00:08:53.040You want someone who's authoritative, who can say without questions that things are going to be okay.
00:09:00.240And so that's a lot of what's happening around the world, that the whole world is experiencing globalization, technology, the environment, and concerned about demographics.
00:09:10.320The whole world is not experiencing economic crisis.
00:09:12.780In fact, the United States, in some measure, is not experiencing economic crisis.
00:09:17.160It's experiencing inequality crisis, but not economic crisis.
00:09:19.940The economy, by most measures, was doing quite well, and was doing quite well during the 2016 election.
00:09:26.940Also, if you look at the data, the people who voted for Trump, the white upper middle class,
00:09:32.940Trump's base was very white, but the white upper middle class voted for him,
00:09:36.940so it wasn't just high school dropouts with poor people.
00:11:36.520So the point is that these are stories, and we live in stories, and it's not just reflecting what we're experiencing, it helps shape what we're experiencing, who we are.
00:11:47.580Thinking about Trump and the specificities of our country and culture, I'm especially attuned to the power of language when it comes to both the act of othering and the rise of fascism.
00:12:00.080fascism all dictators understand the weight of words in shaping our understanding and perception
00:12:06.280of reality or perhaps non-reality and i think of hannah arendt the political philosopher who
00:12:14.040also fled nazi germany who wrote the origins of totalitarianism and she wrote quote the ideal
00:12:20.400subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced nazi or the dedicated communist but people for
00:12:27.620whom the distinction between fact and fiction true and false no longer exist end quote so i'm
00:12:34.760hoping we could contextualize this quote in terms of collective anxiety and breaking versus bridging
00:12:41.520you know how can bridging and the language of belonging serve as an antidote to what aren't
00:12:48.040references i'm a student hers as well and i think she's right in terms she actually says also one of
00:12:53.980the first things that died there in governments to truth.
00:12:57.480And I think it's been well-documented1.00
00:12:59.540that Trump lies secusely, he's a habitual liar.0.97
00:13:03.920It's also interesting that his base essentially doesn't care.0.97
00:13:07.000I mean, sometimes they literally interview people
00:15:52.080We literally say to certain groups, either you don't have access to money or it's going to cost you a lot more money to have access to money.
00:16:01.260When we, you know, up until recently, I think it's a lot like Tiger Woods.
00:16:05.020when he started playing golf, there were a number of golf courses he couldn't go to because0.97
00:16:09.160Blacks weren't allowed. Some of them women aren't allowed. So these are institutional,1.00
00:16:13.140and we have to sort of address those, but we also have to be willing to bridge,
00:16:16.880even with people who are on the other side, who are involved with these things. Because again,
00:16:22.780the two dominant stories in the world today, and that is, we need a small we, and everybody else
00:16:30.320is other, and basically we're better than other people, and we need to protect ourselves from
00:16:35.000those other people. And so we have a small we, and that's how Trump represents America as a small
00:16:41.100we. And then there's a large we, which recognize that we're connected not only to each other,
00:16:46.780but people outside the country, we're connected to the earth. We have a relationship that's not
00:16:51.380hierarchical, and these stories about a large we. And so those are the two dominant competing
00:16:57.560narratives right now, where they have a small we, ethnic nationalism authoritarian, where they have
00:20:20.540but the word is operative word shouldn't be because it is important and we know both at
00:20:26.040the conscious and unconscious level most americans even quote-unquote white americans who grew up in
00:20:32.340all white areas obsessed with race think about it at an unconscious level all the time when the
00:20:37.340first things the unconscious does when meets a person is categorized by race faster than the
00:20:41.740conscious can even come online and not just categorize it actually affects our behavior
00:20:47.940And so part of the problem, you think about Black Lives Matter, when people say all lives matter.
00:20:54.000Yes, of course all lives matter, but all lives are not being shot down by the police.
00:20:58.160As far as I know, in the last several years, there hasn't been one white person who complained they were shot because they were white.
00:21:06.140We have this notion of hate crime, which says if everybody was the same in every situation, we wouldn't have hate crimes.
00:21:13.960but when you hurt someone because of their sexual orientation it's a double hurt it's the hurt the
00:21:21.360physical hurt and it's also the emotional psychological hurt and we can recognize that
00:21:25.600and so the charge that we're all the same while sounding good actually erases some people
00:21:32.980and erases the needs and the context and the situation of those people because when we're
00:21:38.640So we're all the same. The assumption is we're all the same as me, the dominant group, which means I don't have to pay attention to your particularities or your needs, which is sort of a soft form of bigotry, if you will.
00:21:54.580There has been a resurgence of interest around our understanding of citizenship, especially in the last three or four years.
00:22:04.040And while I'd argue that citizenship has always been contested in this country and certainly manufactured and manipulated at the whims of the political elite in service to the creation of the nation state, I think that many are for the first time questioning what citizenship should mean as the world experiences climate change, globalization, and even the furthering of technology.
00:22:32.340and i'm specifically thinking back to something you shared at the othering and belonging conference
00:22:38.360in oakland this past month and you said quote we're taking stuff from all over the world
00:22:43.920but telling people you have to stay put we're disrupting systems and climates all over the
00:22:50.180world and then saying you have to stay put we're taking oil from the middle east we're telling the
00:22:56.160people in the middle east your oil can come but you can't we're taking minerals from africa and0.98
00:23:01.820saying, we need your minerals to build cell phones, but we don't need your people. We have1.00
00:23:07.120this global consumption. And at the same time, we're trying to shut the door on people. When
00:23:12.300the people try to follow their stuff, then they become the problem, end quote. So I'd really love
00:23:20.100to begin by asking you how you are rethinking citizenship. That's a great question. I mean,
00:23:27.720You know, the concept of citizenship in really many terms, people have been citizens of countries for a long time, but it's taken on particular meaning only the last couple hundred years where, because, you know, in ancient England or France, people were subjects and they didn't have much in the way of rights.
00:23:46.320And the manicotta was a big step forward in saying no people have rights and they should be respected.
00:23:52.880but when we started this current strategy of our experimentation with the nation states
00:24:00.740it's only a couple hundred years old especially with democracy and there were a whole bunch of
00:24:05.040assumptions the assumption in part was that our economies are national and pretty much
00:24:11.700self-contained our environment is national and pretty much self-contained so the idea of bound
00:24:17.040in this to some extent made sense never completely made sense but it made to some extent made sense
00:24:22.000But as we sort of came further and further into the 19th and 20th century and the 21st century, we started recognizing that not only do people move, but products move, and that's a good thing.
00:24:33.840If you think about human beings, I mean, if we didn't move, we'd all still be in East Africa.0.50
00:24:51.180So all of us have long had a history of moving.
00:24:54.420What we've done in the United States and around the world is we've actually tried to extract the benefit of movement for things, for the benefit of the elites, but then tell people they can't move.
00:25:08.180Now, when you think about it, it's interesting because the European experiment was just the opposite.
00:25:13.660They said things can move, but so can people.
00:25:17.160So they made their borders more porous.
00:25:19.660And so we're trying to have it both ways.
00:25:21.360We want all the technology around the world,
00:25:23.620we want all the minerals, we want all the stuff,
00:26:39.980We've done it to the benefit of certain countries.
00:26:43.420So the concern, to some extent, makes sense, that people are feeling anxious about all the change.
00:26:48.860The solution, though, is not a real solution.
00:26:51.860The dynamics that's creating that disability or that disequilibrium is going to continue,
00:26:57.840even if we were capable of building borders, even if we were capable of building walls.0.92
00:27:01.860So part of the thing is we need a new way of thinking about citizenship.
00:27:05.980We need a way where there's some parallel between stuff and people.
00:27:12.020We need to recognize that we need a way of sharing the earth with all people and with the rest of the earth.
00:27:19.600And it's not the United States has this corner.
00:27:22.200I mean, we have bases literally all over the world.
00:27:25.000We sort of see the world as our playground.0.85
00:27:27.000And then as yet we have this idea that under Trump, at least, America is on for really white Europeans.0.63
00:27:35.040And there's this entitlement that comes with the conditioning of being especially a white American, that white Americans should be entitled to have anything they want anywhere in the world and not take care of the people or the places, the land, the waters that provide all of these luxury items or creature comforts.
00:28:00.960So I really get chills when I think about that and reading that quote that you had from
00:31:47.220Don't need to say that's not an issue because it's not an issue for me.
00:31:50.900You know, I don't really worry about being homeless, but I know thousands of people in the United States are homeless.
00:31:56.140So do I say, I mean, part of it is kind of a group-based egotism.
00:32:00.080I only care about what affects me directly, and that's all you should care about, too.
00:32:05.720And I hope that the Democratic Party, in essence, have matured enough, because frankly, it's running away from race.
00:32:13.060It's not simply saying the economy is most important.
00:32:15.260when they started doing that when they saw how the republicans were effectively using race
00:32:19.660so it'd be one thing if race or some musicians weren't on the table but they're on the table
00:32:24.500but it's only being used by one side the other side democrats largely have been afraid it's like
00:32:30.520no we can't talk about that they can talk about it they are talking about it but if we talk about
00:32:35.600it we'll get blasted by our white base and that says you haven't developed your white base well
00:32:41.320You should and increasingly shouldn't feel threatened because people of color are doing better.
00:32:48.160It's not a zero sum game. And part of it is to make that story clear.
00:32:52.080We're not talking about helping Latinos and not helping blacks, helping blacks, but not helping Native Americans, helping men, but not helping women.
00:32:59.280We're talking about everybody. And that's the story we need to be talking about.
00:33:02.520But everybody recognizing people need different things.
00:33:05.700So not everybody's going to do one thing because one thing is not going to affect everybody.
00:33:10.960in a positive way. So we have to be much more attentive as to how people are situated.
00:33:15.880And I refer to that as targeting universalism.
00:33:19.560I have so many questions based off that response. And I don't really know how to
00:33:25.720frame it right now because I do see the complexity that everybody's problems needs to be heard
00:33:33.640because they're all different. It's hard to say that there is a hierarchy of issues,
00:33:38.760but I think probably there is but who gets to decide that then again we're like mired in these
00:33:45.260complications of dominance and and then and then I feel like we kind of swirl into this
00:33:50.740crash this crashing moment of well how do we even start or or where do we even begin to look at all
00:33:59.220these issues at once and who's deciding which which issues are prioritized and you know you
00:34:06.020You don't have to answer that question because it's not really a well-formed one, but I definitely feel...
00:34:18.540People who are most marginal, we have to make sure their stories are centered.
00:34:22.140We have to make sure they're practice centered.
00:34:23.760So when you have a meeting, for example, oftentimes I live in Berkeley.
00:34:27.400Oftentimes if you're middle class myself, it's easy for me to get there.
00:34:30.560A lot of people, they can't get off work.
00:34:32.420They don't have a car if they do get off work.
00:34:34.160so it's like just have a meeting is not making it accessible what do i need to do to make things
00:34:39.620accessible to make it meaningful for our groups and we have the concept that comes from belonging
00:34:45.080as belonging which is different than inclusion belonging is about co-creating the thing you're
00:34:50.940joining so yes some groups have a history of actually having a big voice we're not saying
00:34:56.820we don't want them to be silent we want their voice to step back and let other voices come
00:35:01.620forward and so we live in structures and and how do we make these structures work for all of us
00:35:07.720how do we think about structural inclusion and structural belonging and i'll give you a concrete
00:35:11.740example you know i use this a lot it's like we build an escalator to get people from one floor
00:35:17.840to the other and then someone comes along in a wheelchair so the system we built doesn't work
00:35:23.760for that person and so it looks like that person is asking for something special but that person
00:35:28.220was asking for what everyone else was asking for, the resources and support to fully participate
00:35:33.260in society as a person and as a human being to contribute. But what people need to get there,
00:35:39.720what groups need to get there are going to be different. And so there's not an absolute
00:35:45.600priority, but there is recognizing that some people are more on the edge than others. And
00:35:50.700in some ways, it's not even issues. It is issues, but it really starts with respecting our human
00:35:56.240dignity once i really respect and care about people then they'll tell me what they need and
00:36:02.620and you know but if i'm saying most people don't count or those people aren't visible
00:36:07.280that becomes a priority when we change the structure oftentimes if we change from the
00:36:13.740most marginal everybody else benefits think of uh curve cuts my friend angela blackwell talks
00:36:21.080about this a lot. Curve cuts was for people largely in wheelchairs. But if you have a roller
00:36:28.060bag and you catch a plane, or if you have a baby stroller, use curb cuts. If you have a scooter,
00:36:33.460use curb cuts. So oftentimes when you change the structure for the most marginal,
00:36:38.320it also benefits everybody else along the way. This next question is around white supremacy.
00:36:46.240And I've been thinking back enslaved Africans who were forced to the British colonies in 1619, meaning that this year actually marks the 400th year since enslaved people were forced to the United States.
00:37:03.680And this act has fundamentally shaped this country in a multitude of ways.
00:37:08.840And I know I've heard you previously speak to Toni Morrison's work, where she poses the question around what has slavery done to white people? And so I want to broach this question around whiteness, supremacy, and separation when it comes to whiteness as an ideology.
00:37:26.940And I'm simultaneously thinking about the invisibility, privilege, and torment of whiteness.0.58
00:37:35.700You know, I think privilege in the benefits white people reap in our racial system, invisibility
00:37:41.700in its assumed status as the norm, and torment in the inherent perversion that comes from
00:37:48.620benefiting from a system of dehumanization.
00:37:50.960And so I know this is a huge question, but I'm hoping to ask you to speak to the necessity of a different sense of understanding of whiteness and how that is a part of liberating us from ideologies of dominance and hierarchy.
00:38:09.800I would assert that a lot of the ideology of dominance comes from anxiety and fear.
00:38:16.800And so part of this is to think about what is the underlying anxiety and fear.0.65
00:38:20.580And I would say whiteness as an ideology has all these apparent benefits, but it actually has all of these problems associated with it as well.0.99
00:38:29.640If you think of a small we, like the ethnic nationals do today,0.87
00:38:34.380and it's not just around whiteness, sometimes it's around Hinduism in India0.89
00:38:38.460or around, you know, religion or the way people talk.
00:38:43.120So whiteness is the expression that takes the dominant form in the United States
00:38:46.760with organizing around race and some other important axis.
00:43:11.920How do we actually institutionalize that?
00:43:13.600How do we actually make it real so we have, again, a future where we all belong?
00:43:43.600does blow, better make a grateful charm and back it up with a grateful soul. Young or dumb am I, I've seen a few people die, seen a few people living in a way that's given off line.
00:44:06.600I look to my left. I look to my right. I have two M's. Terrifying. Terrifying. Terrifying.0.97
00:44:24.160I know that these conversations are more often than not uncomfortable,
00:44:32.080especially because white people are not taught to or forced to talk about race and so there's a lot
00:44:38.880of white fragility that can come up for people and additionally the conversations that are
00:44:43.620happening and the narratives presented in the mainstream refuse to confront the structure and
00:44:48.700the systems that perpetuate white supremacy so i'd like to ask you both the importance and necessity
00:44:55.840of being uncomfortable, and then how we can contribute and create conversations that confront
00:45:02.520structural racism and the reality that we are a country that has and continues to devalue life
00:45:09.720in so many ways. Right. No, I completely agree. I would expand it though, because we need,
00:45:16.000as this friend says, we need policies, we need practice, we need perception, we need stories.
00:48:19.980There's a power imbalance, center of white pain, but everybody has pain.0.62
00:48:24.640And the way we actually invite people into a conversation is to also acknowledge their
00:48:29.160pain without equating it to other people's pain.
00:48:32.100And so I think sometimes our desire to have these conversations means we rush too fast to, in a sense, not recognize someone else's psychological, not recognize someone else's pain, and we want them to recognize ours.
00:48:48.220Thinking about, you know, your work with the Haas Institute at UC Berkeley, and it serves as a hub for organizers and policymakers and researchers to, quote, identify and eliminate the barriers to an inclusive, just and sustainable society in order to create transformative change, end quote.
00:49:06.460And I saw that one issue that the Haas Institute devotes a significant amount of energy towards is that of creating new economic structures, not just economic inclusion.
00:49:20.380And that feels like a topic that is so central to so many conversations I've had on For the Wild podcast.
00:49:27.100So I'm curious to hear you speak on how it is possible to simultaneously incorporate systematically disenfranchised communities into the economic system while also navigating this understanding that we're moving into an era where we'll see mass ecological collapse due to that same economic system.
00:49:49.700So how do we foster economic well-being for communities, especially with the understanding that belonging is indeed impacted by economic structures, while ensuring we do not support the continuation of catastrophic capitalism?
00:50:06.320them? Well, again, another great question. Justice Diggler basically said our current economic crisis
00:50:12.620is not economic, it's political. And by that he means we've made choices. There's no such thing
00:50:18.640as a free market. All markets are regulated and should be regulated. And they can be over-regulated,
00:50:24.240they can be under-regulated, they can be regulated badly, but they can't. I mean, without regulations,
00:50:29.380we don't have money. Money is only an agreement that comes from the regulation. Most people don't,
00:50:34.120You know, remember that, that you have money in your pocket, you have a regulated part of the regulated economy in your pocket.
00:50:40.640And the question is, how do we actually make it work for everyone?
00:50:43.680And not just ultimately everyone in the United States, but everyone in the world.
00:50:47.600By some accounts, our current aspirations in terms of use of natural resources, the way we use natural resources in a sustainable way, requires at least 1.5 planets.
00:51:03.300And that number is probably going up. And so part of it is to think about not just communities, but that's certainly important, but also think about the planet.
00:51:11.960And the fact that we have a seen number and growing number of billionaires is also problematic in the sense that all the times that money from not just individuals, but corporations distort the whole political economy, the lobbying.
00:51:25.960You know, it's interesting when corporations were first stripped of their government credentials because at the early part of the United States, corporations were an extension of the government.
00:51:38.180And then in the 1830s, they started moving away from that.
00:51:43.160And one of the first Supreme Court cases that dealt with that said, okay, we're going to create this space where government and corporations are separate, but corporations will never be able to influence the political structure.
00:51:54.500That was the Supreme Court saying that.
00:51:56.880Because they were saying even then, in the 1830s,
00:51:59.820we recognize that if they're allowed to influence the political structure,
00:52:18.480So corporations are not necessarily bad enough themselves,
00:52:21.460But the way we structure them is extremely problematic. We institutionalize greed and irresponsibility and lack of accountability, especially at the financial sector, especially when we look at what's coming out of Wall Street. So in some way, the credit market is even more ferocious than other markets.
00:52:40.500john this has been such an incredible conversation and i feel like i could speak with you for hours
00:52:47.880if there's anything that hadn't been mentioned or asked by me that you want to make sure
00:52:52.580is mentioned at this time please the floor is yours well i'll just say first of all thank you
00:52:59.720and thank your audience i will add one thing part of the anxiety that people are experiencing
00:53:04.220is not just a larger week but also a new week we're becoming new beings that may sound odd
00:53:10.640But if you look historically, who it means to be a person, what it means to be a person has continuously changed.
00:53:16.820When change happens at a rapid rate, you oftentimes have mass hysteria because people don't change easily.
00:53:22.780And you need something to help people with change.
00:53:24.720Sometimes it's religion, sometimes it's a story, sometimes it's a practice.
00:53:29.540We're experiencing that on a global level right now.
00:53:31.760So what it means to be white, what it means to be black, what it means to be gay, what it means to be in America, all those things are going to be renegotiated.
00:53:40.080And in a sense, Trump is trying to renegotiate them.0.92
00:53:42.340He's saying what it means to be American is to be essentially racist, is to be xenophobic, is to be sexist.