00:01:18.560We're basically just going to solve this entire crisis today.0.99
00:01:22.180By the end of today's conversation, this is a promise, Sky Mommy willing, if you are listening to this, by the end of today's episode, you will no longer be worried about trans athletes in women's sports, okay?0.91
00:01:33.160That is a diabolicalized guarantee, and if you are still worried about it, please reach out to me and let me know why, okay?0.60
00:01:39.640So that is like a promise I am making that I would rarely make about a conversation.
00:01:43.120We are going to comprehensively cover this topic.
00:01:45.700Okay, yes, but are you going to give me sufficient one-liners to use at Thanksgiving dinner when this subject arises?
00:04:14.460starting is like, with athletes, the better and more competitive you are, the more your standards
00:04:19.040increase such that you are extremely touchy about success. I can see that.
00:04:24.280C, exhibit A, Riley Gaines signing her life over to Turning Point USA because one trans woman tied
00:04:30.860with her in the pool once. We will get to that later. The trans women in sports conversation is
00:04:36.220what we call a wedge issue in politics. A wedge issue, you probably know, Katie, but just to say1.00
00:04:40.860it a lot. It's kind of like a divisive topic that politicians will use to sort of wedge open the
00:04:45.440divide between supporters, where it is nowhere near the top 20, the top 30, the top 50 of important
00:04:52.240issues in your life, but it can often become the topic that is so galvanizing that it will cause
00:04:57.700people to vote for a politician. Didn't Megyn Kelly specifically say that women's volleyball1.00
00:05:03.040all was her deciding issue in this election? She sure did. So, Katie, we're going to start1.00
00:05:11.220off today with a piece of information that I almost considered making the punchline to this
00:05:15.440episode. So, there are 510,000 NCAA athletes in the country right now. How many of them are trans?
00:05:23.120Three. Close. Close. There are fewer than 10 that publicly identify as trans at gender.1.00
00:05:30.640Single digits. This is for both men and women's sports. So trans women and trans men. This is from January. So this is very updated data. And something that I just want to kind of like get off the bat right now is that there is a constant fear with trans people that if you allow them into any space, if you allow them basic rights, they will take over the population.
00:05:51.860I just kind of want to pause this and let people think about how difficult that is to understand in a functional level for competitive sports.
00:06:02.900By nature of how competitive sports function, it's almost impossible for a transgender person to hide their identity from their team and their coaching staff.0.99
00:06:10.560If you are in an NCAA program, there are so many rules and regulations and protocols that your fucking head will spin.0.87
00:06:18.280So first and foremost, there is no fathomable way that we have thousands or tens of thousands of trans athletes unidentified. It's not. It's not an option.0.99
00:06:27.920Do they ever, like, acknowledge the fact that all of this is over, like, seven people?
00:06:34.120No. No, we're going to get to that because for them, it's not seven people. So we're going to
00:06:39.180get to that. But I just kind of want to, like, talk this all the way through because there's
00:06:42.640this fear that trans athletes, if allowed to participate in sports, will continue to take
00:06:47.600over more and more teams, right? And I just want people to think, when you are in the NCAA, you
00:06:52.480have four years of eligibility. That is the amount of time that you can compete, which means that
00:06:57.340for a trans athlete to compete in the NCAA, they would have to decide that they're trans at a young
00:07:02.980age. They would have to have parents who support their transition and are willing to pay for the
00:07:08.680cost of the transition. Because if you were an NCAA athlete, you don't have the time to be working
00:07:13.760more than like a very part-time job. So you're not paying for it yourself. You would have to go
00:07:17.980through hormone therapy. A lot of transgender people never do that. You would have to take0.93
00:07:22.680at least a year off, if not two years from school. So again, you would have to be in a financial
00:07:27.420position where your parents are willing for you to do that. And you would have to do all those
00:07:31.320things in order to finally enter the NCAA as a trans athlete. So I say this right now to make
00:07:37.380it very clear that these are the numbers that we are dealing with. They were never going to explode.
00:07:43.760And I think there's also the natural limitation of what percentage of the population is trans
00:07:49.060to begin with? We have estimates that are very rough that are between 0.5% and 1%.
00:07:55.580Right. Okay. So we're already talking about a relatively small group, but within that
00:07:59.880already very small group, how much privilege, access, support do you have? And how early
00:08:07.300are you beginning the transition? Exactly. Okay. I'm following.
00:08:11.140Let's move on to the Olympics, Katie. How many trans athletes have competed in the Olympics
00:08:15.540since the policy for trans athletes was implemented in 2003.
00:08:19.880And what is the policy for trans athletes?
00:08:22.280Tons of regulations, like hormone therapy, all these things.
00:08:25.180Well, extrapolating, if there are fewer than 10 NCAA athletes that are trans,
00:08:32.120I would assume like fewer than five, maybe none, two, three?
00:08:37.980Two trans women in the world have made it to the Olympics.0.98
00:08:42.640Only one of them competed, and she didn't meddle for anything.0.80
00:10:57.020In late September, during the final tense weeks of the Kentucky governor's race, a few hundred thousand voters started seeing ads in their Facebook feeds, YouTube channels, and text messages.
00:11:07.320One spot showed a teenage boy dominating a high school girls' wrestling competition.
00:11:13.100The other showed a boy easily winning a girls' track race.
00:15:27.740But I think it's also true that this support was kind of skin deep.
00:15:32.520I think it's very fair to say that most people didn't know how they felt about trans rights,
00:15:36.980didn't really feel educated on it, didn't understand it.
00:15:39.340This is a very new topic to reach the mainstream.
00:15:41.420And so I think that they were obviously onto something, which is that, like, people might be a little bit uncomfortable with this, and they don't know why yet.
00:15:48.500And if we give them a little hand-holding, they might learn why.
00:15:51.860So we obviously all know what happened next.
00:15:54.260Biden won, Trump lost, and over the next four years, the trans athlete conversation took off, okay?
00:16:02.160During his time in office, Biden signed legislation to protect trans athletes.0.97
00:16:06.480And by the time the 2024 election came around, the GOP was fucking ready.0.64
00:16:09.800So let's fast forward to the night of the 2024 presidential election, and we can check in with our boy, Terry Schilling, and we can see what he thinks about all of this.
00:16:19.000Terry, how are you feeling about the results we're seeing so far?
00:16:21.960I think Trump's outperforming in a lot of areas.
00:16:24.900They just called Florida, so it's an exciting night.
00:16:27.780It's all going to come down to Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, or Michigan.
00:16:30.540Those are going to be what determines who wins.
00:19:20.200Talk about manufacturing consent, manufacturing opinion.
00:19:23.180I don't want to say it's a non-issue because we're going to talk today about what it's rooted in, but when you think about the issues that the average American is facing and the fact that they got a not insignificant number of people to change their vote or to show up and vote when they might not have over this issue, I mean, it's brilliant, frankly.
00:19:40.140It's a brilliant political strategy. They did an incredible job. Hats off. So since in office, Trump has followed through on his promise. He has already signed executive orders related to reinforcing a gender binary, which is technically backed by thousands of years of science.
00:19:54.620It's—oh, wait, sorry, I'm reading Riley Gaines' talking points for a Turning Point USA keynote speech.
00:20:12.020Transgender athletes are currently banned from college sports.1.00
00:20:14.960Clearly, they did not listen to our Luigi episode because, boy, oh, boy, did they obey in fucking advance.0.99
00:20:20.040One of those executive orders, I remember, talked about sex at conception as the definitive marker that would be enforced. And there was some chatter online at the time about how fucking stupid that is because like embryos don't have, you don't have a sex until like two months into a pregnancy or something in that ballpark.0.99
00:20:47.940There is no sex at conception. It reminds me of the episode that we did about Imani Khalif and Blonde Highlights or Gender-Affirming Care was the title of that one because there is always this emphasis on the fact that biological sex is supposedly very easily defined and that biology is very self-evident, but it's actually far more subjective.0.99
00:21:14.740And I think this executive order inadvertently highlights that it's a far more subjective criteria than, like, anyone probably realizes what defines a woman.
00:21:25.320What allows you to say that somebody is not a woman?
00:21:27.760Is it that they have high testosterone levels or they have some sort of chromosomal oddity?
00:21:33.340Is it pregnancy, the ability to get pregnant?
00:21:35.280Like, you can kind of see when you start trying to flesh out the criteria why it would fall short to any reasonable person.
00:21:45.700And I don't know, it just feels like a lot of the time when you really get down to it, the criteria that they rely on is, do you look womanly enough?
00:21:54.800Katie, we're going to have such a good time today.
00:21:56.280I just also have to say, I love your nuance, but I need to remind you that we live in a country that is like five years away from forcing people to climb up Mount Olympus,
00:22:04.100where J.K. Rowling is sitting cross-legged,
00:22:05.920and she just decides if you're a man or a woman, okay?
00:23:20.880Yeah, quick cutaway to every American on a couch somewhere0.95
00:23:23.400with a woman's jersey on their back,0.52
00:23:25.420just, you know, desperately excited for women's sports, so.1.00
00:23:28.240There's a lot riding on women's sports.0.81
00:23:31.100I'm going to do some extra hand-holding here today1.00
00:23:32.860because we have a lot of numbers, to reiterate, half a million NCAA athletes in this country.
00:23:38.060Women comprise 44% of those athletes. So approximately 224,000 female athletes.
00:23:44.760We have scientists saying that there are 10 registered trans athletes, and they said at
00:23:48.680the very most, there might be 100 female trans athletes. So let's go over the guesstimate more
00:23:54.780than the actual number, because that's how people like to function in the trans debate,
00:23:58.260vibes over facts. So if there are 100 trans female athletes in the NCAA, that means that0.99
00:24:03.540they comprise 0.04% of the female elite athletic population. Seems like a reasonable number to1.00
00:24:09.460cause an entire nation to absolutely lose our fucking minds. Katie, before I get into the0.99
00:24:14.960arguments that we are going to kind of deconstruct today, could you try to summarize the argument
00:24:18.700against trans athletes for me in as good faith a way as possible? Okay, in good faith. Yeah.
00:24:23.420I think people feel uncomfortable with it because there is an idea. It's unfair for boys to compete in girls' sports. That the girls are somehow going to be hurt by it. That the competition will be skewed in some way. Or women will be, like, literally hurt by it. Physically, you will be injured playing against boys. Does that more or less sum it up?
00:24:46.660Yeah, that does sum it up. I'm going to take everything you said, which is completely correct, and distill it into two distinct categories, safe and fair.
00:24:56.780Those are the words I want everyone to remember, safe and fair. We need to keep our women safe, and we need to give them an even playing field to compete.
00:26:00.700It didn't reach organization the way that we understand it now, but people played games
00:26:04.620all the time with each other, men and women.
00:26:06.560So in the 1800s, the Victorian era, this is where things changed pretty dramatically. We had this kind of coming together of dignified society where it wasn't just royalty who wanted to appear and engage in a different way, but it was this whole emerging middle class.
00:26:21.100And so with that, you kind of had this reinforcement of a certain type of gender politics in which women like essentially became porcelain dolls.
00:26:29.100Are you telling me that the gender binary, as we might think about it today, has origins in class consciousness or class awareness?0.94
00:27:19.320They don't have a gender binary the way that we do, and look how uncivilized they are.1.00
00:27:24.600This is also a period of flourishing race science because you have upper-class white women. You know, you have fashion, too, that's constricting the body, constricting the lungs. You're wearing corsets. You can barely breathe. And so, naturally, a white woman would become very frail. She would not develop muscles, right? She's not even cooking if she has enough money.1.00
00:27:43.340And by nature in comparison, you are looking at a Black woman who, of course, has muscles. And so the argument they made was, well, they're built differently, as opposed to, well, no, they're performing back-breaking labor all day long, and you're sitting on a couch drinking tea in a corset.0.99
00:27:59.440But this was very essential groundwork because the argument was women don't build muscle like men.0.75
00:28:07.020If women are building muscle like men, then that means that they are other.1.00
00:28:12.460Real women are frail and weak and their bodies don't even respond to sports the way that—1.00
00:28:17.960Caroline, you should stop quoting the Riley Gaines Turning Point USA speech talking points now.1.00
00:31:44.440I have no hesitation in saying that there is no athletic sport or game in which some women cannot enter, not only without fear of injury, but also with great prospects of success.0.99
00:31:54.680So, pause. This was the part in the letter where I was like, okay, all right. He thinks women can do anything. Wrong. Keep reading.
00:32:01.960In nearly every instance, however, it will be found that the women who are able to excel in the rougher and more masculine sports have either inherited or acquired masculine characteristics.1.00
00:32:15.700This must necessarily be so, since it is only by taking on masculine attributes that success in certain forms of athletics can be won.1.00
00:32:24.820For instance, she could not hope to succeed in rowing or in handling heavyweights without broadening the waist and shoulders and strengthening the muscles of the back and—0.99
00:32:37.860like, nor do the limitations which I have mentioned apply to young girls from 10 to 15 years of age0.96
00:32:45.000who, if properly trained, will often surpass boys of the same age in any kind of game or
00:32:50.820athletic performance. Okay, go off. But it is at these ages that girls have neat trim and boyish
00:32:57.980figures. Oh, this is getting creepy. As a man who ardently studies the body of 12-year-old girls,0.62
00:33:03.700If girls received the same kind of physical training as boys throughout their growing and developing period, they could make a much more credible showing as athletes when they became adult women.
00:33:12.980The interesting question is, would such girls become more womanly women and the boys more manly men?
00:33:20.540I am often asked, are girls overdoing athletics at school and college?
00:33:24.620I have no hesitation in saying that in many of the schools where basketball is being played according to rules for boys, many girls are injuring themselves in playing this game.
00:33:33.120There will be little honor or glory in winning a race, playing a game, or doing a, quote,0.80
00:33:37.380stunt, which every other girl could do.0.93
00:33:39.780It is in the attempt to win distinction by doing something that others cannot do that0.98
00:33:43.540the girl who is overzealous or too ambitious is likely to do herself an injury.
00:33:48.220For this reason, girls who are ambitious to enter athletic contests should be carefully1.00
00:33:52.580examined and selected by a physician or trained woman expert.1.00
00:34:02.060what year was that published? 1912. Wow. Well, I guess what I found so striking is
00:34:08.680the readiness with which he just kind of is like, yeah, I mean, obviously if girls train,
00:34:14.240they're going to be like as good or better than the boys. It's not really about physical ability
00:34:19.120or biology. It's about, is this going to make these prepubescent girls less womanly? And do0.98
00:34:25.380we want them to be less womanly? Which is like a completely different thing. I loved this letter
00:34:30.840because I agree. It's almost like this clashing of modernity and old school traditionalism where
00:34:36.560a lot of people did not agree with what he's saying, that women could do sports. There were
00:34:40.940a lot of arguments that any playing will lead to reproductive harm for women's organs. People
00:34:46.980didn't all agree with this. So it's interesting that he has this modern belief, but as old school
00:34:51.600as it gets. And we see it there at the very end. Any woman who plays sports is inherently
00:34:57.180entering almost like a Chinese finger trap. You cannot play sports without becoming a man. Sports1.00
00:35:04.740are not for women. Women are not for sports. So you are literally creating these categories that1.00
00:35:09.760exist in direct opposition to one another. And what's more, there are people arguing that sports
00:35:14.640will medically change women. And he's suggesting from the jump, we need to examine any woman who
00:35:21.740wants to play sports to the point of trying to win something. Because as soon as she tries to tie1.00
00:35:26.940sports to ambition something's off and she should be medically examined oh wow oh it's so interesting
00:35:34.720how like the desire to do so is masculine but that the participation is further masculinizing
00:35:41.580oh man that's really interesting so this is the introduction of something we're going to see
00:35:46.540quite a bit which is the idea that women can and should play sports if the goal is for basic
00:35:52.060exercise or teamwork or camaraderie. As soon as this tips over into ambition or competitiveness,1.00
00:35:58.540no way. And as soon as they start to succeed at it, that is when you pull out these arguments,
00:36:03.300which is, hold on a second. Like, if they're doing well, they, by definition, must have taken
00:36:08.400on masculine traits and maybe even have become men. Oh, I can totally see how this slippery
00:36:13.040slope led us here, now that you lay it out like that. So, when you have these two categories that
00:36:18.680are existing in opposition to one another. What do you do with the women who still want to play1.00
00:36:23.000sports? So at this time period, women were warned constantly that they were at risk of physical0.98
00:36:28.520harm if they played sports, right? They altered the rules of basketball to promote teamwork rather1.00
00:36:33.260than competition. How do you alter the rules of basketball? I tried to find out. They take the
00:36:38.160baskets away. Exactly, exactly, exactly. Just pass to one another. I do think it's interesting too.
00:36:44.560So schools were largely, of course, segregated at this time, and white women created all these organizations that were very concerned about women's sports, but of course they ignored Black women. So Black colleges actually flourished for female athletics because they were already fit. You didn't have that same relationship to masculinity in the same way that you did with women emerging from this Victorian era being terrified of developing a bicep.
00:37:08.820So, fast forward to the post-war period, right? Women had entered the workforce during the World Wars. There was a rising feminist movement. Women are attending college in more increasing numbers. And during this time, female athletics operated under this phrase called sports for all.1.00
00:37:25.300And the goal of sports for all was that you needed equal opportunity among women in athletic activities, regardless of skill and ability, and they wanted to maintain an underlying purpose of women's health for motherhood. Nothing to do with winning. So what was the goal here? Safe and fair. Make things safe and make them fair.1.00
00:37:47.680This was between the 1930s up until the 1970s.
00:37:51.380Okay, so I've told you this story before, but I'm going to say it on the air because I just think it just tickles me. My mom was actually an incredible athlete, very athletic, played all the sports and did it all well. And when she was around 10 years old, so this would have been in 1973, she wanted to play baseball. And there was only a boys baseball team.
00:38:16.240I guess she could have played softball, but she wanted to play baseball with the boys, and she was really good.0.91
00:38:20.980And so her mom, my grandma Jean, basically threw a fit until they let her play on the boys' team.0.99
00:38:30.980So she got her picture in their local paper in her little uniform, and she's, like, standing there with the bat, and she had, like, long blonde hair in this baseball uniform.0.79
00:38:39.800And the caption says, Mary Bry says she's not a woman's libber.