00:00:00.000Hello and welcome to For the Wild podcast. I'm Ayana Young. Today I'm speaking with
00:00:07.540Juliana Furci. And the time of decomposition cannot be measured easily in chronological
00:00:15.240time. It does take us back to the divine time or the time of each process. Juliana Furci
00:00:23.360is foundress and the CEO of the Fungi Foundation, the first international non-profit dedicated to
00:00:30.780fungi and founded in Chile. She is a Harvard University associate, co-chair of the IUCN
00:00:37.320Fungal Conservation Committee, and curator of the FFCL Fungarium. Juliana is the author of both
00:00:44.400volumes of The Field Guide to Chilean Fungi and co-author of several titles including the first
00:00:50.980state of the world's fungi by royal botanic gardens q and the book fantastic fungi she's
00:00:57.680also the first female mycologist in chile for more information about her work visit www.ffungi.org
00:01:06.600well juliana i am so darn excited to be having this conversation with you
00:01:15.400So just your knowledge and your spirit and your energy that you bring to this work into this world is so beautiful.
00:01:23.060And just thank you so much for being with us today.
00:01:27.020Thank you very much for this invitation.
00:01:31.000I'd like to begin our conversation by asking you about your research on the ancestral uses of fungi.
00:01:37.320You know, so often mushrooms and fungi are pitched as being at the forefront of innovation, whether they're being used to create vegan leather or pharmaceuticals or being incorporated into various biotechnology products.
00:01:53.400But I've heard you allude to the fact that this fixation on innovation obscures our ancestral relationship to fungi.
00:02:01.640So can you speak to the importance of grounding in our ancestral history amidst this period
00:02:07.940of intense commodification of fungi and mushrooms?
00:02:12.460Well, that's such an interesting question, and thank you for the opportunity to talk
00:02:17.340We have, as humanity, culturally co-evolved with fungi, and wherever we look on Earth
00:02:26.180And every civilization that we look into, we see uses of fungi being apparent, either for feeding, healing, clothing, and so much more, weaving, dyeing.
00:02:43.400And through the Fungi Foundation program called Elders, what we're doing is that we are documenting every known use of fungi that has been either published in peer-reviewed science, in general publications, or that have been communicated in oral history.
00:03:06.880So the ancestral and traditional uses of fungi around the world have been a focus of ours for a very long time.
00:03:17.460The nature-based solutions that fungi hold are overwhelming, and they're not new discoveries.
00:03:25.740They are ancient uses in this cultural co-evolution that we must go back to.
00:03:32.600Mm hmm. Yeah, I'm totally with you there. And thinking about this ancestral relationship, I'm curious to venture into conversation around the right to medicine and how capitalism has corrupted this right.
00:03:50.180And this conversation is so complex because on the one hand, we know that medicinal mushrooms are helpful in treating mental illness and are drawn upon as allies for immune, digestion, detox, and stress support.
00:04:05.640But on the other hand, many in the radical mycology community have pointed out that this medicine has at once become both a tourist attraction and a targeted resource for large-scale companies throughout the world via the branding of medicinal mushrooms as a top food trend.
00:04:24.600So I'd like to ask you what you think it could look like to approach our right to medicine and well-being via mushrooms without giving into irresponsible capitalism consumption.
00:04:37.780so almost everybody has access to medicinal mushrooms and medicinal fungi in their neighborhoods
00:04:48.960on our trees wherever you are in the world on grasslands in mountains in coastal areas
00:04:56.920there are fungi that have the ability to heal you in some manner we do not need to be
00:05:06.340buying antibiotics, for example, in a pharmacy and from a pharmaceutical company. We do not need
00:05:16.340to be purchasing sunblock. We do not need to be treating ear infections with compounds we don't
00:05:26.060even know where they originate from. We have, as a species, co-evolved culturally with several
00:05:35.520species of fungi that have the ability to heal us in all of our neighborhoods. So there are
00:05:42.420cosmopolitan species of fungi that can do for you what companies promote only they can do for you.
00:05:50.820And we all have the right to know that the compounds that are being sold to us as unique
00:05:58.400are actually derived from species that are found in nature, you know, in your backyard many times.
00:06:05.520So fungi really do come to show us that we can be self-sufficient from a medicinal point of view to a very large extent through species that we find even on rotting wood.
00:06:20.260There are species of fungi that have culturally co-evolved with humanity to such an extent that the known uses in Africa of certain species are the same known uses in Australasia and are also the same known uses in South America or in North America.
00:06:44.900So there really has been this cultural co-evolution that pharmaceuticals claim to be discoveries of their own.
00:06:55.940And it's an insult and it's unjust to fungi.
00:07:03.000Hugh's State of the World's Plants and Fungi Report announced that in 2019 alone, nearly
00:07:10.2202,000 species of fungi were scientifically named for the first time, which is such a
00:07:17.180small recognition when we think about how it's estimated that the true biodiversity
00:07:21.860of fungi is somewhere around 1 to 6 million species.
00:07:26.020Yet as we find ourselves awakening to fungal diversity, we're also experiencing tremendous ecological loss through logging, monocropping, and forest thinning, all of which puts fungi at risk.
00:07:41.140So can you share with us the status of fungi and the importance of looking for previously unrecognized fungi, not solely for scientific acquisition, but so that these species and the ecosystem they are part of can be protected?
00:07:56.020And this is such a pertinent question. So last week, just as an example of what we're talking about, last week, I finally coincided with a fungus that I had been looking for for 20 years, which is a species called Gastrobolitis valdivianus.
00:08:17.560it's an endangered species and endangered under IUCN criteria in the global fungal red list and
00:08:26.720also in Chilean the Chilean national red list and it's only been collected three times once in 1974
00:08:34.100and twice in 2006 now after searching and searching and searching and going to those
00:08:42.720locations and seeing that that native forest where that fungus was found where it grew had been
00:08:50.340logged in some cases and replaced with pine plantations you know it took me 20 years to
00:08:57.480find it again last week I was walking you know behind a housing development and in a little
00:09:05.740patch of native forest and I coincided with gastrobolitis valvignanos for the first time
00:09:11.800the fourth known collection of the fungus eight meters away from pine and eucalypt plantations
00:09:19.260and while I was collecting that fungus I could hear the machinery of another housing development
00:09:26.520you know just a few meters away so the threat of habitat loss is as real as that this vivid
00:09:37.180account just happening a few days ago. We are losing species by the minute. Habitat loss,
00:09:46.640habitat fragmentation, as well as climate change, nitrogen enrichment, overuse of pesticides and
00:09:55.760fungicides are making us lose species before we even find them in some cases. And these species
00:10:03.220not only hold keys to human health, but for example, in the case of gastrobolitis by Nibianus
00:10:11.340found last week, I could not believe the number of insect larvae that were inside the fungus.
00:10:18.440When I collected the fungus, centipedes came out, you know, there were millipedes,
00:10:25.120larvae of flies, there were ants on the fungus, you know, enough that, you know, I brought some
00:10:32.320home to rear those larvae but what was evident was that the fungus itself was a whole ecosystem
00:10:39.640just fundamental food and brooding grounds for a number of insects and when we lose the fungus
00:10:49.460those insects lose their habitat and in some cases they only grow on these fungi so the real
00:10:59.500question is you know what is a species and what fungi teach us is that an individual doesn't exist
00:11:07.240no species lives alone and disconnected from others we are all interconnected with with other
00:11:16.360organisms from other kingdoms and when we lose one species we're not losing an individual we're
00:11:26.160losing an ecosystem that is so deep and beautiful and a scary you know a little bit yeah not a
00:11:36.960little bit like very very worrisome not that i didn't know that things were connected but
00:11:42.580it's a really important reminder for us and the last i heard the global market for mushrooms was
00:11:50.420estimated to be over 40 billion dollars a year but even separate from this global exchange we've seen
00:11:57.380the growth of mushroom foraging on a smaller scale as well and oftentimes this contributes to over
00:12:04.160harvesting so i wonder if you could speak about the risks of foraging and over harvesting especially
00:12:11.100in context to our previous conversation on ancestral uses of mushrooms ancestrally most
00:12:19.180cultures have associated the harvesting or collection of fungi, plants and animals to a
00:12:29.180sacred activity. It's a sacred activity by which you ask for permission, you thank, you appreciate
00:12:37.480very deliberately. What we're seeing today is a fever to extract the bounty of a harvest
00:12:49.840independent of our needs. Ancestrally, you only take what you are going to use. You only take
00:13:00.380With permission, what you need to feed your family, to heal your family, to clothe your family.
00:13:08.420And the commercialization would be through swapping, we call trueque in Spanish, on a very small scale.
00:13:19.940What is extremely worrisome today is this notion that you need to take before another does,
00:13:28.160And therefore you take everything that you see. You never stop to ask permission. You never dwell on the existence of the species you're taking or that you're taking from. We never stop to say thank you. We don't stop to appreciate.
00:13:48.420And that's driving a very dangerous fever and bounty hunt of a renewable species, renewable being, a reproducing being, and really driving it to the point of not being able to reproduce or survive.
00:14:13.400and this happens you know in different ways it's it's very important to keep in mind that fungi
00:14:22.680are organisms that form their own kingdom or queendom as i like to call them such as plants
00:14:31.960are and animals are also organisms that form their own kingdoms or queendoms and when we talk about
00:14:39.820fungi we're using a name that includes yeasts molds lichens mushrooms conchs and other organisms
00:14:52.060just as when we say animals we're talking about insects mammals amphibians you know invertebrates
00:15:00.780you can you can separate this large kingdom and so or queen when we talk about fungi and over
00:15:08.620harvesting um the first step which is missing from the knowledge of many harvesters is the
00:15:16.780life cycle of the organism that we are looking for and that we are taking from there are some
00:15:23.100species for example chaga that grow on trees and that are you know a whole just one individual per
00:15:31.500tree and if you're taking everything you see you're really not leaving any of that individual
00:15:38.180to reproduce sexually there are other species like turkey tail where um also you by taking
00:15:47.240everything you find on a log um you're really um in in you're stopping that species from reproducing
00:15:55.840or that individual from reproducing sexually and there are other species um of edible fungi
00:16:03.560like for example chanterelles or let's say morels that they're all they're very they're not very
00:16:09.640closely related but you normally um you you're taking these spore producing bodies for food
00:16:18.340but the mycelium below has the ability to reproduce asexually and to produce more
00:16:27.060sexual reproductive organs you know bodies so there's a difference when you're harvesting
00:16:33.960polypores to when you're harvesting a fleshy mushroom as to the impact you're having when
00:16:39.680you take everything you see that's what I want to say taking everything you see is never good
00:16:46.560practice in any area of life less so with mushroom harvesting you have to leave not only for others
00:16:57.040but also for the animals that depend on them also for the plants that depend on them and some for
00:17:04.920them to reproduce sexually as well so really greed is driving over harvesting I would say
00:17:13.420and it's extremely detrimental to the ecosystems that fungi are
00:17:17.420and to anybody who who wants to use them or has to use them
00:18:23.660Mm hmm. Yes, thank you so much for sharing that with us. And I've mentioned this before on the
00:18:31.860podcast, but I used to be a commercial mushroom hunter for a little bit of time. And it was
00:18:38.800really my goodness, how do I say it? It was my, it was like the Pandora's box of falling in love
00:18:44.980with the forest, because I was able to be in the forest all the time. And I was exploring
00:18:50.300different areas and I was really firsthand experiencing old growth forest versus second
00:18:57.060growth versus monocropped forest and what logging was or how logging was impacting not just the
00:19:06.260visual aesthetic of the forest, not just the ecological damage of the forest, but also
00:19:11.940the feeling and the spirit of the forest. And I also saw so many groups of commercial harvesters
00:19:19.360just go in and clean the forest floor of mushrooms like really taking everything they saw and so you
00:19:26.620could just imagine if I was taking most of what I saw although I you know even at that time I
00:19:32.780didn't know much but I knew not to do that but I would come upon places where for instance with
00:19:38.660Matsutakis I could see all the holes of where they were taken and so it was a really big eye
00:19:46.300opener. And I ceased to continue commercial hunting because I started to understand that
00:19:52.860this greed was damaging the forest. And it was really a deep realization for me and a little bit
00:20:01.460sad because I didn't know how to be in right relationship with fungi at the time. But I knew
00:20:08.260that something wasn't right. And so I knew I needed to stop. And I just think about all the
00:20:15.440threats to fungi and how important they are but whether it's over harvesting or logging and and
00:20:22.340one thing I do want to mention too about logging for those who don't know this it's not just that
00:20:28.500the trees are taken and the soil is disrupted from the machinery and the dragging and the road
00:20:35.360construction and then the sun beating down on the soil drying it out of course just the act of
00:20:41.160logging is detrimental. But I think what many people don't know is all the poisons that are
00:20:46.480sprayed on the understory plants, on the trees that are undesirable, on the fungi. It's like
00:20:52.900being in a cornfield. There's a lot of poisons being used. And so I just felt like I wanted to
00:21:01.220speak to that with you. And then it's the replacement with exotic species that bring in
00:21:10.780a whole other communities of organisms that take over, you know, native, that invade into native
00:21:19.360ecosystems as well. I mean, here in Chile, as in other countries of the world, in the US,
00:21:25.980in New Zealand, in Australia, you know, the beautiful Amanita muscaria, you know, the fly
00:21:31.560agaric soma the most you know one of the most important fungi for humanity is a mycorrhizal
00:21:41.420ectomycorrhizal species with pine with birch with chestnut trees but it's from the northern
00:21:50.160hemisphere and when you know logging companies come to the southern hemisphere clear cut our
00:21:58.080old-growth native temperate rainforest, spray the floor with those prisons and then replace it with
00:22:07.540exotic pines that come with their own ectomycorrhizae, such as amanita. What we're seeing
00:22:14.260now is that you can go into native temperate rainforests and find amanita muscaria forming
00:22:21.820symbiosis with native trees now you know it's a beautiful find you know it warms your heart if
00:22:29.080you don't know what you're seeing but when you do know you realize that this invasive mushroom
00:22:35.580you know the fly agaric is taking over the niche of several native mushrooms that should be doing
00:22:42.640the work for the tree and that have been displaced or potentially you know evicted from their
00:22:48.700ecosystems so there there are invasive fungi that come as a consequence of logging and and
00:22:57.140forestry industries oh that's a really good point to bring up and i have thought about
00:23:05.280the invasive species a bit because i see that there are a lot of fungal add-ins to say fertilizers or
00:23:18.020just different products that you can get whether that's for your personal garden or that you can
00:23:24.640that I know that the industry uses in fields or in forest lands and so I wondered about that
00:23:32.320specifically because in some ways I think okay well they're adding these fungal elements and
00:23:37.040potentially those are helping to rebuild soil but if they are not native are they then invasive
00:23:44.540And are they then creating problems down the line that we are not aware of in the moment?
00:23:51.080Well, you know, it's curious and it's such a good, you know, a good query to have, but it's even worse than what some can imagine, because not only are you being sold these exotic fungal additives,
00:24:04.540additives but you're also being sold these um these fungi that will better your soil whilst
00:24:14.520you add them but that have been genetically modified to not reproduce so it actually makes
00:24:21.860you depend on buying the commercial version of a um you know of a non-reproductive uh biological
00:24:31.000product so it you know it gets worse it's like buying a seed that will never germinate really
00:24:39.260wow yeah i oh goodness there's so much in this um because i yeah just thinking about the debate
00:24:53.140between invasive versus native fungi and the implications of certain restoration projects
00:24:58.640even where fungi that are not native to the area are rapidly introduced to forest ecosystems
00:25:03.960and you know i wonder when it is a project for restoration and it's not for commercialized
00:25:14.800monocropping or or cropping of any type are there any times where introducing a species that is not
00:25:24.380native can be helpful. Are there any instances of that? The fungi have this fantastic wisdom
00:25:33.540and it's evolved into the fact that they are very species specific. So many times, as much as we'd
00:25:42.540want a fungus to establish for a micro restoration project, it simply can't because fungi are
00:25:51.420specific to their substrate. So for example, we can find in one area of the world an amazing fungus
00:25:59.600that can grow, that's native to that area, that does a great job cleaning up. And when we want
00:26:07.460to take it to another region to do the same job, it just doesn't establish because its food source
00:26:13.120isn't there so what fungi force us to do with this species specificity is to look for local
00:26:21.500solutions so there is little doubt that the best fungal allies to clean up an area of a given place
00:26:32.280will be in the funga of that place in the fungal diversity of that place and you wouldn't you
00:26:39.160won't really need to look anywhere else because most probably what you find will not establish
00:26:45.020there and do what you think it will so as a as a as a forager you you know that if you're looking
00:26:52.760for matsutake you look for the matsutake habitat if you're looking for morels you look for the
00:27:00.840morel habitat it's not that these species can occur just anywhere they're very specific in
00:27:07.120where they live and the same for restoration if you're you know you need a species that
00:27:13.540is capable of establishing and thriving in the habitat that you want to clean up
00:27:18.720yeah that makes so much sense and if you do want to introduce or if projects are saying that they
00:27:27.820are introducing native species back into the space that's been damaged is there a protocol
00:27:39.540in which to harvest and implement these species back in to the ecosystem like is there a way that
00:27:48.180is is there a way for it to be done in right relationship or are there ways that it's done
00:27:53.640that you don't agree with? So pathogenic fungi exist all over the world, and they are native
00:28:01.620to several systems. Now, the species thrive when there is an imbalance. So if a place has been,
00:28:11.880for example, locked, and the floor is full of branches, leaves, even smaller tree trunks,
00:28:22.800everything that has been left behind you will see certain species become predominant in that
00:28:30.540landscape and it's normally the species that are suprobic they are recycling the decomposing
00:28:37.820plant matter that is left behind after that impact and so that's you know one way to to look at the
00:28:44.860abundance of a species in a place is through the lens of an imbalance when you have contamination
00:28:51.160with chemicals that are killing the plant matter and it's hard for the fungi to establish there
00:29:00.400to do their job of decomposing to enable recomposition sometimes we need to help the
00:29:07.080species establish there we need to put them back into that system so that they can decompose the
00:29:13.040matter. We normally do that with either native species of wood decomposers or known
00:29:23.880quote-unquote aggressive species of fungi that whose mycelium quickly establishes and whose
00:29:33.160mycelium can tolerate the chemicals that are found there. By excellence, one of the most
00:29:39.740powerful mycelial um uh powers is held in the oyster mushroom in pleurotus austriatus
00:29:50.560and you can introduce it to certain areas um and it will establish up to a point where it has
00:30:01.320something to eat because it's wood dwelling and a wood decomposer once that wood has been
00:30:07.160decomposed the fungus will not thrive as much however it will sporulate and it will travel it
00:30:15.780will move around and establish in other areas and could potentially become a pathogen in healthy
00:30:22.280areas close to where you're cleaning up so you know it's a duality that many face um and in order
00:30:32.480to to really overcome that duality and make a decision it's important to have a thorough
00:30:40.100thorough knowledge of the native species that might be able to do that same thing
00:30:45.260that the pleurotus is doing but whose detrimental impact would be less because the ecosystems and
00:30:55.440habitats are used to their presence so it's not an easy answer there's a lot to consider
00:31:01.480Well, thank you so much for considering with me for a bit of time on this very complex topic that I think about all the time with my work in conservation, restoration of forest lands. And it's just something that I, it just always is with me, these questions. So I really appreciate working through them a bit with you.
00:31:25.480I have a very, you know, emblematic case of this same dilemma.
00:31:31.420So Tierra del Fuego is a large island shared politically, modernly shared by Argentina and Chile.
00:31:41.700It's on the southern tip of the continent of the Americas, bridging towards Antarctica.
00:31:47.780And in Tierra del Fuego, there was, there's an ecological genocide going on, thanks to the introduction of beavers.
00:32:01.280Many years ago, a gentleman decided he was going to farm beavers for the pelt industry, so for their skins.
00:32:11.820And when his business didn't go well, he decided to free them.
00:32:15.240What we have today is an invasion that is unprecedented. I mean, it's just heartbreaking to see. These are old growth, sub-Antarctic forests, you know, trees that can live up to 800, 1000 years old, suffering from basically being drowned because of the beaver dams that these animals build.
00:32:41.620And they have no predator here. So nobody caps the beaver population naturally because it's an invasive species.
00:32:53.520Working a few years ago, measuring what was happening with fungi there, so with richness and abundance of species,
00:33:02.820it was apparent that where the beaver dams are, the fungal diversity drops drastically.
00:33:09.560Like it changes from having a hundred species in five square meters to one species in five square meters.
00:33:19.980But the abundance of those species is enormous.
00:33:22.780And because the beavers eat the bark of the trees and they use a lot of that material to build their dams,
00:33:37.780and no fungus was establishing to be able to decompose the tree trunks
00:33:44.660so that that energy would be able to recompose into the system.
00:33:50.500And so we were looking at different fungal species
00:33:52.760that were capable of living on these hard woods that had no bark on them.
00:33:59.860And really the realization was we need to find the native species that can do that.
00:34:06.960there are exotic species that could do it and they could do that today but it means introducing a
00:34:13.220species of fungus whereas you know we need the time to find what native fungus can do this
00:34:21.380in a more ecologically just way so when faced with that duality my choice and my professional
00:34:31.840choice to the people who had were asking me those questions was do not introduce a new species here
00:34:38.540that could then you know just take over niches that other native species hold but rather let's
00:34:46.120take the time we need to find that native species that can establish on these barkless tree trunks
00:34:53.540wow so interesting so much to take in and i think i think it ultimately it takes us back
00:35:02.640and forward and present to how we relate to time the you know the ancient greeks would measure time
00:35:12.300in two ways the kairos and the chronos and the chronos being you know the chronological time
00:35:19.080that we have adopted with seconds minutes you know hours weeks you know years and then kairos
00:35:27.180which is the divine time or the natural time of a process which is different and is not comparable
00:35:33.700to the chronos to the chronological time and you know the time of each process is is is to be
00:35:43.560respected and the time of decomposition cannot be measured easily in chronological time it does
00:35:51.740take us back to the divine time or the time of each process wow that is so beautiful and
00:36:00.120so deep to hear that and that just took me in so many places in my mind so thank you for bringing
00:36:09.100that up because I think that's something that's often overlooked especially since we live in a
00:36:14.700culture that is in so many ways pressured by instant gratification and the need to
00:36:23.740see change and movement and results and solutions in a very quick time frame that doesn't
00:36:32.520actually makes sense most of the time right and this kind of is making me think about that
00:36:39.660alongside others you've pointed out the critical role of the fungi queendom and the role that it
00:36:47.640can play in response to biodiversity loss and climate change and just makes me think of this
00:36:53.700deep time and it reminds me of these ancient ecosystems and how fungal diversity played a
00:37:00.060role in them, really shaping evolutionary history, which is really to say that I'm thinking about
00:37:06.920fungi's relationship with the earth outside of our use of fungi or even our relationship with them.
00:37:14.820So I guess my question is, how can fungi assist with ecological regeneration
00:37:19.000for the sake of the planet and our more than human kin, if left alone, especially?
00:37:24.760well you can't have any regeneration without the fungi it's that simple i mean it's sort of you
00:37:32.560know it's more basal nothing can recompose without fungi that are decomposing energy is not lost
00:37:41.900energy is transformed and the organisms that transform energy are the fungi it's impossible
00:37:49.080to look at regeneration without looking at decomposition and decomposition doesn't exist
00:37:57.460without fungi oh yeah absolutely um i mean it's really very i mean it sounds very simple and what
00:38:07.240i'm going to say is it's very simple um but it really is as simple as that we cannot um heal
00:38:15.140our planet without the fungi no organism in the terrestrial habitat can live without the fungi
00:38:21.420not not one of them plants cannot live outside of water without the fungi that are in or on its roots
00:38:27.980and you know when when life emerged from an aquatic ecosystem onto terrestrial landscapes
00:38:35.780the only reason that that the first life forms established were because of teaming up in a
00:38:42.360symbiosis with fungi so once again what fungi are saying is that an individual doesn't exist
00:38:47.780every time we use the word ecosystem we're talking about fungi every time we talk about
00:38:54.020rewilding we're talking about fungi and you know in to the eyes of a mycologist you know we see a
00:39:01.760tree as a photosynthetic symbiont of a fungus or of many fungi we don't see it the other way around
00:39:07.900It all has to do with your point of view. Some people say, oh, you know, ectomycorrhizal fungi allow plants to live. Well, no, it's that plant that's allowing the fungus to live. It also could be.
00:39:21.300So really here, there is a very fundamental and basal acknowledgement that needs to be made tangible in language, in legislation, in policy in general, that acknowledges that fungi are the firmament of all terrestrial ecosystems, every single one of them.
00:41:50.840to include fungi in its conservation planning and biodiversity plans.
00:42:01.120So because Chile had had such a bad grade in environmental issues,
00:42:09.960we went to the ministry of the environment and presented them with an opportunity to become
00:42:17.140the champions of the inclusion of this kingdom in its legislation and we proved to them that
00:42:26.480and presented and then proved to them that it wasn't expensive to do and that really if we
00:42:33.880were talking about an ecosystemic approach to nature this was the only way to do it and after
00:42:40.900two years of working to get both you know the chamber of deputies and the senate and the
00:42:49.640ministries to understand this issue you know in a very strategic way the law was finally passed
00:42:56.100with the inclusion of fungi in two paragraphs of the you know of one article of this legislation
00:43:04.120this bill where it establishes that the environmental impact assessment system must now
00:43:12.060also look at the impact of fungi when given an environmental permit that fungi need to be
00:43:20.660included in the species inventory of the country and that public information systems for fungi
00:43:29.300needed to be put in place through regulation what that really translated into was that
00:43:36.100if you are applying for a permit to build a road to build a dam to do a housing development you
00:43:43.780not only have to assess the impact of your project on fauna and flora, but also on the
00:43:51.920funga. The funga is the fungal diversity of a given place. And we're the only country in the
00:43:58.300world where the impact on fungi is assessed prior to giving a permit to impact that ecosystem or
00:44:08.880that territory and you know it's funny that we're talking today nothing is a coincidence but
00:44:15.740i was mentioning gastrobellitus valedianus which is this species that i finally coincided with
00:44:22.480after 20 years of trying to coincide with it um this endangered species of of fungus um
00:44:30.760that you know today there was a news piece that was published around the discovery of this species
00:44:40.600that hadn't been seen for 15 years and I immediately got an email from the the regional
00:44:47.840environment minister of the region where I found the fungus saying this is super important to us
00:44:55.680We do not want housing developments to go on in the habitat where this fungus was found. So really, it's a legislation that gives us a tool, a conservation tool, to protect ecosystems, vulnerable ecosystems, old ecosystems, unique ecosystems from the hand of men and women.0.97
00:45:21.300and it's proving to be quite effective that is so exciting that is really really amazing to hear0.96
00:45:30.960about and going back to going back to what you asked about these ancient ecosystems
00:45:37.200it's it's it's important to keep in mind that there are species of fungi that only grow on
00:45:42.680trees that are older than 400 years old i mean fungi are so species specific that even you know
00:45:49.540the age of the tree is fundamental to um the existence to the reproduction of a fungal species
00:45:57.840so you know loggers won't log trees that are extremely old because they're all rotten inside
00:46:06.180well what is that that's a fungus that's living there a fungus that doesn't live on younger trees
00:46:11.360sometimes um you know and and they the old trees are mostly cut to clear away from for medium-sized
00:46:19.260trees they're just discarded you know thousands of years this ancient being with its ancient
00:46:26.060beings inside and you know included are just discarded to get to you know this this bounty
00:46:33.960you know of of utilitarian you know wood that actually probably isn't even as useful as they
00:46:41.040think so you know so um when once logged but what i mean is that there are fungal reasons to protect
00:46:49.440ancient trees and another very important project of the fungi foundation in that in our conservation
00:46:55.760program is the development of easy access conservation tools based on fungi that can
00:47:04.180give you leverage to protect ancient ecosystems it's so brilliant what you're doing and all the
00:47:12.360folks you work with to have built out this tool or using this tool for conservation and i'm just
00:47:21.840i'm really blown away right now and i'm really grateful that this is a a tool that can be used
00:47:28.760And I'm hoping that folks in other places get inspired by what you're doing down in Chile and try to understand how to bring that to more countries and more places so that development doesn't completely destroy these ecosystems that we know is extremely challenging, if not sometimes impossible, to support them to return to what they were before the destruction came for them.
00:47:56.600It's absolutely impossible. It's absolutely, I mean, you cannot compensate for the age of a tree. And, you know, in the Pacific Northwest, and then, you know, the Pacific coast of Canada, my dear friend and brother, Paul Stamets, he was one of the first people who used the fungal leverage to protect old forests.
00:48:26.060He discovered, you know, the Fomitopsis officinalis, the agaricon, the agaricon fungus had very powerful antiviral compounds.
00:48:36.500Now, those fungi only grow on ancient trees.
00:48:40.520And he made it a matter of national defense in the U.S. to protect the forest,
00:48:46.240because on those old trees grew an old fungus that had antivirals found nowhere else in nature.
00:48:53.580so you know this is something that the future of old forests in my view has a chance looking at the
00:49:04.700fungal reasons to protect them and i hope that goes more mainstream i do too and yeah i just
00:49:15.960want to jump back to the fungal diseases for a moment and i'd also like to ask about the recent
00:49:23.940increase in fungal diseases and i know you touched on this but specifically how is climate change
00:49:30.060contributing to the rise of fungal pathogens that target crops or other species and which
00:49:36.780fungal diseases pose the greatest threat to global or even local ecosystems i think that there are
00:49:43.580two ways of looking at this. I mean, by looking at the proliferation of a fungal species that
00:49:49.380might be detrimental to a plant or an animal, it doesn't mean that the fungus is causing that
00:49:55.140detriment. Fungi, as our plants and animals, are opportunistic organisms. And where there is an
00:50:03.100imbalance, they will thrive. Now, there are two ways of looking at that thrive. One is that they
00:50:10.900are causing the problem and another is that they're quote-unquote solving a problem because
00:50:18.240if through climate change several plants are dying what the fungi are doing there is decomposing to
00:50:25.320enable recomposition in some cases they're not just you know this intelligent being that's out
00:50:31.980to kill all the trees no they are being opportunistic opportunistic at this available
00:50:38.780energy that is becoming available because of a larger imbalance in the system so i i'm always
00:50:46.580very weird you know very careful when talking about fungal pathogens because in my view most
00:50:55.240of the cases are fungi that are that are making the most of a larger imbalance that they have not
00:51:03.440caused it's like when you look at wheat lagoche and corn right it's incredible that most of the
00:51:13.840countries in the world are spraying their corn and maize to get rid of pathogens that it's actually
00:51:19.460an edible species that is extremely has a lot of nutrition so so it's sort of you know what came
00:51:27.560first the chicken or the egg you know what came first was it the was it this beautiful pristine
00:51:34.440you know unspotted cob you know with of corn or is it this symbiotic organism with the fungus that
00:51:46.360can also feed you as well as the corn or you know with a balanced cycle i think there's a
00:51:52.680misconception of what health is in an ecosystem health is not necessarily everybody living
00:52:00.760happily forever after health has imperfections in an ecosystem it has decomposition it has
00:52:09.840transitioning of one life form to another fungi are the ones that normally do that and they are
00:52:17.260stigmatized for doing so but in a healthy ecosystem there is abundant decomposition
00:52:24.240you know it's not it's not zero decomposition it's important to let things rot
00:52:30.400mm-hmm yeah well thank you for yeah for um bringing us to that
00:52:40.520well I wouldn't say conclusion but just grounding us in that reality and yeah I would like to
00:52:49.060transition now our conversation to discuss the patriarchal undertones of the field of mycology
00:52:54.760and so you know blatantly speaking uh the mycological world or at least in the so-called
00:53:11.040west is dominated by a lot of older white men and there's a lot of ego there as well
00:53:17.200and so i wonder if you could share your experiences working in the field as well as
00:53:24.040the importance of dismantling the patriarchal Eurocentric structure so that mycology may be
00:53:31.660more welcoming to a more diverse audience? Yeah, it's such a good topic. I don't know
00:53:40.180if I'm laughing out of nerve or just how ridiculous it really is in many places. I think0.81
00:53:48.080that i mean the origin of this comes from you know the late 17th century you know european
00:53:56.580takeover of you know professions quote-unquote professions where paganism was driven out you
00:54:06.140know the church overtook you know the natural sciences you know anybody who practiced medicine
00:54:13.540outside of the accepted establishment, all male, was a witch and had to be burnt.0.70
00:54:22.340And that has really lived on fiercely in the natural sciences.
00:54:28.520It was only really in the early 19th century that some females in this quote-unquote Western world
00:54:41.580were even allowed to go to secondary school and it was really in just the late 19th century where
00:54:51.320females were allowed women were allowed to go to university and work in research
00:54:59.620so it's it's it's a dramatic scenario of a whole science that has either been
00:55:08.880dominated by males or where there's been a domination by female researchers but that have
00:55:20.560never been acknowledged because they're women and therefore men have been acknowledged for their work
00:55:25.900you know and that's not very hard to find even you know Fanny Hess who was a brilliant
00:55:32.840microbiologist she invented um she discovered um the the agar gel to you know to be able to
00:55:41.940cultivate microorganisms but it was you know her boss who took the credit for it because you know
00:55:48.600she was just this woman working in the lab you know she wasn't uh she wasn't anybody to to be
00:55:53.640attributed with that discovery um and today thankfully less and less we're seeing we're
00:56:00.880seeing this happen although studying in the university is still quite an elite opportunity
00:56:07.580and it has to be said i mean you need quite a lot of money to be able to go to university still in
00:56:13.380most countries of the world um there the there's been only very recently a drive for more inclusion
00:56:23.380in access to undergraduate and graduate studies,
00:56:30.220there's a difference in different regions.
00:56:33.960While in South America, for example,1.00
00:56:39.580there are many, many female mycologists0.69
00:56:43.020and there are many generations of women working in mycology.0.99
00:56:48.080But what's traditionally happened is that women have been excluded1.00
00:56:53.240from field activity and left more in the lab so women because they can do the delicate job of1.00
00:57:00.720slicing specimens or you know because they need to be taking care either of their parents or of1.00
00:57:07.700their children and they or of their husband so they need to you know have like a nine to five
00:57:13.160job and field mycology this you know treacherous rugged dirty job where you're working for1.00
00:57:20.540you know 20 hours a day and walking for weeks was deemed as unfit for a woman0.96
00:57:27.800not elegant at all dangerous and taking a woman to neglect her family so that was you know that's
00:57:37.700only just starting to change when I started working in field mycology 23 years ago I remember
00:57:45.380of people saying oh and um you know how how do you do it you know where do you get changed in
00:57:52.280the field i would just be looking at them thinking is this a joke then questions when i was you know
00:57:59.420married and a mother like who looks after your son while you're out in the field i would be
00:58:06.320thinking i wonder if they ask my husband who's looking after his son when he's working you know
00:58:12.660no way i mean this was just a very gender biased question or um you know how are you who's who's
00:58:21.880staying at home who's looking after your house when you're you know in the field for a month
00:58:27.120well you know nobody i live with somebody else and he can do that too but all this was unthinkable
00:58:35.060even 20 years ago, I got so many insinuations that I was neglecting my son because I was in
00:58:43.680the field for two weeks straight. I was even told by several people to consider the damage that
00:58:50.020would bring to my boy of his mom not being around every year in four. I mean, it gets to that level.
00:58:59.760That's why I laugh, because you either laugh or you cry or you get really angry.