00:00:00.000The silence is broken by somebody crying, trying to be heard, never a word, always the attitude, sort out your own, always alone, wishing for something the world is denying.
00:00:25.000Out in the wilderness somebody's crying
00:00:29.800Somebody wishing for something to happen
00:00:52.200Someone to lean on and someone to trust
00:00:56.300Who needs your assistance and finds your disguise
00:01:00.900Hello everyone and welcome back to another year of For the Wild podcast.
00:01:16.540We want to extend a huge bow to everyone who contributed to the Kickstarter
00:01:21.700and helped us become the most backed farm project in Kickstarter history.
00:01:27.540With your donations, we've been able to gear up for our first batch of 40,000 trees next month.
00:01:32.960We're also excited to launch our new podcast study guides,
00:01:38.000which are an amazing resource to learn more about these complex topics.
00:01:43.520Head over to forthewild.world to download them soon.
00:01:48.740Today we are speaking with Angelo Baca.
00:01:51.700As a Ph.D. student in the Department of Anthropology at New York University, Angelo has research interest in indigenous international repatriation, indigenous food sovereignty, and sacred lands protection.
00:02:06.420He promotes a local participatory research methodology and empowering traditional knowledge keepers.
00:02:12.840He has taught a variety of Native American and indigenous course topics from college to Ivy League university settings.
00:02:20.120As a documentary filmmaker, Angelo has developed digital storytelling projects in close collaboration
00:02:33.840He is the co-president of the Native American and Indigenous Students Group at NYU, assisting
00:02:39.580in facilitating an Indigenous Studies Program minor, and he is also on the selection committee
00:02:45.000for the Chief Diversity Officer at NYU.
00:02:47.500you. Angelo, thank you so much for being here to speak with us today. Yeah, thank you very much for
00:02:53.900having me. I wanted to just kind of clarify also, the international repatriation is repatriation
00:03:00.680beyond NAGPRA, so the Native American Graves Protection Act of the 90s, you know, that was
00:03:06.320specific to the United States, and it's for returning ancestral remains, culturally significant
00:03:14.060items and protection of sacred places. And so my work kind of really transferred over very well
00:03:21.020to doing work for Utah Dinepikea as their new fellow, working to protect sacred lands. This0.63
00:03:27.840really is kind of overall connected in a really particular way. So there's lots of ways to talk
00:03:34.680about the history, the culture, the ecology, the place that we call sacred for a number of reasons.
00:03:41.880And I think there's a lot of discussion around different kinds of ways to define that. And there are Western ways and there are indigenous ways. And somewhere in between, we kind of have to figure out those ways to help inform each other and strengthen each other's perspectives and point of views. You know, that's what I find the most exciting about this work.
00:04:02.620gosh well thank you so much for dedicating yourself to this work as it feels so foundational
00:04:11.120and moving forward in a regenerative way and i want to say speaking with you was
00:04:17.680really in response to the recent and unlawful call by president trump to reduce bear's ears
00:04:25.000National Monument by 85%. This land, the Colorado Plateau of southeastern Utah, is a land of
00:04:34.560winding canyons and diverse intact ecology and culture and immense sacredness, which accompanied
00:04:42.000by the shrinking of Grand Escalante Staircase National Monument by 46%. This is the largest
00:04:48.280elimination of protected land in American history. So I want to start off by saying that in behalf of
00:04:54.840the entire team at For the Wild, and I'm sure all of our listeners as well, that we want to thank
00:05:00.920you, you and all the protectors of Bears Ears, and we stand with you and we will continue to do so
00:05:06.980no matter what it takes to keep this precious land protected. Angelo, I would love to ask you to
00:05:14.760begin by grounding this conversation in the land, the plants, the people, the creatures,
00:05:23.140the soil, the spirit that is Bears Ears. Is there a story or a memory of Bears Ears that
00:05:29.840sits in your heart to share with us? Well, first of all, I got to follow cultural protocol
00:05:37.300and I got to do this right because, you know, as a guest on your show, I am really a newcomer,
00:05:46.460a stranger, somebody who hasn't really met anybody there. So in the traditional way,
00:05:52.580we give our own introductions. So I say, myself, my clans, in my own language in Navajo,
00:06:01.120so I said, hello, my name's Angelo Baca. These are my clans. I'm from these lines of my people.
00:06:15.720They are like the basic components of who I am.
00:06:21.260Whenever I give my clan introduction like that, whenever most traditional Navajos give introductions like that, they are identifying the line of their people, their community, their matriarchal lines of family.
00:06:35.340And so my transparency, my accountability, my responsibility is primary to them, to my community, to my tribe.
00:06:43.600And then that's also another way of like making my identification for my surrounding Navajo people and for the rest of the world so they know exactly who I am.
00:06:57.700I come from this area, from San Juan County, from Bears Ears.
00:07:03.180My grandmother has stories that trace us all the way back to this place, and she's been very instrumental in the development of me as a person, learning the cultural ways, the language, the history, learning about ceremonies and prayer and practicing our traditional ways of spirituality.
00:07:26.740And, you know, Bears Ears has always been a significant cultural site for us.
00:07:30.920It was something I learned about as a child. Growing up here, I knew that it was a particularly powerful and special place. And it was never really at the forefront of any headlines back then, but it was always important to us.
00:07:46.540And so this comes from a place before any of this press, before the United States, before any settler colonial incursion into our territories.
00:07:58.160This was a very important and sacred place. It still is indigenous land and it always will be indigenous land.
00:08:04.280So for the most part, I really have a lot of respect for my elders, for the traditional people, for a lot of our leaders who took the initiative to do a lot of the groundwork, the cultural mapping, the documentation of stories, places, understanding where the harvesting sites are, where the hunting grounds are, where the ceremonial places are, where the sacred sites are.
00:08:33.800It was years and years of putting together and accumulating this data, which made its way into a formal proposal for protection of the original 1.9 million acres.
00:08:45.600So this has been a grassroots initiative started by Native people who really wanted to protect a very sacred landscape.
00:08:55.940And so me working to support them is a huge honor. It's a way for me to understand who I am, where I come from, and what I'm doing now. And it's very fulfilling work because it's something that, you know, it feels particularly spiritually inner strengthening.
00:09:18.680training but also it's working to utilize all the skills and education that I've been having
00:09:24.600you know up to this point so I feel like I've been working my whole life to do this work and
00:09:30.180you know it's a huge honor to work for my elders and leaders they're basically my professors you
00:09:35.880know they're my leaders my mentors and I have nothing but huge respect for them and I'm really
00:09:41.160glad that I could do this work with them oh my gosh Angelo I'm so glad that you are doing this
00:09:48.280work. As you were speaking about your elders and the communities who have mapped this area and all
00:09:55.780the work that went into protecting this land from the colonizers in the first place, you know, I
00:10:02.620wanted to ask, following Zinke's review and Trump's proclamation to reduce Bears Ears, what has been
00:10:09.560the feeling, the response within the communities who have worked so tirelessly to draft the proposal
00:10:48.860It's always going to be, you know, a cultural positioning of power in different respects.
00:10:56.780And you have that both in your community and outside in the public eye.
00:11:04.280And so there are different reports, you know, about like if this is beneficial or not or what is the impact going to be.
00:11:13.560And for me, I think the most convincing, determining factor is that my elders and my traditional leaders are the ones who come from that place and have fostered and developed these relationships in a positive, good way.
00:11:29.260and you know it's not about land property ownership you know about keeping people out
00:11:37.800it's actually quite the opposite it's about inclusion and coalition building and solidarity
00:11:44.620and partnership building it's about opening up and refreshing those relationships that used to be
00:11:53.300And the new ones that are coming now. So from families who never used to talk to each other, to tribes who used to fight each other, to relationships and governments that have been historically difficult, this has been a really beautiful and healing process to try to renew, you know, that kind of inclusion and solidarity and the healing.
00:12:20.820because we've always maintained that this monument is about healing.
00:12:27.060It's the development of trying to make people understand
00:12:32.300and have conversations and have these very deep, in-depth discussions
00:12:36.900down to the root, the source of what it is we're talking about.
00:12:41.660Not just the symptomatic surface topics of governance and jurisdictions
00:12:48.540and you know competing claims of land ownership those debates are valid but they're still
00:12:57.800on the top of what actually matters they're only just the outside of what we're talking about to
00:13:04.840the core which is respecting all of our relatives because people have made this discussion particularly
00:13:13.200about people whether they're native people or non-native people that are all these ideas of
00:13:20.580you know if this is a good idea or not but I very rarely hear the discussion about our other
00:13:28.360relatives the other than human beings you know the spirits of the land of the plants the animals
00:13:36.320the trees the rocks the rivers all the things that live out there that can be classified and
00:13:44.080not classified because there are spirits that live out there and there are ancient
00:13:48.580ancestral burial grounds and those places need protection and for too long they've had no
00:13:55.080protection from these other outside forces coming in so we can continue to do what we've been doing
00:14:02.240which hasn't worked very well, or we can do what we have been as native people doing for centuries
00:14:10.400before anybody got here, which was our own ways of stewardship management, taking care of the land
00:14:16.980and the plants and the animals. And so what we have to do a lot is kind of bring people up to
00:14:23.840speed between 200 and 500 plus years of how we do things. And it's very difficult when they
00:14:32.660already have closed off their mind to these conversations. So, you know, my invitation is
00:14:37.720always for them to civilly and peacefully have these discourses, these intellectual conversations
00:14:46.780to think on things and consider it and to understand that we are all tied to everything
00:14:55.060else. Everything is connected. And for Native people, we're very much plugged into the world
00:15:02.400and the universe in a different way than most folks are, especially because we've been into
00:15:07.240the landscape or the places that we live in for a very, very long time.
00:15:12.220And so you have to do these many types of filtering.
00:15:18.600If I'm talking to environmentalists or lawyers or conservationists or Mormons, like I got0.97
00:15:26.360to use different lenses and filters for that.0.79
00:15:29.420So even from a scientific perspective, we are the first scientists.
00:15:33.580We have accumulated long-term aggregated data about a place and its inhabitants.
00:15:40.400And we know the best way to manage that land. And for too long, we haven't been included in that process. And this is not just protection for this land, but it's the proposal of changing the entire game as we know it of conservation and preservation by including Indigenous voices at the table for land management planning processes.
00:16:01.400processes. Thank you so much for saying that indigenous peoples have been left out of that
00:16:10.580discussion about the best way to steward and conserve land is so, and has been so detrimental
00:16:17.800for so many years. And we're seeing the consequences of that. We're seeing it all around us driving
00:16:24.100through Turtle Island. There's really hardly places anymore where we don't see the consequences
00:16:30.880of not respecting traditional ecological knowledge if there was respect given to indigenous science
00:16:39.100what would conservation look like let's just say in bear's ear specifically and in the place that
00:16:45.120you know in your heart and your physical world right well this is you know sort of the unfortunate
00:16:53.780case of where we're at right now is because we're ready to implement the different ideas and plans,
00:17:02.060the proposals of our communities to do that very thing for better protection, for a different way
00:17:08.920of looking at it, for inclusion, a reorienting of both our communities and the public for protecting
00:17:16.540a landscape. But we never really got that chance, you know, from the very beginning,
00:17:21.320ever since the administration switched over, there's been hesitancy on the part of federal
00:17:27.540agencies. There has been meetings and people really developing these sort of contingencies
00:17:34.500for what can be happening next. But nothing really kind of got off the ground too much because
00:17:39.800it's so volatile this year politically and across different agencies that it's hard for anything to
00:17:48.260be sustained and it's really unfortunate because the losing of the monument or the reduction of it
00:17:55.240the changing of that monument and of Escalante and these spaces really are not just about
00:18:03.840having it reduced in the eyes of the government but it never really got you know to the point
00:18:11.180where we had the opportunity to show what we're about and what we're going to do and how we could
00:18:15.840do it. So there's a lot of intertribal interests about this landscape in which we could all
00:18:22.480share and prosper and trying to not just manage together this space, but to also have a new kind
00:18:31.000of database, something that would protect traditional knowledge in a stronger, more
00:18:35.900efficient and culturally relevant way. You know, something that could really be coming from our
00:18:42.220side, our perspective, our voices, and, you know, really have a different angle on the histories
00:18:49.160that have been written out there primarily by non-Native, settler, colonial, and especially
00:18:54.700around here, Mormon authors and historians. So I think there's a lot of potential here that got
00:19:01.520undercut, which is unfortunate because it's not just about that piece. I think people had a really
00:19:08.900good opportunity to learn about Native people because a lot of them don't know anything about
00:19:14.840Native people. We always have to pierce through several layers of ignorance because they don't
00:19:20.360know, first of all, that we're not all dead. We're actually very much alive and that we exist.
00:19:26.900And two, like how the trajectory of history has sort of put us in this position to be painted as
00:19:34.380adversarial when that has actually never been the case with this monument. You know, it's always
00:19:40.680been a process of inclusion. If anything, I think the Bears Ears National Monument really has
00:19:46.720made people aware of the other surrounding underlying issues. So there's plenty of
00:19:54.540discrimination, racism, some favoritism and, you know, different settler colonial systems and
00:20:02.480structures that leave us out, don't include us, don't have a voice at the table, and have like
00:20:09.820these really latent and overt forms of oppression. So for me, it's kind of just been this interesting
00:20:18.280progression, being a resident and living here. I even hesitate to say resident because that's
00:20:25.340identifying and buying into another system that isn't mine. We've been here for a long, long time.
00:20:31.580and so there's a difference between when people say oh my family's ranched here and they've put
00:20:39.800their homestead up here for generations I'm like well when you're saying generations you mean like
00:20:45.940a few right because you guys came in like the 1800s but when we say generations we mean like
00:20:52.900a few thousand at least you know and that goes way way deeper and way way farther back
00:21:01.020and so our route to this place and to what matters for us is conceptually a very different
00:21:09.620definition and I think there's a lot of confusion between what people are talking about and trying
00:21:17.160to clarify exactly what they mean when they're speaking about these things in these terms
00:21:21.700and it's a difficult conversation to have because you know western thought is very linear
00:21:27.400simple and direct and black and white for them you know there's like these very euro-american
00:21:35.060concepts that have been adopted into this american context method of practice and approach
00:21:42.620and indigenous thought is more cyclical everything is tied to everything else if anything you could
00:21:49.640say that it's complex systems analysis and that it's also accumulated data and it's very
00:21:57.100observational and we've seen what happens to a landscape over decades centuries eons and these
00:22:05.560two conversations have yet to really find a fruitful place but I think the place to do it now
00:22:10.980are in these conversations with conservationists and wildlife groups environmental organizations
00:22:18.860non-profits because even though they may have good intentions and they have done really good work
00:22:25.440I think too often they also leave out the indigenous voice they also leave out participation
00:22:31.760and input and they are very passionate and have conviction but they also need to work on
00:22:39.920establishing relationships with the native people of whatever lands they're trying to protect
00:22:45.700because that is always lacking and you know it's pretty clear from any kind of government
00:22:51.860organization to any political group and to any nonprofits, that that interaction has been very
00:22:59.180limited historically. And so we're trying to change that. And I think that's significant
00:23:04.880for the national monument that we've established here is, you know, a lot of those groups that
00:23:11.540want to partner with us, we urge them and we have established this kind of understanding that
00:23:18.160you guys don't get to speak for the tribes. We have our own elders and our own leaders
00:23:23.580who are directing which way we should go. And what we want you to do is to support them,
00:23:30.980is to back them up and to give them the time and the space and the resources and give them
00:23:38.560additional supplemental support to get what needs to be done because they know
00:23:43.680the best way to take care of these lands so it's a lot of give and take and it's really new we're
00:23:50.500making the road by walking it but you know from what I've seen it's been also a very positive
00:23:56.080uplifting and productive process something that we've needed to do for far too long anyway we're
00:24:02.720a little bit behind the curve so I'm just kind of happy that a lot of these groups are taking the
00:24:09.280time to put in that work right now because you know it will be better for everyone in the end
00:24:14.440i couldn't agree more and i feel that and i've talked about this a lot on the show
00:24:22.360with a number of different people that it's actually been so detrimental to conservation
00:24:29.420and environmental justice to basically be a white supremacist movement in a lot of senses
00:24:37.080It's been detrimental to the actual environment, the lands itself, the lands themselves.
00:24:43.900So I really couldn't agree more that this new paradigm is about giving respect to traditional ecological knowledge, indigenous leadership, and understanding a new way.
00:24:58.800and I loved how you said that this path is new because you're bushwhacking this path forward and
00:25:04.920getting into some of the complexities that you started to speak on. I was really blown away by
00:25:11.840tremendously complicated work coming from the Bears Ears Intertribal Coalition and Utah Danae
00:25:19.160to protect Bears Ears. So I would love if you could speak about the Intertribal Coalition
00:25:25.220and what it took to bring the proposal to Washington in 2016.
00:25:31.460Part of that story is in the documentary film that I made called Shosh Jot Bears Ears,
00:25:37.620which ironically was already the title of it a year and a half ago before Trump decided to
00:25:43.800culturally appropriate that for his own political ends. So it's really kind of a divide and conquer
00:25:49.800tactic is what he's doing right now because it's a coalition and one is not above the other and so
00:25:57.440what he's trying to do is make it seem like the Navajos have curried his favor and that we're
00:26:03.920getting the designation and the name of the Navajo term for it but that's not true at all he actually
00:26:10.240never consulted us never once sat down with us and asked us what he thought should be the name
00:26:15.740of the monument. So I want to put that out there, too, because I think a lot of people probably have
00:26:20.920their own ideas of why it's called what it's called. But we want to stand firm in saying that
00:26:26.420we're still a coalition, we're still together, and we're still working to protect the same landscape.
00:26:33.520But there's power in naming. Even though the power is trying to be used against us, we still
00:26:39.320understand that it doesn't matter what language it's in. In all the five tribe languages,
00:26:44.500is it still bears ears so for us that's really significant you know each time somebody says
00:26:52.100having the two buttes looking like ears they can see that it's called bears ears for a reason
00:27:00.260i maintain it goes deeper than that because you have to understand all of the languages
00:27:04.820from the different tribes had their own way of developing their own cultural nuances through
00:27:11.940the language. And in every one of those languages, it's called Bears Ears, from Athabascan,
00:27:26.500have the interaction or the development from other surrounding communities. They came up on their own.
00:27:33.340And even to them, it was called Bears Ears. So that suggests to me that the place had its own
00:27:39.840personality, its own power, its own gift, revealed itself in its own relationship to each group of
00:27:46.040these people. And it is the Bears Ears. It's not just a name.
00:27:50.640so the elders the elected leaders the group that went to dc you know is documenting all of their
00:28:12.960journey in this short documentary film to say how much work it was and how beautiful and fruitful
00:28:21.240that work for their communities was going, you know, to get a record and a sense of their journey,
00:28:29.200all the footwork running around D.C., trying to go to community to community, have meetings
00:28:34.260to talk to various governments, local, county, state, tribal, federal. It's a large undertaking.
00:28:42.960And, you know, they wouldn't have done that if they didn't need to, because, you know, as I stated before, there's such a large amount of discrimination and racism here in San Juan County and with the state of Utah, as we've seen with the treatment of Native peoples throughout this process of the monument reduction.
00:29:01.220that we actually had to just activate that nation-to-nation relationship that we have as tribal treaty nations to the federal government
00:29:13.120and sit down with the Obama administration and the former Secretary of the Interior's Hallie Jewell
00:29:19.680to propose this 1.9 million acre monument for the protection of the sacred space.
00:29:27.520and what we found was that they were more than willing to listen as a matter of fact they were
00:29:33.520very considerate and careful with what they wanted to do and how they were going to craft
00:29:41.440the language of the proclamation and if you read the proclamation you can kind of see even in
00:29:46.820its written form it's really such a beautiful essay it's inclusive of all the tribes it talks
00:29:53.300about the other than human beings that are there. It talks about the history and the culture and
00:30:00.780the unique ecological and delicate life that is existing there and why it's important culturally
00:30:07.620for Native people. And I think probably the most important section is that inclusion of
00:30:13.880the traditional knowledge aspect. It's not just about the traditional knowledge of taking care
00:30:19.440of the land. It's also of the material culture, the archaeological sites, the pottery, sandals,
00:30:26.620the grinding stones, arrowheads, like all of these things that have been looted and stolen for so
00:30:33.700long that needed protection. We're finally being included in as a real solid safeguard, because
00:30:41.280this is really the highly trafficked and disrespected taking of our ancestors, which is
00:30:49.580still alive and well, unfortunately. And that's where it really connects to the international
00:30:54.580repatriation because there are plenty of this material that's been stolen locally,
00:31:00.500nationally, and internationally, and it's still out there. So people have gotten in trouble for
00:31:07.140that right here in San Juan County. Dozens of people here in Blanding that were involved with
00:31:12.240that. You know, this is kind of just acknowledgement that we exist, that we've existed and that this is
00:31:19.980our place and we're here, we're still here and we're always going to be here. And I think that
00:31:23.960was important coming from the federal government, coming from the president, coming from former
00:31:30.600Secretary Sally Jewell, because it was a form of healing. It's still new for this government to
00:31:38.180figure out how to make things better and how to make things right. And so this isn't ultimately
00:31:43.780the best or optimal solution, but it was a start. And whereas we would have loved to get some kind
00:31:52.120of authoritative crafting of policy embedded into land management planning processes,
00:31:59.440we didn't get that in the proclamation. We're more of like an advisory or consultative body,
00:32:07.100but it's still the step in the right direction. It's one of the only pieces of legislation that
00:32:14.620include Native people the way that it does. And that's in part due to the wonderful leadership
00:32:21.200of our elders, of our elected officials, of the people who we deem community leaders here and
00:32:27.460have done all of that groundwork for years, for decades. And I think this is something that
00:32:32.880we've always tried to get attention towards, but only now has become such an issue with both public
00:32:40.560lands and national monuments and national parks being under threat for privatization, natural
00:32:48.460resource extraction, having people doing more and more activities that would disrupt and desecrate
00:32:56.780these very delicate areas. So I've always been an advocate of protecting these places far back as I
00:33:06.060can remember, because, you know, I grew up here and I saw it growing up. I saw a lot of the
00:33:11.540mistreatment of the people and the places and the materials. And, you know, I think something that
00:33:19.940folks they often forget is that these forms of violence often translate into overt forms of
00:33:28.620violence against people so whenever somebody goes down to bluff and goes around comb ridge and tries
00:33:37.440to shoot the rock art and the petroglyphs and the really delicate thousands of years old depictions
00:33:45.160of these sacred places and people and deities on the wall and they're doing it very intentionally
00:33:51.160they have to actually get a good position to do that and sit there and take shots at it
00:33:56.360that has never really happened before because those places are difficult to get to they're
00:34:01.740remote they're really difficult terrain to get to and people appear to be making an effort
00:34:08.400And it appears to be an effort to do that out of spite and hatred and, you know, frustration that Native people are becoming more assertive in their own management of lands, their own political goals, their own ideas about like their identity and how they should get their recognition and acknowledgement of their existence.
00:34:35.360Because a lot of history in the United States has happened in the taking of the West, the expansion in settler colonial goals of westward domination.
00:34:49.260It was due to the dispossession and the removal of Native people.0.94
00:34:53.480But the way to do that is to see them as less than human.0.82
00:34:59.180And what is the best, easiest way that you can do that?
00:35:01.780well you see them like things like objects like something that can be cut down and broken and
00:35:08.900shot you know that can be destroyed as a thing can be broken and that's what they're trying to do
00:35:16.580still and for me even though it's not really the same thing as like going into a community
00:35:22.580and gunning people down it might as well be because those depictions of ancestors of spirits
00:35:29.660of places and people those are our ancestors and they do have spirit they do have energy
00:35:35.440and it's an assault on us when they do that and what's to stop them from going the next step
00:35:43.820and objectifying native people in the same way you know if you can take a shot in the crosshairs
00:35:50.960of a rifle at our ancestors then what's going to stop them from doing that here now in this time
00:35:58.900but with people walking around in our community so this is a very tense and difficult time
00:36:05.440and I think that you can see that through the development of several lawsuits that are against
00:36:12.860the San Juan County right now and you know it's all these things like I was saying that we were
00:36:18.860coming up affiliated with the monument that actually existed before but in the end that's
00:36:25.060what we're really talking about, isn't it? We're trying to get to the source, the root of the
00:36:29.560problem. And that's what has to be taken care of. It's this, you know, the sickness, this historical
00:36:36.980trauma, this intergenerational trauma that has affected and impacts us to the current day.
00:36:44.700And we're not going to get anywhere unless we address that. We're not going to move forward
00:36:50.840in a meaningfully, positively productive way, unless we can get the acknowledgement that one,
00:36:58.280discrimination has happened, racism has happened, two, it's still happening, you know, and how can
00:37:04.240we talk about those kinds of things? Because in the larger scheme of things, this is one story
00:37:10.920of many, many stories. This is not Standing Rock. It's its own thing, but it's just like Standing
00:37:19.280Rock, in that it's still a struggle for indigenous land. It's still a struggle for protecting
00:37:23.880ancient sites, burial sites, ancestral lands. It's still something that is relevant to the
00:37:30.460American public, and they need to acknowledge our existence and help us in meaningfully
00:37:35.320solid allyship ways. And it's one of many other struggles for acknowledgement and existence and
00:37:44.380respect and for me I think what makes this so different is that the people here they've really
00:37:53.260done the groundwork and trying to go forward in a good way and it's hard it tests me you know
00:38:01.560you have to be patient you have to be kind and considerate and hear the people who are speaking
00:38:08.180whether you agree with them or not coalition building is hard partnerships are hard collaborations
00:38:15.300are so difficult it's some of the hardest work I've ever done it takes time takes energy it takes
00:38:24.140patience but it's meaningful and it's working and that's what we need to do and it's probably
00:38:31.420the hardest thing to do because it's the best thing that we can do and it's very very difficult
00:38:37.980to acknowledge these traumas, what we've done to each other, what's being done to us now,
00:38:44.660what has happened in the past. But it's very important to get to that root and find a better
00:38:51.000way to heal ourselves from the inside out. Angela, thank you. That was so deep and meaningful
00:39:00.260to hear and really horrific to hear about the violence against your ancestors. I had no idea
00:39:11.020that people were shooting at these sites, these sacred sites. That is so devastating. And when
00:39:21.240you spoke about what's going to stop these people from provoking violence against you and the people
00:39:28.000that are alive in these places and I think back to conversations I've had with Kandi Mossett who
00:39:37.080lives in North Dakota or Ariel Duranger another indigenous activist in the tar sands regions of
00:39:43.460Alberta and hearing about the man camps and the violence that extreme oil extraction brings
00:39:52.340when settlers come into native communities so I know that that is happening and globally not just
00:39:59.700in quote North America and it is so heartbreaking that the frustration and the disrespect and all
00:40:10.540of the wounds and the trauma that you were speaking of is being released in this way and that
00:40:17.360And luckily, all of the people you've been speaking about, your elders, the elders all
00:40:23.020over Turtle Island are coalition building and the grassroots organizations are coalition
00:40:28.540building and are speaking to people on the other side of the spectrum to find a way forward
00:40:35.920as difficult as it is, as exhausting and I'm sure frustrating at times as it is just the
00:40:42.800Utah politics and the divide that seems to permeate Utah and much of the West in regards
00:40:49.880to public land and the opposing argument, you know, these protective designations, the
00:40:56.060federal overreach that restrict autonomy and economy.
00:40:59.840And it's interesting because several million people visit Utah's national parks each year,
00:41:03.720which must contribute to the state's economy.
00:41:07.660And then I also was thinking about the legal case, the federal legal case.
00:41:11.780And I understand that there is a level of discretion in regards to the lawsuit recently filed in federal court.
00:41:18.300But I'm wondering if you could just help us or make us aware of what is unfolding, you know, who is involved.
00:41:25.440So whatever you could speak to about the federal case, and then also whatever you could speak to about the politics in Utah, I would really love to understand that a bit better.
00:41:36.700Sure. You know, I have always maintained that Native representation, self-representation, our own Indigenous voice in the media is historically always limited.
00:41:49.620And we've never really had a better time than now to actually put out our own things and, you know, have our own voices from our own side, our own perspective.
00:41:58.960which was one of the goals of the documentary was that they were going to tell their side and I was
00:42:06.120going to tell mine as well because you know my grandmother's in that film and I'm not hiding it
00:42:12.420I make no illusions like this is where I'm from and it's coming from this perspective you know
00:42:18.520and it's very important to us and here's why so when I go into that explanation really for me I'm
00:42:25.760talking about giving power to the need of perspective, giving the voice to our leaders
00:42:34.300and our elders. And, you know, I think that's something that in the media hasn't been represented
00:42:40.840very well. I would say about 75% of what's been put out there comes primarily from outsiders
00:42:47.160just looking in and not exactly knowing what the entire story is and that we've been left out of
00:42:53.780those reports. We've been left out of those documentaries and those films and those
00:42:58.600journalistic excursions. So we don't have really that much of a need of voice or representation
00:43:04.620in those. I'd say probably a quarter of what's been put out there now is that. They ask people
00:43:11.400from our coalition, they ask people from our leadership and our elders, and they take the
00:43:17.080time. They take the time to understand and ask questions and figure out what's really going on
00:43:51.160is really make sure as much as possible that we get the story out in a complete or a more complete
00:43:59.420way as much as we can have involvement in to get our voice represented well. We don't want to be
00:44:06.580misquoted. We don't want to be trivialized, tokenized, or otherwise used for political
00:44:12.880or media purposes. It's a very delicate time right now. We're doing really extremely hard work.
00:44:19.640there's a lot of travel there's a lot of planning a lot of meetings there's a real danger of just
00:44:25.620kind of losing what the focus is and then having our coalition folks getting burned out a lot but
00:44:33.060you know that's what's really cool about this is it's invigorating work and I really am there
00:44:40.960to supplement and help them out with the representations that they're putting out there
00:44:45.940to the public. And so for us to actually ask what is going on with them and what is happening on
00:44:53.500the ground, it's still fairly new. We're still trying to educate people in the community here
00:45:00.160in the state of Utah as well and out nationally and internationally about what's going on.
00:45:06.060And, you know, there's so many different ways to interpret that. And we bring them up to speed,
00:45:13.440first of all through the history like I've been saying with the development of the proposal and
00:45:18.600also the proclamation itself because there's a lot of great information contained in it and it's not
00:45:23.540very long and if you read it there's great inclusions of the tribes of the traditional
00:45:29.300ecological knowledge of the the laws involved in the history of the place but also there's more of
00:45:37.260the technical aspects about, you know, what's happening legally with the designation processes
00:45:43.420and now the proposed reduction by Trump, I think it's safe to say that most legal scholars agree
00:45:51.700that the president doesn't have authority to do what he's doing. It has to be made certified by
00:45:59.880Congress. It has to be passed by them and endorsed by them. And he can't unilaterally do the reduction
00:46:08.080or the shrinking or the annihilation of any monument because there isn't any provision for
00:46:16.180him to do that in the Antiquities Act of 1906. There is only authority for the president to
00:46:21.760designate. And so for him to do anything more or do anything else, he's going to need the backing
00:46:27.660of the entire Congress to do that. So we feel really confident that actually what he's doing
00:46:34.760is not legal in a court of law. It'll stand up to a challenge. But what he's doing right now
00:46:41.900is actually trying to make the Curtis bill happen. And the Curtis bill is actually probably the most
00:46:48.640dangerous aspect of what's happening now, because that would basically amend the law so that it
00:46:56.120could make what he's doing legal. So really what we were asking people to do in partnership and
00:47:02.240solidarity with all of our allies is to go against and kill the Curtis bill because they're trying to
00:47:08.920push it through. It's already got a subcommittee meeting. They're trying to do it quietly. They're
00:47:12.880trying to do it quickly. But I think the more people who know about it and can actually speak
00:47:17.780out against it are doing public lands a huge favor all over the place because that's going
00:47:25.980to give the president less power and authority legally to keep on encroaching on these lands.
00:47:32.940And I think that's something that is setting the precedent in this administration. You can see that
00:47:39.100how they snuck in drilling into the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge up in Alaska through the tax bill.
00:47:47.960And that received very little fanfare or attention because the parties are playing up the whole tax
00:47:54.400cut that people are getting money but you know the money doesn't come from nowhere somebody pays
00:47:59.660for it and you know indigenous people indigenous lands that are paying for it again we've had the0.53
00:48:06.160Gwich'in relatives come all the way to DC to try to protest this whole action and this this inclusion
00:48:12.320of the drilling of their lands in that bill and unfortunately that bill has passed so now we're0.52
00:48:19.220thinking about what does that mean well that seems to be kind of the the going rate for this
00:48:26.760administration they just are trying to tack on many of these little things that will accumulate
00:48:34.020into allowing them more opportunities to destroy and do exploratory ventures and natural resource
00:48:43.120exploration and come in and develop these places that have no business being developed
00:48:48.600they should be left alone the way that they are and there's good reason for that besides
00:48:54.200just having this idea about you know what people think about conservation and preservation and
00:49:01.460management you know it's time to ask the people who have been there the longest the indigenous
00:49:06.480people why that's so important and why it needs protection so that's where we're at right now
00:49:11.640we're all trying to focus on what it means to do an action in court to challenge the president on
00:49:19.520the legality of his actions. And it's interesting to see so many other allies and groups come out
00:49:27.720and also support that effort and also even file their own lawsuits. Yeah, it'll be interesting.
00:49:34.160You know, I mean, the legal part of it is only one part. And I submit to you that can't be the
00:49:40.900only focus you know that no matter what happens that a this is still native land it's still
00:49:47.640indigenous we're still here we're still gonna be here and we're still gonna you know defend this
00:49:54.100land and to the relationships that we've made the partnerships that we've made the collaboration
00:50:00.560that's in development in this process matters so much more than the immediate urgency of reacting
00:50:09.360to something that we don't all have as much control over as we would like. Because in the
00:50:16.980long-term scheme of things, we've been here long enough to know that there will always be people
00:50:22.640like this. There will always be people who want more, who get greedy, want to take something from
00:50:29.240somebody else, and that they're trying to come in and assert what they think is power. But it's not
00:50:35.800power. Power is the land. Power is the elements, the plants and the animals. It's nature that is
00:50:43.620larger than us and we could never ever be larger than it. We could never even have the illusion
00:50:48.920that we'd be in control of it ever. We're just a part of it. And so we have to go and reorient
00:50:57.380ourselves and shift our focus into feeling as complete as we can as human beings by making
00:51:09.240these good positive relationships going forward now because that's what we're going to have to
00:51:13.720teach the next generation this generation has chosen its path and we don't agree with it and
00:51:20.100in terms of the leadership but you know that's not to say that it will always be this way and
00:51:25.900generations are learning very fast what is happening before what's going on right now
00:51:30.380and how they could change it in the future so to me there's like there's light at the end of the
00:51:35.840tunnel it's not all doom and gloom but there's so much work that we have to do in the meantime
00:51:55.900I just loved what you said that this legal component is not the whole story and the
00:52:13.960relationships that are being built and the coalitions that are being supported.
00:52:18.260This is what's going to see us through generations to come.
00:52:22.260Trump is not going to be the last person who's going to try to steal lands and develop.
00:52:30.040And as climate continues to change and resources are even more sought after, this is something
00:52:40.840that we're going to be up against for years to come.
00:52:44.300And so the relationship building, the coalition building, supporting each other and learning0.74
00:52:50.560how to work through this trauma and wounding and getting out of the sick settler colonizer mindset
00:53:00.600for conservation and environmentalists. This is really the work that I think and agree with you
00:53:07.320that's going to see us through. It's just incredible to hear about the Curtis Act. I
00:53:12.400definitely want to stay on top of that and I think our audience should as well so that it's not
00:53:18.140something that's just brushed under the rug like the arctic national wildlife refuge which is so
00:53:24.600devastating because the gochin people have been standing for this land their land for so many
00:53:33.640years and there's so many different presidencies but standing together building these relationships
00:53:39.960and I guess it also just feels that these legal battles for the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge
00:53:48.700and for Bears Ears it is altering the course of American land conservation and the Antiquities
00:53:55.700Act and the protection of lands is so far beyond Bears Ears just to think that if we don't stand
00:54:04.380right now for Bears Ears, what the consequences could be beyond that with more lands that would
00:54:10.300be opened up to the assault of oil, gas, mining, logging, and privatization.
00:54:15.880And so it really feels that this story, the Bears Ears story, is fundamentally a story of
00:54:22.900indigenous sovereignty. Yes, that is another layer, I think, of education that must be achieved.
00:54:29.460There's quite a lot of evidence that we are not really included in conversations in multiple Western systems, education, law, economics, even especially here in Utah, religious institutions.
00:54:48.260We're not really given the space or time or the involvement, participation, and respect.
00:54:54.400That's the key thing, is the respect.1.00
00:54:56.100their respect and acknowledgement is not it's not prioritized by a lot of non-native people
00:55:01.820unfortunately and so we had to kind of catch people up really quickly and you know one of
00:55:08.080the stereotypes that they have about us is that they think that we're not in existence we don't
00:55:14.320have a community we don't have tribes we don't have treaties you know and the fact of the matter
00:55:19.900is like a treaty is is significant because it's right up there at the level of constitutional law
00:55:25.920And, you know, as one of the supreme laws of the land, it's very much an agreement that was made a long time ago in the service of recognizing this country as a nation by other nations.
00:55:45.180They needed a treaty to sign with other sovereign nations to be recognized by their older brothers and sisters out in Europe, you know, so they could be taken seriously.
00:55:56.720But we hold true still that those treaty agreements are binding.
00:56:02.020They still apply and they still need to be honored.
00:56:06.060Most, if not all, of those treaties have been broken.
00:56:08.760And that doesn't say a lot for the faith, the process of governance in this country.
00:56:13.360For us, we're trying to do what's right. We're trying to exhaust every single available option for doing the right thing, even though we know that it's difficult because historically, what do we have to believe in?
00:56:29.740And governance-wise, the data shows us that this country won't honor agreements with Native people.1.00
00:56:38.540And, you know, that apparently still seems to be the case.1.00
00:56:42.540And we're trying very hard to just do the right thing and try to get people, the citizens of this country, to be on board with us to do the right thing.
00:56:52.920Because they have way more power than they think they do.
00:56:55.780They just have to wake up and start activating that power.
00:56:59.740That's what we did as an intertribal coalition. We're figuring out the direction of all these discussions that we're having about the land, and we're still being disrespected. We're still being marginalized. Our voices were rendered invisible, and they were being rude and disrespectful and not acknowledging them.
00:57:22.800And so that's when they had to go and take it up to the next level and go right to the administration to activate that nation to nation treaty relationship and assert their tribal sovereignty.
00:57:35.940So I'm trying to communicate that to every single person that you have power, albeit it may be limited in certain ways, but you have way more power than you think you do.
00:57:48.680You can use your own voice. You can speak out against your disapproval of these tactics of your government, of your leadership. That's what you have as an American citizen. It's a right.
00:58:03.880and it wasn't just something that was born out of these high ideals like those are reified
00:58:11.360and evoked every single day because you still have people who are practicing those justice
00:58:19.760ideals in these different organizations as well as like out in the military like for us
00:58:24.820we have per capita the most veterans of native veterans in the united states military and at
00:58:33.560first glance, that might seem contradictory because you're like, why would you be a soldier
00:58:37.960in a military that has historically been genocidal in its campaigns against native people? But you
00:58:44.600have to also realize that the ideal is to protect the land, to protect the nation, to protect our
00:58:52.740people, our home. This is our home. America, the United States, like this whole idea preceding that
00:59:03.080this is our home and we'll protect it. And I think that was most powerfully expressed
00:59:09.340at Standing Rock when we had our own native veterans come out and they were there in solidarity
00:59:16.240with us because they served this country. They put their lives on the line and they're still
00:59:22.240doing it. They're still warriors. They're still protectors for our places. And I think this is
00:59:29.180something that while we get the motivation to be protective and proactive and have action directly
00:59:38.680we also understand that Standing Rock itself became somewhat of a more adversarial confrontational
00:59:48.260even warlike zone people were clashing and somebody got hurt they lost an arm there like
00:59:56.280blood was shed you know people were hurt there and we don't want that for the Bears Ears landscape
01:00:02.960it's a sacred place of healing and that's something that we have to keep intact
01:00:07.200and so we don't really want a lot of people to come in and occupy and encamp here we understand
01:00:15.040and we're grateful for the support but the elders the traditional leaders the elected
01:00:23.260leadership have all expressed especially from the coalition that they welcome you know support
01:00:30.980but in the ways that they deem the most necessary and that right now is as I said before
01:00:38.880trying legislatively to kill the Curtis bill or the Curtis act and to try to minimize mitigate
01:00:48.260the larger implications for other sacred lands, indigenous lands that will be under attack
01:00:55.060if we don't pay attention to what's happening politically right now in the landscape in the
01:01:01.360country. So I understand that need to want to defend and protect our places, but it's not the
01:01:10.380right time and it's not the right place. And we have to learn from each single one of these
01:01:16.280movements and what they have to offer us and that goes for both sides that goes for you know the
01:01:24.180state and the federal governments and for the protectors of land and water how can we learn
01:01:30.840from last time to do better this time what is it that we could figure out through our processes
01:01:38.160our protocols our respect our acknowledgement the proper way to do things and to do them better
01:01:45.360Yes, learning, learning from these challenges and experiences that we're in together. And thank you for speaking of the power of the citizen in this country that we do have power and being able to be united.
01:02:05.740we are more powerful to get behind the indigenous leaders of these lands and heed what is actually
01:02:14.580wanted for support although Standing Rock was potent and just incredible all the connections
01:02:22.140and beauty that came out of that particular movement that that is not the Bears Ears movement
01:02:29.100that this is a healing place like you've said just thinking about the elders of Bears Ears I
01:02:35.720I think about your grandmother, who you've spoke about a few times and who is featured in your documentary, Into America, The Ancestor's Land.
01:02:44.580And in your documentary, she recounts being pushed out of her ancestral home by oil development, uranium mining, and Mormon settlers.
01:02:54.200And I'm curious, what do you think your grandmother would want us to know about Bears Ears?
01:03:00.060I don't know. I mean, it's a good question.
01:03:02.020She left us last year in November, and she never got to see the monument designated.
01:03:08.580So she worked very hard with me and everything that you see on the films Into America, the Bears Ears film.
01:03:19.680That's years of her talking with me, telling me stories, interacting with me, feeling comfortable enough to be on camera because she never liked to be on camera.
01:03:30.420and it was her choice you know i never pressured her to do it i always just asked her a lot about
01:03:37.320how it was important and what it meant and uh it's always hard to watch that movie because
01:03:43.920you know i miss her and uh she taught me a lot and i think she's still teaching us
01:03:55.140You know, that film is literally going all over the world and is telling people the story.
01:04:04.340And so I just try to honor her memory by doing this work.
01:04:11.360I try to think about the things that she would want to try to protect, keep safe, keep in a good way.
01:04:25.140For her, it's like, it's all connected, you know, it's not just the Bears Ears landscape itself, but all the way down into the rest of the county where it was being drilled, poisoned, you know, the oil and the mining and all these places where natural resource extracting is slowly killing us.
01:04:46.920so i think she's really still teaching a lot of people you know it's
01:04:55.540it's been a difficult year for people especially my family but i think that
01:05:04.120she's also really instrumental in this movement we tried a lot to get people to do the right
01:05:13.140thing to understand what's happening here we wondered for years if anybody was listening to
01:05:20.660us you know we were trying very much to educate people and to get them motivated inspired and
01:05:29.900trying to get them to do something just do something you know we're doing the best that
01:05:35.560we can with whatever that we can and you know she told her story she tells her story still
01:05:42.360I tell stories too with my camera. The camera is a very powerful tool. It reaches a lot of people.
01:05:52.780And there's a lot of impact and influence that is being made, you know, some movement that's
01:05:59.740happening. It's a shifting of historically what's been going on here. It's a little bit tough
01:06:08.920because sometimes it feels like you take a step forward and a couple steps back but something
01:06:14.880changed and something's going to be different now like even just this last week the county got
01:06:22.800ordered to redistrict here and fix the gerrymandered boundaries that favored the
01:06:32.140non-native people here in San Juan County and now we actually have it redistricted so that
01:06:38.860it's more distributed equitably and not along racial lines in favor of the group that has been
01:06:46.280dominating the political landscape forever like it has not changed but it's going to change now
01:06:53.220and I wish she could be here for that to understand like stuff's happening it's changing
01:07:00.760like the things that we're doing hopefully will make things better and I'm prepared for that I'm
01:07:07.080prepared to have these hard conversations with people who should be having them you know with us
01:07:14.740talking about all these different levels of native involvement that need to happen
01:07:20.680it's really tough it challenges everybody and I just feel really lucky and really blessed to
01:07:27.200be doing this work I do miss my grandmother and I wish she was here but I feel really lucky I had
01:07:34.160time with her and that she let me share her story with other people I'm always grateful for that
01:07:41.840and I always know exactly what I'm doing in the morning and I get up I feel like this is what I'm
01:07:49.580supposed to do you know and this is very good meaningful fulfilling work and I feel optimistic
01:07:56.960about it as i know it's not just me it's a lot of our other elders our other you know how we say
01:08:04.840like in our relation uh our chase and our our nollies our grandmas you know like we use these
01:08:13.140kinship terms with each other we identify each other again by that clan name like oh they're
01:08:18.340identified because we hold a same clan line and here's how we're related this is how i address
01:08:24.080you you're my grandfather or you're my uncle or you're my brother or my sister or my cousin
01:08:30.040my grandma you know and that's originally how we established our social relations our kinship and
01:08:38.040it's it's making us return to that and we have to shift decolonize our minds and think about
01:08:45.080how did we do this before when everyone was taken care of and everyone didn't have to worry
01:08:52.760because we had our community and we had our place that we took care of so it's it's a challenging
01:08:59.460work and we just have to hold both and integrate western and traditional knowledge together
01:09:05.960so we can all find a way forward yes i think it's so incredible hearing you speak about your
01:09:14.820grandmother and that relationship that deep respect and love and connection with our
01:09:24.780family with our human family and how she opened up to the camera and so generously
01:09:34.960shared her story so that others could learn and be awakened, and how much you are guided by her.
01:09:47.720I'm sure it's sparking a lot of emotions in the people who are listening,
01:09:54.140this reawakening of respect for our elders. I'm just, again, thinking back to your documentary,
01:10:00.980and I'm wondering if you would feel comfortable sharing a short story from your grandmother that
01:10:07.600she shared. Yeah there's so much more in the film that wasn't really included because I was trying
01:10:13.840to make it a short so there's plenty of different stories and things there that you know she
01:10:20.760contributed to as well as a great many other people and I could only take parts and portions
01:10:26.980of those things. But you know, something that stands out to me is she took me out when I was
01:10:33.220a kid to that area in Comb Ridge. And we looked at all these plants and she would tell me what
01:10:39.680these plants were for. She'd be like, this one is for when the sheep are sick, they can eat this
01:10:46.120and it makes them feel better. Or here's some tea for when you're not feeling well, or, you know,
01:10:51.840here's something that is healthy for you and watch out for this one. You don't want to eat this one
01:10:56.680looks like this. And, you know, I didn't know at the time how valuable that information was. I was
01:11:01.840still a kid, but there's like so much deep ethnobotanical scientific knowledge that's
01:11:09.480embedded in the traditional knowledge that we have. And she was teaching me a lot of that. And
01:11:14.780I wish I had paid more attention. You know, I wish I had done more and spent more time. I wish that
01:11:21.820that was my job and that was all I did. That was all I could do. And I have these struggles about
01:11:29.580getting my education and going to work and doing these things that takes me away from here.
01:11:35.660And for me, I didn't have as much time that I would have liked with my grandfather. You know,
01:11:42.060he was gone when I was a kid. Although the few times I did spend with him, he took me out to
01:11:49.620Bears Ears. He took me out there and, you know, he showed me that it was a sacred place and he
01:11:55.240showed me very special ceremonial places there. For me, that's always been a safe place as it has
01:12:04.360been historically. You know, we've always gone there to really get away from the marauders or
01:12:10.780invaders or military roundups that people would try to do to native folks and they knew that land
01:12:19.680you know they knew it well they traveled so much my grandfather my grandmother were all over the
01:12:26.180place they would go everywhere and they just you know knew these places like the back of their hand
01:12:32.900i can remember even just going on a road in bear's ears and grandmother would tell me and remember
01:12:39.280she doesn't speak any English at all. It's all Navajo. And she's like, watch out around this0.90
01:12:43.840corner. Be careful. Slow down. There are usually a lot of deer right here. As soon as I turn that
01:12:48.600corner, there's like 11 deer in a line going across the road. Like, how do you know that?
01:12:56.100You know? And it's because she knows the place and she knows the animals and the habitats and
01:13:04.380where they live and where they go where they graze and travel and it's like that's what I mean is
01:13:11.500that relationship to the place and knowing what it takes to take care of it you know she didn't say
01:13:19.420get out of the truck and go take one of them you know she's just like be careful there's a lot of
01:13:24.280them right here they usually come out you know and I respect immensely the knowledge that the elders
01:13:31.220hold in the traditional folks who have access to these wells and depths of accumulated wisdom.
01:13:43.400And I'm just really honored that they are able to share that with us now. I think it's lost on
01:13:49.020people how special that is. It's not easy. Nobody wants to like just hand over their stuff to you.
01:13:57.020They don't know you, but they're trusting you, the people, the public, that you can do better than the ones before you did, that you can be a steward of this land too, that you can also put in your time and your effort and your work, and that you can also be responsible and accountable for the landscape that you have benefited on for generations.
01:14:22.560so I think that's that's the challenge you know we're inclusive but it comes with
01:14:30.780responsibility comes with accountability it comes with listening and learning and trying to do
01:14:38.160better than the ones before you did and I think that's what the monument for me means
01:14:45.720because there's no difference between that and what I am every single day,
01:14:54.020I'll go out there, and I remember where she took me to go look at those plants.
01:14:57.600I remember where the crossing of the deer are.
01:15:01.500I remember where we harvested medicine that my grandfather favored.
01:15:06.180I remember the stories of where my uncles hunted up on bear's ears.
01:15:10.060those are blessings and those are shared blessings but they got to be taken care of
01:15:18.280just like anything else if you don't take care of your gifts they have a danger of going away
01:15:25.360so for me you know I'm trying to tell people about Bears Ears on every level conceivable that I can
01:15:35.440try to attempt to do legally, historically, culturally, environmentally. What is it? What
01:15:44.020is it that helps you understand what we're trying to do here? What's your language? Because I can
01:15:49.160try to speak that dialect. I'm trying very much to see how people can be reached and listen
01:15:59.400and understand what we're doing and that you know everybody's in this together we've all
01:16:06.280got accountability here we've all got responsibility here and we all have to move forward together
01:16:11.900oh my goodness your words your heart you are so clear and I feel the earth in you and your
01:16:24.940grandmother, although I am many, many miles away. It translates even through this strange
01:16:32.880technology that we're communicating through right now. And it's been so incredible speaking with you
01:16:39.520and emotionally opening to hear your love and your deep connection. I'm so grateful for you.
01:16:51.740And I guess my last question, although we have touched on it, is I'm sure many people who have now listened to our conversation and who have been privy to parts of what have been going on on Bears Ears are eager to get involved, to help.
01:17:13.540you know are probably even wondering does the protection of Bears Ears stay in place until
01:17:20.220the lawsuit is finished or will the BLM be able to auction leases in 2018 and what are some of
01:17:28.100the next steps and yes there's the Curtis Act and you know there's things that we've touched on but
01:17:34.080But if there's just some parting notes, clarifying notes for those of us listening of what we can do, what advice and guidance can you share with us as citizens of this country that we can do to stand in integrity and with respect to the leaders, the elders, the indigenous peoples of this land?
01:18:02.140I think it's a great question. And it's, it's a question that people have whenever they feel like, you know, they're the most powerless. And I think that's a good time for people to reflect just exactly who they are, where they come from, what they do, what their values are, what they want for the future.
01:18:25.120because you know you know we're trying to think of it in an indigenous way where everything is
01:18:31.900connected we're not just thinking about ourselves we're thinking about our children and their
01:18:35.780children and their children's children and so forth and so on that kind of seven generations
01:18:40.680thinking right so for us it's really trying to understand how to best communicate these concepts
01:18:51.140and have people take the right forms of action that they're capable of doing, that they're able
01:18:57.440to do. Basically, it's always a struggle for us to meet them where they're at, because everybody's
01:19:04.500at a certain different place, right? And we're doing a lot of catch-up for people. And so,
01:19:11.120you know, it depends on which people we're talking about or talking to. So, like, if we
01:19:16.160were talking to like you know environmentalist folks or conservation people it's like you guys
01:19:23.200are doing good work we like that but please let the tribes lead listen to them consult with them
01:19:29.020ask them don't appropriate their image or their words or come in and try to do something in their
01:19:37.120name if they don't feel like that's accurate or respectful or you know giving them the proper
01:19:44.760voice at the table, which, you know, people sometimes do that wittingly or unwittingly
01:20:11.580Whatever one it is that you want to do, you can do it.
01:20:14.240now's the time you know the future of this country is in everybody's hands and I think
01:20:23.360for us we're really cognizant that we're trying our best as native communities we're wearing
01:20:32.380several hats there's not just the one of us that has like one position and that's all we do it's
01:20:37.600like, no, we're trying to keep our nations running. We are at capacity. We're always
01:20:44.580at max speed, max capacity, or we don't have as much ability to stretch our work and our time
01:20:54.040and our dollars we would like. And so you have that power individually and collectively to be
01:21:03.120able to utilize what you do have if you have time you can volunteer at one of these places you can
01:21:09.240volunteer for you know one of the coalition's organizations or any of their partners that
01:21:15.060we're allied with or if you have effort and energy you can you know try to utilize a group or space
01:21:25.900or some kind of organizing effort that will make people aware of what's happening to our lands and
01:21:31.520what's happening politically on the landscape and try to curb something like the curtis bill or
01:21:37.040you know kill the the act and i think there's lots of ways that we haven't really taken the
01:21:44.340time to reflect how much as american citizens we have power we have resources energy time
01:21:53.500social status credentials education that's a lot more than most people in the world have
01:22:00.820so use it if you feel that strongly about it use it but use it in a good way because
01:22:07.680in the end really the thing that we have to keep intact is our humanity you know because if we
01:22:16.340lose that then we become just like the aggressors we become just like the predators we become just
01:22:22.200like the greedy ones who want to take and not give anything back so it's all about the basics
01:22:29.120basic human beings right figuring out how to learn how to share how to be respectful to listen
01:22:36.320all very simple stuff but very very difficult to do in practice and we'll be challenged to do it
01:22:43.120again and again with different kinds of people and so my challenge is for whoever you are that1.00
01:22:50.060feel strongly about these things now's the time to do that with the indigenous people wherever you
01:22:56.180are wherever you live in this country there's indigenous people you might think they're not
01:23:02.980you may think they're all gone but they're out there we're alive we're here and you know we're
01:23:10.440waiting to have these conversations with you so i think on a practical level that's what people can
01:23:16.620do both politically both community building and allyship trying to learn some good protocols
01:23:25.340about how to build these partnerships and do things in a good and powerful way.
01:23:31.340Thank you so, so, so much, Angela. This has been such a gift of a conversation for me and for all
01:23:41.020of those who will listen to this. I just have so much gratitude for you and everything that you've
01:23:47.460said, and even the tone of your voice is so true. And there's so much love and depth to
01:23:57.840what you shared with us. And I feel honored to have spent this time with you. I feel
01:24:07.260so comforted knowing that you are alive and you are committed and dedicated to the work
01:24:17.100and the way in which you do the work you do so thank you thank you very much and thanks for
01:24:23.300having me here and i appreciate you know all the listeners that want to learn and do something
01:24:28.420well so i i want them to do that this next year you know change the world for the better
01:24:47.100The jaybird's car, my mind grows dry and thirsty, as the memories linger, driftin' on the wind, through the mountains like a river, sweet spirit of fire.
01:25:04.480The music featured in this episode was by Aldine Ketchum, who's the Ute Mountain Ute spiritual leader.
01:25:13.780Our theme music is Bow with Silence Returns and Like a River by Kate Wolfe.
01:25:19.300I'd like to thank our producers, Reach Out and March Young, our research director, Madison Magulski, and our media director, Molly Lee Bove.
01:25:28.560I'm Ayanna Young. Thank you for tuning in.