00:00:57.760Josefina Skarik is a Sami politician with a background in law.
00:01:02.700She is the general manager of Siti Jaringe, a Sami language and cultural center in Norway.0.75
00:01:10.760Skarik has been a member of the Sami parliament in Sweden since 2013 and has held office as its former vice president.
00:01:19.240Indigenous rights, especially connecting to land and language rights, are key issues that she is passionate about.
00:01:25.620Her work involves highlighting the diversity of the Sami people and striving for human and indigenous rights for all Sami, regardless of gender, sexuality, disability, or cultural background.
00:01:38.760well Yosefina this is so amazing to connect with you because it has been years in the making
00:01:50.720I remember meeting you at COP21 in Paris which was feels like a lifetime ago when I was with
00:01:59.000IEN and Jade Begay so this is just such an incredible moment to be connecting with you
00:02:05.800in this way so many years later. Thank you. Yeah, it's really, really nice to at least hear you
00:02:12.460again. Yes, I'm very excited. And I'd like to ask you about your ancestral homelands of the Sápmi.
00:02:25.780I'm wondering if you can situate us in the sights, smells, and sounds of this vast traditional
00:02:33.880territory absolutely our traditional territory is located in what's now the northern parts of
00:02:43.080norway sweden finland and the cola peninsula in russia so it's a large part of it is in the arctic
00:02:51.640it's a kind of harsh climate with long winters and this beautiful midnight sun during the days
00:03:01.480The smells would be clean water rushing down the mountain slopes, the deep forests, cloudberries, reindeer, moose, fish and birds, and all of these kinds of sounds.
00:03:20.480at least in the unexploited parts because we're really threatened by industries and
00:03:29.080just land grabbing and theft going on my favorite time of the year is in the fall
00:03:37.920when it's moose hunting season and it's not because I'm particularly bloodthirsty I'm actually
00:03:45.620a bad hunter. But what I love about it is that I get to follow my elders around in a way that
00:03:54.580doesn't really happen any other time of the year. I come from a background of Samis that have
00:04:02.140been hunting and fishing. And so our culture is tied to those traditions.
00:04:09.100and when I move across the land with my elders they whisper stories to me that they are reminded
00:04:19.080of when they cross a certain creek or when we move through a valley and we see that rock
00:04:25.520and I've come to realize that every tiny little place rocks and creeks and valleys and lakes
00:04:36.260and shorelines and trees even have stories connected to them. They've got names and the stories can be about different aspects.
00:04:49.260It can be about spirituality. My elders teach me about how animals move, how they think.
00:05:00.260And a lot of the stories are connected to previous generations.
00:05:07.260I know how to imitate people that have been dead a long time before I was born.
00:05:14.260Just because when we move across that place, the elders tell me that story.
00:05:23.260And with the tradition of storytelling, they can put themselves into that person.
00:05:34.720So the Sámi language hasn't been a written language for very long.
00:05:41.660Instead of putting things in books, we put them into the land.
00:21:07.580please go slow urgency is an illusion created to break us apart
00:21:22.200yosefina it's really disheartening to hear this but yeah i'm also glad that you're sharing
00:21:33.160that that's what's happening there and I see these troubles with green energy happening all
00:21:40.100over the world especially to indigenous communities and how impacted they are with these green or
00:21:47.700renewable energy projects and there's so many sacrifice zones that are not being highlighted
00:21:55.080enough and I'm really I'm glad that you brought that up and yeah I you know we're hearing more
00:22:03.440and more stories of how also changing winter landscapes are making lifeways non-viable
00:22:10.780and across Sopmi snow is falling before the ice can even set making reindeer husbandry increasingly
00:22:20.580difficult. So what exactly is transpiring during these winter months? And how does it fit in with
00:22:27.520the larger story of changing landscapes, and the impact that that has on traditional livelihoods?
00:22:34.560We saw climate change coming many years ago, just as you say, and especially in the winter.
00:22:42.440the rivers used to be our highways where you would move easily during the winter time
00:22:54.900and you'd know because it was traditionally told from generation to generation all of this
00:23:00.940knowledge passed down on where it was safe to move how you think what you should do
00:23:06.880to keep yourself safe, to keep the reindeer safe.
00:23:12.940And it's getting less and less relevant
00:23:15.600because climate is becoming more and more unpredictable.
00:23:20.940So we're kind of, like many indigenous peoples,
00:23:24.720the first to be impacted by climate change
00:23:28.580and also the ones that are, as you said,
00:23:31.880suffering from climate mitigation efforts.
00:23:36.880Yeah, no, it's really important to hear. And yeah, I'm just thinking about the reindeers and the windmills and the ice and the changing climate. There's a lot that's impacting your homelands that it just feels so important for us to hear this information. And I appreciate it.
00:23:59.460And countries like Norway and Sweden have begun to look at reconciliation, primarily by setting up commissions to begin addressing the reality that Nordic countries have used the Sami to test scientific theories, have forcibly sterilized hundreds of Sami women, refused to teach the language, and as I understand it, continue to negate indigenous history in schools across Scandinavia.
00:24:26.760However, I think most of us can acknowledge that time and time again, commissions show up empty-handed.
00:24:34.420So I'd like to ask you, what does proper reconciliation look like for a colonial project that has not only extracted people from the land in the pursuit of material wealth,
00:24:46.760But specifically, how does climate change and the reality that traditional homelands are changing need to be factored into these conversations as well?
00:24:57.020There is such a large need, huge need for more knowledge about what the states have done to us and for people to be able to tell their stories and for it to be written down so that no one can deny what happened.
00:25:20.140And especially before the older generation, the ones who, I would say, as a generation suffered the most before they pass away and lose that possibility for some kind of proper apology or something, it would never be enough.
00:25:40.340but just to see that it's recognized. Reconciliation can never be anything without actual action.
00:25:54.260We need to have our rights recognized. The states need to stand up for what they've done
00:26:03.060and to stop repeating what they they're still doing but as you say we've seen again and again
00:26:14.520that they are not strong enough and I think it's so important that we focus on the mandate
00:26:22.260of the truth commission that we truly try to use the knowledge that has been built up
00:26:32.260of what has worked and what has not worked and build relationships with other peoples that have
00:26:41.300had truth commissions or they're working on them. So concretely reconciliation here I'd say would
00:26:49.880be to recognize Sámi ownership rights or at the very least rights to use of traditional lands
00:27:01.120and continue our traditional practices and also to establish in other places or as a whole
00:27:10.860a practice of viewing land and using land, living with the land that is sustainable
00:27:20.240and that is rooted in respect and rooted in recognizing that generations to come
00:27:29.960will also live here it's not about what looks good at the next election it's about what looks
00:27:38.780good several generations ahead yeah i'm yeah just sitting with that thank you and
00:27:50.420i understand that one of the greatest threats to sami lifeways is mining especially with sweden
00:27:59.460emerging as a potential mining center for all of Europe. And, you know, when we think about iron,
00:28:06.020copper, or gold mining, we don't immediately think of Sweden. But in the past few years,
00:28:12.120Sweden has granted roughly 500 mining exploration permits. So what is the current status of mining
00:28:20.760in Sápmi, and what resources is Sweden looking at to extract, and for what purpose?
00:28:29.460As you say, Sweden is really trying to take the role of Europe's number one mining country, and they're already producing or taking out 98% of Europe's total iron ore production.
00:28:49.040And it's mined in our traditional territories, in Sami traditional territories.
00:28:55.400And there's nothing of that is going back to the Sami people.
00:29:01.200So it's a lot of iron and copper and all kinds of minerals, gold.
00:29:06.840I mean, if they're trying to argue that they're mining for things that people need,
00:29:13.820sometimes they say well everyone around the globe deserves to have a refrigerator so we need to
00:29:22.140mine for minerals so we can build that well there's zero need for gold we have more than enough
00:29:33.080already up on land but they're still still pushing for that and it's so easy to see that it's
00:30:08.880even though there's so many mines there's so much forest industries hydropower windmill parks
00:30:16.680but the money is going south it's going into the state and the state is very bad it's giving back
00:30:24.780or it's going into multinational companies so there's a lot of of speculation as i said with
00:30:33.220with the mining that it's just there so there's been a lot of bankruptcies that has left our
00:30:40.420territory with poisoned places that the state has to to clean up for hundreds of millions
00:30:50.260and they are really slow at doing that as well so
00:30:55.380So what we're seeing is that we're being able to join hands with environmental organizations and activists from all over the world and forming these strong alliances together also with majority Swedish populations that are living in these territories.
00:31:24.420so we're we're building a stronger and stronger resistance um i i truly think
00:31:33.220that we're moving towards a better future but we need everyone in this struggle
00:31:39.780absolutely yeah and hearing about the impacts of mining across
00:31:48.860Sopmi is yet another reminder that Big Green, when rolled out, comes at the expense of indigenous
00:31:56.620sovereignty. And in some ways, I see it as another manifestation of the belief that we can transcend
00:32:03.660the world through colonial endeavors like religion, capital, and now techno-fixes. So, yeah, many think
00:32:13.540that we can absolve ourselves from current global afflictions
00:32:17.800through green technology, but electric cars and
00:32:21.540hydropower are not even closely synonymous with true
00:32:25.320sustainable living. These, too, are colonial interests.
00:32:30.400So I'd like to pose the question to you,
00:32:33.240what does sustainable living look like at this point in time?
00:32:40.900And because I can see in my own life that I'm also overusing the world's resources.
00:32:50.160It's really difficult for us, I think, in the western part of the world to recognize what we need to do.
00:33:01.320But in the small scale, what I would want to share with everyone who's listening is, for instance, something that I think a small thing that I think is beautiful within the Sami culture is a high status thing is to be able to create your own traditional outfit.
00:33:27.660If you can do that, if you're skilled enough, then you're really, really highly regarded.
00:33:37.740Well, I think that in the majority society, to make your own clothes is looked down on.
00:39:32.980that they should have stepped up to.0.99
00:39:38.520So what we've done within the Sámi people
00:39:43.460is to single out certain strategic cases1.00
00:39:49.400and take them to court. And recently there was this case, the Gerias case, that the Sami people won.0.69
00:39:59.160And the case is slightly problematic in some senses because it doesn't include all Samis.
00:40:05.960It can even be bad for some Samis. But as a recognition of our rights,
00:40:12.840I think it's a good foundation. We needed a win. And for many and for traditional livelihoods, especially reindeer herding, it's a step forward.
00:40:27.840And that we won in court, in the highest court in Sweden, has scared the state.
00:40:36.840So that now they're actually announcing that they are going to change the main law that regulates our rights and change it in a positive way.
00:40:49.840But again, it's really difficult to have any hopes because who are they listening to?
00:40:56.840to. There's of course a difference within the parties. There are some parties in Swedish
00:41:03.560parliament that are what we would perhaps call Sami positive but they're the smaller ones.
00:41:14.680So the trouble with it, what's happening with the courts and what we're doing there1.00
00:41:21.880or what some Samis are doing there0.93
00:41:25.540is that court decisions are black and white solutions
00:42:40.340I'm thinking about this next question in context to our previous conversation
00:42:45.980on the centrality of reindeer and winter.
00:42:50.240And in preparing for this interview, I read that the Sami language is so advanced
00:42:55.320when it comes to describing ancestral homelands and kin
00:42:58.420that it's one of the most studied languages in the world today.
00:43:02.860As a fervent protector of language, can you speak to your work to protect the Sami language and its role in worldmaking, not just in terms of it being studied, but in its living presence as a language spoken amongst each other in servitude of more than human kin and the land?
00:43:23.740The Sami language is so diverse. It truly reflects our culture. It is the world view that is being transmitted, that you get through the language.
00:43:46.580So, for instance, how you say, it's not just in English and in Swedish, you'd say I and you and you'd say we as a whole group or maybe just we as two and them some way.
00:44:15.720But when you, in the Sámi language, you'd also have a possibility to use a certain word that is for us too, to describe the closeness of, it's just me and you, and we're doing something together.
00:44:34.800and also in many other ways there's a for instance in the south sami language
00:44:47.520which you recently published an article that that is actually the language with the most
00:44:54.440words for snow in the world and it's not symbolically it doesn't that hasn't developed
00:45:05.220by accident it's because you we've lived and had to survive in this very harsh environment doing
00:45:16.020very specialized yet adaptable practices, livelihoods that were dependent on nature resources