Culture Study Podcast - Will MomTok Even Survive This？!？!

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00:01:31.800 Okay, today we're talking about the Hulu show Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.

00:01:36.960 And to start, we're going to describe a moment that made you raise your eyebrows, drop your jaw.

00:01:44.820 I was watching this show with my partner, Charlie, and I would say moments when he's

00:01:49.340 like, what the fuck?

00:01:52.120 But you go first.

00:01:53.460 You go first.

00:01:54.140 That is such a good question because one of my central gripes with the show is that I

00:01:59.000 didn't have enough of those moments.

00:02:01.180 Yes.

00:02:02.000 But I guess one that was just like, ooh, they skirted over that really quickly and that

00:02:07.360 felt bigger was, I think it's Michaela.

00:02:10.760 She had her first kid at 16, and that's really skimmed over really quickly.

00:02:17.540 And that, to me, was like a big, like, let's slow down and pause on that for a hot second.

00:02:22.380 Also, Demi's husband is 18 years older.

00:02:27.080 Oh, that's right.

00:02:29.100 And this isn't clear in the show, but he used to be married to a real housewife of Salt Lake.

00:02:37.280 Oh.

00:02:37.800 Oh, I'm actually surprised they didn't capitalize on the drama factor of that.

00:02:43.500 I know, right?

00:02:45.480 Also, Demi's husband was on Claire Crowley's season of The Bachelorette, but he dropped out.

00:02:53.140 So he's just, he loves his reality TV.

00:02:55.120 Oh, but Melody, Melody, do you know who submitted him for that season?

00:02:58.740 No.

00:02:59.460 Demi and her then husband.

00:03:02.120 Whoa.

00:03:03.680 Oh, my God.

00:03:05.200 Oh, my God.

00:03:06.540 i know they like ran into each other at the gym so sorry i just was again reading an us weekly

00:03:11.860 like summary of this they ran into them at the gym the demi and her then husband and like demi

00:03:18.600 had been starstruck by him because like he was a byu football player when demi was like nine

00:03:25.360 um and they were family friends so they ran into each other at the gym and we're

00:03:31.160 and then we're like talking about they wanted to get demi's daughter into modeling and somehow

00:03:39.120 there was like a connect there and uh the husband had recently become divorced and uh or separated

00:03:47.920 and they were like okay we're they secretly were like we're gonna submit him to the bachelor wow

00:03:53.960 uh-huh wow well and that's why like i think actually part of the fascination with this

00:04:01.680 show stems from how many layers there are if you start googling off the show and that's not that's

00:04:08.920 not unique right to reality tv to the show by any means but like there's this there's the narrative

00:04:15.200 and then there's the the sub narrative that grabs people and like heightens the melodrama

00:04:20.200 and contributes to the feeling that, like, oh, I'm going to text my friend

00:04:23.820 and tell them about this, like, piece of information

00:04:26.420 that changes your understanding of what you saw on the screen.

00:04:35.560 This is the Culture Study Podcast, and I'm Anne Helen Peterson.

00:04:39.720 I'm Sarah Peterson.

00:04:40.900 I wrote the book Momfluenced inside the maddening, picture-perfect world

00:04:45.280 of mommy influencer culture, and I also write a substack called

00:04:48.620 In Pursuit of Clean Countertops, which is an interrogation of the ideal mother.

00:04:53.580 I should also note, we both spell our name Peterson with an S-E-N.

00:04:57.640 It's true.

00:04:57.960 And people often wonder if we're related.

00:05:00.180 We are just both skin and avian.

00:05:02.140 And we both struggle with stringy hair from time to time.

00:05:06.440 Just, like, so thin.

00:05:08.520 Oh, my God.

00:05:10.340 Just, like, for me personally, just, like, always aspiring to the blonde of my childhood.

00:05:15.940 Always.

00:05:17.640 It's bad.

00:05:18.620 we will get into the hair of it all when we talk about this show so

00:05:25.360 we've been wanting to have you come on the show to talk about mom fluencers and like there is

00:05:31.880 sometimes a fatigue amongst our listeners not all but some about just the conversation of

00:05:37.960 trad wives and some people are just like so bored with ballerina farm yeah even though

00:05:43.100 she's not bored with um but i wonder if just to get us started until we get into like the show

00:05:51.680 if you could describe how secret lives of mormon wives intersects with this world of momfluencers

00:05:59.020 because it is it's like i mean they call themselves mom talk right there i mean in

00:06:03.720 terms of the mormon momfluencers i typically do cultural deep dives on they're in a sort of

00:06:09.920 different category. They're big on TikTok, A. I tend to focus on, you know, the visual curation

00:06:17.260 that happens on Instagram. They're not trad wives in that they're not following a trad wife

00:06:23.420 aesthetic. They're not wearing gingham. They're not on big farms. They're not rocking their just

00:06:29.540 milked warm milk raw milk um and they read much more like you know Kardashian aestheticized style

00:06:41.160 influencers than they do Mormon mommy bloggers yeah so I would say that's a huge distinction

00:06:47.180 right there they also grew to fame from you know traditional like TikTok dances rather than mommy

00:06:54.700 blogs or rather than really, you know, narrativizing their family story as this ideal

00:07:02.320 nuclear family mythology in a way that, you know, Hannah Neelman certainly did.

00:07:08.020 Yes.

00:07:08.460 So, yeah, I think there are a lot of distinctions to be made there in terms of the mom talkers

00:07:13.560 versus the classic trad wife, you know, Mormon mommy bloggers.

00:07:17.740 Well, and I'm even thinking about the distinction versus like coming to fame on TikTok versus

00:07:22.420 coming to fame on Instagram.

00:07:24.700 in terms of like, so much more investment in an actual active, like a video, right? And

00:07:32.080 yesterday, Charlie was like, No, really? Did they just dance? Like, that was the thing?

00:07:38.200 Well, a lot of people on TikTok become famous just by dancing. So that's not unique. But I

00:07:44.460 think what distinguished them is people are like, Oh, my gosh, these Mormon moms are hot,

00:07:49.820 right yeah like there was this like exoticism going on which we'll talk about more um and also

00:07:56.680 they're young yeah and a lot like and so like it makes sense that they were doing this on tiktok

00:08:02.160 if they were people who were invested in social media like you're not on instagram making like

00:08:06.980 static posts right right for sure like yeah they're in their 20s they're young there's a reason why

00:08:14.620 and all of the shots on the show they tell us how old everyone is they also when they were you know

00:08:21.440 growing mom talk into this you know social media juggernaut they very explicitly played with their

00:08:29.940 mormonism as a way to you know gain relevance and gain eyeballs um like they were very tongue

00:08:37.680 in cheek about it and i think that was like a real strategy we should rewind just slightly

00:08:42.820 i can hear melody's voice in my ears saying what is the show actually about so do you want to start

00:08:49.440 that or and then i can add to it sure um yeah i mean if you've seen any of the real housewife

00:08:56.940 franchises i would say this is that plus a little more mormonism um it's got all the trappings of a

00:09:05.700 traditional reality tv show it's got you know the montages to make sure we know exactly where they

00:09:11.180 are, which is lots and lots and lots of, you know, screenshots of the Mormon temple of photos of

00:09:17.260 Jesus Christ. But yeah, it's really just a classic, you know, talking to the camera interview style

00:09:24.780 reality TV show following these housewives, some of which are not, none of them are really housewives.

00:09:32.020 Most of them are the breadwinners in their family. And they're all moms, not all of them are married.

00:09:38.860 so yeah but it's really just real housewives with a higher mormon flair i would say yeah and

00:09:46.320 the way that the show starts like the narrative tension to start the show is that one of these

00:09:51.600 moms who was involved in what they call right mom talk i really dropped the lead didn't i

00:09:56.620 one of these moms a few years ago went on tiktok and revealed that everyone in this mom talk group

00:10:05.780 which is this is not even true but like reveal she said that like some of us essentially were

00:10:11.460 swinging and by swinging we later learned that the understanding is that they were making out with

00:10:17.520 other husbands with their husband's knowledge like at a party like they were having like a party and

00:10:24.140 like made out with other husbands and there might have been some oral sex involved it's

00:10:27.800 never super spelled out like some of them speculate a little bit about it because most of the women

00:10:33.740 on this show were not involved in that scandal right um the and the the narrative tension is

00:10:41.180 like the woman who did that taylor frankie paul taylor frankie paul trying to figure out what

00:10:48.760 her place is again in this group in mormonism in her family she's she's an incredible protagonist

00:10:58.700 i would say um very complicated and then the rest of the show like if they're like at one point the

00:11:07.260 episode that i recently watched it was like oh we're like we're divided between the saints and

00:11:11.440 the sinners i can't like the good girls and the ones who like the boundaries a little bit more

00:11:18.480 yeah um and yeah i guess like the what the driving narrative tension is like

00:11:26.860 what's the future they keep asking like and there's a lot of jokes what is this the end of

00:11:32.860 mom talk exactly and everyone's like we don't care like those narrative stakes are so i'm like

00:11:38.460 i don't care about any of that yeah i care about whether jen and her husband break up that's much

00:11:43.800 more interesting to me well and i think it's telling that when you asked for my description

00:11:48.920 none of that came to my mind because the stakes do feel so orchestrated yeah and they do feel

00:11:58.380 so low whereas yes when it comes to jen and zach like the stakes are really high and like

00:12:04.020 that was really i mean i got invested in multiple storylines but that one was the one that was like

00:12:10.380 yeah this is where we can actually dig into the gender of it all and in mormon marriages that i

00:12:17.340 think so many of us are really interested in were you aware of like the drama like the swinging

00:12:22.780 drama when that happened yes but i didn't you know i didn't write about it um again because

00:12:29.180 they're not they're like not my flavor of mormon momfluencers that i typically cover yeah i was

00:12:35.080 aware when it happened i like lightly followed it but yeah i didn't write about it at the time

00:12:40.180 yeah and the other thing we should say for people who haven't watched this show is that like

00:12:44.340 aesthetically you know you likened it to the Kardashians or a housewives franchise I think

00:12:50.280 that is part of the titillation value as well as like all of these women are groomed in a way that

00:12:55.800 we would expect groomed and also like they get plastic surgery and Botox and other like the way

00:13:02.740 that they do their hair the way that they dress like it looks like they could be Kardashians

00:13:07.960 totally i think that to me was somewhat surprising that like so much especially if you've watched

00:13:13.180 other mormon shows like there are a lot of shows that focus on mormons because

00:13:17.100 american audiences are compelled and bewildered by mormons in many cases and we'll get into all

00:13:25.200 of that but like it just it's a different face to it that i think yes you might expect yes and

00:13:33.960 you know the women themselves say that sort of repeatedly like we are creating this new narrative

00:13:39.560 for mormon women we're breaking out of this you know which we'll get into um we're breaking out

00:13:46.360 of this box that the public has been trained to see mormons i think that also the the aesthetic

00:13:53.060 i guess surprise of the show i think has also led many to sort of say like how mormon are they

00:14:00.180 really and like right how representative are these women of you know typical mormon housewives etc

00:14:07.020 etc yeah we got nearly 100 questions and i would say that half of them were how mormon are these

00:14:13.380 women right yeah which okay we'll table that for now because i think we're going to address it in

00:14:19.400 the questions so of these questions that we received we're going to lump them into three

00:14:23.340 categories logistics of the show the way mormonism is represented in the show and the way

00:14:29.720 feminism i'm putting it in quotes is represented in the show so first we're going to hear a

00:14:35.920 question from krista that will help us continue to lay out the stakes and the plot points how did

00:14:41.140 these women end up together how did they meet what do they have in common and then my other question

00:14:47.460 is how do they have so much money i know they make money by being influencers but they had to have

00:14:54.540 had nice houses and nice stuff before they became influencers. So where did that come from?

00:15:01.060 Okay, what do you think here? Because I don't know exactly how they met, but I would love to.

00:15:05.640 They make quite a few references in the show to, you know, when we met through our work.

00:15:14.120 So I don't think most of these relationships were organic. I think most of them came about

00:15:21.020 through social media. So that, I guess, is, you know, one answer to that question. I think

00:15:26.060 some of them might have had more organic relationships prior to social media

00:15:30.460 stardom. But I think primarily, they realized it would be advantageous to all of them to group

00:15:37.500 together and sort of join forces. Yeah, they what at one point in the first episode, they say,

00:15:42.900 like, basically, we have a content creation house, but we all live in our own houses.

00:15:48.020 right right and so that to me speaks to the fact that they like think of this as like we get

00:15:54.460 together once a week a couple times a week and maybe have our kids play together too

00:16:00.320 and then we like get ready for camera and do dances together yeah totally i also have a whole

00:16:08.840 rabbit hole that i want to go down at some point um have you heard of alissa grenfell no so i

00:16:16.660 discovered her through jamie loftus's podcast um 16th minute of fame i don't know if you're

00:16:22.900 familiar with that it's really good she goes she basically does deep dives on like the internet's

00:16:28.920 the main character of the day like bean dad for example like the dress do you remember the dress

00:16:34.260 yes yeah yeah um but so she did a two-part series on trying to answer like why are so many

00:16:40.580 influencers mormon and alissa grenfell is an ex-mormon um she's got quite a following on

00:16:45.880 YouTube. She's got this hour-long video where she pretty much lays out this theory. She analyzes,

00:16:54.160 I'm going to go really slow because this is like math and my brain. It took a long time for me to

00:16:59.400 try to put this together because my brain just doesn't work with the numbers. Essentially,

00:17:04.660 advertisers will put money into certain key terms. It's like pay per click. Through these keywords,

00:17:14.320 you can sort of tell, like, which keywords are most beneficial for advertisers.

00:17:20.140 So she does this analysis.

00:17:22.160 She compares the word Mormon to Catholic, for example.

00:17:26.140 And advertisers are paying, like, circa $25 for the keyword Mormon.

00:17:32.920 And they're paying, like, around $3 for the keyword Catholic.

00:17:37.140 She also goes through and analyzes Utah influencer, LA influencer, New York influencer,

00:17:43.020 and Texas influencer. These are all areas where influencers abound. And the Utah influencer

00:17:50.680 keyword was around, I think, $20. And the other three were around $3. So generally,

00:17:59.800 her theory is that, you know, even companies like Anthropologie, who are promoting like

00:18:06.200 boho floral dresses, they can see that a huge sector of their target demographic is likely

00:18:14.580 following Mormon mommy bloggers, which will raise the price for these keywords.

00:18:20.200 So, and again, like she has no way of proving who's putting this money in, but she theorizes

00:18:25.720 that the Mormon church itself is also dumping money into these keywords simply because they

00:18:31.460 want to get as many members as they can and they're really big on uh pros i can never pronounce

00:18:38.480 this word either can i because we're skinning proselytizing yes they're they're famously big

00:18:44.680 on that um so that is her theory i just learned about this within like the last two days but i

00:18:49.780 find it fascinating and i just think the cultural fascination slash um sort of darker interest in

00:18:59.720 Mormonism is also playing a part that it's not going to you know if we're looking at a trad

00:19:05.400 influencer who just lives in like New Hampshire and looks like a Mormon mommy blogger but isn't

00:19:12.360 occasionally dropping like LDS dog whistles we're not going to be digging for like a deeper

00:19:18.900 understory I don't think in the same way that we do with Mormon influencers the other thing okay

00:19:24.300 just to like put some of our cards on the table like I'm not Mormon I grew up Christian but I

00:19:28.400 also grew up in Idaho, which has the most per capita Mormons in the United States, more than

00:19:33.360 Utah. And the way that you know how many Mormons you were friends with was how many Book of Mormons

00:19:40.000 you had inscribed to you as a non-Mormon person, because it's a part of the way that they try to

00:19:46.360 introduce you to the church. My best friend when I was 15, 16, 17. So I know a lot about Mormonism,

00:19:55.780 And I also like because of that proximity was always really interested in understanding it and also like found it fascinating when I went away from Idaho in the Pacific Northwest and met so many people who didn't know any Mormons and didn't know anything about it and really exoticized it.

00:20:13.260 right when where I grew up it was just the like what a lot of people were a part of um right so

00:20:20.400 the the intersection because a lot of times I think there's this fundamental question of like

00:20:24.960 oh well if women aren't supposed to work outside the home then why are they like making money as

00:20:30.780 trad wives and like positive representations of life as a Mormon are absolutely in the church's

00:20:37.520 best interest you know there was when in high school like there was tacit encouragement for

00:20:43.600 all of my Mormon friends to be on basketball teams be on volleyball teams run for ASB like

00:20:49.300 be a leader in the community and doing this work online so long as you are in line with

00:20:55.840 the tenants of the LDS church and we'll get in in a second to the difference between Mormonism

00:21:01.940 as culture and actually being a member of the lds church um like that's great like be this beacon of

00:21:09.520 light you know right um so i think that like that's a long-winded answer how these women are

00:21:17.760 why they are online and how they met each other and why they have money yes totally okay i do have

00:21:25.720 an additional prompt though from my understanding of mormonism isn't wealth like a part of practicing

00:21:32.640 the faith like if you are wealthy it's a sign that like you're divinely favored but also they're

00:21:38.640 encouraged to build up this worth because you know the world is going to end they're going to be the

00:21:43.860 only ones left they have these pantries that are stocked to last them like two years so there is

00:21:49.940 an element of like wealth is part of practicing the faith and then that gets passed down well

00:21:55.540 it's like wealth but it's not like it's not quite as brazen i don't know how to describe this like

00:22:01.160 you need to have enough money so that you can have a big enough house to have all of your children

00:22:05.460 like if you have a lot of children like it is expensive to have a lot of children and in

00:22:10.160 many of these homes not all but in many of these homes they're um especially if you're a middle

00:22:15.640 class lbs person like the mom isn't working because it's they're doing a full-time job of

00:22:22.260 taking care of the home um and the preparedness like i think a lot of it is just like you are

00:22:28.280 trying to be a pillar in your community and it's not like it's different than i don't know like

00:22:35.200 the evangelical like god blessed me with this wealth like wealth is a sign that i'm chosen

00:22:40.800 almost you know um yeah it's not prosperity gospel it's more like a being stable is is good

00:22:49.700 right well and there's also um there's you know they're supposed to pay 10 percent yes of their

00:22:56.880 income annually it's a tithing um and it's not optional it's not optional it's not like so the

00:23:03.360 wording on the lds website is fascinating i mean their website in general is fascinating

00:23:08.020 but it says it is you know decreed by holy law and so nobody can undo this law however

00:23:16.100 you know you're not going to be like struck down by the church if you don't pay it yeah so they

00:23:20.980 have this really interesting way of saying like it's totally not not optional so you should do it

00:23:26.480 if you can but still come to church if you're not well and the other thing that is an important

00:23:31.600 thing to point out is the mormons have a social safety net like none other right like if you need

00:23:37.900 help and you're like if something happens to your family like the mormon church is there to to help

00:23:42.960 you in all of these different ways financially but also just as a support system and you know

00:23:48.220 they they have other systems of like of education and of summer care and all sorts of things that

00:23:56.360 like i have a friend who actually like did all this reporting that's like maybe mormons are doing

00:24:01.840 like more interesting socialism than most of us understand um but you have to be a member of the

00:24:07.700 church, right? That's part of the work. A lot of families have lost tremendous amounts of wealth

00:24:14.360 and gone into crisis because of a one-time catastrophe, right? And if that happens to you

00:24:20.040 and you are a member of the LDS church, there are people to pick up the pieces for you. So

00:24:24.260 the stakes are just different. Yep. Yep. And I think that also makes it easier or more palatable

00:24:31.400 for them to push their you know conservative gender roles because feminists will you know

00:24:39.780 of course say in response to these religions that are telling their women to stay home and

00:24:44.600 devote themselves only to child care and domestic work you know what if your marriage crumbles what

00:24:50.180 will you do then and I think the Mormons have this kind of nice answer to that which is we'll

00:24:57.040 support you no matter what um or also like the idea there is a lawmaker in idaho who stood up

00:25:05.920 against any sort of accepting any any sort of federal funding for uh early childhood care

00:25:11.920 because he said the quiet part allowed like if we create care then moms will want to go to work

00:25:19.220 And I think the national response is like, so many families need two incomes in order to get by.

00:25:27.840 But if you live in a lot of these places in suburban or rural Idaho or in Utah, you don't necessarily need two incomes.

00:25:38.360 Right.

00:25:38.900 And I think that that also encourages that, like makes it possible so that women can live that lifestyle.

00:25:46.220 Right.

00:25:46.420 I guess I would say.

00:25:48.300 Okay.

00:25:49.220 Our next question is also about the money.

00:25:51.680 This comes from Hannah.

00:25:52.980 Has social media influencing replaced MLM scams as the preferred way for a socially ambitious middle-class Mormon woman to pull in money for her family without having the stigma of working outside the home?

00:26:04.520 It feels like most of these women on the show would have been selling Lula Roe or essential oils a decade ago.

00:26:10.480 100%.

00:26:10.920 Yes.

00:26:12.600 Well, and, you know, some of them are doing both, we should also say.

00:26:15.700 Like, the MLMs are not really going anywhere amongst the Mormon housewives.

00:26:21.680 But yeah, it is very much a similar business model.

00:26:26.200 Like, the top, top, top influencers are making a ton of money, but the vast majority are not making enough to live on.

00:26:34.780 The vast majority.

00:26:36.200 Yeah, but it is pocket money, right?

00:26:37.780 It's essentially part-time work in a society that does not make space for part-time work or for flexible work.

00:26:44.180 Right, right.

00:26:44.720 And that has long been the attraction of MLMs in really destructive ways, I think.

00:26:50.200 Yes.

00:26:50.940 And also, you know, in some ways, like, influencing recreates the strong and expansive networks of the Mormon church, but does it in a way that's, like, more national.

00:27:03.700 Mm-hmm.

00:27:04.700 Because so many more people can access your content than, like, just your Facebook friends.

00:27:10.280 Right.

00:27:10.400 Or, like, the members of your ward, right?

00:27:12.280 Right, right.

00:27:12.920 Well, in one, going back to Alyssa Grenfell, she made this other really interesting point that many of, you know, the most famous Mormon influencers start with these much smaller blogs that are much more specifically tailored to Mormon audiences, simply because the people in their community are Mormon and they know they're going to come in for that, you know, clean Mormon content.

00:27:38.260 And then as their platforms grow, the Mormonism becomes much more of an afterthought because they know that it's not appealing to a lot of mainstream audiences.

00:27:49.680 You look at Ballerina Farm, and we all know she's Mormon.

00:27:52.740 She occasionally posts, you know, temple content or, you know, Mormon wedding content.

00:27:58.080 But it's not nearly as big of a focus as it used to be.

00:28:03.780 Yeah.

00:28:04.300 the next question we're including just because it made melody um snort so this is a common question

00:28:12.620 when it comes to reality tv this comes from mitzi and melody's gonna read it how much do we think

00:28:18.300 they're getting paid to be on this show is it reasonable to assume dakota is just a c-list paid

00:28:23.600 actor and that's why he's such a hollow character he just seems fake but obviously brings a good

00:28:28.380 storyline to taylor my boyfriend would certainly step aside for two hundred thousand dollars and

00:28:34.920 let the tv world think i was dating a baboon for a year oh i hate him so much the first time that

00:28:44.740 he came on screen i was like that guy's squirrely i don't trust him yeah i mean from second one

00:28:51.200 The amount of, oh, I mean, one thing that really, his whole emotional abuse tactic with quote unquote commitment was really, really red flaggy.

00:29:04.120 His constant like, I'm tortured by this.

00:29:06.060 Why can't you commit to me?

00:29:07.480 Yeah.

00:29:07.940 Yeah.

00:29:08.180 Bad news.

00:29:08.660 Bad news.

00:29:09.160 But yes, hollow, hollow, hollow.

00:29:10.840 I would agree with that assessment in terms of his character.

00:29:13.980 But I don't think he was paid.

00:29:15.560 I think that a lot of the women on this show, and they actually talk about this, don't have sex education and don't have a relationship with birth control.

00:29:23.800 And thus, like, she found herself in a toxic relationship and then got pregnant and couldn't extricate herself from that relationship.

00:29:32.020 Yeah.

00:29:35.140 Okay.

00:29:35.820 Heavy sighs all around.

00:29:37.280 I know.

00:29:38.380 So let's move on to the second bucket of questions, the way that Mormonism is portrayed on the show.

00:29:43.920 this question from Maddie is a great way to get into it. What makes someone Mormon? Is it just

00:29:49.240 believing in the Book of Mormon? Do they have to abide by the beliefs and the practices of the

00:29:53.620 church? I feel like some of these women wouldn't be considered Mormons by other Mormons because

00:29:58.240 they don't seem to follow the rules of the church. Is the show really about Mormon girls gone wild,

00:30:03.260 or is it actually just about a group of women that live in Utah and don't follow the same rules

00:30:07.560 as their neighbors? Is the idea that they're Mormon just there for an intriguing title?

00:30:12.500 Wow, Maddie, just like getting at everything here.

00:30:15.540 Yeah, I love that question.

00:30:17.660 I mean, my first sense after thinking about this for a while

00:30:20.940 is that everyone on the show is culturally Mormon.

00:30:24.500 They have either grown up in Mormon homes

00:30:26.640 or in the case of Layla, converted to Mormonism.

00:30:30.660 They are surrounded by Mormonism, right?

00:30:33.380 Like Mormonism is the dominant culture,

00:30:35.680 the way that someone would say like Catholicism

00:30:39.260 is the dominant culture in various neighborhoods in boston right right right or like i don't know

00:30:45.140 lutheranism is the dominant culture in areas of minnesota yep yep i think that's right and so i

00:30:51.860 think some of it is this slipperiness between mormon culture and we should be clear here that

00:30:59.320 members of the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints are no longer supposed to call

00:31:03.820 themselves mormons yes yes this came down from the prophet that they should now call themselves

00:31:12.120 members of the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints right and i think some of that

00:31:17.140 message was to create this distinction between like the culture that is mormon right and we

00:31:24.460 like just that like that phrase almost and then this more formal word which we can use to describe

00:31:33.440 people who are what is sometimes called within the church tb um true believing mormons or true

00:31:40.700 blue mormons like which i think there are maybe two people on the show who could be categorized

00:31:47.640 or maybe three three um yeah what do what do you think about this yeah i mean they're certainly

00:31:56.220 very explicit and you know sometimes complicated um barriers of entry to quote unquote becoming a

00:32:04.700 Mormon um there's like an endowment ceremony there's lots of like counseling with church elders

00:32:11.640 um so I do think you know certainly converting to Mormonism is a series of steps um that you

00:32:21.280 have to actively take. But yeah, I think you're right. I would say most of these women just grew

00:32:27.740 up in Mormon culture and are culturally Mormon. But yeah, I mean, many of them don't go to church

00:32:34.880 regularly, as they openly say in interviews. But it's interesting that I've read the same thing

00:32:41.780 about the church no longer wanting to use the word Mormon. It's fascinating to me because that

00:32:47.360 word is what is bringing in so many eyeballs to the church in the first place so i just i i just

00:32:55.360 find like the lds's relationship to publicity really really interesting because they want it

00:33:02.680 very much but yeah i mean they they simply can't control what kind of publicity they're getting

00:33:10.480 and i think statements from the prophet saying like we're not going to use this word anymore

00:33:15.140 indicate that discomfort with the lack of control they have over their own publicity.

00:33:20.460 Yeah, yeah. And also, you know, some people, we got a couple like conspiracy questions that are

00:33:24.380 like, is the church actually funding this show? And I think some of those questions, I mean,

00:33:30.060 there are conspiracy questions about like the way that Catholicism works, the way that like

00:33:35.580 evangelical churches work, like it has to do with, there is a lot about the church that is not

00:33:43.820 of known right to people who are not part of the priesthood there are things that you learn when

00:33:51.300 you turn a certain age and there are things that you learn when you are invited like when you have

00:33:56.580 a temple recommend like when you can go into the temple um yeah i just think that there's this

00:34:01.940 under like like you said like the church itself has a complicated relationship with publicity

00:34:09.180 and has very publicly denounced this show right right without naming the title without naming

00:34:15.080 the show just be like there are people are interested in us because we're so popular

00:34:19.720 and then like depict things but i think one of the things that a lot of listeners were trying

00:34:25.100 to get to is like are they excommunicated and right i don't think like from what i can tell

00:34:31.900 the answer is no none of them have been excommunicated and you can be excommunicated

00:34:35.900 for sexual sins um i think it really like there is no governing body that is like

00:34:45.480 you're out and you're out and you're out it really depends like ward by ward what the bishop decides

00:34:52.240 like sometimes people can get excommunicated for having premarital sex and sometimes they can

00:34:56.780 talk like confess their sins and be welcome back into the fold and like someone like taylor could

00:35:03.620 be like if she's like i want to come back to this belief like you can do that right and that's also

00:35:11.080 good for the church's image yeah um and they can offer that up in response to i don't want to

00:35:19.100 minimize people's like very real um like there's a reason people have the quote-unquote ick when it

00:35:27.600 comes to this church like there's a lot of not great stuff and again I think to your point

00:35:33.080 many Christian patriarchal religions have lots of dirty laundry but I mean you know they didn't

00:35:39.460 admit black members until I think 1978 and that was in direct response to diminishing numbers in

00:35:49.180 membership yeah they explicitly opposed to the equal rights amendment they pretty much have a

00:35:56.780 don't ask, don't tell policy when it comes to queerness. So like, there's a lot of not great

00:36:02.280 stuff. And I also think the fact that it's a relatively new religion, it makes it easier for

00:36:07.820 us to look at the origin story, you know, with the golden plates, and of course, their relationship

00:36:13.400 to polygamy, and say, like, this is really weird. This is really culty. And yeah, some of the secret

00:36:19.560 ceremonies like the women as of I think 2019 had to wear veils over their faces um in certain church

00:36:27.180 ceremonies there are all these like once it's very easy to go down a Mormon rabbit hole I guess

00:36:32.340 is what I'm saying there's also the money factor they're worth like I think it's 265 billion as

00:36:38.740 of 2023 so all of these pieces together it just makes complete sense to me why people are looking

00:36:47.980 for insidious motives behind church leadership and yeah yeah i guess i just don't want to

00:36:55.120 disregard the conspiracy theories as like completely out of no not at all i just like

00:36:59.920 i think that people learn one small part about the religion and are like that's fucking crazy

00:37:06.720 you know what i mean they're like they have to wear garments and i'm like right like but like

00:37:12.320 there's just so many things you can point to that are that are more normalized and acceptable

00:37:17.760 parts of other christian religions yeah that's a great point that because they're more commonplace

00:37:23.340 they are not thought of as that ick do you know what i mean right like even um you know the

00:37:28.960 catholic like eating the blood and body of christ for example like that is super weird

00:37:33.680 like yeah so and i grew up christian like i know like i know the ways that these things

00:37:41.300 are normalized you're like oh and then there was an ark like

00:37:44.040 i mean the virgin mary it's just like you would go on and on and on yeah yeah but i think like

00:37:57.180 basically every religion there's real problems with um its handling of how to deal with people

00:38:03.380 who aren't like them yeah right and and also with conquest and with um conversion and forced

00:38:10.940 conversion and all sorts of things um so yeah we're on the same page okay so uh let's see

00:38:19.320 next question this comes from hillary a common theme of mormon shows seems to be that women

00:38:25.280 especially are rebranding a refutation of key tenets of mormonism drinking sex women as humans

00:38:32.060 as mormon 2.0 when it's just not really being mormon is it cultural attachment and fear that

00:38:39.520 keeps them from just saying like i'm a protestant now i well okay so here's the

00:38:45.520 an interesting moment in the episode and they're talking about the sex toys and whether or not

00:38:52.560 oh yes whitney to do whitney whitney's trying to decide whether to do like to and do the

00:38:57.720 endorsement for sex toys brand deal in some of the conversations she's like yeah you guys like

00:39:06.120 we want to create a different picture of Mormonism. And they're like, and the price is right, right?

00:39:11.780 Exactly.

00:39:12.780 Like, there's never any, like, disarticulation between, like, I will do this for this much money.

00:39:21.160 Or, like, if you give me this much money, I can, like, come up with an argument on why I should do this.

00:39:28.460 At the same time, there was this really interesting conversation between Whitney and her mom in her much younger

00:39:35.980 sister. And Whitney was like, Mom, I didn't know anything. I did not know anything about sex. I

00:39:43.840 was a virgin on my wedding night. It was horrible. And the mom's like, I had a toddler. Sorry, I

00:39:51.520 wasn't mom of the year telling you about how to have sex on your wedding night, which is complicated.

00:39:59.240 And also says, like Whitney says, sex toys have been really useful in my marriage and figuring

00:40:05.160 out sex like how to have good sex in my marriage and to me all this conversation pinpoints are

00:40:11.400 really fundamental tension that's also working in other forms of christianity and i think a lot

00:40:17.400 of religions which is like you have to demonize sex at all costs yep before marriage and then

00:40:27.500 suddenly it's like sex is the glory like it is worshiping god to have beautiful sex like it is

00:40:34.560 you're if you are an incredibly faithful person then you will have great sex yes yes yeah there's

00:40:42.700 Layla I think it's Layla had never had an orgasm before yes but yeah it is this huge disconnect in

00:40:49.260 so many Christian religions um like total abstinence total ignorance and then like be a

00:40:56.020 porn star for your husband yes actually um like I think Jen like they're talking about like who

00:41:02.060 sends the most like naughty selfies and I think it's Jen who is married to you know the worst

00:41:08.320 husband of them all I think we all agree yes um but yeah it is this really fascinating like

00:41:16.080 I think it feels like my sexuality and my like sexual prowess belongs in some ways to my husband

00:41:26.040 because it only belongs within marriage yeah and it's only acceptable within marriage

00:41:31.760 But yeah, I did think that scene was interesting with Whitney's mother because I think she said something to the effect of, you know, if I could have done things differently, knowing now how you felt, I probably would have.

00:41:43.560 So, yeah, that was interesting for sure.

00:41:46.360 But like, are they actually trying to be progressive and or are they trying to like just be secular and say, like, we want to live secular lives and this is how we be like, you know what I mean?

00:41:59.980 Like, are they just, like, trying to shoehorn themselves into Mormonism by saying, like, the way that I'm living my life right now is Mormonism 2.0, right?

00:42:10.360 Yeah, I mean, they say so many times, like, they're just beating that drum throughout the whole show about how they're trying to pave this new path forward for Mormon women.

00:42:21.500 And I think it does read pretty hollow because, like, these aren't typical Mormon women in that they're, you know, highly visible, highly financially successful influencers.

00:42:35.240 I mean, yes, a lot of influencers are Mormon, but they're public facing in a way that many Mormon housewives are not.

00:42:43.880 and i think it's also just good for their business yeah to have a very clear narrative

00:42:50.340 about their mormonism and their narrative is that they're doing things differently um is it who is

00:42:57.920 it the one with the really long i this is not good i was just gonna say the really long blonde hair

00:43:03.420 yeah but she's the blondest oh what is her name the blondest uh uh neely something neely macy

00:43:10.940 macy yes okay so it's very interesting yes and she is sort of you know classic white feminist

00:43:19.060 boss babe where she opens up her it's called baby mama it's products for the whole natal experience

00:43:26.280 um and she says i think this show shares one of like a still from one of her tiktoks where she's

00:43:32.760 like you know i'm a ceo now of my own company and they're really into talking about how they're the

00:43:38.800 breadwinners for their family but by adhering to very very specific beauty norms and standards of

00:43:47.300 femininity and working within capitalism like that's how they're able to do this they're not

00:43:53.000 really they're not changing any of the rules for the vast majority of Mormon women I don't think

00:43:59.300 and they're not publicly disavowing the church either even um I think Jessie says like you know

00:44:06.940 she's the one that drinks occasionally yeah um and i think she's like she's actually like not

00:44:12.480 involved in the church at all anymore right right she's the one that owns the uh hair extension

00:44:16.000 company and so on yeah yeah but um you know she said she doesn't go to church anymore and she

00:44:21.340 doesn't agree you know a couple of them call the church misogynistic or at least their views

00:44:26.280 towards women misogynistic but not so much that they're publicly disavowing you know their

00:44:32.580 connection to the church so i think it's just interesting that they use their mormonism on

00:44:39.600 whatever scale it exists to create a brand and to create these businesses and they're leaning on

00:44:47.140 mainstream cultures knowledge of these you know usually retrograde gender roles within

00:44:52.400 mormon relationships as a way to say we're different when in fact i'm not sure how different

00:44:59.820 i think in basically every way they want they want to have their cake and eat it too

00:45:07.700 right like they still want to be associated with cultural mormonism because it is

00:45:16.020 exotic to mainstream audiences yep and to advertisers and advertisers but they don't

00:45:23.100 want to be like subject to the specific demands of mormonism right right and they also don't want to

00:45:31.620 publicly critique in engaged ways that would jeopardize like their standing with

00:45:37.900 their culture right like with their friends and family and their communities yeah so i think that

00:45:43.640 like they they they want to have all of those associations yeah and keep them all active at

00:45:49.240 the same time yep and that's too why like they all like are moms right and they all are heterosexual

00:45:58.980 and they all like there there's not a lot of busting of the status quo going on here but i

00:46:04.720 think making that claim that like we are expanding the understanding of what a mormon can be

00:46:08.520 also sends this message to a certain sort of consumer like a certain sort of person who's

00:46:13.920 watching their TikToks that are like, look, she's kind of feminist, right? You know what I mean?

00:46:19.420 Yes. And I think even though the church like has spoken against the show, again, without naming the

00:46:25.620 show explicitly, it could also be another soft way of reeling people in. If, you know, the average

00:46:34.420 gal who's looking to have a good time and, you know, not just pray about how many children she's

00:46:40.800 gonna have which as far as i can tell i was doing a deep dive on the lds website like i think that

00:46:45.800 is their recommendation um that you pray on it and it's kind of your responsibility to have as

00:46:51.520 many as possible especially if you have the means to do so they explicitly talk about child uh

00:46:57.380 bearing as like a religious responsibility yeah um so i think it could be for some like oh i can

00:47:05.500 be Mormon and not do all the shitty stuff like I can only like Whitney when she's you know she

00:47:12.780 announces her pregnancy spoiler alert at the end of the series her third pregnancy and says like

00:47:18.240 yeah it's gonna be her last baby like that kind of isn't classic classically Mormon of her in many

00:47:25.660 ways I think a lot of it is like what have mainstream audiences been trained to see as

00:47:32.220 classically Mormon, which is in many ways these really hyperbolic narratives, like the ballerina

00:47:41.740 farm narrative, like eight kids is a hyperbolic number of kids. Or it's FLDS, it's fundamentalist

00:47:47.840 LDS, which is also not Mormonism, right? And that's the thing, like I think some people are

00:47:53.060 like, if they're not wearing like actual prairie dresses, right, and have long, long hair and are

00:47:59.180 practicing polygamy like that's that is the actual mormonism in some way and that's incomplete like

00:48:04.740 that's just not true right um so yeah there's like these two poles that are both represented

00:48:11.900 most often or like that that we see represented most vividly i would say yeah um okay our next

00:48:18.640 question is going to get into some things about agency and this kind of reminds me about some of

00:48:23.640 the conversation we had about Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders. Let's hear from Elise. I can't stop

00:48:29.400 thinking about the idea that is someone oppressed if they don't know they are oppressed? Is it

00:48:34.640 subjective? And only once you learn more or get out of the situation, then you start calling it

00:48:40.100 oppressed? If you perceive it as your choice, you are not oppressed? Thinking in terms of Jen from

00:48:45.860 Mormon Wives, but also Ballerina Farm. And why do we, they, bend over backwards to protect the men

00:48:51.720 in their lives. How do we help them see it happening? In another vein, I grew up Mormon

00:48:57.040 and married Mormon and do not have this relationship with my husband. We are no longer strong members,

00:49:02.120 but attend occasionally. He would not have batted an eye about Chippendales, but I also believe the

00:49:07.260 Mormon church cultivates men and women like Jen and Zach, but men and women like that exist outside

00:49:12.580 of Mormonism too. So what's really going on here? The first thing I'll say for people who haven't

00:49:20.520 watch the show is there is this whole subplot later in the the season where essentially uh

00:49:28.220 there's like a girls weekend in vegas and they go to a chipmendales show and jen's husband who

00:49:36.820 is incredibly controlling and she feels weird about going and she doesn't actually end up going

00:49:42.240 but then and he's also sub narrative out gambling with the money that she makes

00:49:49.200 um and gambling is also not something that you're supposed to do if you're a mormon um

00:49:54.520 and there's a whole back and forth like where he essentially is like you're a horrible person

00:50:01.200 i should leave you like all these things um okay so this first part of this question though

00:50:08.000 is something that i think you grapple with all the time which is this valance of feminism

00:50:14.460 that's like if someone is choosing it then it's their choice kind of right right yeah it's this

00:50:22.260 came up a ton after the um times profile on ballerina farm in particular you know in response

00:50:29.320 to her response to the profile in which she was like you know this was a hit piece um this person

00:50:38.100 twisted our words. This life was my choice. I love this life. And I think particularly when

00:50:48.600 we're talking about white women, they can participate in cultures that oppress women

00:50:58.220 if they are reaping benefits from that same power structure. It's, you know, it's exactly like

00:51:06.680 girl boss feminism like if a woman enters a you know a business as a ceo and continues to pay her

00:51:17.160 employees badly ships for free and doesn't pay the people working in the shipping is a horrible

00:51:23.500 abusive boss thank you thank you like if she's still continuing to maintain an abusive power

00:51:30.800 structure it's not intersectionally feminist no and i think white femininity is a really powerful

00:51:38.680 tool to be wielded it's always contingent on the person's relationship to white male power

00:51:45.240 and if that relationship crumbles so does her power so it's never true power i mean if we're

00:51:52.700 looking at ballerina farm again as like just our go-to or example of all these things if they got

00:51:59.920 divorced um and those millions from the jet blue dynasty were no longer accessible to her um you

00:52:08.120 know what would happen to her custody again with the millions of money on her husband's side like

00:52:13.380 all of these things all of this so-called power and all this so-called free agency

00:52:18.780 are contingent on cooperating within an oppressive power structure and maintaining that through

00:52:27.380 cooperation and i would say other women in her sphere not like some of the people on the show

00:52:32.700 i don't think that i actually think they encourage her like to see this abuse as abuse they're like

00:52:40.200 i do think there are women on this show particularly uh again they all look the same

00:52:46.780 to me to me yeah and macy like they both of them they're like this relationship is fucked up and

00:52:52.900 you shouldn't be a part of it right yes yes but in their their actual cultural sphere there are

00:52:59.240 many more women who are saying like and also by example like if you get divorced it's gonna really

00:53:05.660 suck yeah right right right particularly for jen whose mother again you know the cultural power

00:53:13.280 imbalance is there yes can't be overstated yeah whenever it comes to choice and agency within

00:53:20.820 power structures that are historically and effectively bad for women it's like always

00:53:26.460 going to be a hollow type of choice i think yeah yeah i think like in a lot of high control

00:53:33.680 religions part of the way that that control manifests it's it's part of the doctrine but

00:53:38.540 then it also has to take place in the home and so like as a man you're taught like you are the

00:53:44.860 head of your household like these behaviors are normal yep and so that to me you know i think

00:53:51.660 you know this question points out like the mormon church creates relationships like that and i think

00:53:56.400 this is a relationship that like is particularly typical of high control religions because it just

00:54:03.200 is like a natural manifestation of that structure and action right um okay so i do think we need to

00:54:12.160 address like the abusive component here a little bit so i don't think we can talk about any of the

00:54:17.640 feminism without also talking about like the the very vividly displayed emotional abuse that's

00:54:24.020 going on so let's hear this question from becky i thought this would be a fun watch but i can't

00:54:29.780 stop thinking about how controlling abusive these men are it's awful is there a question there

00:54:37.560 agree disagree oh my gosh yeah i mean we definitely have to talk about zach but

00:54:45.600 because i don't want to forget about this there was one scene um with taylor and dakota she's like

00:54:51.940 days away from giving birth um she's stated multiple times she's exhausted in every sense

00:54:58.580 of the word like multiple multiple multiple times and dakota shows up and she's like lying in bed

00:55:05.180 and he's just been constantly haranguing her about why can't you commit to me why can't we

00:55:11.060 get married and this is like you know part a function of you know mormonism really wants

00:55:16.380 you to be married if you're having a child together but it's also a really effective way

00:55:20.840 of him controlling her and exercising control over her yeah and she's in bed and she's just

00:55:26.460 silently tears are just silently falling down her face yeah and he's like i'm so sorry babe i love

00:55:33.740 you and but you gotta commit to me you gotta commit to me and it's like that also was just

00:55:40.100 clear abuse to me clear emotional abuse to me and yeah I mean a couple of the women in response to

00:55:48.900 both Dakota and Zach they say well Jen specifically says this about Zach like I think his problem is

00:55:56.000 that he cares too much. Right. And I think many women are, you know, raised to view a man who

00:56:05.840 is fiery, is passionate and controlling as someone who just loves you so, so, so, so much.

00:56:13.120 Yep. And, you know, you see it in romantic comedies when the protagonist is essentially

00:56:19.160 stalking the woman and ringing her doorbell. And, you know, there's the book, what's the

00:56:24.040 say anything yeah yeah yeah he's like yeah it's like these are like soft forms of stalking and

00:56:29.460 you know there's no consent from the woman in any of these scenarios and yeah it did i agree with

00:56:35.480 the person who wrote that question it was it wasn't fun to watch because of these elements

00:56:40.220 what did you think of i just think like a lot of these women got married very young and in many

00:56:46.480 situations under duress because of a pregnancy or because they had gotten divorced and were still

00:56:53.000 very young and needed to have a partner I do not think everyone who gets married young is

00:56:58.100 emotionally immature but I think that there was not a lot of space for them to figure out who they

00:57:02.900 were and what mattered to them and that now they are grappling with trying to figure that out and

00:57:09.100 a husband who who understands them as a threat right who understands like even them being on

00:57:15.800 the show as a threat, right? Which is a perfect tee up to our next and last question. This comes

00:57:22.920 from Elizabeth. The money part was the part that I kept getting stuck on. These women are the

00:57:29.100 breadwinners and mom talk equals financial power. Yet they are required to only express their power

00:57:35.620 through looks, dancing, and momming. The men remain in charge. And all the men were so immature.

00:57:41.940 So doesn't this show sort of prove that financial power for women is the greatest threat to patriarchy, the greatest actual threat, while demonstrating how patriarchy has made us our own oppressors?

00:57:56.700 I mean, we are our worst oppressors.

00:57:58.920 Elizabeth, doesn't this prove?

00:58:02.460 What a question.

00:58:04.400 What's your response to it?

00:58:07.000 I mean, yes.

00:58:08.560 I mean, she kept using, Jen kept using the word tricky to describe the fact that she made money, essentially, and to rationalize Zach's really toxic response to that.

00:58:26.040 You know, she kept saying, like, it's tricky because in a traditional Mormon household, the man is the breadwinner and I'm the breadwinner.

00:58:32.660 And, you know, he's trying to go to med school, which she's, I guess, going to have to fund.

00:58:41.020 But, yeah, the other angle of that question that I really liked was they're making all this money by performing good womanhood and good, you know, motherhood, essentially.

00:58:51.020 which is how so many momflencers make their money by essentially gaming the system yeah and i think

00:58:58.880 that it's true though that like all of these relationships are somewhat destabilized or at

00:59:05.680 least from like the traditional poles of authority by the fact that the woman is the the most

00:59:11.820 prominent the most visible bringing in the finances for the family and so how do you react

00:59:17.540 to that vulnerability and that like threat to your masculinity and to patriarchy you have to be

00:59:23.920 like it's like a cartoon level of controlling yeah and there's also like a huge level of irony

00:59:31.200 in the mormon um momfluencer boom is that the woman is the star of that show um the husband is

00:59:41.640 always a background character he's always boring in comparison to the momfluencer it's just always

00:59:47.940 the case they're props they are when they appear in the videos they are like secondary character

00:59:54.360 like they're not even characters they are props right and if anything they're only appearing as

00:59:59.120 this sort of lip service to mormon patriarchy to show like here he is doing the man stuff here he

01:00:05.980 is uh driving a tractor whatever the fuck we're calling man stuff but yeah yeah he's always just

01:00:12.560 so irrelevant to the story yes or he has an instagram account called hog fathering

01:00:19.540 that's the most boring of them all sorry sorry daniel

01:00:24.380 well we we really covered so much and there's so much more that we could talk about and i i

01:00:31.500 really hope we do get into it in the comments on this one um sarah if people want to find more of

01:00:37.060 you on the internet where can they find you um so my sub stack is in pursuit of clean countertops

01:00:42.440 and i'm on instagram at s louise peterson with an e just like ann hellen's i really cannot

01:00:50.280 recommend the sub stack enough like i just it's one of my favorite reads and if you like any of

01:00:55.120 this sort of conversation then i i really hope people go and check it out so thank you again

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Culture Study Podcast - September 25, 2024

Will MomTok Even Survive This？!？!

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