For The Wild - JILL WEITZ on Salmon Beyond Borders ⧸165

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00:00:30.000 hey for the wild community it's ayana here today we're airing a special in-person conversation

00:00:56.800 with Salmon Beyond Borders campaign director Jill Weitz that was recorded during my trip up

00:01:02.440 to Alaska and British Columbia back in 2018. At the time, I remember feeling so enraptured by

00:01:09.640 the beauty of this region, while in the same breath trying to wrap my mind around the scale

00:01:14.940 of devastation that resource extraction has brought to these primordial forests and wild

00:01:20.280 salmon rivers. For me, this conversation helped connect the dots within the world of mining,

00:01:26.800 from the complex permitting process to the nitty-gritty of enforcement,

00:01:31.800 revealing a stunning picture of the true giant that is this industry.

00:01:36.320 In many ways, Jill's work with Salmon Beyond Borders is all about intersections.

00:01:41.200 Their campaign tracks a dozen large-scale mines at the headwaters of the Taku, Stikine, and Eunuch rivers

00:01:48.920 that originate in northwest British Columbia and flow into southeast Alaska.

00:01:54.220 These three transboundary rivers are the cultural and economic lifeblood of this region,

00:02:00.000 but currently there are no enforceable policies in place to safeguard wild salmon, clean water,

00:02:06.860 or the many jobs and lifeways they support from mining projects upstream.

00:02:12.340 Uniting a diverse coalition from both sides of this international border,

00:02:17.140 the Salmon Beyond Borders campaign follows the path of water

00:02:20.680 that messes the colonial boundaries we've etched into place.

00:02:25.180 Salmon live beyond borders.

00:02:27.340 Pollution knows no bounds.

00:02:29.560 And we too, in our strategic organizing,

00:02:32.240 must build bridges across these critical watersheds and beyond.

00:02:41.880 Okay, so my name is Jill Weitz.

00:02:44.920 I live in Juneau, Alaska,

00:02:47.180 and I work on the Salmon Beyond Borders campaign.

00:02:50.680 which is set to defend and sustain the Taku, Stakin, and Eunuch watersheds.

00:02:57.320 These are shared watersheds that originate in British Columbia and flow into southeast Alaska.

00:03:04.120 And we are tracking more than 12 large-scale open pit mines that are being developed and

00:03:11.400 or are in operation at the headwaters of these rivers. And I think that the best part of the

00:03:19.320 work that I get to do is connect with people throughout Southeast Alaska as well as British

00:03:26.120 Columbia to learn not only about the shared values of wild salmon but also to really get a better

00:03:34.120 understanding of how we want to manage these watersheds now and into the future and what we

00:03:42.040 want these wild iconic places to look like for the generations to come.

00:03:52.280 I grew up in Minnesota on the Mississippi River actually so I grew up spending a lot of time on

00:03:57.720 the water there and lakes throughout Minnesota but I moved up to Juneau 12 years ago and I think

00:04:04.600 evolved like a totally different relationship with not only fishing but fish and obviously

00:04:12.620 everything that fish mean yeah okay so you you came up here 12 years ago you were fishing

00:04:22.120 and then at some point when did it turn to becoming an advocate and working and giving

00:04:30.000 so much of your vital energy to the protection of these fish like where did that how did that

00:04:36.360 happen yeah it started as a kid right like growing up on the Mississippi River my dad comes from a

00:04:43.540 long line of of fishermen pun intended but my dad kind of instilled that like my dad kind of

00:04:52.240 instilled that just that excitement and like interest for being on the water and fish in

00:04:59.140 particular and like on Sundays when we were kids if my mom wasn't around my mom would ask dad to

00:05:05.200 take us to church and he would take us down to the river and we'd pick up trash you know so I think

00:05:10.060 that has like always been part of me and I I was able to guide a lot of trips in northern Minnesota

00:05:18.000 and Canada and and just be outside with people and experience it for myself but then also other

00:05:25.000 people and being around them as they experience nature and wild places so I think it's been that

00:05:31.100 the like conservation ethos I think has been inherent in my life as I think it is in most

00:05:37.480 people in general but I think coming to Alaska and being exposed to just this lifestyle and

00:05:45.240 learning about the traditional and customary ways of how people have lived here for thousands of

00:05:51.540 years and really understanding not only fishing to be this like exciting sport and something that

00:05:59.220 provides sustenance, but really just like part of the fabric of culture. Really, I was able to like

00:06:07.500 just appreciate it beyond a level I ever thought I would. So when I came back to Juneau after

00:06:13.520 studying in Denver, I worked as a compliance and enforcement officer for the Alaska Department of

00:06:20.580 environmental conservation and for about four years I was tasked with inspecting large-scale

00:06:26.620 mines, seafood processing plants, large-scale construction projects all across the state from

00:06:33.780 Prudhoe Bay all the way down to Ketchikan and I saw you know a lot of what was was happening

00:06:40.940 with these projects and and the struggles within the various permitting processes and I just

00:06:48.920 struggled with the fact that I didn't think we were being as effective as we could be in order

00:06:54.780 to actually conserve our resources. Granted, in Alaska, of course, it's a balance about

00:07:00.580 extracting and developing, but also ensuring that there are conservation measures in place so that

00:07:06.720 some of these industries, even the extractive ones, can be managed well and last as long as

00:07:13.540 they are able to to last right so yeah I think through that work I just learned a lot about the

00:07:20.980 way things work in this state but was not satisfied with my ability to kind of create or implement or

00:07:29.620 be part of actual change and so becoming a part of the work for these various conservation measures

00:07:38.860 throughout the state of Alaska has just kind of allowed me to really lean in to advocacy work and

00:07:45.820 bring that knowledge that I learned while working for the state of Alaska into how we ensure that

00:07:53.580 these things are working in some sort of unison, I think was what I felt I could really bring to

00:08:00.640 the table. And I think that I had no idea that starting my work with conservation groups in

00:08:06.880 Alaska would lead me to where I am now but I along the way the last five years of working with the

00:08:12.600 Salmon Beyond Borders campaign have I think evolved an even more amazing understanding

00:08:18.720 and passion for salmon as a as an animal as a wonderful animal and just what it means to

00:08:28.500 so many people and so many different ways of life and living really yeah I'd really love to hear

00:08:35.940 about the years you spent in all of these different sites prudhoe bay i mean whoa i can't

00:08:43.680 believe you were there and and the mining sites i think the fact that you did that work

00:08:50.380 just thinking about the depth of understanding you have at this point from actually doing that

00:08:58.640 work in person I just feel like that gives you so much more expansive breadth of understanding

00:09:06.080 but also I'm really interested to hear like what was that like what were the things you were seeing

00:09:10.500 what were the things that you had power over like what can a governing agency actually tell

00:09:15.900 somebody to do you know like let's just say you made it a you know and I don't know how this works

00:09:21.440 but if you were able to see something that was at a line do you have the power to do something about

00:09:26.260 it and do they actually follow the recommendations or even maybe it's not even a recommendation maybe

00:09:31.640 it's like you must do this and do they even do those things yeah for example I think I would say

00:09:37.200 I spent most of my time at mines and seafood processing plants and I'll focus in on mines

00:09:43.420 just a bit because I think there's a bit more meat to those types of stories right in Alaska

00:09:49.060 a there's a there's a self-reporting requirement right so mines do their monthly reporting on the

00:09:57.080 various water quality parameters for example and so they have their technicians go out and test

00:10:03.200 water quality samples and then they report back to the state and so there has to be some sort of

00:10:10.680 trust there that the agencies are putting into the industry and then it is up to one to maybe

00:10:17.820 three enforcement officers to cover the entire state of Alaska to go out and actually inspect

00:10:24.100 not only the facilities, but the ways in which their technicians are conducting these samples,

00:10:31.160 et cetera. And so I think there's a ton of probability for error in that setup, but it is

00:10:38.200 the way that it is. And I think that, you know, we would issue what were called notices of violation

00:10:45.120 or NOVs, which are kind of like a slap on the wrist of like, you exceeded these parameters

00:10:50.880 and or, you know, you didn't have proper absorbency pads around this one drainage or

00:10:58.100 whatever it might be. And those notices of violation would, you know, pile up and pile

00:11:04.460 up and pile up. And then it would be a compliance violation, which is like the next step up.

00:11:10.440 and then it would get to an issue of of an enforcement action and I prepared a couple of

00:11:17.660 those in my time and would bring them to the commissioner's level at DEC and it was no no no

00:11:26.300 work with them to get in compliance with their permit even though these were like pretty large

00:11:31.480 exceedances and I would be sent back out into the field to work with them to get in compliance with

00:11:37.400 their permit. Meanwhile, I would be sent to a small community in Southeast Alaska to issue

00:11:43.880 a fine, you know, like a $5,000 fine to a mom and pop shop operation that didn't know they had an

00:11:50.500 oil tank underground on the property that they bought. Right. So just a lot, a lot of inequity

00:11:56.220 there. I don't think that it's complete ineffectiveness. I think there's just so much

00:12:02.460 that goes on in Alaska and has you know like so much massive development happens so quickly here

00:12:09.380 and I think we're still trying to sort through how best to kind of mitigate that but also learn

00:12:16.360 from those lessons and the way that we've been operating under these permits and these permitting

00:12:22.160 structures figuring out how to move forward so that we can ensure development and conservation

00:12:28.220 kind of work hand in hand how are you trained to know what to look for or what were you looking for

00:12:35.020 that's a really good question um we were enforcing wastewater discharge permits so anytime like at a

00:12:42.240 mine mining waste comes in contact with water of any kind that's considered wastewater and so there

00:12:49.080 is a proper way of how you channel that store it sample for it process it etc and so we were kind

00:12:55.880 of like checking the boxes to ensure that protective measures were in place and at like

00:13:01.540 seafood processing plants it was anywhere from you know the size of the ground up fish tissue bone

00:13:10.160 skin if it was like meeting the the right size to go through their filtration and it was like

00:13:16.860 climbing down ladders under the docks to make sure they didn't have any straight pipes of their

00:13:21.360 their waste just being flushed out into the ocean it was it was kind of crazy the various things that

00:13:27.700 not only we got to see but that we were looking for and I think that it definitely took a while

00:13:32.860 to figure out not only what to look for but like how and where to look for those things

00:13:38.300 it's crazy we're dealing with pipelines and fisheries and that that's all in the same

00:13:44.200 job jurisdiction right and that there were only like three and a half of us for the entire state

00:13:51.980 of alaska at that time the mining stuff is really intense you know and i and i think about

00:13:58.620 when we had our interview with jacinda mac and how she said mining is really like a wastewater

00:14:03.780 storage project because 90 of what comes out of mine is usually or around 90 is waste and then

00:14:12.080 I think about the tailings ponds right well it's like how are how is a tailings pond really going

00:14:17.920 to hold the waste how I mean it rains how is it actually going to hold I don't understand

00:14:24.460 the logic behind that neither do I tell me when you figure that out okay I think the I mean it's

00:14:31.560 crazy right the just the idea of tailings facilities and especially these large-scale

00:14:37.100 open pit mines like those that we're focusing on in the trans boundary region you know the mines

00:14:43.140 in alaska that i have inspected are like minuscule compared to the projects that we're focusing on

00:14:50.340 in the trans boundary watersheds and for example mount poly like you spoke with jacinda about

00:14:55.860 that same company imperial metals owns and operates the red chris mine which is at the

00:15:01.760 headwaters of the Stikine watershed and that I believe is you know it I can't even think of like

00:15:10.040 the exact number but it is like at least 10 times as large as the Mount Polly tailings facility

00:15:15.980 I've flown over it it's insane just to think of like it is just this massive valley that is a

00:15:22.120 tailings facility storage facility and not only does it not make sense because you're like how

00:15:28.620 do they accommodate for the amount of rainfall and just the like sheer environment that is you

00:15:35.100 know northwest british columbia but these things have to be kept and maintained in perpetuity when

00:15:41.960 they're permitted it is as if these tailings facilities will be managed forever these mines

00:15:48.860 will sometimes only last for up to 20 years right mount poly failed after 17 years these projects

00:15:57.480 are built as if they're like indestructible.

00:16:00.160 And we know that there are reports post Mount Polly

00:16:03.120 that say there will be two every 10 years,

00:16:05.860 if not more, just because of human error

00:16:08.460 and how these structures are built.

00:16:11.760 And the mining industry is notorious

00:16:15.140 for not being required and not choosing

00:16:19.060 to implement the best available technologies

00:16:21.560 or practices to do everything that they can

00:16:23.960 to take the precautionary measures

00:16:26.600 to protect human health and safety and the environment.

00:16:31.000 So I think beyond the fact that it's just like a fascinating thought

00:16:34.360 in an engineer's mind that this will last forever

00:16:37.460 and actually support and sustain not only the tailings waste,

00:16:40.540 but the water as well, is beyond my brain's ability to comprehend.

00:16:46.040 But I think even more than that,

00:16:48.020 it's the fact that we're authorizing these projects to be there forever.

00:16:54.900 And in British Columbia in particular, these mining companies can come through, conduct their operation for 10, 20 years, and or file for bankruptcy and leave.

00:17:08.480 They can just walk away from the project.

00:17:11.280 Then who's responsible to keep up with the tailings storage?

00:17:15.300 It's a lot. I mean, if you look at the province of British Columbia, there are more than 2,000 abandoned mines.

00:17:21.100 And those tailings facilities are abandoned?

00:17:23.340 Abandoned. And you look at projects like the Tulsa Qua Chief Mine that's just in the Taku watershed just over that mountain there. That mine has been abandoned since 1957. It's a tiny mine. It's been leaching acid mine drainage into the Tulsa Qua River, which is a tributary of the Taku River. And it has not been cleaned up.

00:17:43.840 the current owner have filed for bankruptcy and so right now it's in the hands of the British

00:17:50.400 Columbia government and they continue and have been saying for the last at least five years that

00:17:57.080 they have to like sort through this bankruptcy ruling to determine who's going to be responsible

00:18:02.320 for the bill and cleaning this up and we know and we have on record asking the BC ministry officials

00:18:10.740 we know that the british columbia government has the authority to hold the historical owner

00:18:16.040 responsible for the closure and cleanup of this project and the bc government can not only do

00:18:21.920 that for this project but the other 2 000 abandoned projects in british columbia and yet they're not

00:18:27.720 doing it but in instances like mount poly for example there is not adequate bonding put up

00:18:35.680 front by these mining companies. So for that project that failed, you have $40 million worth

00:18:41.840 of taxpayer money going towards the cleanup efforts there. And it's likely what will happen

00:18:47.320 for the Tusca chief mine, because it's what the state of Alaska and Alaskans have been asking for

00:18:52.500 for 60 years is for cleanup of that. And it'll likely be taxpayer dollars. There's a huge

00:18:58.980 problem with the fact that not only is the BC government allowing the mining industry to not

00:19:06.500 be held accountable, but there is no mechanism in place for downstream interests, states, and

00:19:14.120 you know, US citizens to hold accountable the impacts from these projects.

00:19:28.980 In all the trees so tall

00:19:31.460 Round and through the forests to watch the leaves fall

00:19:33.980 Round and through the forests to watch the leaves fall

00:19:36.720 Hey!

00:19:46.560 And I can feel the air in my lungs

00:19:52.920 Leaves as quickly as it comes

00:19:58.320 When you have the power

00:20:08.180 You're scared of the blackout

00:20:11.180 Chasing on the sunshine

00:20:13.720 Till the ends of the earth

00:20:16.180 When you have nothing

00:20:18.980 You've got nothing

00:20:21.800 To lose nothing

00:20:24.420 To feel

00:20:27.080 And the flowers are

00:20:44.620 Ring, ring, ring it in spring

00:20:46.980 Running through the mountains

00:20:48.300 To see what they bring

00:20:49.620 Ring, ring, ring it in spring

00:20:52.280 Running through the mountains

00:20:53.600 To see what they bring

00:20:54.920 Running through the mountains

00:20:56.300 we're not under any illusion that we are going to stop mining whatsoever we we need

00:21:10.580 mines we need them everything that we use is is a product of a mine to some degree or from a mine

00:21:18.580 to some degree right but like we need to one ensure that there is a polluter pays principle

00:21:24.460 If you're going to come in and operate and make money, you are going to ensure that you are applying best available practices and technologies and that there is money put up front from a mining company prior to a project being permitted so that what happens following closure is not left upon people of that land and downstream communities.

00:21:48.120 and i think it's time that we start talking about it and about accountability and about like for

00:21:54.780 example if mining is going to happen as it needs to we need to make sure that the demand so the

00:22:00.480 companies that are producing apple products etc are utilizing material that is coming from

00:22:08.460 mines that are adhering to the highest standards that they can especially when they are being put

00:22:13.660 at the headwaters of large wild salmon rivers and in areas that are very essential and unique for

00:22:23.100 connectivity and conservation of wild places and communities and culture etc when you first said

00:22:30.540 because we need minds there was part of my body that's like no no we don't know you know it's like

00:22:37.180 I so want to believe that we don't need these minds and at the same time like I absolutely have

00:22:43.620 an iPhone and I certainly have an Apple computer and so I'm just as complacent as anybody else in

00:22:50.780 this needing of minds so it's like I really want to believe we don't need minds and I also

00:22:56.100 understand that industry isn't going anywhere tomorrow and so it's important to have these

00:23:01.060 regulations in place but then I want to ask you is it actually possible to have a mind that isn't

00:23:08.420 polluting is that possible not in my knowledge right it's not it's there are going to be impacts

00:23:16.240 to the environment no matter what but I think we have to start asking ourselves where are where are

00:23:23.160 we okay and by okay I mean it's going to be somewhat of a sacrifice right like do we want

00:23:30.140 them to be at the headwaters of major salmon rivers do we want them to be in areas where you

00:23:36.760 know there is geological activity and potential for for tailings disasters to continue etc it's

00:23:43.760 it's starting to ask those questions of what types of mines where and why aren't we holding

00:23:52.460 these mining companies to the highest standard certainly they can afford to apply these best

00:23:58.660 available practices and technologies but they're not being required to do so so we need to start

00:24:04.060 asking these hard questions of our government officials why that is the case and I would

00:24:09.840 submit that it is the mining lobby as you mentioned earlier we are up against giants and

00:24:16.340 again it's not to put a stop to all mining it's ensuring that they are held accountable for their

00:24:23.860 ability to profit hearing that some of these minds are at the headwaters all of them to me

00:24:33.240 are sacred headwaters is it is insanity it's like what the f how could we even consider putting

00:24:39.800 minds in these places of course then i go well it does make sense that there potentially are areas

00:24:46.320 that aren't in headwaters that aren't right near watersheds right but then again what that's kind

00:24:52.880 of like this judgment call on this area is okay to be sacrificed and this area isn't. And in a

00:25:00.040 sense of an ecological sense, I could be like, well, we could justify why that makes sense. And

00:25:05.140 it's also this very challenging value judgment that we're having to place. It's hard. It's hard

00:25:14.140 because there always are those sacrifice zones, sacrifice communities, sacrifice ecosystems,

00:25:19.200 like the solar farms in the desert and oh it's the desert it's the mojave there's nothing here

00:25:25.000 when really there's so much life in the mojave and there's all these endemic species that are

00:25:30.420 being cut out and you know something that i try to sit with a lot of what as a civilization are

00:25:35.860 we willing to sacrifice for these modern conveniences that we know aren't even actually

00:25:40.900 fulfilling us it's it's not something that everybody's now happy because they have a tv

00:25:46.440 and a computer and whatever but I mean that's a whole other conversation so coming back to

00:25:52.400 transboundary issues it seems like in a sense working with transboundary or working as a U.S.

00:26:00.560 citizen fighting against B.C. mines there's something that's kind of what do I want to say

00:26:07.560 it's almost like the U.S. can almost point a finger and be like see Canada you're bad and a

00:26:13.800 side note to that the falseness of bc to me and what the u.s thinks about british columbia and

00:26:20.620 canada in general oh canada canada oh my gosh they're so environmentally beautiful british

00:26:24.860 columbia that's how they market beautiful british columbia and bc oh my gosh they have such a better

00:26:29.780 administration up there and they're so much more environmentally friendly and there is literally

00:26:34.680 this picture painted about how eco-friendly and and forward-thinking canada is yeah and i feel

00:26:42.340 like the U.S. has a lot of U.S. citizens has no effing clue the deregulations that are happening

00:26:47.940 in Canada and British Columbia let alone the tar sand which is the largest industrial

00:26:52.680 oil extraction project in the world right but somehow Canada has a great marketing campaign

00:26:58.860 to make it seem like they're all hunky-dory when really they are just effing up things left and

00:27:03.860 right and I drove through British Columbia to get up here and there are areas that there really are

00:27:09.660 not a lot of people and so there's just no watchdogs there's just nobody around it's out of

00:27:14.940 sight it's out of mind the tar sands northwest british columbia these places where it's kind

00:27:19.660 of a free-for-all for development because no one's there it's northwest british columbia has

00:27:25.880 about 2 000 people living in it whereas just across the border the political border into

00:27:31.500 southeast alaska there's 75 000 people so to some northwest bc is like you know the middle of

00:27:38.420 nowhere, but to us, it's the middle of everything, right? So yeah, I think it's unfortunate that it

00:27:44.100 is that like concept of out of sight, out of mind. It's, you know, a lot of what we're doing

00:27:50.020 with the Salmon Beyond Borders campaign is not putting it as an issue that is the United States

00:27:56.980 versus Canada or Alaska versus British Columbia, but it is that these are shared watersheds and

00:28:02.960 these are shared resources and we have to figure out how we want to manage them going forward right

00:28:09.520 and I think it's going to take all of us in order to bring these places to the periphery of people

00:28:16.860 down south especially that yeah don't have the clear story for for the way especially that bc

00:28:24.280 operates especially in northwest bc they don't have a clue they don't have a clue like the mining

00:28:29.240 industry is marketing northwest british columbia's the golden triangle like there are literally

00:28:34.160 flyers and emails and maps that go out to shareholders and investors that say come join

00:28:40.540 the party of the golden triangle in northwest bc like it's open for development how do we combat

00:28:46.600 that how do we ensure that this land these resources it's it's not a free-for-all it's

00:28:53.740 certainly not a free-for-all for the mining industry there are indigenous communities that

00:28:59.280 you know the british columbia government and the mining companies suggest that they are

00:29:03.960 in consultation with consultation is not consent there are so many so many issues inherent within

00:29:12.560 this transboundary issue beyond just the impacts of mining to to water and salmon right it's about

00:29:18.960 these mining companies coming in and dividing communities and providing two options to folks

00:29:26.220 in communities you either work for the mine or you leave right and it's happening with people

00:29:30.160 our age like younger generations are not staying in their communities because they're either not

00:29:36.540 going to work for the mine and and they've just been so it's been ingrained in their in their

00:29:41.540 minds that if they don't work for the mine they don't have anything to contribute to the community

00:29:46.580 therefore they're leaving and they're they're not there to support elders or or the younger

00:29:52.940 people coming up right so i think there's just so many so many issues that we could dive into but i

00:30:00.340 think again it is just starting these conversations and changing the conversation where it's it's not

00:30:07.860 about jobs and it's not about economy and that mining is the only way to achieve either of those

00:30:14.580 things but really how do we want to manage these shared places these shared environments these

00:30:23.720 these rivers that connect communities and cultures and create a way that we're all able to live here

00:30:31.000 wow well I want to talk about salmon at this point and so we've heard about the mines and I'm sure

00:30:40.340 there's years more to learn about and we've just started scratching the surface. But let's say

00:30:47.360 there's a mining disaster on a headwaters and there's toxic water being poured into these

00:30:53.300 rivers. What happens to salmon and subsequently other species, including humans, that are affected

00:31:01.400 by mining disasters? What are some of the things that start to show up? Well, I mean, it's different,

00:31:07.660 right with the various forms of mining and for example if you look at transboundary mining issues

00:31:14.680 in the British Columbia Montana region there are over a thousand years of legacy mining impacts

00:31:22.260 from coal mines in that watershed where they're seeing not only impacts to water quality but

00:31:29.180 they're actually seeing deformities in fish and birds and they have been for a while right so

00:31:34.480 it's these long-term impacts to water quality that take a while but do accumulate and are now

00:31:44.280 of great concern right you actually have evidence that these contaminants are affecting fish

00:31:51.440 populations as well as bird populations so you know then you move to the mount poly example right

00:31:57.600 where this mine failed sent 6.6 billion gallons of toxic waste into nearby waterways and quenelle

00:32:07.080 lake which is like this pristine spawning ground for wild salmon is now basically like a settling

00:32:13.280 pond for that project and the sockeye return this year was good which was impressive because salmon

00:32:22.900 are quite resilient right but you know and so a lot of people said like well it's it's indicative

00:32:28.760 that you know my even a mining catastrophe like that is not going to significantly impact salmon

00:32:34.540 scientists maintain that it's still too soon to tell long-term impacts from that disaster especially

00:32:40.880 on that particular sockeye run because this is now four years in that same sockeye return

00:32:46.540 but if you think about it in any of these instances for hard rock mining like mont paulie

00:32:52.880 the heavy metals settle in the sediment and therefore remain at the beds of these rivers

00:33:01.080 for a long time no matter what type of cleanup efforts happen there's always going to be

00:33:06.140 the deposit of these heavy metals and so over time that will affect salmon's ability it will

00:33:12.360 over time affect the quality of the habitat and you know in Alaska we have boasted for a long time

00:33:20.100 that we have the best managed fisheries in the world and i would submit that we absolutely have

00:33:25.020 really great fisheries management in most instances but the reason why we have such

00:33:30.480 globally significant salmon population is because we actually have habitat because we haven't

00:33:36.780 destroyed all of the habitat yet right so i think that you know these mining projects whether or

00:33:46.000 not there are catastrophic events, they will inevitably begin just because of their discharge

00:33:51.900 and the slow release of these heavy metals and the accumulation of them over time will impact

00:33:58.180 salmon populations and their ability to return to their spawning and rearing grounds. We know that

00:34:04.360 from other places and how salmon have interacted with mining in other places. You know, we're

00:34:09.740 already seeing declines in our wild salmon populations in Alaska. This year especially

00:34:15.500 was the first year where there were king closures throughout the state as well as into British

00:34:20.460 Columbia. And the Taku and the Stikine and the Eunuch Rivers in particular, the three watersheds

00:34:25.720 that we focused on for the Salmon Beyond Borders campaign, they produce 80% of Southeast Alaska's

00:34:31.680 wild king salmon. Why would we even risk allowing more mines to be developed in these watersheds?

00:34:39.700 And going back earlier to no-go zones and where mines are acceptable, what areas are sacrificial, et cetera, it's not even just one project at the headwaters of each of these watersheds.

00:34:53.660 There are multiple.

00:34:54.920 We're tracking 12 projects.

00:34:58.480 And these aren't small projects.

00:35:00.060 These are large-scale hard rock open pit mining projects.

00:35:03.140 some of these watersheds that have three to four that are in various stages of permitting

00:35:08.980 development or operation so it's where is that question of like how much if we need mining how

00:35:16.680 much mining do we need do we need to have three massive open pit projects at the headwaters of

00:35:24.720 these major salmon rivers that produce 80 percent of our king salmon right it's just it's baffling

00:35:30.940 to me. And I think that though the Alaska administration and our congressional delegation

00:35:37.940 have been supportive, I don't think they're making enough demand of the British Columbia

00:35:42.180 or Canadian federal governments. Why would we allow for this to happen without having

00:35:48.840 enforceable protections or financial assurances at play? I mean, money doesn't matter if you wipe

00:35:54.680 out a fishery in my opinion right like commercial fishermen absolutely there should be you know some

00:36:02.040 response because that is their livelihood but like beyond that the people that live here and the the 1.00

00:36:07.480 indigenous people of these places it would just wipe out a way of life and you can't put a price 1.00

00:36:13.000 tag on that. 1.00

00:36:43.000 Fresh set free in the belly of a condor.

00:36:54.000 Mind at peace in the roots and rain.

00:37:13.000 So the only question now

00:37:18.220 Is how to ask the meantime

00:37:24.300 When there's dark and noisy age

00:37:29.480 There is howling at my door

00:37:35.180 Granaries of wealth

00:37:43.000 Fame and reputation

00:37:46.020 Sets supposedly unguarded

00:37:51.600 On a nearby shore

00:37:56.880 And a fearsome reigning party

00:38:02.640 Could be easily assembled

00:38:08.120 They were just required

00:38:13.780 A little sacrifice of souls

00:38:19.340 Forget to live

00:38:24.540 Well, I wonder then if the U.S. and B.C. governments,

00:38:31.520 Canadian governments,

00:38:32.440 basically think that mining is a more profitable industry

00:38:37.680 than commercial fishing.

00:38:40.000 You would think that.

00:38:41.980 That's seemingly the trend, absolutely.

00:38:44.560 That that's what they value more.

00:38:46.160 They value the opportunity for development of mines

00:38:51.100 more than they value the sustainability of salmon runs.

00:38:55.720 It's evident that there's bigger immediate profit

00:38:59.220 that can come from these mines,

00:39:00.980 whereas you have a sustainable resource like salmon

00:39:04.220 and the fisheries and the well-managed industry that it is

00:39:08.640 versus this super extractive, destructive industry

00:39:12.780 that can come in, totally exploit not only a place,

00:39:19.000 but people within that place, and then pack up and leave.

00:39:24.060 So one thing you had said is that one reason why,

00:39:29.120 you know maybe the main reason why the fisheries programs are good here is because there is

00:39:35.800 habitat for the salmon to come home to and spawn in but I also have heard this year up and down

00:39:41.980 southeast into even Prince William Sound that the salmon runs are collapsing this year king

00:39:50.060 silvers pinks it just the numbers aren't coming back like you had said the kings

00:39:55.800 the king openers were closed early what do you think about that like what do things happening

00:40:02.440 I think there are so many things happening but with that I'm kind of tired of hearing

00:40:11.300 managers say that that there are so many things happening we don't know right and so my response

00:40:17.820 to that is like what do we know and like why aren't we putting some of those pieces together

00:40:24.140 we don't know yet what's happening to our wild population certainly we know hatcheries have a

00:40:31.000 part of it the blob has a part of it you know ocean conditions absolutely like there are so

00:40:37.280 many things happening so why wouldn't we be taking precautionary measures to one maybe not introduce

00:40:44.760 fish farming into Alaska and two we should be precautionary to ensure that the habitat that

00:40:52.660 we do have is conserved and maintained and therefore ensuring that we have adequate

00:40:58.260 protections in place within our rivers that are the place where we get our salmon from

00:41:06.120 yeah I think it's it's a lot of things I'm not a scientist but I really do know that there's a lot

00:41:12.340 of concern and there's a lot of resources going into trying to figure out what some of these

00:41:18.720 pieces at play are and i think in the interim we need to be doing everything we can to ensure

00:41:24.400 proper management not only of the fish themselves but their habitat and how much of your work like

00:41:30.640 do you guys outline or if you do like long-term economic relationship of like maintained salmon

00:41:39.240 versus mining like it just seems so backwards ass that we like do all these things that make

00:41:44.920 quick money and i'm just wondering like how much if there are people that are number crunching and

00:41:50.040 like what that looks like yeah so i mean that is like that's the case that you have to make for

00:41:55.080 any conservation ask is like you have to apply the economics especially in alaska right and so

00:42:00.860 we've invested a lot of resources into economic studies and determining what even these three

00:42:07.920 transboundary rivers provide and produce for the southeast economy and just the like salmon

00:42:14.440 fisheries alone from those systems and the associated like you know family permit holders

00:42:21.220 etc just these systems we're not including like the amount of money from processors seafood

00:42:27.040 processors etc but like just those rivers alone it's a significant portion of the billion dollar

00:42:33.500 fishery that is Southeast Alaska, right? And when you start to put those economic values,

00:42:39.900 like $48 million just from the Taku, Stikine, and Eunuch, and then the subsequent like permit

00:42:46.180 holders and what their income is and what that adds to the bigger numbers, et cetera, it's,

00:42:51.440 that's where you get the attention of elected officials, right? And so it is, it's such an

00:42:58.220 integral part of understanding the economic benefits both from mining and from fisheries

00:43:03.420 and how that money is you know kept in region and dispersed outwardly and I think it's really

00:43:09.800 interesting so we have that and we use that within our in our messaging and kind of as leverage as to

00:43:15.940 why these matters are so significant but I think what's really interesting and with all the various

00:43:22.860 issues related to development and salmon habitat protection etc is you have a lot of the industries

00:43:30.780 saying you know if we are trying to conserve or protect salmon habitat we're gonna like

00:43:36.540 destroy jobs we're gonna destroy the Alaska economy where I think it's really interesting

00:43:42.860 not only in Alaska in BC as well these mines the employees at these mining operations are

00:43:52.100 not local, you know, like in Juneau, there are two mines in Juneau, where I think predominantly

00:43:57.560 there are a lot of local employees, like a lot of Juneau residents. But if you look at projects up in

00:44:03.180 rural northern Alaska, like Red Dog Mine, or if you look at these projects in British Columbia,

00:44:09.640 you know, I'm sitting on the airplane with these guys that fly up for two weeks.

00:44:16.120 And, you know, I see them in Seattle when I'm on my way home, and they're coming from Texas.

00:44:20.160 you know they come up here they work on the slope for two weeks and then they leave and they take

00:44:25.020 their money elsewhere right so like really how many jobs and what economic impact do some of

00:44:34.060 these big development projects really actually contribute to the long-term prosperity of our

00:44:39.540 state it's just I don't think they make a sound argument in that that's what I talked about with

00:44:46.100 Washington leaders last week it's like they're putting so much money into recovery right now

00:44:51.560 and why would the state of Alaska like want to go down that track of like losing it so that we

00:44:58.420 just are like doing everything we can to try to get it back it's not thinking long term whatsoever

00:45:03.860 you know and if we want to remain this great state that is a salmon state we need to be doing

00:45:12.340 everything we can to ensure that we still have strength in that resource and that that's what

00:45:18.780 sets us aside from the rest of the world actually you know that's what makes us unique and what

00:45:25.040 gives us a globally significant industry that is renewable that does sustain hundreds and

00:45:34.120 thousands of families in Alaska, generations.

00:45:39.340 You know, it's an easy one for me,

00:45:41.840 but not everybody sees that.

00:46:04.120 Thank you.

00:46:34.120 I mean it's really easy to just feel like so depressed and depleted after having some of

00:46:47.420 these conversations right and I think yeah it's it's daunting to think about business operating

00:46:55.240 as it is and has been for so long and how do you conquer that and how do you have other voices be

00:47:03.000 heard? How do you change the conversation? And I would say that at the end of the day, the reason

00:47:09.020 that I personally keep doing this work is because I think that amidst the constant battles and

00:47:15.140 challenges, I think that there is so much opportunity for change and for collaborations

00:47:22.600 and for people to be talking about shared values and how we, how and why we value the things that

00:47:30.940 we do so I think there is like a positive twist that I like to think about at least in the sense

00:47:37.800 of like we're connecting with people because of the rivers that connect our places and what they 1.00

00:47:43.860 provide for us and through all of these catastrophes and trauma that indigenous communities

00:47:54.000 have suffered through for hundreds of thousands of years.

00:47:58.260 I feel like there's sort of an approach at a pinnacle point

00:48:04.140 where indigenous voices are being heard.

00:48:08.580 And I would submit that they're not being heard enough,

00:48:11.940 but I think they're getting louder.

00:48:13.760 And I think that as many people of the general public

00:48:18.600 that can start asking these questions of not only our government

00:48:22.240 and not only industry but investors and shareholders of these companies like why and how and why are we not holding them accountable

00:48:32.020 and to the highest standards if they are going to potentially wipe out communities and economies and wild species of animals

00:48:42.360 that provide so much sustenance for life why aren't they not required to implement the best

00:48:53.640 available practices and technologies etc so I think people are starting it's slow but people

00:49:00.100 are starting to get momentum and I would submit there is a movement that is happening and it is

00:49:07.160 just continuing to like work collectively on the constant grind that that is needed

00:49:13.800 you have to you have to put a positive twist like you have there has to be because otherwise 0.93

00:49:22.980 like what the fuck are we all doing right 0.66

00:49:37.160 Thanks for listening to another episode of For the Wild podcast. 0.97

00:49:41.000 I'm production team member Andrew Storrs.

00:49:44.100 The music you heard today was from Eliza Edens, Bird by Snow, and Treya Lamb.

00:49:50.480 I'd like to thank our host and founder, Ayanna Young, as well as the rest of our production team,

00:49:56.360 Aiden McRae, Carter Lou McElroy, Hannah Wilton, Francesca Glassbell, Aaron Wise, Erica Ekrem, and Melanie Younger.

00:50:07.160 if you enjoy today's conversation please rate us on itunes or wherever else you get your podcast

00:50:19.220 if you'd like to stay up to date with our projects and offerings

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00:50:37.160 Thank you.

00:51:07.160 Thank you.

For The Wild - April 01, 2020

JILL WEITZ on Salmon Beyond Borders ⧸165

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