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00:01:08.620If you value this podcast and the great visionaries who have been featured on this platform,
00:02:19.360her indigenous world and the mainstream australian world both challenged her identity in different
00:02:24.520ways she is an australian born artist storyteller mentor and the founder of the returning and we
00:02:31.640collective she runs sensuality weekends and workshops works one-on-one with women and also
00:02:37.420has a podcast and book both called it takes courage to tell the truth well ella thank you
00:02:44.200so much for joining us today. And to Orient listeners, I wonder if you could introduce
00:02:50.220yourself and share a bit about your upbringing and how its polarity has shaped the course of your
00:02:56.220life. Jingila, my name is Ella. I am a Banjulang Dubai from Banjulang Jogan. I also have English
00:03:05.860and Scottish ancestry and honor all my ancestors from across the land. I'd also like to take this
00:03:13.720opportunity to just acknowledge Indigenous people from all around the world and pay my respects to
00:03:21.360elders past, present and emerging and also honour those who live in harmony and understanding of
00:03:29.540kinship and connection to nature. I guess for me my story started at birth, like most of us,
00:03:37.340perhaps even before that in the womb but coming from a mixed heritage family upbringing I was
00:03:45.960thrust back into culture at the age of five when my mom decided to take me and my older brother
00:03:52.980back to country that was 11 hours north of where I was born and at that time it was
00:04:01.8201993 off-grid living wasn't as trending as it is now but we moved on to what was off-grid
00:04:12.280essentially a house with no electricity by a river about an hour out of town and being like
00:04:19.920a young child in these very like formative years of my belief systems and understanding
00:04:26.200living so close to nature and with my indigenous family out in community really impacted me and
00:04:35.000I don't think I understand how much it did until I kind of stepped into adulthood and saw the way
00:04:44.120that I walked through the world a little bit differently I lived there for some time and
00:04:48.940then moved back to the city and kind of had my foot in yeah both spaces both me and my older
00:04:55.220brother you know transitioning from a mission which for those who are in America is the same
00:05:03.640as a reservation it's basically a place where um the missionaries came over during colonization
00:05:09.760and they grouped indigenous people together took them off their land and and christianized them
00:05:15.500essentially but what we moved on to was kind of like the fractured missionary because it was one
00:05:21.920where all the missionaries had left, but the mission was still standing.
00:05:26.560So this kind of, you know, dislocated culture.
00:05:30.200I was brought up in one where we were living close to the land,0.71
00:05:34.260eating, you know, a lot of native bush tucker and animals
00:05:38.920purely because we were an hour away from town.
00:05:42.400But also that was really true for a lot of my family to just be like that,
00:05:46.780to bathe in the river, to have this kind of deep kinship
00:05:51.680and relationship with nature without even naming that and I think having that time yeah my belief
00:05:59.660system about the way that I wanted to work in the world was very much ingrained in custodianship
00:06:06.400and wanting to ally for nature and and also for my indigenous community here in Australia
00:06:13.520it's a interesting time that I have been brought up in with a lot of big kind of cathartic
00:06:22.860moments for Indigenous people happening here on this continent but still a lot to go and
00:06:28.480I really think only in the last couple of years has the mainstream Australia started to understand
00:06:37.540Indigenous trauma, Indigenous culture, and actually that the Indigenous way of being is the most environmental and harmonious.
00:06:47.960Now we're facing a lot of issues where culture was lost and people are trying to, you know, grasp or re-find that element of our culture because it was an oral culture.
00:07:00.260and at the time of colonization you know the hands were put over the mouths of many indigenous people
00:07:08.080and silencing them to continue their oral stories and and culture so yeah I guess a lot of my work
00:07:16.600is refining that for myself and also trying to educate people on a way of being a belief system
00:07:24.600that's beyond this capitalist structure that's been imposed on this continent and has been around
00:07:30.600for a very small amount of time in comparison to the 60 plus thousand years of cultural knowledge
00:07:37.800embedded in the rocks and rivers and mountains beautifully said
00:07:45.080in preparation for this interview and thinking about your work as a sexuality and
00:07:54.160Connectivity Coach, I've really been thinking about the ways in which sexual suppression
00:07:59.760directly leads to behaviors and patterns of harm and abuse. And so as we continue to practice this
00:08:07.680grave denial, we are unable to learn or teach what authentic sexual relations look like or what
00:08:15.500consent feels like, thus creating a violent world and severing the self from spirit. So to begin,
00:08:23.100I'd like to ask you what sexual mythologies you'd like to see dispelled and why is it you think
00:08:28.680we're unable to talk about sexuality authentically? Yeah, I think consent and talking about sexuality
00:08:38.240are so tied into each other. You know, we live in a mainstream culture that doesn't open discussion
00:08:46.840and educate us about sexual relating and sexuality in general there's still quite a lot of silence
00:08:55.060around these topics and I believe it's an underlying belief system that we are upholding
00:09:04.620both in Australia and America but also in European cultures which is that this one that we are
00:09:09.720separate from nature that we're somehow not animals and you know I believe that sex is
00:09:15.480is one of the most primal acts that leads us back to our truest nature when we feel connected it's
00:09:22.180kind of like we belong in the world you know for me when I sit in a place of connection I feel deep0.82
00:09:28.880trust in my body and I think that's what we're missing in the sexuality space is a sense of
00:09:34.740belonging and connection that we can move from this place sex is like such a powerful portal
00:09:42.040to spirituality and altered states of consciousness and some part of me thinks that the
00:09:49.940lack of education has been purposeful that there is so much freedom we can find within
00:09:56.180sexual relations and you know to anybody that's ever experienced the honeymoon period or falling
00:10:03.300in love like what that feels like in your body sometimes for me I can't eat I don't want to
00:10:08.380consume I just want to be wrapped in connection with this other person and I think true sexual
00:10:13.320liberation can actually threaten capitalism and a lot of colonial structures and so therefore it's
00:10:21.520not embedded in our education system which is why this work is so important to teach our next
00:10:27.900generation or to to take on board ourselves to teach our children or open those discussions in
00:10:36.020the home space. You know, I think that a lot of my work is looking at sexuality from a decolonized
00:10:41.660mindset. So one that isn't looking to kind of capitalize it, but rather guide people or assist
00:10:50.320them to realizing that so much of our power is inside of us and that so much of our ability to
00:10:59.920go against these mainstream capitalist ways of being is embedded in deep connection I think a
00:11:07.520big myth as well that I really blown open is just what sex is and defining that for myself you know
00:11:15.580as a queer woman I predominantly slept with women for the last 12 years and being in relationships
00:11:21.800with them sex is so different for me it's not just penetration it's it's whatever makes me move into
00:11:29.340a place of feeling love and respect. And I guess for me, love, trust, and respect are the places
00:11:38.080that I think people should move to sex from. Again, these patriarchal viewpoints on sexuality
00:11:46.440can tend to creep into our subconscious mind of, oh, I have to be the best at it, or what that
00:11:53.380even looks like to be the best in bed but through my work I don't think that there is a best I think
00:12:00.720it is just based on connection you know and presence and deep listening is for me the number
00:12:09.180one way to enrich a sex life and it's like looking at sex the same we may look at it as a spiritual
00:12:15.780practice is that how can we show up in our entirety in this current moment right here right now
00:12:23.300with not much else going on in our mind and just a place of fun and exploration and from these
00:12:33.140places I think we can learn to relate more healthily and and not see it as uh you know
00:12:42.380sometimes I think there's this idea we need to conquer insects which again is very much a
00:12:48.100patriarchal, colonial mindset, rather than just being in the free flow of what's happening.
00:12:55.280So I guess a lot of reasons why I do this work is because I want to stick it to the man,
00:13:01.040you know, stick it to the capitalist system and remind people that when we're in deep levels of
00:13:08.980connection, we really aren't looking outside of ourselves for anything, really, you know,
00:13:14.920whether that be food or clothing or the next holiday we can really sit in what we have and
00:13:21.760and and be humbled by that yeah that feeling of limerence and passion and excitement is so
00:13:32.160beautiful it's uh yeah it's really one of the best if not to me the best feeling
00:13:39.580we can have as humans and i also like the idea of expanding that to the more than human world
00:13:47.860and being in that limerence lust sensuality with the earth and feeling that that that fire inside
00:13:59.640and also when you're talking about the when you're when you're fully connected with let's say
00:14:07.700another human or with the earth, you don't think about other things. You don't want to. The feeling
00:14:14.500is so fulfilling. And so I really like that spiritual sexual practice as a way to dismantle
00:14:23.220the consumer addiction inside of us. And it kind of leads me to my next question because
00:14:29.780movements for embodiment and the de-stigmatization of sexuality have made incremental gains,
00:14:38.600but they've also been co-opted by consumerism. So often it feels like anytime we're given
00:14:45.300permission to think and speak about sexuality, it's coming from someone who is ultimately trying
00:14:50.800to sell us something. And I think about how our social media may be flooded with influencers who
00:14:57.680are body positive and small scale sex shops who seek out ethical products and highlight the
00:15:04.040diversity of the community that temporarily may feel like something akin to sexual liberation
00:15:09.840or we may confuse it as being proof that we too are in our sexual power but I think it's necessary
00:15:17.700that we stop and take stock of our own consumptive behaviors so can you speak to the popularity of
00:15:26.280sexual wellness, and how we really need to discern the difference between truly harnessing
00:15:31.860one's sexual power versus becoming acclimated with the commodification of sexuality.
00:15:39.140Absolutely. I think, you know, like anything in our current paradigm of culture,
00:15:46.480everything gets commodified. We can see this like spirituality gets commodified,
00:15:51.200which seems so hypocritical in many ways and the same in the sexual and wellness industries is that
00:15:58.660we're forgetting that that true teaching that all of our answers lie within ourselves and I think
00:16:06.820that especially with social media and the influx of information that we currently have from day
00:16:13.860to day it's bombarding us with all of these ideas that may not be true to us that may not be our
00:16:20.760unique individual for me working in this space you start to realize that everybody is so different
00:16:28.640with the way that they want to relate sexually and and and being able to sit with ourselves
00:16:35.000in that space and really understand what our own truths are and not just because they're trending
00:16:41.380on social media is so important to authentic relating it's for me the only place that I can
00:16:49.200act from when I'm moving into places of relating is to really understand myself fully and in this
00:16:56.860way we're also combating a lot of the consumerist culture because it does not cost you anything to
00:17:03.360sit with yourself you know it doesn't cost you anything to ask those answers and sit and deeply
00:17:09.920listen to what may arise in that space. It is an ongoing journey that I think people need to go on
00:17:19.080to start unpacking consumerism and commodification and how we do that in a lot of, I would say,
00:17:27.360scarcity mindset rather than in one that shows a deep abundance and ability to have anything and
00:17:35.300everything we require you know when you step outside of the lens that you may look through
00:17:42.760in your own individualistic space and you look at the the bigger picture of where we live on earth
00:17:48.600everything is given to us freely in many ways you know of course there is reciprocity
00:17:54.320needed in any relationship but we forget that so much is given freely that this world is here to
00:18:02.180be enjoyed that we are beings that seek pleasure and in doing so we should and and hopefully can
00:18:11.200start to see that by changing our belief systems around you know where we put our energy for me
00:18:19.500that is really looking at nature and interdependent relationships with like you said our more than
00:18:26.580human friends and also other human beings that we can really move from a place of strong trust
00:18:33.880like a modification of everything I struggle with you know and I'm sure many people do
00:18:39.320because how can you want to guide or assist people back to their truth and then have it be
00:18:47.740so heavy with money I sometimes struggle with that myself and I think that purely is because
00:18:53.500I'm coming from you know a belief system and an embodied experience of what it's like to be close
00:18:59.720to nature what it is like to have extreme amounts of abundance and not have much money at all but
00:19:05.180still live in a place of such deep love and like not at all scarcity in fact like being and living
00:19:16.220in a space of close to the earth or close to the waters or close to my partner or my community
00:19:23.220actually makes me realize more and more how much I don't need to sell things you know and
00:19:29.940you know this also takes me back to a lot of things like why we should be living in small
00:19:35.840communities and so forth because you develop relationships with people that then they can
00:19:40.440come to you and ask for guidance and maybe you can work trade systems and so forth out
00:19:45.100I'm still trying to figure all of that out but for me I fundamentally want to assist people and
00:19:52.780help people as if it was a spiritual practice and there isn't much I can I can't turn anybody away
00:20:01.020is what I'm saying with all of my work regardless of your socioeconomic status if anybody needs
00:20:08.180my help I'm there to offer it and I will always be like that because that's how I've been born
00:20:14.700and bred by my family you know it's not transactional and moving away from transactional
00:20:21.400sexual relations is also really important in finding our authentic expression in that space.
00:21:21.400I want to stay on this thread of commodification just a bit longer because it's reminding me of
00:21:40.720a previous conversation I had with Bronte Velez who guided us to think about extending
00:21:46.120our understanding of pleasure into the realm of accountability. Because I think there has somewhat
00:21:52.540or been somewhat of a lotus eating phenomenon where we actively deny the reality that so much
00:21:59.300of our pleasure or what we think of as pleasure is derived at the expense of earth. And just to
00:22:06.960speak really plainly, I mean, look at how much or how many of us enter into sexual exploration
00:22:13.760using toys that are literally derived from fossil fuels. And I think at first blush,
00:22:20.100that statement, you know, could sort of trigger eye rolling. But as someone who is acutely aware
00:22:25.720of the tremendous amount of waste we're generating, I wonder if I can ask you,
00:22:31.780how do we need to query our connection to our bodies? And what does pleasure and sexuality
00:22:38.620that is accountable to earth look like to you because you know dildos in a landfill isn't it0.94
00:22:45.300yeah this is an interesting space to go into the sex toys um also how it makes people feel0.99
00:22:56.600as well you know there are many people that that feel really comfortable in that space using sex
00:23:03.200toys and having that as a matter like a like a material representation of the way that they're
00:23:10.320feeling but I guess I've never been so into sex toys um I never really enjoyed them and I never
00:23:20.340really felt that I needed them for any of my sexual relating in fact the more that I I kind of
00:23:27.160spent time interlacing my spirituality with my sexual practice the more I understood the deep
00:23:33.580intelligence of my body and the deep intensity of energy when it is human to human contact and
00:23:43.100what I would often find is that plastic or even crystal which I just want to point out you know
00:23:49.600a lot of those crystal dildos their mind we're still looking at mining in that space and it would
00:23:56.560cut something from me with my relationship or with my relating in that moment with that person
00:24:04.260because it's like putting a piece of plastic in between two electrical lines the electricity is
00:24:11.980halted that's my own personal experience of it so I've never really moved towards them so much
00:24:18.960in fact I think most of the time I've moved towards them it's just been novelty with a
00:24:24.480partner um what can we buy sort of thing and really falling back into the consumerist mindset
00:24:30.000but when we start to understand the incredible power of not only our mind and body and stepping0.99
00:24:39.060into these places of having energetic sex and maybe that looks like having an energetic dick0.83
00:24:45.100even if you're in the body of a woman or so forth we can reach cathartic moments here and
00:24:52.820And really understanding the energy that extends beyond the body also, you know, that there's a good half a meter, I would say, depending on how much you're focusing your attention on replenishing that energy that you can connect with people without even touching them.
00:25:15.720I think we've forgotten a lot about subtle nuances and subtle ways of being in this world, so much so that we think that we have to have all of this like extremity, you know, like intensity.
00:25:32.700But sometimes the most beautiful moments shared are ones that are so soft and feel like barely even being touched for me anyway.
00:25:41.640I definitely don't look to sex toys as being a way to connect with the person that I want to share with.
00:25:52.900I, yeah, I, in fact, you know, like I said, find it more of a disconnect for me because regardless of who is in the space of using it, there is an element that you can't feel when you are using something that's plastic or even crystal.
00:26:11.640And I think we have to come back to this space and that deep knowing and belief system that
00:26:17.880in this constant extraction that we're doing with the planet for our own pleasure,
00:26:24.080it's so selfish. It's so misguided and that there are so many other ways that we can experience
00:26:33.660pleasure, not at the expense of another person or animal or our natural environment. And I think
00:26:41.400that's something that it's going to take a long time to settle in people's bones in it and it is
00:26:49.360a big journey to get back to that space to understand how much this world holds us and
00:26:56.100how much we take from it yeah the point around softness is something I'm personally really
00:27:03.540working with this practice of being soft and nuanced even with myself and gazing and extremely
00:27:13.900soft touch and feeling the energy of just a tickle and I think for so many of us
00:27:23.120we are feeling the intensity of what's happening and we're also feeling desensitized by it and so
00:27:31.260it makes sense that that numbness, desensitization, and overwhelm would bleed over into our sexuality
00:27:42.020and to the way we relate to our bodies and we relate to others. And it's a really interesting
00:27:48.880question, an inquiry to sit in with someone else. I really appreciate being able to talk about this
00:27:57.380Because I know it's something that, you know, many of us feel shy maybe to go there.
00:28:06.000And I think, too, there's been so much judgment around sexuality and just the whole puritanical shame around it that it can make it challenging just to be like, can we analyze this for a minute and realize we're all in it together?
00:29:37.020But yeah, this conversation, it also brings up another topic you write about, which is
00:29:44.100truth-telling and authenticity and transparency amidst a paradigm of fake identities and a
00:29:51.000culture of lies, be it in our media or our own curated identities. And I think it's incredibly
00:29:58.920difficult, if not impossible, to find liberation when we're constantly lying to each other,
00:30:05.700lying to ourselves and to earth. And one thing that comes to mind is that we are really telling
00:30:13.520ourselves a lie when we suggest that misogyny isn't alive and well in almost all that we do
00:30:19.780and I think about so many spaces where women and femmes and gender non-conforming and trans folks
00:30:27.180are perceived to have power and agency when the reality is we're all still required to portray
00:30:34.140ourselves in a very specific way if we want to be taken seriously and truthfully I really see this
00:30:41.780in a lot of progressive spaces where we're constantly policing each other in terms of
00:30:47.120what you need to look like to be considered radical, to be considered powerful, or to be
00:30:52.460considered nurturing. So can you talk about why you think it is that we are still quick to police
00:30:59.680one another in terms of our identities? You know, if we look at the root cause of why there is so
00:31:07.340much inauthenticity around us is is really got to do with the culture in which we're brought up in
00:31:13.540and for me if you look at this americanization you know australia is very americanized in our
00:31:20.960culture but our culture is essentially pop culture you know when you look at other countries around
00:31:26.840the world they have culture embedded in thousands and thousands of years of being and living and
00:31:33.000existing on the planet and we have created this god-like mentality for celebrityism actors and
00:31:42.560pop stars and this is essentially a inauthentic industry that is teaching our young people how
00:31:51.500to be in the world not only that it is seen as for many people in the mainstream the pinnacle
00:31:57.600of success to reach that place of fame and I do think and I talk about this quite a lot with my
00:32:04.280mentor that this over policing this idea that we have to attack each other is coming from a deep
00:32:12.280desire and need to be heard and seen in a world where we can be drowning in amongst the crowds
00:32:21.140Again, it's kind of, you know, for me, I see the solution is in returning to smaller communities and returning to places where you may know everybody in that community.
00:32:35.240for me when I moved back to living on in a small little coastal town and I started to really
00:32:42.760spend a lot of time working in my community and doing everything I could I felt this sense of
00:32:50.280what I imagine it is to be famous almost you know you go to the farmer's market and you
00:32:55.840saying hello to all these people and they know you and they're your friends and they're your
00:32:59.340community and what we've done with the industrial revolution and the kind of dismantling of the
00:33:06.140village is that we've lost that and that is our our one sense of again back to belonging and
00:33:14.660connection our two truths that we need to thrive on this planet from have been fractured when we
00:33:21.500move into these bigger cities when we're starving to be seen when we're starving to be different
00:33:27.860because we want to be seen and so for me I think a big antidote is is dismantling massive communities
00:33:35.420and working smaller scale to that I think also it's um looking at you know the the belief system
00:33:43.920once again that runs through us that is the need to to be the person in charge to be the
00:33:50.020teacher and we see it a lot nowadays with I think the influx of information on social media
00:33:57.580especially, but suddenly everybody is, you know, a teacher and it doesn't matter if you're 15 or
00:34:04.100you're 50. I always look at that as so tricky to digest because for me in my culture anyway,
00:34:13.640you have to go through a lived experience. You know, in my family, you don't become a teacher
00:34:19.680or an elder until you're beyond 50 and I think it's important when we're in these spaces of
00:34:27.940trying to craft out our identity and our voices is how much of it is our truth and how much of
00:34:34.620it is the echoing trends of pop culture and how can we try to find what is our authentic expression
00:34:42.200and also silence ourselves enough to allow our elders to be able to take up space as well.
00:34:50.680I always fundamentally go to the women in my life who are older than 60 to ask them
00:34:57.520if I'm doing it right, if this is what I should be sharing. And I think that's a good reminder
00:35:04.660for us that it's important to ask those who've come before us. It's also really important to
00:35:09.540acknowledge those that have come before us because you know in in 2021 this current paradigm there's
00:35:16.460no new ideas everything has been taught and done and we are walking behind the people that have
00:35:24.760done that before us and to acknowledge that is really powerful because it just acknowledges we're
00:35:29.660a step in a lineage but we are not the the ultimate creator of that lineage if that makes sense
00:35:36.220Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. That's a really important point. And I've heard you speak about the reality that the feminist movement, as it unfurled in Western societies, particularly in the US, is actually really detrimental to the work we are trying to do now, because it shifted women away from the care economy, away from the community and away from family in the name of equality.
00:36:04.580Before we talk about the returning, can you preface why women need to sort of examine
00:36:09.300what has transpired in the name of equality, and if these so-called strides are compatible
00:36:14.360as we prepare for moments of collapse?
00:36:17.720Yeah, this one is an interesting space to maneuver from.
00:36:22.520You know, my whole life I've felt like I've been a fierce feminist, and that definition
00:36:27.860has changed as I've gotten older, for sure.
00:36:30.600But I definitely started to realize through deep investigation, not only with my spiritual practice in my 20s, but also just the feminist movements, how it was underpinned by the fact that women had to rise to meet male standards.
00:36:49.020And for me, that is so lacking that we couldn't be seen as our most powerful selves for what we contributed to our community as the healers, as the mothers, as the bearers of life and creation, that that has somehow in our mainstream culture fallen to be the lesser.
00:37:12.000One thing that I'm constantly striving to do is to change the belief system that motherhood and mothers is actually one of the most significantly important roles that we need in our community and that those people need to be lifted up and told how important they are.
00:37:33.660Because in this current space, a CEO of a bank is seen to have much more credibility and status than a mother of three.
00:37:44.340I think the feminist movement, as much as they have done so much good for us as women in terms of our ability to make choices and think freely and be in a place of strong embodiment,
00:37:58.380And it has also told us that we are only successful unless we put those pants on and get into that office.
00:38:05.100And, you know, I think breast milk formula actually came out of a lot of mothers returning to the workplace and then not being a space for them to breastfeed.0.94
00:38:19.340And I'm not saying we don't need women in the workplace, but I'm saying if women are mothers, we need more creches in the business spaces.
00:38:26.900We need more businesses to bend so that we can rear and raise good, healthy children with strong mothers who are able to do what is biologically beneficial for that child.0.88
00:38:41.140And that's where I struggle sometimes in the space because for me, you know, I look at so many of my family members and, you know, the mother is a lot of the time the predominant carer, but in that is also responsible for, you know, the health of the whole family.
00:39:02.680and she is the the alchemist you know it's not just preparing dinner and lunch and breakfast
00:39:09.940it's about preparing medicine and i i feel like we've lost that somehow along the way that our
00:39:17.620role um our crucial role as women and and stepping into also motherhood if we do choose that
00:39:24.200is to really look at the health of of our children and how we're growing them up and0.52
00:39:30.840and how we can actually make so much change in one generation if a collective of women all
00:39:37.960chose to do things a little bit differently. I like what you were saying about making
00:39:44.880medicine and yeah I just got a really beautiful visual as you were speaking and now I want to
00:39:54.960talk about the returning, and this is an anti-capital event, and I'm intrigued by what
00:40:01.980that practically looks like. But first, what is the returning, and how does it seek to address
00:40:07.920the reality that the wellness, self-care, and embodiment spaces have historically been very
00:40:14.320white yeah the returning burst out of my need to see more indigenous and diverse voices stepping
00:40:27.740into spiritual and wellness spaces so it essentially is a hundred women event run over
00:40:35.560two days um there's 15 workshops two panels and all organic local produce served throughout the
00:40:45.020day both lunch and dinner plus snacks the event is a little bit different in that we only actually
00:40:52.300sell 35 tickets um and the other 65 to 70 are given away to scholarship holders um indigenous
00:41:02.480women, refugees, single mothers, and women with disabilities. Also, we have exchange tickets for
00:41:09.800women who want to be a part of creating this space. And for me, it was about creating a space1.00
00:41:17.080where everybody is welcome, where everybody can reconnect to nature, where everybody can learn
00:41:24.640the skills that have for thousands of years been freely shared amongst women in order to make
00:41:31.060communities healthier for me this is my one way to give back to my community and to women to
00:41:38.840show a different a different structure and one that's a little bit more embedded in the gifting
00:41:45.060economy and and for us as a community to see how that ripples out how we can stand in for me my
00:41:55.280privilege i can stand in my fair skin indigeneity and the privilege i have to run this event to put0.58
00:42:02.420it on for other women who are less privileged than me it it's about um giving up a bit of of my own
00:42:10.140power and and also kind of trying to get other people to look at giving up a little bit of their0.99
00:42:16.700own power to make space and way for women to step into these pretty white dominated structures and1.00
00:42:25.860systems and health and wellness and spirituality for me are the pinnacle of a good life and women0.99
00:42:34.820are also the backbone of society I believe that to be so true so if we can continue to come together
00:42:41.620and share knowledge freely with each other
00:43:08.440to create things just for capital anymore.
00:43:11.620we are really running low on resources and we have so much knowledge to share we have so much
00:43:19.760to share I I just want to reinstate to my community and the women that attend this event
00:43:27.100sharing and how powerful sharing can be and it really it is it's indigenous ways of being it is
00:43:35.180removing this western mindset of hoarding and scarcity to see that when we share and when we
00:43:43.280are there as a collective how much we can do and it's been such a a big growing um time for me to
00:43:53.320put this event on I've done seven now and I can hope to continue it for the rest of my life
00:44:02.640yeah the way it works is a really the most circular gathering I could imagine because0.99
00:44:11.060the 35 tickets that we do sell enable all 100 women to eat and be and live on the land and1.00
00:44:21.160you know I'm also very fortunate to do it at a location that's completely off-grid so we just0.86
00:44:27.880had like our carbon emission um calculation done and uh i think um 20 plants over the full two-day
00:44:36.340event need to be planted to bring us back to a equilibrium of not creating any emissions which
00:44:42.600is also really powerful and a big part of my work is also trying to create events or gatherings that
00:44:48.960are um not taking and extracting you know we have gathered on this land for thousands and thousands
00:44:56.200of years and given back to it in those gatherings and I think it's a time to remember that and
00:45:03.020remember that we can come together without it having to be at the expense of each other in the0.86
00:45:08.600earth yeah I'm with you there well I'd like to expand our conversation on whiteness identity0.61
00:45:19.060and belonging a bit in the United States historically at least those who were physically
00:45:24.960in closer proximity to whiteness regardless of ancestry often took the opportunity to distance
00:45:31.440themselves from their ancestry in the name of social mobility. But now I think we're also0.72
00:45:37.760witnessing the desire of folks to actually try and distance themselves from their whiteness
00:45:42.400because of shame. And comparatively, you talk about how the Australian government
00:45:47.840desperately attempted to breed out black skin so as someone with mixed ancestry the act of
00:45:55.840acknowledging your indigenous relations is pivotal can you share about what proximity to whiteness
00:46:02.060means in Australia and how that molds your views on embodiment for those who have inherited the
00:46:08.640legacy of being as some describe colonized and colonizer which is something that I think more
00:46:15.020and more people are going to have to navigate through. I mean, my whole life, this has been
00:46:21.280such a big topic for me, being a fair-skinned Indigenous woman, but I grew up with a mother who
00:46:31.180was fiercely passionate about owning her indigeneity because of the implications that
00:46:39.520had occurred to my grandfather because of his black skin you know there was um a rebellious
00:46:47.780child in my mother for sure that went against the grain even when her family persuaded and told her
00:46:56.540that they shouldn't talk about their aboriginality you have to also remember in the context of of
00:47:02.820our country, it wasn't until 1967 that Indigenous people were even seen as human beings in their
00:47:11.680own country. Before that, we were considered flora and fauna. This current stage with 3%
00:47:19.260of the population and in the many different policies that the European government, which0.94
00:47:26.560has colonized this country has put in has all been about disconnecting culture and breeding0.98
00:47:34.140out the Black or assimilating. We're still seeing a lot of these policies today and the way that0.60
00:47:40.020our government is trying to kind of make Aboriginal people invisible. And I think that
00:47:48.560runs deep through every Indigenous person that has Indigenous blood and lineage is that we must
00:47:56.500identify because we're fighting for our lineage we're fighting for our ancestors we're fighting
00:48:02.920for our family who were unable to talk out loud about their culture and if we stop claiming our
00:48:13.080identity then they've won the policies have done what they are meant to do they have successfully
00:48:20.360removed us from our truth and I grew up with a mother who painted uh you know landscapes and
00:48:29.280indigenous artwork all all over my house her studio was our lounge room and I was just always0.96
00:48:37.300brought up knowing I was aboriginal but it wasn't until I started kind of stepping out into the
00:48:43.140world and claiming that that I was rebutted with oh you don't look aboriginal or how aboriginal
00:48:49.800are you and I think sometimes we can forget how offensive these questionings of people identity
00:48:56.620are you know you wouldn't walk up to somebody who is queer and say like oh you don't look queer
00:49:02.880or how queer are you you know and and we just take that that current moment and don't look at0.92
00:49:10.320the context of bigger picture which I think is slowly creeping into our society especially with
00:49:17.380things like ancestral trauma and epigenetics epigenetics but um yeah it's a confronting place
00:49:25.540to be in because I also recognize my white privilege being a fair-skinned woman but I can
00:49:30.560stand in my family and most of my cousins are you know very much black identifying and and looking0.73
00:49:39.680and so you know how do we create this kind of like separation of black and white0.55
00:49:45.560it's just the continual divide you know that we're trying to I feel like society is like
00:49:53.880permanent permeating this continual divide you know and I think for me a good way to look at
00:50:01.980white guilt or even to assist people who are dealing with those spaces is recognizing what
00:50:08.560is your ancestral story and where was it in your line that you got displaced from living close to
00:50:16.900the land because we can continue the black and white polarities but until we start to actually
00:50:21.860understand that we've all been colonized and some have been colonized you know earlier than others
00:50:29.060until then how can we re-return to a place where we feel like we belong to this earth so a big part
00:50:38.540of also the returning is is is really encouraging women to refine their story through their
00:50:45.240ancestry refinding that person deep deep in their line who may have been taken away from
00:50:52.380perhaps her herbalism practices perhaps her you know like um potion practices there is somebody
00:51:00.620in our line and i like to remind all women that somewhere we've had a witch you know witches are
00:51:07.440a global unifying identity that every culture around the world has encompassed in one time
00:51:16.740or another we are from this earth all of us
00:51:37.440Vengo aquà de la montaña, muy debajo de la montaña.
00:51:46.440Vengo aquà de la montaña, muy debajo de la montaña.
00:51:55.700La montaña rebanada que me alimenta, la sabia nena morena panadera.
00:52:04.240Están ahà los muchachitos nerviositos. Están ahà los nuestros metidos, intiltraditos.
00:52:14.120in the spheres of wellness and ceremony and festival culture so much of what makes up these
00:52:31.480spaces and what binds people together has been birthed out of extraction but it's an extraction
00:52:38.280that takes place under the guise of appreciation and knowledge. But if we say we care about earth
00:52:46.040and we care about community, then I think it's our responsibility as well to really explore the
00:52:51.740legacy and impacts. So I'd like us to sort of explore and challenge this notion that wisdom
00:52:58.340can be extracted from so-called other places without ramifications. How does this legacy
00:53:05.280continue and how can we make reparations for the long lasting effects of spiritual tourism
00:53:11.260as well as any reflections you might have on this or how localization and
00:53:16.460learning locally without appropriation can fit into this conversation
00:53:20.840yeah i mean again um this ties back into what i was saying about finding out your own story
00:53:29.920and really diving deep into your ancestry to understand what in your lineage you want to
00:53:37.680continue and pass forward and I think we see this a lot in especially the spiritual communities
00:53:45.060is a real it's just a real disregard for those who have the blood connection to the teachings
00:53:56.760and those that have merely done a course or training in this space.
00:54:02.160I think in order for us to move forward, we have to start recognizing what our own story is in this place
00:54:10.580and teach from our own lineage and our own stories, because any other thing is just colonization, again, continually.
00:54:20.080You know, I see this more and more, not just in the festival ceremony space, but even on Instagram, it's like you can get all of this information so freely given to you without any form of initiation.
00:54:35.100And suddenly you believe yourself to be the teacher.
00:54:38.960And this is very dangerous, you know, like with reference again to what I was saying about elders is that it takes time.
00:54:47.380It takes time and life to be embodied in teachings to share with other people.
00:54:53.480And we live in this very fast paced society that sees, you know, quickness as a level of success.
00:55:01.960And so therefore, you know, if you're trained in something, you did it for one month, right, go out and teach it.
00:55:07.760We've forgotten the full embodiment of what that means to walk through the world with that living inside of us.
00:55:15.060how can we walk through the world living like I studied tantra for seven years it's not
00:55:20.480my modality but I studied it because I was trying to find my way back to my cultural understanding
00:55:29.380I also spent time in Central America studying my culture because again I was trying to piece
00:55:35.520together these parts of indigeneity that ran all around the world which was basically the same
00:55:41.520theme which was living close to nature connecting with oneself and our other animals that occupy
00:55:48.860the planet so yeah I just I feel like there is so much more awareness than there's ever been
00:55:56.380right now about stepping on the toes of other people and their teachings but in saying that
00:56:03.040it's not to say that we can't be our own individual spiritual teacher you know if you
00:56:10.600are learning strong meditations and vedic meditations or um you're learning yogic practices
00:56:17.740and you want to do them in your life then of course do them wake up do your practice meditate
00:56:23.000i think it's once we step into the teacher role and then also the commercialization of these
00:56:29.820things that there starts to be an imbalance especially in a world that sees money linked0.60
00:56:35.200power and the continual oppression of black, brown voices in this space, I think that's where it can
00:56:42.820start to be dangerous. And we need to return to ourselves first. We need to return to our strong1.00
00:56:49.760spiritual practices first and encourage other people for sure to do it. But perhaps we can
00:56:55.820start to move from a place that doesn't look like gaining capital over these traditions that for
00:57:02.780so many thousands of years, never had a monetary exchange involved in them.
00:57:09.940When I think about what you're speaking to this non-capital way of relating,
00:57:16.900I know it can be hard for so many of us to imagine what a world could look like
00:57:21.160beyond capitalism. But if we don't practice it, we're not going to get there. And so I think the
00:57:27.040practice that you're in is important, not only for your own community, but also to inspire others
00:57:32.980that people are doing it. And the more we do it, probably more space in our hearts and our mind
00:57:41.260will open to how we can continue down that path. So I really appreciate hearing your experience.
00:57:49.000And you've used the term big picture activism. And something that really struck me in preparing
00:57:55.500for our conversation is the way you talk about big system change and how settlers can support this
00:58:01.520in terms of addressing contemporary colonization of indigenous people through dominant understandings
00:58:07.660of success. Now, similarly to Australia, here in the States, settlers think that celebrating
00:58:14.260the BIPOC community in positions of power, you know, any sort of power is equivalent to the
00:58:20.420writings of historical wrongs. But you push us to interrogate this further. So can you speak to
00:58:27.880this facet of big picture activism? Yeah, big picture activism. I'd firstly like to acknowledge
00:58:36.480my mentor, Helen and Albert Hodge, who has been in the localization movement and the forefront of
00:58:43.400it for a very long time and introduced me to this idea that a lot of the times we're all fighting
00:58:53.700these little fights but the little fights are all got to do with something that's much larger and if
00:59:01.700we just zoom out a little bit we understand big picture activism as pulling down a structure
00:59:08.980that has created oppression and by that I mean the colonial capitalist structure which I try to
00:59:17.820explain to people is like a pyramid scheme if you can see that everything is going up and being
00:59:22.680funneled from the masses down the bottom all the way up to the top rather than implementing another
00:59:28.680kind of system or structure which may look like a circular reciprocity something that is working
00:59:35.840in conjunction where you're giving and taking now the problem I'm finding especially in today's
00:59:44.420day and age is that we're just replacing one puppet with the next and somehow thinking that
00:59:51.100that is going to be the solution and you know I'm talking about politics mostly in this space
00:59:57.020because the politicians are just oiling the the big machine like system that controls all of us1.00
01:00:06.260so I don't see us having change by having an indigenous prime minister who's operating under0.95
01:00:15.360the crown the colonial crown which created and destroyed this land I don't see that as being0.99
01:00:23.360able to make change what I see being able to make change is to pull down the entire structure
01:00:29.220and this system which is embedded in exploitation and extraction and if we can look at anything that
01:00:38.220it has done in the last you know for us 200 so years is destroy and desertify our beautiful
01:00:46.820continent that is Australia so I don't understand how just jumping into this structure and trying
01:00:55.060to make change is going to occur we need to pull it all down I am so fiercely passionate about
01:01:03.680the big picture activism because I think we we get lost in the little fights and you know we can
01:01:12.140forget sometimes that we're all trying to fight for the same thing which is essentially freedom
01:01:17.860the essential need to be free in this world which is our birthright really our birthright to be able
01:01:26.620to be close to nature to understand intrinsically what it means to be on this planet to belong to
01:01:33.720connect and all of this this machine like uh intense technological future that we're moving
01:01:43.480into is only going to perpetuate more harm i can see that happening so close like it's like uh the
01:01:54.200veil is lifted and i'm like oh right okay it doesn't make sense to move into a technological
01:01:59.400future where most of our sustainable renewable energy is also being mined if we're still using
01:02:06.080the same for-profit structures and we're trying to be green it's just greenwashing it's just
01:02:13.520again feeding something that is ultimately destroying our right as human beings to be in
01:02:21.680our most healthiest version of ourselves on our healthiest planet that we can be
01:02:27.500yeah thank you for bringing up the mining of renewables that um even though i know so many
01:02:36.020of us just want that solution we want the quick fix or just a fix in general uh but
01:02:44.580that's not it and it never will be and so yeah we really need to um truth tell about that to
01:02:53.300each other so we don't put so much energy and hope and creativity into the technological future
01:03:01.540but instead one that is grounded in realness um and it's all it's all there you know like our
01:03:11.340history it's all there like we have the ways to be able to live symbiotically with nature we have
01:03:18.580the answers you know they they are the answers that will actually make the majority of people
01:03:24.760come from a place of being able to benefit but that's not the system that we're under right now
01:03:30.360and until people like lift that veil and understanding that we're all working in this
01:03:36.200system that is not beneficial for us it's most certainly not beneficial for the next generation
01:03:40.900is beneficial for a small amount of people who is so fiercely disconnected from what is their truth
01:03:46.200you know as they continue to work for this like again I say it's a machine-like structure because
01:03:52.300I do believe that human beings have the utmost wanting to to be the best that they can but our
01:04:00.720belief system is wrong you know our belief system is embedded in an economic structure rather than
01:04:08.560an environmental one and and that's something that we need to look at how do we shift that
01:04:13.780core fundamental belief system so that we're fighting for the thing that really needs us
01:04:18.940to be fighting for, which is the earth. Yes. Yes, absolutely. I wanted to read this quote of yours
01:04:27.900and it reads, I acknowledge the lower system that has been in place on this country for thousands
01:04:34.780of years, way before a law system that breeds a society to live in fear. I acknowledge the
01:04:41.940original custodians, our wisdom speakers, the water keepers, the land protectors, and the
01:04:48.020relations for our other more than human beings. I recognize that sovereignty was never ceded.
01:04:55.380The land was never given. I won't let my power go, but I will start a journey of forgiving.
01:05:01.560My power is deep inside of me, not embedded in currency. My power is our power. In my language,
01:05:08.440the bark of the tree means the same as the skin on my body, end quote.
01:05:15.480And as we come to a close, I'd like to discuss lore and law and just how you see these as
01:05:23.200incompatible, but more so how you understand lore's role in fostering a relinquishment of power
01:05:31.120and getting us out of competition with our relations.
01:05:34.340yeah this is so fundamental to the way that I walk through the world and um really embodying
01:05:45.580my culture the best that I can and my cultural practices and learning language has been one of
01:05:52.240the most powerful things for me to actually understand because I think language speaks
01:05:58.900volumes to the culture and when I've been learning Bundjalung and and understanding what all the
01:06:05.800words mean everything is first of all connected for we as human beings have the same names and
01:06:13.960traditionally in my culture you would be given a name of an animal or a name of a rock or a mountain
01:06:21.460that represented you or your collective and this is to understand that there is no separation even
01:06:30.620when you look at indigenous dance it is an embodied form of empathy where we get to embody the kangaroo
01:06:36.300where we get to move into the eagle and we get to really on a cellular level understand how they
01:06:42.020walk through the world the law and the lore of this country are so fundamentally opposed
01:06:49.740One is about extracting and creating a belief system that states we are removed from nature, we are somehow above nature. And the law system and cultural system of my ancestry is that we are so interconnected and intertwined, that if one thing in our environment is suffering, we all are suffering.
01:07:17.000You know, we've been sold this lie through capitalism, this individualistic lie that states that we're somehow single cell organisms that don't have an impact on each other, which is just so incorrect.
01:07:31.260You know, the interconnectedness of this entire planet is so vast and they talk a lot of, you can see the butterfly effect, you know, something happens on the other side of the world can affect the other side of the world.
01:07:44.280This is constantly a state in which we can bring balance back to the earth by creating balance within ourselves, by being able to understand that kinship goes beyond humans.
01:08:01.800The kinship is to that tree that you spent every day with for four years and meditated under and provided you with berries and allowed you shelter.
01:08:12.180You know, the difference is that we no longer live in a natural world where nature is always like our biggest protector.
01:08:24.180You know, we've created these structures and we've moved away from it, even though all of these structures are embedded in natural materials in some form in their original place.
01:08:33.800But we've dislocated ourselves from this.
01:08:36.980and I think until you start to re-establish a relationship with nature you can't fully
01:08:44.260understand it and so I beg people to go out and embody the experience of what it is like to
01:08:51.920build a relationship with a rock you know a rock that may have been on this planet for
01:08:57.700thousands and thousands and thousands of years you know and carries a spirit as well
01:09:02.780And to not see the natural world as something that is there for us to use, but to see it as our actual family, that it has a living spirit inside of it, that we can move from a place of magic and discover great magic when we fall into subtle relationship with nature.
01:09:29.020And for me, it's been a big journey of trying to slow down, unpack my very fast moving mind to sit in a space with one thing, maybe for an hour, maybe for two, you know, that could be a plant, that could be a flower, that could be an animal, you know, but to really start to reestablish a strong connection.
01:09:57.800And I think this is why localization is so important because we've moved into this global community where people come and go so quickly that they use the landscape as if it is like a backdrop to their life and they don't understand the real importance that it plays with us.
01:10:17.060and when we localize we spend time in the same place we become familiar we make memories with
01:10:23.320the rivers you know the river it it it becomes more than just a place to swim it becomes a place
01:10:30.400of great understanding of our life and that's that is how the law system worked for for my people
01:10:38.900was that, you know, these things are the stories, they hold the stories, the Dreamtime stories are
01:10:47.580part of who we are, and they're embedded in our natural landscape. And they are our ways of telling
01:10:54.640the next generation how to grow up with a thriving, abundant life. You know, it's so fundamental that
01:11:04.220we continue the oral communication and understanding of storytelling embedded in a
01:11:11.320perspective that's seen nature as our deep deep kin that was beautiful thank you ella for
01:11:20.940closing us out that way really appreciate your time and all of the places that we went to in
01:11:28.500this conversation thank you and thank you for all you do i love your work and yeah i really
01:11:37.180appreciate being on the podcast today thank you for listening to for the wild podcast the music
01:11:51.160you heard today was by harrison foster lady moon and the eclipse and sukulima for the wild is
01:11:57.340created by Ayanna Young, Erica Ekrem, Francesca Glaspell, and Melanie Younger.