00:10:48.420There's a demand for the recognition of indigenous rights and self-determination.
00:10:52.160But what are those things about? What is it really coming down to when you hear these demands? For me, the way I see it is that these are demands for consent. These are demands for control and self-determination of what happens to our lands, our air, and most importantly, or I guess just as important, our bodies.
00:11:12.300and it's a demand for us to allow us and give us indigenous peoples that space to continue our
00:11:23.000practice of living in balance with our ecosystems as best as we can be and our identities and how
00:11:30.560we navigate the identities of masculinity and femininity is a core component of that
00:11:35.560this society the mainstream society that we battle against does exactly what you what the
00:11:41.200quote talks about is it severes us it makes us decide which line what which side of the line do
00:11:46.540we want to do you want to stand on and you have to make a hard decision between that binary
00:11:51.260and a lot of communities are saying f that no we we will decide we decide what is the metrics of
00:11:59.960our identity as human beings and it's on our terms to hell with your binary codes like we will we we
00:12:07.280will take control of and take power of that i really there's so many things on my mind about
00:12:12.580this i was in a group discussion some years ago there was like a plan a panel at this large
00:12:19.680gathering called bioneers down in the san francisco bay area and it was about toxic masculinity and0.97
00:12:26.040it was facilitated the discussion was facilitated by eve ensler the playwright for the vagina
00:12:31.080of monologues and we were talking about there was a question about who suffers from toxic
00:12:39.960masculinity and and imbalanced patriarchy you know for some folks the immediate response is well it's
00:12:46.700you know those that are those identified as female you know folks women and children
00:12:52.420is as the primary victims if you could say but in in the group discussion what we kind of got
00:13:00.340came to is like no we all suffer we are all victims of it and and something that we we always
00:13:08.240that's really painful as men to admit is that in some ways we suffer the greatest of all because
00:13:17.260we are what we are doing as we continue that path of saying this is what a man means a man means to
00:13:23.320be violent a man means to be uh domineering a man means this this and that all these things that are
00:13:29.240in line with toxic masculinity is that we are completely and utterly cutting off our ability
00:13:36.620to be whole humans and connect with our feminine our femininity you know we are completely closing
00:13:44.220ourselves off from being the complete human beings that we were born and created to be
00:13:48.820when we are hurt we're we're taught not to cry when we are angry or frustrated or scared or
00:13:57.440terrified we are taught as men that we only have a limited set of tools in which to respond
00:14:03.420and oftentimes that those tools are self-destructive or destructive to those around us
00:14:10.120and that we as human beings have been gifted a wider range of other tools that are seen quote
00:14:15.440unquote as as the feminine side of it that can be regenerative and healing and restorative
00:14:21.160and yet every one of us has access to all of these so that's like when i do the work that i do when i
00:14:29.500talk about the you know the issue of being more accountable as men when i talk about um us
00:14:34.640smashing the patriarchy my target audience is fellow men in in saying look like you are
00:14:45.200we're destroying ourselves we are less than because we choose to promote this system
00:14:53.260that is uh that is destroying us gosh i resonated so much with what you just said and
00:15:04.080the confusion around what it is to even be a quote man or um you know who are the people
00:15:14.060that are suffering and of course it's women and children and um and and men and non-binary people
00:15:22.200everybody suffers the world suffers it's not we're all victims to it and so I'm I have a lot of
00:15:29.500thoughts in my head right now one I'm thinking about how male fragility plays a huge role in
00:15:36.080understanding how peril our relationships are you know women and non-binary people and children
00:15:42.640have had to adjust and adopt and navigate around male fragility and toxic masculinity which I feel
00:15:51.420like go hand in hand without many men even really ever having to interrogate it themselves which
00:15:58.460then raises this question of how entitlement fits into the conversation the entitlement that many
00:16:04.420men especially white men are born with are born into conditioned to and then at the same time I
00:16:10.440think I'm finding that more and more men are awakening to feelings of uncertainty, like you
00:16:15.540were speaking of, you know, that they themselves are not even sure what it means to be a man
00:16:21.880in these current troubled times. So I wonder, when it comes to re-envisioning
00:16:30.080masculinity, a healthy masculinity, what does that look like to you?
00:16:36.320I think first and foremost, this is a great question. Great question, by the way. I think that first and foremost, a major part of it is accountability. It's accountability and emotional intelligence.
00:16:49.880like it is a matter of us as as as individuals to be accountable for how we engage and interact
00:16:59.520with our relatives on this planet and and and in order to do so that we have to raise
00:17:04.200our emotional intelligence about ourselves we are not challenged as men in this current society
00:17:10.720mainstream society does not challenge men to understand why they're doing the things that
00:17:16.080they do. It does not challenge men to ask themselves, who are they accountable to? It
00:17:23.320does not challenge men to be aware of how they are contributing to the suffering or the inconvenience
00:17:31.180or the distraction of other folks. It does not, the mainstream society does not challenge us
00:17:35.780whatsoever in those regards. And so what we have to do is respond to that and challenge ourselves
00:17:40.280to question all those things and there's something about it is like i was talking to a couple of
00:17:46.920folks about this there's a there's an interesting dynamic here if i go in and this is all based off
00:17:54.220of experience if i go and publicize i'm going to give a talk about toxic masculinity in minneapolis
00:18:00.200minnesota and publicize and put flyers all around guaranteed or i'm it's a good assumption that the
00:18:07.800vast majority of the people that will come to that talk will be women or women identified and the
00:18:14.540question that asks is why why is that and it just speaks to this terrible truth that
00:18:23.520to exist in this society to to live in this society women's safety and health is dependent
00:18:31.540on them knowing men better than men know themselves you have to know how a man thinks you have to know
00:18:39.620how a man what motivates a man you have to know about the the dangers a man poses to your well
00:18:45.280being you have to know them more than they know themselves in order to ensure your safety in this
00:18:50.080world and so there there's a vested interest to know about that and that's why you i feel like
00:18:56.000you often see that men don't have that interest there's not that we're not required to know
00:19:00.740ourselves because our safety is not dependent on our identity and the parallel there is the same
00:19:07.180as community like there's a there's a distinct parallel to that to and i might go off topic here
00:19:12.220to communities of color right we always talk about like communities of color know the law
00:19:17.180better than sometimes the law itself you know our our black relatives black folks out there
00:19:22.640know the law or know the police procedure sometimes better than other folks because our
00:19:28.940lives depend on it in very in many cases to know it better as people of color we need we need to
00:19:34.680know white folks more than white folks know themselves because our very lives and survival
00:19:39.680depends on it and the same can be said about the dynamics between men and women and that's
00:19:46.860terrifying that's a terrifying truth and i think that as men more men have to be accountable to
00:19:54.280that and really understand that and so when it when we talk about what does healthy masculinity
00:19:59.700look like it comes really the first like the first steps towards that is developing emotional
00:20:04.200intelligence to interrogate oneself's behavior uh in relationships yeah and and i think there's
00:20:11.980a whole other range of things i could add to it but i i'll stop there for the moment wow that's so
00:20:18.740deep to think that non-identifying men um or women non-binary people children have to know
00:20:30.440men better than men know themselves to stay safe and how that is so parallel to communities of
00:20:37.920color and white people i mean that is a really really deep insight and i'm so appreciative of
00:20:43.120that and yeah as we get deeper into this conversation i'd love to hear what else comes
00:20:47.560up for you around healthy masculinity and you know when I think about toxic masculinity it's
00:20:52.860it's really so much more than just immediate violence or abuse or assault in the private
00:20:58.940sphere you know it's ultimately about power and control and so while this thought is of course
00:21:04.920nothing new it would feel amiss to not discuss the patriarchal assaults on earth as being akin
00:21:12.420the violence perpetuated against women. So I'm wondering if you could elaborate a little bit on
00:21:18.280the convergences between these assaults as someone who is trying to unravel toxic masculinity and
00:21:25.480who is also a part of a campaign that is completely against the non-consensual extraction
00:21:30.720of resources from earth. Yeah. My good sister, Candy White, who is from the three affiliated
00:21:39.640tribes in North Dakota. She's my co-conspirator. She's my co-worker, my colleague at Indigenous
00:21:46.300Environmental Network. She always talks about how Mother Earth, the land, is the first body.
00:21:55.380It's the first body for all of us. It is the origin for all life on this planet. And it is also
00:22:01.900the first body to be trespassed, to be pillaged, to be raped. It is the first body to experience0.93
00:22:08.220sexual violence of this extractive economy and capitalism, and that we as the children
00:22:16.200experience that trauma in very distinct ways as a result. And there's a distinct relationship
00:22:25.280between the sexual violence that we see perpetrated upon Mother Earth and the sexual0.99
00:22:28.720violence we see in our communities, especially those communities that are located at these
00:22:32.820zones of extraction of resource extraction and the stories there's so many stories out there
00:22:39.760that are parallel that are just exact mirrors of each other whether they're in the amazon or
00:22:47.620they're in arctic or you're in north dakota or you're in california it's it just shows you that
00:22:52.960this entire system is predicated upon the exploitation and the violence against communities0.74
00:23:03.840of color for the accumulation of wealth or capitalism and it's no wonder that it's just
00:23:12.360i guess it's it's clear as day like there's no question why in places like the bakken oil fields
00:23:18.640in North Dakota, where it's the current economic boom for the fracking industry in the United
00:23:23.520States, is also one of the places of highest instances of sexual violence in the country.
00:23:29.380Like, they go hand in hand. So the call into question toxic masculinity, to call into question
00:23:35.440our relationship to gender identities, is also to call into question the current economic system
00:23:41.840overall is to call into question the system that perpetuates sexual violence and gender violence
00:23:49.540all across the board and so it is truly the struggle to to dismantle and smash the patriarchy
00:23:58.540is a decolonial approach we're talking about decolonization that is what this is really
00:24:05.880coming down to. Indigenous people, shine your light, we are equal. I remember the days when
00:24:17.740our prayers were illegal. I remember the days when being Indian was lethal. Yeah, we had a rough1.00
00:24:28.660past, but get ready for the sequel. Get ready for the glorious comeback of our people.
00:24:35.880oh yeah rise up all you warriors of love all you answers to the prayers of our ancestors
00:24:44.040from above i can feel it in my heart can you feel it in your blood i can hear the
00:24:49.440seventh fire calling us to wake up wake up all nations rise rise up cause now's your time
00:24:58.940we don't have to hide anymore cause now's the time all nations rise rise up cause now's your time
00:25:14.060we don't have to hide anymore cause now's the time we had a really incredible interview with
00:25:24.680Candy many moons ago, but she shared in detail the inherent sexual abuse and violence that comes
00:25:31.600with the establishment of man camps, which you had mentioned, you know, these places of extraction.0.55
00:25:37.400It feels only right to mention that the vast majority of the time, the crimes that contribute
00:25:42.520to the growing number of missing and murdered indigenous women are committed by non-native men.0.59
00:25:48.140So I'm wondering, what does it mean to unpack toxic masculinity, say, in your own community, while facing another threat driven by settlers who greatly contribute to the statistics that predict that one in three Native women will be assaulted before she turns 18?
00:26:09.740Can you, I guess, can you, I guess, rephrase the question or repeat it for me?
00:26:15.060Yeah, sure. So like I was saying in this previous interview we had with Candy, she talks about abuse and violence in the man camps. And I wanted to mention that so much of the violence in these man camps are perpetuated by non-native men.
00:26:32.000so i'm wondering how do you unpack toxic masculinity in your own community you know your
00:26:39.520own community or communities that you work in while at the same time having to deal with the
00:26:45.460threats driven by settlers who contribute to this violence against indigenous women so it's like
00:26:54.040in a sense it's having to deal with two forms of toxic masculinity toxic masculinity in your
00:27:00.240own community and then the wider settler community and and the interaction between the two yeah
00:27:07.740it's a struggle i mean to be completely honest it is a struggle um and i guess to further
00:27:15.800recognize is that i as an identified man a self-identified man how i struggle with that
00:27:22.260is nowhere compared to those that identify as women in our society because it literally affects
00:27:28.380their lives and it really just encourages us it motivates us and it necessitates for us1.00
00:27:37.780to connect the dots to make our movement that we're seeing right now this movement of movements
00:27:44.700this social movement this this struggle to resist to stand up and fight back that we have to make
00:27:49.740it as intersectional as possible we have to really connect the dots between the struggles in order to
00:27:55.820really effectively build a better world for ourselves and so what it does is that when it
00:28:02.000when you see it from that perspective that what's happening in the bakken oil fields is no different
00:28:06.940than what's happening down in the the frack zone the fracking zones of the chaco canyon region of
00:28:11.900new mexico it's no different than what you're seeing in the some of the violence that we're
00:28:16.180seeing against water protectors who are fighting the bayou bridge pipeline down louisiana where
00:28:20.160we're seeing women indigenous women being attacked for defending the land it's no different than just
00:28:25.740almost every corner of this country where you know we're seeing sexual violence and gender
00:28:31.520violence occur that that this is a systemic issue that we have to approach and that with a big
00:28:37.200picture here so in a way it just it motivates me it says like okay our struggles are parallel
00:28:44.320we are united in this struggle therefore i have more allies in this fight than i thought i had
00:28:49.920I have more tools in this struggle than I thought I have because we are everywhere.
00:28:55.360Those of us who are fighting and standing up and resisting.
00:43:52.060If you are a perpetrator, there's a banishment procedure where the community banishes you.
00:43:57.220But a couple years ago, there was this whole conversation about like, all right, what about men who are accused of sexual harassment, but for whatever reasons, the court system is not able to charge them?
00:44:09.760you know what about these instances where we know men are like you know these are0.97
00:44:13.880asshole guys that are just asshole guys i don't know how else to word it but0.99
00:44:19.460all these instances where we have toxic men in our community do we banish them all1.00
00:44:26.060what happens like what is the repercussions of that and my mom and my aunties like one of my
00:44:34.040aunties she was like we can't do that because to a certain extent like we are cutting off just as
00:44:42.200much as men have been cut off from their the feminine side of their existence we would be as
00:44:49.340a community as a nation cutting off the masculine side of our of our culture of our identity
00:44:55.880we have to find a different way and that's a challenge like what does that look like right
00:45:04.220some of our ceremonies like one of our one of our most important ceremonies there's a couple
00:45:09.500times where there's been men who have known to harass women who have known to been perpetrators
00:45:14.840and we've asked them to leave we've told them like you can't be here this is not a space
00:45:19.040that you're not welcomed at because your your presence does not create a space of healing and
00:45:25.820a space of safety for relatives who are here and we understand that and i i've supported that
00:45:32.180but then also on the other side of my mind i'm like okay but how are we actually looking towards
00:45:38.040healing as a community what does this space look like and i and i'm i'm walking into muddy waters
00:45:43.760here i'm fully aware of that because there's a whole spectrum of what you would say offenders
00:45:48.140to our community whether it's you know folks that have been convicted of of sexual violence
00:45:54.940and other folks who are on a far lesser degree who just yeah on a far on the other end of the
00:46:01.440spectrum but who are still in that pocket of like hey this guy is not welcomed in this space
00:46:05.820what is community accountability look like but also what does restorative justice and healing
00:46:10.760look like as a people because my aunties and my mom asked a really distinct hard question they're
00:46:17.780like or they there was a statement my mom made was if if we if we banished i'm laughing because
00:46:26.860i'm trying to remember and she way she said it was it was pretty funny but she was to me to all
00:46:31.200of us she made us laugh but she was like if we made a decision to kick out all the creepy men
00:46:37.900there would be no men in this space and is that what we really want you know she's like i don't
00:46:45.280want that so we have she's like we have to be more creative and inventive of how we
00:46:54.400hold men accountable but also how do we welcome them into a space of community
00:46:59.620six million women thrown to the flames the library is burning oh remember their names
00:47:09.460The first colonization of the human race0.92
00:50:30.420It's a timely and pertinent question for sure.
00:50:33.160well i i feel like honestly the one one way to answer that is is something that i try to do
00:50:41.100in my own life is for those that have families that have kids is like i'm trying to embody
00:50:48.120as much as i can what i want to see for my son like i want i'm trying to embody
00:50:53.640the sacred masculine as much as possible for my son so that he can break some of these cycles
00:50:59.460right like it's crazy because i was sitting there just a couple days ago like three days ago
00:51:04.700i was sitting with my son my son is nine years old and i said you know what son my i'm rubbing
00:51:11.980my my hands running my hands through his hair and i just gave him a kiss on the cheek and i said
00:51:16.460you know what's crazy son i said there are a lot of boys out there whose dads never say i love you
00:51:25.860and who will never who don't kiss them on the cheek and he looked at me and he was like what
00:51:32.800really he's like why and I was like just because that's the way those dads were taught to be like
00:51:41.260they were taught to not say I love you they were taught not to show love and affection and my son
00:51:49.780said that's so sad he was like they don't get to hug their dad they don't get to hug and snuggle
00:51:56.600and i said no and for him what i made me laugh and smile is that the fact that he responded that
00:52:04.620way like he could not comprehend that shows me like hey i'm doing something good it's hard for
00:52:09.500him to comprehend a world where where a dad does not say i love you and does not give you hugs and
00:52:14.600does not show affection and so it just get it reinforces like hey i'm trying i'm i think i'm
00:52:20.860doing good i think i'm doing good here and that's a charge for each and every one of us who have
00:52:26.340kids out there who are nieces or who have nephews to practice that to encourage them to be
00:52:32.120completely human to allow them to be human i do the same thing there's a couple of us men that we
00:52:39.960we are not afraid, we encourage ourselves actually to say I love you to other men of our age as signs
00:52:45.900of affection, whether it's your cousins or your brothers or your friends, your bros, say, hey, I
00:52:49.600love you, man. Using the power of language to combat our education as men is absolutely key.
00:52:57.580So that, I think, is one tremendous step, is to disrupt the status quo in our daily lives about
00:53:06.480what it means to be a man is absolutely essential to continue to challenge ourselves i i'm totally
00:53:13.940about it like continue to challenge men who are mansplaining to continue men men who are taking
00:53:19.580up too much of the space who are sucking up all the air in the room to continue to challenge us
00:53:23.480is absolutely essential but on the flip side to also understand that that we as men are using
00:53:31.900the only language that we've been taught and it's a stunted language is an adequate language
00:53:38.000it is a language devoid of some of the most critical aspects of being a complete human
00:53:44.940and so we are disabled to a certain extent there's an issue of disability here
00:53:51.100that we have to be mindful of and have a certain amount of like okay i may not love this person i
00:53:57.780may not like this may not be a time or energy i don't want to give energy to this individual man
00:54:02.460but to men overall we have to have create start creating that space for healing and to learn to
00:54:10.100relearn a language of love that allows us to be complete human beings
00:54:15.000dallas thank you so much and i loved hearing about that intimate moment with your son and
00:54:24.160the snuggles and just how you were and so lovingly explaining to him how other boys and fathers don't
00:54:34.660get that don't don't have that connection and that was really really beautiful to share that
00:54:40.220with us thank you and and thank you for all of this dallas you know like i said i i've had such
00:54:46.660such the joy of spending time with you and and you work in so many different ways in the world
00:54:52.600And I know probably many of the listeners know that and know you are a tireless organizer for indigenous sovereignty and issues surrounding climate change and extreme resource extraction and protection of land and earth.
00:55:09.380and to know that you also do this work with toxic masculinity and connecting the dots of toxic
00:55:17.700masculinity and unhealthy patriarchy and white supremacy and settler colonialism and resource
00:55:23.160extraction. I mean, wow, you are so comprehensive in your understanding. And then in the way that
00:55:31.480you implement your understanding in, you know, in communities, in the way you communicate
00:55:36.220with people. I'm just so grateful for you. And I'm so grateful that you have given so much of
00:55:43.760yourself to be such a deeply thoughtful and caring and connected person. So I'm giving you a huge hug
00:55:55.120through this computer technological connection we're having right now. And thank you so much,
00:56:01.340for all this thank you so much and i i have a hard time dealing with any type of praise whatsoever
00:56:07.920but i appreciate your words and much love and positive energy to all those listeners for one
00:56:16.160sticking through for this interview and listening to uh the things that were shared here but also
00:56:21.620for your efforts to smash the patriarchy and to build a better world like i really believe in in
00:56:29.260the power of the collective. It's not individuals. It's not elected leaders. It's not individual
00:56:35.160people that create tremendous moments of change. It is mass movements that create that change.
00:56:41.000And I really firmly believe that we are capable of doing it and achieving it. So
00:56:47.360thank you for this podcast, for being a part of that movement.
00:56:51.520Thank you for as an interviewer and leader for that, Ayanna.
00:56:59.260thank you for listening to for the wild podcast i'm ayana young the music you heard today was
00:57:24.440from our dear friend lila june our theme music is like a river from kate wolf i'd like to thank
00:57:31.600our podcast team our producer and editor andrew stores our research collaborator and writer
00:57:38.480francesca glassbell our media director molly lebov communications director aaron wise and our music
00:57:47.260coordinator carter lou mcelroy if you haven't signed up for our newsletter please do so on our
00:57:53.280website at forthewild.world and subscribe on iTunes. Alright, thanks so much and until next time.