00:02:54.820Like I always write a note in the beginning of the book when people ask me to sign it.
00:02:59.400I always write, thank you for opening up yourself to me.
00:03:03.160Like this really is what the hope of this book is about, is really an openness to our
00:03:09.080part of the world, to our stories, to seeing us as human and to also understanding that
00:03:15.660we come in multitude and complexities and we're not in a monolith of our own selves.
00:03:22.020What I hope it sparks is this curiosity, this openness to the other part of the world that
00:03:27.760is not in the dominant media and is not seen or heard or, you know, even the language in which I
00:03:33.800wrote the book in English is my third language, as you can hear in my accent clearly. But that
00:03:38.880effort is my part of reaching out. And I'm hoping that folks who are reading it are able to reach
00:03:45.040out back to us. Yeah, thank you for that. And I really love the word curiosity right now. I think
00:03:53.460when we can remember to be curious, the world does open and there's a type of relating to one
00:03:59.840another that changes so drastically when our curiosity is open, yeah, and at the surface
00:04:05.180and we want to learn about each other. When I'm thinking to your book, of course, the text is
00:04:10.660beautiful, but also the creativity and the publishing, just the art of the book, I think,
00:04:16.300also sparks a lot of curiosity and desire to learn more. I just want to appreciate the art
00:04:21.660and the photos in the book a bit. I'm interested to hear about the design strategy for the book
00:04:27.360itself and how that part came to you. For those of you who don't know what it is, I'll describe
00:04:33.440it. So the image description is, it's a small book. It's an unusually small book, I would say,
00:04:39.380compared to the sizes of books are these days. It's a soft cover. It's more traditionally closer
00:04:45.700to folio books or penguin books of the 90s or the 80s where books basically were the size of your
00:04:53.560hand and it says a woman is a school and the illustration is a line drawing of a person with
00:05:00.200a mouth open and each one of her teeth are buildings in Lebanon so there's a church a mosque
00:05:07.360and then some other buildings and they constitute her teeth and I drew this sketch as I was writing
00:05:15.380the book and I sent it to at the time my publisher who's no longer my publisher and she loved it and
00:05:21.660she was like oh wow this could be potentially the cover and I said that's exactly what I have in
00:05:26.600mind that's I see it as the cover where her mouth when she opens her mouth it's each building of a
00:05:34.460city and through her mouth we enter the city and we enter the city through storytelling and we
00:05:40.200enter the country and the culture through the mouth of this person that's telling us the stories
00:05:46.560and it signifies and symbolizes the tradition of our culture in my culture as a Lebanese person
00:05:54.180the tradition of the Hakawatiya or the Hakawati and Hakawati means storyteller and Hakawatiya
00:06:01.140means storyteller for women and it's not just typical of Lebanon it's really of the region
00:06:07.620of the Levant for Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and that area of the world where
00:06:14.800traditionally storytellers would be the ones that are holding the wisdom, holding the history,
00:06:21.560holding the culture and the knowledge. And they serve as oracles almost in a society.
00:06:29.180And people with problems would go to these storytellers, the Hakawati's or the Hakawatiya,
00:06:34.960And they would tell them their problems and the storytellers will tell them a whole story unrelated to their problems, but that somehow contain this wisdom and this quality of knowledge that is needed at this very moment in time.
00:06:52.820And that's what the Hakawetis are, the storytellers.
00:06:55.560So that's what this cover means, the cover of the book and the book.
00:09:11.820It's also very much grounded in the culture of the people of the Levant or the people in Lebanon that I speak about and how we were raised.
00:09:25.140So this book is definitely talking about how we were raised in that part of the world and offers a window through the mouth of this woman who's telling the stories about how we are raised far, far away in this world that honestly is not centered and is constantly under so much trauma and so much insecurity and so much violence.
00:12:53.240My father opened the roads that led us to the belly of the beast, the global north,
00:12:57.520the west, the so-called civilized world, end quote.
00:13:02.260How does it feel to be sharing this story now?
00:13:05.480You know, as I was writing it, it felt both great and awful at different times because
00:13:11.580sometimes it would feel liberating and sometimes it would feel excruciating to be even writing this
00:13:18.420down and to share so much about my life. Things that I thought I had dealt with, but then as I
00:13:27.840was writing them, they broke me again, you know? Now that the book is done, when I got the galleys
00:13:34.660and I read it in the plane going to Lebanon just before the latest invasion that we've witnessed,
00:13:41.580And reading it cover to cover in the plane as I landed in Lebanon, something really shifted in me that felt like, oh, wow, I understood myself for a second, you know, and all of these aches and pains that I felt somewhat had their moment in this book, you know, and I was able to heal for a second.
00:14:04.760And not that it lasted very long, sadly, but it was a great moment of healing, of release, of exhale that I felt after reading this book in the plane, cover to cover, on my way to Lebanon.
00:14:18.940And on my way back, reading the edits and knowing that this book is going to be going into print, this sense of completion, I did it.
00:14:30.940You know, I was able to to put into words a very intense lived experience throughout my life.
00:14:41.000So that's a little bit how I how I felt.
00:14:47.620I wonder how you're reckoning with questions of exile and the dynamics the global north plays into conflict like this.
00:14:57.720i don't know you know i mean i feel like right now my parents are being displaced
00:15:03.920my family members are being displaced it's hard to reconcile and to understand what that means
00:15:10.240we live in a lot of pain not just for ourselves but for our siblings for our
00:15:16.620you know our people the people of syria the people of palestine you know and also the people of sudan
00:15:25.360the people of Congo there is a solidarity with each other that is ultimately like we can't deny it
00:15:35.660and we can't you know do anything about it at the same time I don't have any answer really about
00:15:45.560that. Yeah. And I can see how there really is no answer. I really see how this book is both so
00:15:55.320personal to your life and also so deeply informed by the global consciousness and struggle. And
00:16:01.140there's another quote saying, as I'm writing these words at the end of 2023, genocide is occurring
00:16:07.580in Gaza. The war looms over Lebanon. Living in a perpetual climate of uncertainty has imprinted
00:16:13.740my worldview, my life, and the decisions I have made in both my career and personal life.
00:16:19.540We grew up being wary of whatever consensus the mainstream media adopted and how we were
00:16:24.900portrayed. From a very young age, I understood the value of being surrounded by a trustworthy
00:16:29.680community, especially in the midst of the tragedy, end quote. So how are you centering community and
00:16:37.520survival in these times you know for us at slow factory we are a community first and foremost and
00:16:44.760then since the past i would say the past year we've created spaces offline for community i know
00:16:53.500we are very big online but we do a lot of work offline as well and we try our best to balance
00:16:59.660the two in fact so much so that now we have felt a tip of balance between what's happening online
00:17:31.740we have created space for that community
00:17:35.160through something called the liberation lunches that we host which are long Sunday afternoon
00:17:42.060lunches very much designed after the Lebanese lunches where we eat lunch for a very long time
00:17:47.880there's music and we talk and we just you know unwind together and and so we spend time together
00:17:57.240in this in the sacred space of sharing lunch we also have created space to watch films together
00:18:04.280So screenings of Palestinian films, of Lebanese films, of Syrian films, of films that aren't, you know, accessible necessarily in the mainstream.
00:18:16.680We've also spent time reading through book clubs, offline, reading together, discussing books, meaningful books together.
00:18:25.060this summer we had the opportunity to also convene in nature and to create like a sort of
00:18:32.120retreat for our team and our extended team so not just the team that works daily on slow factory but
00:18:39.300the people that are part of our community fellows artists that we work with and to providing them
00:18:45.200two days of total release in nature so through healing modalities from reiki to breath work
00:18:54.940to walking in the forest and planting and swimming
00:19:19.120Yes, it's just so, I really appreciating
00:19:21.600and noticing how much I need to be with people and to eat and to laugh and to dance and to talk
00:19:29.880and to cry and just be human together. Yeah. Gosh, I'm wondering about this idea of the feminine
00:19:39.120and unwritten knowledge. And it's so clear in your work how colonization and power differentials
00:19:46.560come to pit those being harmed against each other, when there's horizontal hostility and
00:19:52.260there's infighting. And there's this quote that I want to read from your book. Often it is women
00:19:57.880who are the first to impose oppressive structures on other women as they attempt to control their
00:20:03.300own and other women's bodies and minds. It is often women who dictate what is allowed for a
00:20:09.120woman to do and what isn't, a reflection of the oppression that we have been forced upon them.
00:20:14.600When we choose to heal ourselves first, especially our relationship to power and control, we can break down the stone mountain of shame that resides in all of us, allowing for intergenerational healing, end quote.
00:20:28.540This theme, this quote, these ideas, there's so much here that I don't even really know what the question is.
00:20:35.880I think this is a tender topic that many of us feel but don't often know how to speak to.
00:20:41.440Yes, especially when they believe the same thing, because if you are someone who is doing
00:20:46.100something and challenging things, and you are not doing exactly what other people want
00:20:51.780you to do, there is a condition to their support.
00:20:55.200And because we live in this place of conditionality and transactional friendships and transactional
00:21:01.240love, again, I talk about it in one of my chapters about radical generosity, there's
00:21:20.620This isn't something that we would be working through conditions.
00:21:24.760And if you don't do what I say, I'm going to destroy you online, offline, whatever.
00:21:29.900I'm going to make sure people hate you, you know.
00:21:33.080And that has happened to me and has happened to me again and again and again.
00:21:37.900the first times were very, very painful because it felt as though, you know, I was being utterly
00:21:45.700betrayed by peers, you know, and that betrayal was very painful, very, very painful. I never
00:21:54.120thought that people who believe in the same ideas of liberation would hurt each other that way,
00:21:59.300would purposefully want to take each other down in that way. People who are preaching liberation
00:22:05.920want to basically tear down a woman who is basically coming in this country as a refugee,
00:22:14.400like I couldn't compute in my head. I didn't understand it. I couldn't understand the vitriol
00:22:19.700and the hatred that some people who are talking about liberation would be embodying the complete
00:22:25.540opposite. It was very foreign to me. I couldn't quite understand. And of course, the pain of
00:22:31.980feeling betrayed was actually enlightening because what I realized is that ultimately
00:22:37.140when we are in these types of relationships that are based on conditions somehow somewhere in there
00:22:44.120we've betrayed our own selves to enable these types of conditions upon us and upon each other
00:22:54.240are we living in a place where I'll do this to you if you did this to me I scratch your back if you
00:23:00.620scratch mine or are we in a place where it's safe and going back to what we were talking earlier
00:23:06.160that we have faith in one another that we have grace for one another now doesn't that
00:23:12.980feel a little bit more like liberation or a little bit more aligned with these values that we preach
00:23:20.160and again this punitive energy that is either online or offline with peers or what you said
00:23:28.180like this sort of a take down, tear down, backstabbing energy in some of our spaces
00:23:35.140only benefits the people at the very top. As you saw after, you know, Trump won the elections just
00:23:43.360recently, him and Biden met at the White House, shook hand and discussed because ultimately what?
00:23:49.700They're on the same side. They're on the same side. And we are not. And we must learn solidarity. We must learn grace. We must learn intimacy between one another where we're not blocking someone because they just simply don't do exactly what we ask them to do.
00:24:11.080that has happened to me recently even I feel like conflict resolution these are skills that are
00:24:19.480needed in our society to be able to address the hurt without punching back you know and the skill
00:24:28.900honestly the skill you said I am strong but honestly I am the softest I am the softest I am
00:24:34.960not strong. I am the mushiest person because that's the skill is to stay soft in this fight,
00:24:42.740is to stay open, to remain in faith, to have faith, even though everything points against
00:24:50.000that direction. It's true that this work is ruthless. It's ruthless. Yesterday, I was at a
00:24:57.120talk at Columbia University and someone there said that it's easy to get mad at people with
00:25:03.740no structural power. Like us, it's easy to punch and to use either me or Slow Factory as a punching
00:25:12.360bag because I have no structural power. And we have become these punching bags because we're
00:25:19.840not in real relationship with one another. We're not really witnessing one another as human beings.
00:25:26.020There is a dehumanization that is allowed, that is permitted, where I am no longer a human when
00:25:32.920that is convenient. There needs to be a space to build intimacy between one another at the level
00:25:38.920where we are leveling up on political education so that we are able to see eye to eye. You know?
00:25:46.400thank you for listening to the fourth episode of for the wild slow study series earthly reads
00:26:04.560celine simon this was the first 30 minutes of an over hour-long conversation between ayana and
00:26:11.060Selene. To hear the full episode, join our book study where we will gather with authors like Selene
00:26:17.680as well as Adrienne Marie Brown, Tricia Hersey, Prentice Hemphill, Alexis Pauline Gumbs,
00:26:24.420and Marsha Bjornrud for an even deeper dive into their recent writings. To learn more,
00:26:30.320please visit forthewild.world slash bookstudy or join us on Patreon. The music for this series