00:01:09.920Someone to lean on and someone to trust
00:01:14.560Who needs your assistance and finds your disguise?
00:01:28.460Welcome to For the Wild podcast. I'm Ayanna Young.
00:01:32.600Today we will join Bill McKibben from Vermont to discuss the news from the front line of climate chaos,
00:01:38.500as well as the many facets of the resistance.
00:01:41.600Bill McKibben is an author and environmentalist who in 2014 was awarded the Right Livelihood Prize, sometimes called the Alternative Nobel.
00:01:51.160His 1989 book, The End of Nature, is regarded as the first book for a general audience about climate change, and has appeared in 24 languages.
00:02:00.600He's gone on to write a dozen more books.
00:02:03.120He's the founder of 350.org, the first planet-wide grassroots climate change movement,
00:02:08.140which has organized 20,000 rallies around the world in every country save North Korea,
00:02:13.720spearheaded the resistance of the Keystone Pipeline, and launched the fast-growing fossil
00:02:18.040fuel divestment movement. The Schumann Distinguished Scholar in Environmental Studies
00:02:23.080at Middlebury College and a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences,
00:02:27.860He was the 2013 winner of the Gandhi Prize and the Thomas Merton Prize, and holds honorary degrees from 18 colleges and universities.
00:02:38.080Foreign policy named him to the inaugural list of the world's 100 most important global thinkers, and the Boston Globe said he was probably America's most important environmentalist.
00:02:48.080A former staff writer for The New Yorker, he writes frequently for a wide variety of publications around the world, including the New York Review of Books, National Geographic, and Rolling Stone.
00:03:00.080He lives in the mountains above Lake Champlain with his wife, the writer Sue Halpern, where he spends as much time as possible outdoors.
00:03:08.440In 2014, biologists honored him by naming a new species of woodland gnat in his honor.
00:03:14.360Well, thank you so much, Phil, for joining us today.
00:03:17.280This is truly an honor to speak with you, and we're all really excited.
00:03:22.660What a pleasure for me to get to join you, Anna.
00:04:06.980I live in that world between being able to look honesty directly in the face and the despair that comes with that at times and what keeps me going is the love of this earth and being able to just be grateful for the immense wonder that is this life.
00:04:30.200I've heard you and other campaigners, especially Clayton Thomas Mueller, who we've had on the show from 350.org, say that continuing operations in the tar sands is, quote, game over for the climate as civilization depends on it.
00:04:44.620This statement seems to be a reflection of the many tipping points of Earth's complex climate systems that we are soon to breach, if we haven't already.
00:04:53.300You know, the melting of the Arctic sea ice and the Antarctic and Greenland ice sheets, exceeding 400 parts per million CO2 in the atmosphere, the rise in global average temperature, ocean acidification.
00:05:06.700Could you share with us your understanding of what tipping points would appear to be unavoidable at this point?
00:05:14.160I've had a lot of time, of course, to think about this because I wrote the first book about climate change for a general audience back in 1989, which is almost 30 years ago.
00:05:25.380And at the time, we knew we were in trouble.
00:05:28.120We were pretty clear the planet was going to be heating up just because that's what happens when you pour CO2 into the air.
00:05:33.820But we didn't know how fast and we didn't know quite how hard it would pinch.
00:05:38.620And the story of the intervening 30 years is it happened really fast and it pinched really hard.
00:05:44.160So some things happened on a truly huge scale. There's half as much or less sea ice in the summer Arctic than there was 30 years ago. That's a huge change on one of the two or three biggest physical features on our planet.
00:06:00.460The oceans are about 30% more acidic, and that's a huge problem and tipping point of its own.
00:06:08.540In many places in the Indian and Pacific Oceans, in the last few years, we've had these massive bleaching events on coral reefs that have killed off huge percentages of that ecosystem.
00:06:21.440The Great Barrier Reef, for instance, off Australia is the largest living structure on the planet, but it's about half as living as it was 18 months ago.
00:06:30.460And I think there's really no one at this point who thinks we can refreeze the Arctic or probably save most tropical coral reefs.
00:06:41.060Those ecosystems seem to be headed for extinction in the course of this century, though we will work very hard to try and keep it from happening.
00:06:50.400And there are plenty of other kind of tipping points on the way.
00:06:53.140we seem to have begun the fairly inexorable melt of ice in the antarctic at least a fair amount of
00:07:01.360sea level rise is now baked into the future no matter what we do at this point i guess a way to
00:07:07.640say it is we're no longer trying to stop global warming that's not on the menu of options we're
00:07:14.100trying to keep it from getting any worse than it has to get and that's a enormously important task
00:07:19.820because there's all the difference in the world between a planet that warms two degrees Celsius,
00:07:24.860that will be very, very difficult and miserable. And a planet that warms three degrees or God
00:07:31.780forbid, four degrees Celsius, that'll be impossible. We won't survive as civilizations
00:07:36.500with that kind of warming. So the work that we do now is absolutely crucial. And it has to be
00:07:43.060done fast. The things that happen in the next five, 10 years will tell over the course of tens
00:07:50.520of thousands of years. I don't think any of us truly understand what a deep time really feels
00:07:57.100like when we think the next five or 10 years could dictate the survival of human civilization,
00:08:03.220as you just said. Do you mean civilization as we know it? Or do you think that if it warms three,
00:08:09.020four degrees, that the human species itself will go extinct?
00:08:14.340No, humans are very adaptable, and some humans will survive, and we will figure out
00:08:18.840things and so on. But the civilizations we built are very vulnerable. They're in particular places,
00:08:24.860they depend on particular crops, and they're already under great stress. I mean, look what
00:08:30.500happens in a place like Syria, when you have five years of drought in the first decade of this
00:08:36.740new century. That was enough to force a million or more farmers off their farms and with their
00:08:42.940families into already overcrowded Syrian cities. And that was enough, the academics tell us, to
00:08:48.600help kick off this revolt that now has turned the Middle East upside down, sent huge waves of1.00
00:08:58.240refugees into Western Europe, turning their politics upside down, affecting even the politics0.97
00:09:04.320of the United States and the rise of nativism here. That's in one pretty small corner of the0.94
00:09:10.440world, one anomalous drought. As those things happen over and over and over again, the effects
00:09:16.360will be large. There's just no getting around it. I want to bring up potentially a radical
00:09:23.060thought about protecting civilization. Of course, part of me here is you speak about the war in
00:09:30.780Syria and the drought and how devastating to millions of innocent people, innocent species
00:09:37.300affected by these types of what you said, anomalies. But do we really want to protect
00:09:44.560this civilization that has wrought so much havoc on earth in so many ways? Is it possible that
00:09:53.640civilization collapsing in the way it is now would actually be beneficial to not just
00:10:02.440other creatures and species, but humans as well. Well, you know, I suppose you could make that
00:10:08.800argument. But I guess I'd say, A, I don't think most humans are really implicated in what's going
00:10:14.680on. I mean, most humans aren't putting much carbon in the atmosphere at all. And even those Western
00:10:20.780humans who are putting quite a bit in are not choosing really to pollute in that way. They'd
00:10:27.620all be just as happy running things off solar energy or wind power or whatever else. It's a
00:10:33.640relative handful of fossil fuel industries and oil billionaires and things who have used their
00:10:40.340political clout to keep us from changing in any significant way. And it seems a little much to
00:10:45.880ask that we sacrifice our human species because these guys are jerks similarly it seems you know0.99
00:10:53.760if we allow climate change to get completely out of control we're going to take down not just a lot0.99
00:11:00.660of human civilizations we're also going to do a number on a great percentage of the rest of the
00:11:06.740dna on this planet the other creatures the flora and fauna of the late plestocene are our brothers
00:11:13.640and sisters, too, and it seems wrong to take them down as well. So I think it's the important
00:11:19.160moral challenge of our time to figure out how to keep that from happening.
00:11:23.220Yes, I absolutely agree that it is the great challenge of our time to protect and conserve
00:11:29.240this incredible gift of biodiversity and thriving ecosystems. I just always take a moment to
00:11:38.900ask myself about this protection of civilization you know not to say I'm against renewables I
00:11:46.680have solar panels I live off the grid and I also saw how many resources went into just this simple
00:11:54.260200 square foot cabin and a simple solar array and how it continues this consumptive lifestyle
00:12:01.740and I and I really try to sit with that is it all about renewables or is it also about
00:12:07.600stripping ourselves down and humbling ourselves. And I don't mean everybody, like you said,
00:12:13.780so many people around the world are not even contributing to the carbon emissions that we're
00:12:18.800talking about, these large, large scale, you know, fossil fuel burning industries. But a lot of us
00:12:23.840in, say, the global north, or in, you know, these wealthy developed worlds, I question a lot of our
00:12:31.040consumptive nature. Yeah, I think one of the nice things about renewable energy is that it
00:12:36.140tends to sort of move you in that direction anyway people become more conscious of the fact that
00:12:41.500their energy comes from say the sun and sometimes it's up and sometimes it's down and
00:12:47.180you know it sort of leads to somewhat more consciousness of conservation and living a
00:12:54.620little more lightly and as that happens i think people often find that that's kind of enjoyable
00:12:59.400anyway perhaps the world that we've imagined as the best of all possible worlds with the super
00:13:05.560high consumer culture we live in really isn't managing to make us all that incredibly happy.
00:13:10.760So maybe we can manage with something a little different. And those things all seem to go a
00:13:16.160little bit hand in hand. I don't think that humans need to be particularly hang dog about it all,
00:13:21.820though. There's a great deal of pleasure and joy and connection and community and all of that.
00:13:28.180It's completely possible. And we don't need to feel guilty for every last kilowatt of energy
00:13:34.580that we use. I mean, the sun pumps out an immense amount of it every hour of every day. And it
00:13:40.340doesn't mind if we soak some of it up and make use of it. It is always, I think, important to
00:13:48.120remember to not get trapped in the guilt. We are consumers at even our basic level. So it's just
00:13:57.140an intense time. And I like to welcome different thoughts. I was reading another article that you
00:14:03.660had recently wrote in Rolling Stone. And I want to quote you saying, the surreal keeps becoming
00:14:10.500the commonplace. The planet's greenhouse gas emissions are still rising, though more slowly.
00:14:16.320Let's say we manage to top out by 2020. In that case, to meet the planet's goal of holding
00:14:21.720temperature increases under two degrees Celsius, we have to cut emissions 4.6% annually till they
00:14:28.720go to zero. If we wait till 2025, we have to cut them 7% annually. If we wait until 2030,
00:14:35.460it's not even worth putting on the chart. I have to sometimes restrain myself from pointing out
00:14:41.400how easy it would have been if we'd acted back in the late 1980s. It would have been much easier
00:14:48.860then, but we didn't. And so now we face a steeper challenge and it gets steeper each year. We don't
00:14:54.080act. And that's the thing that worries me about Trump years overall. Not that he'll forever keep
00:15:00.000us from doing the right thing. It's just that by the time we get around to doing the right thing,
00:15:03.740if we delay a lot longer, it's exponentially harder. Look, everybody knows that in their
00:15:09.160own lives. It's always the things that we procrastinate on a delay with that end up,
00:15:13.360you know, biting us. That's why, to me, moving fast now is crucial. We're doing a big push at
00:15:20.680350.org over this year that we're calling fossil free fast because speed is the crucial variable
00:15:28.300and the one that we tend to forget. This is not a issue where we have endless time.
00:15:50.680And elders' eyes into the wolves did run
00:18:51.980And I think we're going to win this fight.
00:18:53.860The only worry I have is that, as I've said, is that we'll win it too late.
00:18:57.600So it's good to see people stepping up right now.
00:19:00.260We can't get anything done in Washington for the moment, obviously, because of Mr. Trump.
00:19:03.740So it's that much more incumbent on cities and states to provide the lead.
00:19:10.480So, right, taking it out of the hands of the federal government and moving it to more of a state level, community level divestment and action oriented campaigns.
00:19:27.140Yes, but it has to be coordinated in some way or another because we can't solve this sort of one house at a time, one block at a time. That's why things that go after the financial community and their support for the fossil fuel industry are so important right now.
00:19:43.780So hopefully this stand that New York City is taking will create a domino effect of other cities. I know other cities have already started this divestment from fossil fuels, but also hopefully create an open source model for other states to do the same thing.
00:20:04.420And that's beginning to happen. San Francisco votes soon on divestment. We'll see if we can keep this momentum going.
00:20:11.660And what do you think the outcome would be? Let's just say 50% of states were to divest.
00:20:19.020There's been enough divestment already. It's about $6 trillion worth of endowments and portfolios
00:20:23.720that have divested that the academics say that it's already begun to put a noticeable drag on
00:20:30.640the ability of the fossil fuel industry to raise capital. And that gets more severe all the time.
00:20:37.220So I don't think it takes 50%. I think this is a marginal business. You get 5% or 10% of pension funds and stuff saying, no, we're not going to do this anymore. And it becomes a real problem for this industry, which is good. They're a real problem for the planet. So we need to cause them what trouble we can.
00:20:55.620Because basically it's a kind of supply and demand type idea that if they're not being funded and they're not making money, then they'll either go out of business or change their tactics to renewable.
00:21:09.540Right. They'll have to change what they do. And I don't know whether there's still time left for them to really change and become renewable energy companies and things. We'll see. But we have to keep them from digging up the reserves of coal and oil and gas that they've identified because the science is very clear.
00:21:28.820If that stuff is dug up and burned, it will raise the atmospheric concentrations of CO2 past the point that any scientist thinks is even remotely safe.
00:21:39.540Well, speaking of the last reserves, you know, earlier this month, the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, which was snuck into the Republican budget plan, was opened for oil, along with it seems like every ocean, you know, surrounding this country was opened.
00:22:04.520And I just recently read an article that shed light on some of the less acknowledged dimensions of oil in the Arctic and how it interacts with climate change.
00:22:14.060And apparently, studies that have been going on since the 1970s are showing how permafrost thaws and collapses into thermo karst surrounding roads and infrastructure,
00:22:24.940and how tundra plants are coated in dust up to a mile from roads as a result of trucks barreling past.
00:22:32.700And as this essential ground covering vegetation dies, then permafrost melts faster.
00:22:39.260So, gosh, I'm just curious what's on your mind regarding the Arctic in general and in
00:22:45.640response to the oil and gas death throes of the Trump administration.
00:22:50.560Yes, the Arctic is where we see the most powerful evidences of climate change.
00:22:55.240The physics of climate change means that the Arctic and the Antarctic will heat faster,
00:23:00.100especially the Arctic, as it's lost all that sea ice up there. That used to reflect a lot of the
00:23:06.100sun's rays back out to space, but now the blue water absorbs them, and this Arctic amplification
00:23:11.560then drives warming on land, and we get, as you say, the melt of permafrost. I was up in the
00:23:17.860Brooks Range of Alaska this summer, and it was very evident what was going on, and it certainly
00:23:24.880adds insult to injury to then propose, as the president had done, that we would go into a
00:23:30.620wildlife refuge and drill for oil. That's just sick. That's a sign of a kind of grasping
00:23:37.240addiction. It's the same kind of behavior you see in people who start abusing substances and then
00:23:43.780just literally can't stop themselves. And I have high hopes that we'll be able to keep oil companies
00:23:49.260out of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.
00:24:45.700It's really intense. And, you know, it just seems quite clear that facts don't matter. And science has no credibility in this political regime. And if something is frowned upon, it is quietly snuck in, like the drilling of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge or the impending Curtis Bill, which would make Trump's move to rescind Bears Ears and Grand Escalante National Monuments ultimately legal.
00:25:13.020If politics are a dead end in this regime, what is the purpose of direct action in these times?
00:25:22.320The point is not that politics is impossible.
00:25:25.720It's that politics requires lots of us out there in the field working hard.
00:25:31.220If we get 3, 4, 5% of Americans really engaged in this fight, doing the work, going to meetings,
00:25:38.860of being in the streets, of going to jail, of all the other things that need to happen,
00:25:43.360then we'll win. There's not that many people that work at the oil companies and they have
00:25:47.260endless money and money is left to its own devices, going to win every time. But if we
00:25:52.160don't leave it to its own devices, if we're out there building movements, then we have a fighting
00:25:56.580chance. We've blocked all kinds of things, pipelines and oil ports and new coal mines and
00:26:02.260fracking wells and on and on and on because people went and did the work. So there's no excuse for
00:26:07.720not doing it. That's what it seems to me. That's why we've set up things like 350.org.
00:26:14.120I so appreciate 350.org because it is organizing people in this way. But I do see there's this
00:26:22.700stagnancy sometimes in the movement, where it seems like the other side, let's say the fossil
00:26:28.020fuel industry, seems to be so organized and so potent because they're able to move quickly with
00:26:36.340a lot of power. Why do you think that, let's say, the movement against this a lot of times doesn't
00:26:43.380gain the momentum? Is it because there truly is this power imbalance that's just so momentous to
00:26:50.620overcome? Or do you think we fall short because of other reasons, let's say, horizontal hostility
00:26:57.640in this people's movement? Well, those things may all be true, but actually, I think we've
00:27:04.860done surprisingly well. I've been impressed over the last seven or eight years to watch the rise
00:27:09.920of a climate movement and to watch how much damage it's done. We've won a surprising number of
00:27:15.820battles. And I think my mantra just becomes when we fight, we often win. So we might as well fight
00:27:21.440more often. And, you know, there's always going to be things that make that difficult. People and
00:27:26.320personalities and money and everything else can get in the way. But when you're actually out in
00:27:30.780the middle of a fight, those things are less important and people tend to figure them out.
00:27:34.860Wonderful. Well, thank you, Bill, so much for your tireless work.