00:00:00.000hey for the wild community ayana here welcome to the fifth episode of our new book study series
00:00:15.100earthly reads where we'll learn alongside some of our most beloved authors after listening to
00:00:22.420the shorter conversation head over to for the wild dot world slash book study to learn more
00:00:28.180and to purchase access to the full course we'll be offering significantly more content and access
00:00:33.920to live recorded conversations with the authors on our website we hope to see you there
00:00:39.840we are part of a story of a planet that made herself by saying i am going to hold
00:00:56.720that is so revolutionary especially in relationship to some of the stories that I still hold in my
00:01:07.140head about being alone about being separate about not belonging all of those stories that
00:01:13.840are part of the narrative that's in my head that comes out of my colonial socialization
00:01:20.240and education, it contradicts all of that in such a beautiful way.
00:01:41.080Hello and welcome to For the Wild podcast. I'm Ayanna Young and today we are speaking
00:01:47.340with Alexis Pauline Gumbs, author of Survival is a Promise. Well, Alexis, I am just so relieved
00:01:56.520that through snow and electrical outages and winds, you know, just life that we've made it
00:02:04.980here together. I'm like, my heart is feeling more and more settled every moment we're connected.
00:02:11.340So thank you for being here and spending some time with us today. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Thank
00:02:16.960you so much for inviting me I'm really honored to be here I'm honored you're here and I'm just
00:02:21.520I feel so grateful to have this time to be with you and sink into your book survival as a promise
00:02:31.960the eternal life of Audrey Lorde and it's been out for a few months and I know that it's really
00:02:39.280been moving people and what's on the top of my mind I guess at the moment is in so many ways
00:02:45.560to me this book defies expectations about what a biography should be and I'm wondering
00:02:53.640how you approach this project through a lens of intimacy and care yeah you know the way you said
00:03:01.460that really resonates because I think that Audre Lorde experienced that herself you know she
00:03:09.260She experienced exceeding and defying and deviating from expectations of who she should be.
00:03:21.060And maybe not always with so much wonder, curiosity and care when she was growing up.
00:03:28.720And so I think of this work that I get to be involved in, you know, this intergenerational and ancestral work of listening and sharing and connecting as a form of finding ceremony.
00:03:46.940You know, like what's the ceremony for Audre Lorde's presence with us now?
00:03:56.600There's a point at which there's not really a separation between maybe like what would baby Audrey have needed and what does some part of each of us also need in terms of being able to be held as we exceed and deviate from and don't conform to expectations.
00:04:25.480that have been put on us. So yeah, I think that that observation makes a lot of sense.
00:04:34.260I mean, you could also just say, I feel more loyal to the ongoing and eternal life of Audre Lorde
00:04:47.400itself as an energetic force than I do to any form, be it the biography, be it the podcast,
00:04:57.780whatever these forms are and the expectations that adhere to them,
00:05:05.300they can change. We're finding in all of it the ceremonies that we need. So I do think that it's
00:05:16.940an act of care. You know, just like some of the acts of care that I've received from my mentors,
00:05:23.100from my parents, people who've been like, huh, we're not going to shove this child into this box
00:05:32.920and we're going to be curious about her. We're going to stay with her. We're going to see
00:05:38.760what forms actually support her in her life. That hasn't been my experience at every single
00:05:45.260encounter, every single part of my education, we could say, or every single institution that I've
00:05:51.320dealt with. But when it has been the case, it's taught me so much about what love and care is.
00:05:59.080And I want that. I want that for us. I want that for the little ones. I want that for
00:06:07.180our ancestors. And I think that part of the way that I learn how to relate to you with that kind
00:06:15.780of curiosity, care, and interest is also by the rigor of what it is to relate to our ancestors
00:06:27.200that way. So biography, it's just a clue. You know, it's just a clue that there really is
00:06:37.140a life there. There's life and there's writing. That's what biography means.
00:06:43.600But the ways that biography has been a box or it's been a way to kind of
00:06:54.000close down and try to have the last word about something or whatever it has been
00:07:00.320that this biography is not necessarily is one thing. And then there's just always a question of
00:07:10.580what does our love require of us? And the love that I've received from Audre Lorde's life and
00:07:17.000her work and the love that I feel and the love that I have, that's the guide. And
00:07:24.180at every point in this process, including this point in this process, that's always my question.
00:07:33.620And I wouldn't say I'm always finding the perfect answer for it, but that's the journey I'm on.
00:07:39.480And that's what I'm listening for within myself. What is love asking of me right now?
00:07:44.300i feel so settled like heavy in this like ah exhale by your words and as you were talking
00:07:54.540about ancestors there is this eagle that literally just laid in the wind in the sky
00:08:00.640as you were talking and i was like what is going on
00:08:03.620exactly now that i'm stuttering i'm gonna go do a quote to help focus me there was something you
00:08:14.120writes saying, quote, my task is to follow Audrey, who studied the earth and the universe closely
00:08:20.200from childhood through the end of her life, and to honor the fact that the scale of the life of
00:08:26.440the poet is the scale of the universe, end quote. And yeah, some of the most specific parts of your
00:08:35.880book also feel like the parts that are the most universally relatable and I'm just wondering how
00:08:45.460did you tune your writing to details like Audrey's relationship to the earth that yeah that may have
00:08:52.360escaped more traditional biography categories I love that you chose that quote it is so my job
00:09:01.400to follow Audrey like in every way in every way in the writing of that project but just
00:09:08.900I feel like that's part of my my soul's purpose and so in Audrey Lorde's poetry she has all these
00:09:18.480beautiful details right and she writes constantly about earth I mean just today I was like how many
00:09:27.580times that she's used just the word mountain. And it's like so many times, you know, across her
00:09:32.920poetry, her work is geological. The way that she thought and the way that she expressed herself
00:09:41.220was so intimate with the processes and the characteristics of this planet. And
00:09:51.440And it's something that almost could fade into the background.
00:09:59.940But for me, the revelation of this stage of my job of following Audrey was to say, wait a minute, that's not the background.
00:10:13.180And there's a possibility of living that we could all have access to following Audrey if we were to say, oh, this planet was never a backdrop for our lives.
00:10:33.740That's the opportunity that Audrey Lorde opens up with her poetry all the time, right?
00:10:37.360So writing or creating a portable ceremony, which is how I think of it, for the eternal life of Audre Lorde to be something that you can hold in your hands or someone can listen to as an audio book or however it is that they access it.
00:10:52.860I thought about that practice that she had of lacing us through these details and what are the details that actually allow us to connect in to what is possible for us in this relationship at this time.
00:11:15.100That's what I was thinking through. And I mean, because the reality is, as a follower of Audre Lorde, as somebody immersed in her archives, as someone with the great gift of being able to listen to stories about her from people who love her and were taught by her, I have so many details, like so many details, right?
00:11:38.600But I can't just like transfer all of that to everybody in some kind of hard drive or something like that. I then have the task, which is the same task of the poet to say, okay, so out of all these details, it's almost like a divination or maybe like making a collage.
00:19:02.160There's another relationship that we can have. And we're all, everybody that I know, survivors of this totalizing extractivist logic. And we have the opportunity to unlearn that. And we have the opportunity to remember something.
00:19:47.340there is no separation and I'm finding the connection finding the connection finding the
00:19:53.200connection so in that too I feel that I'm following Audrey she is talking about these
00:20:01.540things and so I have to understand them in a way that I can understand them and she was this type
00:20:09.900of person who would be following that curiosity. And that's a part of myself that I love that I'm
00:20:18.400even growing my relationship to by following Audrey. What is graphite? What's my relationship
00:20:28.660to graphite? What is the possibility of graphite? What are the different destinies of graphite?
00:20:34.560And what does it mean when a Black woman poet writes in pencil about coal and says, this is how I'm redefining Blackness inside the Black arts movement for Black people?
00:20:52.680What does that mean? And if I don't take for granted the elemental aspect of that, the fact that it's not just that she's talking about coal because she likes the sound of the word coal.
00:21:09.460She might. She's actually saying, we are in every layer of this earth. We are in the depths of this
00:21:20.860earth. We are something that's complicated enough to have multiple destinies as a diamond, as a mark
00:21:32.860on a page as a breath. If I could, and this is what I hope to do, you know, if I can be in
00:21:43.600relationship with these ancestors in such a way, this is part of the eternal life. This is part of
00:21:50.660the aliveness of Audre Lorde is that in my relationship with her work, I refuse for
00:22:02.420the process of transformation that she's in and that she ignites with her work to be over.
00:22:12.860it's not over so I can't simply tell you something about it I have to participate in it with you
00:22:22.680that's the standard that I'm holding myself to in this work yeah what a standard it's beautiful
00:22:30.600that you ask that of yourself and I think gets us out of so many of the questions that stifle us
00:22:39.940and that pain us and that disconnect us but it but the wonder like that's what i'm really i think
00:22:45.920you is the wonder and i feel it in your voice and in your writing and there's another very wondrous
00:22:53.420quote that i wanted to read from you and it's quote the core of the earth is mostly iron it has
00:23:00.080a relatively stable nucleus and so when stars explode a lot of iron stays iron when this planet
00:23:07.840it made herself out of stardust and gravity, it was iron that pulled her together around herself.
00:23:14.74085% iron at the core of this world. Our attraction to her is everything we know.
00:23:23.180End quote. I've never put those thoughts together, but I feel the words so true in my core. And so,
00:23:34.200yeah, I just want to hear you speak more about this attraction and how it factors into your life
00:23:41.100and factored into Audrey's as well. Yeah. You know, yeah, it comes back around to what you said
00:23:46.920about intimacy and care at the beginning, right? Like this is, and what you just said about
00:23:53.180curiosity, that it's not a curiosity that's like a colonial question to find the answer to now
00:24:01.680dominate the situation, right? It's a curiosity that is this opening to an intimate reality of
00:24:11.180being part of this transformation. This is what this planet is. This planet is part of a cosmic
00:24:18.520transformation. And iron and gravity, like, this is the experience that we're having, right?
00:24:28.020And so, you know, like you were saying just now, it's mystical, right?
00:24:33.980So it holds in it this infinite possibility, right?
00:24:37.820And there's a vulnerability in that, right?
00:24:40.860I do think that's a form of intimacy, being open to the infinite possibility, which is
00:24:45.860why I come back to Audre Lorde saying, love is a word, another kind of open.
00:24:50.620That's what she says right before she goes into this idea of being Black because she
00:24:57.160And it is mystical. But at the same time, it's like the other word you use. It's grounding and it's grounded. That passage that you just read, it's super mystical.
00:25:13.220But at the same time, it really is my description of the scientific reality of iron and like
00:25:21.600iron's relationship to earth and the weight of the elements relative to each other and
00:25:28.280what their role is in the cosmic process of a planet assembling itself.
00:26:05.120we have a relationship a gravitational relationship of attraction that has us be
00:26:15.200part of this planet and it holds us that relationship holds us in relationship
00:26:24.400it's really for me it's a it's a healing and beautiful image because I am remembering to
00:26:34.060embrace that, embrace that reality of groundedness, of being part of earth.
00:26:43.120And what there is on the other side of that is dissociation, the dissociation that has been
00:26:52.180part of my coping mechanisms, the dissociation that happens when I'm triggered by acts of
00:26:58.040violence and oppression against my communities, against people that I love and against me
00:27:03.180personally, but I am held and I am part of this planet. And this planet, we are part of a story
00:27:12.000of a planet that made herself by saying, I am going to hold. And it's the weight of iron that
00:27:22.060is a core part of that process. And so, I mean, Ayana, you know this, like this is why you live
00:27:30.480the way you live. But the reality that I think that those who would imagine that we could be
00:27:40.360oppressed don't want us to know is every single thing, all of it loves us. Iron loves me.
00:27:52.540Iron is like an embrace that I'm a part of. That is so revolutionary, especially in relationship
00:28:05.720to some of the stories that I still hold in my head about being alone, about being separate,
00:28:11.840about not belonging. All of those stories that are part of the narrative that's in my head
00:28:18.620that comes out of my colonial socialization and education, it contradicts all of that
00:28:26.400in such a beautiful way. And so it's like, it's like an origin story, you know, but it is also
00:28:38.560for me, and I have to say this, this is part of following Audrey. It's also for me being like,
00:28:43.580reading all this stuff about iron and like the elements and the weight of the elements and
00:28:50.080you know what is what causes a planet like how all of these things that I'm curious about
00:28:57.040and I'm following my curiosity emboldened by the curiosity of Audre Lorde and this is the way that
00:29:03.800I can say it you know this is the way that I can say it that that I find the truth in it
00:29:11.780But this is also the way that I can say it where I'm not just listing some facts for you to now read those facts. It's like, this is the way for me to say it that's part of the prayer. That's part of the prayer of return that's possible for me in that knowledge.
00:29:32.380And it is a decolonial approach to what knowledge is and what knowledge is for.
00:29:42.240This idea of curiosity, it's the possibility of remembering our connection.
00:29:48.520Because of course everything's connected.
00:29:51.800But again, we're constantly in the experience of how and like the wonder of, oh my gosh,
00:29:58.140You know, like I know that we're connected, but then the experience of it, right, it's, it is an experience of wonder and it's an experience of reverence.
00:30:08.220And how can I remember that to be a part of this earth is like, it's not just some like mundane thing that I'm getting through.
00:30:16.800It's like iron enveloping itself and becoming a plant, you know, like it's everything and it's always accessible to me.
00:30:25.760I'm always having this experience of a relationship to gravity, even when I think that I'm just floating out here unrelated and isolated.
00:30:37.860thank you for listening to the fifth episode of for the wild slow study series earthly reads with
00:30:59.980alexis pauline gums this was the first 30 minutes of an over hour long conversation between ayana
00:31:06.260and Alexis. To get the full experience, join our book study where we will gather with authors like
00:31:12.380Alexis, as well as Adrienne Marie Brown, Tricia Hersey, Prentice Hemphill, Celine Simon, and
00:31:19.800Marsha Bjornrud for an even deeper dive into their recent writings. To learn more, please visit
00:31:26.460forthewild.world slash bookstudy or join us on Patreon. The music for this series is from the
00:31:33.700compilation Staying, leaving record's aid to artists impacted by the Los Angeles wildfires.
00:31:39.880The musicians featured in this episode are Kul Mary Time, Matt Baldwin, Sharda Shashidar,
00:31:47.100and Caleb Buchanan. For the Wild is made by Ayanna Young, Erica Ekrem, Julia Jackson,
00:31:54.320Jackson Kroof, Kylea Lofton, Zandashe Brown, and Viva Whitman. Thanks for listening.
00:32:03.700And every moment fading like a hazy lie