For The Wild - April 10, 2020


Homebound: Decentralizing the Power of Healing with Dr. RUPA MARYA ⧸169

Topics
ESTRELLA SANTIAGO PÉREZ on the Importance of Community Sovereignty ⧸168 DeeplyRooted: Declaring Interdependence with MILLA PRINCE ⧸170

Episode Stats


Length

59 minutes

Words per minute

146.15

Word count

8,671

Sentence count

420

Harmful content

Misogyny

3

sentences flagged

Toxicity

13

sentences flagged

Hate speech

28

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
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00:00:30.000 hey for the wild family carter lou here presenting the second episode in our homebound series
00:00:43.840 homebound is a selection of curated episodes from the archives intended to share perspective
00:00:49.600 and guidance in the midst of a time of tremendous uncertainty and possibility we understand that
00:00:56.240 while society appears ripe for transformation, we are also being inundated with information
00:01:01.720 that may feel paralyzing and that also perpetuates the culture of fear. As a response, we offer this
00:01:08.720 series that explores physical, emotional, and spiritual preparedness, self-reliance,
00:01:14.280 and community sovereignty. For our second offering, we're re-releasing our conversation
00:01:20.100 with Dr. Rupa Mariya on decentralizing the power of healing. As you listen, please take moments of
00:01:26.960 gratitude for the incredible healthcare workers and frontline responders like Dr. Mariya who are
00:01:32.560 showing up every single day. Initially aired in January of 2020, this episode reminds us that
00:01:39.400 the blatant neglect for people's well-being amidst this global pandemic is not coincidence or
00:01:44.640 negligence. It's the result of a global system that has historically centered profit over people.
00:01:50.960 Rupa reminds us that the health of the people should be our guiding light in principle,
00:01:56.080 so we ask ourselves the following.
00:01:58.760 How can we begin investing in our own economies of care?
00:02:02.580 Why is healthcare for all and the abolition of medical debt and the for-profit medical system absolutely imperative?
00:02:10.420 And most importantly, how can we derive our medicine in relation to one another
00:02:15.540 as we acknowledge that the wellness of self is inextricably connected to the wellness of others.
00:02:21.660 We hope you enjoy this conversation. And now, on to the show.
00:02:28.900 Welcome to For the Wild podcast. I'm Ayanna Young. Today on the show, I'll be speaking with Dr. Rupa
00:02:35.880 Maria, an Associate Professor of Medicine at UC San Francisco and Faculty Director of the Do No
00:02:42.900 Harm Coalition, a collective of over 450 health workers committed to addressing structural issues
00:02:49.900 that make health impossible for communities. When someone says, well, how do I get involved
00:02:55.080 in climate justice? You go, show up the next time a Black person is shot by the police. 0.99
00:02:59.860 Show up and shut down that city hall. Because that violence towards that Black person is the 1.00
00:03:04.260 same violence that removed the Indigenous people from this land. And those people who were on this 1.00
00:03:08.920 land knew how to run this land knew how to be on this land dr maria has been working to make
00:03:16.360 visible the health issues at the nexus of racism and state violence through her medical work the
00:03:22.600 justice study national research investigating the health effects of police violence on black brown
00:03:27.760 and indigenous communities helping set up a free community clinic for the practice of decolonized
00:03:33.240 medicine under lakota leadership at standing rock the mini wachoni health clinic and farm
00:03:38.320 and international outreach with her band Rupa and the April Fishes.
00:03:43.520 She is currently working on a book with author Raj Patel
00:03:46.460 looking at the health impacts of colonization and capitalism.
00:03:50.520 Through her compositions and her band Rupa and the April Fishes,
00:03:54.420 they create a sound that pulsates with the pluralism of Bay Area culture.
00:03:59.380 Celebrating life and the art of resistance through a wide musical palette
00:04:03.560 that pulls from over a decade of playing street parties, festivals, and symphonic concerts
00:04:09.000 through 29 countries with songs in five languages.
00:04:13.440 Under the direction of composer, frontwoman, activist, and physician Rupa,
00:04:18.380 the band creates a live experience which is a manifestation of a world beyond nations,
00:04:24.600 where the heart of humanity beats louder than anything that divides us.
00:04:28.360 well welcome rufa thank you so much for joining us and i have to say you have been on my guest
00:04:37.300 wish list for years so today feels like a gift to be able to be spending this time with you
00:04:43.080 thank you so much i'd like to begin our conversation in recognition of quote the body
00:04:49.300 as a map of society's illness which is a quote of yours i came across in preparation for this
00:04:55.100 interview. And the notion of our bodies as a guidepost for social change is really so powerful.
00:05:02.740 And I'm hoping we can begin with you sharing a bit more about our collective health and what
00:05:09.020 that says about the current state of our society. Why is it necessary to think about and address
00:05:15.120 health in acknowledgement of social illness? Well, I think that the same sicknesses that are
00:05:22.860 impacting our planet. And by that, I mean, sort of the root causes of our illnesses are the same
00:05:27.900 ones that are driving a lot of the diseases that we see as hallmarks of industrialized societies.
00:05:33.900 So these diseases that have at their origin, an element of inflammation, often chronic
00:05:40.340 inflammation. And so when we look at how we abuse our soil, our water, our air, these things are
00:05:49.600 also manifested in how our guts, our heart, our waterways, and our own body, and our lungs,
00:05:56.840 how all of these things are impacted. And so I really think that the structures that we're seeing
00:06:02.160 with colonization, and I really say it as like the misunderstanding of the commons,
00:06:10.480 that these things that are necessary for everyone to live, that belong into themselves and not to
00:06:16.880 anybody in particular, are things that need to be protected and honored and cared for because
00:06:24.020 ultimately, when they are not, our bodies suffer. And the structure of society as has been advanced
00:06:31.340 through the Extractive Capitalist Project and the Colonial Imperialist Project around the world,
00:06:38.400 those structures actually target exactly those things, the commons, the soil, the dirt, the land,
00:06:45.180 the water, the air, and our energy. Thank you, Rupa, for that introduction.
00:06:51.860 Medically speaking, what is chronic stress, anxiety, fatigue, and trauma doing to our bodies?
00:06:59.760 Why must we recognize this as a slow violence? So the chronic wear and tear of chronic stress,
00:07:09.320 trauma like you can put anxiety in there as well all of these phenomena drive low patterns of
00:07:18.060 inflammation in our bodies and deplete our bodies of the entities that actually defend our physical
00:07:26.980 systems from the impacts of chronic inflammation so for example anxiety we know now actually
00:07:33.700 alters which microbes can survive in your gut. And the gut microbiome is actually our first and
00:07:41.340 last defense against inflammation. These microbes that live in our gut, which, you know, we have
00:07:46.700 more cells on and in our body that are not us than are us. So we are more another than we are
00:07:53.980 ourselves, which I find poetic and powerful and interesting. And so these organisms in our gut
00:08:00.320 actually modulate our immune system. They modulate our emotions. They modulate our
00:08:06.980 neurologic development and our immune system development. And so when there is anxiety and
00:08:14.440 stress and trauma, these things, it affects us down to our very cellular level. And when those
00:08:21.020 microbes are depleted in our gut or altered in certain ways that we don't end up having the ones
00:08:27.480 that can protect us from inflammation, the inflammation kind of continues and smolders,
00:08:32.160 which leaves us vulnerable to all sorts of diseases. One of the most interesting things
00:08:36.940 I've found is the relationship of diabetes to inflammatory processes that are related to
00:08:42.760 things like self-determinism. So indigenous groups that have greater sense of autonomy
00:08:48.840 and self-determinism are protected from development of type 2 diabetes, which I find
00:08:54.420 totally fascinating. So what is the connection between that decolonizing reality of being able
00:09:01.820 to advance one's own agenda for one's people that isn't dependent on imperialist structures
00:09:09.580 or imperialist permission? And so that to me suggests that there's something deeply going on
00:09:16.700 with how our social systems and our minds and our cosmologies are translated down into the
00:09:23.980 molecular level of our bodies and interpreted through the cellular communication between those
00:09:29.500 organisms that are absolutely necessary for our life in our microbiome and around our skin inside
00:09:35.540 of us, and then our own cells. And I think that as the science becomes clearer, we'll come to see
00:09:41.900 that these things are in very deep communication, not just within our bodies, but between our bodies
00:09:46.620 and our surroundings. So that, you know, if we're living in a sterilized soil, eating food that has
00:09:52.140 been sterilized by the use of fossil fuel inputs in our food system. So all the synthetic pesticides,
00:09:59.020 herbicides, and fertilizers that we use in our food system widely in conventional agriculture
00:10:03.940 completely destroy the life of the soil, the vibrancy, the fertility, and the microbiology
00:10:11.220 of the soil. So these systems are all operating at the same time and they're interrelated. And I
00:10:18.240 think this is what climate change is showing us. This is what it's bringing to the forefront is
00:10:23.380 that you actually can't talk about diabetes without talking about what's happening to the
00:10:28.080 soil, without talking about the built environment, without talking about the toxic exposures, 0.60
00:10:33.660 without talking about the violence towards black, brown, poor, and indigenous people 1.00
00:10:37.540 that is a part of the engine of this society. And so to remove any of these pieces from each other, 1.00
00:10:44.640 you miss actually seeing the whole thing. And so that's why this systems level thinking is crucial
00:10:51.520 for actually obtaining the correct diagnosis. Without the correct diagnosis, we will simply be
00:10:57.600 offering insulin to the disease, to the patient whose pancreatic cells are not producing enough
00:11:04.780 insulin, rather than seeking the question, why are so many people's pancreatic cells
00:11:10.900 pooping out on them? What is driving this? And so that is what I'm interested in is what is
00:11:17.980 driving this and how can we create solutions that will decentralize the power of healing,
00:11:24.180 which is truly to decolonize, is to empower people's healings through multiple and local
00:11:31.640 modalities where they are involved in structural change that makes these diseases rampant. And so
00:11:39.120 that's really what I'm interested in is the social structural analysis to help move the
00:11:45.580 needle on these diseases. Rupa, as you've been speaking, it's clear that much of your work
00:11:50.840 revolves around decolonizing medicine. And this word carries so much and is often used in many
00:11:57.880 different contexts. So I'm wondering if you could share with us what this means not as a metaphor,
00:12:03.640 but in practice as it pertains to medicine, as well as how this makes medicine accessible to all
00:12:10.140 and forces us to explore the ways in which we have gone about legitimizing Western medicine
00:12:15.880 and basically delegitimizing everything else.
00:12:20.180 Right. So I think that part of that decolonization is removing the imperial structure of medicine.
00:12:26.660 So a physician trained in Western medicine is really good at certain things,
00:12:31.540 And we're really bad at other things. Like we have very limited understanding of how the mind and body interact. We have very little understanding of how social structures impact illness. We have very little understanding of how cosmologies, like people's understanding of who they are and why they're sick and what medicine means and how they get well.
00:12:56.320 that these are things that have profound and subtle effects on the body, we have very little
00:13:02.360 understanding of how plant medicines work to support health and how traditional medicines
00:13:08.840 work to support health, traditional medicines from around the world. And so that being said,
00:13:14.500 I think if you think of colonialism as a system where power is centralized for the purpose of
00:13:20.500 exploiting resources to concentrate the profits of those resources in the hands of very few people,
00:13:27.580 often pulling wealth away from the communities, like extracting that wealth off to like some
00:13:33.700 remote location. The power in that system is not within the hands of obviously those who are
00:13:40.400 colonized, the vast majority. If you look at the wealth inequality that has been really driven
00:13:46.800 through neoliberal policy around the world, but especially you see it here in the United States,
00:13:52.940 very profoundly here in the Bay Area, that it's the same structure. Colonialism isn't simply just
00:13:58.680 brown and black people being oppressed by white people around the world. It's happening within
00:14:03.260 societies. It's happening all over us, all around us. And so decolonizing is really, to me, I see it
00:14:11.300 is a system of decentralizing that power, of localizing that power, and reconnecting those
00:14:18.240 things that have been divided and conquered. And for me, that really is reconnecting ourselves to
00:14:23.720 the earth, ourselves to each other, and ourselves inside our bodies, like understanding who we are
00:14:28.680 and what medicines work for us and what medicines don't. And I think that science and Western
00:14:33.840 medicine have given us a lot and should be used. I'm not at all someone who's willing or
00:14:39.020 interested in throwing away those powerful tools that can be available to us. I also believe that
00:14:45.660 there are other modalities that are equally powerful in different contexts, and sometimes
00:14:51.140 in the same context, and that those things should be integrated and really brought to bear on how
00:14:57.540 people are able to heal. Thank you for that, Rupa. Now, I know that many of us are familiar
00:15:05.640 with the horrors of our current healthcare model, given that over half of all Americans
00:15:11.860 struggle with healthcare costs. So I'd like to transition into a conversation on medical debt
00:15:17.820 and the for-profit sector of medicine. Perhaps you can begin by sharing the pervasiveness of
00:15:24.720 the for-profit sector of medicine, or why you think there is such an aversion to enacting
00:15:30.620 mass healthcare reform, despite the reality that our medical system is devoted to profit
00:15:35.940 above anything else? We have been divided and conquered in our minds and in the space of our
00:15:45.900 imagination. So when I was in medical school at Georgetown University and I was in an ethics class
00:15:53.060 and I raised my hand and I said, does anyone else here see an ethical problem with being involved
00:15:59.680 in a medical system that is for profit. And everyone turned and looked at me like,
00:16:05.360 who is this person from California? And I realized like, no, that is actually a central
00:16:11.460 core belief for me is that if you are making a profit off of people's suffering, you are
00:16:17.760 involved in very tricky, unsavory business. And so the very issue of providing people with such
00:16:26.640 a basic need, which is to be able to see a doctor or a nurse, a healthcare provider when people need
00:16:33.900 it, and to be able to see someone to help them maintain their wellness and their lives, this to
00:16:40.160 me should not be a for-profit industry. This should be a service, a public service. And so I have seen
00:16:47.560 many families across all walks of life and from all sides of the political spectrum run into
00:16:55.920 medical bankruptcy when someone got really sick and they're in the hospital for six months or
00:17:01.980 they're in a nursing home for three years and their family goes bankrupt. It is the number
00:17:09.220 one cause of bankruptcy, personal bankruptcy in the United States, which to me is criminal that
00:17:15.100 we have a society that is so wealthy and cannot manage to find a way to take care of its own
00:17:23.860 people. And so I am a big fan of Medicare for all. I'm very excited that I just got appointed
00:17:30.320 by Governor Newsom to sit as a commissioner on this Healthy California for All Commission,
00:17:36.860 which is to find a way to bring universal healthcare to all of California. And so I
00:17:42.980 have a very deep belief that we can do this. We have to restructure our priorities. But I think
00:17:48.720 that it is something that all people deserve. All people deserve it.
00:17:56.000 Rupa, I absolutely agree that all people deserve healthcare. It's ridiculous that when our people
00:18:02.520 are trying to heal from an injury or illness, they also have to deal with the stress of debt.
00:18:07.840 I mean, how are people supposed to heal well with the stress and the inflammation and all that it
00:18:12.740 brings. It's insanity. It's just a really insane system. And well, anyways, before I go down that
00:18:22.160 rabbit hole, I want to go back to this presentation that I revisited that you gave at
00:18:30.860 Bioneers in 2017, where you discussed the free community clinic where you helped support at
00:18:36.780 Standing Rock. And you shared how the space for the clinic was radically different than
00:18:41.160 what we're used to. The exam rooms were big enough to fit a whole family. There was to be a
00:18:46.440 ceremonial space, a children's space, an elder's space, and classrooms all within the clinic.
00:18:52.820 And this got me thinking about what it would look like if we centered health in our national dialogue.
00:18:59.560 So I'm curious to ask, what do you think society would look like if the pursuit of health was the
00:19:05.100 foundation of our organizing? Well, I think we would not be spending as much money on the military
00:19:11.480 and that would actually free up a lot of budget to do some very exciting things.
00:19:16.080 I think if we centered health and wellness, we would not allow the toxic pollution. We do allow
00:19:23.280 right now, basically right now, industry runs our public health in this country. Industry dictates
00:19:28.660 what the public is exposed to, what the legal limits are of exposures. Lawmakers are in the
00:19:35.560 pockets of these industries, which I've seen here in our own Oakland. People who are apparently
00:19:40.900 progressive candidates are being supported by the same polluters. The second largest air
00:19:46.760 polluter in the Bay Area is the AB&I Foundry. And so these corporations are buying off our
00:19:53.920 politicians. That should be illegal. The health of the people and the wellness of all people should
00:19:59.620 be our guiding light in principles and the health of the earth and the health of the soils and the
00:20:06.520 health of the water. And so these things are things that I would say that indigenous peoples
00:20:12.540 around the world know and our California tribal people know. And so I would love to see a way
00:20:19.640 where we would prioritize that as our guiding light
00:20:23.460 and really shape everything around that.
00:20:26.780 Because then our cities would become more livable.
00:20:29.440 Public transportation would be free
00:20:31.060 because why should it not be?
00:20:33.440 I mean, it's ridiculous that we have more billionaires
00:20:35.720 per square foot in California
00:20:37.440 than anywhere on planet Earth.
00:20:39.340 And we can't even get enough funding
00:20:43.040 to get public transportation covered.
00:20:45.160 So people don't have to drive their cars. 0.77
00:20:47.060 Imagine what that would do for fossil fuel use.
00:20:49.640 But we don't do that because we allow those industries, so we allow the Google buses to run through San Francisco and completely change, you know, fuel the housing crisis, essentially.
00:20:58.820 We allow these, you know, corporate buses and corporations to dictate how public life will be.
00:21:05.060 It would be amazing to have health be that guiding light instead.
00:21:09.340 I'm thinking about some of the incredibly harmful and abusive parts of western medicine
00:21:16.340 especially its history of involuntary testing and forced sterilization in some ways it seems
00:21:22.940 like the medical field hasn't been forced to reckon with these injustices because it is such
00:21:28.440 a vital field that we are almost all dependent on so I'm wondering if you could discuss what
00:21:34.920 you think proper reparations from the medical community should look like?
00:21:40.000 Yes. So medicine has been used as a tool of empire since the beginning of the colonial project
00:21:48.220 in Africa, in Asia, and here in the Americas to the indigenous peoples. Absolutely, there needs
00:21:57.080 to be reparations and accountability, because that violence is a part of our history.
00:22:05.320 And when you look at the current dynamics within the medical institutions, and you see how medical
00:22:14.260 racism still exists, whether it's conscious or unconscious, it's criminal. And I don't think
00:22:21.140 that if we do not contend with our past, there's no way we can heal our present or go into the
00:22:27.900 future with any different outcomes. So absolutely, medicine has been weaponized against oppressed
00:22:35.860 peoples. And we need to repair that and be accountable to that and change it because those
00:22:43.100 systems are still in place. It might not be happening the same way. The forced sterilization
00:22:48.160 of indigenous women performed by doctors of the IHS in the United States up until the 1970s.
00:22:55.980 That is not happening today, but that system was never held to account for the violence,
00:23:03.060 the eugenics and the violence that was practiced by licensed physicians. So absolutely, we need to 0.75
00:23:09.580 be accountable and we need to repair. And that's where Western medicine, as a practitioner of
00:23:16.240 Western medicine with a eye for decolonizing. For me, it's always, you know, I hold my training
00:23:24.640 with a great deal of respect and also a degree of skepticism to try to understand the best way
00:23:30.720 and the best thing I can do for a particular patient. And as we're talking about reparations,
00:23:36.860 I'm curious what these reparations would actually look like. What would tangible forms of reparations
00:23:43.160 be? Oh, God, how do you repair testing on someone without their knowledge? I mean, that's like,
00:23:51.960 that's like Nuremberg trials, you know, that's the stuff of Nazi Germany. How do you make repairs 0.89
00:24:00.160 for that? I don't have a sense of what that looks like. I think for California natives,
00:24:05.960 I would love to see rematriation of land and sacred sites. I would love to see 0.88
00:24:12.240 indigenous people in charge of any industry and development in California. I'm having the
00:24:18.900 capacity to veto anything that we do and the capacity to lead. So I think that, you know,
00:24:24.900 reparations would take its form with every different group that has been harmed, would
00:24:31.340 need to take a different form with every group. But I think that it, I think the first part to
00:24:35.680 that is acknowledgement that this has happened. And that is something that I would love to see
00:24:40.960 happen. And now that there are more women of color in positions of power in institutions of 1.00
00:24:46.620 medicine, these dialogues are coming up, which is exciting. I really agree with you that
00:24:52.220 acknowledgement is a good place to begin and that there will never be a one size fits all approach
00:24:58.880 or solution. Yeah. Now I'd like to turn towards your work with the Do No Harm Coalition and
00:25:06.900 your commitment towards chronicling what the absence of justice does to community health.
00:25:12.840 As I understand it, the coalition was formed in response to ongoing police violence in San
00:25:18.140 Francisco and the 17-day hunger strike by the Frisco Five. There are so many threads to pick
00:25:24.640 up here, but perhaps we can start at the beginning. What are the long-term physical and mental health
00:25:31.000 outcomes of police violence? And why is it necessary to discuss police violence in context
00:25:37.200 to public health? Well, the sixth leading cause of death for African-American males now between
00:25:42.480 the age of 20 and 35 is police violence. So it's up there in the top 10 of things that kill young
00:25:49.340 Black men in the United States. So I feel like anything that is up in the top 10 deserves 1.00
00:25:54.300 special attention. Not only that, it is a top killer of young Black men in this country, 1.00
00:26:02.620 but the process by which justice is either attained or not attained for families after 0.98
00:26:08.600 that person is killed really exposes, kind of widens the wound. So if the wound is the killing
00:26:15.140 and there's no justice, that wound is not healed. It's actually widened. And there becomes an
00:26:21.900 erosion of the very fabric of civic trust, which is needed for good governance and an operational
00:26:28.140 society. And so the wound to the social body, when there is a police killing, when someone who's
00:26:34.720 entrusted with public safety is actually terrorizing the public and that it's happening
00:26:39.980 in such an overtly racist fashion, discriminatory fashion, then that institution that is doing that
00:26:46.840 harming. It needs to be brought into proper alignment with the goals and the vision of
00:26:53.880 our society. And so with police killings, I've seen firsthand how people are traumatized and
00:27:01.760 how the process of trying to seek justice in a system that was never created for the justice
00:27:06.660 of black and brown people, how that frustrates their healing and compounds the trauma. It
00:27:12.740 re-traumatizes them. And so it feels like a very important issue for the healing of our society.
00:27:19.620 Oh my baby, I've grown tired, watching, waiting, as you're decapitating all the flowers I've
00:27:43.140 grown. Hours turn to colors changing. Don't you know I like to sit and watch things bloom?
00:27:58.280 There's more than enough room for you here. By my side, enjoy the alchemy of springtime.
00:28:08.100 In relationship to state-sponsored violence and the long-term trauma it creates, I'm thinking
00:28:15.680 about the ongoing crisis at the border and the daily terror inflicted by ICE and Border Patrol.
00:28:21.980 In this sense, it feels crucial to situate family as medicine. Can you speak to the importance of
00:28:28.780 family reunification and how ICE and our current immigration policy is a clear example of why we
00:28:35.420 must abolish these systems altogether, not merely reform them. Absolutely. So the criminalization
00:28:43.080 of immigration is a recent phenomenon. So we didn't always just pick up people and lock them
00:28:48.580 up or separate them from their children. And really this grew in the Obama era. And that's
00:28:55.780 important to point out because it's not like, oh, we have this evil man, Trump. He of course is 0.69
00:29:00.380 furthering a white nationalist agenda that has been brought forth and really exposed in his
00:29:06.840 henchman, Stephen Miller. But this policy of criminalizing immigration is really something
00:29:12.680 that came out under Obama, who was known as the deporter-in-chief, who deported far more people
00:29:17.900 than Bush I or Bush Part II. And so I think that it's really important to recognize that this
00:29:25.140 system of violence is something that has been going on for a while. It's now just pushed to
00:29:30.320 a head because of the white nationalism that is underpinning a lot of these moves and then the
00:29:36.680 expansion of these programs. I absolutely agree that immigration should be decriminalized. I think
00:29:42.560 these camps should be shut down. I think they're an abhorrency to our nation's history and to our
00:29:47.780 progress as people. And I also think that these migrations are going to get more intense as 1.00
00:29:53.800 climate change becomes more impactful. And those groups that will be hit the hardest are the
00:30:00.320 poorest. And those people are going to move. They're going to move to become secure in their
00:30:06.120 ability to find food, water, and shelter. And so it is a good time to prepare ourselves for this
00:30:12.480 movement that is coming. And it's already coming. So I definitely support the decriminalization
00:30:18.660 of migration. It's a natural phenomenon that's been happening for thousands, 0.97
00:30:23.260 hundreds of thousands of years. And to find a way to, you know, absorb and really work with people
00:30:30.540 and work with other countries that are struggling. So instead of being involved in meddling with
00:30:36.280 Central American countries' power structures, to really let those countries thrive. You know,
00:30:41.520 most people I know from Mexico who are here prefer to be in Mexico. But when our government
00:30:47.060 is involved in drugs and arms trafficking, it doesn't help that society be stable.
00:30:55.040 And that is something I've noticed as an agenda item of the United States in foreign policy, 1.00
00:30:59.460 is that it really does not want to see brown and black countries thrive. And all of the countries 1.00
00:31:04.960 that we are bombing currently, and for the last 20 years, have been brown and black countries. 0.95
00:31:09.920 So that this legacy of racism, of imperialist, racist agenda of the United States is something 0.63
00:31:15.680 that's being perpetuated, you know, right now.
00:31:18.820 It's not something that was just there
00:31:20.060 in the founding of this country
00:31:21.120 where indigenous children were stripped
00:31:23.260 from their parents up until the 1970s
00:31:25.740 and taken away so that they could be grown up
00:31:28.540 in white assimilated situations.
00:31:31.080 This phenomenon is happening today.
00:31:33.440 It's not something that just happened 30 years ago
00:31:36.040 or 200 years ago.
00:31:37.380 This is an ongoing project.
00:31:39.260 And that's why it's important to recognize that,
00:31:41.720 you know, if we can't dismantle these things
00:31:44.420 as people, they will continue to recreate trauma and inflammation.
00:31:51.200 Rupa, I want to read a quote of yours.
00:31:53.960 One of the central challenges of health disparities research is using the language and methodology
00:31:59.600 of the oppressor to document the experience of the oppressed.
00:32:03.700 Do we need data to tell us just how traumatized POCR by police violence?
00:32:08.780 How does the act of doing that study reinforce the very structure of white supremacy
00:32:14.060 that drives this violence and trauma for POC?
00:32:17.780 Can we develop new methodologies to liberate ourselves
00:32:20.880 from the limitations of Western pedagogical structures
00:32:24.080 as we work for the collective liberation of all beings from systems of oppression?
00:32:29.420 This question invites the radical imagination into the spaces of healing,
00:32:33.540 for I believe it is through the realm of the imaginary
00:32:36.060 we will find the paths to healing, which has been deeply divided.
00:32:41.720 Rupa, that is such a beautiful quote.
00:32:43.580 And I really resonate with how you're weaving the imaginary realm into the healing path.
00:32:51.020 So thank you for speaking so clearly to this.
00:32:55.720 And I know that much of your work is in direct acknowledgement of the ways in which white supremacy and colonialism are ever present in the medical field.
00:33:05.720 So I'd like to talk about the challenges of addressing health disparities, particularly in terms of colonial methodologies.
00:33:13.580 How are you imagining a framework that mitigates retraumatization, both in terms of research and care?
00:33:22.520 Yes, I think that that's like my life work.
00:33:27.820 I feel like, you know, right now we're imagining a project in partnership with poverty scholars.
00:33:34.780 So homeless folks who are developing their own paths of homefulness with indigenous women here in the urban environment who are rematriating land with formerly incarcerated people who are learning organic farming techniques as a livelihood and with undocumented folks who are learning farming as well.
00:33:55.080 and one of the questions we have that we're thinking about together is you know if you can
00:34:02.260 give access to food training how to make your own food and land what impact does that have on health
00:34:08.420 and so in that question which could have really powerful data that could be used to drive policy
00:34:15.960 that question is something that has to be driven and inquired and and developed by these people
00:34:27.480 who are asking the question and so instead of being a research that i do that like hey i want
00:34:35.720 to study your bodies for these things that i want to know it's more of uh sitting together
00:34:41.440 in a space of inquiry to say, what can we know here and how can we know it? And what are the
00:34:48.020 ways of knowing that are important to us in our different capacities and in our different
00:34:54.600 ways of coming here together? And so what's created is a real deep space of solidarity
00:35:01.140 and inquiry into how to use different tools that might be available to us, how to rip apart tools
00:35:08.340 that feel violent and intrusive and reframe them or reshape them into something that has a more
00:35:15.480 liberatory energy to it. And so this is a space of really active, creative engagement. There's
00:35:22.680 a wonderful book called Decolonizing Methodologies, which is about research in Indigenous communities
00:35:30.000 led by Indigenous investigators. And that's a very inspiring book. And then there's the work of
00:35:36.300 Tiny Garcia Poverty Scholarship. So she wrote this book, Poor People-Led Theory, Art,
00:35:42.060 Words and Tears Across Mama Earth. And that book is also very inspiring for seeing what are ways
00:35:48.760 we can really partner and be in service and accompany groups who are historically struggling
00:35:57.080 to uplift, help uplift them in their struggles, help participate in moving the needle on the
00:36:04.400 things that they need, that they identify. And so, you know, I have trouble in the health
00:36:09.640 disparity space because it feels that it becomes a morbid fascination in how our bodies are being
00:36:17.320 violated by the structures that are crushing them. And I'm not interested in that morbid
00:36:24.200 voyeurism. I'm interested in, you know, radically redistributing power and resources.
00:36:29.780 And so any way I can use my positionality to do that, I will.
00:36:36.600 Thank you for your reflection, Rupa.
00:36:39.900 We've been talking about these darker areas, and I'd like to bring in some light specifically to the importance of building community-based medicine as an antidote to structural violence.
00:36:52.880 How do you define community medicine, and what does it look like in terms of practices and relationship?
00:36:58.580 I think it depends on the community, but it's definitely medicine that is coming up organically in a community, requested by a community, developed by a community, put together with resources by reaching across to people who might be adjacent to that community.
00:37:16.720 But I think it's medicine that is derived through those relationships rather than something like a doctor or a nurse comes and administers.
00:37:26.140 And it's the medicine of relating and relating in a different way.
00:37:30.680 And so I think that relationships, those webs of relationships that we can reestablish and reattach
00:37:38.960 have a much more profound healing impact than any imposed structure that a health system brings to
00:37:46.820 your town. So I think that doctors and nurses and health workers can be extremely effective and
00:37:52.560 helpful, but they should really be in service of the agenda that a community is setting and not
00:37:57.200 showing up with their own agenda. And so that really is like a, you know, it's a, it's a bottom
00:38:01.680 up philosophy of driving health change. And, and I think that different communities know what they
00:38:09.720 need. They really know what they need. And so our job is to show up and be present and listen,
00:38:16.880 and then work together in that space of the imagination to create what needs to happen,
00:38:24.040 to create new models, to create new alliances and partnerships, and to bring voices to the
00:38:31.100 table that haven't been a part of the dialogue around health that really should be. And so,
00:38:35.840 you know, to be as wide in our net of what wellness and health really means.
00:38:39.900 I love hearing that. I just had an interview with Dr. Kyle White yesterday, and we were speaking
00:38:46.300 about the necessity of trust building and relationship building and consent building
00:38:52.000 and transparency. And just many times when outsiders come in, even with good intentions,
00:38:59.900 it can really disrupt a community. And the relationship building takes a lot longer.
00:39:05.080 And I think that's why people opt out of wanting to do that when they think they have a good idea
00:39:10.060 or they think they know what to do because they just want to implement their idea rather than
00:39:14.820 taking the time to actually build trust, to find out what will be best for the people on the ground.
00:39:21.260 Right. I mean, it's a very like Christian colonial missionary posture is to show up and try to save
00:39:28.380 people. And that's what's happening right now in the climate space, which I find kind of like
00:39:33.560 bittersweet and sad and scary. It's that, you know, we're here at the precipice of human existence
00:39:40.880 being threatened by climate catastrophe as the end expression of the colonial project.
00:39:49.000 So if you go around the world and conquer everybody who knows how to live on their lands
00:39:54.840 in a balanced, ecological, sustainable way, and then impose structures, different religion,
00:40:01.920 different structures, different industries on those lands that can then extract the
00:40:08.300 resources from those lands. You can't live in balance. It's not balanced. It's a highly
00:40:13.860 imbalanced system. And so we are here precisely because of European colonization. This is
00:40:19.960 the end expression of the colonial project is climate collapse. The end expression of imperialism
00:40:25.920 is climate change. And so the people who are positing the solutions right now as they're
00:40:32.260 gathered in Europe, in Madrid, they're European. They're largely the global north. And it's,
00:40:39.280 you know, it's striking to me to think that a system of thought that would lead us here would
00:40:44.160 never be the one to actually solve the problem because the problem is a system of thought.
00:40:49.160 And so how do we empower those people who knew how to be on this in their places to really seize
00:40:58.440 the agenda of how we are together here on this earth because clearly this way hasn't worked
00:41:04.040 it doesn't work it drives illness on every part of our on the planet and our bodies in between us
00:41:11.620 and so we need to be hearing from those voices that are already speaking they've been speaking
00:41:17.700 for 600 years about how to do this differently and so i really follow those voices and i i'm
00:41:24.400 excited to see them rising.
00:41:54.400 Oh, we are invisible and we grow like weeds
00:42:15.400 We are invisible and we blow like seeds
00:42:18.240 We are invisible and we work like bees
00:42:21.040 We are the ones who make the honey
00:42:23.820 I recently came across a really beautiful interview with you that focused on your band, Rupa and the April Fishes.
00:42:53.360 And in this interview, you're quoted as saying, quote, I realized that what music is, it's
00:42:59.880 the original medicine, end quote.
00:43:02.700 And as someone who is both a doctor and a musician, I can see how the common narrative
00:43:07.740 might be to juxtapose these against one another.
00:43:10.860 But this proclamation of music as medicine is so good.
00:43:15.200 So I'd love if you could share with us more about the foundation of your music and medicine
00:43:19.840 and the importance of the revolution being one that sings and dances for ourselves and each other.
00:43:27.720 Yeah. Well, I think that anything, any big lasting social change has to come out of joy.
00:43:34.800 I don't think that lasting social change comes out of violence or comes out of imperialism.
00:43:43.300 I think that that's all temporary.
00:43:45.060 But the things that last are things where there's a balance and a dance and joy.
00:43:52.920 And music for me is joy.
00:43:55.220 And it's a way that I can express some of the heavy and hard things I see when I'm sitting in the hospital with patients witnessing the things that I witness and turn it into something hopeful and heartful and healing.
00:44:11.700 And so music has this powerful alchemy that way to shift our nervous system's vibration, to resonate in our bodies, to move our bodies, to elevate our perspectives, and to make us feel joy.
00:44:28.580 And so I think ultimately, even though we're talking about these really heavy things, because they are heavy, underneath the challenges and kind of pushing the agendas is joy, is a desire to see people thrive, a recognition of what that looks like when people are in harmony,
00:44:49.500 when people are harmonizing with their environment and other beings in their environment,
00:44:55.120 what that looks and feels like and tastes like, that beauty, that joy, that power.
00:45:00.100 So that to me is really, you know, inspiring.
00:45:04.060 And I married a farmer for that reason, an amazing man who's a beautiful farmer.
00:45:09.320 And the way he dances with the earth and the plants, it's just beautiful.
00:45:13.980 It's so beautiful.
00:45:15.440 And I can see his joy in how he tends the earth.
00:45:19.500 And so that really is the way that music heals me.
00:45:25.100 Thank you, Rupa, for sharing some of those personal pieces.
00:45:29.160 And yeah, I think that the revolution needs the healing of joy.
00:45:35.140 What's happening right now and what has been happening is heavy and devastating.
00:45:41.640 And I was with a dear mentor, Joanna Macy, and she was at Cougar Mountain for summer solstice.
00:45:47.280 And we were sitting around the campfire and she was speaking a poem. And I don't want to botch this, but I probably will. So don't quote me on this one. But it was something like, will there be singing in the end times? Yes, there will be singing about the end times or something like that.
00:46:08.640 Will there be singing when the dark times come? You know, that kind of, yeah, that type of message. And I thought that was so beautiful. And I really do feel that finding joy and community is necessary for our survival.
00:46:23.800 so yeah but um speaking of survival i i do want to bring up a topic that i know you're familiar
00:46:31.460 with that is of climate health justice and surprisingly this is something that for the
00:46:37.120 wild has yet to explicitly discuss so i wonder if you could share more about the urgency of this
00:46:43.360 realm and what it means to work in the pursuit of climate health justice what does this mean
00:46:49.140 in terms of protecting and repairing our water, air, and soil?
00:46:54.180 Right, our comments.
00:46:55.860 So the people who have been hit first, worst, and hardest by climate change already
00:47:03.860 are the same people who have been oppressed through colonization. 1.00
00:47:10.000 So the black, brown, poor, indigenous around the world, and it's already happening. 1.00
00:47:17.700 And if you think of climate change, for native Californians here, the climate has been changing since, you know, the 1700s, since the Spanish arrival. 0.99
00:47:29.280 When native people were taken off their lands and the soil was degraded through grazing, the grasses changed from perennial grasses to annual grasses.
00:47:39.360 Tule elk were slaughtered.
00:47:40.940 The grizzly bears were slaughtered.
00:47:42.700 The antelope were slaughtered.
00:47:44.380 The waterways were rerouted for this new agriculture. Spain became Mexico, became California, the gold rush, the bounty days, the wholesale genocide of California native people. There's been climate change for a couple hundred years. And now it has accelerated. 0.73
00:48:02.700 And why I call that also climate change is because, you know, they set up a net basically at the mouth of the Sacramento Delta and just captured all the salmon and canned it.
00:48:13.900 And within like five years, the salmon population was decimated in the early 1900s.
00:48:20.780 With the loss of the salmon, the bear didn't have that phosphorus to eat and then to send out into our forests.
00:48:27.680 And so you lost this natural phosphorus pump that brought all these nutrients in from the ocean up into our deltas, out into our forests.
00:48:36.440 And then the grizzly bears died or were killed.
00:48:39.800 And then the berries, the highway of berries that was running through California were gone.
00:48:46.540 The tule elk were gone.
00:48:47.620 So we lost all this very complex interplay of food systems and then microbial systems and soil microbial systems that drove an incredibly stable system here in California for over 30,000 years.
00:49:05.200 And so within 200 years, you can't drink the water.
00:49:08.380 The air is toxic.
00:49:10.340 The soil has been poisoned.
00:49:12.140 And people are dying of cancer.
00:49:14.940 And, you know, young people have their colons cut out at incredible rates with inflammatory bowel disease.
00:49:21.940 People are developing diabetes, they're depressed, they're suicidal.
00:49:25.140 And all of these things are connected.
00:49:28.400 And so you can really look, you know, sometimes people have a hard time conceptualizing climate justice.
00:49:33.460 You can just look at environmental justice and racial justice and justice for indigenous people.
00:49:40.720 So when someone says, well, how do I get involved in climate justice? 0.90
00:49:44.240 You go, show up the next time a black person is shot by the police. 0.99
00:49:48.100 Show up and shut down that city hall. 0.99
00:49:50.200 Because that violence towards that black person is the same violence that removed the indigenous people from this land. 0.98
00:49:55.580 And those people who were on this land knew how to run this land, knew how to be on this land. 0.79
00:50:00.240 And so if we're not connecting those things, we're missing the whole point. 0.56
00:50:05.660 And it's shocking to me that you'll see throngs of white people show up for the environmental movement. None of them show up when someone's shot by the police. None of them showed up for Jamaica, who was just shot by SFPD like two weekends ago in San Francisco, who's sitting in the ICU on his last breath, 24-year-old.
00:50:24.860 And so that to me shows that people are not making the necessary connections they need to make. They're not understanding actually how we got here. So once white folks are able to understand that the violent systems of white supremacy, which are actually recreated in the environmental movement, which are recreated in our movements for justice, need to be seriously held to task and shifted so that that power structure,
00:50:50.780 So that people understand you put your power behind anything that is damaging and degrading the people, the voiceless, whether that's the water, that's the young black man shot by the police, the indigenous people that are being pushed off their lands, the people who can't speak up when there's like a toxic pollutant, you know, in Richmond or, you know, the refineries or, you know, here in East Oakland.
00:51:16.000 but people don't make those connections. They're out there now to save the world without saving
00:51:20.220 their own neighborhoods, which is, you know, short-sighted and kind of fits with that whole
00:51:24.840 savior complex that brought us here in the first place. And so how do we awaken our great white 0.88
00:51:31.160 sleeping friends who are committed to justice without actually showing up? So I would love to 0.61
00:51:39.580 see them shut down, you know, City Hall the next time someone gets shot. And then I would say,
00:51:43.880 now we're ready for the climate justice movement. Yes. I love those direct, tangible asks.
00:51:50.400 Thank you for planting those seeds in our imagination.
00:51:54.040 Yeah. So I emailed the woman who organizes the San Francisco Women's March. And she said,
00:51:59.280 Rupak, will you please bring your organization to the march this January? Or I can't remember
00:52:05.020 March, whenever it was. And I said, you know, I have yet to see, you know, women in their pussy 1.00
00:52:11.240 hats showing up to city hall when someone shot my police. When I see that, I'm sure I can mobilize 0.99
00:52:18.120 all our people to show up for the women's march, but I don't see that. And I haven't seen that.
00:52:22.960 And I still haven't seen that. And so what can be alienating is when there's this call
00:52:30.720 that we all need to get behind. We do all need to get behind the climate movement,
00:52:35.500 But to fail to understand that that movement is the same movement as fighting police terror, that's sort of the piece that needs to be connected.
00:52:44.740 I'd be remiss if we didn't speak about gentrification and the health crisis, which is something that I think is not talked about nearly enough.
00:52:53.900 But I know that this is an issue that Do No Harm Coalition is tackling, is this gentrification as a public health crisis.
00:53:02.000 So as someone who has experienced the gentrification of the Bay firsthand, how is displacement linked to community health outside the obvious impacts of houselessness, et cetera?
00:53:12.980 Oh, so many ways.
00:53:14.640 So when an area is gentrified, let's say like the Mission District of San Francisco, there are whole economic ecosystems that have developed stably over 50 years that become degraded.
00:53:30.060 Um, so for example, young Latino kids going through the mission might not get a, a loan
00:53:36.620 for going to college, a traditional loan or financial aid from a school or from a bank
00:53:41.860 or from a federal institution.
00:53:43.400 They might get loans through their community.
00:53:46.060 So the community pushes forward its youth through long-term loving engagement and connections.
00:53:55.960 now that that community is you know far flung um you don't have that epicenter of engagement anymore
00:54:02.580 so it erodes the kind of civic life that has developed and that was a safety net whether it's
00:54:10.720 for health care like someone goes through a health care issue an illness and a community is around
00:54:17.080 to stabilize and help get that person back on their feet through gentrification and the moving
00:54:22.580 in of wealthier white and Asian groups to the mission, you don't have that same kind of system
00:54:28.700 anymore. It's less resilient. And that impacts all sorts of people's health, their mental health,
00:54:35.580 their capacity to stay in their homes longer if they're elderly, to stay in their homes in a safe
00:54:41.920 way, and their ability to live and work in their communities. So it has far-reaching effects.
00:54:47.440 There's many, many areas where gentrification has been shown to be bad for health outcomes.
00:54:53.760 So I think it is a very important, important problem.
00:54:57.300 Thank you for speaking to gentrification so clearly, as I'm sure many of our listeners
00:55:02.700 are feeling the pressures of this in their communities.
00:55:06.480 And I just really love how much your work, if not all of it, reiterates the importance
00:55:11.860 of root cause analysis, which is something that feels so close to us at For the Wild.
00:55:17.440 you know, sitting with the ultimate truth that nothing will change unless we address the root
00:55:22.660 of the problem, not the symptoms. Yes. So in closing, Rufa, I'd love to open the conversation
00:55:31.060 to anything you'd like to share or what you see as realistic, a more media system change, or
00:55:37.600 perhaps you could share what you've learned from medicine and music when it comes to shedding our
00:55:42.680 identities as consumers and participating in the world in a meaningful way or more meaningful ways
00:55:49.020 or even if you'd be willing, you could share a little bit about your forthcoming book with Raj
00:55:53.440 Patel. Basically, I'd just like to leave the space open to however you'd like to close this
00:55:59.000 conversation. Oh, thank you. And thank you for inviting me to talk with you. I would just like
00:56:06.860 to say that this is an extremely exciting moment in human history. We have an opportunity right
00:56:13.020 now to imagine other ways and imagine them into being and to create new partnerships that maybe
00:56:22.180 we didn't think of before and to invite healing that is long overdue and to invite
00:56:29.980 social paradigms into our imagination that that have been off in the periphery or thought oh
00:56:38.240 that's impossible we can't do that it's it's a time to bring those things to the table and to
00:56:44.860 bring new relationships to the table and to learn new tools of humility being on stolen native
00:56:51.660 territory and to learn new ways of relating to each other or maybe reawaken old ways of relating
00:56:59.480 to each other. And so I am excited for the future and I'm excited for what the young generation is
00:57:07.140 bringing out right now. And I'm excited for the awakening together to really seize power back
00:57:14.380 into the hands of the people for the improvement of our health and for imagining kinder, more
00:57:20.880 awakened, more inspiring society. Oh, goodness, Rupa, thank you so much for this profound
00:57:27.760 conversation. You are such a
00:57:31.640 warriress for our times, and I really appreciate the way you show up in the world
00:57:36.100 and all you do for our collective survival.
00:57:40.060 Thank you. Thank you so much.
00:57:48.860 Thank you for listening to another episode of
00:57:51.720 For the Wild podcast. I'm Ayanna Young.
00:57:54.440 the music you heard today was from rupa and the april fishes i'd like to take a moment and thank
00:58:02.400 our spectacular podcast production team aiden mccray andrew stores carter lou mcelroy erica
00:58:10.940 ekram aaron wise francesca glassbell hannah wilton and melanie younger before we say goodbye i'd like
00:58:19.800 to make a few shout outs. One, if you want to support this podcast production team in bringing
00:58:27.100 you this content week in and week out, please make a donation at patreon.com backslash for
00:58:34.180 the wild. Also, if you haven't rated us on iTunes, please do so as it really helps build our
00:58:39.960 community. And lastly, sign up for our newsletter on our website at for the wild.world. All right,
00:58:47.040 folks, until next week.
00:58:49.800 Thank you.