Culture Study Podcast - Sapphic Pop, So Hot Right Now

00:00:01.000 And I dedicate this to queer and trans people that feel pop all around. 0.93

00:00:09.000 To the gays who dedicate my songs to someone they love or hate.

00:00:15.000 And thank you to the people who are fans, who listen to me, who hear me when I share my joy and my fears.

00:00:23.000 Thank you for listening.

00:00:30.000 And for all the queer kids in the Midwest watching right now, I see you, I understand

00:00:38.400 you, because I'm one of you, and don't ever let anyone tell you that you can't be exactly 1.00

00:00:45.880 who you want to be, bitch. 0.99

00:00:54.320 This is the Culture Study Podcast, and I'm Anne Helen Peterson. 0.99

00:00:58.600 I'm Trish Bendix, a writer in Los Angeles, writer of the Substack Lit Fem.

00:01:03.000 Okay, so we're recording this the morning after the VMAs, and we just heard Chapel Rune's speech

00:01:08.860 when she accepted the award for Best New Artist. So what did you make of that speech?

00:01:13.560 I think it was a really interesting thing to experience watching someone who

00:01:17.440 has been so openly queer that hasn't yet had such a nationally televised presence quite yet.

00:01:25.140 Like she's a huge star, but she hasn't had this opportunity to address people in the way that she did at the VMAs.

00:01:31.280 So I think it was extremely powerful for her to be able to use this opportunity as the best new artist, which is, you know, not something that is at all gendered or, you know, like they've changed a lot about the VMAs over the years. 0.80

00:01:46.340 Thankfully, it's now moon people, you know, as opposed to moon men.

00:01:49.600 And so I guess, you know, personally, I felt as if she was speaking on behalf of someone like me as a queer person in a way that I don't necessarily usually feel included in the speeches like that. 0.97

00:02:05.840 Like, I mean, and I think there have been a lot of others who identify as maybe pansexual or queer, you know, such as Miley Cyrus, who has definitely addressed and included the queer community in acceptance speeches.

00:02:18.400 But I think in particular, Chapel Rhone is just this new feminominum. 0.77

00:02:23.260 Well, you know, it's funny, too, to contrast it with, like, cisgendered straight artists being like, and thanks to the gays for being my fans. 0.78

00:02:31.580 Right. Like, it's important to acknowledge a fan base.

00:02:36.040 Like, I think that's that used to be radical, like that when that first started, like even Madonna acknowledging that that was like a huge part of her fan base.

00:02:44.900 But at the same time, there is something that I think can, depending on the delivery, be a little bit paternalistic almost.

00:02:52.220 Right. And also just the fact that Chapel Roan was like, specifically, if you're a queer kid in the Midwest, like, yes, I see you.

00:03:00.820 I am you. Right. And yeah, you can be whoever you want to be was really powerful, I think.

00:03:07.760 Yeah. I mean, I'm from Michigan. Yeah. So I can 100 percent relate. And, you know, I'm 40. So I am at like this interesting point in my life and having written about queer women in music now called Sapphic Pop has a whole different name since I came out at 20.

00:03:28.980 You know, so I've been doing it for 20 years. So it's like at a very interesting point now to watch someone that's about the age I was when I was coming out and the difference in how there can be such an openness and such an ability to name like I'm a queer kid from the Midwest on this stage and be celebrated for it in a way that used to have to be thinly veiled, cagey, adjacent as an ally.

00:03:58.560 You know, and so I think Katy Perry performing and having to sing I Kissed a Girl and then, you know, I think it's just like, wow, what a juxtaposition that I'm so here for because it really speaks to a lot of the ways in which we've been able to allow queer women's representation, especially like on a national stage or on radio, which I think is an even bigger part of this.

00:04:28.180 I'm so glad that you are approximately my age.

00:04:31.500 And this is part of the reason we wanted you to have to have you on the show.

00:04:34.880 Not because you're older, but because you are invested in historicizing sapphic pop, both like very explicitly in your writing.

00:04:44.660 You have this great feature that we're going to link to in the show notes on NBC News about the lineage of sapphic pop.

00:04:52.820 But also because you have sense memory of hearing Melissa Etheridge on the radio, right?

00:04:59.940 Or Katie Lang on the radio.

00:05:01.800 Hell yeah!

00:05:02.360 Or even Tracy Chapman back when she was first all over the radio.

00:05:06.060 Like, how there was, like, you knew but you didn't know.

00:05:10.080 Like, there was something that was explicit but also invisible and, like, things.

00:05:15.080 I grew up in a small town in Idaho and, like, how my mom tried to communicate to me, like, 0.59

00:05:19.640 this person's gay and and the language that she used you know and she's not like she would that

00:05:24.860 it was not a homophobic thing it was just like how do you talk about that how did the radio talk

00:05:29.360 about it how did the language of the songs work right totally to be very ambiguous in terms of

00:05:37.160 who is coming to melissa etheridge's window

00:05:40.440 100 it was gender neutral it was vague but it was very thinly veiled you know so

00:05:49.020 So I would love to hear how you started thinking, like, why is it important for us to historicize this?

00:05:55.600 Like, why is it important for us to understand that this is not coming out of nowhere?

00:05:59.640 Right. Well, I think for me, growing up in Michigan and having sort of a sense that I was different somehow,

00:06:06.460 but not being able to name that queerness until age 20 felt particularly as somebody who, you know,

00:06:14.120 wanted to believe that I knew myself, that I was, you know, on a path somewhere, but like just maybe

00:06:19.860 it was didn't include boys for some reason. Every other girl was worried about that. So come to find

00:06:25.700 out, cliche, go to college, art school, you know, in Chicago and wow, I'm gay. Well, I mean, for one

00:06:31.940 thing, I felt, wow, I can't believe that I had no sense of self, but also sense of lineage for

00:06:39.240 for this being possible.

00:06:41.080 And particularly in Michigan, where they have, you know, had for 40 years,

00:06:47.580 the longest running Michigan Women's Music Festival,

00:06:50.120 like the largest convening of, you know, not just lesbians,

00:06:54.660 but particularly lesbians around women in music, musical performances,

00:06:59.380 Tracy Chapman having performed there, Indigo Girls, like we've, like a huge,

00:07:03.620 like this is the precursor to Lilith Fair.

00:07:05.720 And I remember having my consciousness around Lilith Fair was tied to homophobia in the way that I was on a basketball team with a bunch of girls who came back from going to Lilith Fair the first round.

00:07:19.680 I didn't go to the first round. I went to the second round.

00:07:21.700 But and having photos they had taken of women kissing there and laughing about it.

00:07:26.600 They had like particularly taken photos of women like, oh, lol, these lesbians, you know, and me associating Lilith Fair and Melissa Etheridge. 0.52

00:07:35.720 and Katie Lang and even like Sophie B Hawkins or women that were very palpably queer, Tracy Chapman

00:07:41.780 on the radio, on MTV and being so intrigued and wanting to be able to enjoy it or identify with 0.53

00:07:48.900 it, but feeling scared, feeling like I couldn't, I didn't even know, I didn't even know what to do

00:07:53.940 with it. And so I hated that. I, it took me until it took me to be able to have an appreciation

00:07:59.500 And along the way, go back into, you know, as a music critic, as a music writer, why I had devalued women in particular as artists, why I'd fallen into the same thing that most male rock critics do, which is defaulting to like what males think are straight, says males a lot of the time, white, are the most important or that women are less than, that queer people are less than. 0.84

00:08:23.860 Even though the entire time queer women, queer people, people of color have been the most creative, arguably the most inventive and always like invisible in plain sight.

00:08:36.060 You know, whether that's Dusty Springfield, you know, whether that's Nona Hendrix and LaBelle or Song Grader.

00:08:42.520 You know, there's just been so many queer women and queer people that have really been a part of music history that don't get their due.

00:08:48.660 And so it just kind of became a personal mission to find myself in the music that was, you know, available, but also that I wasn't able to connect with in the way that I think now people are able to do with Chaperone, with Billie Eilish and, you know, before that with Lady Gaga or Madonna or, you know, so the VMAs are a huge part of this too, you know.

00:09:09.360 I think sometimes there is a tendency to evacuate history and be like, can you believe this person is doing this?

00:09:16.780 Like, how incredibly brave of them, right, without acknowledging all of the very small steps that were taken over time to make what is possible possible today.

00:09:29.120 And that is true in so many different realms of life.

00:09:32.240 and so I think like it's not just like well you don't know how hard it was in the 90s to like

00:09:38.760 someone who was like to like Melissa Atherich right to say publicly I like indigo girls or

00:09:44.440 something like that yep um so I think before we get to the questions we should talk about what

00:09:50.520 has actually changed right because like there was basically like a PR mandate that you could like

00:09:58.000 hint at being queer and it wasn't that you had to like I don't know have a fake relationship

00:10:05.400 to make it seem like you were straight but like record labels if they wanted a star to be

00:10:11.640 mainstream there was a very particular way that you could talk about your sexuality or

00:10:17.380 the way that you had to be even groomed and present yourself in music videos and that sort of thing

00:10:22.520 yeah and the thinking was you could not attract a broad audience if you were out so what do you

00:10:28.420 think has changed well I think there's a lot of different factors but um and that's why it's so

00:10:34.300 important to me to be able to you know set this in the context of all the people that and all the

00:10:38.540 work that has been done but I think that there was probably like a very palpable shift in you know

00:10:44.140 like the mid-aughts yeah with like say 2008 for example when I kissed a girl comes out and it

00:10:51.160 feels for a lot of people like wow this is like the first time we've heard this kind of song about

00:10:57.720 this experience and even though of course for many people who um are lesbian identified or

00:11:03.880 didn't appreciate the sort of like bi curiosity aspect of it you know or like the permission from

00:11:10.580 the boyfriend and all of that you know this was this was coming out of madonna britney and christina

00:11:16.180 Aguilera's kiss on the VMAs it's like this sort of like titillating bisexuality yeah and um it was

00:11:23.640 it's funny because every time it's just like lesbian chic in 1992 it's always like sort of 0.97

00:11:27.640 a trend it's like yeah lesbians are cool trend for as long as it's cool right so um I hope that 0.84

00:11:33.160 that's not what's going to be happening now with the sapphic pop I hope that it's going to become 1.00

00:11:37.200 just like more part of the course like yes queer women are just like naturally you know headlining 0.99

00:11:41.260 Coachella and on the cover of Rolling Stone wow so I think like that being and Lady Gaga like Lady 1.00

00:11:48.280 Gaga I think like the born this way the um no matter gay straight or white you know like the

00:11:54.720 whole like and even though she's it's been funny to see if she's positioning herself because she's 0.94

00:12:01.200 done it herself sort of like if she's is she bisexual is she an ally but it's like doesn't

00:12:04.480 really matter it's more with Lady Gaga I think about this sort of like she felt like part she

00:12:10.220 was one of us like is one of us in a way that maybe wasn't i mean and madonna arguably too

00:12:16.500 right but i think there was something about like lady gaga and it's funny to keep coming back to

00:12:21.420 the vmas but i think it's just such a like you know these things have really played themselves

00:12:25.340 out in mtv because it's been the most available for these kinds of things yeah and like also

00:12:30.340 an awards show that is open to and courting transgression however you want to define that

00:12:37.220 yeah so i think it's right that the vmas are a site of a lot of this like

00:12:41.360 public performance yeah yeah and but then at the same time you have same love right on the

00:12:46.620 so then this is a huge and it's like these are the songs that are come in even if you're not gay

00:12:53.260 and like be with us over here because like this is where like the cool people are in an old in

00:12:58.800 albama america um you know i and it's funny because like of course i live in a bubble because

00:13:04.720 I live in L.A. now. When I go home to Michigan in a couple of weeks, I'm going to feel like

00:13:08.180 right before the election, especially it's going to be like, oh, no, wait, this is, you know, 1.00

00:13:12.100 such a different experience of, you know, and this is what queer kids in the Midwest are up

00:13:16.720 against. So they have a chapel room or they had a Lady Gaga to be like, there is a way 0.98

00:13:22.180 to be me, to be queer. And maybe it is now staying in the Midwest as opposed to getting out,

00:13:28.940 you know, because it used to be like, you just got to go to a big city and then you'll be happy

00:13:31.900 free but now it's like I I want for there to be the possibility of you know enjoying your life

00:13:39.560 see hearing yourself in pop but then also country you know because a lot of people in rural

00:13:44.160 midwest even though you know country is always assumed to be so southern it's like no actually

00:13:47.840 it's like country was huge and is huge you know country is a whole other conversation but just

00:13:52.160 to say that it is popular music where I'm from and I think that 2008 era those early

00:14:00.140 odd era of like sexual fluidity and openness, you know, along with what was going on politically

00:14:06.600 and like, you know, finally getting equal marriage in 2015 and things like that have

00:14:10.560 just led us here in a way that the people like Chapel Rowan who have grown up in that

00:14:14.340 era and were songwriting in there and watching RuPaul's Drag Race on television and having

00:14:18.240 access to transgression more and more, you know, this is the future liberals wanted.

00:14:23.260 well and it's also like if you look at attitudes about like acceptance of gay people acceptance of

00:14:30.980 trans people like it just all it always is like there's more acceptance the younger you are right

00:14:36.120 so as people have aged into the primary demographic of for consuming pop they're like yeah of course

00:14:43.780 it's okay to be an out queer star right yeah yeah okay so our questions we got some really

00:14:50.920 good ones. They're complex. Yeah, you did. But I think we could get into it. So this first 0.99

00:14:55.920 question comes from Jerry. Why is there such a strong flavor of the music of the 80s tied to

00:15:01.820 queer pop to this day? You can definitely feel it in Chapel Rhone's music and many of her onstage

00:15:07.260 costumes. Did the growing fight for queer liberation in the 80s create a permanent

00:15:12.440 through line? And will we always associate that music with the queer community? I can't wait for

00:15:19.440 your answer on this? Well, I mean, so much to think about there, because there's a lot going

00:15:24.300 on in the 80s. But I love the addition of asking if it was the political landscape. Yeah, because

00:15:28.760 I absolutely think that organizations like ACT UP had a direct impact on the ways in which we now

00:15:37.600 sort of interact, like in that politics and pop music have kind of come together, like even just

00:15:44.960 thinking about how involved Madonna was with um anything to do around AIDS in the 80s and how

00:15:50.200 that was sort of still you know it was very stigmatized it wasn't you know someone like her

00:15:55.420 making it okay someone like Cyndi Lauper having a lesbian sister and always speaking out against

00:16:00.280 homophobia in addition to the fact that the music of the 80s was very like you know the new wave 0.73

00:16:09.060 the punk exactly uh out of disco like it was queer it was like queer people um so when you 0.50

00:16:17.080 know in addition to when AIDS is happening and then also there's all these you know new sort of 0.72

00:16:21.800 like musical inventions that people are having um fun with and that uh is also culture club

00:16:28.700 queen George George Michael you know like a lot of yeah Wendy and Lisa with Prince I mean that is

00:16:36.300 Right. Especially with sapphic like that is something I hope that the younger generation looks into Wendy and Lisa, because I definitely see a lot of their influence.

00:16:48.380 And of course, Madonna getting into the early 90s also with her sex book.

00:16:53.140 Yeah. And, you know, justify my love having like pansexual orgies and things of that nature. 0.98

00:16:58.020 Like anyway, the 80s, I think, were pivotal and making a comeback specifically because even if someone like Chaperone doesn't necessarily I don't want to speak for her and say she doesn't understand like the or know that history or where, you know, maybe she hasn't studied Cyndi Lauper's career or Kate Bush's career or anything like that.

00:17:16.320 But it's inevitable that, you know, especially drag queens and people that were a part of, you know, the Vogue ballroom scene, all of it kind of coalesces in the way that we see pop like divas now that greatly influence and always have like Bette Midler and Barbra Streisand and stuff.

00:17:35.800 but um Whitney Houston Whitney Houston queer sapphic pop icon also frequently gets called a

00:17:41.060 gay icon which I think is you know true but at the same time I think we also as queer women like

00:17:46.700 should definitely like claim her and lift her as you know one of ours yeah and that all is

00:17:51.660 strikes me as like absolutely true and also we have to just remember that like the 80s are in

00:17:57.200 just broadly right now totally like the 80s and early 90s and so there are these echoes that are

00:18:03.720 happening across pop. So like we could talk about the sound in some of this music, but we also would

00:18:10.180 talk about it in like Sabrina Carpenter's music, you know? So next question. This is also about

00:18:16.520 history. And this comes from Una. I saw a TikTok on Instagram to accurately date myself, where the

00:18:22.880 young woman was going on about this festival in the 90s with a female only lineup called Lilith

00:18:30.340 fair. And another time someone posted to Twitter how Chapel Rowan was the first best lesbian pop

00:18:36.740 singer. And so everyone retweeted it with photos of the Indigo Girls. So what can we do to stop

00:18:42.200 the collective amnesia of female culture? And I'm sure there's got to be a better term for this, 1.00

00:18:46.880 but here we are. I've experienced this before, and it's not just pop music. Sometimes it's the

00:18:52.280 work that went into laws that were never passed looking at you era okay so we've talked about

00:19:00.780 this a little bit but i feel like we should do a little bit of table setting for like

00:19:04.200 queer women in the music industry in the 1990s so like and and just like that you know you talk

00:19:12.400 about this a little bit in the piece going back to like the 70s and and other music festivals

00:19:17.040 like this idea of like women's music. Tell me more. So women's music was directly out of women's

00:19:24.960 liberation. You know, there were a lot of women coming together for the first time out of gay

00:19:29.700 liberation. Also, you know, in civil rights, I mean, people were getting politically active and

00:19:33.140 women were coming together. And when women get together, just like they have in any gendered

00:19:37.780 space, like in World War Two, or, you know, Girl Scouts, there's going to be an opportunity for

00:19:43.440 them to share experiences and make connections that you're otherwise isolated from, right? So

00:19:48.560 I think, or I know that women's music festivals, particularly around the fact that they were

00:19:56.440 particularly lesbians, singing songs about the experience of being a woman, being a woman who's

00:20:04.580 in love with another woman. And also, I should say, making it a priority to rediscover songs

00:20:10.820 from the past like the reason we know about all of that um those past sapphic songs are from the

00:20:15.580 work of the women who out of women's liberation were like there's we're gonna find they certainly

00:20:21.540 they've been here before we will identify them and then bring them back into our repertoire or

00:20:26.400 print their lyrics and women's magazines or feminist magazines and things so um women's 0.67

00:20:32.120 music festivals really gave women the chance to perform to skill share to learn how to put on a

00:20:38.380 show at their local YMCA to run sound, you know, to do a lot of things that empower women in music

00:20:45.300 more broadly, not just the artists. So it was very important. But also, you know, and why Sarah

00:20:51.100 McLaughlin started Lilith Fair was because in more mainstream music, it was women were pitted 1.00

00:20:56.960 against each other and looked at as competition. And so frequently, unfortunately, it was the case 1.00

00:21:02.400 that you wouldn't bring another woman to open for you on tour you would perform as one woman

00:21:08.520 among many men because there can only be one there's only room for one we're only going to

00:21:13.240 play one woman on the radio and you know um so that's you know that's something that Sarah 1.00

00:21:17.960 McLachlan luckily was like no I want to play with all those these different women that I want to

00:21:23.800 play with we're going to take it on the road and all that I think is important now for people to

00:21:29.120 know is that that wasn't the first. Yeah. It came out of a line of other women who have been doing

00:21:34.500 this work, but I am happy that now the conversation is, well, where did this come from and how do we

00:21:39.740 get here? And then, you know, to say there's a documentary coming out about Lilith Fair next

00:21:43.440 year. Yes. That there's, you know, like that there are these opportunities. Yes. Yes. No,

00:21:50.120 that's how I felt. I know. I was like, yay. You know, like, finally. No, I mean, and that's how

00:21:58.040 it should be because you know brandy carlisle isn't coming out of nowhere right you know she

00:22:02.900 performed at a small stage at lilith fair when i had a you know so i i think it's so um and i think

00:22:09.980 i hope that people get excited to learn about all of that because you know you know it's great to

00:22:16.160 have new and exciting and feel like something's first and like definitely i think billy eilish

00:22:20.800 and top of rowan will have like a lot of firsts as part of their career but you know that just

00:22:26.020 like, I know we're going to talk about this a little bit, but JoJo Siwa saying she invented

00:22:29.540 gay pop. It's just like, just to be accurate, because we want to be respectful and also

00:22:35.060 honor what's already been. I've really appreciated what Brandi Carlisle has done in this space,

00:22:40.900 because, you know, not only is she obsessed with championing the work of her musical influences,

00:22:49.780 whether that's Joni Mitchell or Tanya Tucker, and Brandi also, you know, she had Sarah McLaughlin

00:22:55.260 at a concert the year before that and she talked so much about how she had been

00:23:03.360 sitting you know in the wall on the wall of the amphitheater at the gorge a washington state kid

00:23:10.800 watching sarah mclaughlin at lilith fair and that was made you know and and also all of these other

00:23:17.680 women right who were queer and that was what made her think like this future is possible for me 0.96

00:23:24.960 and like she says that explicitly over and over at her concert so there's no way that you can

00:23:31.020 forget like i am coming from a lineage 100 and with the indigo girls too she has been extremely

00:23:36.720 um involved with making sure the indigo girls have gotten their due yeah that they have like

00:23:43.460 and i think it's so important because the indigo girls i mean and there's a great documentary that

00:23:47.140 came out about them in the last year that i think is worth any fan seeing um but also in particular

00:23:52.300 anyone who's interested in how in the 80s being visibly lesbian and trying to have a major label

00:23:59.340 career and what you're sort of allowed to say or how you decide as a person who's been living out

00:24:07.040 already right and you know especially for them it's like there was two of them so they had to

00:24:11.260 then exactly okay we're both gonna be good so it's like but but brandy carlisle finding the

00:24:19.320 into girls just like many other you know women whether they're queer or not you know and just 0.98

00:24:26.100 being able to to find something in their music that wasn't available elsewhere because but but

00:24:32.620 then also knowing that they're gay and just being like good with it whether that's because you're

00:24:37.080 attracted to them or because you find commonality in that way or because you know you just happen to

00:24:42.800 find something particular in their songs that connects with you but I think you know that's

00:24:47.520 that's what I want people to understand too.

00:24:48.880 It's like not every song has to be explicitly lesbian for a lesbian artist or a

00:24:53.380 queer artist or a sapphic artist,

00:24:54.880 a sapphic song to have to land with you in some way.

00:24:57.180 And I think like people are now just more open radio.

00:25:00.620 It can be played on the radio without it being,

00:25:02.880 I was in a nail salon the other day before school started with all the kids. 0.59

00:25:08.200 So little girls were in there with their moms getting their nails done.

00:25:10.620 And we were listening to Chapel Rhone.

00:25:12.800 Knee deep in the messenger seat and you're eating me.

00:25:15.960 And I'm just like loving it because, you know, it's the lyrical content is probably going over their head.

00:25:21.060 But, you know, the idea of this being just like part of the landscape now is exciting to me in a way that I just never really felt.

00:25:30.760 Like with Melissa Athers, of course, I could hear it and I knew gay and like, but it's just it's different.

00:25:35.600 It is more explicit. And I think that it's there's a power in that that is it's just really fun to think about.

00:25:42.120 You know, I connected to the Indigo Girls when I was a teenager because they spoke so explicitly and rawly about, like, love and feeling and, like, just the, like, there was no shame or runaround.

00:25:59.840 It was like, I'm in love with your ghost, you know?

00:26:04.980 I loved that.

00:26:05.940 They were great songwriters.

00:26:07.320 They are great songwriters.

00:26:07.980 Oh, my gosh.

00:26:08.260 They are great songwriters.

00:26:09.520 Yeah.

00:26:09.960 I also appreciate like I don't want to give any too many laurels to like a white straight guy but

00:26:15.680 Bon Iver loves indigo girls and that was the first time that I saw them as an adult was at one of his

00:26:23.820 festivals because he was nice they are huge influences on him and even I love that yeah I

00:26:30.300 love that yeah me too that is just like yeah they're really good musicians and I love them

00:26:34.700 and I want them here at my festival right we don't need your approval Bon Iver but we will take it

00:26:39.340 and we will love it because we I mean that's the thing is like we and I say we but like queer women

00:26:44.900 like they deserve the respect at the very least of people for their part in moving the needle 0.94

00:26:51.300 forward with music if not in queerness and visibility like they don't owe us the visibility

00:26:57.180 or you know it's like but they have provided they have given something to music that is across the

00:27:02.660 board and I think that when people acknowledge that that is so helpful whether they are a straight

00:27:07.420 guy or whatever it's like this this is exactly what i want for them is just to give the credit

00:27:11.780 just to get credit you know okay this is a good setup too for our next question which comes from

00:27:17.300 elise what are the straights finding so compelling about these queer artists as a queer person who

00:27:23.060 is the target audience i'm so happy they're seeing success but i don't totally get what

00:27:27.620 straight folks are loving i mean this is like like queer people like straight artists too you know

00:27:34.020 right like i know i kind of laughed i understand where the question is coming from no for sure

00:27:40.680 so we can talk about that but i also think like you know like music doesn't have to be addressed

00:27:46.240 to you for you to to love it i guess yeah it is funny because i think like really the it's like

00:27:52.140 why now kind of like why is this why are they finally catching up because truly it's like

00:27:55.980 people have been fans of you know george michael whitney houston you know people that are queer

00:28:01.200 like for a long time but I think like the explicit nature of it is you know one thing

00:28:06.160 Chapel Roan I think is such a focus of a lot of the questions around this because I think like

00:28:10.240 somebody like the her nature of performing versus someone like Billie Eilish is a little bit

00:28:14.820 different and I think straight people just like love Billie Eilish and they she can do no wrong

00:28:18.380 but like Chapel Roan why she's been able to build up her own following without having the kind of

00:28:23.500 platform that Billie Eilish has had for a couple years you know is that I think a lot of her story

00:28:29.320 in her album is about going through this like self-discovery and being able to find who she is

00:28:39.380 and yes that is includes for her specifically being a queer person so um that queer people

00:28:44.220 like really are drawn to that but I think generally more broadly that's something that people

00:28:49.720 of all identities can hear and you know especially with her like catchy bops like there's no way to

00:28:55.860 not already just like out connect with that when you when you hear them I think um but I think that

00:29:02.080 she has this ability to especially with people young people that have grown up with RuPaul's

00:29:09.260 Drag Race on television and Lady Gaga and things of that nature I think it's kind of a little bit

00:29:13.540 more uh par for the course but also exciting in that she's like reinventing some things that we

00:29:21.240 might as like as a 40 year old I might know has been referenced from elsewhere but that she also

00:29:26.660 isn't afraid to give credit to and it's like she's a Karen Carpenter fan which I think is amazing

00:29:32.780 yeah I love Karen Carpenter and so I can hear like so then when I can hear some of that in her work

00:29:36.640 which is great um anyway so I think straight people have been loving queer artists for so long

00:29:41.540 that now it's even more acceptable that it's probably just more palpable for an artist like

00:29:46.800 Chapel Rhone who is such a I don't I hate to use the word spectacle because I don't know if that's

00:29:52.860 exactly what I mean but just like when you are watching her she's putting on a show in a way 0.97

00:29:59.760 that feels um like she borrows from burlesque she says she borrows from drag it's just like a it's

00:30:05.700 like what queer people have been doing but that straight people are now finally in a place of

00:30:09.920 acceptance because they don't feel like they'll be labeled as queer if they're participating

00:30:14.100 yeah no i think that's super real that's super real right like you like there isn't this

00:30:19.900 like amorphous well i think there is for some people still but i think for younger people

00:30:25.460 in north america i think that like you can have put it on your playlist and there isn't this fear

00:30:33.200 like there was in the 90s and before of like oh are you gay 100 that you would have to like have

00:30:40.680 this conversation this tiresome onerous conversation filled with homophobia um yeah so i think that

00:30:48.200 that's part of it i mean the indigo girls in their documentary discuss like how their name would be

00:30:52.400 used as a punchline as a joke as a euphemism for lesbians yes and now i don't think that i would

00:30:58.300 not expect there to be jokes in the same way about chapel world like i just i can't even imagine it 0.96

00:31:02.800 feels like tacky or distasteful and that's amazing yes right you're like that's a dumb joke and it 0.81

00:31:10.660 always has been a dumb joke but now it's like no that's a really dumb joke yeah exactly okay so 0.83

00:31:16.260 next question melody wants us to get to this question this is like a summer related question 0.73

00:31:23.060 but it's not like no do not say i wanted it just pee up the question

00:31:28.000 so we did get a question from a listener who wanted to know why so many songs included 0.73

00:31:34.880 references to oral sex i saw that yeah i love thinking about it i really did love thinking

00:31:40.740 about it and like we should clarify that there have been songs referencing blowjobs for like 0.90

00:31:45.240 decades uh so i think this person is asking about cunnilingus i do think that it has been

00:31:51.400 understood you know just like the way in the long history even of straight sex right that like 0.88

00:31:57.300 cunnilingus is somehow like feminizing and abject in a way that like a blowjob is not 0.93

00:32:04.420 right um so what do you think's going on here yeah it's so funny because I always think about 0.98

00:32:09.700 how DJ Khaled made that like you know ridiculous remark about like I don't do that and like everyone 0.51

00:32:14.620 felt so bad for his wife and it's like you know yeah that's fucked up I'm sorry sorry for swearing 0.83

00:32:19.580 no you can swear it is okay it's also it's such like a retrograde understanding right like yeah 0.94

00:32:26.040 yeah uh like sounds like it's feminizing yeah yeah and I think that it's so amazing that this

00:32:34.860 is happening now because it really does speak to how women are being able to own their sexuality

00:32:41.720 more generally so whether it's like you're eating another woman she's eating you to use the uh the

00:32:48.780 eat that girl for lunch is what I'm thinking that's why I use that particular turn of phrase

00:32:54.140 But, you know, I was really, I loved someone when Lunch first came out,

00:32:59.120 remixed Constant Craving and Lunch, Katie Lang.

00:33:03.800 And I was like, yes, because this, again,

00:33:07.300 like the whole idea of like being devoured or, you know, this kind of thing.

00:33:12.480 I mean, yes, we are talking about Cunnilingus.

00:33:14.320 Like, I mean, I guess more directly,

00:33:16.280 Chaperone is saying, you know, eating me out in the passenger seat.

00:33:19.640 Lunch, I see, is more like just sort of, I mean, it's a through line,

00:33:22.540 but it's not the song isn't necessarily about cunnilingus but like it is you know cunnilingus 0.79

00:33:26.700 is mentioned right or is referenced yeah it's more about like oh i just need this girl like i

00:33:30.640 just want it and everybody can connect to that feeling like and just like you know just starting

00:33:34.800 with such a um the way that it's immediately understood if you want to eat somebody for lunch

00:33:39.520 what that feeling is you know so and so the fact that it's about another woman and the fact that

00:33:43.860 it gives you like this very um this image or whatever it is that you picture but it has to

00:33:49.340 do with that I mean it's it's just it's sexy it's kind of like it makes you want to kind of like

00:33:54.240 bite your lip or something it like just gives you this palpable feeling and so I think it's less

00:33:58.400 about the actual act but I will say that um part of like lesbian culture for so long has been my 0.60

00:34:05.360 neck and my back yeah like you could not go like like lesbian parties like DJs will be playing my

00:34:10.660 neck and my back and it's like because there's such a uh power to be able to feel like we have

00:34:18.480 anything close to resembling what it might be like you know to be giving or receiving something

00:34:25.480 that doesn't have to do with a man telling us and this is in hip-hop too like women lately have been

00:34:30.820 yeah whether they're receiving it it have been like you know you're eating eat this cookie you

00:34:36.880 know like that and i am loving it i love it i'm on board i i also recommend that people if you

00:34:43.700 haven't heard constant craving because i think some if you are slightly younger than us you might

00:34:47.640 not have heard it and it is an incredible song so it will evoke some feelings in you if you and we

00:34:55.140 will put it in the show notes for sure right um okay so this is our last question and it comes

00:35:01.300 with a built-in segue so let's hear from love i think we can't talk about sapphic pop without

00:35:06.740 talking about jojo siwa who infamously claimed to have created the genre of gay pop just a few

00:35:12.140 months ago i've noticed that all the pushback and the very real amount of hate she's gotten online

00:35:17.080 has either been about this gaffe or about her general self-imposed oversaturation on social

00:35:22.320 media. But almost none of the hate I've seen has been because she's gay. Instead, it seems like she 0.91

00:35:27.740 gets to somewhat safely be a spectacle of a quite young, extremely out gold star lesbian. Is this 1.00

00:35:34.560 true? Or is it the Instagram algorithm somehow hiding the homophobic comments from me? And is

00:35:39.420 it true of the other queer pop girlies like Billie Eilish and Chappell? Have we reached a 0.92

00:35:43.620 world where homophobia of this type is mostly dead okay so we will play the clip from jojo siwa

00:35:49.520 for people fortunate enough to not know it the genre is i said it back in the day when i first

00:35:55.400 signed with columbia i said i wanted to start a new genre of music and they said what do you mean

00:35:58.760 and i said well it's called gay pop and they were like what's that and i was like it's like k-pop

00:36:03.880 right but it's gay pop i love jojo siwa like i feel a lot of compassion for her i don't know

00:36:11.680 what do you think yeah I mean I think she plays a particular role in popular culture that might

00:36:17.000 not necessarily be musical for people yeah you know what I mean like I think she you know god

00:36:21.300 bless her for trying to make music I think she's not really a singer you know I think she's she's

00:36:25.520 a wonderful dancer you know she's a great dancer you know like her role is being so out and proud

00:36:32.780 and I don't know if the gold star part is important to anybody but you know being so herself after

00:36:38.760 being a child star who has made like I mean millions of dollars with young girls in particular

00:36:45.940 but also boys and you know other gender non-conforming people but like I know you know

00:36:50.140 I have friends who are parents with their daughters who I would like read them Jojo Siwa books before

00:36:54.120 they went to bed at night you know so I'm like she is a uh I think probably her queerness is so

00:37:02.080 not important to people in a way that is great but I also feel that if you asked her I'm sure

00:37:07.840 she has a lot of experiences with homophobia yeah that would probably change the way that we feel

00:37:14.880 about it I think she does get a lot of hate from gay people that aren't going to so maybe I'm you

00:37:20.580 know because I like I said I feel like I live in a bubble like a queer bubble right so most of my 0.78

00:37:23.800 algorithm is probably going to show me you know maybe queer people who are like oh Jojo Siwa she

00:37:29.280 thinks she invented gay pop like and the sentiment is going to be less about like you know anti-gay

00:37:34.660 and more just like eye roll corny kind of thing totally so it might be an algorithm thing because

00:37:39.980 i'm sure and certain that queer women get homophobic based hate but um sometimes i think

00:37:46.540 maybe homophobia is baked into more general hate or maybe sometimes people are exhibiting

00:37:51.340 internal homophobia on people this way so it's hard to say i i think unfortunately i see more

00:37:58.140 uh i see a lot of queer people not really loving missy well but i think it's probably also part of

00:38:03.500 the fact that she did say something that is upsetting to people which is you know you're not

00:38:08.480 inventing something that hasn't already been going on and that you're you're blessed to be a part of

00:38:13.020 because you wouldn't be able to be out if other gay pop stars hadn't come out first right right

00:38:18.580 and you know when you get so much more representation which like i don't love that

00:38:23.800 word but at the same time like it's part of what we're talking about here she doesn't have to be

00:38:28.060 the like spokesperson like she's not the only one like like one of the privileges of

00:38:35.100 of expanding representation is being like I don't like that person and I don't have to like that 0.55

00:38:40.260 person just because she's an out gay pop star you know what I mean exactly I know for real though

00:38:47.800 it's like we don't have to I don't have to listen to her music like I can still like appreciate that

00:38:52.100 she is doing her thing but I don't have to yeah I think a lot about how she probably

00:38:57.920 had people in her life whether it's publicists like media handler like you know part of her team

00:39:04.760 that told her that she shouldn't be publicly gay totally oh yeah no I feel the same way I mean 0.52

00:39:12.780 that's why it's like I feel you know she definitely can put her foot in her mouth with things of you

00:39:17.240 know that nature but I think um I definitely do feel compassion for her too um but she's also

00:39:22.520 she definitely knows how to brand herself yes like she's good at capitalism she's so good at

00:39:28.100 capitalism like oh my god so um i don't feel that bad no no i want to be clear like i think it's 0.85

00:39:37.320 okay to talk shit about it but i also like yeah yeah yeah that's just okay so the other day we 0.77

00:39:46.840 were recording a podcast episode about women's sports and like women's sports have never been 0.98

00:39:50.620 more popular never been more visible and also trans panic and like chromosomal testing in women's

00:40:00.420 sports like there's never been more anxiety about who is allowed to be in in these sports and so

00:40:07.000 like i think part of the question or something that we just want to try to address is how do we

00:40:12.460 square the visibility the popularity of queer pop of explicit descriptions of gay sex right like

00:40:22.560 it is such an incredibly visible part of our pop culture moment with so much political

00:40:29.680 anti-lgbtq plus sentiment like what do you think that those are connected like as part of the

00:40:36.860 backlash like this idea that like liberals and gay people are trying to take over the media and 0.64

00:40:41.960 turn everyone trans like I do think that's part of the messaging on the right I think that this

00:40:46.320 is like completely related in a way that is probably not even been like fully investigated

00:40:52.420 but probably should be more and I actually have like friends that have been doing a lot of great

00:40:56.980 work my friend Kate Salson at the 19th um if you're familiar with that publication does a lot

00:41:01.060 of great coverage on connecting some things like this but I think in particular with like sapphic

00:41:06.060 pop and the idea of people investing in artists who are not afraid to uh speak out about political

00:41:15.360 things of this like and even like with somebody like taylor swift you know coming out with an

00:41:19.020 endorsement for kamala it's like i've never been more um excited i feel like to see the support

00:41:27.400 from queer artists in a way that they're not afraid to put themselves out there for something

00:41:34.460 um political or against the drag bands or you know i feel like there's a lot more of the two being

00:41:41.040 um weaved together because like so say okay the indigo girls for example they've been on this last

00:41:46.260 tour um or the last yeah they just toured with melissa etheridge which amazing uh what a what

00:41:51.460 a package duo but anyways they when they were on tour they had uh behind them this huge um the

00:41:58.020 backdrop was all banned books right so it's like a bunch of like the you know anything that people

00:42:02.800 would put under the idea of like critical race theory or queer LGBT related things like I just

00:42:08.860 thought wow what an incredible way to include that right in because it's all related because

00:42:13.860 it's all related right it's all related right so um I feel like the fact that conservatives in

00:42:20.880 particular are so willing to use this as you know to use like uh panic over trans people

00:42:27.860 limiting their abilities to be able to get gender surgery or access to hormones or anything of that

00:42:36.540 nature like i think they're using the fervor like the almost like the positive fervor yes of like

00:42:43.360 lgbtq people and allies to try to inspire more fear in people that are maybe in the midwest of

00:42:50.840 that but think they don't know a queer person you know and then unfortunately you have public

00:42:55.820 facing people like Caitlyn Jenner, you know, who are using their public platform to sort of,

00:43:03.020 you know, feed into those fears, which doesn't help. So anyway, I mean, it's all related. But

00:43:07.180 all this to say that I think it's extremely powerful that in the face of all of these

00:43:12.440 terrible initiatives and policies that conservatives are trying to incite fear in

00:43:17.480 people and transphobia and homophobia and all of that, I mean, it's nothing new. But at the same

00:43:21.880 time it's definitely more of a focus and included in a presidential debate even the word transgender

00:43:27.120 being included in the presidential debate is because we are so much more visible and palpable

00:43:32.100 and in in their faces and they perceive that as you know being a threat to their power in the

00:43:38.340 patriarchy so good yes like it's like the more visibility the more fear on days when i'm feeling

00:43:45.780 optimistic it feels like the last gasp yeah like it's just like all of this anger and fear

00:43:51.360 of a group of people who just like are terrified of change and of losing control of like

00:43:58.680 people they think are like them like being in charge of culture deciding what is popular

00:44:04.560 so that's at least i hope right like or we're just gonna go it's we're in a complete regression and

00:44:12.660 everything's gonna be bad for another it's real like control of bodies control of identity to

00:44:17.240 Control is the right word. 0.98

00:44:18.380 Like, and that is why it's so amazing that these queer women are like, no, I'm fucking 1.00

00:44:23.120 Jonah Ark. 1.00

00:44:26.840 And Chapel Roan's on the VMA's red carpet saying, you don't fucking talk to me like 0.97

00:44:30.420 that photographer or, you know, like being able to not feel like you can't be yourself, 0.97

00:44:38.280 set boundaries, say this is not okay.

00:44:41.080 You know, like the things that I think, especially queer people and women and people of color 0.98

00:44:45.760 or that you're just lucky to be here.

00:44:47.240 you should be so grateful you have a record contract you should you know like we'll do this

00:44:51.860 if you agree to this you know so it's like no actually you can be you can be chapel row and

00:44:57.500 get dropped from your record label continue to work on it you know your music anyway in the face

00:45:02.120 of all that yep and find a cult following and then become a massive superstar so there you go

00:45:07.900 yeah okay so to close the show i would love for us to talk about some artists that are part of

00:45:16.980 this sapphic pop movement that you think people should listen to some of them can be new some of

00:45:21.580 them can be older i just like what's your like who's on your playlist but this answer and my

00:45:28.480 own recommendations are today's ask in anything so only paid subscribers good to hear it if you

00:45:33.860 need more sapphic pop in your life head to culturestudypod.substack.com and sign up

00:45:39.560 trish where can people find you on the internet if they want to find more of your work

00:45:43.080 Sure. So I would direct people to my sub stack. It's called Lit Femme. And that's where I, you know, because I'm a full time hustler, a freelancer. So I live in a lot of different places. But my my sub stack is where I write a lot about queer women culture and history and contextualizing these things. So if you're if you're interested in that kind of stuff, join my little community.

00:46:08.520 Amazing. Thank you so much. This has been like a true delight.

00:46:11.620 Thank you so much.

00:46:13.080 thank you so much for listening to the culture study podcast be sure to subscribe wherever you

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00:46:31.700 or submit a question for our subscriber only advice time segment check the show notes for

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00:47:05.460 find me on Instagram at Anne Helen Peterson, Melody at Melodious47, and the show at Culture

00:47:11.820 study pod. Thank you so much for your support.

Culture Study Podcast - September 18, 2024

Sapphic Pop, So Hot Right Now

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