For The Wild - May 08, 2019


Dr. VANDANA SHIVA on the Emancipation of Seed, Water and Women ⌠ENCORE⌡ ⧸118

Topics
JAMES BALOG on The Human Element ⧸117 JOHN A. POWELL on Institutions of Othering and Radical Belonging ⧸119

Episode Stats


Length

57 minutes

Words per minute

150.66

Word count

8,616

Sentence count

416

Harmful content

Misogyny

13

sentences flagged

Toxicity

6

sentences flagged

Hate speech

29

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
00:00:00.000 This podcast is brought to you through support from our partner, the Kaliapaya Foundation.
00:00:05.120 The Kaliapaya Foundation envisions a future grounded in compassion, respect, dignity,
00:00:11.100 reverence for nature, and care for each other in the earth.
00:00:13.960 To learn more, visit Kaliapaya.org.
00:00:17.140 Hey, for the wild community, I am so happy to be resharing this incredible conversation
00:00:23.460 with Vandana Shiva, recorded back in the old unlearn and rewild days.
00:00:29.020 and the reason that we decided to re-release this episode now is because I have the incredible honor
00:00:37.600 of actually being on a panel with one of my sheroes, Vandana, and Paul Stamets at Lightning
00:00:43.820 in a Bottle this coming weekend. It honestly feels surreal to be on this panel this weekend
00:00:50.300 because I still remember driving up to the top of the mountain in our old land cruiser with our
00:00:57.040 little my fi trying to get a good signal to even record the bandana episode so it's just
00:01:03.960 an incredible full circle to be able to be with her and paul and i also wanted to give a shout
00:01:10.780 out to lightning in a bottle and living village culture who puts on the compass at lightning in
00:01:16.200 a bottle which is just an incredible space for learning and education and connecting in this
00:01:23.780 energized, intense festival setting. So if any of y'all are there, I hope to see you. I'll have a
00:01:31.320 keynote on Friday called Wild Revolution, and then I'll have my panel with Paul and Bandana on
00:01:35.820 Saturday. So come say hello, and otherwise, we are planning to get some recorded content from
00:01:43.560 the weekend, and we'll hope to share it with you soon. All right, enjoy the magnificent Bandana
00:01:51.020 Shiva. Hello, Dr. Vandana Shiva. Welcome. Thank you so much for being here. Hi. One of the great
00:02:00.240 features of this biodiversity web is that it acts as a safety net. It helps life adjust to
00:02:07.740 an ever-changing climate. And as the mood swings of the climate intensify, many species won't
00:02:14.420 survive. An estimated half of all species will disappear this century if we fail to act
00:02:20.860 meaningfully. But the more species that do make it, the better the chances of entire ecosystems
00:02:27.060 surviving. So Dr. Shiva, through your organization Navdanya, you've set up seed banks all over India
00:02:34.520 to preserve genetics of plants. So in your view, why is biodiversity so crucial? And beyond starting
00:02:41.980 seed banks, what can be done on a global level to preserve biodiversity? As you said, biodiversity
00:02:48.720 is the potential of life to adapt. And we've set up community seed banks to really create a base
00:02:56.800 of another agriculture that is biodiversity-based. Because what is called agriculture today is not
00:03:02.900 agriculture. It's not the culture of the soil. It's not a culture of the land. It's the culture
00:03:07.600 of oil and fossil fuels, which is why I wrote Soil Not Oil. 40% of the emissions that are
00:03:15.280 creating instability in the climate and pushing us to climate chaos of the kind that creates
00:03:22.280 disasters that have already become real, taking lives, destroying ecosystems, destroying food
00:03:29.260 and crops. 40% of that problem lies in an agriculture which destroyed biodiversity,
00:03:37.120 replaced the functions of biodiversity, whether it was renewing fertility or keeping a balance
00:03:44.540 between insects and friendly pests, allowing pollinators to thrive. That destruction of
00:03:52.060 biodiversity was always justified in the name of increasing food production. I have spent the last
00:03:57.220 30 years of my life, since the problem started in Punjab, to both understand what went wrong
00:04:03.500 and to try and build alternatives. So what went wrong is what I call the monoculture of the mind, 1.00
00:04:09.000 which comes out of an industrial culture, a fossil fuel culture, pretends to be more productive,
00:04:14.440 but is actually destroying the potential of the land and ecosystems to provide.
00:04:20.700 The more we save biodiversity, the more the land provides. Our work has shown that we can produce
00:04:26.420 more food in our food for two planets and better food not nutritionally empty toxic food while we
00:04:34.180 leave the biodiversity for all species to thrive not in tiny areas of wilderness but we bring the
00:04:41.880 wild into farming i call open pollinated seeds the rewilding of seeds i call biodiversity
00:04:49.460 intensive agriculture which has flourishing and teeming microorganisms in the soil our farm has
00:04:56.540 six times more pollinators than the forest next door and of course gm crops allow no pollinators
00:05:02.220 at all our studies have shown so it's not the case that it just separates islands of wilderness
00:05:08.480 why we destroy the planet the foolish idea that we're providing more for humans in fact we are
00:05:14.300 providing nothing for humans either while taking the planet away from other species and i think
00:05:19.380 it is time to overcome this artificial
00:05:21.320 divide. I think it's time for
00:05:23.360 movements to overcome the divide between
00:05:25.280 climate change and biodiversity,
00:05:27.680 erosion and extinction. The
00:05:29.340 same problems that lead to climate change
00:05:31.600 are pushing species to extinction.
00:05:33.720 The same actions that will protect
00:05:35.280 the species' diversity
00:05:36.680 will also address climate change.
00:05:40.220 With all the modified
00:05:41.600 genetics in the world, you know,
00:05:43.160 thousands of plant varieties in trial,
00:05:45.700 legally or otherwise, 0.99
00:05:46.880 kawaii actually comes to mind just thinking of the horror of so many gmos being tested there 1.00
00:05:54.220 and there's also gm animals and gm trees all cross-pollinating with natives so i'm wondering 0.98
00:06:01.520 will everything become contaminated or are certain plant families immune because they're
00:06:07.840 sexually incompatible with gm plants what are the prospects for uncontaminated life on earth
00:06:15.000 Well, the first is that very few crops are genetically modified, and they're in very
00:06:22.680 few countries.
00:06:24.480 Of course, the industry would like to pollute and contaminate everything, but they aren't
00:06:29.460 intelligent, they aren't smart, they might call themselves smart, but a technology that
00:06:35.140 could only introduce two traits, both toxic, BT traits and herbicide resistance traits,
00:06:41.240 Both are putting toxic genes into plants.
00:06:44.120 In four crops, who creates four crops?
00:06:48.560 A handful of companies, largely one, is not a very stable way to do agriculture.
00:06:54.160 So most other crops at this point are not genetically engineered.
00:06:58.920 In any case, there are some.
00:07:00.560 I love the millets.
00:07:01.720 I love the small millets.
00:07:03.040 The reason millets are called millets is because each seed gives a million seeds.
00:07:08.620 They're tiny little grains.
00:07:09.900 industry has a very tough time
00:07:12.060 manipulating these grains 0.99
00:07:13.480 and they anyway are ignorant 0.78
00:07:16.280 about the diversity people eat 0.92
00:07:18.160 so the more diverse
00:07:19.660 our agriculture
00:07:21.380 the more protected we are
00:07:24.020 the more
00:07:25.800 resilient our agriculture
00:07:27.960 through diversity, the more it will
00:07:30.140 protect our crops, if all you're growing
00:07:31.980 is corn and you have a
00:07:34.140 GM corn neighbor, your corn will be
00:07:35.960 contaminated, but if your corn
00:07:37.980 field is like our cornfields at the farm, full of beans and full of okra and full of
00:07:44.220 nine or ten other crops, that contamination risk goes down. So whichever way you look
00:07:50.420 at it, diversity is our insurance, but we can't then say, oh, that'll take care. We
00:07:57.240 have to function as earth citizens. And that's why I talk of earth democracy. We have a duty
00:08:04.060 to stop this violence against the earth.
00:08:07.280 We have a duty to stop the creation 0.99
00:08:09.860 of what I call a seed slavery 0.80
00:08:11.640 and a food dictatorship. 0.83
00:08:13.800 To push poisons everywhere, 0.87
00:08:16.000 genetic contamination and pollution everywhere,
00:08:18.720 just so one company can harvest super profits
00:08:22.140 through collection of royalties,
00:08:23.840 often illegal, as in the case of India,
00:08:26.300 which has pushed the cotton farmers to suicide. 0.79
00:08:29.360 And 84% of the suicides among cotton farmers
00:08:32.080 because of debt, because of GMO cotton, 95% of the cotton in India is now controlled through
00:08:40.120 Monsanto licensing, and they harvest the royalties. So we are talking about an ecocidal
00:08:45.080 and genocidal system. Ecocidal because it is destroying biodiversity. Genocidal because humans
00:08:52.060 are part of that web of biodiversity. Economies rest on ecology, and every system of technology
00:08:59.780 and economics that destroys the biodiversity of life on Earth
00:09:03.020 also destroys those who depend on it.
00:09:06.660 So you began fighting for seed freedom when you realized that
00:09:10.080 the forces of globalization control seed.
00:09:13.620 And you've even compared this seed slavery to human slavery.
00:09:18.840 Plants are denied their ecological purpose and turned into food machines,
00:09:23.440 just like farm animals.
00:09:25.100 And in such a way that squanders soil and water,
00:09:28.460 fossil fuels and habitat so can you speak about how colonialism the caste system
00:09:36.320 the social ladder and and all the systems of dominance spill over to our treatment of the
00:09:41.880 natural world it is because hierarchies that have no place in an earth family that have no place in
00:09:50.800 a human family have been artificially constructed through systems of power and then being naturalized
00:09:58.440 whether it is the domination of patriarchal structures over women or it is the domination
00:10:05.580 of capital and those who control capital because capital is a nothing. Capital is a construct
00:10:11.540 but there are people who control capital. There are people who create corporations. There are
00:10:15.700 people who hide behind the corporate form and harvest those super profits. They have literally
00:10:21.180 absorbed every hierarchy of the past, whether it be casteism. In my view, it's a casteism which says
00:10:31.160 farmers don't breed, even though every seed used by the industry has come from farmers, often
00:10:36.600 pirated. But in any case, all evolution begins from nature is continued by farmers. And then
00:10:43.580 there's a little tinkering, normally negative from the perspective of farmers and from the
00:10:48.440 perspective of nature. Feudalism, which we got rid of, is coming back in the system. Slavery
00:10:56.380 of the worst kind, which is making people slaves, but is making all life enslaved. And that's why
00:11:05.340 I just pour all my breathing, you know, living time, probably even my sleeping time, because,
00:11:11.780 you know, consciousness doesn't sleep, to put an end to the slavery.
00:11:16.380 you've alleged that monsanto uses the guise of humanitarianism to circumvent import restrictions
00:11:24.340 on gmos for example in orissa india following the 1999 cyclone and in haiti following the
00:11:30.980 earthquake so can you explain how the biotech industry employs this kind of disaster capitalism
00:11:40.040 and how it is patenting thousands of climate-resilient food varieties
00:11:45.820 to profit from climate destabilization.
00:11:50.140 I have witnessed in the last decade and more
00:11:55.260 that every time there is a disaster,
00:11:58.640 it could be an earthquake, it could be a super cyclone,
00:12:02.220 it could be a drought.
00:12:04.320 Monsanto is there to push its GM seeds or its GM crops.
00:12:09.320 In India, they couldn't have pushed the seeds at that time because the laws didn't allow it.
00:12:12.700 So they used the U.S. government and CARE and other agencies to try and push the rice eaters of Orisa to eat corn and soya blend.
00:12:22.520 And the farmers and those displaced complained to us and said, we can't eat the stuff.
00:12:27.480 So I took samples, had it tested.
00:12:29.160 It was GMO, totally illegal, wrote to the health ministry.
00:12:32.460 It was banned from imports because it was illegal.
00:12:35.040 And yet the narrative that's created by Monsanto and its lobbyists is I prevented people from eating.
00:12:40.680 No, what we did was distribute rice, not just rice to eat, but seeds of salt tolerant rice, which we had conserved in our seed banks so that farmers could grow rice in spite of the salt.
00:12:53.080 And then the farmers of Orissa gave that rice when the tsunami destroyed agriculture in Tamil Nadu, two truckloads of seed gifts.
00:13:03.280 We've had an earthquake in Nepal.
00:13:06.400 And we were asked by farmers of Nepal to send them seeds because 50% seed is destroyed.
00:13:12.300 Monsanto, I'm sure their hand is in it, tried to pass rules to say only Monsanto and its subsidiary seeds can be distributed.
00:13:20.060 It took us 10 days to work through this corruption to get open pollinated seeds to the farmers who had lost everything and needed to rebuild their lives.
00:13:32.640 In terms of then trying to patent the very seeds that can allow people to rebuild and rejuvenate their lives after disasters, there are three myths being spread.
00:13:44.420 First, that only genetic engineering can put salt tolerance and flood tolerance and drought tolerance genes.
00:13:51.180 Why is that a false statement?
00:13:53.580 It's false because any complex trait like climate resilience is a multi-genetic trait.
00:14:00.240 genetic engineering only uses single gene transfers. It doesn't have the capacity
00:14:06.840 to introduce these multigenetic traits. These traits are introduced from pirated varieties
00:14:12.820 and then all kinds of languages created to make it look like an invention. The 1,500 patterns
00:14:20.180 on climate resilient crops are basically a result of piracy. And all they do is read the genome
00:14:28.060 of varieties already known to be soul-tolerant and take a pattern,
00:14:33.300 just like in colonialism, the colonizers would take a map,
00:14:37.560 draw lines across it and say, this is mine, this is yours,
00:14:40.480 England, you take this, France, you take this, Belgium, you take this. 0.67
00:14:43.440 Now they are drawing lines around life and chopping up life for their ownership.
00:14:50.900 It's partly because my love for life is so deep,
00:14:54.940 my awareness of the gifts of life have grown so much the more I have studied processes of ecology
00:15:03.620 and the lies of the biotech industry at every step, especially in times of climate change.
00:15:11.660 Monsanto has bought up the single largest climate data corporation. It has bought up the single
00:15:18.480 largest soil data corporations. They are imagining a world where they will have total control
00:15:24.080 on all knowledge
00:15:25.520 and they actually talk
00:15:26.520 of big data
00:15:27.180 meaning big brains.
00:15:28.800 No, big data
00:15:29.800 means empty brains
00:15:30.780 because you have no idea
00:15:31.620 what you're doing.
00:15:32.420 All you have
00:15:32.800 is lots of numbers.
00:15:39.580 A strange form of life
00:15:42.980 kicking through windows
00:15:44.800 rolling on yards
00:15:47.080 hitting in loved ones
00:15:51.380 Triggering lies
00:15:55.340 A strange one
00:15:59.820 Many radical thinkers believe that
00:16:07.320 with the advent of agriculture,
00:16:09.880 of taming wild plants,
00:16:12.380 humanity embarked on what has become
00:16:14.480 a war on nature.
00:16:17.280 Mark Shepard, author of Restoration Agriculture,
00:16:19.500 says that annual agriculture constantly beats down nature as every year farmers basically
00:16:26.120 clear-cut the land. So I'm curious about reconciling food needs with the need for wild
00:16:33.580 habitat. Conservation Patagonia comes to mind. They conserve wild land and then buffer it with
00:16:39.380 organic farms. So in your view, what are some ways to integrate food production with the dire need
00:16:47.600 to protect and restore land?
00:16:50.640 Well, I have to say a lot of friends in the West
00:16:53.540 who work on nature conservation
00:16:54.760 have a very wrong reading of agriculture.
00:16:58.500 They assume that violence against nature in agriculture
00:17:01.540 began when agriculture started, which is not at all true.
00:17:04.600 It started when the tools of war
00:17:06.680 after the Second World War
00:17:08.600 were introduced to make agriculture industrial.
00:17:11.200 Why do I say that?
00:17:12.100 I say that because the farms of the Western Ghats
00:17:17.140 because they had even more diversity sometimes than Ashola Forest next door.
00:17:24.880 Because when people work with nature, they enhance habitats for nature.
00:17:32.260 As I mentioned, our farm has six times more pollinators than the forest next door.
00:17:39.060 That means we have created more habitat for wild species.
00:17:42.240 It's an agriculture which is using lethal poisons, herbicides, pesticides that is destroying the habitat, not just on farmland, but in wilderness zones.
00:17:53.740 After all, the nitrate runoff from nitrogen fertilizers is going into the oceans and killing dead zones. 0.86
00:18:02.020 Albert Howard was sent by the British to improve Indian agriculture
00:18:08.320 which meant introduce what chemicals there were at that time
00:18:11.400 not that many in 1905, not as many as after the war
00:18:15.180 but to reshape agriculture in India like the agriculture of England
00:18:20.920 and he arrived and found the soils were fertile
00:18:23.340 insects were flourishing but there was no pest damage
00:18:28.100 and as he writes in the book he wrote called The Agricultural Testament
00:18:32.000 I decided to make the pest and the peasant my teacher.
00:18:35.960 Now, this book has been called the testament for modern organic farming.
00:18:42.240 There's a very strong paragraph in that book,
00:18:45.180 and I would recommend everyone who has exaggerated the violence
00:18:49.120 and damages of industrial agriculture,
00:18:51.360 the violence and damages of factory farming to all of history and all cultures.
00:18:56.680 Howard says, agriculture in the Orient, you know,
00:19:00.440 So China, India were called the Orient in those colonial times and the West was the
00:19:05.040 Occident.
00:19:06.220 And he says agriculture in the Orient has passed the ultimate test of permanence.
00:19:13.380 The agriculture of the small farms of India is as permanent as the forest, the prairie
00:19:19.920 and the ocean. 0.89
00:19:21.060 And that can only happen when you make your farm or your little pond with fish like an
00:19:29.720 ocean or like a forest. So what are the tools for restoration that produce more food? First is you
00:19:37.340 cannot destroy the relationship between animals and crops. That's another thing Howard observed,
00:19:44.120 that any agriculture system that has to last and not destroy ecological processes must have
00:19:50.280 perennials, which means it must be agroforestry based. And Indian agriculture was always very
00:19:55.920 intensely forestry based. My own father was a forester and he used to tell me how there are
00:20:00.260 more trees on the farms of India than in the reserved forests of India. Second, livestock and
00:20:07.580 animals cannot be separate. It's when you separate crops and trees and livestock and put trees in a
00:20:14.860 forest, livestock in factory farms, and the annual crops as a monoculture that the damages begin.
00:20:21.600 After all, it is a visionary called Matsunobu Fukuoka, whose book, The One Straw Revolution, promoted natural farming.
00:20:30.380 The word was natural farming everywhere.
00:20:32.760 He worked with rice, but he made it as permanent as a forest.
00:20:37.540 So I do feel people need to look much more closely at the diversity of systems.
00:20:41.700 The fact that this diversity of systems has brought wilderness into agriculture, whether it is the wilderness of the soil with diverse organisms.
00:20:51.600 or it is the wilderness of the pollinators
00:20:54.880 or it is the wilderness of every seed.
00:20:57.620 Every time I work with seeds,
00:21:00.940 whether it is to save them or to have them
00:21:02.720 as a basis of an ecological agriculture,
00:21:05.940 I see the wildness of that seed thriving
00:21:09.180 because wildness is the ability to self-organize
00:21:13.560 and evolve on your own terms.
00:21:16.620 And when different species can do that
00:21:18.700 and we create that space for them,
00:21:21.600 that is rewilding. Here in the western U.S., drought is on everyone's mind, especially as
00:21:29.420 these catastrophic wildfires rage on. Where I live, the sky is dark with smoke. And so we think about
00:21:36.640 chemical fertilizers and how they require huge amounts of water to dissolve and mobilize
00:21:42.400 nutrients. And in the western U.S., over 90% of water is used by industrial agriculture.
00:21:50.720 So can you talk about how drought and desertification are tied to industrial agriculture and how traditional farmers cope with water shortages?
00:22:05.940 First of all, traditional farming actually creates water conservation.
00:22:11.020 Our research shows that the more the organic content of the soil, which is the result of organic farming,
00:22:16.920 Howard called it the law of return, I call it the law of return,
00:22:19.600 returning to the earth what you receive.
00:22:21.300 We actually increase the water-holding capacity of soil
00:22:24.380 to the extent that with 1% increase,
00:22:27.220 you can go up to nearly 80,000 litres per hectare of water storage in the soil.
00:22:33.080 I have seen this happen empirically.
00:22:36.100 Every time we've had a drought,
00:22:38.560 our organic farmers haven't had a crop failure.
00:22:41.440 The chemical farmers have had a total wipeout of their crop. 0.97
00:22:44.200 So not only does industrial agriculture use more water, and my analysis in my book called The Violence of the Green Revolution worked out from government figures that it's 10 times more water to produce the same amount of food.
00:22:58.740 It's such a waste.
00:22:59.660 And the assumption was there's limitless water.
00:23:01.760 But more than that, it destroys the capacity of the soil to hold water because that capacity
00:23:07.660 comes from having humus in your soil, which comes from putting organic matter in the soil,
00:23:12.080 which creates soil aggregates, and they then turn the soil into a sponge that can hold water.
00:23:17.660 But this also is a solution to flooding because when there is more water holding capacity,
00:23:23.480 then you have less flooding.
00:23:24.880 More importantly, not only are chemical fertilizers guzzling, but the breeding of crops has made crops more thirsty.
00:23:35.300 So I'll give you an example of the cotton.
00:23:38.160 The cottons that India evolved, and India is a land of cotton, and we got our freedom through spinning cotton in Gandhi's footsteps.
00:23:46.700 Native varieties of cotton are drought resistant.
00:23:49.920 They grow in rain-fed conditions in very dry areas.
00:23:52.880 The GMO cotton is put into a hybrid which needs irrigation.
00:23:56.840 So you have the damage caused by use of fertilizers.
00:24:00.840 You have damage caused by thirsty cultivation, water-intensive crops planting in very dry areas.
00:24:09.180 We've just done a manifesto, and I would suggest you and your colleagues read it.
00:24:13.640 It's called Terra Viva.
00:24:14.800 Its English version is available.
00:24:16.140 and in that we have tracked how land use linked to the spread of new varieties adapted to chemical
00:24:25.500 farming have created more land degradation, have created more desertification, have also
00:24:31.160 contributed more to climate change through producing more greenhouse gases. And in fact,
00:24:36.300 the story of Boko Haram and the story of ISIS needs to be told through the soil. 2009 is when
00:24:43.860 Boko Haram starts. 2009 is when Syria problems start. Both were a result of extended drought
00:24:51.680 and extreme weather events, extreme climate. Lake Chad has shrunk to 5% and less what it
00:25:00.140 used to be. That is what is leading to the conflicts around Lake Chad in the area where
00:25:05.320 Boko Haram has risen. It so happens the pastoralists are Muslim, the settled agriculturists are 0.98
00:25:10.440 Christians. When I did my study on Punjab, it was so clearly an issue of sustainability.
00:25:16.100 It was so clearly an issue of farmers saying our land is destroyed, our rivers are captive,
00:25:21.160 we aren't earning enough. It was fun to say it was about religion. Religion has become a very 0.92
00:25:28.540 easy excuse to cover up the true story of a war mentality in agriculture devastating the planet 0.94
00:25:38.020 and soils. We really need to start telling history from the point of view of the earth.
00:25:44.240 You've written and spoken so much about water theft and water colonization. And I'm wondering
00:25:50.840 if you can go into how India is being affected by this and where you see the water crisis heading.
00:25:58.520 You know, where I wrote Water Wars, I wrote it partly because there were so many conflicts
00:26:02.860 around water, including India, people were dying. And why were they dying? People have lived as
00:26:09.660 riparian communities along rivers for millennia, and they haven't killed each other this way.
00:26:14.940 But when you create an agriculture where every farmer wants 10 times more water than they've
00:26:20.380 used in the past, and instead of putting water, clean water back into the river, they're draining
00:26:25.960 it off, creating waterlogged deserts, creating salinated deserts, rivers start to run dry.
00:26:34.340 That is the root of conflicts.
00:26:36.460 But then there's privatization.
00:26:38.720 When I was writing the book, someone leaked to me a Monsanto document which said, water's
00:26:45.140 getting polluted, water's disappearing, sustainability in the water sector will be privatizing it
00:26:52.320 because these profits will be sustainable profits since everyone needs water.
00:26:56.740 And they were talking about not just linking chemicals to seed
00:27:00.080 as they've done with Roundup Ready crops,
00:27:02.140 but linking the chemicals in the seed and the water.
00:27:04.660 So if you didn't buy their water, you wouldn't have a crop
00:27:07.220 because the water would carry the chemicals.
00:27:10.120 Thank goodness this reached us early enough and we had a mobilization
00:27:13.320 and they couldn't do that then.
00:27:15.440 But water, as you already mentioned,
00:27:17.960 the biggest waste of it is in industrial agriculture.
00:27:22.320 And water has to get enslaved when it has to be bought and sold.
00:27:27.660 You can't sell a free-flowing river, but you can pipe that river, channelize that river, dam that river, and then you can pretend that that water is your property.
00:27:40.640 The good thing is, just as in the case of seed, we've managed in 90 percent countries to roll back laws that would make seed saving illegal.
00:27:48.940 And I do want to mention, in the U.S., in every state, on the basis of a 2004 federal law, state after state is trying to make local seed saving illegal through seed libraries.
00:28:01.560 There is also a California law which says corporations are persons, only corporate financing can breed good seed.
00:28:10.780 No level below the state, which means no county can make any law related to seed, including GMOs.
00:28:17.140 and a neighbor is 30 feet away.
00:28:22.320 Which means you can't go to your neighbor one mile away and exchange seed.
00:28:27.640 So this attempt has been made everywhere.
00:28:30.860 90% of the time, we were successful through the Seed Freedom Movement
00:28:34.800 to roll these initiatives back in the last three years.
00:28:37.920 In the same way, water privatization, 90% of the project supported by IMF and the World Bank
00:28:43.520 so that these five companies could make profits,
00:28:46.520 They have been rolled back because colonizing nature is an attempt to colonize the wild.
00:28:53.340 And one thing about the wild is it'll burst free. 0.99
00:29:16.520 women in nature share a history of oppression by patriarchal societies you wrote one of the
00:29:41.600 early works on ecofeminism in 1988, a book called Staying Alive, Women, Ecology, and Development.
00:29:48.500 And if I understand correctly, you argue that oppression has escalated as industrial development
00:29:57.740 has been imposed on the quote developing world. Men with machines are still wrecking the natural
00:30:04.780 world. Despite all the talk about a paradigm shift, we're still wrecking the place. So how
00:30:11.100 can feminism help societies reconnect to earth and disarm the violence against her?
00:30:19.500 And, you know, as I've written in that book that was started in 85 at the big women's
00:30:24.180 summit in Nairobi, which is when my publisher said, you know, this connection between ecology
00:30:28.860 and feminism hasn't been made with the right book.
00:30:31.480 And I wrote Staying Alive.
00:30:32.460 Why do I say the violence against women and the violence against nature have the same
00:30:37.880 roots?
00:30:38.240 Because it is the so-called scientific revolution and so-called rise of an economic paradigm centered on capital that declared nature as dead and inactive and valueless, declared women as passive, as unproductive, non-creative, empty heads. 0.62
00:30:57.040 That death of nature and the exclusion of women from the recognition of their creativity and productivity is at the root of the violence.
00:31:06.200 it's also at the root of the violence because by refusing to look at the creativity of nature 0.65
00:31:12.020 by refusing to look at the intelligence of women violent systems were made to look like absolute 0.89
00:31:17.720 creators creators of food while you blast the planet up 75 of the destruction of the planet 1.00
00:31:24.900 has come from industrial agriculture which is only giving 30 of the food and the gmos are only 0.99
00:31:30.020 providing 10 to unwilling consumers because if there was labeling no one would be eating it 0.78
00:31:35.060 Most of it goes for biofuel and animal feed. That violence has aggravated in India. Just in the last 20, 30 years, more than 30 million girls haven't been allowed to be born. The brutal violence against women has increased. And my reading of this is that when more and more violence enters the economic paradigm, when it enters your everyday thinking, then violence becomes the basis of your relationship.
00:32:00.720 objectification becomes the basis of your relationship. You have no source for reverence
00:32:06.760 for nature, for respect for women. And the way ecology and feminism coming together 1.00
00:32:13.540 can stop this violence is by recognizing that the highest creativity lies in nature. The highest 0.54
00:32:21.400 creativity is in women. I have done campaigns on the silly golden rice, which will be hundreds of 1.00
00:32:27.180 percent less efficient if it was to come to be and in any case it has now been proven the papers
00:32:32.300 published to justify it were totally manufactured and the paper had to be retracted a so-called 1.00
00:32:38.900 science that has to be based on manipulation really has no place leave it to women's creativity 1.00
00:32:44.060 we can solve every malnutrition problem on this planet because women have always worked with 1.00
00:32:48.600 biodiversity and it's the marginalization of that knowledge of biodiversity that is at the root of 1.00
00:32:53.960 malnutrition that is at the root of hunger. More importantly, the ability to be compassionate,
00:33:01.920 the ability to be loving, which survived in women. I'm not saying it is built into the genes of 0.97
00:33:07.360 women, but it survived in women because women were left to look after the economy, which was 1.00
00:33:12.560 not considered important. It was not the economy of war. It was not the economy of profits and the 1.00
00:33:17.540 market. It was the economy of care. That economy of care needs to be everyone's economy.
00:33:23.960 And I see rewilding and creating economies of care as one process at its roots.
00:33:34.540 So I read that you and a band of other women acted to defend the forest in northern India
00:33:39.680 by literally surrounding the trees, holding hands.
00:33:43.780 So were there any historical precedents that inspired that action?
00:33:47.300 Or how did that come about? And was it successful?
00:33:51.160 The movement called CHIPCO, which means to hug, which was my inspiration.
00:33:56.140 I call it my university of ecological knowledge and ecological activism because my PhD otherwise is in the foundations of quantum theory, in non-locality in quantum theory, very far away.
00:34:07.500 I really learned so much from the women defending the forests through this act of deep love, of embrace.
00:34:13.900 The women who took this initial action spontaneously didn't really know that there had been a precedent.
00:34:20.160 those of us who then started to do more research found out two things.
00:34:26.460 First, that at the time when Gandhi led the salt march,
00:34:31.240 you might remember the colonizers wanted to monopolize salt for profits, 0.65
00:34:36.260 to buy more ganas, to shoot more Indians.
00:34:38.480 And Gandhi walked to the beach, picked up the salt from the sea, 0.99
00:34:41.200 and said, nature gives it for free.
00:34:43.040 We need it for our survival.
00:34:44.800 We will continue to make salt.
00:34:46.360 We will not obey your laws.
00:34:47.420 And that was a very famous Satyagraha, the power of civil disobedience, to obey higher law and disobey brute law.
00:34:55.980 Exactly at that time, in the forests of India, in every part of India, and I've written about this in my book, Ecology and the Politics of Survival, in the chapter on forests, in the western Ghats, in the forests of central India, and in my region up in the Himalaya, people were turning to the forest and telling the British, leave, these forests are our mothers.
00:35:16.640 You cannot own them as your property. But even more historical than that is a movement led by a woman called Amrita Devi, who was defending a sacred tree in the desert of Rajasthan called the Kejri.
00:35:34.860 Now, Rajasthan is a desert, but it's the most populated desert because centuries ago, they realized what is the actions we need to take to reverse desertification.
00:35:46.160 Part of it was building amazing tanks and the culture of tanks in Rajasthan is so rich, planting these very, very drought tolerant trees like Kajri, declaring every animal as sacred.
00:35:57.280 So you're not allowed to kill animals, not the blackback, not the peacock.
00:36:00.820 And Amrita Devi was following this religion, which is called Bishnoi, which means 29 rules.
00:36:06.560 And all 29 rules are of nature conservation, protection of species.
00:36:10.800 I think it's the only religion in the world dedicated entirely to protection of nature.
00:36:16.480 And when the king's men came to cut the tree, to burn, to paint the palace walls with land,
00:36:24.460 she hugged the tree and said, you can't cut it, you'll have to take my head.
00:36:27.740 So they took her head.
00:36:29.080 Then her two daughters came. They chopped their heads up. 270 or more villagers sacrificed their lives. When the news reached the king, he was, of course, outraged and totally banned the cutting of the sacred tree. So there is precedence. And I'm sure in periods of history, even earlier, where we have no record, people have sacrificed their lives for the protection of the earth and her diverse species. 1.00
00:36:53.640 wow i have chills thank you for sharing that story yeah i feel people in the u.s and many
00:37:03.320 other places are so severed from their ancestral traditions that they hunger for any and every
00:37:11.120 glimpse into those rare places around the world that have not been bled out by globalization
00:37:16.000 civilization where people hold dearly to traditional values and knowledge and and I know
00:37:23.080 you were born in the foothills of the Himalayas and your town Daradoon has probably changed quite
00:37:28.800 a bit since your childhood but I'd like to ask if you would share some of your memories or even the
00:37:35.700 memories passed on to you by your parents or grandparents about that reality that village
00:37:40.460 life. What have you taken away from that upbringing that can help guide social experiments
00:37:47.840 going on today from ecovillages to collectives to transition towns and beyond? Well, interestingly,
00:37:55.280 you know, my other book on ecofeminism, I co-authored with my dear friend Maria Mies
00:38:00.460 in Germany. It's just called ecofeminism. And we have a chapter in there. Maria wrote the chapter.
00:38:06.400 it's called they long for what they have destroyed the point you made about trying to look for places
00:38:12.760 where the destruction hasn't happened so I was very privileged you know to be born in the Himalaya
00:38:17.460 my mother was displaced in the partition chose to become a farmer even though she was very highly
00:38:22.400 educated and had a government job and she said I've broken all glass ceilings for women and now
00:38:27.820 I'm going to go back to the earth this is what I'll do so I grew up on a farm I grew up traveling
00:38:31.980 with my dad in the forest. And at that time, you know, we'd step out of the town and we'd see
00:38:37.620 tigers, we'd see elephants. Wildlife was right there. The town itself was small because the
00:38:46.320 destructiveness of industrial agriculture, which is called the Green Revolution in the Third World
00:38:52.060 when it's introduced to our parts of the world, and it's not green and it's not revolutionary,
00:38:55.840 it's just an extension of the war that should have ended in 1945. That has led to a lot of
00:39:01.300 displacement of farmers and the rush to cities. Most of the city growth is through slums where 0.98
00:39:06.260 people don't find a place, a dignified, meaningful place. Our town was so beautiful that the British
00:39:14.100 used to write about how beautiful this valley is, how beautiful the town is. This rush to
00:39:20.820 build bigger and bigger cities is contaminating every town where there are benefits, where there
00:39:26.180 our facilities. I'm very fortunate that I managed to return to my valley when I was asked by the
00:39:32.540 Ministry of Environment to look at mining, which was destroying the valley. And I came and did the
00:39:37.260 study for the ministry. And the study went all the way to the Supreme Court as a basis of a case.
00:39:42.760 And it was the first ever environmental decision in India, 1983, where the Supreme Court ruled
00:39:50.220 and said when commerce destroys life commerce has to stop because life has to carry on
00:39:57.180 and the mining was stopped and the polluting industry around that mining was stopped
00:40:01.180 so we got rid of pollution and managed to declare our valley a green valley and then of course i
00:40:05.980 built the navdanya farm and the seed bank and the teaching center the earth university
00:40:11.140 and like i was saying you know it is as wild a place as you can have but it also gives you food
00:40:18.580 a lot of diversity of delicious food
00:40:21.120 so at one level
00:40:23.240 in my old age
00:40:24.980 and I can't say in my old age
00:40:26.460 because I am a senior citizen
00:40:27.940 even though I don't behave like one
00:40:29.660 I behave like a young teenager
00:40:31.440 ready to run for the next challenge
00:40:34.740 in my old age
00:40:35.720 in a way that little part of the valley
00:40:38.460 is like the valley used to be
00:40:48.580 I believe most of us want to transition to a healthy world.
00:41:06.520 And probably most people don't want the earth to die.
00:41:10.540 Maybe not even Monsanto.
00:41:11.840 They're just drowning in denial and profits.
00:41:15.220 but more and more people are recognizing that the economy must contract industry must size down
00:41:24.160 and you know population must contract and our living arrangements must reflect the dire needs
00:41:32.340 of the planet so those who see it coming or recognize it's here and happening faster than
00:41:39.440 we or other species can adapt are calling this a collapse others call it a transition
00:41:46.760 so if you were to lay out a roadmap for navigating this era of change what can we do
00:41:55.060 what are the real world tangible steps the global community must take and is capable of taking for
00:42:03.220 a graceful return to a mosaic of regional earth-minded societies?
00:42:10.260 First issue in the transition is to know that ecosystems are collapsing, species have been 0.97
00:42:16.660 driven to extinction, economies are collapsing everywhere, entire societies, like in Syria, 1.00
00:42:21.320 people are living in refugee camps somewhere else. You know, that's a collapse. It's a social 1.00
00:42:25.980 collapse. I think in the towns of Baltimore and in the towns of Missouri, we see a social collapse.
00:42:32.380 But the key is not to respond to either fear or panic or hate, because that is what is triggered for those who would like to maintain power in this period.
00:42:48.040 When I hear the speeches of your presidential candidates, you know, based on fear and hate, they are actually making sure there can't be a transition.
00:42:58.240 So the transition needs, instead of fear, it needs hope.
00:43:02.560 Instead of hate, it needs love.
00:43:04.740 The second is that this transition cannot happen while we think piecemeal.
00:43:11.060 We all have limits.
00:43:13.620 Either I can start a garden or I can be a good teacher or I can be a wilderness protector.
00:43:20.120 But even while we play our little role in our care for the earth, we have to be deeply aware of the web of life.
00:43:28.240 And it's only when we see those interconnections at every step, we will stop doing what society has done for too long, competing with each other. Climate movement competing with the agricultural regeneration movement, the labor movement having to compete with the environmental movement. Too long have we been pitted against each other by those who thrive on divide and rule.
00:43:49.420 The third very, very important aspect of the transition is, you know, 250 years of paradigms in economy and science and technology have literally groomed generations to think that, oh, my God, what's going to happen if I don't have a job?
00:44:05.460 Oh, my God, what's going to happen when we run out of oil? Oh, my God, what's going to happen if I've got to return to the village?
00:44:11.240 What's going to happen when there's no electricity?
00:44:12.740 The only way we make this transition is by looking at small farmers and their societies, looking at indigenous people and their societies, first developing respect for them, not looking down on them as primitive, but realizing that they created a very, very large footprint with a very high culture.
00:44:33.820 we can only make this transition as an earth family we can only make this transition through
00:44:40.000 the joy of living not being married to the junk that industrial society has created you know when
00:44:48.820 i got into a flight after my phd immediately i defended my thesis in the morning and i was on
00:44:54.040 a flight back home and everyone would say but you know why did you come back you could have been a
00:44:58.240 tenure track put professor i said i know i could have done all that but i know by the end of 10
00:45:03.540 years, I'd have become so attached to the vacuum cleaner and a car and a big mansion that I'd have
00:45:09.080 been dysfunctional to do the real work in life. And I don't want to become dysfunctional. So I'm
00:45:14.400 so glad I threw myself into what others would think of as deprivation, but I saw as liberation.
00:45:21.900 Every time we can get rid of some of that industrial infrastructure junk, whether it's in
00:45:27.460 consumption or it's in terms of dependence every time we can through solidarity whether it is in
00:45:34.460 agriculture where through solidarity with biodiversity we produce our food and say oh
00:45:38.840 we can produce better food without chemicals so bye bye monsanto bye bye gmos bye bye pesticides
00:45:44.900 and we can do that in every sector so if we were able to come together as activists
00:45:50.820 How can we keep fighting for a diversity of issues, but as a united movement that can stand strong in the face of extraordinary odds?
00:46:01.640 What can our unifying cause be, and how can that be agreed upon?
00:46:06.840 So you might remember, or you might not remember, you're so young, that WTO was stopped in Seattle.
00:46:15.000 And of course, the media started to say, oh, these anti-globalizers know what they are against, they don't know what they're for.
00:46:20.820 And we said, no, no, no, we know we are against patenting of life because we love life and we respect the integrity and self-organization of life.
00:46:29.420 We're against free trade and agriculture because we love our farmers, our soil, our food and our health.
00:46:35.840 And we know globalization of agriculture will destroy all of that.
00:46:40.560 That's why I wrote The Earth's Democracy.
00:46:42.800 So, of course, we have to first know what we are for.
00:46:45.460 And we have to be for life in all its diversity.
00:46:48.800 Not just human life, but all life on earth.
00:46:52.240 The second part of it is to widen our understanding of freedom and democracy.
00:46:56.900 We've too long been made to believe that democracy is going once in four years or five years
00:47:02.680 and putting a ballot and getting someone into power who then is controlled by the corporations
00:47:06.960 and has no relationship with the citizens and will impose GMOs, even when people don't want it.
00:47:12.420 Will impose laws that say you can't have labeling, even though people want labeling, which is the dark act.
00:47:17.880 which imposes monopolies on seed even though farmers everywhere struggle
00:47:22.520 to defend their right to save seeds and their duty to save seeds.
00:47:26.220 What we're really against is a continuity of what was started
00:47:30.480 in terms of the knowledge paradigm with Newton and Descartes and Bacon,
00:47:35.700 the declaration of the earth as dead and merely material for exploitation.
00:47:40.200 The earth is alive and that sets everything else for us.
00:47:43.980 because the earth is alive we must do agriculture in a way that the life of the earth flourishes
00:47:49.640 rather than diminishes because we are part of the earth we have to live in ways that our health
00:47:56.800 and our communities and our societies flourish rather than become diseased become violent
00:48:05.160 lose hope. In terms of agriculture, the challenge is first we have to save every seed we possibly
00:48:13.900 can, just as we save children, just as we save anything else we love. Because everything in
00:48:20.180 agriculture and in society is now hanging on the seed. Industry wants to genetically modify it,
00:48:26.140 own it, patent it, ban its free use. We have to defend the freedom of the seed, the freedom of
00:48:31.060 the farmers, the freedom of those who can eat food from good seed. So seed freedom and food
00:48:35.800 freedom is one. Just like an apartheid was created between humans and nature, and therefore between
00:48:42.520 areas where humans live, which were giant cities and a shrinking wilderness, an apartheid was also
00:48:50.380 created in terms of the idea of agriculture itself. And agriculture, as I mentioned earlier,
00:49:01.400 has become so destructive. We don't need to have a separation of the countryside and the city
00:49:08.500 because the city gets its food from the countryside. I've just launched a big movement in India
00:49:14.440 called Food Smart City, partly because everyone wants to build smart cities.
00:49:18.220 and we said no you've got to be food smart and then you don't destroy the villages you protect
00:49:23.000 the villages you don't destroy your small farmers you create relationships of mutuality with them
00:49:28.540 so cities surrounded by food sheds which are watersheds which are wilderness sheds becomes
00:49:34.800 the basis of local food economies and the city itself becomes a food economy with food in every
00:49:41.420 balcony every terrace every little garden and that's why i spread gardens of hope everywhere
00:49:46.620 I call them Gardens of Hope because we started it with widows of farmers who had committed suicide.
00:49:52.720 In fact, yesterday I was with widows in Punjab.
00:49:55.480 And initially they said, but we don't even know how to grow vegetables.
00:49:58.220 We've just grown wheat and rice.
00:49:59.880 And I said, everyone knows how to grow vegetables because vegetables grow themselves.
00:50:03.220 You put the seed into the soil and it'll grow.
00:50:05.480 And now 5,000 villagers want to have these Gardens of Hope.
00:50:10.460 We've got to create these gardens everywhere.
00:50:13.300 because it's only when we reclaim our capacity to feel we are sowing the future
00:50:21.240 that will stop feeling helpless in the face of the exaggerated power of fictions.
00:50:28.020 After all, a corporation is a fiction.
00:50:31.380 It's a legally constructed entity.
00:50:33.600 Capital is an economic construct.
00:50:36.160 And through the garden, we come back to the earth as a foundational reality.
00:50:41.640 And from there, a whole new paradigm starts to grow.
00:50:44.740 Going back to this capital power struggle, we speak about freedom of seed, you know, freedom of life.
00:50:50.980 And I'm wondering if you can break down the doublespeak of free trade and give us your analysis of how the Trans-Pacific Partnership would affect India.
00:51:02.220 And what would your strategy against it be, if you're open to divulging as much?
00:51:08.600 We could recognize so-called free trade to be the unfree trade
00:51:12.360 because the first free trade treaty was actually written by the first corporation
00:51:16.300 with a collapsing Mughal empire in India, 1711, I think it was.
00:51:21.500 It was called the Free Trade Agreement between the right-olerable East India Company
00:51:25.080 and Farooqshir, the then emperor.
00:51:28.820 I think they bribed a clerk in the emperor's office for probably 500 rupees,
00:51:35.560 which would be $10.
00:51:37.620 today. So colonization began as free trade. The new return of colonization through GATT and the
00:51:47.160 WTO was the new free trade of our times. Because industry had planned to control all our food,
00:51:55.920 all our agriculture, all our seeds, but we built movements. You know, I started to build a movement
00:52:00.040 for seed saving in 87 because I got a hang of where they were wanting to go. And it's only
00:52:06.800 eight years later that WTO treaties were imposed. So we had an eight-year lead time to build
00:52:12.940 alternatives and to stop their agenda and to build alternatives on the true freedom of nature
00:52:18.480 and the earth and people, living communities, against the fictitious freedom of giant
00:52:24.740 corporations seeking profits at any cost. It's because they could not get all the control they
00:52:31.300 sought. They're now coming up with TPP and TTIP. And at the heart of these agreements are three
00:52:37.960 elements. The first is more push for GMOs because they failed, as I said, in most countries. A bigger
00:52:44.560 push for intellectual property rights defined in ways that there would be no knowledge that would
00:52:49.500 be in the public domain. And the third is corporations have anyway been functioning as
00:52:55.560 if they were people with rights that belong to people. The Citizen United decision is an example.
00:53:02.540 The challenge to Vermont's labeling law by corporations saying our freedom of speech is
00:53:07.040 taken away if we are forced to label. They want to now bring it into formal international rights
00:53:13.200 through what are called investor state dispute settlements. If a government,
00:53:18.280 through democratic responsibility, does what its people want it to do, the corporations can sue
00:53:23.540 and take the government to these tribunals because there's no court that would work for this.
00:53:29.580 And that's what they would like, a corporate rule where they are the judges, they are the courts,
00:53:35.160 they write the constitution, they pretend to be people and they rob real people of their humanity
00:53:41.240 and their freedom and they rob nature of its freedom also. So I would say TPP and TTIP were
00:53:48.720 to come into force. India, even though it's not a direct member of either of these treaties,
00:53:53.000 would be hugely affected because we'd be a little island pushed through the globalized economy
00:53:59.600 into this direction of corporate rule. Corporate rule, in my view, is the death of democracy,
00:54:06.700 a further collapse of our ecosystems, and definitely the robbing of, I would say,
00:54:12.940 about 98% of humanity of its right to life. 1% of the rich now own 99% of the wealth of this planet.
00:54:19.640 And I pay tribute to the Occupy movement, which got this figure through intuition, which has been verified since then by economist after economist.
00:54:29.020 Now, an economy in which wealth is so concentrated, an economy is so divided, that the only workers there are are slaves.
00:54:38.540 I mean, if you read the literature today, whether it's the farms of Europe or the United States, or it's the big fishing vessels, they are working on the basis of slavery.
00:54:48.900 So slavery is no more a metaphor. Slavery is the economic base of the way the economy is running when so much wealth is being extracted. And that's why in Terra Viva, I've talked about the linear extractive economy that's concentrating everything in the hands of 1% versus a circular economy where we reclaim our capacity to live as one with the earth.
00:55:13.060 And that can only happen through local economies and decentralization. And this contest between paradigms, this contest between different ways of thinking will grow more intense in the next few years. And what we have on our side is our alliance with the earth and our solidarity with each other.
00:55:29.760 Thank you, Dr. Vandana Shiva. Thank you so much for joining us and for your great work in India and everywhere. The organic movement is a peace movement in the most radical sense.
00:55:42.900 Yes.
00:55:43.800 Please let us know how we can help organize here in the U.S.
00:55:48.820 Well, I'll give you one last little thing where you can join. I'll be coming to the Eluma Expo and we are launching the Seed Satyagraph for the U.S.
00:55:59.760 As you know, I mentioned the salt Satyagraha, where Gandhi told the British, you can't monopolize the salt, we'll make our own salt.
00:56:06.780 We say the same to the Monsentos of the world.
00:56:09.760 It's our duty to protect biodiversity, and you cannot come in the way of this higher duty we have to the earth.
00:56:16.280 And look out, look out on the 8th.
00:56:19.900 It'll be up on the websites.
00:56:21.800 It goes all the way from Thoreau calling for civil disobedience, and Thoreau, of course, is the ecological pioneer,
00:56:27.320 but also the person who fought against slavery by saying,
00:56:30.860 I will not obey your poll tax.
00:56:32.980 And King and Gandhi before King, if we have freedom today,
00:56:37.760 it's because there were courageous people who said there are higher laws we must obey,
00:56:42.880 the laws of the earth and the laws of humanity.
00:56:45.440 We are at that kind of threshold where each one of us has to invoke the King
00:56:50.640 and the Gandhi and the Thoreau in us because they are in each of us.
00:56:54.900 Thank you.
00:56:55.320 Thank you for joining us today with Vandana Shiva.
00:56:59.340 The music was by Bonnie Prince Billy, Tracy Chapman, and Haimant Shaohan.
00:57:04.580 Kate Wolfe sings our theme song.
00:57:06.680 Production is by March Young and editing by Nicole West.
00:57:10.320 I'm Ayanna Young.