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00:00:36.840Hello and welcome to For the Wild podcast. I'm Ayanna Young. Today I'm speaking with Louise Brady.
00:00:44.380That relationship with money is so fleeting. I mean, it's not even a real thing. Whereas our environment, the herring, the ocean, the whales, the eagles, the ravens, the land, that's what's real.
00:01:05.200Louise Brady is a woman of the Tlingit Nation in Sheikla, an island off the coast of southeast
00:01:12.820Alaska. She is Raven Frog or Kiksadi Clan. Kiksadi women are known as the Herring Ladies0.97
00:01:20.000and have original instructions that connect them spiritually, culturally, and historically to
00:01:25.620herring. She is the founder of Herring Protectors, a grassroots movement of people that share
00:01:32.200concerns that the herring population in Shikla and the culture tied to it are under threat.
00:01:39.080Over the last three years, herring protectors have helped put on to honor the herring kuik
00:01:43.940that honored the sacred relationship the Tlingit people have with the herring
00:01:48.460and the role they play in our way of life.
00:01:53.420Well, Louise, thank you so much for joining us.
00:01:57.520I feel so indebted to your homelands and it's a great honor to be speaking with you
00:02:05.140about this place that is so powerful and important so I am very honored and very excited to
00:02:14.000be having this time with you. Thank you very much for allowing me to be here today.
00:02:22.200we're getting really close to what we're going to talk about herring time so it's just really
00:02:28.980beautiful here today and we've had some snow and as one of my granddaughters would say it's like
00:02:35.200a winter wonderland it sounds so beautiful well i'm wondering to begin if you'd like to introduce
00:03:08.060I am a grandchild of the kawantan, which is the wolf clan.0.95
00:03:14.300and we kick-study women are known as the herring ladies.
00:03:21.060Thank you so much for grounding us in that introduction.
00:03:26.120So, Luis, many of us think of the Pacific Northwest as a place of abundance.
00:03:32.620However, for those who are not intimately acquainted with the ecosystem,
00:03:37.520they might not intuitively think of herring as such foundational kin that feed everything from chinook, seals, birds, and whales, including the endangered southern resident whales.
00:03:51.900So to preface herring protectors, I wonder if you can speak to the extent that herring nourish North Pacific marine ecosystems and how many will go hungry should they continue to be overfished by industry?
00:04:07.980the herring are the foundation of our ecosystem here we live right on the edge of the pacific
00:04:19.360ocean on an island so we eat a lot of salmon a lot of seafood halibut we originally had a food
00:04:29.380economy, which was basically based on the harvest season. And the food that we eat,
00:04:38.500as you mentioned, the salmon, the halibut, the seals, the whales, all depend on a healthy
00:04:49.680herring population. And one of the things that I noticed is that in other places around
00:04:57.300Southeast Alaska, where the herring populations have crashed, they have very small salmon,
00:05:08.800So if we lose this herring population and so many other places in Southeast Alaska and
00:05:16.660British Columbia, the populations have crashed over the years.
00:05:20.620And I would say probably for the last 100 years that the herring have been fished.
00:05:27.300near i would say extinction of course others may not agree with so it would be a matter of
00:05:33.780we would not just lose the herring we would lose so much of all of the other foods that we depend
00:05:40.900upon and the herring eggs for us are very important spiritually culturally and physically
00:05:53.740Well, I want to emphasize the respect and gratitude that has always been given to herring throughout Southeast Alaska, outside of commercial fishing. And I think one of the ways this is done so beautifully is how herring eggs have been traditionally harvested through the placement of hemlock and cedar bows in the water, versus the violent and wasteful way that commercial industry collects eggs.
00:06:21.880So can you explain these two different approaches as an example of how industry is unable to be in relationship?
00:06:30.660I think people were taught to have respect.
00:06:36.140And in fact, when I went to one of our grandmothers, I was in my early 20s.
00:06:41.880I really wanted to know what our culture was about.
00:06:44.820And I thought she was going to sit me down and teach me everything.
00:06:48.780And she said, if there's one word, it's respect.
00:06:51.120And there's a phrase in Tlingit, which is respect for all things.
00:06:58.620And it's not just for what we would consider moving things, but just everything and everyone we encounter.
00:07:08.900so when our harvesters go out to gather the herring eggs they have to go in to the forest
00:07:19.120and cut down a hemlock tree some people cut down the branches or cut the branches but some cut down
00:07:28.260trees and we give thanks to the tree for giving its life for our life so that we can live and
00:07:36.660And we go out and set the branches and just tie a rock to them.
00:07:43.720And then the herring will come and lay their eggs on the branches.
00:07:48.400So we're not killing any herring at all.
00:08:04.440It's a time where we celebrate each other and, you know, the return of a spring and the abundance of the herring and the abundance of this land and this water that we were so blessed to be born on and born into this culture.
00:08:22.060And we realized that, you know, we can't take any more than we need.
00:08:29.320But with the fishing industry, it's completely different.
00:08:34.440It's actually really, it is really violent.
00:08:39.980The sakura is considered a delicacy in the Japanese culture.0.99
00:08:43.100And so the saners, which is a type of fishing, have been coming here for herring, I would say, at least since the 70s.
00:08:57.460And being the herring overseas, the sakura overseas.
00:09:02.720when they fish for the herring or the sacro they don't they don't use the herring and nowadays
00:09:10.860because we believe because of the other fishing sometimes it takes days for them to get their
00:09:17.940quota there's a set quota by a lot of the department of fishing game and they have to be a
00:09:22.820certain size and a certain weight and if they don't get that and when let's say they get
00:09:31.080a ton of herring in one set but they're not the correct size they will catch them in the net and
00:09:37.440then it's not the right size and they release them well i was talking to one of our tribal
00:09:42.440biologists and he said when they do that if you were to have a camera under the water you could
00:09:48.120see their scales floating down to the ocean floor and just like with us and our skin our skin
00:09:56.980protects those hair scales protect them and so that makes the herring
00:10:01.220assistable to infection and to illness also when they do a set and again if it's if they're not
00:10:12.880if they don't meet the size requirements and they pull the net up out of the air and you have all
00:10:20.120of these herring and you're crushing some of the herring and suffocating some of them and then
00:10:26.200they'll let them go and even when they do find the ones the right size they take the macro out
00:10:35.800and then they grind the herring up for dog food or to feed farmed salmon it's such an incredible waste
00:10:51.060thank you so much for sharing those details
00:10:57.100yeah just as industry encroached over southeast Alaska a dozen official herring management sites
00:11:06.060were developed to provide commercial harvest as well as subsistence herring egg harvest and
00:11:11.900I understand that currently 11 of these have been overfished to near extinction, with the Sitka sack roe fishery being the last site to provide any sort of noticeable hardavist.
00:11:24.260So how have these fisheries been chronically mismanaged, and why has the state of Alaska allowed this to happen continuously across so many different historical herring fisheries?
00:11:39.960And I first testified before the Board of Fish.
00:11:43.760So the Board of Fish, the state of Alaska oversees fisheries.
00:11:48.280And the Board of Fish, the Board of Fisheries is a board of nine people that, I guess, sit and listen to testimony from the public about the fisheries.
00:12:06.220And the Sitka Tribe of Alaska has been going before the board at least for 25 years, I would say, more like 30 to 35 years.
00:12:25.400and a lot of the people who testify are basically the fishermen
00:12:34.980the people who have the permits to fish the herring
00:12:39.160and the state border fish listens to their biologists
00:12:47.500and the state biologists have a specific formula
00:12:55.220that they use to calculate the number of herring that are in the area.
00:13:02.280One of the things that we believe has happened
00:13:06.880is that the baseline that's being used is already a depleted baseline.
00:13:13.400The baseline only goes back to the 70s,
00:13:16.400Whereas our oral histories go back at least hundreds of years.
00:13:26.160so with this inaccurate baseline that started we believe with an already depleted population
00:13:39.040department of fishing game came and said okay you know they set a 20 percent uh limit for the
00:13:46.900fishermen this year the guideline harvest level is 33 000 tons and what we've been seeing happening
00:13:56.320here as i i remember back in probably going back to the 80s and the 90s there were 50 maybe 51 52
00:14:06.780somewhere around there fishermen who would come in and the department of fishing game would come
00:14:14.020in and they would open the fishery and sometimes the fishermen would get their quota in an hour
00:14:27.420and it's because the fishery is depleted and the state comes back with well no herring move around
00:14:39.360And in fact, I mean, there's always there's always a reason to move forward with a fishery.
00:14:46.220I guess it's the bottom line. Two years ago, there was a fishery and I believe the fleet got maybe one third of the located tonnage.
00:15:02.760and last year there wasn't even a fishery and i will tell you just it you know last year was the
00:15:08.700first time in many many years so many of us noticed we could just after two years we could
00:15:14.080smell the herring in town because the herring have gone offshore um the island i talked about
00:15:20.480to cruise off and it was so nice and we saw it's like the whole sound used to turn this beautiful
00:15:30.380beautiful turquoise blue we'll call it Mediterranean blue there were so many herring here but it's just
00:15:36.760I think so much of it is that depleted baseline and the science that is really I think inaccurate
00:15:47.980yeah it's such an important point to talk about shifting baselines and
00:15:57.420And when the baseline is from the 70s, you know, and then management is based off a time after colonization, after commercial resource extraction had already started, it's not accurate.
00:16:12.640and how could it be? And then all of the impacts it has when you're managing a fishery or a land
00:16:22.960based off an incorrect baseline or problematic baseline. So I really appreciate you sharing
00:16:31.560that because I think that's a nuance and a particularity that many of us probably don't
00:16:38.980even consider. And so when we're questioning extinction crises, it's really important to
00:16:45.420take in all this information. So thank you. Yes. And I don't know if you went to the National
00:16:53.560Historical Park when you were here. I did. Yeah. Oh, one of the elders who has since passed,
00:17:01.200he would say, you know, the flats, the beach flats go really far out. And he, when the
00:17:07.700herring were in when he was a child he said that you could just stick a paddle in the water and it
00:17:13.980would stand up by itself the herring eggs were so thick and friends of mine in the 70s they said you
00:17:19.840know they wouldn't even have to go fishing to catch herring they would just take a bucket down to
00:17:24.520the um each ponds or you know down to the the footbridge and just a bucket in the water and
00:17:32.640pull it up it'd be full of herring so it's it's happening quickly i would say
00:17:38.720life givers swimming upstream life givers swimming upstream oh life givers swimming upstream
00:18:23.560holding your blood back turned to waterfalls down it comes crashing i can see the land
00:18:33.700bring back the peoples who always belonged here0.69
00:18:39.940yeah now this is less of a question and more of an observation but one of our greatest problems
00:18:54.020with globalization seems to be the loss of reverence that takes place as something
00:18:58.700becomes more and more accessible and i think i was referencing this a bit earlier with the
00:19:05.520abundance of choices we now have versus the actual abundance of place because herring is
00:19:12.040currently used in so many different ways. Like you were mentioning a while ago, it's in pet food
00:19:18.140and fertilizer. It's used in fish meal for aquariums and salmon farms. And it's also sold
00:19:26.120as a delicacy in Japan because Japan has already depleted their own herring source. And yeah,0.68
00:19:34.120So I just wonder if you could speak to the absurdity of herring being murdered in mass to ultimately feed farm salmon when many ecosystems across the Pacific Northwest are severely struggling because wild salmon and whales don't even have enough to eat.
00:19:53.460or perhaps just personally what comes up for you thinking about this global disrespect that's
00:19:59.900taking place and the sort of spiritual ramification of it i i really believe that that's at the point
00:20:10.100of this because think of culture in many well i'll just speak to think of culture because that's
00:20:17.840what I come from, is based on relationships.
00:25:11.060I talked to some other local owners and told them that this was what I wanted to do.
00:25:15.900And they said, yes, that would be really good.
00:25:18.880And so we had our first herring cookie.
00:25:21.340And as we were moving through it, preparing for the ceremony, we make a lot of gifts.
00:25:30.920There was weaving and there was crocheting and there was drum making.
00:25:35.700And some people made paddles to go to our guests, our invited guests.
00:25:43.260And it was a really powerful way to cement those relationships with each other, to come together and to make things.
00:25:54.840Because also in our culture, I'm also a Raven's Tale weaver.
00:25:59.200and my mentor terry rafkar always would tell me whatever is in your heart comes out in your hands
00:26:07.780so we always really need to be careful how we approach whatever it is we're making
00:26:13.500whatever it is we're saying we always need to have a good heart
00:26:19.160and we opened the ceremony to the entire town of Sitka and here we have maybe 16 maybe 20
00:26:33.980percent Alaska Native Tlingit and I think that was the first time the ceremony was opened up
00:26:39.900And for me, it was really, really beautiful.
00:26:44.860some of those same elders who spoke for that three minutes at the board of fish
00:26:53.100were able to get up at the ceremony and talk about their relationship our relationship
00:26:59.340as a Tlingit people to the herring and could talk about you know would go out here when I was a
00:27:07.140young person and the herring was plentiful and we'd go out here and the herring was plentiful
00:27:11.440and we had four members of the fish come on people just you know talked and were able we're
00:27:22.080able to come together and celebrate our relationship with the herring and it is
00:27:30.740spiritual you know spiritual historical cultural emotional it's like every part of our being
00:27:38.260and when we tell these stories or our history western science the fishermen they say yeah but
00:27:52.900those are just stories where's your dad and i was in a meeting with one of the permit holders
00:28:01.020and the mine had done research and he was talking about how plentiful the herring were
00:28:08.600and he had some really good information and this permit holder got up and said yeah but
00:28:13.740how are we going to pay our rent how are we going to make money and my response was
00:28:18.500that's what you don't understand it has nothing to do with money for
00:28:24.640And I really believe that a lot of people have gotten how to have any kind of relationship, much less healthy relationship with the environment and with each other.
00:29:47.240and i have to say you know so far it's been an amazing journey working together
00:29:56.180and i am continuing to learn so much about myself
00:30:01.560and i have to say i'm just so grateful for everyone who's coming along on this journey
00:30:09.140because it's pretty incredible wow that is so moving yeah i'm just catching my my heart
00:30:21.980for a moment but in the herring protectors film yaatwane you talk about the joy of the harvest
00:30:31.680and how climate change and extractive industry are stripping away at place-based joy
00:30:38.680And we often hear folks talk about how we're living in this critical time where we need to be experiencing joy as part of our activism, but so often that joy and pleasure is outsourced to behaviors that are threatening the earth.
00:30:56.200So I'd like to bring in this topic of joy and context to herring protectors, and I wonder if you could share what this means for you.0.97
00:31:08.680I have to say, so in my personal life, I really, there's still a lot of segregation that goes on in this community and I would imagine in a lot of communities.0.51
00:31:21.160And the people that I ended up working with are probably people that I really not have worked with previously.
00:31:31.920And that's just because, you know, I am Tlingit.
00:37:30.180And I feel bad for people who live here and, you know, can't go out every day and just see the beauty and celebrate and the magic of being here.
00:38:35.340Thank you for that reminder that seems so simple, but also so challenging in these times.
00:38:59.600And I think we need to keep reminding each other in just holding that gratitude for the magic and finding the beauty and allowing that beauty and that magic to sustain us to keep challenging these dominant systems that we know we need to push out.
00:39:20.280and yeah and I'd like to move into a conversation around whether or not certain institutions
00:39:28.360will ever be compatible with the sort of respect that is so desperately needed and in context to
00:39:36.640hearing what I'm really thinking about is whether or not in an institution like the Alaska Board of
00:39:43.300Fish is equipped to understand the depth of relationship and connection to hearing
00:39:49.420And I think about my time in Alaska and going up to various public comment meetings related to the Tongass, where people were given just a few minutes to make their statements.
00:40:00.420And, you know, you were talking about this earlier, how those sort of limitations will never allow meaningful conversation.
00:40:09.800You know, you can't change someone's opinion in three minutes or even really get into any important details in that time.
00:40:17.100So do you think it's time for folks to really begin thinking about how these regulatory bodies can be ushered out before they allow more permanent damage?
00:40:30.660Definitely. And, you know, I'm not really sure how to do that if there was, you know, more local control.
00:40:36.560It's like, let's take a look at, you know, how many people come here to Sheetka or to Alaska, you know, for the oil industry, for the mining industry, for forestry, and where are all of these, you know, so-called resources going.
00:40:54.260And, you know, people, if people don't understand our culture and this place, right, place-based
00:43:09.280and the one person that voted against it he's from the interior is Athabasca he's indigenous
00:43:16.460and he's not on the board anymore and I'm not sure how we um get that to be a fair process
00:43:25.380I think it comes it does come down to uh for me sovereignty uh tribal sovereignty a lot of people
00:43:34.160might not be familiar with that but you know tribes in the united states have a government
00:43:40.320to government relationship with the federal government because of all the land and resources
00:43:47.320were taken and we don't have that with the state and we do have some with the local governments
00:43:56.880here which is you know still finding our way but unless western institutions in general
00:44:05.380can come to a point of understanding that indigenous knowledge
00:44:12.420is valuable and that indigenous people are not the only ones that need to learn western ways of
00:44:24.600being and western values but that western
00:44:28.200society need us and need to understand our way of being in a place those changes are going to be
00:44:40.820really difficult and i do see some places you know like at the university level and you know
00:44:48.040moving in that direction and i really hope that people you know if people don't understand what
00:44:54.480sovereignty is please you know read about it and if you if you don't know whose indigenous land
00:44:59.500find out and reach out reach out to people yeah so important for those of us who aren't involved
00:45:14.460or aren't knowledgeable to get involved and learn and read and ask questions in a respectful way
00:45:24.080and engage in the process. We do need all hands on deck. And for us to come together and build
00:45:33.620relationship, we need to have a foundation of understanding and really the patience and the
00:45:39.080time commitment to keep showing up in, you know, in a way that has longevity and, and yeah, that
00:45:46.740deep commitment. So I, I appreciate that reminder as well. And I'm sure those of us listening in
00:45:54.040the audience, this, that call, um, that calling in for us to hear that is so important. I think
00:46:02.360we also need to continually be calling each other into the work. Yeah. So I really appreciate that.
00:46:08.740And now since 2002, the Sitka tribe of Alaska has been appealing to the Board of Fish with various different proposals to protect the herring population.
00:46:20.260And I mention this because it's been nearly two decades of working to protect the herring.
00:46:25.860And this timeline brings up a question for me on relationship, especially in a place like Alaska where the communities are small and there is a real necessity of maintaining relationships alongside organizing and campaigning.
00:46:40.880And I wonder if you can speak to how this work really involves working to instill responsibility and relationship throughout the community through ceremony, like the Herring Kui, and the importance of working to build allyship outside of one's own circle.
00:47:00.280that's one thing that is really good is it is a small community and you know i think our reach
00:47:08.480can be so impactful opening up the kuih to people i think was sort of a turning point i think that
00:47:18.000we're having here in shika it's actually it's pretty amazing we have that's one of the things
00:47:24.120think that we've been able to do is to be very visible around some of these issues and the second
00:47:32.320year that we had the kui it was again open to people and we actually had a symbolic uh canoe
00:47:41.420journey from about seven miles north of sit to downtown sitka and then we had a parade and again
00:47:51.320And we actually invited people to come and learn how to do beadwork and how to, you know, carve a paddle and how to make drums and how to weave.
00:48:04.740And all of those things, I don't think, you know, and we made it, we made regular announcements and we reached out to people.
00:48:11.700And I think in a lot of ways, that was a first.
00:48:14.560and the place that we had it was so crowded there were so many people and um those of us
00:48:23.080who were working there were just like we have never seen this many local people here and for
00:48:27.820the parade as well and the kook that we had down at the alaska native brotherhood hall
00:48:33.400which has been mainly for native functions was full and you know people asking what they could
00:48:40.320We had people asking us what they could do and how they could contribute.
00:48:45.000And it's amazing how many people, even the non-indigenous folk, had no idea we were still having ceremonies.
00:48:55.120They had no idea how important herring eggs were to us.
00:48:59.680So it's been, I think, a great learning exchange.
00:49:04.560And so we are working on other issues, I think, especially with the turmoil that we've had around race, we've been able to do something.
00:49:14.460Like we had a statue of Baranov, who was a Russian, who came here and it was in front of where we hold the city meetings.
00:49:27.240And we had a really pretty large group of supporters who said, you know, that isn't right.0.69
00:49:32.760Because he was very destructive and violent with Alaska Natives, not only ethnic people, but the Unang to the north.
00:49:41.800And so we had a lot of supporters and started to get more supporters in, you know, city government and we support them as well.
00:49:49.900And again, it's just it's saying we want to be inclusive.
00:49:55.660And for me, a part of it is that, you know, my my my culture, I believe, is just so beautiful.
00:50:00.960and that reciprocity and the the healing that happens that comes about when we gather as a
00:50:10.500community i think is amazing and i think that's how we get to know each other is to you know it's
00:50:18.560you know everybody i think has had collaborative projects where we sit together at the table and
00:50:25.060try to decide what to do but it's the difference is that you know it's not a meeting it's coming
00:50:32.620together to celebrate each other and to give each other the time and the space to do that
00:50:37.180and i think it has been really impactful and we have had you know more and more people
00:50:43.740wanting to come to the koo ink and i think because people are hungry to learn people
00:50:49.400do want to learn there's so many people that are open right now to you know extending that
00:50:58.280hand or and reaching for that hand and saying you know let's let's do this together let's learn how
00:51:05.320we can be part of the community that's so beautiful and inspirational and i'm like yes
00:51:14.060okay we can do this but you'll come to the next one yes i want to be there i'm i'm thinking about
00:51:23.320how to make that happen and yeah i i also want to mention um earlier this year the sitka tribe
00:51:31.840of alaska won another round of its legal fight over the state's mismanagement of herring and
00:51:37.640I wonder if you could share where you are now and what listeners can do to support,
00:51:44.220especially if listeners are not from Alaska, and maybe also what's next.
00:51:49.800So the Sikha Tribe of Alaska filed a lawsuit. I think it was the end of 2019,
00:51:57.920after 25 years of going to the Board of Fish. So there are three parts to the lawsuit. And
00:52:06.800The latest ruling came on November 30th of last year, 2020, where the judge ruled that the Alaska Department of Fish and Game failed to follow regulations, requiring it to meaningful consider the quality and quantity of herring spawn on branches when managing the commercial herring fishery in Sitka Sound.
00:52:28.740so the alaska department of fishing game under their management is supposed to be able to manage
00:52:34.340the fishery so that we as indigenous people have the opportunity to go out and get you know um
00:52:40.920herring eggs good quality herring eggs and you know and i don't even know how to describe it
00:52:48.240again if you watch the video i mean there was a time when lay the branch out and you can get like
00:53:24.320So we're just waiting. And then in March of last year, the judge ruled that ADF and G had failed to make required determinations regarding whether there is a reasonable opportunity for subsistence harvesters when managing the commercial fishery.
00:53:40.460And again, that also goes back to, you know, we haven't been able to get the hearing and eggs that we needed.
00:53:47.560And so now we are waiting for what could be the final ruling, but we're not sure.
00:53:53.300From the judge, we had a hearing in, our STA had a hearing in January.
00:53:58.600And I'm not sure when we'll have a ruling on that.
00:54:01.540But if the judge rules against the tribe, then there will be a trial in June.
00:54:07.460And as people know, the Secretary of Alaska had to hire a law firm out of Anchorage that has handled what is called subsistence cases previously.
00:54:23.140It's really hard to say some of these things without going into an explanation to people of what they are.
00:54:28.240But basically subsistence is traditional harvesting, whether it's herring eggs or red salmon, you know, under Alaska state laws, people are allowed to do that.
00:54:42.160But specifically for us, the subsistence herring eggs are the factor.
00:54:47.300So the way that people can support is there's more information on our Facebook page, which is called the Herring Protectors, or you can support the Sitka Tribe of Alaska by sending funds to help with the lawsuit.
00:55:07.500and you can get that on the the address um on the sika tribe of alaska s-i-t-k-a
00:55:18.580website or facebook page and you know i think overall too um i'm not sure how it would
00:55:31.060affect what we're doing but every year there's an opportunity to submit
00:55:37.320written testimony to the alaska department of fishing game of course that's mainly for
00:55:45.000alaska citizens but in general yeah just contact us we invite you to you know you can come to the
00:55:53.000Kuik. We're having a smaller celebration this year, next month. And I think to really learn
00:56:03.960more about Indigenous people and Indigenous rights, there is the United Nations Permanent
00:56:15.540forum on indigenous peoples and um a declaration of human rights and the way that the alaska
00:56:24.120department of fish and game has and the state of alaska have been just managing the fisheries
00:56:30.700is in direct violation of many of the clauses in that and i think as people become more educated
00:56:38.620we're more likely to take action so contact us yeah i agree with that and yes please do
00:56:48.180and i will keep in touch and find ways that for the wild can support and yeah and also in our
00:56:56.480show notes and through social media for all of you who are listening we'll put up links on the
00:57:02.480website and such so you can find all this information easily well louise thank you so
00:57:09.080much for this time like i said at the beginning i felt honored then and i feel so blessed to
00:57:17.560have been able to hear the depth of your yeah i just feel of your heart of your knowing
00:57:28.980of this land and of yourself and in what we need to do moving forward.
00:57:35.700So thank you so much for your time and your devotion.