For The Wild - DIANA BERESFORD-KROEGER on Replanting the Global Forest, Part Two ⧸33

00:00:00.000 It's high on a mountain, the warm winds are blowing, and where the winds are blowing to,

00:00:26.400 There ain't no way of knowing

00:00:29.400 The mountain grass is short

00:00:32.680 It's dry and close to burning

00:00:35.420 Crying out for water

00:00:38.680 As the season's turning

00:00:41.680 Sweet smell the pines

00:00:46.680 Tall western cedar

00:00:48.360 Drifting on the wind

00:00:51.820 Through the mountains like a river

00:00:54.440 Hello, I'm Ayanna Young, and I welcome you to Unlearn and Rewild, where we explore radical

00:01:09.180 ideas relating to earth renewal. Today, we're speaking with Diana Beresford-Kroger. Diana is

00:01:15.780 a botanist, medical biochemist, and self-defined renegade scientist who brings together ethnobotany, 1.00

00:01:23.540 horticulture, spirituality, and alternative medicine to reveal a path toward better stewardship

00:01:29.360 of the natural world. Orphaned in Ireland in her youth, Diana was educated by elders who

00:01:35.540 instructed her in the Brehen knowledge of plants and nature. Told she was the last child of ancient

00:01:41.320 Ireland and told to one day bring this knowledge to a troubled future, Diana has done exactly that.

00:01:47.600 Her bio-plan is an ambitious plan, encouraging people to develop a new relationship with nature, to join together to replant the global forest.

00:01:57.820 Her books include The Sweetness of a Simple Life, The Global Forest, Arboretum Borealis, Arboretum America, and A Garden of Life.

00:02:08.120 Diana Beresford-Kroger was included as a Wings WorldQuest Fellow in 2010

00:02:13.360 and named one of Utney Reader's World Visionaries for 2011.

00:02:18.460 And here's part two.

00:02:23.680 I'm just mesmerized by every subject that you've been able to expound on so passionately and thoroughly.

00:02:32.620 And one thing that we mentioned at the beginning of this conversation was the forest of the oceans.

00:02:40.800 And as we've been meandering through the lush mythologically imbued forest of the land, as you said, the forest of the ocean are equally significant on our earth.

00:02:51.420 So I'm wondering if you can take us there to the invisible forest in the oceans made up of phytoplankton.

00:02:57.740 why they're so indispensable

00:02:59.960 and how cutting trees on land

00:03:02.400 is also detrimental to marine

00:03:04.280 communities

00:03:05.020 oh my god yes

00:03:07.400 now first of all just let me

00:03:09.860 ask the public to try to identify

00:03:12.700 fucus

00:03:13.760 vesiculosis and you do

00:03:16.360 have it going all the coast of California

00:03:18.680 and on the east coast

00:03:20.060 it's called fucus

00:03:22.060 vesiculosis and it is a

00:03:24.340 brown algae

00:03:25.340 please go out and try to identify that algae it's a large algae it's got bubbles on it it's on the

00:03:32.640 seashore and you clean that off and you use that as a swab on your skin in September in the end of

00:03:41.140 August for the west coast of America and September for the east coast of America you take that and

00:03:48.200 swab it on your skin what you have in that algae are conceptacles the conceptacles are full of

00:03:55.040 iodine they're the fertile part of the fucus vesiculosis the iodine is released as a water

00:04:01.680 soluble iodine onto your skin and it enhances your thyroid and your parathyroids and it is like

00:04:09.380 putting oil into an engine it's also protective for all of your systems it's an ancient ancient

00:04:15.920 Celtic remedy for revving up your body and giving your body a really good deal for getting through

00:04:22.480 the following winter, and it's health protection for all kinds of colds and flus and everything.

00:04:28.280 Okay, so let us go back now to the forest of the oceans. In the oceans, you have what's known as

00:04:36.500 the invisible forest. These are all kinds of algaes, and sometimes on the California coast,

00:04:42.860 they're enormous, and they grow to about a foot a day, and they are called microcystis,

00:04:49.440 cordales they are enormous and all of the otters the sea otters swing up these algae and they go

00:04:56.500 up 20 30 40 feet they're huge and all the mammals love those and use them and the fish are are set

00:05:04.020 on the place of these algae and um they are just fantastic but they have to have specific growing

00:05:10.880 conditions in the ocean and what happens is that the great forests of the west coast of north

00:05:17.440 america they suck up iron out of the soil all soils all over the world are rich in iron all

00:05:28.580 seas all over the world are poor in iron and the algae in the sea waits for iron to be brought

00:05:39.140 into the water around them to switch on the nitrogenase enzymes that are necessary for the

00:05:46.080 building of protein for protection and division of the algae babies to be made.

00:05:53.300 So how this happens is that a tree grows and it's lollygagging along growing and it produces

00:06:00.880 a leachate and the leachate comes from the fallen leaves, it comes from the compost of

00:06:06.680 the leaves, it comes from the bark, it comes from the periderm of the bark all the way

00:06:11.060 down into the water. And the leachate carries a very large molecule with it. And that molecule

00:06:18.700 is a chelating molecule. It's called fulvic acid. And the fulvic acid is a huge thing. It's like,

00:06:25.680 it's almost a million in molecular weight. It's a great big giant of a molecule, even though you

00:06:31.560 don't see it with your own eyes. And it pulls iron out of the soil. It cradles the iron molecules

00:06:39.880 in the water out to the sea.

00:06:43.300 And when you see fresh water from the land,

00:06:46.960 and it's always produced by means of the forests,

00:06:51.360 that fresh water carries iron from the forests

00:06:54.860 out into the seawater.

00:06:57.740 And it's at those inlets that you always notice these brown algae.

00:07:01.820 You always notice all kinds of sea life there.

00:07:05.780 That is the interface between the sea and the land.

00:07:09.880 And the iron is carried farther out into the great columns of maybe 200 feet long columns in the oceans.

00:07:17.900 That's from the top of the ocean down to the bottom of the ocean of microalgae.

00:07:23.860 And these are teeny, weeny, weeny, weeny algae.

00:07:26.480 The cordales, camisiphanales, all of those different classes of little algae that are set in depth depending on their DNA.

00:07:35.520 And if the DNA is very great, they're down at the bottom.

00:07:38.960 if the DNA is not so great, they're farther up to the top.

00:07:42.360 And they use the iron and they grow and they get bigger and bigger

00:07:46.680 and that feeds the fish.

00:07:48.620 And the fish are fed, feeds the mammals.

00:07:51.080 And the mammals are fed like the great whales come there.

00:07:54.600 And that's why the mother whale pushes her calf towards the side of the ocean,

00:08:00.800 that side of the ocean where there's greater feeding.

00:08:04.040 So without the trees, there would be no iron chelation.

00:08:09.620 Without the iron chelation, there would be no great forest, invisible forest in the ocean.

00:08:14.600 If we look out in the ocean, we don't even know they're there.

00:08:17.440 But the iron feeds that forest, and the forest, that forest, oxygenates the ocean itself.

00:08:26.680 Because believe it or not, fish need oxygen.

00:08:31.040 Believe it or not, marine mammals need oxygen.

00:08:35.200 Believe it or not, all of the sharks and the whales need oxygen.

00:08:39.340 So that's how it happens.

00:09:04.820 Here you go.

00:09:34.820 Let it begin

00:09:47.420 Where they seem

00:09:51.620 Let the rain come in

00:09:59.160 I can feel you breathing on my skin

00:10:22.460 And if you listen

00:10:30.960 You may hear a song

00:10:38.620 By the forest

00:10:47.580 Breathing still

00:11:17.580 as you're describing this you know incredible tapestry and process of the forest and the oceans

00:11:42.000 I am lucky enough to live in the Pacific Northwest, very close to the ocean, and can visualize the interconnection that the forest and the ocean play together.

00:11:56.580 now going into this thought process of forest restoration the forest has been such a commodity

00:12:05.920 most of the global forest is an industrial logging nightmare with the majority of forest

00:12:12.940 overcrowded even aged and monocropped or left as a devastating clear cut still the pesticides

00:12:20.660 And the pesticides. And so the second and third growth forests, you know, they're not plantations, but they also don't have the biodiversity of the old growth ecosystems.

00:12:31.640 So I'm wondering, how do you suggest we approach these forests in flux? Do you think it's worthwhile to take on the huge feat of thinning to provide more space to plant more biodiversity?

00:12:44.420 or should we begin building topsoil on barren clear cuts

00:12:49.240 or just where should we focus our energy

00:12:52.600 within this huge job of forest restoration?

00:12:57.820 Well, what you start doing is if you don't have much money,

00:13:01.760 I call it epicenter forest, okay?

00:13:05.220 So if you, and most people don't have a lot of money,

00:13:09.480 you put in one very valuable tree,

00:13:13.040 Like for where you're living, it would be perhaps a red cedar or a sequoia,

00:13:20.500 some one of the varietals of sequoia.

00:13:24.820 You would put that in and protect that one.

00:13:28.140 And then you start planting other species around it.

00:13:31.220 Like, for instance, you would put in any native species that you can think of

00:13:37.020 and put that around it and space it and just let it go, let it go into nature.

00:13:41.960 and the birds will look after it.

00:13:44.460 You know, the birds will plant seeds too.

00:13:47.080 There will be pollination from butterflies

00:13:49.180 because none of us have this kind of money

00:13:52.100 that we can actually take the pattern of the ancient forest and redo it.

00:13:57.460 Like, for instance, the ancient forest patterns,

00:14:00.680 nobody has written about them.

00:14:02.320 I've been trying to find what kind of climbers go into those forests,

00:14:07.040 like climbing plants I'm talking about,

00:14:08.900 what kind of cornaceous plants go in,

00:14:11.160 all kinds of things so we have to do a second best really because we can't do the perfect thing

00:14:18.100 again it's pretty well impossible to do but you start with one good tree one good healthy tree

00:14:24.780 goes in and around that then you have like for instance around you you may have species of

00:14:31.040 camphor that you might want to put in or if for instance if you want to put in a nut tree plantation

00:14:36.480 you have to have the canopy exposed to the sun.

00:14:40.220 If you want to grow nut trees, forget it

00:14:42.520 if you don't have an open canopy to the sun

00:14:45.180 because the nut tree sucks up as much sun as you can imagine.

00:14:50.200 And if there's shade on the canopy of the nut tree,

00:14:53.120 you won't have nuts.

00:14:55.040 So there's a certain amount of knowledge that you have to have

00:14:59.340 and that knowledge I've put into a huge app

00:15:02.820 to go with all of the trees of North America.

00:15:06.460 So when the film comes out, that's The Call of the Forest, The Sacred Wisdom of Trees,

00:15:11.260 there's also a huge monster app to go with that.

00:15:15.620 So you will be able to get all of the direction that you will need from just going to that app.

00:15:22.620 Well, I am just jumping for joy waiting for that app,

00:15:26.860 because I'm sure I will be on it day and night, walking the forest and learning how to tend the wild.

00:15:35.700 Yeah, and in the app, I mean, this has never been done before.

00:15:40.140 It's to the benefit of the planet, to the benefit of climate change.

00:15:43.420 It is to the benefit of biodiversity.

00:15:45.480 And if you key in all of those things for your one particular tree, you'll get all the answers to that.

00:15:51.720 Also, the growing zones, how it will grow, how fast it will grow, what kinds of trees to not put close to the foundations of your house,

00:16:00.240 the kinds of trees that will withstand traffic, that won't withstand traffic.

00:16:04.460 All of those questions are answered in this app.

00:16:07.480 All of the trees that I have been able to put together for North America.

00:16:11.740 Now, it comes into money.

00:16:13.960 I don't have the money to put together an app for, let's say, Europe.

00:16:18.200 I don't have the ability to put an app for India, but I have done the app for North America.

00:16:24.160 And maybe, please God, somebody will come up to the plate and say,

00:16:27.780 here, Diana, here's whatever sum of money is needed to get a group of people going to put

00:16:35.000 the app together. Maybe somebody will come up and offer to be the patron for the app for something

00:16:41.660 else. And in this app, I also have, if you have a child that has asthma, there are certain species

00:16:48.640 you have to grow to protect the child. If you have children or people in the house who have cancer,

00:16:54.720 there are certain species you should expose yourself to so also the medicines of the forest

00:17:01.180 are connected into the app you know um if you're designing in a garden and you want to put into

00:17:07.420 the garden a weeping form of a tree or something like that you know if you want to have an extremely

00:17:13.060 beautiful garden as well as something that's really you know really working for the climate

00:17:17.960 too i mean because you can do both things together then i have those suggestions there i mean it took

00:17:23.200 me a year to do that app and i had to write a book of scientific thinking to go with it for

00:17:29.760 instance in our ordinary webster's dictionaries there aren't definitions of things like cloud

00:17:36.700 seeding there aren't definitions for many many things and i've put all those definitions into

00:17:42.040 the app to make them really really simple quantum physics simple as simple as possible so it's easy

00:17:48.500 to understand amazing um and i will be very excited when that comes out and promote it on

00:17:58.540 my end and thank you of course and um but just to go back to the question of thinning because i know

00:18:06.300 that is a large restoration tool being used right now do you see thinning as a sustainable or

00:18:16.320 beneficial practice in second and third growth forest i know what you're saying actually you

00:18:22.740 know um it's a very expensive thing to do and thinning is very expensive and if you are going

00:18:29.880 to thin it's perfectly okay to go in and thin and take the smaller species out and to actually run

00:18:36.080 them through a mulching machine or something because they're doing this in germany actually

00:18:40.340 and spread that on the floor and then you increase the quality of the forest floor as of itself.

00:18:47.600 And I know that's what you've asked me.

00:18:49.560 But in some senses, now let's go back to the old thinking of hybrid figure.

00:18:56.740 So you have two phenotypes coming together and they're producing

00:19:01.800 because all of them will have this different phenotype epigenetics.

00:19:05.980 So some, one or many of the trees that are within that plantation that you're talking about

00:19:12.720 will have a boosted, stronger immune system and will be able to outgrow its many companions.

00:19:22.780 And if you look at a plantation, as I have had the time to do that,

00:19:27.640 you will find some of the trees become more dominant.

00:19:32.100 Now, it appears to me to be that there is also a conversation going on in the forest,

00:19:39.740 a conversation between species.

00:19:42.740 And I will ask you to do an experiment this way.

00:19:46.260 If you put 10 equal seeds into a pot of soil,

00:19:51.620 you will find our 10 equal bulbs into a pot of soil, one becomes dominant.

00:19:57.580 or two might then, mostly one becomes dominant.

00:20:03.600 It seems to me that there was a conversation going on between the root systems

00:20:09.500 by way of almost an immune system between all of the plants

00:20:14.740 to decide that one gets dominance.

00:20:18.240 Now, I know that that has never been looked at scientifically.

00:20:21.880 I know that that has not been thought about scientifically as a chemical conversation that takes place in the soil.

00:20:31.260 I know that.

00:20:32.700 But I think and I have seen that phenomenon happen in the forest.

00:20:39.120 So you're asking me something that I don't have 100% answer for,

00:20:45.020 and I don't know if any of the U.S. forestry people have an answer for that,

00:20:49.600 And I don't even know if those experiments have been done.

00:20:54.040 But if there's any kids out there that want to do a master's degree, I think that would be an excellent master's degree to do.

00:21:01.960 And I think it should be done with all of the species that are being used in logging right now.

00:21:08.620 Well, thank you for going in depth with that, because it's definitely been a question on my mind

00:21:14.020 as I walk these forests that are struggling in some ways to come back,

00:21:20.200 but nonetheless are vigorous.

00:21:22.860 I want to make a comment to you about something else,

00:21:25.700 about the unity of being.

00:21:28.720 Now, we're going into a philosophy,

00:21:32.700 a whole different set of thinking here.

00:21:36.900 If you as a person, I don't wish this on you,

00:21:39.700 but let's say if you broke your leg, okay,

00:21:42.700 and your leg was a tiny bit shorter because of that break.

00:21:48.740 The body adjusts itself.

00:21:50.740 The body has a knowledge of unity.

00:21:54.140 Each organ has a knowledge of unity.

00:21:57.040 The tree itself has a knowledge of unity.

00:22:00.280 There is a thinking of unity within the tree.

00:22:04.040 Let's say, for instance, if you have a poor summer,

00:22:06.620 there will be less crop on the tree.

00:22:09.620 There is a phenomenon of chemical communication that takes place.

00:22:14.980 I think it takes place within our body.

00:22:17.840 I think it takes place within the trees.

00:22:20.340 The genome of the tree is greater than the human genome.

00:22:23.100 So it has every bit of capacity to be able to do that.

00:22:28.780 There is also something in the phenomenon of life

00:22:33.320 that around that question of unity

00:22:36.900 that we do not understand

00:22:38.940 and I know also has never

00:22:41.160 been looked at

00:22:41.960 Come where I am for me

00:22:58.320 She will call you from the winding

00:23:07.820 Come when I am for me

00:23:17.520 She will call you reminding

00:23:26.620 Come feel along your sides

00:23:34.860 The long, cold touch of current

00:23:40.440 Like a far-remembered life

00:23:46.420 Come quick into the now you hear

00:23:50.720 Cutting off from closer years

00:23:52.980 Bounding into heavy pouring sound

00:23:56.700 Come quick into the icy sting

00:23:59.760 Sharpen into everything

00:24:02.260 Pounding boundaries

00:24:05.840 Come well

00:24:16.580 And follow me

00:24:21.980 Unwinding

00:24:25.640 To the sea

00:24:30.740 Come way and follow me

00:24:41.180 Unwinding to be free

00:24:50.120 And call over the river

00:24:56.060 A man will answer

00:25:00.380 Cause he's thirsty

00:25:03.260 For a far-membered life

00:25:08.600 Of pulsing to a larger rhythm

00:25:12.920 Feeling things that now lie hidden

00:25:15.280 Clean and cold within

00:25:18.140 The liquid taste of leaf and rock

00:25:21.840 The time into a slower clock

00:25:24.280 Yearning for dampened, musty wood

00:25:30.080 Come when for me

00:25:43.340 She will call you

00:25:48.420 She knows

00:25:54.680 Come way and follow me 0.98

00:26:02.660 Come taste this life

00:26:07.700 And grow

00:26:18.420 you brought up the financial dilemmas and clear-cutting is pretty universally condemned

00:26:34.440 but selective logging is generally more acceptable but I was reading a document by

00:26:39.780 the Union of Concerned Scientists on tropical deforestation and they point out selective

00:26:45.640 logging in pristine forest often end up destroying the forest completely anyways whether the forest

00:26:52.960 is robbed of key trees fragmented by access roads leading to other exploitative activities such as

00:27:00.020 extraction mining over hunting which disturbs seed dispersal herbivory patterns and leads to further

00:27:09.080 harm and the money from the timber is often funneled into clearing for agriculture so what

00:27:15.480 are some economically feasible alternatives to chopping down trees that don't interrupt

00:27:20.800 the delicate balance of complex forest systems?

00:27:23.600 Let's look at the planet, all right? Yeah, I will give you an answer to that. The forests

00:27:29.300 of Brazil, the forests of America, the forests of the boreal system, the forests of Malaysia,

00:27:35.900 the forests of Australia, Tasmania, up on the east coast of Australia, they perform

00:27:43.280 an ecosystem and an eco-function for the whole of the planet.

00:27:49.120 Those forests reduce pollution on a global scale.

00:27:53.700 They oxygenate the planet on a global scale.

00:27:58.600 It would behoove us to pay the people of the Brazilian forests,

00:28:04.460 the people of the boreal, the people of other great forests,

00:28:08.260 as a taxation from us to them to keep them going

00:28:14.180 because they have an eco-function for the planet

00:28:17.780 and to not cut them off and not put roads in

00:28:21.060 and not do mining in these areas,

00:28:23.060 but keep the forests as they stand

00:28:26.520 because the function of the forest for the great oceans

00:28:30.060 and for the atmosphere have a greater effect on all of us

00:28:35.160 and all of our health sitting in the ground.

00:28:39.260 And I add my name to those scientists

00:28:41.480 because they're absolutely right.

00:28:43.820 We need to have funding, global funding,

00:28:47.580 maybe a global community to take care of this.

00:28:51.780 Absolutely. You're so right.

00:28:54.660 We need a global strategy of Earth stewardship

00:28:58.420 to keep the Great Forest standing at any cost.

00:29:01.600 and unfortunately money is still the universal language. So in terms of economics, you've written

00:29:09.180 quite a bit about the astounding health benefits of nuts and the famine protection nut trees offer.

00:29:15.620 So do you see that, i.e. perennial agriculture, as an economic alternative for the purveyors of

00:29:23.680 deforestation? Or where are the opportunities to sort of derail the timber industry's rampage

00:29:31.060 and inject this ethic into the situation?

00:29:34.800 I would think that the logging companies should put money into R&D.

00:29:39.360 I think they should put money into somatic cloning

00:29:41.700 because I know that this has not happened in this way.

00:29:45.060 They should put money into special trees that have super long fibers,

00:29:49.300 that the fibers can last for reuse and reuse of paper.

00:29:53.800 The phenomenon of that is there, actually,

00:29:57.100 and I suggest they put money into that

00:29:59.360 and put aside forests as a bio-planned forest for the production of paper.

00:30:05.100 They themselves be responsible for that and not take down wild forests.

00:30:10.420 I mean, we do need wood, we do need paper,

00:30:12.920 but we have to apply our intelligence to it.

00:30:16.420 And by cloning, and I'm talking about somatic cloning,

00:30:21.000 I'm not talking about GMO trees, 0.86

00:30:23.340 I'm talking about somatic clones which are like taking a piece of your own skin 0.95

00:30:28.460 and that has the DNA identity of you. 0.95

00:30:31.960 I'm not talking about changing you.

00:30:34.060 I'm talking about doing hybrid vigor

00:30:36.600 and also somatic cloning of really special trees

00:30:40.080 because they are out there.

00:30:41.600 I have identified some of these species,

00:30:44.020 taking them, cloning them,

00:30:45.700 using them as cloned forests for industry.

00:30:49.260 And maybe they can get grants

00:30:50.920 for sequestering the atmosphere of carbon dioxide

00:30:54.340 as well as their industrial monies coming in.

00:30:57.780 But the idea of taking down all the virgin forests with all of the species, the biodiversity that goes with it, then poisoning the soil with pesticides, poisoning the oceans with pesticides, is simply not in right now.

00:31:11.160 We have too many people on this planet, and we have to have a sustainable method of looking after things.

00:31:18.060 It's not just I will say that.

00:31:20.440 Fairly soon, all the people on the planet will be saying this.

00:31:24.300 So we've got to use our heads. We've got to have some global thinking about this. And one person with a greedy eyeball cannot be that person who decides everything for everybody. It can't go that way.

00:31:37.340 Well, I'm in total agreement with you. And what comes to mind is the Tongass National Forest in Alaska. And this incredible old growth temperate rainforest has been cut down for years for toilet paper and paper pulp. And it's so heart wrenching because they are still logging for the next 10 years.

00:32:01.080 But it's not even good paper policy. We cannot sell off the growth rights of these trees that we as a whole global community need for toilet paper. It's absolutely ridiculous. It's like taking a baby and giving birth to a child and feeding the child some kind of sticky, sweet fluid and expecting the child to grow and be healthy and good.

00:32:28.500 You can't do it. I mean, it's illogical at the very best. And what it is, is we're all standing silent. We're all standing and we're being silent witnesses to these things that are happening when everybody knows this is a really stupid thing to do.

00:32:45.600 I'm not saying that these people can't have, you know, the pulp that they need. 0.85

00:32:50.640 Well, go and grow the pulp, and then you'll find how valuable it is.

00:32:55.500 And recycle everything, then you'll find how valuable it is.

00:33:00.220 If you put your elbow grease into the growing of the trees,

00:33:03.800 then you might have a little bit more respect for what you're puffing down.

00:33:07.440 Yes, and what would you say the most critical tree species are

00:33:12.780 to repopulate depleted forests with, especially going into climate chaos.

00:33:17.740 And, of course, each bioregion will be different.

00:33:20.800 So if you could speak to a few different bioregions.

00:33:23.980 Well, I have in the app.

00:33:26.640 I have identified all the bioregions in the app.

00:33:29.780 And wherever you are, actually, there is a geopositioning for wherever you are for the app,

00:33:35.140 and then you'll know what kind of trees to grow.

00:33:37.780 That's a very wide question.

00:33:39.280 and they're the dominant species.

00:33:41.320 Like for Europe, it would be Quercus robur.

00:33:44.340 For the West Coast here,

00:33:46.480 one of the species would be the Quercus macrocarpa, the bar oak.

00:33:50.900 And really, honestly, I think in California,

00:33:53.320 one of them that should be one of the most important species

00:33:56.320 is the Quercus godlessi, your blue oak.

00:33:58.980 And why I think the blue oak is very important

00:34:01.120 for the base of the Sierra Nevada hills

00:34:03.400 is that its blue character can reflect sun in a different way

00:34:07.160 and those trees are much more drought resistant so we're looking at really really strong droughts

00:34:12.520 and increasing droughts for california and that species will will actually withstand that and

00:34:17.600 actually help to to cope with the drought so it's a huge that's a huge question actually

00:34:23.240 that i think would take me hours to answer but the answers are there in the app

00:34:29.800 Yes, of course, I did realize that. And this is another large question, but hopefully a bit more directed. E.O. Wilson, who you've mentioned, is proposing his much anticipated new book, Half Earth, that will set aside half the planet to be free of modern human activity and development, as I understand it.

00:34:51.740 And in North America, we are lucky enough to have a big head start with large chunks

00:34:56.600 of the Rocky Mountains, the Appalachian Mountains, and the northern boreal forest

00:35:00.960 relatively intact. And you've written a book, Arboretum Borealis, about the importance of

00:35:06.680 boreal forest for climate stabilization and health. So how do you see boreal forest contributing to

00:35:12.500 a global conservation plan? And what are your thoughts about half-earth? First of all, for the

00:35:18.760 boreal forest, if the boreal forest comes down, there will be so much tonnage of carbon into the

00:35:24.760 air that we will have difficulty having oxygen also in the atmosphere. Our oxygen levels will

00:35:31.280 go very, very, very low because we have carbon not just in the trees. We have the ability to

00:35:39.420 pick up nitrogen in the lichen formation on the forest floor. The trees of the boreal are all

00:35:46.640 covered with lichens and lichens have a very very distinct effect on the atmosphere as they actually

00:35:53.500 clean the atmosphere and then we have the benthic regions of the boreal forest which are the forest

00:35:59.900 the accumulation of carbon to carbon the phenolic graves that are up there which are of immense

00:36:06.560 immense area and they have not been broken down and so if that forest comes down the sunlight

00:36:13.040 will go on that and then the phenolic race will be broken down the amount of carbon dioxide going

00:36:18.600 into the atmosphere i think would be very very difficult to measure it would create havoc for

00:36:24.840 this planet so i think the boreal forest has got to be protected and i've actually been active in

00:36:30.920 doing that in part of the canadian boreal forest system now with regard to what eo wilson says

00:36:37.060 half and half it used to be long ago here when i came here the old farmers had the idea of a third

00:36:45.160 and a third and a third right i mean it's kind of going with what he always saying a third for me

00:36:51.240 a third for the wildlife and a third to go ruin and that was the ratio for the old ratio for north

00:36:58.040 america so i would say his idea is a darn good one i'm looking forward to his book um i think it's

00:37:06.420 one way to go yeah it is an interesting way to think about it especially as more and more people

00:37:13.760 are moving into urban areas and a lot of farmland and rural countryside is being abandoned in some

00:37:21.520 ways and oh it's not being abandoned you've got the big farmers you've got the industrial farmers

00:37:27.640 coming in and the industrial farmers are draining soil and they're putting huge drainage tiles into

00:37:34.560 the soil and what that is doing is activating the movement of water out of the soil and that's

00:37:40.380 going into the streams and the rivers and it's carrying a pile of pesticides with it that's going

00:37:45.960 out into the great oceans and it is the nitrogen in that water from the soil is actually adding to

00:37:52.400 the nitrogen of the oceans which in turn is causing graveyards of the sea and that is causing algal

00:37:59.740 blooms the algal blooms are producing toxic material it is very very bad in the Gulf of Eden

00:38:05.060 and the algal blooms are then attacked by bacteria which kill down the algal blooms and then you have

00:38:14.260 a hypoxic huge hypoxic area of the ocean that means an ocean area without oxygen and the fish

00:38:23.200 start to go through there and then there's what we know as a fish kill all the fish die in that

00:38:29.420 area and the numbers and areas of the ocean being affected by that type of industrial farming is

00:38:36.740 phenomenal and it is kind of the secret of the planet and it's growing at a very high rate

00:38:42.720 yeah you point your finger you point your finger to these farming practices we have to live

00:38:47.480 sustainably we only have a limited set of land this is our home we have so much here it is not

00:38:56.980 an infinite planet. It is a finite planet for every single mineral, for every tree, for all

00:39:03.560 the trees, for all the ocean, for all the soils. So we've got to be sensible, all of us.

00:39:09.240 And what do you see as a sensible form of agriculture for the growing population?

00:39:15.760 Well, they did it in Cuba, you know. I mean, in Cuba, they brought in organic methods. This is

00:39:22.200 many years ago and people

00:39:24.240 started growing their own veggies and

00:39:26.120 they were hungry for a while

00:39:28.160 their calorific intake was reduced

00:39:30.460 but we can have our own

00:39:32.320 gardens, we can

00:39:34.000 grow our own veggies, we can

00:39:36.260 also buy some of them, swap them

00:39:38.160 barter and that's one way

00:39:40.200 of doing it and also

00:39:42.240 an idea that I have that I'd love to

00:39:44.400 if I had money I would love to put it

00:39:46.220 into action is micro

00:39:47.400 robotic systems for our gardens

00:39:50.260 let's say for instance you could plant

00:39:51.900 one acre of corn or one acre of wheat,

00:39:56.440 a durum wheat, let's say, for instance,

00:39:58.140 and grow enough for yourself, for your flower, for your house.

00:40:01.880 I mean, and put out the robot out there,

00:40:05.300 just switch on the solar power on it

00:40:07.120 and get it to cut and harvest a batch of wheat.

00:40:09.660 We can do these things.

00:40:11.520 I mean, they're fairly simple to do.

00:40:13.260 There are lots of robots in Japan.

00:40:15.380 It's just a matter of having imagination.

00:40:17.600 We have to have imagination around the questions

00:40:21.400 that we are asking and have imagination for our answers.

00:40:25.800 And, you know, we have it, you have it, I have it.

00:40:28.240 The kids out there are phenomenal.

00:40:30.560 We've got some really smart kids out there on the horizon.

00:40:34.140 We've got to support them with education.

00:40:36.640 So it's kind of what goes around comes around.

00:40:39.640 It's not the wealthiest kids who have the smartest ideas.

00:40:43.100 It's the ones who, you know, kind of grovel along and have a really tough time.

00:40:48.560 They are the most imaginative kids.

00:40:50.220 Einstein said that for a scientist, the greatest gift any scientist can offer the world is his imagination, or her imagination.

00:41:03.480 And in science, if you don't have imagination, just go off and do something else, because it is the art of science that is so important.

00:41:14.000 And he really understood that.

00:41:15.540 And as a matter of fact, so does Leo Wilson.

00:41:17.940 well i love that you bring up children and respect their instinctual wisdom

00:41:24.400 and just i've read that you made the observation that children naturally object to the harming of

00:41:31.880 trees and see very plainly the madness of cutting these beings that they see as friends

00:41:37.540 and it seems that um as children we have an innate love of the forest and the natural world

00:41:47.060 and somewhere along the way for some of us that that turns off or something happens where we lose

00:41:54.540 that intimate connection and the love a child a child i think has a greater sensitivity and

00:42:03.780 sensibility to infrasound i think a child's eyes when they after they're born i think we

00:42:11.120 undergrade them we don't give them the degree of intelligence that they do have and the ability to

00:42:17.420 learn that they have we don't as a society pick them up and give them all of the things that they

00:42:25.100 need to be given and i'm not talking about the rich people's children i'm talking about everybody's

00:42:30.780 child is really the responsibility of all of the community and for children now it's the community

00:42:38.120 of the world, and we need to hold them up, and while they are very young, they are already

00:42:45.120 in love with nature, because they hear things and know things that we don't still understand.

00:42:52.640 A child, a baby, will recognize the gender of another child by its cry, male or female,

00:43:01.840 even though you may not be able to figure it out, a kid can do it.

00:43:05.560 They are extraordinary, but we have all of the blending of our children, all the races and blending, that's hybrid figure.

00:43:14.240 That means our kids are really seriously smart now.

00:43:18.360 So we should pull up our sleeves and kind of go to it and educate them.

00:43:22.940 And I think we'll come out with some wonderful, fabulous answers from all of them.

00:43:27.900 Where is my harmony?

00:43:35.560 Where is my friend Her voice I hear loud and clear

00:43:49.240 Only now in my head When did the time become

00:44:01.500 Something that I feel

00:44:07.200 And now as I disappear

00:44:15.800 Someone else becomes real

00:44:20.620 As real as the smallest thought

00:44:28.900 Born into a child

00:44:34.220 It's known that the tiny seed

00:44:43.180 Is both simple and wild

00:44:47.700 I wish you were here with me

00:44:55.180 But you're too far away

00:45:01.160 Standing beside me now

00:45:10.680 With nothing to say

00:45:14.720 I wish that somehow you knew

00:45:22.160 Just how much you mean

00:45:27.700 That I could be for you

00:45:37.740 What you are for me

00:45:41.880 What you are for me

00:45:48.780 Where is my harmony? Where is my friend? Her voice I hear loud and clear only now in my head.

00:46:18.780 When did the time become something that we feel and know as we disappear, something else becomes real.

00:46:48.780 just to kind of hone the conversation back to the bio plan as i'm so grateful that

00:47:06.160 your solutions are not only philosophical and you do give people actual tangible

00:47:13.980 solutions like planting trees for everyone every single person planting a tree and I just

00:47:20.920 want to just reach out to the people in urban centers because I have had some urbanites talk

00:47:28.500 to me and feel a bit excluded because they don't have access to land for gardens even so I just

00:47:37.320 want to maybe give a note of how every person can be included in the reforestation of our world and

00:47:45.500 any tips for people that don't have access to their own land but can still be involved and

00:47:52.300 fruitful in this process. Well I think we have to have urban forests. In Ottawa here our ash trees

00:48:00.540 are all dying. And a couple of years ago, I was instrumental in pulling together the

00:48:07.940 money, and I didn't take anything for it for the city, to read Canopy the City, but

00:48:11.960 that's an opportunity to actually put in trees that are really significantly important

00:48:17.460 in the city. And I look upon them as the urban forest. Now, my last book, The Sweetness

00:48:23.060 of a Simple Life, I've got a full one-third part of that book on the urban forest. And

00:48:28.920 The urban forest is very, very important.

00:48:31.580 I think people living in an urban environment can participate in this.

00:48:35.860 I think the trees can be put in.

00:48:37.840 They're being put in really in all over the world, a serious forested area.

00:48:43.320 It's not really happened too much in the United States, but it will happen.

00:48:47.260 And I think people have a hand in the trees and the forests around them.

00:48:52.120 Now, all cities have park areas, and the parks can be replanted into forested systems.

00:48:57.560 You know, you have the Central Park in New York, and I call that, I don't call it Central Park, I call it Liberty Park, because you go into Liberty Park and people feel free.

00:49:11.620 It is an actual phenomenon to me to see people playing music in these parks and doing all the things they want to do.

00:49:18.780 Everybody needs a place to go and roll around in the grass.

00:49:22.720 So I think it's the city fathers that these people need to talk about.

00:49:27.920 And if some areas are taken down in the city, leave them as grassy areas, leave them as forested areas.

00:49:35.020 The people in cities have more power than what they think.

00:49:39.860 Well, that's a good reminder to get people out of their apartments and connecting back to the trees around them

00:49:48.340 and showing some love and gratitude for the courageous plants and birds and pollinators that go into the cities.

00:49:57.880 Yeah, yeah. The concrete jungle can be redesigned. It absolutely can be redesigned.

00:50:03.440 But what's happened in the last 50 years is nobody was thinking in terms of pattern language.

00:50:09.300 Nobody was thinking in terms of the pattern of life for a city.

00:50:12.960 Because the more beauty and the more trees you have in a city, the better the people will be.

00:50:17.740 the less criminal behavior there will be

00:50:21.040 and the more buying happens for the shopkeepers

00:50:24.300 and for the businesses of the city.

00:50:27.100 So it's a win-win situation for all around within the city itself.

00:50:32.280 And I see no reason why there can't be an urban forest.

00:50:35.740 I can't see any reason why there wouldn't be an urban city forest.

00:50:39.840 So it's a matter of turning on your heel

00:50:43.580 and looking around you and seeing what can I do to help here.

00:50:47.360 And I do realize and I do recognize, and I'm not being flippant, that a lot of people living in cities seriously want to help, to help the global forest. And I think maybe you can and will be able to do that in the future. I don't have the magic plan for you right now, but I think it might be coming.

00:51:06.220 well again we'll all be looking forward to any plan and vision that you have because you are

00:51:12.620 such a wellspring of of the future and i'm so grateful to speak with you and to have this time

00:51:20.980 and i don't know if you would like to end on anything or if you feel good about where we've

00:51:25.560 gone but i'm just completely floored by everything you've said well i i would like for people to i

00:51:34.340 would like for people to read Arboretum America, A Philosophy of the Forest. I would like them to

00:51:40.120 read Arboretum Borealis, A Lifeline of the Planet. I would like them to read The Global Forest

00:51:46.040 and The Sweetness of a Simple Life, because the sweetness of a simple life is simplifying your

00:51:52.160 life. We can do marvelous things with simple way of thinking. You can be rich in what you don't

00:51:59.340 want so you don't have to go out and buy them go to the library get them out of the library and

00:52:04.400 just lollygag through those books and you will find there's some really good health tips for you

00:52:10.080 that are very very cheap then there's also the garden for life for people who love gardening

00:52:15.360 and you can just lollygag through them and pick up tips and they will help you in your life and

00:52:21.680 that's what i can offer you i'm offering it to you from here from my garden and really from my heart

00:52:28.420 well i feel your heart so vibrantly thank you diana you're welcome you're so welcome

00:52:37.320 and we will be holding hands all across the world yes yes i think we're going to be we're

00:52:43.800 under the radar we're going to pop our heads up and it's going to surprise a lot of politicians

00:52:48.920 well i like the sound of that i like the sound of that a lot yes we are

00:52:56.300 Mm-hmm. Traveling in the world.

00:53:26.300 The leaves and branches are

00:53:30.280 Where the animals may dwell

00:53:39.160 Now turn on the stream and throw in some rocks

00:53:49.360 Release honeybees and a growling fox

00:53:55.240 A pear toast for flowers

00:53:58.360 And a mark for the tree

00:54:25.240 Thank you for listening to this continuation of a talk with Diana Beresford-Kroger on Unlearn

00:54:46.820 and Rewild.

00:54:47.760 I'm Ayanna Young, broadcasting from the Redwood Forests of Mendocino, California, at the

00:54:54.420 site of a project deeply inspired by Diana's work and the work of others, and that is a native plants

00:55:00.360 and fungi reserve and propagation initiative to protect the future of the ancient forests and

00:55:06.000 their genetic vitality. We are planning large-scale restoration programs with carefully selected

00:55:12.400 genotypes from old-growth mother trees, as Diana calls them, which are unfortunately the first to

00:55:19.860 fall on behalf of the timber industry. This is an open source grassroots movement and you can join

00:55:26.700 us by going out and finding the last mother tree still standing in your area and gathering their

00:55:32.840 seeds then caring for those seedlings and sharing them in your communities and sharing this burning

00:55:39.860 vision to replant the global forests and beyond your communities if you can join the efforts to

00:55:47.840 conserve what precious little intact ancient forest we have left. This summer, March and I

00:55:54.580 are focusing on the incredibly significant ancient coastal rainforests in Alaska that are being cut

00:56:00.920 as we speak. We will be filming a documentary short and bringing more international attention

00:56:07.020 to this area, which is a treasure chest of forest wisdom and a unique wildlife arc.

00:56:12.460 If you listen hard, you may be able to hear the thunderclap of those trees

00:56:18.180 and all the dear mother trees coming down.

00:56:22.040 For all who draw breath, this is our unifying call, the call of the forest.

00:56:33.640 Sign up for our mobilized newswire to stay abreast of these initiatives and others.

00:56:38.160 And please donate if you can.

00:56:39.480 not only to help this radio program continue

00:56:42.440 but also to support

00:56:44.160 this native plant nursery and birth

00:56:45.800 I'd like to thank our producer

00:56:48.280 March Young and all whose music

00:56:50.440 we heard, beginning with the

00:56:52.160 Humpback Whale, recorded 45

00:56:54.160 years ago by Dr. Roger Payne

00:56:56.560 Leafcutter John

00:56:58.460 with the song, Let It Begin

00:57:00.480 Linda Perhax

00:57:02.540 with The Call of the River

00:57:04.040 Angel Olson

00:57:06.000 with The Tiniest Seed

00:57:07.520 and Kate Wolfe with our theme song, Like a River.

00:57:11.920 We'll be back next week for a conversation

00:57:14.500 with the Green Party candidate for President of the United States.

00:57:20.400 Sweet smell the pine, tall western cedar

00:57:25.820 Drifting on the wind, through the mountains like a river

00:57:31.820 Sweet smell of pine, tall western cedar

00:57:37.820 Drifting on the wind, through the mountains like a river

For The Wild - April 04, 2016

DIANA BERESFORD-KROEGER on Replanting the Global Forest, Part Two ⧸33

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