00:00:00.000hey friends ayana here it is a crisp new season and we are so excited to bring you a brand new
00:00:14.460series in the company of humpbacks over three episodes we'll wander the waters off alaska
00:00:20.500exploring the lives the thrums and the migrations of humpback whales with stories and insight from
00:00:27.480Fred Sharp, Rachel Mead, and Joe Olson. This series is full of sonic exploration,
00:00:33.940migration stories, and research discoveries. But it's also about something deeper. Curiosity,
00:00:41.180wonder, and the relationships we build with the more-than-human world.
00:00:45.920Along the way, we move between science and story, the technical and the magical,
00:00:51.420between whale thrums and the questions we carry. This journey came to life thanks to the generosity
00:00:57.140and care of the Five Fingers Lighthouse. You can learn more about their work at forthewild.world.
00:01:07.680Episode three brings Rachel Mead into the conversation. Rachel speaks candidly about
00:01:12.960what it's really like to be a scientist working in this field today, the funding realities,
00:01:18.260the pathways into the work, and the day-to-day practice of studying whales.
00:01:22.720Through her perspective, we begin to see what it takes to do this work both rigorously and relationally,
00:01:29.120while maintaining deep care for the animals and the waters she studies.
00:01:33.260This episode invites us to think beyond observation alone,
00:01:37.380offering an honest and inspiring look at the realities and the quiet joys of a life in science.
00:01:46.760The more I learn in general, the less I know I know.
00:01:50.140I love being curious and wanting to know more,
00:01:53.360but I think there is a line sometimes where you just have to, like,
00:01:56.480accept observing things and just sit in that unknown.
00:02:05.600Our first step is just defining all of these sounds,
00:02:08.340because right now the only sounds that are in literature as, like,
00:02:14.020extremely defined are blow, just like a basic blow, a wheezed blow,
00:02:18.160which just has a little more like excitement to it the trumpet which is like really loud blast
00:02:22.920um there have been some notes of like wheezy inhales and then but being out here we've heard
00:02:29.120the blow hoot the pew which is kind of like a just like a pew like that's what it sounds like
00:02:33.920and then um that deep thrum and so first we just want to introduce those new sounds and just make
00:02:40.120a catalog of what are all the aerial sounds and then going into behavioral context would be great
00:02:46.440like do they make trumpets after bubble nut feeding do they make thrums when they're with
00:02:51.720each other or when they're alone just trying to connect it all but it's just going to take
00:02:55.320a lot of time and let's say you found out oh they make thrums when we're there when they're together
00:03:04.260after they just had a big meal and then would you create a hypothesis after that of yeah from there
00:03:12.420yeah well then if that's what we thought we'd try and publish on it and get repeatable data
00:03:17.620we just don't have the resources to really get that data especially with how many thrums happen
00:03:24.000at night we'd need some kind of like thermal imaging or night vision something to see let's
00:03:30.920say we're 10 years in the future you got all the funding you needed you collected the data for
00:03:37.140maybe now 15 years and what do you think you could find yeah once you've collected it well
00:03:44.320can either be maintenance like fred's talking about like cleaning baleen or type of snoring
00:03:50.680or something like that and in that case we're just learning more about another animal on our
00:03:56.860earth and how they function and i think that's really important um to just understand more of
00:04:03.480the world around us and so then we'd share that with the general public and
00:04:06.980get them more interested and excited. If it's communicative that would be a whole
00:04:10.620another level of interest and engagement because when we can show that this
00:04:18.300megafauna is even more like us than we thought and their intelligence and in
00:04:24.580their communication and their empathy it brings a lot of excitement and it can
00:04:28.140bring a lot more conservation efforts to protect them and to taking note of them.
00:04:33.000um it's so I mean I get it because of course I'm a human and I relate everything back to myself
00:04:39.560because I don't know how not to yeah but it is so that we don't know it's like oh they're like us
00:04:45.900so therefore they're worthy of more resources of more protection and that's just unfortunately
00:04:51.200like that's the thing is everyone hates sea world because these beautiful animals are emotional and
00:04:58.140they should be free but then also I know some successful biologists making great efforts in
00:05:03.500conservation that wouldn't be there if they didn't go see Shamu when they were eight years old and
00:05:09.180fell in love with it and it's the same thing with whale watching boats like yeah you should really
00:05:13.780only go on like a six person small boat that's quiet and non-invasive but some people can only
00:05:19.160afford to go on the 80 people large ships and so it's like who who gets the privilege to say like
00:05:25.800you don't get to experience being up close to a whale because you can't afford it you know and so
00:05:30.340it's and then when people do experience that they do care which it sucks that you can't just say
00:05:36.040like you should care about this because it's alive that they have to have some personal connection
00:05:39.660no I mean I think about this all the time that people need to have personal experience most
00:05:45.480likely to care there's that which is okay that you know that's one angle and then um and then
00:05:52.160if they're like us and then you can prove that in court or you can you can push that politically
00:05:58.220and then you can kind of make uh yeah these arguments of why they are more worthy well it's
00:06:05.920interesting too because from the scientific community side and like looking at grants for
00:06:11.480funding there's a lot of people who are interested in large megafauna like whales and sharks and
00:06:18.780turtles and things like that and so the money is actually slimmer because there's that impression
00:06:25.380of so much care towards it whereas like a lot of money actually goes into like diatom research and
00:06:33.880algae and things like that which is great it's all fundamental of our ecosystem and it all connects
00:06:40.400to one another but then it does make it hard sometimes to like secure funding because people
00:06:45.960think oh people love whales so there must be enough money there yeah yeah or just that there's
00:06:51.360so much like there might be a pool of a hundred thousand dollars for diatom research a hundred
00:06:56.580thousand dollars for marine mammal research and only one person is going for the diatoms and
00:07:01.68020 are going for the marine mammal and so then it's harder to progress but it is all important
00:07:08.120research if we aren't monitoring everything then one thing's gonna slip through the cracks and are
00:07:12.980you noticing that this current administration is making things harder oh yeah it's ruining
00:07:18.940everything oh tell me explain that well for one the grfp is run by the nsf the national science
00:07:26.700foundation and so it was already a hyper competitive grant and then this year it got
00:07:31.440slashed in half because they said you don't need this funding we're taking this from you
00:07:36.360there's question on if it was going to be awarded at all to anyone thankfully some people still did
00:07:42.140get grants. And then institutions themselves are getting a lot of funding withdrawn. And so a school
00:07:51.400that used to be able to provide a research assistantship for a master's student now can't
00:07:56.300because the administration has pulled funding from those schools for whatever was in their
00:08:02.140proposal that included DEI or included anything that goes against what the current administration
00:08:08.900views as important I really enjoy hearing the behind the scenes of what it takes to actually
00:08:20.180live this life for you like whether it's like camping out or figuring out how you get the
00:08:26.360funding or yeah yeah it's it's because right now I'd really like to get my master's but
00:08:32.580research-based master masters which is what I'd like to do or very difficult right now because
00:08:37.740You need to match with a principal investigator of a university who is doing research.
00:08:42.700And it used to be that they'd have grant funding or in research assistantship or teaching assistantship.
00:08:49.500But so much money has just been torn from those programs that now you have to come with your own funding, like the GRFP or Department of Defense.
00:08:57.740And so last year I applied for the GRFP but didn't get it.
00:09:01.160And so I'm going to try again this year and hopefully have some funding to go continue my education.
00:09:08.280So if you got your master's, do you know what you'd want to research in?
00:09:14.920Well, the GRFP, the grant proposal I wrote last year was in this research.
00:09:21.000The thrums, yeah, and the aerial sounds.
00:09:23.300But I'm just interested in cetacean bioacoustics in general.
00:09:28.220there's this professor at Oregon State University that does bowhead and other
00:09:33.560Arctic whale bioacoustic research I'm super interested in and I would love to
00:09:37.940be in her lab but with funding it's just difficult right now but I've been in
00:09:45.020contact for a little bit so maybe if I don't find anything and this next year
00:09:49.340possibly the following year but I really need to get publication out on this
00:09:53.580current paper which will make me look more attractive as a master student what inside of
00:10:00.560you says absolutely to living on a rock like I'm so curious about that that inner passion curiosity
00:10:08.480just that I mean how many people would say yes to living on an isolated rock
00:10:13.460yeah in the wilds of Alaska not not many right yeah well this is like my childhood dream like
00:10:21.480when I was when I was six years old I went to first grade and my teacher read us a book about
00:10:26.560whales and I came home and I remember talking to my mom and I was like I want to be a veterinarian
00:10:31.860but just for whales and she was like oh that's called a marine biologist and since then that's
00:10:37.520just like what I wanted to do since I was little and so but growing up in Colorado is 100% landlocked
00:10:43.700and so I feel like that absence makes the heart grow fonder I would just like daydream in class
00:10:49.400about being by the ocean and what that would be like and anytime we got to go anywhere that was
00:10:54.240coastal I'd spend hours just like in the tide pools looking at every little hermit crab and
00:10:59.240snail and things um so that was a passion from a young age and then getting more realistic into
00:11:05.860adulthood is just kind of any opportunity to be connected to that field or in that way I'm going
00:11:12.120take it and then isolation just makes it that much better why i think um because you're really
00:11:19.500just experiencing nature to its fullest and getting to just observe rather than control i
00:11:27.340feel like so much of science and data collection is making a perfectly sterile field and controlling
00:11:33.060every aspect of it but when you're out here you're just at the mercy of the whales and really just
00:11:37.540have to be an observer to what they're doing and what they can teach us gosh I love the way you
00:11:45.740speak it's beautiful and and to be at the mercy of the whales like please take me now yeah like
00:11:53.940I'm ready sign me up they're also just such a besides like what we can learn from them about
00:12:00.640like empathy and communication and all of those things they're just gentle giants it just brings
00:12:06.520a lot of peace when you think about how they just like float through the water and jump out and
00:12:12.160you just like you feel it you're just so passionate about and it's hard to explain
00:12:18.800to people who don't feel that passion for anything which is it is that like calling and that longing
00:12:24.600and I feel like this conversation is really helpful for me because I've lost that a bit in
00:12:30.040the past year just since getting out of school and trying to figure out next steps just kind of
00:12:34.940that reality of our political climate and finances has been extremely discouraging but it's easy to
00:12:42.060lose sight of like what the goal is and what the drive is and yeah it's interesting how many
00:12:49.060people in the environmental field or the earth sciences or the earth connection
00:12:57.340fields I mean there's there's so much under those umbrellas who they just want to be outside but
00:13:04.000because of the way our modern systems are set up they end up being inside on a computer
00:13:09.460so far still dreaming about being outside right still dreaming about being outside but of course
00:13:14.660that's where a lot of the money is that's where the security is sometimes and and it's and and
00:13:21.540then there's the truth that when we love whales or any species of this amazing planet we do have
00:13:30.880to sometimes be on computers and we do have to sometimes be on inside figuring out how to
00:13:36.380organize for them how to coordinate for them how to create movements for them and so it does take
00:13:42.520I mean I struggle with this in my own right with conservation because I just want to be here like
00:13:49.600I want to be on this rock with you and people like you watching the whales and the birds and
00:13:55.420just being in the mystery and being in the presence of them where there there's questions
00:14:01.060and sure maybe there's some something like an answer but it's really just spending this deep
00:14:06.440time but if I want to do something to help the whales help protect them in some way or another
00:14:13.940it's like okay get back to your computer send the emails out have the zoom calls yeah do the
00:14:19.260fundraising and it's like no yeah but you know that's that's just I wish it wasn't part of it
00:14:27.080but I yeah I I have like I'm okay with with doing what I gotta do at this point when another thing
00:14:37.380that's difficult in this field um and Fred's been so great just like taking me I they're out there
00:14:44.600yeah i just heard oh that might be an orca actually up there wow it's amazing it's
00:14:51.300clearing i can't tell maybe it's a group of sea lions it is clearing it is clear um yeah i'm so
00:14:57.040grateful for fred he's really just taken me under his wing and helping me a lot and encouraging me
00:15:02.480to keep going in this field and he's a really great guy um which he's very successful in this
00:15:09.320field and there is an issue where it takes so long to get there that when some people are there
00:15:15.660they kind of push down the younger generation rather than lifting them up like
00:15:20.460not helping with projects but then putting their names first in the paper and things like that
00:15:26.300um for competition right to like yeah just like this is my lab and so it doesn't matter that
00:15:31.300you did all the work and I just read your work my name's still going first because I
00:15:36.100m the pi the principal investigator i i mean i'm imagining some of that is ego for sure and
00:15:44.260wanting to take credit because people want their names out there and they want to get
00:15:48.180they want to be the the shining star on the pedestal and maybe some of it's also
00:15:53.720scarcity competition they don't want somebody else to come in and be a brighter star
00:15:59.560that was a blow hoot blow hoot what's a blow hoot um it just has that like under in tone where it
00:16:09.220goes like um monkeys make a similar sound called a pan hoot and so we kind of named it after that
00:16:16.280blow hoot gosh i could i that's not a sound that's like out there yet that would be a sound
00:16:23.760that we're coining naming where are they yeah the fog just keeps coming in and out
00:16:33.780oh one seagull last year there were like myrrhs all over these rocks
00:16:38.480it's interesting how much the island is different just like a month
00:16:43.980shifted because last year we were here the end of july to then august
00:16:47.500and now obviously it's mid-september like last year there were juvenile bald
00:16:52.540eagles in the nest and sea lions everywhere heading to the rickery and I feel like it's a
00:16:57.160lot quieter this time of year for other wildlife besides whales. I'm hearing somebody out there.
00:17:04.620Yeah come closer. Oh there they are. And I forgot the name of this project you were saying something
00:17:13.000about acoustic this this study out here that you're doing with Fred it's the um well our study
00:17:19.720is basically on non-verbal signals and so any of the sounds that come from their respiratory
00:17:26.560system but right now we're really trying to hone in on the thrums and so this summer has been kind
00:17:34.380of just like very thrum focused we don't really have a specific project title um and and so when
00:17:42.560you're saying the non-verbal because when they're verbal it's like they're singing or they're talking
00:17:46.540Yeah. Yeah. It comes from there. They're called laryngeal sacs. And that's a whole different system. This is just respiratory out of the blowhole. So all these different sounds like the super loud trumpet blast to our low thrum to just the basic like are all just being controlled by what's coming out of the blowhole.
00:18:04.740and that's made up of two nares and so like the thrum we think they can like open and close we
00:18:10.080actually know they can open and close them individually since they have those two openings
00:18:13.860versus odontocetes like toothed whales internally they have two openings but at the top they just
00:18:19.620have that one hole and so they can't move like that and when we're talking about this non-verbal
00:18:26.920verbal communication is it this i mean of course it's not the same but i've been trying to relate
00:18:31.960it to what I understand around humans where I go ah yes yeah so oh or something that was one of our
00:18:39.900original thoughts of this project um Fred's kind of leaning towards that it's more quote-unquote
00:18:47.320maintenance sounds like coughing or sneezing or burping um but original thought is a non-anthrogenic
00:18:56.320view of communication like that those signals could have a lot more meaning than we would be
00:19:01.460able to understand that is kind of like if I come up to you and I just go like I'm communicating
00:19:05.920that I'm stressed and frustrated without using any of my vocal cords but it just will take years
00:19:12.880of data to be able to tell if that would be the case. How could you even tell based off data?
00:19:19.180We would need a lot more money to get a lot more equipment and be able to follow around
00:19:23.300like specific whales and see every behavioral context that each sound is made in. Last year
00:19:30.960we were doing an observation and over by one of the islands over there there was a group of sea
00:19:38.400lions like swimming in the water and then these two humpback whales that came right up to the edge
00:19:42.200of the water and they were repeatedly making that blow hoot sound and it almost seemed like the sea
00:19:47.560lions were like agitating them and the whales could have easily just like left and gone somewhere else
00:19:51.940but they just stayed there and kept making that hoot noise and so that's kind of an interesting
00:19:56.220like interspecies interaction like if they were trying to make a noise back to the sea lions and
00:20:01.680the sea lions are egging them back on or what was going on. That's when it'd be cool to have some
00:20:10.360cool nature documentary drone that could fly over there and observe what's going on and who's doing
00:20:17.380what. I want to pause for a second and share a little behind the scenes story.
00:20:26.220So Fred and I have known each other for years now, and we always run into each other on
00:20:30.800Chichikov Island in Southeast Alaska, where his field office is.
00:20:35.120And every time I see him, he brings the biggest smile to my face, and I usually a little giggle
00:20:40.900because of this very Dr. Seuss-like spirit.
00:20:46.020Same place, different year, and the conversations just keep getting longer, which I am so appreciative
00:20:52.900Now this summer, we ran into each other again, picking blueberries on this little boardwalk trail, and we just stayed there for hours, talking about whales and politics, AI, the oceans, Alaska life, and everything kind of tangled together.
00:21:10.480it felt really easy like oh yeah we are kin and a few months later i'm at my neighbor's house
00:21:18.960picking cherries totally in it hands full not stopping and fred calls he's got joe on speaker
00:21:26.480and they're like you have to come to five fingers lighthouse and i'm thinking okay that sounds
00:21:33.300amazing and also kind of insane like tiny island very very remote cliffs storms my toddler in tow
00:21:42.440boats tides timing no helicopter just so many logistics and still I said yes because this is
00:21:54.440honestly why I do this work I love saying yes to wild invitations to people who are deeply in
00:22:01.740relationship with place to stories that come from the land and water and the more than human world
00:22:08.100and i guess that's what i want to name here for the wild is shifting we're becoming a studio now
00:22:15.560partnering with people and groups who want help telling their stories if you're holding a place
00:22:21.480or a project or a campaign and you're feeling like this needs to be told well that's something
00:22:28.880we do. We only take a few projects each year, but if you feel called to reach out, to invite
00:22:34.500us in, we'd love to hear from you. Email us at connectatforthewild.world. Okay, back to
00:22:49.000That sounds interesting. Just like how easy it is. It's not just the normal.
00:22:55.680right that one was normal right that was like
00:22:59.580and the other one was all like but like yeah right it did kind of sound like a nose blowing
00:23:07.660yeah i could see why fred thinks it might be like they're just trying to clear out or it's
00:23:12.800like more of a absolutely uh-huh i think it's also like these are intelligent animals but it's
00:23:19.460bold of us to never assume that they just like make mistakes like go um or uh or things like
00:23:26.100that there is of course a resistant part of me that says why would we even think we would know
00:23:34.220like yeah after all the data we could ever collect why would we think that we would know
00:23:41.180what they're really doing or say oh it's just that or it's just this or it's this very deep
00:23:47.700complex thing that we say think is like it's it's it's all a best guess yeah it's all right it's all
00:23:55.740a best guess and I think what's also interesting with science and we got here one more time oh yeah
00:24:01.900and kind of like human exceptionalism is how many times can we look back and I'm not talking so much
00:24:07.440about whales but just in general how many times can we look back and see people who are like it's
00:24:12.920this and then it's like oh whoops and there was so much conviction and data and research and
00:24:19.860whatever that this was the way it was yeah and then we find out new information yeah we find
00:24:28.100out new information and and all of that conviction and and and kind of like a righteousness where now
00:24:36.080i feel comfortable in that i don't actually really know much but i'm going to love you anyways it
00:24:42.460kind of what we were talking about earlier of like can we care about a species without
00:24:46.420having to experience them um the more i learn in general the less i know i know
00:24:53.540yeah when i love being curious and wanting to know more but i think there
00:25:00.800is a line sometimes where you just have to like accept observing things and just kind of
00:25:07.100of sit in that unknown um they're making great sounds right now and what what's what's a great
00:25:15.840sound to you just that's not just but it has that like someone was just doing something out there
00:25:20.920pretty active there was some water splashing um like the wheezes and the hoots that was probably
00:25:25.580a breach because we heard that yeah that thud what's it like to be a woman in this field or
00:25:33.340your experience marine mammal field is very female led and women led which is great and
00:25:42.660not great at the same time it's really who you interact with who you work with I've met women
00:25:50.220that's like heck yeah like let's support each other let's get through this like you have this
00:25:55.740position now and will help me out I'm gonna have this position in the future and will help me out
00:25:59.480And we can both be successful in this career field.
00:26:02.320And then, this is not just women, but there are other, this field is so heavily women.
00:26:06.560And most people that I've worked with are women, where there's this big mentality of like, look, I did this, and I did this, and I did this.