Culture Study Podcast - Why Are Men's Clothes All Earth Tones

00:00:00.000 Hey, it's Anne. Just wanted to let you know that we're taking next week off. This is one of only

00:00:04.480 two weeks that Melody and I take off from the podcast all year. And I'm going to be in Greece

00:00:10.700 and Melody is going to be at the pool recovering from another horrendous Supreme Court term. That's 0.99

00:00:15.740 because she edits strict scrutiny. So everything that the Supreme Court does has direct effects on 1.00

00:00:21.040 everyone, but especially on Melody. So this is a good chance to catch up on episodes that you

00:00:26.160 might have missed, and we'll still send out a newsletter with some fun links and prompts for

00:00:29.940 upcoming episodes. And I can promise you it will feature another photo of Melody's Porch Goose

00:00:35.060 and its special outfit for July. Thanks for listening and enjoy today's show.

00:00:45.720 This is the Culture Study Podcast, and I'm Anne Helen Peterson.

00:00:49.580 And I'm Jason Diamond. I'm a writer who lives in Brooklyn. Big surprise.

00:00:56.160 You have a beard.

00:00:57.440 I have a beard.

00:00:58.520 I have a lot of clothes.

00:00:59.760 I have a lot of opinions.

00:01:01.840 You write a lot about men's fashion.

00:01:03.920 I mean, about a lot of things, but that kind of like to me is at the core of it, but not

00:01:08.300 in like the like 10 sneakers you need now sort of way.

00:01:13.700 I mean, I do feel like those those kinds of lists are an entryway.

00:01:18.380 Either they're an entryway for some writers into that game or they probably were given

00:01:24.060 eight pairs of those sneakers for free so they have to figure out how to write about it or both

00:01:29.120 so part of the reason that I really like your approach to fashion is you've kind of taught

00:01:34.520 me how to appreciate fashion that sometimes in my mind I'm just like oh that's like dad fashion or

00:01:41.240 granddad fashion especially with celebrities like you'll on your Instagram which I will put a link

00:01:47.340 in the show notes so that everyone can can take a look you do these kind of carousels where it's

00:01:52.400 like this guy could wear a hat or like look at all the polos that this person was very adept

00:01:58.340 at choosing and like how they put them together with other things so is there is there a male

00:02:03.540 celeb like from 70s 80s whose style is particularly influential on you oh that's actually i mean okay

00:02:13.240 so and i always have to preface it with that very like middle-aged man the the not pc answer

00:02:20.660 is i mean i grew up with a lot of woody allen influence in my life yeah yeah yeah jewish

00:02:26.320 family so uh you know those movies were sadly burned into my brain at a pretty young age and

00:02:35.640 can you describe it yeah so i mean for me it's like blue oxfords um army navy jackets you can

00:02:41.940 get at the at the thrift store or an army navy surplus store khakis for me obviously like i like

00:02:48.840 i love 70s cinema so there's a ton of reference points but the one i always find myself going

00:02:56.100 back to is kramer versus kramer and dustin hoffman like it's kind of also in that same vein it's um

00:03:03.220 that weird mix of kind of you know he's got the the gucci horse bits which you know today run you

00:03:11.400 what $500 and the wide whale corduroys and the olive army jacket and it's just like that to me

00:03:19.020 is like very emblematic of like a certain mindset where it's like that character has no sense of

00:03:25.040 style but he's totally stylish right and in fiction and in cinema that works for me uh in

00:03:31.720 the real world I don't always see it playing out as much but I say I think it used to at least you

00:03:38.360 know up until a point well in fewer pieces that went together in a more like intentional way um

00:03:44.120 i always think of billy crystal when i think about points for you that you return to um

00:03:49.500 like a little bit of al pacino too his style is very like indelible to me yeah i mean he grew

00:03:57.300 into it like even like he was i think he was a pretty handsome guy for the most part i mean

00:04:02.480 obviously now we'd i think he got kind of lumped into that uh what were they calling the like the

00:04:08.820 timothys and the yeah rodent boys like he was like a boy yeah but like you know he was as michael

00:04:16.000 corleone he was very striking and suits were handsome and he looked great but um as he aged

00:04:21.960 like some of those looks are just he looks cuckoo like he looks like when he wears like those like

00:04:26.960 long like leather trenches and stuff like like sometimes al pacino looks like a really cool drug

00:04:31.780 dealer even when he's not playing one sometimes he is playing one but um yeah and then and yeah

00:04:38.540 Billy Crystal I mean from a young age he was super important to me because um I love Nora Ephron

00:04:46.520 movies and Nora Ephron in general and to me like I remember watching When Harry Met Sally be like

00:04:52.420 this is how adults look right like when I'm like in 29 30 this is how I'm gonna dress

00:04:58.640 what's a trend an older trend that you wish was like more normalized or commonplace now

00:05:04.500 I always think about hats I wish men knew how to pull up their pants like I am I am con and I think

00:05:12.680 part of it's the industry and like the low rise thing that I don't really get but I'm always like

00:05:18.620 man you could tuck that in it would look a little cooler like yeah I tuck in my t-shirt a lot and

00:05:23.180 you know I joke I'm like this is I look like John Goodman on Roseanne which John Goodman

00:05:30.580 is the king so I'm not making fun because he's so good on Roseanne and like that style too like

00:05:37.260 that style he there was a style to John Goodman on Roseanne yeah that particular I mean like to

00:05:42.660 me it's like it's funny because I always I always like to boast about my um my dual citizenship as

00:05:47.940 like a New Yorker and a Chicagoan because I was born in Chicago and I've lived in New York most

00:05:52.540 of my life and that like 80s 90s dad just it from the midwest had such an impact on me like i re-watched

00:06:02.840 um parenthood the 1989 film yes and i mean steve martin is an all like another all-timer yes

00:06:09.520 everything he wears he looks good and i don't corn cob hat corn cob hat he can pull it off

00:06:14.440 yeah every every look in the jerk he's cooler than everybody else but i was re-watching it i'm like 0.80

00:06:21.500 got rick baranis in this you've got peak keanu um where he's like gen x heartthrob um you know 0.96

00:06:30.280 you've got everything in that movie and it's it's just like that midwestern dad thing how much of

00:06:35.900 the waist thing do you or like pants do you think has to do with stuff off the rack like that

00:06:42.580 doesn't accommodate the hips to waist ratio that a lot of men have like i think that it's very

00:06:48.040 difficult to figure out where to put like where your waist is as a dude in some ways yeah i mean

00:06:55.100 the the fashion industry has really you know i could talk all day about this but i mean

00:07:02.020 i have a very weird shaped body um i like to joke i just have a real peasant body um

00:07:08.820 but not like english british you know i i have more like eastern european peasant body

00:07:15.680 yep so clothes off the rack are not made to fit me yep um so i you know i've just had to learn to

00:07:23.460 get creative and you know the way pants are sized and the way they they they come off when you go

00:07:30.720 buy them at a store or online um you know what you see is what you get so i mean i i invest in a lot

00:07:36.820 of tailoring personally yeah and that is pricey but um i find getting pants to fit me a certain

00:07:46.080 way is like for me it's key because uh pulling up my pants to a certain place where it's been cut

00:07:53.320 then it looks strange so yeah like it cuts in yeah yeah or i get the larry david pants tent which is

00:07:59.560 also awkward okay melody right before i came to record this i was like one minute late because

00:08:12.020 i was emptying my mill in my garden oh what is that like today's episode is sponsored by mill

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00:11:43.880 chef quality meal. Okay, let's get into the questions as we'll address a lot of this.

00:11:52.800 so they come today from women looking at men's fashion from the outside and then also men with

00:11:58.720 questions about what they're experiencing inside the world of men's fashion so to start off we're

00:12:03.500 gonna hear from kelly i feel like not much has changed since share and clueless said i don't

00:12:10.260 want to be a traitor to my generation and all but i don't get how guys dress today i mean come on

00:12:16.120 it looks like they just fell out of bed and put on some baggy pants and take their greasy hair

00:12:21.940 ew, and cover it up with a backwards cap and like, we're expected to swoon? I don't think so.

00:12:29.800 Why are men so lackadaisical in their fashion choices? Is it due to their relatively limited

00:12:37.120 options compared to women's clothes? Or are they just not held to the same standard to 0.94

00:12:42.400 look cute like women are? Note, I live in the Pacific Northwest where everyone is casual in 0.99

00:12:49.800 the extreme so maybe i'm not seeing put together men because of where i live ah i mean so i'll just

00:12:57.820 say first that i that i hear from a lot of men including my partner charlie that he wishes that

00:13:02.720 there were more of a sea of options in terms of like normalized things for him to wear like like

00:13:12.080 i'll get a dress in the mail or a romper and he's like it's just not fair like you get there's just

00:13:17.320 so much more playground available to you oh yeah yeah i mean my wife is one of the most stylish

00:13:23.360 human beings i know and and i'll see the i'm like you just got this from like the gap like you know

00:13:30.200 and it's like i know that's like i'm not making fun of the gap i've been wearing the gap on and

00:13:34.180 off my whole life but like i i don't find a that much good for me at the gap but she sees stuff

00:13:41.340 she's like i could i could do that i think a big part of it is that men's style has it's not

00:13:48.220 evolved it's um slowly grown like the understanding the language the the appreciation you know it

00:13:58.240 has it's a relatively new thing you weren't really seeing i mean you could pick up gq or

00:14:04.680 esquire in the in the 70s or 80s and you'd get sort of a law you know you get like here's the

00:14:10.740 10 suits here's the 10 sweaters here's the what's hot for the fall and it's it was always very

00:14:17.240 limiting and very um i don't know it kind of stayed the same for the most part every couple

00:14:22.360 years that things would just kind of go back to like urban woodsman is cool again or preppy yeah

00:14:27.360 like the like the the pants fit would slightly change right or the way that the suits were cut

00:14:32.760 i think there is this inclination to like look back on our grandparents or great-grandparents

00:14:37.480 generation and be like oh they were so fashionable then and really they just were wearing suits

00:14:41.760 right yeah and they probably only had one suit or two suits also the fabric i mean was better

00:14:47.380 yes stuff was made with quality and endurance in mind and but you know i mean to for the question

00:14:54.320 i mean you know i think it's it's absolutely true and i think a lot of it has to do with that silly

00:14:59.380 idea that like caring about how you how you dress somehow makes you less of a man right and that's

00:15:07.180 that's a trope that goes back to like you know beau brumell was you know in dandies i i oh my

00:15:12.980 friend natty adams writes a lot about dandyism and the contemporary subjects he writes about and

00:15:18.480 the and the historical ones kind of all face the same people just think they're weird or they're 0.77

00:15:24.480 gay or they're not masculine or they're whatever it's so silly but you know it just it gets passed 0.78

00:15:30.920 down from generation to generation that kind of thinking yeah like we haven't quite figured out 0.98

00:15:35.280 how you know it's like we have all these specific things like it sort of goes hand in hand to me

00:15:41.100 with the argument about how young men don't read books yeah there's a reason why we have these

00:15:46.260 tropes for young men and men in general and it's because we keep passing them down right and how

00:15:52.120 you see your own dad dress right yeah and like other men in your community and that sort of

00:15:57.320 thing how do you think that professional athletes challenge this because i think one of the way

00:16:02.360 reasons why they are able to challenge it is because there is such like a strong marker of

00:16:08.300 masculinity in their performance of athleticism does that make sense yeah i mean i definitely

00:16:14.040 think you know the nba is like the pinnacle of all that because when you look at like the nba style

00:16:20.240 how it's become the um the walk to the locker room is like the new red carpet or something

00:16:24.480 right you know when you look at the history of that you know go back 15 i think maybe years 20 0.76

00:16:30.900 years when like David Stern started imposing all those bans on how you know right mostly black 0.95

00:16:37.740 almost all black players couldn't I think like they couldn't have cornrows or they couldn't have

00:16:43.340 specific jewelry and to me that's like a really interesting thing when you go from that to what 0.97

00:16:50.680 we see now because the players were like okay then we'll just do something different and you

00:16:56.960 know you're gonna impose these bans on us and here's how we're gonna fight back and I think

00:17:00.740 that's like rebellion to me and i appreciate that yeah you know i've seen with nfl players

00:17:05.220 a little bit um hockey players and i mean i'm a huge hockey fan they seem to sort of love

00:17:10.920 kind of staying with the trope of we still have you know the minnesota hockey hair competition

00:17:17.020 is back yeah i love that stuff i mean i grew up playing so obviously soccer players are usually

00:17:23.800 pretty good looking but i do think there is something really interesting when you see

00:17:27.780 athletes doing that well and if you think about too like the the primary point of concentration

00:17:32.800 on them is on the field when they're wearing the same thing as everyone else yeah so how do you

00:17:38.200 what other ways do you mark your individuality you can perform fashion in these like game day

00:17:45.040 fits in a way that's really interesting i think people are also like have you seen all the

00:17:49.620 discourse around like travis kelsey they're like oh he thinks he's so fashionable like there's this

00:17:54.540 real disdain that he is playing around and to me i'm just like that looks fun yeah my my favorite

00:18:01.180 actually i'm also a big wrestling fan professional wrestling fan and one of the biggest wrestlers in

00:18:07.160 the wwe is seth rollins and he's an iowa guy he's born and i love he's an iowa guy and he's a chicago

00:18:13.360 bears fan so i automatically appreciate him but um he dresses you know like wrestling has always

00:18:19.740 kind of played with gender norms and uh gay baiting it's been you know the the bleach blonde 0.83

00:18:25.300 hair bad guy is a little effeminate and kind of is supposed to piss off the audience by being a 0.66

00:18:30.320 little touchy-feely maybe with his opponent or yeah uh but rollins he dresses in this really 0.78

00:18:37.440 crazy bombastic he's amazing just like these coats that like i mean drag queens would like 0.96

00:18:44.500 fall over themselves to wear like just he wore like a thirty thousand dollar suit like a couple 0.99

00:18:50.160 of nights ago or like last week and you know it's just for the entrance this dude is like tough as

00:18:55.460 hell he's and i'm like that's cool like the wwe guy coming down to the ring dressing like this

00:19:02.900 just like absolute freak that's but like with a sense of style i think the other wrestlers poke

00:19:10.200 fun at it but the crowd just goes insane for him every single time so going back to this original

00:19:17.420 question i remember here in the pacific northwest i do think that there are dudes who like are very

00:19:23.060 meticulous about how they craft their pacific northwest uniform oh yeah it's just they're

00:19:28.560 invisibilizing it yeah i wonder just generally if you if their hallmarks that like if you see people

00:19:34.140 i don't know in the airport like wherever that you're like that person is put together like

00:19:38.920 what are the signs to you one of the first things will be the shoes yes because sneaker culture has

00:19:48.160 just kind of gotten too out of hand you know i mean it could be anything from like if you're

00:19:53.780 wearing a pair of loafers that i'm like oh wow those are really nice italian some italian loaf

00:20:00.900 you could tell just like from the quality or if it's oh i know those made in england new balances

00:20:07.400 I wanted to get those $300 new balances

00:20:10.680 you know it used to be things like certain t-shirts

00:20:14.460 like because I grew up you know in the punk scene

00:20:16.640 and you'd see somebody else in a band t-shirt

00:20:19.080 and be like oh cool we're friends

00:20:20.380 because you're into this band

00:20:21.860 but now it's like the band t-shirt has just become so

00:20:26.480 I know it's like all the kids wearing like Nirvana shirts and stuff

00:20:29.720 yeah the 14 year old crossed the street from me wearing a Dinosaur Jr. shirt

00:20:33.180 and I'm like I want to be that name five Dinosaur Jr. songs

00:20:36.380 but they probably could it probably could yeah because i mean because it's a brooklyn kid they're

00:20:42.400 all way cooler than i am and then i just you know i kind of like notice other things uh watches i'm

00:20:48.560 watches you know watches are the new sneakers um isn't that such an interesting like 80s throwback

00:20:55.000 because for me watching 80s movies they always would talk about the watch as a signifier like

00:21:00.840 that's how like when someone got super rich right or like yeah and that was so outside of my

00:21:05.540 experience like growing up in a small town in idaho and then when i was growing up it's still

00:21:09.820 like i don't really know a lot of people in my world who who are obsessed with watches but i'm

00:21:14.560 seeing it percolate back on like instagram and influencer stuff it's been really kind of

00:21:19.880 interesting for me because i've accumulated a lot of watches and it's again like i you know i like

00:21:26.780 putting on funny bands i mean you can't see it but like i like you know the old preppy nylon

00:21:31.560 bands and they'll do that with like a $20 band on a $2,000 watch that I bought much cheaper

00:21:38.440 because I'm good at that. But I think watches represent something that we're kind of losing.

00:21:45.280 And that's, you know, the realness and that the sort of analog versus digital sort of thing. And

00:21:51.600 if you have a $20,000 watch on your wrist, you're different than the guy who's got the

00:21:58.220 the cool piece of technology right well and like what a metaphor going from like the 300 apple

00:22:04.560 watch to the 25 000 watch with like a nylon band yeah but that is no longer connected to your phone

00:22:13.340 like that to me is indicative of some larger trends that are going on um okay so these next

00:22:18.320 two questions are arriving at a similar idea but from two different perspectives so first we'll

00:22:23.760 hear from Michael, who has noticed a change based on where he shops. I'm an early 30s gay man. Since

00:22:29.240 COVID, I've moved on from younger brands such as Urban Outfitters and Abercrombie to upper middle

00:22:34.000 class brands that explicitly target adult men. In doing so, I've noticed there's no color. Everything

00:22:39.840 is black, white, beige, brown, navy, or sage. And all those colors are muted and washed out.

00:22:46.300 Where are the yellows? The oranges? The reds? This is a cross price point. The same boring

00:22:51.040 neutrals at H&M and ASOS show up all the way to Todd Snyder and Buck Mason? Has color been banished

00:22:56.520 to street style? Has this always been the case for quote-unquote adult men clothes? And I'm just

00:23:01.540 realizing it now that I've aged in. What's wrong with warm colors? P.S. I've also noticed these

00:23:06.820 colors, specifically navy, stem from American English sportswear. Does imitating the color

00:23:12.160 palettes of old white Northern Europeans connotate adult malehood? And then the other version of this 0.55

00:23:18.340 question comes from Allie. Why aren't men allowed to wear color? I do the majority of the clothes

00:23:23.000 shopping for my family. Another question for another time. And my husband really enjoys

00:23:27.480 wearing bright colors, but I can only find actual fun clothing for him at brands that carry unisex

00:23:32.320 styles. Every brand that has a specific men's line seems to only make things in neutrals with

00:23:37.300 maybe one or two accent colors per collection. Is this because American masculinity teaches men to

00:23:43.100 bottle up their feelings and the lack of expression continues in their clothing choices?

00:23:46.520 Or is it more about brands catering to the average taste of a focus group versus more niche and more enthusiastic buyers?

00:23:53.720 See American potato chip flavors versus other countries' chip flavors.

00:23:58.080 Just great culture study questions here.

00:24:00.900 We love our listeners.

00:24:02.400 I would suggest if you want to find color, you just go look at golf clothing.

00:24:07.340 Because I think golf clothing has moved into this incredible place of flamboyance that is really fascinating to me.

00:24:14.100 that is where like my partner and all of his friends get their most flamboyant clothing

00:24:19.460 and it is amazing stuff uh and a lot of it too is is hedging that line between

00:24:25.940 stuff you would wear just in normal life and on the golf course it doesn't look like

00:24:31.100 i don't know pain stewart in 2000 although that was always you know pain stewart was famous for

00:24:36.560 wearing um argyle socks like up to his shin bones and then um knickers but like incredible style

00:24:43.780 as opposed to tiger woods with like his red polo that went down past his elbow which was

00:24:51.960 pinnacle of style back then so yeah what do you think about this color like do you have a grand

00:24:57.280 theory of this besides men's capsule of wardrobes where they want everything to match with everything

00:25:02.600 else well i will say one of the most stylish men who personally i like of all the like the um the

00:25:10.060 style guy icons of the day yeah like i'm usually like whatever i feel like they're they're dressed

00:25:16.100 by a publicist probably they're not really feeling it but like tyler the creator is i love his style

00:25:22.300 like he's taken that sort of like preppy meets wes anderson meets streetwear and meshed it all

00:25:31.080 together and it looks great and his whole thing is like using golf and golf wang and all that kind

00:25:37.500 of stuff in his design so it's like and he his stuff pops so much um he's not afraid of being

00:25:43.940 flyboy and at all and i love that but to also answer i think it was it was michael's question

00:25:49.120 i mean the old english stuff i always felt like it you know their sports i think what their their

00:25:55.280 their athletes actually did i think help introduce a lot of color you know through rugby's and i wear

00:26:00.440 a lot of rugby shirts because that's how i can in the middle of like the fall or winter that's how

00:26:06.540 I can get some color going because, you know,

00:26:09.200 if I got a pink and green rugby, it's like, okay,

00:26:12.000 I feel a little bit better today on this miserable gray day.

00:26:16.480 But to answer the other question,

00:26:17.800 I do feel like it has a lot to do with it.

00:26:19.280 It's masculinity.

00:26:20.040 It is all about this like fear because when you wear colors,

00:26:27.060 you're drawing attention to yourself.

00:26:28.920 Yes.

00:26:29.860 I was just going to say.

00:26:31.220 Yeah.

00:26:31.620 And I think a lot of guys are afraid of that.

00:26:35.320 they're not comfortable with that. Or at least they don't want their fashion to be the thing

00:26:38.880 that's calling attention to them, right? Like they don't want that to be part of their image,

00:26:43.200 whether it's in the workplace or whatever, because that feels emasculating if you are

00:26:47.960 known as like the fashion guy. Yeah. There's all these like sayings that people like to throw

00:26:53.700 around. But I mean, the one about wear your clothes, don't let them wear you. I always go

00:26:58.320 back to the I think you should leave sketch, the Dan Flashes sketch. You know, it's like that really

00:27:04.060 just the loudest shirt possible it's so funny to me because this guy is just obsessed with this

00:27:11.220 like horribly loud pattern and how much it cost and this it's such a it's like but it doesn't

00:27:17.320 look good on you that's the whole point of the sketch right right yeah it's not about like

00:27:20.640 is the shirt cool it's like does it look cool on you yeah right we've kind of gone back and forth

00:27:26.700 with like brands and logos being in and out and right now it's like people say they're out but

00:27:32.240 the designer the expensive designer stuff even if it doesn't have a logo on it is supposed to

00:27:38.640 signify like oh you're you're rich and you understand like this is like what's cool and

00:27:44.360 what's but it's not it it's it's if you're not wearing it right it's just pointless to me yeah

00:27:50.080 yeah and i see so much you know you go up the upper west side or the upper east side in new

00:27:54.240 york you see so much of that trying to like like what is it what do they call it like invisible

00:27:59.080 luxury um quiet luxury quiet luxury yeah the clothing basically on succession that announces

00:28:07.040 itself through its casual fit like oh i'm just wearing this ten thousand dollar baseball cap

00:28:14.120 essentially which looks like a twenty dollar baseball cap yes you know i wear a lot i wear

00:28:19.600 tons of vintage and i was gonna say to both people but especially michael you know for colorful stuff

00:28:24.240 i have to go on like grailed or ebay or wherever and i have to find older colorful stuff yeah you

00:28:30.940 know because this year's this this season's collection for whatever brand might not have

00:28:35.320 something i want yeah or what i'm feeling and i'm all about feeling so i don't know how ever i think

00:28:41.580 everyone should have their own philosophies for dressing but i'm very about feeling and so it's

00:28:46.400 like when i'm feeling certain colors like right now i'm in a lot of khaki and i'm when an army

00:28:51.180 green t-shirt from barney green grass but uh that's just because like i was out playing with

00:28:56.380 my daughter but i'm absolutely feeling this i'm like this is i love looking like this and

00:29:00.560 i was like oh i'm channeling this photo of a younger martha stewart i once saw where she's

00:29:07.540 absolutely i mean she's gorgeous but i'm like martha looks great i want to dress like that

00:29:11.780 you know i love playing with that kind of stuff and you know it's just having fun with it is so

00:29:17.300 important but um you know i think finding colors can be really tough and it's because there's just

00:29:24.180 not a market for every single one of them yeah that's well and that's the thing is it kind of

00:29:28.680 like filters with especially with these larger brands like if most men are only buying earth

00:29:34.260 tones then they're going to continue to largely manufacture earth tones the other thing that i'll

00:29:40.100 say happens at least here in the pacific northwest i have this vivid memory of this guy who our

00:29:45.800 freshman year showed up and he like almost everyone was from the west in my school or the

00:29:49.980 midwest but there were a couple people from new england and this guy's from connecticut

00:29:54.120 and one time like it's spring and he brings out what we call them the whale pants and what they

00:30:00.900 were is just a classic j crew pants with like whales embroidered in them that you would wear

00:30:06.000 in on nantucket and we're like cool whale pants like you know just razzed forever and that is a

00:30:13.960 way that like i think not just men but also women who participate in these groups like

00:30:18.780 enforce these norms of like that's something that wafts wear yeah like that's something that

00:30:25.120 new englers wear like you're a weirdo if you wear that you know it's funny because my childhood

00:30:30.080 is pretty much i grew up around so many different kinds of people but like the men in my family were

00:30:36.880 all jewish guys and i think jewish guys from like a certain from like those from like past

00:30:42.780 generations because i think a lot of them especially my family had connections to the

00:30:46.520 garment industry yeah you know they did they they got better fabrics they knew tailors they

00:30:51.440 so my grandfather could dress you know incredibly my dad dressed really well like my dad was

00:30:56.740 early ralph lauren guy like 70s just i would kill to raid that closet um and ralph you know

00:31:05.720 is always going to be my like my center like i will always everything i wear has to have some

00:31:12.360 connection back to ralph lauren in one way or reminds me of him somehow but the thing about

00:31:18.300 a certain generation that like our fathers and grandfathers generation of jewish guys is they uh

00:31:25.360 there were some of them that had like a real wasp fixation like my grandfather was like six three 0.96

00:31:31.480 also body like mine just big dude and he would wear like he was like the first guy i ever saw

00:31:38.140 who would wear pink polo shirts and nobody would mess with my grandfather nobody would even consider

00:31:42.760 it and those are always the guys you see wearing pink polo shirts totally the last dudes you want

00:31:47.540 to mess with um totally and you know then and then when i was a kid i i moved to the suburbs

00:31:52.860 and i moved to like one of the waspiest suburbs in the midwest where i was the only jewish kid 0.90

00:31:58.900 and i was fascinated with how the waspy the truly waspy people not not like the people who were like

00:32:06.760 quote-unquote wasps but they're catholic like the the mayflower material kinds of people yes and

00:32:12.700 like their clothes aren't new necessarily no not at all they were darn no my god i would see like 0.96

00:32:18.660 dads who were like ceos with like the oxfords stitched up the r and i was like damn that's 0.90

00:32:24.620 cool and it was but then they had those pants and they were they call them the go to hell pants 0.74

00:32:30.100 that's like the term for them and i would be like the go to hell pants because you'd wear them

00:32:35.880 and it was like sort of like this like waspy joke like i'm really taking the piss out of

00:32:41.760 everybody by wearing these pants and i would be like that's so cool um but actually so i always

00:32:48.940 say like look to the waspy and preppy stuff because for colors you know because i love

00:32:54.580 nantucket red like that's a literal thing and whenever i go out to like massachusetts or

00:33:00.800 rhode island i'm always looking for clothing out there because those brands they keep the they keep

00:33:06.160 the styles you know j press j press like they still have all the shaggy dogs and those like

00:33:10.780 weird colors um i i they're also in outdoor gear now like 80s fluorescents are so in like patagonia

00:33:19.920 like all the windbreakers are the windbreakers that we had when we were eight um yeah so there's

00:33:25.160 a lot of places where you can find that as you know as we started with our answer to this question

00:33:29.940 in sportswear active wear kind of hybrid it's just not yeah and mixing all that stuff to me

00:33:35.980 is so much fun because i mean like i'd mentioned i grew up in the punk scene where it was just like

00:33:40.100 you had more of a uniform style like you had to wear you had to dress this certain way and i got

00:33:45.600 really into that mindset i'm like oh i can't break the rules and then once i realized i'm like no 0.90

00:33:49.760 you have to that's what that's the stupidest thing i've ever heard this is supposed to be punk you're 0.74

00:33:53.780 supposed to the whole point is breaking rules why am i dressing like this other guy in cargo pants 0.99

00:33:59.140 and a thrift store t-shirt and vans like why am i doing that um you know and you you figure stuff

00:34:08.660 out for yourself today's episode is brought to you by wild alaskan company i knew that we were

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00:38:48.240 So our next question is from Nat, and it's about evolving one's style.

00:38:51.780 How should a man avoid the stylistic trap of finding a look that works, then dressing exactly the same for decades, until suddenly you're an old man dressing the way you did when you were in your 20s? 0.78

00:39:04.340 I assume this is how elderly men wind up dressing in the typical uniform of khaki shorts and high white socks. 0.94

00:39:10.560 It was the normal dress of their youth, and they just stuck with it. 0.91

00:39:13.880 But what about the flip side? 0.89

00:39:14.980 The answer can't just be dressing like a young person, because an old person trying 0.99

00:39:19.440 to look young is equally ridiculous, and Gen Z's style is awful. 1.00

00:39:23.960 For reference, I'm 41, and I feel like I have been wearing essentially the same thing 1.00

00:39:28.060 for a decade.

00:39:29.500 Raw denim jeans, I recently switched away from skinny into a slightly looser slim taper

00:39:34.380 in deference to the great jeans retrenchment of 2024 to 2025, and a solid color flannel

00:39:40.260 or twill shirt.

00:39:41.580 I have no idea what direction to go in from here.

00:39:44.940 All right.

00:39:45.560 I would love to hear your thoughts on this,

00:39:47.280 especially as someone who has a lot of dedication

00:39:49.460 and admiration for classic styles.

00:39:51.160 So do you share this fear?

00:39:52.480 Is this something you think about over?

00:39:54.240 I also have a lot of admiration for older men

00:39:56.640 and the way they dress.

00:39:57.980 So yeah, my wife actually,

00:40:00.960 she knows my one of my group chats

00:40:02.880 is me and my, a couple of my buddies.

00:40:05.200 And she's like, she knows when I'm taking a photo

00:40:08.460 of a guy walking down the street with like a Zabar's bag.

00:40:11.580 and the knee-high socks and she's like you and your friends i know one of you have texted

00:40:17.860 omg i saw this dentist on the upper west side this fit goes so hard you know like

00:40:24.000 like you guys would have a coronary it's like seeing a 95 year old guy drooling if he was

00:40:30.500 dressed well you're like like yeah it's not wrong but you know i think the thing is again it always

00:40:37.560 goes back to like how you wear it you can wear the same thing forever i mean look at fran lebowitz

00:40:43.460 all-time great like she just wears the same damn thing and it's unimpeachable

00:40:50.820 diane keaton is like you know i think women kind of get it more than men but you know actually for

00:40:58.060 a man for a good evolution you know you look at i i love like andy warhol and i don't it's funny

00:41:03.880 because i don't look anything like andy warhol i don't but i love that evolution from like the

00:41:08.100 60s and all black and um the turtle like the turtlenecks under the leather jackets

00:41:13.780 to sort of this like kind of almost like a proto what like fran lebowitz does now where you'd wear

00:41:19.680 the um the boot cut wranglers with the cowboy boots and the and the and the blazers which is

00:41:26.760 like sort of my go-to look when i'm doing when i have to wear a jacket at this point um you know

00:41:31.920 So it's like, you just find things that help you evolve, you know, but you don't, you don't

00:41:36.500 have, if you look good in something, just keep going with it, you know, just figure

00:41:41.540 out how to like build on it. 0.97

00:41:44.580 That's what I tell women about like the, who are obsessed with what jeans do I wear now?

00:41:49.420 Like, I don't want to like, are these, are my skinny jeans, the new mom jeans or whatever?

00:41:53.240 Like, like find jeans that make you look awesome.

00:41:56.960 Yeah.

00:41:57.580 And it doesn't matter what kind of jeans that they are.

00:41:59.820 play around with other jeans that don't like try on other pairs of jeans because here's the thing

00:42:05.320 that i'm remembering about like barrel leg is that like i love those when i was in 10th grade

00:42:09.980 like they're cool yeah like you just have to remember there are other kinds of jeans that

00:42:14.360 look sick not just the ones that you love forever but you have to be kind of playful in how you like

00:42:19.860 try them on and you also have to try them on yeah i mean there are men who i'll see in what we would

00:42:27.120 still call skinny jeans yeah and i don't i hate i hate that like that like skin tight like what

00:42:33.160 did you do during that era what did you wear i think my jeans were tighter for sure um but like

00:42:39.860 again i think because i the way i grew up you know it's funny we had baggy we would buy baggy

00:42:46.440 khakis from thrift stores to skate in and then our pants were usually tighter i was like no i just

00:42:52.820 want to wear 501s like I'm this is more comfortable like why there's again what you said like

00:42:57.760 classics that that's there's a reason they're the classics and I looked ridiculous my the way my

00:43:04.580 body is built where I'm like you know I have actually pretty like muscular legs and then I'm 0.96

00:43:08.920 like beefier on top it just looks so stupid and um you know it just emphasizes what I've mentioned 0.97

00:43:17.820 this on the podcast before my partner he refers to his thighs as his meaty clackers they're like 0.98

00:43:22.800 big like like paul mescal thighs you know and you're trying to put those in his skinny pants

00:43:27.620 it's like what's going on here like if you don't like how that looks and it doesn't feel fun to

00:43:32.500 you or it doesn't feel right then like it's not gonna look right yeah i mean i've got a body for

00:43:37.940 pushing a cart up a hill in romania is like how i like to that's why you gotta wear shorts like

00:43:44.380 there are men out there who don't wear shorts and i'm like i love shorts shorts are awesome

00:43:49.080 oh my god and you know i think but then again there are men who do wear shorts and they look

00:43:54.080 terrible like they look like they just literally bought like the last pair of cargo shorts ever

00:43:59.880 made at costco right and you know it's funny because i i've always loved jorts and my wife

00:44:06.260 a few years ago my wife was like you're too old to be wearing jorts no but no wait then we had 0.70

00:44:13.340 the baby and she's like you could wear jorts i'm like why she's like it's just like slutty dad

00:44:18.700 thing it's like really hot and i'm like okay so now i've got like like six pairs of shorts

00:44:25.060 and i'm like walking around doing my little you know my my chores around the house on sunday 0.78

00:44:31.200 blasting paul simon and steve winwood and just feeling like i found my calling slutty dad

00:44:38.600 i was just gonna reassure nat that like i think his style sounds sick yeah something i don't know

00:44:46.260 sometimes stuff like naturally enters into the repertoire and then suddenly

00:44:49.940 you're wearing that all the time.

00:44:51.340 It just like,

00:44:52.440 I feel if you make it organic,

00:44:54.360 then it feels right.

00:44:55.340 If that makes sense.

00:44:56.500 Yeah.

00:44:56.740 And,

00:44:56.940 and that said,

00:44:57.660 they've changed it up the pants, 0.99

00:44:59.300 the, 0.99

00:44:59.460 the,

00:44:59.620 the kind of pants.

00:45:00.440 So it's like,

00:45:00.740 you're,

00:45:01.220 you're evolving,

00:45:02.320 you know,

00:45:02.600 it's like,

00:45:02.860 you've realized that's the,

00:45:04.440 that's the big thing.

00:45:05.260 It's just like,

00:45:06.260 keep tinkering with it.

00:45:08.440 But if it looks good,

00:45:09.900 just keep going.

00:45:11.200 Yeah. 0.98

00:45:11.800 And then white socks up to the knees.

00:45:14.280 I don't know.

00:45:14.740 I think it looks great.

00:45:15.680 I mean, that's going to be me in a few more years when I'm ready to retire to Miami Beach.

00:45:21.600 That's the iconic look.

00:45:24.800 This next one is about a specific element of men's style, and it comes from Katie.

00:45:29.820 Why are all these middle-aged dads wearing these unstructured baseball hats with a flat brim?

00:45:34.600 Not just a canvas dad hat, but more like the nylon version that has the rope where the bill meets the dome?

00:45:40.100 And why do they look good in them for the most part?

00:45:42.320 my husband won a hat like this at our daughter's school raffle and he looks great in it whereas i

00:45:47.180 can't wear anything that hip without looking like i'm trying too hard and all the other dads are

00:45:51.900 doing it too wait so as a person who has like an outrageous collection of hats i could say hats are

00:46:00.020 great i love hats um so i'm biased but this also kind of uh plays into my the thing i said about

00:46:07.340 my wife with the slutty dad jorts yeah like i just feel like to me if a guy is a dad and you

00:46:15.440 think he's doing something right style wise that's a good dad he's feeling his life he's like yeah 0.95

00:46:21.760 i'm a dad and this is great and i'm comfortable with my life and i don't feel like i have to go

00:46:28.140 prove anything i'm gonna wear this i'm gonna look good you know whereas like some dads are like

00:46:33.140 i miss my i miss my 20s yeah i miss being free there's a look isn't there there really is whereas

00:46:40.160 there's like that i'm feeling my dadness look that's that's different yeah i mean it's crazy

00:46:45.860 like i see some of these guys that i hang out with and i'm like damn we're cool this is like

00:46:51.720 the least cool we're like literally the lowest rung of cool in the entire city where does the

00:46:58.640 mandal go in here like the man's handle like where does it reside in that line i feel like that's

00:47:04.060 feeling your dadness yeah i think you know i thought tevas were coming back a few years ago

00:47:09.020 yeah and i was like oh this is cool i like this and i'm like wait what the hell what no

00:47:14.540 and birkenstocks you know i've always got at least two pairs of birkenstocks waiting for me outside

00:47:20.820 the door what about crocs i i appreciate crocs um just not for me um they're very dangerous

00:47:28.500 they're like the thing that doctors say like the five things i'll never have in my home like it's

00:47:33.120 always one of them is crocs really yeah because people hurt themselves really badly wearing crocs

00:47:38.420 that's crazy what do you mean how are they hurting themselves because they twist their ankles or

00:47:47.400 they fall they slip on them like and i send this article all the time because charlie has hideous

00:47:52.980 crocs and like some of our other friends also have hideous crocs and so i'll be like this is a safety

00:47:57.780 hazard but then they're like no crocs are sick um i also think that like uh the birkenstocks that

00:48:04.100 are the more like mule style the mules yeah yeah those are that to me is is feeling your dadness

00:48:10.920 oh yeah and i mean like and then like i've got like the the king kennedy mules like the design

00:48:16.760 like the nice ones that are all embroidered and like i'll wear those and like that's something

00:48:21.420 people will clock and it's usually dads but fashionable moms or fashionable women will go

00:48:29.580 king candy i'm like yep yeah like the person who asked this question who's like why why does this

00:48:34.760 look good on all these other dads right like you're noticing this part of like yeah i just i

00:48:40.940 think like to me i've always a pre i've always and this is a weird thing about me but i've always

00:48:45.460 gotten along better with women i've always wanted to surround myself with women and be i've just

00:48:49.900 that's just i'm more comfortable around women but i've always liked older dudes like old like

00:48:55.720 65 to 80 90 whatever and i've i've had a lot of friends that age i've befriended older guys

00:49:02.560 and i realized a long time ago it's just they're just comfortable with who they are

00:49:06.740 yeah and men are generally super uncomfortable with who they are uh i mean i was you know when

00:49:16.460 i was i'm a very emotional person and i'm a very like you know i'm a very happy person i'm a very

00:49:22.500 outgoing person and those were things i was taught were bad for me to be and i was like

00:49:28.560 you know my whole life like don't be emotional don't be you know but uh when you meet older

00:49:33.880 guys and you talk to them and they kind of reflect it's reflective in their style like they just

00:49:38.300 dress how they want to dress and sometimes it's schlubby and even the schlubbiness is kind of

00:49:42.860 cool sometimes um and the i think the dad the a specific kind of dad the one who's like really

00:49:50.740 happy with their place in life they're there they're getting to that point where they're just

00:49:55.100 like i'm here it like manifests outward into their wardrobe choices you can feel it it's like an aura

00:50:01.480 of satisfaction well it starts down from the new balances because it's like you usually could tell

00:50:06.540 you see them wearing the new balances you're like yep dad yes uh this is a great setup for

00:50:13.460 our last question which we're actually going to make into the ask and anything question

00:50:17.100 it's about who actually does the shopping for the clothes that men wear we got so many versions of

00:50:24.260 this question so there is a ton to talk about here and if you're not a paid subscriber and you want

00:50:29.600 to hear why so many grown men are waiting for their mothers to put underwear in their Christmas

00:50:33.800 stockings, head over to culturestudypod.substack.com and sign up. If people want to find you on the

00:50:40.880 internet and see more of your incredible carousels of historical style, where can they find you?

00:50:48.420 On Instagram, I'm I am. I should have done I am, but it's I'm Jason Diamond. I think that's

00:50:55.840 where I'm at everywhere pretty much. But my sub stack is called the melt. And yeah, I worry about

00:51:03.440 style sometimes when I'm feeling it. And you always put links in your Instagram, which I

00:51:07.840 appreciate. That's how I find a lot of stuff. Right. So yeah, thanks. Yeah. No, it's, it's weird.

00:51:12.320 I think that's like the arts era blogger in me, you know, totally never dies. You can't cut that

00:51:18.680 limb off. Well, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a total pleasure. Oh, thank you for

00:51:23.520 having me. Thank you so much for listening to the culture study podcast. Be sure to subscribe

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Culture Study Podcast - June 25, 2025

Why Are Men's Clothes All Earth Tones

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