Sure.

00:09:32.220 Okay.

00:09:32.500 So like Harlequin romance was this behemoth, and they're still publishing romance, but

00:09:38.180 so many people who have been reading romance for a longer time or older romance readers

00:09:43.220 got started with Harlequin, which used to be a subscription-based romance service.

00:09:49.400 You could also buy them in grocery stores, in big box stores.

00:09:52.380 they were just much more accessible um and they were published as category you can still subscribe

00:09:58.940 as categories or series romances um they're shorter they're very tropey they're they're

00:10:06.920 very specific kind of romance um to be totally honest we don't sell that many in our in our

00:10:12.840 bookstores um except for old used ones i do not think anyone should feel bad about feeling

00:10:21.760 defensive of romance, especially if you're a longtime reader. It's like, we've been here all

00:10:27.600 along. What do you guys, you know? So I totally get that feeling. Feel however you want to feel.

00:10:33.900 Yeah. We always like to say there's room for everyone in romance. There is a romance for

00:10:39.820 everyone and there's room for all kinds of readers. There's room for new people. There's

00:10:44.120 room for people who've been here forever. And what we also like to say is everyone wants to

00:10:49.820 talk about romance in their own language. So there's a big divide in the community about

00:10:56.600 words like smut and bodice refers. Like these phrases have had pejorative connotations.

00:11:04.960 Leah and I are very much of the like, let's reclaim it. We're not embarrassed. This is our

00:11:10.720 world. We want to refer to it however we want. There's other people who think it devalues it.

00:11:14.720 And I think all of that is valid and true and can all exist in the same world about better writing. I don't personally think that's true. I think romance have been very well written for as long as I've been reading them.

00:11:29.780 they're being taken more seriously by the literary establishment.

00:11:35.040 And so there does seem to be this emphasis on whether or not they're well

00:11:40.300 written as if some of them are very poorly written, which I,

00:11:44.000 I do find pejorative.

00:11:45.480 So that's not my favorite way to describe a romance,

00:11:49.760 but it certainly does happen that we describe them that way.

00:11:52.760 Yeah. Leah, what do you think?

00:11:54.800 That was a really good answer. Good job, Bea.

00:11:56.660 The only thing I'll add when it when it comes to writing is is I think there's this sort of weird desire to have a lot of like absolutism in romance.

00:12:08.040 Like they're all fantastic or they're all terrible.

00:12:10.520 It's like it's a huge genre of books.

00:12:12.480 There are bad romance novels and there are great romance novels.

00:12:16.500 And what's bad to some people is good.

00:12:20.760 You know, people are looking for different things in romance novels.

00:12:23.500 Like Chuck Tingle is a perfect example of like, what is well written? What is fun? What is what people are looking for and enjoying? Like, yeah, and sometimes it's different moments in your life. You're like, sometimes I want this kind of book. And sometimes I want, like, sometimes I want a book that I'm going to forget as soon as I finish it.

00:12:40.960 Sure. Yeah, you just want a couple hours of like escapism and disappearing into a world and you don't want to have to think about these characters for a long time after and you just know they're happy. It's great.

00:12:53.680 yeah people aren't like oh it's like i do i think sometimes people think that reading can't be

00:13:00.160 similar to say watching tv or scrolling tiktok right that like sometimes you just want to

00:13:06.680 engage in a with a medium and an experience and in this case it's reading right and it doesn't

00:13:13.060 sometimes it can be spectacular and you never forget that book and sometimes it's just sitting

00:13:19.800 down and spending two hours and there are plenty of romance novels that are spectacular books and

00:13:25.040 that will stay with you for a long time and the characters will stay with you for a long time it's

00:13:29.040 I think it's exactly what Leah's saying like the genre definitely contains multitudes

00:13:32.080 I am a huge sitcom fan I love sitcoms they give me the same thing that romance novels give me

00:13:40.720 there is a preparation of expectations yeah I know what I'm getting because it's a sitcom I

00:13:47.420 know what I'm getting because it's a romance novel. There are certain rules and conventions

00:13:51.420 to a genre-based entertainment form. I love cozy mysteries. Like, I love genre in all facets.

00:13:59.920 And I think all of them give us something different. Yes. Okay, so our next question

00:14:04.860 is about physical changes in the genre. I am so excited to talk about this. This is from Jennifer.

00:14:10.480 What happened to the mass market paperback? I want to support my favorite authors,

00:14:14.560 but I miss those $7.99 books. I feel like this shift coincided with illustrated covers as well.

00:14:20.420 And I also miss my old school sexy covers. Okay, so first of all, I think we can maybe

00:14:27.200 talk about if these covers have actually gone away, because my feeling is that they haven't.

00:14:33.940 And then the second is like, this is such an interesting shift in medium. And I think on the

00:14:38.860 publishing side to how they're thinking of it and just like the size of the book, right? And what

00:14:44.360 the smaller book, the connotation of that book and how it meant something different in the 70s,

00:14:49.800 80s, 90s than now. So who wants to start? I will. So we're talking about the literal

00:14:56.800 page size. So a mass market is a small book. It's like four and a half inches by seven inches

00:15:05.020 approximately. And it's generally what you see in like a checkout line at a grocery store

00:15:10.880 and or maybe at an airport if there's like a book that was really popular and then they've like

00:15:16.780 repackaged it into a smaller book so we're talking about the literal physical size of a book a trade

00:15:21.620 paperback is the larger size but still in paperback so it's like almost the same size as a

00:15:28.340 hardcover but it's a paperback and then obviously I assume you know what a hardcover is so those are

00:15:33.200 the kind of those are the three categories of books that we're talking about um and when we

00:15:38.700 opened, I would say 100% of historical romance, 100% of paranormal romance, and 50% of contemporary

00:15:49.740 romance were published in mass market paperback first. Generally, we're concerned with like the

00:15:55.400 first thing that they published because sometimes if something's popular, they'll like redo it in

00:15:59.000 another size. Now in 2024, oh my God, I almost forgot what year it was. 90% of historical is in

00:16:07.360 mass market, 20% of paranormal is in mass market and zero, not really, but like 10%

00:16:18.180 of contemporary is in mass market. So first thing, you're not crazy.

00:16:22.080 I feel like your number is even low for historicals. I'm looking at three historicals

00:16:27.180 in trade on my desk right now. I think that's better.

00:16:31.560 Let's say we'll make it 80, but it's still that you can find the most mass markets in historical.

00:16:37.360 Okay. Then, so Jennifer's also talking about something called the clinch cover, which is people, like actual models, generally in historical dress, occasionally shirtless, the man, obviously, you know, on some sort of windswept, you know, boat or castle or something like that.

00:17:00.100 Yeah, you can picture presumably what I'm talking about.

00:17:03.240 Yeah, like Fabio, right?

00:17:04.400 Like that's like, that's the, yeah, yeah.

00:17:07.660 Yeah, that is called a clinch cover.

00:17:10.620 Then she's talking about an illustrated cover.

00:17:14.120 Some people call them like a cartoon cover.

00:17:16.160 The point is there's no real people.

00:17:18.340 It's an illustration, sometimes of people, sometimes of not people.

00:17:22.280 and that has exploded in popularity since we've been doing this from contemporary like especially

00:17:31.600 there was i would say two percent illustrated covers when we started and now it's like almost

00:17:37.940 a hundred percent this is a new avon it's an audio medium v oh they're not showing the video

00:17:42.460 i mean i'm showing him this is crazy this book would have never come out when we opened in this

00:17:48.980 format so it's like a it's a trade paperback and it has two ladies it's a lesbian historical

00:17:55.860 wow what's the title of it so we can make sure to put this in the show notes i'm trying to

00:18:00.720 squint at it don't want you like a best friend yes it is a taylor reference amazing by emma albin

00:18:05.980 it's so good okay sorry i still haven't actually answered yeah sorry so okay no now that we've

00:18:12.340 to find all of our terms um where did they go um they went away um they can charge more for trade

00:18:20.980 oh yeah they make more money i would say and and i think jennifer acknowledges this in her question

00:18:28.560 like i do think um it's probably more fair compensation for the authors that you enjoy

00:18:34.600 so obviously i totally understand why you want cheaper books but um his romance novelists have

00:18:40.520 made pennies for decades so uh there is a benefit to hopefully them getting paid a little bit more

00:18:47.620 um but i also think anything to do with covers and format is just cyclical trends so like especially

00:18:56.120 with the illustrated covers you know everyone's like oh my god what's happening i'm like this

00:19:00.860 has happened before this is not where it's not like the apocalypse or anything um confessions

00:19:07.380 of a shopaholic um yeah i was just thinking that early chiclet um of like 2000 like that had its

00:19:16.560 own style of illustrated covers that we went through or go back even further in the 80s there

00:19:22.780 was a moment where they didn't want clinch covers and there were like diamonds on the cover or like

00:19:28.100 a flower yes daniel steel right like perfect example so there have been these moments yeah

00:19:35.060 that like daniel steel i was like oh this is classy this is a classy romance with lots of

00:19:41.760 sex that i'm not supposed to read totally totally like right after 50 shades all erotica had like

00:19:48.820 a lily on the cover or like cufflinks or whatever you know in the black

00:19:55.320 i promise i'm not gonna spend the whole time dunking on traditional romance but um traditionally

00:20:03.660 publish romance, but they are very susceptible to when they see success of something else,

00:20:10.460 they just want to endlessly do it again. So, um, there's a lot of that. Um, so I, I just think

00:20:18.860 that the, the cycles of romance covers are like less a harbinger of anything than people might

00:20:25.800 think and more just about like what's currently selling and traditional publishing, what they're

00:20:32.760 copying. And then in a couple of years, they'll find something else. And that's what we'll do.

00:20:38.020 Yeah. So there's another question that we're not going to go into in full, but it's basically

00:20:41.380 pointing out that everything that you just talked about, but then also asking,

00:20:46.240 do you think that there should be things on the cover that somehow communicate the spice level

00:20:53.360 of the book? I'm not opposed to it, but I think it'd be hard because, you know, you have cross

00:21:01.200 publisher competition. Who gets to decide? Is there going to be like an MPAA of like spice

00:21:08.720 levels, right? I'm a little opposed to it because I think it stems from a very, we must protect the

00:21:17.240 children kind of attitude. And that is the job of parenting. So when people are like, oh,

00:21:27.380 like a kid might pick up this book well if they hand it to their parent to buy the parent should

00:21:33.040 look at the book like that's I don't view that as my job that's their job I mean our parents let us

00:21:38.840 we read romance extremely early our mother did not she was not a romance reader she knew what

00:21:44.820 books we were reading but she didn't read them and she let me read them and obviously it led to

00:21:52.420 where we are now. I mean, we'll get to this a little later. But the official culture study

00:21:58.900 stance is that you should let your teens read romance to try to try on and experiment with

00:22:03.740 different ideas about sex. Like, it's way better than not knowing anything about sex. Yeah. And

00:22:08.700 romance, especially good romance, like so much about consent, right? Exactly. And it centers

00:22:13.340 feelings and a healthy conversation. And sex as like something that's beautiful and not to be

00:22:21.020 ashamed i i don't think that's a bad thing to give teens as their introduction to sex

00:22:25.620 and if there's a spice level on the cover like kids are just gonna i don't know rip off the

00:22:30.880 cover so that their parents won't see the spice level of course like they'll always find it like

00:22:34.880 just like something that's really sexy to someone is like pretty tame to somebody else like right

00:22:42.340 who would decide that well and you also get into this scenario where probably someone like 0.81

00:22:48.820 where sex that isn't heterosexual vanilla sex somehow becomes spicier right and with that 0.67

00:22:55.380 you're teetering on the edge of homophobia teetering on the edge of yep well patriarchal 0.69

00:23:02.240 yeah like let's not judge different kinds of course that's what the back of the book is for

00:23:07.800 it tells you what the book is about so like yeah if you don't read that and you just look at the

00:23:14.560 cover, like, yeah, you might end up with something that you're not expecting, but you should read

00:23:19.240 the back of the book. Right. And that's what friends are for is to be like, hmm, this one

00:23:23.360 was spicy. Like you can pick up the signals that other people are putting out. I was like

00:23:28.300 the romance dealer of my high school and middle school and high school. I would come to school

00:23:35.240 with a backpack full of these books. Specifically, I was really into historicals. They were all

00:23:39.340 historical and like hand them out to my friends like I had like a little illicit for readers that

00:23:46.140 will get a kick out of this can you say like the historical that you're like that were your favorite

00:23:50.520 oh my gosh like at that point it was definitely Lisa Clayposs Sarah McLean of course Julia Quinn

00:23:56.740 the early Bridgertons I loved Lorraine Heath she was like one of my faves Loretta Chase

00:24:04.040 oh my god so good i loved we talked about this the last romance podcast we did but i was very

00:24:12.220 into like the imzadi romance line of star trek the next generation basically it was star trek

00:24:18.140 the next generation books that are about riker and troy and their forever love so i didn't realize

00:24:23.860 how much i loved romance i was like i just like these star trek books no i like that's so funny

00:24:29.820 story that's amazing we know a number of women who have entered the romance space through like

00:24:35.660 more geek world nerd nerd dumb spaces there's such an overlap there um and i'm so glad that

00:24:42.400 we're like now embracing that instead of like no it's just sci-fi no it's just romance like now

00:24:48.260 there are sci-fi romance well and i remember this conversation around outlander too in terms of like 0.54

00:24:54.200 the author was so firm about this is not romance and i'm like bitch this is romance like this is 0.66

00:25:01.940 there are all there's time travel and there is a lot of romance like it's amazing who cares 0.83

00:25:08.680 right who cares you're getting all these readers what do you care that they they think it's romance

00:25:14.020 i think what she was trying to do there is be she was trying to set preparation of expectations

00:25:19.900 because those books don't always end happily.

00:25:22.240 So she was like, please don't come to my books for a happy ending.

00:25:26.380 Right, right.

00:25:27.500 She also said some other stuff.

00:25:29.080 That's a very charitable way to look at it.

00:25:31.000 There were other things said, but I do think that is a valid point,

00:25:33.980 which is that some historical fiction does not end happily,

00:25:37.720 and so therefore it would not be classified as romance.

00:25:41.480 Okay, our next question comes from Chi,

00:25:43.660 who wants to know how word about romance novels gets around.

00:25:47.900 What are the ways that people are finding their next romance read?

00:25:51.600 How and why do some books blow up and become so ubiquitous and well-known?

00:25:57.080 Well, I think there's another question at some point about book talk as well. 0.96

00:26:01.740 You know, social media is a huge driver of young female readership in so many different ways. 0.98

00:26:10.840 They talk about the books, they share the books, they share going to the bookstore,

00:26:14.540 they share their book club it's like the act of reading is shared in this very lovely communal

00:26:22.780 way on social media yeah unfortunately it's like yeah some books start getting talked about and

00:26:29.940 it's very much like a rolling stone you can't stop um which is good for that book it just means

00:26:36.720 that other books do get overlooked um and we always try to strike a balance in our bookstore

00:26:43.180 of highlighting the books that are super popular right now, and then also highlighting as many as

00:26:48.140 we can that we think should be super popular for any number of reasons. And our staff is so amazing

00:26:53.820 about that too, because they read everything. Leah, do you have thoughts on this?

00:27:00.120 Yeah. I mean, I think Bea's story is a really good example. We're millennials, so we're just

00:27:07.620 a little bit pre-social media. So there's a direct line from her handing out books from

00:27:13.080 her backpack at school to people that she actually knows in real life to, you know, a young person on

00:27:19.260 TikTok who is essentially doing the same thing. Right. Just to people in other countries and

00:27:24.640 states. Right. Algorithms are racist. I'm not a computer scientist, but I believe computer

00:27:30.940 scientists when they tell me why algorithms are racist. So they're not 100 percent evil, but it's

00:27:36.560 just important to recognize that and recognize that that is what contributes to certain books

00:27:41.980 becoming really popular. Again, it's not like fully positive, fully negative. It's just like

00:27:47.940 important to keep in mind. So but especially in romance, the way that people learn about

00:27:54.640 new romance is from other romance readers. And that can take different forms depending on your

00:28:00.840 preferred podcast, Twitter feed, in-person book club, library, whatever. But it is generally from

00:28:09.240 other women's readers yeah the one thing i think about is how like how easy it is for a book that 0.99

00:28:16.260 features let's say a straight protagonist straight white slender able-bodied protagonist like 0.99

00:28:24.100 because white women still make up the majority of readers broadly just because of percentages 0.98

00:28:31.220 like racial breakdown in the united states let's say something resonates more because of that

00:28:36.880 easy identification that kind of base level identification and then it becomes like like

00:28:42.720 you said like it becomes this entity that eclipses other entities that exact phenomena has been so 0.98

00:28:49.440 problematic in romance because books about aliens blow up yeah books about all kinds of crazy shit 0.97

00:28:57.420 blow up but it doesn't seem like as much we're getting books blown up about black characters 0.97

00:29:03.320 Mexican character like it there is a racism but like Leah said like inherent in the algorithm

00:29:09.480 when it comes to promoting that stuff and then also what's being published if you know the

00:29:14.380 numbers are still not equitable there's yeah there's the issues still here Leah has mentioned

00:29:20.980 this before there's so much self-published romance um and in self-published romance you can find so

00:29:28.820 much more representation of like everything and i'm interested to see when those really do start

00:29:38.540 grabbing hold of social media because they have banana pants plots too and all the kinds of things

00:29:44.740 that people seem to love in straight white romances right yeah and some of it is just like

00:29:51.260 because i don't think readers are necessarily explicitly like i only want to read about white

00:29:57.680 protagonists. It's more that this is just what gets popular and what spreads and eclipses the

00:30:06.260 other books. It requires some investment in being a reader who's seeking out a wide variety of

00:30:14.840 stories, whatever that might be, or being a more passive reader who's just reading what's popular

00:30:20.320 and what is popular is going to be white and straight, usually.

00:30:25.600 Melody just put a giant copy paste into our show notes that says,

00:30:30.280 ask them about the state of racial diversity and romance publishing report,

00:30:34.260 which you did almost immediately after opening, right?

00:30:37.480 Yeah.

00:30:38.400 Why did that feel important? Tell me about that.

00:30:41.140 You can go on our website, careerbottis.com,

00:30:44.280 and click on where it says, we may have chosen too long of a name, but whatever,

00:30:48.840 uh the state of racial diversity and romance publishing report um it's a long name so once

00:30:54.860 an academic oh is an academic i mean you got there's no colon so that's what it is there's

00:31:00.080 no colon so you're okay that's what it is um and it's it we it's very simple we we try to be really

00:31:09.740 clear about what it is it's not like some comprehensive giant project what it is is a

00:31:16.060 data track of how many authors who are not white, the 20 largest romance publishers are publishing

00:31:27.680 every year. So each publisher gets a percentage number. So let's say ABC publisher puts out 100

00:31:35.160 books a year. Nine of them are written by authors of color. So their percentage for the year is

00:31:40.980 nine. Um, we're not looking at any content. It's solely about the authors and we're, this is not

00:31:48.860 self-publishing. This is traditional and indie publishing the 20 largest companies. And because

00:31:53.920 we started this in 2016 and we do it every year, you can see how those numbers change over the

00:31:59.180 years. And the reason that we started doing this is we, I am a fan of hard data and we felt like

00:32:09.240 there was amazing advocacy being done by readers and in particular authors for decades.

00:32:15.760 However, the thing that they were and we were still hearing from publishers was,

00:32:22.900 number one, we're working on it. And number two, we're getting better. And I'm the kind of person

00:32:28.780 who I'm like, OK, prove it. And if you can't prove it, I'm going to prove that you're lying.

00:32:34.440 and um in my opinion i did prove that they were lying or at least willfully sticking their heads

00:32:42.760 in the stand sure and and and really yeah misrepresenting themselves and if we've achieved

00:32:50.360 nothing else like we don't publish the books we can't do anything about that but i do think

00:32:56.040 we have made it so that you know if if a publisher says we've gotten better and your percentage has

00:33:02.420 gone down over the last six years, there's a lot of people who can now say, okay, well,

00:33:07.660 you're straight up lying.

00:33:09.940 And we really view it as a tool to just support the authors who have been doing this work

00:33:18.940 for decades.

00:33:20.020 And hopefully it just gives them another tool in their arsenal, especially because I think

00:33:25.460 when we started, honestly, the conversation was still, and this was after, you know, again,

00:33:29.600 decades, like this isn't as big of a problem as you're making it seem. And so hopefully we've

00:33:36.680 given authors this tool to be able to say, okay, do you really think 3% of your books being written

00:33:46.420 by authors of color is acceptable? And obviously, yes, there are a lot of people who do think that

00:33:52.540 that's acceptable. Um, but hopefully we've just given people a tool to be able to talk about this

00:33:59.920 with more accuracy. I think a big thing for us was just, it is not a meritocracy. Yeah. Yep. And

00:34:05.960 that's, we had to start from like a place of all, all realizing it's not write the best book you're

00:34:12.520 going to get published. That is not what's going on here. And if we, we made a decision as

00:34:17.920 booksellers to be activist booksellers and to actively try and fight against white supremacy

00:34:24.480 in publishing. And that happens in a number of ways. But in this way, it was just like

00:34:31.120 the simplest data, just the single number of how much you are publishing is one small part of this

00:34:38.720 much larger conversation that we all need to be involved in. But it's just what we felt we could

00:34:43.960 add to the conversation. Yep. Yeah. Two phrases I would, I would encourage people to, to look out

00:34:51.380 for that. And this goes back to our previous question before, um, exactly what Bea is saying

00:34:57.480 like, Oh, I don't care about the author. I just want the best book. Yeah. Well look out for that.

00:35:02.740 And then, and then look out for, Oh, I just prefer books that I can relate to. I think

00:35:10.760 there are people that would say that there's nothing wrong with either of those statements

00:35:15.760 and but they're they just I I want people to be on the lookout for those and and especially in

00:35:22.540 themselves and start to interrogate what's underneath that yeah um especially the one

00:35:28.740 that's like I don't care about the author I just want the best book dig a little bit deeper in

00:35:34.460 terms of who has access to resources in publishing. And I think you might find that your bookshelf

00:35:45.460 broadens a little bit. Okay. So this one, actually, this is from an author themselves.

00:35:52.080 Let's hear from Andy. I am selfishly wondering what bookstore owners wish authors knew about

00:35:58.120 bookselling or what they misunderstand. And how can authors be dream allies for indie bookstores

00:36:04.300 beyond the obvious, linking to them and not Amazon, etc. I'd love specifics. Should we call

00:36:11.460 before we stop in to sign copies? Not bother introducing ourselves if the store is busy?

00:36:17.040 Is it good or bad to bring bookmarks to tuck inside our titles, etc.? Thank you.

00:36:22.480 Okay, best practices for the relationship between author and bookseller.

00:36:26.900 That's such a nice question.

00:36:28.860 I know, right?

00:36:30.260 Can I take this one, B?

00:36:32.020 Yes, of course.

00:36:32.900 All right. You're already way better than most other people. I'm not kidding. Obviously nobody sets out to be like annoying or anything, but like, so great job, Andy.

00:36:48.960 What Andy clearly recognizes that I think obviously sometimes people have a hard time with is like you have poured your heart and soul into your book, your career, like to your friends, family, readers, like you are the most special and amazing jewel.

00:37:06.580 Yes.

00:37:06.800 We probably carry like 2000 individual authors. So, you know, I just think starting from a place

00:37:15.820 of, you know, I am a tiny grain of sand in a large beach. It helps you sort of contextualize

00:37:23.740 things. The first thing that Andy said is a great best practice in terms of the first thing we're

00:37:29.720 going to do if we don't know, like if we've never heard of your work before is go to your website.

00:37:33.680 and if all of your links go to Amazon and you don't like have an indie bookstore listed and

00:37:38.580 you're like, oh, I want to work with indie bookstores. Like the first thing you can do

00:37:43.220 doesn't require our participation at all. So that's not to say like, we're never going to

00:37:48.680 talk to you if you don't list a bookstore, but like, it is just a great signal to us that you're

00:37:54.900 like, oh, you've paid attention to this. And, but, and obviously like most people you link to

00:38:00.260 Amazon, Goodreads, Barnes and Noble. And then you say like, oh, this is my hometown,

00:38:04.300 Indy or something. Like it's not, it's not, you can't link to Amazon. Um, to answer her actual

00:38:11.640 questions. Yes. Please let us know if you're coming to our bookstore. Um, especially if you're,

00:38:20.880 if you want to sign books because we will order extras, um, depending on how popular you are just

00:38:30.120 to be frank um you know we might have 20 copies of your book in the store we might have two

00:38:34.700 so if you know we know that you're coming like we might order a couple extra so that we have

00:38:40.760 more introduce yourself I do actually think it kind of depends on if the store is busy or not

00:38:48.060 um but it also depends on the big thing I would say to that is go ahead at another author's event

00:38:55.400 is not the time to introduce yourself that that's just a big one I've noticed and like I totally

00:39:01.220 understand because yeah all those are friends and they come to each other's events we we are busy

00:39:06.220 working on another event and it it's kind of it's not nice to your friend it's not nice to anyone to

00:39:11.800 like yeah pull focus like that and it can it can just put everyone in an awkward yeah I think um

00:39:19.000 if depending on what your goal like if your goal if you want to come into the store and just like

00:39:23.720 have a great time and take a picture of your book on the shelf like fantastic but if you are hoping

00:39:28.100 to talk to somebody who works there like choose specifically choose a good time for that which is

00:39:34.240 like you know a weekday at noon as opposed to like Saturday at three which is you know obviously the

00:39:40.240 busiest yeah time um as a general matter and this just applies to everybody the most the best thing

00:39:47.620 that you can do is respect a bookstore's rules or processes that they already have in place.

00:39:54.140 And not everybody has this, but we do. We have information on our website about how to send us

00:40:01.720 your book, especially if you're self-published. So don't mail us a copy of your book. We have a

00:40:08.560 process for that. You're wasting money. And then I think this is, I think, hard for some authors

00:40:16.720 because obviously it's it's really hard to get published.

00:40:19.780 And and a lot of times you have to scrape for years and really believe in yourself.

00:40:25.420 But when it comes to, you know, somebody else's business, you do have to be able to accept no as an answer.

00:40:32.960 So, you know, we we can't respond to every single person who submits a book.

00:40:39.720 And you will start to annoy us if you send us 12 emails.

00:40:42.920 and we're also never saying no to be mean it's never it's never from a place of like

00:40:50.380 there's so many factors for hosting an event there's so many factors for having your book

00:40:56.160 in the store there's so many factors for all these little things that so yeah sometimes it

00:41:00.640 doesn't work out and respecting no is like the single best way to show us that we might want to

00:41:05.320 work with you in the future the best thing for for authors and especially romance authors I think

00:41:10.500 this has gotten better over the years, but this is a business. It is always a business. I understand

00:41:16.220 your book is so personal to you, but you are a business as an author and we are a business.

00:41:23.060 And I do think sometimes there's like this sort of altruistic bent to conversations about romance

00:41:30.300 that's like, oh, it's for women and we should all just be friends and be happy to be here.

00:41:36.260 we are in the business of making money like yeah we care about other things but i like to remind

00:41:43.060 people like this is a for-profit business right um so the decisions that we make are in service

00:41:49.940 of that um including by the way what we were just talking about with the diversity report

00:41:54.500 it is a tool that we are using to try to make more money um because we think that if there

00:42:02.840 were more books by authors of color we would make money on them and make and make those authors

00:42:06.880 right right there's more money to be made in this genre and it's being left on the table because of

00:42:12.180 racism yeah and i'll just say this has been the long history of capitalism yeah right it's like

00:42:19.580 why capitalism and racism go hand in hand and like fat phobia and pager like all these things it's

00:42:27.080 Like, why is capitalism like so narrow minded and who it thinks is its customer?

00:42:33.780 Last thing, and then I promise I'll stop.

00:42:36.460 The number one reason that we reject books to carry in the store is they're covered. 0.58

00:42:43.100 I know this sounds really dumb, but you would be surprised. 0.69

00:42:46.720 Your book needs to look like a book. 0.91

00:42:49.880 So if you put your book next to a bunch of other popular books and yours looks like it

00:42:54.660 was created in clip art for a fifth grade presentation about volcanoes you have a problem

00:42:59.620 yeah and there's so many amazing resources now for authors to get great covers yes made so

00:43:06.460 there's really no excuse for it anymore yeah yeah it's not like you have to be very into personal

00:43:13.060 design yourself or like have a brother who knows how to use like photoshop like no there are so

00:43:18.120 many resources but last thing your book has to be able to sell itself off the shelf without us doing

00:43:24.360 anything yeah just to wrap it up and make it sound nice you're doing great good job and

00:43:30.140 thank you for asking thank you for asking the question

00:43:33.780 yeah okay so this last question before we get to the more advicey stuff is from marissa and it's

00:43:41.960 about how you stock your store especially i think they use stuff i'm really interested in this so

00:43:48.280 let's hear it romance is a genre with so much history in so many eras not just those depicted

00:43:54.120 in historical romance, but eras in the industry itself. I would love to know more about how

00:43:59.100 buyers approach balancing current titles, authors, and trends with older ones, especially the bonkers

00:44:04.500 80s books that were so formative to my young romance-sneaking self, but in retrospect are

00:44:10.160 extremely problematic. How does a romance-centric bookstore thread the needle of celebrating the

00:44:16.180 genre and reckoning with its past? Who wants to take this one? The history of romance is mine.

00:44:22.580 this is all my area of expertise oh my god i literally have so many thoughts i don't even

00:44:29.680 know where to start but the history of romance has a variety of problematic things in it in the

00:44:38.740 books in the authors like there's things that have happened and we don't promote those titles

00:44:45.880 as like new books that you should be reading right now

00:44:50.400 because they're full of consent and healthy relief.

00:44:54.680 All the things we've been talking about

00:44:56.240 as something we like to see in romance,

00:44:58.320 that is just not where people were writing from in the 80s.

00:45:01.820 It's a very different vibe.

00:45:04.220 There certainly are healthier romances from the 80s, by the way.

00:45:08.680 And there's also quite a few Black and women of color

00:45:12.540 writing romance historically as well

00:45:14.680 who have kind of been written out of the narrative for any number of reasons. But we have that stuff

00:45:20.940 because it is a part of our history. We're not trying to pretend like it didn't happen. I think

00:45:26.440 acting like it had no problematic moments, acting like rape as the start of a relationship is like

00:45:34.060 a good thing is, we're not doing that. But it is in early romance and we are a romance bookstore

00:45:41.000 and we like to know where we've come from, almost in excitement of where we have ended up.

00:45:47.840 And we also, there's another part of this, which is my, one of my particular

00:45:52.340 pet projects is romance as a, as rare books has not traditionally been given any value.

00:46:02.780 Shocker. I am obsessed with promoting romance novels as rare collectible books.

00:46:11.000 There are a number of people who are collecting romance and who are literally like winning awards for it, who are writing about it in a very academic way.

00:46:21.020 Rebecca Romney, she's been a rare bookseller for years who has been promoting romance and women authors in the early 19th, 18th centuries.

00:46:32.140 Like she's just been doing amazing work.

00:46:34.200 Um, she has a book coming out about being an Austin fan and reading the authors that

00:46:40.420 Austin read and like learning about who she loved.

00:46:43.720 And I, it's just such a cool project.

00:46:46.020 Georgette Herr, Mary Birchall, there are authors who people are collecting already.

00:46:52.140 Some Georgette Herr, like very problematic, but her books have value on the rare books

00:46:58.460 market.

00:46:58.760 And I think that is a big part of continuing to get people to respect romance, respect where we came from, respect the genre and women as creators, people who should be collected.

00:47:12.580 So we are we have a small selection online right now of used books.

00:47:20.280 They go pretty fast.

00:47:21.460 People get excited by the covers.

00:47:23.400 And we update it every week.

00:47:24.620 We put new books up every week.

00:47:26.100 so if that's something you're interested in check back and see what's new I just I've always wanted

00:47:32.320 to do an entire catalog of rare romance yeah no I like and I collect old fan magazines and

00:47:39.980 and scandal magazines and so I absolutely know how difficult it is to find historical

00:47:46.500 archival copies I mean I love eBay it's fantastic for it um and they are incredible repositories

00:47:55.580 of cultural knowledge you're like oh what were we thinking about what words did we use to describe

00:48:00.880 like what was going on with sex at this time it's all there my favorite thing old romance novels

00:48:08.000 have old advertisements in them yes yes amazing they're so fascinating like cruises and perfumes

00:48:16.620 and purses and like it you just learn so much also my i mean this is like totally an insight

00:48:22.040 into my brain my favorite thing in a romance is to find you know someone's written hated this book

00:48:28.000 yes like their their little notation like grandma script like just like too sexy or you know like

00:48:34.820 just to connect with a past reader of romance like that is like so meaningful to me when we

00:48:42.740 first opened someone came in and gave us her mom's harlequin catalog which was this thing that they

00:48:48.460 published that had every book they'd published for years. And she had been checking off every

00:48:54.940 single one she'd read. It's still one of my most prized possession. I feel like I can see it like

00:48:59.440 literally on my shelf over there. Cause it just like, it's this guide into another romance reader

00:49:06.500 from another generation. I just, I think it's the coolest thing. The checklist. Ah, so good.

00:49:12.060 I love it.

00:49:13.460 Can I tell you, one of my most cherished possessions, I'm a huge Nora Roberts fan and I have a massive

00:49:20.340 Nora Roberts collection.

00:49:22.640 And I mean, this just speaks to our customers.

00:49:25.140 One of my all time favorite customers. 0.99

00:49:27.000 Her name is Jen. 1.00

00:49:27.740 Huge shout out, Jen.

00:49:28.620 Love you, Jen.

00:49:29.180 At this year's LA Times Festival of Books, she handed me like a beautifully wrapped package,

00:49:34.720 a gift, and I opened it and it was a promotional Nora Roberts tissue box.

00:49:42.060 Um, that's like, um, that she put in like an acrylic thing to like keep it nice.

00:49:47.880 And it's like, basically it's like her next book will make you cry.

00:49:51.320 Like, here are some tissues for that.

00:49:53.280 And first of all, like just, I mean, the fact that she like got this for me is just so lovely

00:50:00.860 and kind, incredible marketing.

00:50:02.800 Um, and, uh, yeah, it's on my, uh, on my dresser.

00:50:07.900 um so yeah and I think we put it very very well it's you know yes primarily what we sell

00:50:17.540 is books published in the last 10 to 15 years um I have interesting conversations with some

00:50:24.140 with people you know especially when we're talking about like if we're selling them a nice

00:50:29.420 nin or the um Anne Rice Sleeping Beauty series I will usually say to people like

00:50:35.060 this is an interesting academic exercise like I want you to understand right you know what you're

00:50:42.420 going into or if people come in and are really interested in the genre and are and are looking

00:50:48.040 to get more into that history you know we will say you know like the flame and the flower is

00:50:53.300 really important to the genre is it by 2024 standards a good romance novel no

00:51:01.040 um so but that doesn't mean that it's not like foundational right it's just about it's it's be

00:51:10.320 as b said one of our favorite phrases that we stole from our sister-in-law olivia preparation

00:51:15.080 of expectations all right so this part of advice time is going to be for paid subscribers we're so

00:51:23.980 excited for it and if you're not a paid subscriber you won't get to hear all of our advice on being a

00:51:29.000 good book recommender and how and whether to facilitate tween and teen girls relationship

00:51:33.220 to romance novels so if you want this part of the show you know where to go if people want to find

00:51:38.460 more where can they find you what are your favorite ways for them to find you on the internet

00:51:43.040 um we are the rip bod is pretty much everywhere instagram twitter tiktok our website um depending

00:51:51.040 on how you enjoy you know interacting with the things choose your medium if you want silly videos

00:51:58.920 go to TikTok. If you like, you know, seeing what all the new releases are that week, go to Instagram.

00:52:05.880 And then obviously, if you are live in California or New York, or you're passing through,

00:52:12.080 please come visit us in person. Amazing. Thank you so much. This has been a delight.

00:52:18.360 Thank you for having us.

00:52:24.660 Thanks so much for listening to the Culture Study Podcast. Be sure to subscribe where

00:52:28.740 you get your podcasts. We have so many great episodes in the works and I promise that you

00:52:33.660 don't want to miss any of them. I know that I say that every time, but it's really true. We have so

00:52:37.880 many good episodes in the works. Some of the shows we're working on include how we think and talk

00:52:42.540 about cancer and how and where we consume celebrity gossip, which is really the whole range of this

00:52:48.520 podcast in a nutshell. Melody wrote this before she knew what today's newsletter was going to be,

00:52:53.860 but it's about Kate Middleton's post chemotherapy video. So it really is the whole spread of

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00:53:57.440 the show at Culture Study Pod.

Culture Study Podcast - September 11, 2024

What It's Really Like to Run a Romance Bookstore

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