For The Wild - CAMILLE DEFRENNE on Forest Symbiosis ⧸213

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00:01:41.180 Hello and welcome to For the Wild podcast. I'm Ayanna Young. At age seven, Camille Dufresne

00:01:48.360 promised herself to be a paleontologist. She is now digging soil, not looking for dinosaur bones,

00:01:54.720 admittedly, but looking for some things equally fascinating. Plant roots and their fungal

00:01:59.540 partners called mycorrhizal fungi. The most effective strategy is to protect our existing

00:02:06.960 forest and especially the beautiful Ogros forest of the Pacific Northwest. Camille spent four years

00:02:14.220 during her PhD studying Douglas fir trees alongside Dr. Suzanne Simard. Since then,

00:02:20.160 Camille crossed the border and invaded the peatlands of Minnesota, a type of wetlands which

00:02:25.220 are the world's largest natural terrestrial carbon store. Supported by Dr. Colleen Iverson,

00:02:32.080 she is now a postdoctoral research associate spying on roots and their fungal friends

00:02:36.720 in one of the world's largest peatland warming experiments.

00:02:40.520 well Camille thank you so much for joining me today on for the wild podcast I'm really excited

00:02:49.460 to dive into all things fungi and forest with you yeah thank you so much for having me well

00:02:56.260 before we begin I just want to take a moment to honor mycorrhizal fungi and fungi in general now

00:03:03.460 as I prepared for this interview I remembered my time in Cordova Alaska last year where I actually

00:03:09.580 learned about the inseparable relationship between salmon and fungi, as salmon rely on certain fungi

00:03:15.720 as sensory markers that aid them in returning to their natal waters, which is just such a tender

00:03:21.640 reminder of how powerful these profound actors are. To lose, alter, or jeopardize the health

00:03:28.400 of these connectors will undoubtedly create a profound domino effect in our dynamic ecosystems.

00:03:34.400 and many of our listeners are familiar with the forest as a cooperative you know a resilient

00:03:40.620 system where vast mycorrhizal networks link one tree to another however this interdependence also

00:03:47.100 creates serious vulnerabilities so to begin our conversation i'd like to talk about how mycorrhizal

00:03:53.760 networks are faring through land and habitat degradation perhaps beginning with traditional

00:03:59.480 logging and clear-cutting. I imagine mycorrhizal networks are being seriously compromised by

00:04:04.640 clear-cutting, soil compaction, and degradation. So I'd love if you could give us some more details.

00:04:11.100 I want to start first by saying that mycorrhizal networks are formed by mycorrhizal fungi. And

00:04:17.960 those fungi engage in a symbiotic relationship with plants, and they physically associate with

00:04:25.600 plant fine roots to form those networks. And they eventually link many plants' fine roots together

00:04:32.040 using their microscopic filaments. So, you know, when we think about forestry as an industry,

00:04:40.820 you know, forestry mainly focuses on the trees in a forest. But like human societies,

00:04:46.680 forest ecosystems consist of thousands of interactions and interconnectedness among the

00:04:54.280 plants, the animals, so you mentioned the salmons, and also the microbes that live above and below

00:05:00.820 the soil surface. So you were talking about traditional forestry practices, which are

00:05:08.200 clear-cutting and replanting in the Pacific Northwest. And so, of course, those practices

00:05:14.500 disrupt the connection between the trees and their symbiotic fungal partners. So, you know,

00:05:22.920 when clear-cutting removes all the trees, it can rapidly decrease the amount and diversity of

00:05:30.600 micro-hazard fungi, because those fungi really need to partner with trees for their survival.

00:05:37.200 And eventually, the decrease in the diversity of these micro-hazard fungi may lead to a decrease

00:05:43.780 in the productivity of the naturally regenerating seedlings. But I also want to emphasize that

00:05:51.520 even when mycorrhizal fungal networks are disrupted because of logging and clear-cutting

00:05:58.020 and harvesting, there are still mycorrhizal fragments or mycelial fragments that are

00:06:03.720 left in the soil. And so those fragments are really the seeds that can reform networks fairly

00:06:11.340 quickly. And actually research led by Dr. Susan Simard at the University of British Columbia

00:06:19.380 has shown that when microazole networks of trees remain in the soil, even if the trees were

00:06:26.460 left after harvest, then those fungal fragments can still colonize the regenerating seedlings,

00:06:34.960 and it can actually dramatically increase their establishment, their survival, and their growth.

00:06:41.660 So really, you know, microzile networks can withstand forestry as long as there are some trees that are left behind to help the next generation of trees.

00:06:54.300 Oh, well, that's so wonderful to hear. Thank you for that.

00:06:57.060 And I want to bring up another point regarding forestry and, you know, forestry is increasingly becoming more and more poisonous as fungicides, pesticides and herbicides are continuously used without any hesitation or regard for their long lasting and tremendous impacts.

00:07:13.580 Where I am, I currently bear witness to private timber companies using imazapyr, which is used for vegetation control.

00:07:23.380 And while the makers of this silent killer will continue to deny this, imazapyr, like most pesticides and herbicides, are carcinogenic.

00:07:33.100 So I'm really curious about the long-term effects of herbicides or other poisons on fungal networks.

00:07:40.220 Yeah, so, yeah, I'm actually sad to hear that too.

00:07:44.300 But, you know, when you use fungicides, of course, all of the living fungi in the forest will be impacted.

00:07:52.660 So it includes the microcell fungi, but also the fungi that decompose wood in the forest that are the saprotrophs and also the pathogenic fungi that colonize the plant fine roots.

00:08:05.900 So, yes, by suppressing microcosm fungi using fungicides, you will severely damage the fungal networks.

00:08:15.700 And that's a vicious cycle because if you damage the microcosm networks, then less tree fine roots will be colonized by those microcosm fungi.

00:08:27.660 And so it will be even more difficult to form microcosm networks.

00:08:31.940 So I also want to emphasize that I'm not myself very familiar with research on herbicides and pesticides in forests.

00:08:40.480 But I can say that based on research in the forest of British Columbia, we know that plants are adapted to their soil environments, really.

00:08:50.880 They are adapted to the microbes that live in the soil, and especially to microcosm fungi.

00:08:56.300 And so this is what we refer to as local adaptation.

00:09:01.940 And so, of course, if we remove the plants or the insects with the use of herbicides and pesticides, we'll certainly disrupt the communities of organisms in the soil, which may then negatively impact the plants and the fungi that rely on them.

00:09:21.520 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

00:09:23.360 and you studied under dr susan samard who so thoughtfully introduced the term mother trees

00:09:30.180 into the scientific lexicon by proving not only do older trees recognize their kin but they

00:09:36.940 actively provide them with larger michael risal networks reduce their own root competition for

00:09:42.440 them communicate when danger is present and even send farewell messages prior to their death

00:09:48.580 You now work with the Mother Tree Project, which is building upon these findings and contextualizing them with forest resilience.

00:09:56.020 And so as we talk about disturbances to forest ecosystems, I'd like to ask you a little bit more about what happens when we lose these mother trees and what role do they play in forest regeneration?

00:10:07.960 Right. So as you said, you know, discovering that trees are a cooperative organism was an important paradigm in the way we see forest and the way we manage forest.

00:10:22.420 And so, yes, you talked about the mother tree. This is a project led by Dr. Susan Simard at the University of British Columbia in Canada.

00:10:32.040 And this project started in 2015 with the core goal of designing forest practices that would be based on ecology so that we can create more resilient forests, more forests that would be more healthy and be able to deal with climate change and to deal with uncertainties.

00:10:53.180 So this experiment was designed to apply our vesting at intensities that would minimize losses, and so minimize losses of carbon, minimize losses of biodiversity and productivity, so forests can withstand global change without changing their basic structure and functions.

00:11:19.180 functions. And so that means that we want to know how we can best retain the mother trees during

00:11:26.480 harvesting. Because as you know, the mother trees are the biggest and oldest trees in the forest.

00:11:33.660 And they also have the greatest connections with the other trees through micros and networks.

00:11:41.900 And those trees also have the highest photosynthetic activity, which means that they

00:11:47.900 can send a lot of carbon under the crown to sustain their fungal partners. So they contribute

00:11:55.040 the most to the maintenance of mycorrhizal networks. And so the research that we have

00:12:02.020 been doing with mother trees has shown that the survival rates of seedlings that were planted

00:12:08.940 near the mother trees would increase by two to four times. So it's really important that we try

00:12:17.260 to understand what are the ecological roles of these mother trees after harvesting. And we're

00:12:23.440 trying to really design practices that would help the mother trees to then help the forest.

00:12:31.800 Well, thinking about mother trees and the care they provide in stressed forests leads me to

00:12:37.900 think about climate change and how many of our forests are radically changing under hotter and

00:12:43.320 drier more climates. Globally, our forests support almost two-thirds of the Earth's terrestrial

00:12:49.300 species, and so to see them change will no doubt have profound implications. So how are drier and

00:12:56.740 hotter climates impacting mycorrhizal networks and the resiliency of the forest? And will these

00:13:02.800 networks cease to exist, or will they just work differently? Yeah, so, you know, it's important

00:13:09.640 because many scientists around the world currently are working

00:13:14.080 to really understand the impact of climate change

00:13:16.880 on soil microbial communities.

00:13:19.620 And it's crucial because, you know,

00:13:21.620 when we think about these interactions,

00:13:24.060 they just happen at the scale of the millimeters in the soil,

00:13:28.300 but they have global scale consequences

00:13:30.840 for soil carbon sequestration

00:13:33.520 and also for lessening the gravity of climate change.

00:13:37.320 So, we know that elevated temperature and associated drought

00:13:43.160 alter the community composition of fungi and also the functional composition.

00:13:48.760 But we have to keep in mind that the impact of climate change

00:13:53.060 on microbial communities are highly context dependent.

00:13:58.260 So, for example, in Alaska, some fungi will prefer to ensure their survival

00:14:04.600 and they're warming and drying, so they would maintain the functioning of their cells rather

00:14:10.420 than feeding on carbon in the case of saprotrophs. We also know that climate change in the Arctic

00:14:18.700 tundra would favor microcell fungi that form extensive mycelial networks. And actually,

00:14:26.360 my research in northern Minnesota tells a similar story. So I work on the Spruce and

00:14:34.560 Peatland responses and their changing environment experiment. And this experiment, funded by

00:14:41.200 the Department of Energy's Office of Science, is really designed to know how northern Peatland

00:14:48.180 ecosystem will respond to rising temperatures and elevated atmospheric carbon dioxide.

00:14:56.200 And so what we do with Dr. Colleen Iverson is to look at the fungal growth and look at the root

00:15:04.040 growth by remotely operating robotic cameras installed under the ground at the spruce. And

00:15:12.960 we really want to know, as you said, how a drier and hotter climate would impact the world below

00:15:19.440 our feet. And so we recently found that warming in this peatland can lead to a loss of fungal

00:15:27.060 functional diversity. But interestingly, whole ecosystem warming may benefit the formation

00:15:34.980 of mycorrhizal networks, because we observe extensive fungal networks with warming.

00:15:42.640 And so if you want to judge for yourself and visualize these changes, you can visit Dr.

00:15:48.880 Iverson's website, where we actually share a snapshot of this hidden below ground world

00:15:55.840 in the spruce experiment pit bog.

00:15:59.460 In preparing for this interview, I learned that Dr. Simard has run experiments with

00:16:04.040 douglas furs and ponderosa pines to learn how they will behave amidst climate change, because

00:16:09.160 ponderosas, as lower elevation species, are expected to begin replacing doug furs. And sure

00:16:15.960 enough, it was shown that in areas where doug furs are mother trees, when they are injured, not only

00:16:21.940 do they dump their carbon into the network so that the ponderosa can have it, but defense enzymes are

00:16:28.300 upregulated in all seedlings, which underscores again the importance of mycorrhizal networks as

00:16:33.920 trees navigating climate change regimes as well as an example of how native species are aiding new

00:16:40.760 species when they recognize that they may no longer be the dominant species it's so amazing

00:16:46.980 yeah exactly so really the trees have evolved in you know a cooperation relationship with

00:16:54.660 the trees of the same species but also the trees of different species and so

00:17:00.680 you mentioned that trees can recognize their offspring. They can recognize their kin and send

00:17:09.360 more carbon to their kin through the mycorrhizal fungal networks. And so you mentioned Dr. Susan

00:17:16.420 Simard's research on ponderosa pine and Douglas fir, but she also showed that Douglas fir can

00:17:24.860 collaborate with deciduous trees. So when those deciduous trees lose their leaves during the fall

00:17:35.060 and the winter, then the Douglas fir trees can send more carbon to them to help them dealing with

00:17:42.560 the fact that they lose their leaves. So they cannot photosynthesize enough to gain enough

00:17:49.260 carbon to sustain their roots. So incredible. Well, I'm also curious about how fungi are

00:17:57.680 affected by forest fires and if changing fire regimes mean anything for tree communication

00:18:03.480 and how are mycorrhizal networks impacted by fire in general? Yeah, so I want to emphasize

00:18:11.000 first that fire are part of a natural ecosystem. So fires are part of the functioning of natural

00:18:20.440 ecosystem. But when you have changes in fire regime or changes in fire intensity and severity

00:18:28.820 with climate change, then that's becoming a problem to the ecosystem because the natural

00:18:34.740 ecosystem would not be adapted to these specific changes. So depending on the severity and the

00:18:42.740 frequency of fire, they can severely impact the microbial communities in the soil, but they do not

00:18:49.440 necessarily kill all the microbes in the soil. They mainly change the community composition

00:18:56.900 of the microbes. And so of course, if you think that, you know, some species rely on certain

00:19:03.380 microbes or on certain micros and fungal species to survive. And then if those species cannot

00:19:10.780 withstand fire, then those plant species might just disappear because they will not have

00:19:19.380 their partner to sustain their growth. So really, when the forest is reduced to ashes,

00:19:26.900 microbes are really the first step for the forest to regenerate.

00:19:31.060 interesting yeah that's fascinating too i was actually last night i was in this incredible

00:19:38.280 national forest that has definitely been hit by fire and there's a mosaic of old growth and

00:19:45.420 probably second third growth from old logging sites and then these fire fire patches and what's

00:19:54.960 coming up in those fire patches is so much abundance and food and medicine and biodiversity

00:20:01.920 so i could really see how the forest is regenerating relatively quickly and bringing in so many animals

00:20:08.780 to these fire burned areas to create new life and yeah like i said just so much more diversity than

00:20:16.740 even just the forest 100 feet away that didn't get burned and so just being in a forest that had

00:20:23.260 had this mosaic of burns and really understanding the evolution of what happens after a fire

00:20:28.160 it was an incredible space to be in to have a different perspective on the conventional or

00:20:35.320 the kind of the majority fear of forest fires in general yeah exactly and this is how you say it

00:20:43.000 you know it creates diversity it's part of the natural cycle in nature and really after a fire

00:20:51.160 you can have many different fungal species that would actually take advantage of the high temperature and disperse their spore because they like fire.

00:21:02.240 So it creates a new communities of plants and fungi.

00:21:06.200 And, you know, eventually when the forest developed and evolved, then we might end up with a forest 100 years from now that would look the same as a forest that you can see that didn't have fire or didn't burn.

00:21:22.960 So it's really creating a mosaic of different patches on the landscape.

00:21:28.640 And it's actually really beautiful.

00:21:36.200 I'm grown afraid of the symbols we make

00:21:56.000 What would fit in like moths to a light

00:21:59.980 What's keeping me up at night

00:22:05.620 What's keeping me up tonight

00:22:11.000 I'm grown afraid of the long, delayed rain

00:22:18.580 That is creeping ever closer to the shore

00:22:22.260 And I wonder if it holds back anymore

00:22:28.040 I wonder if I'll watch it when it pours

00:22:35.620 I'd like to now transition our conversation to discuss restoration, reforestation, and afforestation,

00:22:45.160 and how these goals have really been bolstered by scientific studies that highlight their possibility to cut down atmospheric carbon dioxide by 25%.

00:22:55.160 percent. And so in the past couple of years, governments, corporations, and NGOs have really

00:23:01.360 become hyper-obsessed with mass reforestation and afforestation in the name of carbon sequestration.

00:23:09.040 But even a sort of cursory dive into this reveals that, like any other quick fix, it's riddled with

00:23:15.700 problems. And I know I'm going to go on here for a bit, but for listeners, I want to share a short

00:23:22.680 story of what this looks like. So in Japan during World War II, huge swaths of forests were cut down

00:23:29.500 because of a booming demand for timber. In the aftermath, Japan instituted a large-scale tree

00:23:35.880 planting initiative. But of course, there wasn't an ecological approach to this. The government

00:23:42.260 just wanted to reforest as quickly as possible so that there would be future resources and they

00:23:48.960 could mitigate mass rain runoff and landslides caused by earlier deforestation. So they only

00:23:55.240 planted two species, fast-growing hinoki and sugi, or Japanese cypress and cedar, essentially

00:24:02.200 converting over 40% of Japan's total forest cover to just these two species. And today,

00:24:08.860 the ramifications of this move are really tremendous. For example, because evergreens

00:24:15.060 don't drop their leaves as often. The surrounding rivers now have less fish because water sources

00:24:21.340 are without minerals, and Japan has a mass hay fever problem. So unfortunately, this isn't just

00:24:28.660 in Japan. Many countries continue to make the same mistake by using single species. Countries like

00:24:35.260 China, Brazil, and Australia, which coincidentally, alongside Russia, the US, and Canada, make up more

00:24:42.480 than 50% of global tree reforestation potential. So I wonder if you can talk about the inner

00:24:50.900 workings and the problems of these one-track-minded solutions to carbon emissions and the ramifications

00:24:57.620 of putting trees where they don't really belong. Yes, exactly. So I didn't know this problem with

00:25:03.940 Japan. And I think that's a very good example of bad reforestation practices. So I want to 0.94

00:25:12.720 emphasize, you know, that tree trees and forest ecosystem help limit global warming because they

00:25:19.200 reduce the concentration of carbon dioxide in our atmosphere. And so, you know, regrowing and

00:25:27.520 expanding existing forests, which is reforestation, and growing new forests, which is afforestation,

00:25:35.380 are good ways to capture and store additional carbon from the atmosphere. But, you know,

00:25:42.320 effectively planting trees to capture carbon dioxides, you have to think about several

00:25:48.880 criterias. And you cannot just plant trees everywhere. You cannot just plant the tree

00:25:55.860 species that you think will be best for this area. There are many things to consider. And the first

00:26:02.740 criteria is the location of trees, right? So trees would not naturally grow in some areas such as

00:26:10.940 savannas, grassland, or tundra ecosystems. And so if you plant trees in those type of ecosystem,

00:26:20.100 the carbon dioxide could actually be released into the atmosphere instead of being removed.

00:26:26.140 And so it's also a big problem in peatland ecosystems because many peatlands have been

00:26:32.620 trained for tree planting. But we know now that the carbon that was stored for millennia

00:26:39.500 into the pit was released because trees were planted in those ecosystems. So actually,

00:26:47.240 tropical ecosystems, and especially the Amazon rainforest, have the greatest potential for both

00:26:53.640 large-scale restoration and afforestation. And I mentioned those different criterias,

00:27:00.120 and the location of trees are important, but also the choice and management of tree species

00:27:06.720 are of crucial importance so you know we want to plant a large diversity of native tree species

00:27:15.140 because that's the more effective way to store carbon than monoculture so you were

00:27:20.820 talking about the example of Japan but we have many more examples around the globe where

00:27:27.720 fast-growing pine and eucalyptus and poplar were planted and usually those species are not native

00:27:35.000 to the location where they are planted.

00:27:37.160 So it's a big problem

00:27:38.500 and it's actually not storing as much carbon as we want it.

00:27:43.260 And also we have to think about what happens to the carbon

00:27:46.800 after it becomes a tree, right?

00:27:49.080 How can we store the carbon when we replant the forest?

00:27:54.140 And so the carbon can be stored as wooden projects,

00:27:58.100 it can be stored in the soil

00:27:59.540 and it can be stored in sediments.

00:28:01.900 And all of this would help global warming or would limit global warming. But it's really important to consider the afterlife of a tree.

00:28:13.600 Just thinking more about Japan and even what I've heard from folks in Australia, that in some areas, native forests are actually cut down and have been cut down and replaced by more lucrative plantation forest.

00:28:27.720 but of course that can also be deemed as a carbon sequestration project and if you don't look at the

00:28:34.900 fine print you're not realizing what's actually happening to then sequester the carbon or the

00:28:41.380 other thing the current national japanese forestry laws mandate that whenever sugi or a hinoki tree

00:28:48.000 is cut down it must be replanted with a seedling of the same species so it's not even really

00:28:54.280 possible to do ecologically minded holistic reforestation in some of these areas, even if

00:28:59.780 somebody wanted to. So yeah, there's a lot of complexity here. And I'm just so fascinated with

00:29:06.980 this whole world of the reforestation industrial complex, especially in my own work. And it has

00:29:13.900 been a real shocker to learn all this stuff about tree planting, because from the outside,

00:29:20.360 it seems so good it seems like there what could what could possibly be wrong with planting more

00:29:25.960 trees but then you open up that wormhole and you know you realize there's a lot going on there but

00:29:32.100 yes I also want to mention you know many NGOs that are trying to help society to offset our

00:29:41.200 carbon emission some of the NGOs do not want to invest in planting trees because as you said there

00:29:48.500 are so many things to consider and forest takes a lot of time to regenerate and to grow and so

00:29:55.680 it can be a very effective strategy to tackle climate change but you know more in the long

00:30:03.500 term but in the short term there are projects that might be better suited to you know mitigate

00:30:10.200 climate change than planting trees especially if you plant trees without having a good management

00:30:16.900 strategy plan absolutely well before we delve deeper into the reforestation industrial complex

00:30:25.700 i'm thinking back to my conversation with peter wellenbin who reminds us that trees that grow

00:30:32.440 slower and under canopy are actually stronger they have more fungal connections and they're

00:30:38.540 a part of this truly powerful system but like we were just talking about human desire institutional

00:30:45.480 desire is to just plant trees that grow fast so we can see our success and feel like we've fixed

00:30:51.260 the problem. But how do we reconcile our desire for tree growth if it comes at the expense of

00:30:57.840 biodiversity? And so I'm thinking about how a lack of wisdom on our part and our desire for

00:31:03.600 fast global solutions has profound implications on ecologies, as well as how if we sever old

00:31:10.200 growth, we sever the wisdom amongst trees. And I wonder if maybe you could speak to the importance

00:31:16.080 of saving old growth forest in relation to the mycorrhizal networks. Yes, exactly. So as you

00:31:24.580 say, the most effective strategy is to protect our existing forest and especially the beautiful

00:31:31.920 old growth forest of the Pacific Northwest. And so it is really tied to the research of Dr.

00:31:38.940 Teresa Ryan and Dr. Susan Simard on the salmon forest of the Pacific Northwest, because they

00:31:46.780 show that the nutrients that are taken up by the salmon from the sea are returning to the forest

00:31:55.340 through the predators, such as the wolves and the bears and the eagles eating the salmons.

00:32:01.240 And so eventually, you know, those predators leave the salmon carcasses on the forest floor.

00:32:10.160 And yeah, and the nutrients from the salmon are then, you know, decomposed and taken up by the roots and the microcell fungi.

00:32:19.040 And those nutrients are then transferred through different trees through the fungal networks.

00:32:26.060 And we can find the signature of the salmon nutrients in the tree rings.

00:32:32.940 And this memory, this signature are stored in tree rings for centuries.

00:32:39.400 And so it really provides a memory bank of historical salmon runs.

00:32:44.880 And so really the circle of life depends on the trait of mutual respects.

00:32:50.240 And so, you know, this is a good example of how people are sustainably embedded in these complex adaptive systems that are forests and the societies. And so, you know, we really need to protect this memory because at the end of the day, it is the memory of our societies. So we need to protect our okra forests.

00:33:12.440 Could not agree with you more on that. Something that I'm really witnessing is the ways in which restoration and reforestation are byproducts of extractive industry. That is the framework they exist in. And so I'm really questioning, what are we putting into motion? And I come back to a question Suzanne Simard poses, which is, how can we reinforce and help the forest rather than weakening them?

00:33:37.780 And to me, so much restoration work actually does weaken the forest. It's not in servitude to these

00:33:45.500 ecosystems. It serves corporations and companies that are backing these projects for image boosting

00:33:51.120 or job generation. So my question here is, how can we cultivate restoration work that is truly

00:33:58.000 in servitude to the forest, while also creating integrated and dignified jobs and experiences

00:34:03.820 for each other? So when forestry, when forest practices are based on ecology, we want to help

00:34:14.360 forests to withstand global changes. We want to help them sustain their biodiversity and keep

00:34:22.440 storing carbon and keep being productive. And so really trying to protect existing forests is the

00:34:29.720 best way we can we can do that but when we regrow and expand existing forest we need to think about

00:34:37.340 those three things right so carbon storage and biodiversity and productivity and when you plant

00:34:44.200 a mixture of native species and you manage them sustainably this might be a very encouraging way

00:34:52.080 that we can save the forest and we can help the forest to be more resilient to future disturbances

00:34:59.060 Mm hmm. Yeah, I am. I think about there are some restoration projects that are happening near me. And I kind of put the restoration and air quotes because they're wanting to do road decommissioning. And that means, you know, to them, well, what it actually really looks like is for this instance, particularly, it's a logging road that has right by a creek.

00:35:29.060 and it has been growing back for the past 30 or 40 years. And so there's huckleberries and

00:35:35.760 redwoods and dougfers and redroot and white thorn have all grown up on this old logging road and

00:35:44.000 the buffer zones in between it. So there's no sedimentation coming off this road anymore. And

00:35:48.880 it's been taken over by plants, but they want to bring in bulldozers and excavators and dig up

00:35:57.060 all of this road that has been overgrown. So take out all of the trees and plants that have grown on

00:36:03.020 it, dig up the soil, which of course is going to create even more sediment, which will then

00:36:07.900 affect the creeks and the rivers, potentially really injuring the salmon in terms of the beds

00:36:14.600 that they lay their eggs in, or even suffocating them in their gills. And so I'm looking at this

00:36:20.200 project knowing that it's funded by Bank of America and the likes, you know, getting major,

00:36:24.640 major grants and massive funding to basically go in, use more fossil fuels, use these large

00:36:31.720 machines that are compacting the soil, ripping up what's already grown just in the name of

00:36:36.260 restoration. And I'm like, this is just a way to keep the economic capitalist model moving forward.

00:36:43.360 It's just a way to continue eating up fossil fuels, get subsidies and disturb the forest even

00:36:49.120 more. And so it's, yeah, I definitely have a lot of frustrations when it comes to modern day

00:36:56.660 restoration projects that have been created by the logging industry. And then I know there's so

00:37:04.400 many well-meaning people like myself who didn't understand this and really just wanted to support

00:37:10.200 restoration and reforestation, not realizing that there's so many nuances to how it's done.

00:37:16.560 And yeah, so I just, I had to give, give you that little rant because I'm so frustrated by it all.

00:37:24.240 I do understand this, this frustration. Yes, I cannot comment on specific examples, but you know, if we keep in mind that whenever we want to restore an ecosystem, you know, we have to think about the ecology of the ecosystem first.

00:37:42.020 We have to think about the consequences and what is the context and why would you restore the ecosystem?

00:37:49.520 You know, what's your primary goal? And but you also have to think long term.

00:37:56.280 Right. And so many of the projects around the world might not have this long term perspective.

00:38:02.980 And it's really it's really important because ecosystem are taking a long time to grow.

00:38:09.200 they are taking a long time to establish those interaction and interconnectedness that makes

00:38:15.580 makes them resilient to disturbances resilience to climate change so we need to give nature more

00:38:22.380 time yeah yeah i'm with you there and i think that when we try to speed up a forest and say

00:38:32.700 oh we're gonna speed up this process and make it be old growth sooner it's like well we can't make

00:38:38.300 old growth sooner. I mean, it's just old growth is old growth because it takes time and it's

00:38:43.660 complex and things grow and the soil builds. It's like really such a human supremacist

00:38:50.220 mindset to think that we can somehow create old growth in our lifetimes or within five years or

00:38:56.260 10 years. I'm really with you on that. And I would say as an individual, I strongly feel

00:39:05.480 um that we cannot create nature you know we we can thrive to understand and we can thrive

00:39:13.340 to help nature um to um then try to help us um you know mitigating climate change and um

00:39:22.960 sustaining our local communities but we really have to be humble um with that and and i think

00:39:30.280 think this is really um what a mother tree project is about you know trying to help for us be more

00:39:37.800 resilient and trying to uh take the knowledge that you know susan simar and colleagues have

00:39:44.480 accumulated for decades trying to really understand um what are the role of mother trees

00:39:50.660 and how we can you know um maintain those trees those extremely important trees um so they can

00:39:58.960 better help the next generation of forest to deal with changes and the same way as society

00:40:07.440 has to deal with changes too so we also have to take the ecosystem as examples and you know

00:40:15.600 take more time and create more interactions it is pretty hard right now with our situations but

00:40:22.780 it is really important

00:40:23.920 guitar solo

00:40:53.920 to see. I have tried to find the words to speak this aching thing aloud, but it burns between

00:41:15.600 in context to reforestation and restoration i do want to ask you a bit about the mycorrhizal

00:41:26.880 networks you observe when we introduce trees and plants that are grown outside of that soil

00:41:32.320 into clear cuts where the soil has been damaged does this impact tree growth and does it make

00:41:38.860 sense to relocate native fungal strains into forests that have been damaged like they do

00:41:44.220 with trees and other plants? I don't really have a lot of knowledge on this topic and I'm not

00:41:52.180 I'm not really an expert in you know reintroducing native fungal strength strengths. I think as an

00:42:00.580 individual I feel that the ecosystem could take many different routes could take many different

00:42:08.000 path and it's really hard to anticipate how an ecosystem would react to the introduction of

00:42:16.580 an external agent even if it's native from the soil of a given area right because you know you

00:42:27.580 have so many interactions and so many interconnections that you know if you remove

00:42:34.620 one of the nodes that are the trees or the plants and the links that are the fungi,

00:42:40.520 you don't really know how the ecosystem will recover. And so this is the same principle. If

00:42:48.280 you add one link, one agent to the ecosystem, you don't really know how the others part of

00:42:57.740 the ecosystem will react to it right yeah it's complex for those of us who do want to be engaged

00:43:05.300 with reforestation in a holistic ecological minded way um learning from the first nations

00:43:14.720 people who hold the traditional ecological knowledge you know i guess do you see any forms

00:43:24.160 of replanting or reintroducing different species into a damaged let's say clear-cut area do you

00:43:34.900 think that is beneficial at all or do you think the forest should just be allowed to repopulate

00:43:40.280 on its own or so yeah it's like are you on either end of that spectrum and if you are on the spectrum

00:43:46.660 that yeah we can introduce things what do you think is the best way to do that right so i think

00:43:53.020 the context is really important right trying to understand what's the history of the forest that

00:43:59.660 was cut you know what are the native species uh what was the connection you know um um what is

00:44:07.800 the the microbial communities of the soil and and as an individual i do think that uh reforestation

00:44:15.160 project as are very important and and you know research shows that um they um they can help us

00:44:22.760 mitigate climate change but really trying to understand um what are the fishes that you want

00:44:27.800 to plant um what are the long-term consequences you know trying to take all of that into account

00:44:34.940 and you know planting trees is not just about uh putting a plant into the soil it's really trying

00:44:42.840 to help the plant be resilient to what's going to happen to it right so and for that the plants need

00:44:51.020 the microbial community and needs the right microbial community so you have to take all of

00:44:57.300 that into account before planting trees but i do think that you know first protecting existing

00:45:04.300 forest and then second planting trees is are the best solutions to help our forest

00:45:11.420 be more resilience to future conditions. Well, Camille, for my final question, I'd like to ask

00:45:19.160 you about a project you're currently working on, which assesses the response of northern forested

00:45:24.480 peatlands to increasing temperatures and carbon dioxide levels. And for those who are unfamiliar,

00:45:30.820 peatlands are so vital when it comes to climate change because they hold around a third of the

00:45:35.260 world's carbon. So what are you learning about the mycorrhizal networks in peatlands under climate

00:45:40.860 change and what kind of rapid changes are they going to experience yeah so thanks say enough for

00:45:49.800 um you know telling people that peatlands are extremely important because they they actually

00:45:55.680 store more carbon than all other vegetation type combined but they are highly vulnerable to climate

00:46:03.640 change, and mainly because the combined risk of rising temperature and changing the hydrologic

00:46:11.420 conditions in the pitlands. And so I'm working on this experiment called Spruce, and it's located

00:46:18.700 in a pitland in northern Minnesota. And it was really designed to know if climate change would

00:46:26.060 lead to a release of carbon from this ecosystem. And so what we find so far is that whole ecosystem

00:46:33.560 and warming has extended the active season of the trees and shrubs that are growing in these systems.

00:46:41.840 And so that means that the trees such as the tamarack, the spruce, and the shrubs such as

00:46:49.220 rhododendrons will have more time to grow. And some other research on the spruce project also

00:46:57.720 shows that mycorrhizal fungi are decomposing faster when the soil is warm and when the air

00:47:06.020 is warm. And also the shrubs are really happy in this warmer environment and their growth is

00:47:14.740 exploding above the soil surface, but also below the soil surface. And I want to emphasize that

00:47:21.160 all of these changes have converted this specific peatland from an ecosystem gaining carbon to an

00:47:29.000 ecosystem losing carbon at pretty high rate. And so, you know, if we think globally, you know,

00:47:37.360 if we think about peatlands around the world, it's possible that we might lose carbon from this

00:47:43.760 peatland that can be as high as 50 percent of the amount of carbon dioxide emitted by each car in

00:47:54.040 the U.S. So you can, you know, think about it and realize that it's a lot of carbon that we might be

00:48:00.100 losing. So I want to emphasize that trying to protect boreal peatland biodiversity is crucial

00:48:08.140 if we really want to lessen the impact of global change.

00:48:12.500 So, you know, you can try to get engaged with NGOs

00:48:17.740 that are trying to protect this fragile ecosystem.

00:48:22.920 And you can yourself, you know, educate yourself

00:48:27.900 on the importance of this ecosystem,

00:48:30.080 but also on the importance of Arctic tundra

00:48:33.640 and on the importance of tropical forests.

00:48:35.880 And it's really about your knowledge and what you can do with that.

00:48:40.920 Well, I know I said that was my last question, but I would love to hear just a little bit more about the peatlands.

00:48:47.580 And I'm wondering if you could kind of orient us geographically to where many of them are located, maybe what they look like, or even what the site that you've been working on looks like, feels like, where it is.

00:49:02.200 Just because I really want the audience to be able to visualize these peatlands with us.

00:49:09.860 Yeah, yeah.

00:49:10.780 No, peatlands are extremely beautiful.

00:49:15.120 So the term peatlands refers to the peat soil and the wetland habitats that grow on it.

00:49:22.200 So, you know, the peat layers are partially decomposed materials that have accumulated over the boreal landscape or over the tropical landscape for thousands and thousands of years.

00:49:37.940 And so peatlands are generally located in the northern hemisphere, and we talk about northern peatland or boreal peatlands, but you also have a significant area of the globe that is covered by peatland in tropical forests or in the tropical biome.

00:49:57.360 And so in northern Minnesota, where the spruce experiment is located, we are working in a peat bog.

00:50:06.100 And so this ecosystem is waterlogged the whole year.

00:50:11.300 It's very wet.

00:50:12.900 And we have a lot of mosses that grow above, you know, and create those beautiful moss carpets.

00:50:21.640 And we have the mosses.

00:50:23.460 Some mosses are green and some mosses are red.

00:50:26.020 So it really creates a landscape, a mosaic of different colors.

00:50:30.660 And then the mosses are surrounded by the trees and the shrubs that also are part of the ecosystem.

00:50:40.540 And so we have some trees such as spruce that are coniferous species that never lose their needles.

00:50:50.940 But we also have large or tamaracks. That's the same species.

00:50:56.020 uh that lose their needles so that's the sea juice coniferous trees and those beautiful large

00:51:02.660 trees uh before they lose their needles they um they turn yellow and so if you have the chance

00:51:10.340 to be in minnesota and uh to see those speed lands in the fall you can see that the whole

00:51:16.480 landscape will become yellow because of the large trees so that's that's that's extremely beautiful

00:51:23.120 oh i didn't want you to stop i was just with you right seeing the colors and yeah yeah i know

00:51:31.200 you could if so if you really have the chance to uh go to northern minnesota uh the spruce

00:51:38.200 experiment is open to the public so you can really see um the huge greenhouses uh that

00:51:45.660 encompass the trees and really judge for yourself the importance of peatland and you know what

00:51:53.740 scientists have to do to understand their response to global change and so the spruce team has built

00:52:03.260 these gigantic greenhouses of seven meters tall and so the way it works is that we have

00:52:11.780 different greenhouses with different temperature treatments and so in some greenhouses you enter

00:52:19.880 and you feel that it's really warm it might be four degrees warmer than the outside air temperature

00:52:27.360 but in some greenhouses you enter and it's actually plus nine degrees celsius so it's

00:52:33.460 it's really warmer than what you can experience if you are out in in the natural peatland

00:52:40.280 So it's really interesting visually to look at the changes in the species community composition and to look at these changes also in the number of mushrooms that can grow above the moss carpet.

00:52:57.240 So you might have a lot of mushrooms growing in those really warm greenhouses.

00:53:03.520 And then if you go to greenhouses that would be less warm, what you can see is way more mosses, but less mushrooms.

00:53:11.920 And the trees are greener in those less or in those colder greenhouses.

00:53:18.780 So it's really interesting to judge visually what's happening.

00:53:24.100 And actually, I would encourage listeners to go to the Spruce website because the Spruce team has installed cameras in each of the experimental enclosure where you can actually visualize what is going on live.

00:53:45.020 and then you can look at the change um in um the the species the pattern of the growth and

00:53:54.760 um the spring green dawn and autumn green dawn of the trees and the shrubs you can you can look at

00:54:02.080 that uh with the the videos that we are taking um so if you're if you're interested in that you can

00:54:09.740 you can visit the spruce website i will yeah i have a bit but i will again well camille this

00:54:16.940 has been so wonderful thank you so much for talking about the forest with me which is

00:54:21.740 definitely my fate one of my favorites if not my favorite topic to jump into so this is yeah

00:54:31.460 this has been really lovely yeah thank you so much ayana and thank you for having such wonderful

00:54:38.000 wonderful podcast

00:54:39.860 thank you for listening to another episode of for the wild podcast the music you heard today

00:54:52.000 was by harrison foster if by whiskey and ali denine for the wild is created by ayana young

00:54:58.920 erica ekram francesca glassbell and melanie younger

00:55:08.000 Thank you.

For The Wild - December 16, 2020

CAMILLE DEFRENNE on Forest Symbiosis ⧸213

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