00:02:17.100Her important work has generated widespread national recognition and support.
00:02:22.020In 2010, MAP was invited to the White House to participate in the America's Great Outdoors Conference
00:02:27.900and subsequently to take part in a think tank to inform the launch of the First Lady's Let's Move initiative.
00:02:34.840She was appointed program officer for the Stewardship Council's Foundation for Youth Investment
00:02:39.120to oversee its grant-making program from 2010 to 2012.
00:02:44.080Since that time, MAP's work and op-eds have been featured in publications including the Wall Street Journal,
00:02:50.480Backpacker Magazine, Seattle Times, Los Angeles Times, Ebony Magazine, Sunset Magazine, NPR,
00:02:58.660and many more. Rue's work has also been recognized with numerous awards and distinctions, including
00:03:04.780the Root 100 as one of the most influential African Americans in the country, 2012 and 2016,
00:03:12.560Outdoor Industry Inspiration Award, National Wildlife Federation Communication Award,
00:03:17.360received alongside President Bill Clinton, and Family Circle Magazine selected Rue as one of
00:03:23.160America's 20 most influential moms. She is proud to serve on the Outdoor Industry Association Board.
00:03:29.120In 2014, Rue was appointed to the California State Parks Commission by Governor Jerry Brown.
00:03:35.340A graduate of UC Berkeley with a degree in art history, Rue's skills and background make her a
00:03:40.400unique voice via the leadership and programs she has instituted through Outdoor Afro, enlightening
00:03:46.520a diverse community to the wonders and benefits of the outdoors. Rue resides in Oakland, California
00:03:52.200and is the proud mother of three active children. I'd love if you could start us off by sharing a
00:03:59.420bit about your story as well as outdoor afros and what led you to birth this organization.
00:04:07.440I'm frequently asked that question and depending on who the asker is you might get a slight
00:04:12.680variation from the public view. But for me, your words of, you said birth, and that word
00:04:21.580very much resonates with me when I think about Outdoor Afro and just how it quickly became my
00:04:29.700North Star after talking with a mentor when I was on the verge of applying to grad school and
00:04:36.520hauling my children across the country, potentially. She knew that was going to be
00:04:41.460really hard to do. I had actually been divorced for several years by that time and had gone back
00:04:49.380to school to complete an undergrad degree at UC Berkeley, as you mentioned, because I had never
00:04:56.560finished it. Starting a family interrupted those plans. And after divorcing, I realized I needed to
00:05:03.300take care of the unfinished business and got very excited about the prospect of going to
00:05:08.580business school. I had started a business. I had worked at Morgan Stanley as an analyst and had
00:05:13.940gone as far as I could go in that organization without more education. So going back to school
00:05:19.300for me was really about opening more doors to sustain, you know, the economics of the family.
00:05:26.020But something bigger happened. That mentor asked me a question that I think everyone should ask or
00:05:35.140or answer at some point in their life. And she said, or asked, if time and money were not an
00:05:40.680issue, what would you be doing? And it was this magic moment that was presented to me where I
00:05:48.240opened my mouth and my life fell out. And I said, oh, I probably start a website to reconnect
00:05:54.080African-Americans to the outdoors. And everything that I'd experienced in life came into such a
00:06:00.840sharp, pinpointed focus about what I needed to do next. And within two weeks after that
00:06:08.720conversation, Outdoor Afro was born from just a simple blogger template in 2009.
00:06:16.500And it was the moment that social media was still fairly new. So from my kitchen table,
00:06:23.720I was able to have this dialogue about the outdoors and what it meant to me, what it meant
00:06:29.080growing up both in Oakland and in Lake County on a ranch that my dad put together and oversaw for
00:06:36.740many years where I learned to hunt and fish and ride my bike on country roads and how we had this
00:06:42.440container in nature for family and other community members to spend time with each other. So from a
00:06:51.720very young age, I had this connection to people and to place and Outdoor Afro began as a platform
00:06:58.840to tell those stories. And I also had a love for technology and was an early adopter of the
00:07:05.960internet, but also beforehand did lots of coding and just had a relative ease with using digital
00:07:13.500platforms to connect with people. So Outdoor Opera was really a coming together of all of those
00:07:19.200things. It was born out of a time in life where I had to think about my next moves. And I was willing
00:07:26.600to give myself over to it. And ever since then, I haven't really looked back. I did not plan
00:07:37.940to build a national not-for-profit organization at that time. A national conversation emerged
00:07:44.620out of that blog that propelled me into the White House the following year for the America's Great
00:07:52.180Outdoors Conference. And in that moment, I was able to see that there was an entire field of
00:07:57.620people who have been having these conversations about people and place and the environment and
00:08:02.760trying to make sense of it all and to reach even broader audiences. So I just had a number of
00:08:09.940serendipitous moments in those early months of starting Outdoor Afro that I can clearly see
00:08:17.520brought us to where we are today. So that's the, that's a long version of the, how did we get here?
00:08:23.420It was absolutely an aha moment on one hand, but on the other hand, it was an open door
00:08:31.600of everything that makes me who I am. And I have to admit that it's the first time in life from a
00:08:39.740personal perspective and professional one where I get to be all the parts of who I am. And because
00:08:46.640of that, the work gives me back more than it takes away. And I can do more than I've ever
00:08:53.420done before with joy and ease. That's where we are today. And now I'm running an organization
00:08:59.440that I just am thrilled to continue to nurture and find support for and enjoy all the people
00:09:07.780who are a part of it. I was just thinking about the times atop mountains or under ancient trees
00:09:17.560or in the snow or out on the oceans as birds dive. It's this incredible time to heal physically,
00:09:26.200spiritually, emotionally, mentally, a time to be inspired and to ground oneself.
00:09:31.640and being with the earth is when the loneliness of our messy unjust society can fade into
00:09:38.680a sense of belonging in the great web of life and there's just so many benefits that come to mind
00:09:45.700when I think of people reconnecting with earth who have never had access to wild spaces before
00:09:51.180due to systemic barriers but I'm curious to hear from you what are some of the shifts that you've
00:09:57.920witnessed in people that have instilled just how meaningful this work is?
00:10:03.400Well, there are two really important things that I've learned in this work, and you spoke
00:10:09.840very eloquently to the first one. That is the healing power of nature and the need for
00:10:15.940us to recognize nature as a powerful platform or conduit to solve all our problems, quite frankly.
00:10:24.180The answers are there. I remember when I was rock climbing for the very first time, and I share the story a lot because it's something that stuck with me, where I was climbing and didn't have the proper light gear and was sent up before we lost light so I could take advantage of what little sunlight was left.
00:10:50.340because we were going to camp at the summit after a day of practice climbs. I was still very anxious
00:10:56.320about rock climbing. We had an outdoor connection growing up in my family, but we weren't
00:11:01.260mountaineers. And I, you know, found myself going up slowly and got stuck finally in the middle of
00:11:09.480the ascent and just was frozen. I just could not go forward. And I was having, you know,
00:11:16.780a breakdown of sorts. And my instructor leaned over and said these magic words. He said,
00:11:25.600Ru, trust your feet. And that unlocked something in me. And I scrambled to the top.
00:11:34.840And I don't know, I can't explain how it happened. But it was the lesson that I needed to learn
00:11:41.800at 20 years old that I could dig in. I could dig in and I could find strength to carry me forward,
00:11:49.600even if I couldn't see what was below me or behind me, or I couldn't identify what was in
00:11:54.660front of me, that I could trust in myself. And that was the moment that I recognized nature as
00:12:00.660a powerful teacher. That was the lesson I needed to learn at the right time. And then fast forward
00:12:07.660to a few years ago when our nation was just, we were rocked by, with varying opinions regarding
00:12:16.560the police-involved shootings that were happening. And I live in Oakland, California, and we were
00:12:22.720bracing for public protest. You know, I believe that public protest is absolutely,
00:12:29.580it is appropriate. And I think that it's a tactic that has been effective
00:12:35.400in shifting, shifting us toward change. I felt that there was something else that Outdoor Afro0.82
00:12:43.300needed to do, and I wasn't sure what it was. And I was leaving work and, you know, seeing the city
00:12:51.080preparing and just bracing itself for violence. I just didn't, I didn't feel good about that.
00:12:58.040And I was walking to my car, the helicopters are already overhead, and it's drawings to the
00:13:05.380closed the day. So there's all this kind of frenetic energy in the streets. I asked myself,
00:13:10.720like, what am I supposed to do right now? And the answer came to me and it was, Rue, you do nature.
00:13:16.900That's your lane. So I immediately activated the local network and some of our national partners
00:13:26.060and outdoor effort leaders at the time to do healing hikes. I went out that weekend with about
00:13:32.64030 people in the Oakland Hills. We went to this clearing and we did some yoga and just
00:13:40.480some intention setting in that moment. And we went down into that Redwood Bowl and I could just feel
00:13:51.540the release of the tension, the strain. Not everybody had the same opinion. You know, these
00:13:57.700were all, you know, these were majority African-Americans, but we all had different points
00:14:02.720of view. But we were able to hear each other in a different way. Those woods were able to absorb
00:14:08.740the excess of our emotion. And as we worked our way down to that stream trails, there's a stream
00:14:17.360trail in Redwood Regional, which is a part of the East Bay Regional Park system. We stopped and we
00:14:22.900reflected. And I realized that we were doing what African Americans have always known that we could
00:14:30.220do, and that's to lay down our burdens down by the riverside. That was the moment that it became
00:14:39.780very clear to me that nature is a powerful healer. We set intentions as we ascended from that trail
00:14:49.000about what we might do in our communities, what we might do in our workplace, what we might do in
00:14:54.660our homes to affect the change that we wanted to see. It was a powerful moment. And we've been
00:15:00.780doing healing hikes ever since, and have since created some more structure around that so that
00:15:08.400leaders, if they want to have a theme around healing, that we're, you know, using accessible
00:15:15.500language and intentionally holding space for people who need it for any reason.
00:15:22.920I recently spoke with Jackie Patterson of the NAACP and a dear friend Bronte Velez about the
00:15:31.760narrative of alienation of African Americans from nature that in part is a myth that works to
00:15:39.440further alienate, but also there is truth to it, perpetuated by historical realities.
00:15:46.020And I'm wondering, from your experience, what is the pulse coming from Black youth in regards0.57
00:15:51.380to their own self-identification with nature?0.98
00:15:55.400A couple of things are true, absolutely true.
00:16:00.060Black people have always had a connection to nature.
00:16:03.200It just hasn't always looked like, you know, the single person, you know, the guy standing over the sweeping vista after he has summited the big mountain, right?
00:16:15.060So I think we have to adjust our lens, our focus to look at how people are connecting to the outdoors.
00:16:24.000And the thing that's so important for me to remember as I'm talking to people about connecting to the outdoors is that nature is not an other.
00:16:35.220It is who we are. We are nature. Our bodies are made up of water.
00:16:42.820You know, women are cycled around the moon.
00:16:45.380You know, we have so many connection points to nature.
00:16:49.080And what I hope to do is just help people to begin noticing how they already are connected.
00:16:57.360Now, when we talk about specific activities, specific locations of those activities, then we absolutely will see some of the differences surface.
00:17:09.840So, for instance, remote wild wilderness is not necessarily a place that feels safe for African-Americans to venture in alone.
00:17:22.760We can turn to the plaintive lyrics of Billie Holiday's Strange Fruit, and those lyrics are talking about lynching.
00:17:33.260It's a protest song, you know, out of just the outrage that people were experiencing, that I believe, you know, is extended to the kind of police-involved violence that we see today.
00:17:48.320And I just, I feel that, you know, we have a living generational memory of that terror in the woods.
00:17:55.460And we have those warnings from our grandparents not to go.
00:18:00.140And so that's a very valid concern, but I want to stop short of allowing that to be the reason that we invalidate or ignore or stop ourselves from meaningful connections to nature and recognize and elevate the importance of connecting to nature nearby.
00:20:04.680And I will calculate the distance that it will take to cross this abyss
00:20:12.660in your TED talk you tell about how outdoor afro is also about learning not only of ecology
00:20:27.120but of people's histories embedded within ecologies and how there is an abundance of
00:20:33.300untold stories of black history in national and state parks are there any of these stories that
00:20:39.420you'd like to share with us. I'm also wondering if you could speak about the power in reclaiming
00:20:45.080those stories for African Americans in public lands that have been manipulated or left out
00:20:51.060of the American narrative, which by and large is told through the eyes of the colonizer.
00:20:57.200That's a very important part of Outdoor Afro that we stumbled upon. You know, storytelling for us
00:21:05.000has always been who we were, but I don't think it came into focus just how important it was
00:21:11.060to dig into the narratives of these spaces, these places. And we found that once we told the stories
00:21:19.880of people who existed, who thrived, who triumphed in places, that we were not only, you know,
00:21:27.620talking about the pain body of African Americans and that story, we're talking about the generative
00:21:33.660aspects of the culture in spite of, you know, overwhelming oppression and systemic barriers.
00:21:40.640One story that comes to mind is the Monroe family who came to gold country. And we have to keep in
00:21:50.540mind that the people who made money during the cold rush were not the people who were finding
00:21:56.100gold. It was the, you know, the innkeepers, the tool makers, the clothing makers, the people who
00:22:02.120provided all of the means for people to pursue gold mining. And this very savvy entrepreneurial
00:22:09.620family, the Monroe family, former slaves, came and set up shop and were the only African-Americans
00:22:16.560in the town in Marshall, California, what is now known today as Marshall, California. And
00:22:23.320They thrived, and they were extremely well-off and were well-regarded, and today, the blacksmith shop still stands, and it was the blacksmith shop of this black family.
00:22:40.180Next door is their home that's still standing, and it's now a part of the Marshall Gold Discovery State Park, which is a California state park.
00:22:51.040It's, to me, very ironic, but not surprising that while these properties and assets belong
00:22:59.900to the Monroes, the park was named for the white guy who was their friend.
00:23:06.340And so, you know, there's erasure, you know, maybe through lack of knowledge or even intentional,
00:23:13.640it's hard to say who was at the table to make that decision on the naming.
00:23:18.960But by coming up there with African-Americans for whitewater rafting, which we do every year on the American River, to tell that story about a thriving African-American family in a location that really doesn't have an African-American community today and is a fairly conservative part of the state, makes people feel a sense of belonging and a care that comes from locating one's own history.
00:23:48.960in that place. And so we find that over and over, we have the opportunity to tell stories of
00:23:57.840African-Americans who literally lived on a place or something that they overcame in that area.
00:24:06.840Or we can remember historical figures, like a Harriet Tubman, who absolutely was a wilderness
00:24:14.260leader, who absolutely understood the earth as a resource and a respecter of the earth,
00:24:22.900but used it as a platform to help people get free.
00:24:27.720And I think that there's a big part of our work that celebrates the spirit of helping
00:24:36.100The Homestead Act of 1862 didn't include Black folks.
00:24:41.780people freshly emancipated from slavery were given pieces of abandoned land in the confederate south
00:24:48.200only for it to be taken away shortly after when pardoned plantation owners pressured the federal
00:24:53.940government so i'm wondering how do pieces of history like the homestead act that lie in an
00:25:00.760unbroken thread with more recent injustices such as redlining gentrification and police brutality
00:25:07.420continue to shape the dispossession of people of color from land?0.93
00:25:13.140We all know why African Americans are here.
00:25:16.260We were here for the purpose of providing labor to build this country into what we know it is today.
00:25:26.460There are definitely feelings that the usefulness of us in this country is differently viewed today.
00:25:36.360And there have absolutely all the things you mentioned are true, the systematic erasure and censure and terror that African-Americans have experienced in this country.
00:25:50.980You know what it makes me feel like? It makes me feel like we are amazingly resilient when you think about just making it through the middle passage and being able to still pursue education and family bonds, you know, throughout the most, the darkest periods of our lives to still have joy,
00:26:16.240To still be able to let our soul shine is a triumph with these conditions that we're talking about.
00:26:27.800And that's a big part of what this work is all about.
00:26:31.760It is about reclaiming, for sure, our ability to be connected to land in a generative way.
00:26:42.020It's also about being American because we are here. We've been here. The bones of my ancestors of the past 400 years are here. And so being out in nature, telling these stories is a way of not only our Americanness, but remembering our triumph and our potential for possibility to continue to be here in the future.
00:27:09.120I think about the redwoods, for instance, in the Oakland Hills, and I talk about how they were all clear cut in the gold rush in service of producing housing for all these miners who came to town.
00:27:27.100and now you can go to those redwoods that have regrown you know we're now we have second and
00:27:34.680third generation of redwood stands in the oakland hills and elsewhere coast redwoods and you know
00:27:41.960there's a story of regeneration and i think that nature holds lessons like that for us
00:27:48.040and it gives us hope. And it also, for me, nature is a way for us to be relieved of the stress of
00:27:58.320racism that we all live with. I don't care if you're black or white, we all feel the pressure
00:28:03.920of that cancer. And when I'm in nature, the trees do not know what color I am. The birds don't know
00:28:14.140what my gender is you know the the flowers don't know how much money I have in my bank account
00:28:19.900and so I think that we can rely also on nature to be that equalizer for us and and to just shed
00:28:28.240that weight even if it's just for an afternoon or you know a one hour stroll on a trail that
00:28:36.220possibility is there for us there is this often arising argument about how people of color
00:28:43.860and oppressed peoples in general don't have time to engage in environmental justice because they're
00:28:50.340focusing on basic matters of survival or that social justice matters are more crucial.
00:28:56.960And although I think that there is truth to these statements, I also feel that environmentalism
00:29:03.180isn't only about protecting polar bears or rainforests thousands of miles away, but also
00:29:09.040very much about hazardous waste facilities dumping toxic sludge into the sf bay or coal plants making0.86
00:29:15.140children sick and we know that environmental racism is extremely real and that people of color
00:29:21.820are disproportionately impacted by environmental degradation there's never been a separation
00:29:27.940between environmental and social justice and i don't think that there ever will be and so i'd
00:29:34.360love to hear your thoughts on this and where do you think this polarization stems from
00:29:38.840One of the challenges I have with the traditional environmental justice viewpoints is a reinstatement of the pain narrative in the outdoors and in nature.
00:29:51.860And I think we have this opportunity to help shift this narrative that the outside or where you live, you know, is a bad place, is a dangerous place.
00:30:03.000A colleague of mine put together a really wonderful curriculum, and it's available online for download called What's Good in My Hood.
00:30:13.000And it's basically a mini bio blitz that young people can do where they live to make observations of things like wildlife in their neighborhood and to start noticing, you know, how is the wildlife sustaining itself?
00:30:30.660And it moves you through this continuum of noticing, counting, and all the way to the end where you actually can write in the name of your local elected official and including the president of the United States.
00:30:46.860And so I think that we have this opportunity to have an asset-based conversation and to really get people to love what we do have.
00:30:59.480We all have something in nature to love right outside of our window, and it is absolutely true at the same time that we do have vulnerable communities living in very environmentally stressed conditions, and we absolutely have to find a way to mobilize the kind of support that's needed to transform those communities into healthier ones.
00:31:26.400Yet we also still can find ways to understand that nature is in the outdoors. The environment is not in and of itself here to harm us. And the human hands that have turned us in that direction, we also have human hands and minds that can shift us in an opposite direction.
00:31:47.340And that's the space where OutDirafro wants to be. And I just, you know, I can't say enough that, you know, we absolutely talk about nature and people and the pressing needs that individuals have in one conversation.
00:32:05.560So it's never outdoor afro out for nature's sake only, but it's about how we can be in a platform of understanding nature to better understand ourselves.
00:32:18.880in your TED talk you also speak about how it's not effective to try to rush people into
00:32:26.060conservation that relationship to place and land and community in general really is foundational
00:32:33.380so I'd really like to hear you expand on this train of thought I often will see young people
00:32:42.660for instance, be encouraged to go and take environmental action. And I think that's great
00:32:49.320to get people started at a young age, thinking about the environment, making good decisions
00:32:55.960about how to behave in a way that's environmentally conscious. What's challenging at times is when
00:33:04.520young people, especially young people of color, are asked to go out and perform conservation
00:33:12.280related activities in places they've never been. For instance, if I see kids out at a beach doing
00:33:19.340a beach cleanup, you know, my question is, have they ever played here? Have their toes ever dug
00:33:25.840into the warm sand? Have they ever laid on that beach and heard the waves and the gulls on an
00:33:33.740afternoon? Like these are the things that inspire me to want to get out and take care of a place
00:33:40.120because I have a relationship with it. And I just feel that, you know, we rush along
00:33:46.280that relationship because of, you know, it's something we feel is urgent, which is totally
00:33:54.000reasonable. There's a fair amount of philanthropic pressure, you know, so if the grant guidelines or
00:34:02.780deliverables include connecting with communities of color to do a specific activity, you know,
00:34:09.160other than people are going to create those scenarios to satisfy the funding requirement.
00:34:17.160But I think that, you know, we have to just remember why we do what we do. You know, I do
00:34:23.840this work on top of a long, long lifetime of experiences that I've threaded together
00:34:33.520that make me care for places, even places I'll never go because I understand the connection
00:34:42.160between, you know, remote wild places like the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge and, you know,
00:34:49.960Oakland, California, you know, where, you know, we see the same birds during the migratory season
00:34:55.200along the Pacific Flyway. So I just feel that, you know, we have this opportunity to
00:35:02.740to help people build relationships and on that basis of their relationship to
00:35:09.480nature, they will want to take care of it,
00:35:12.400but it's not going to happen sometimes on the timetable that we want it to
00:35:18.300happen. And, and we have to help co-create and facilitate, you know,
00:43:56.820As population continues to rise and cities become more dense, preserving and expanding
00:44:03.880urban nature becomes even more crucial.
00:44:06.360And I'm wondering about disproportionate access connected to racial segregation and justice to green spaces and cities, particularly as it ties to gentrification.
00:44:17.380And what are some of the feelings people involved in Outdoor Afro Express in regards to urban nature or in regards to connecting with nature in an urban landscape?
00:44:27.160First off, I would want to gently push back on the assumption that while different, one is not superior than the other when we compare urban nature close to home with remote capital W wilderness, right?
00:44:45.040I think it's all relative to who you are and your life experiences. And I think that's probably one of the biggest challenges that I have faced in this work where, you know, there's this hierarchical viewpoint of what nature is.
00:44:59.300And, you know, if you're not driving four hours away from your house to go to a pristine wilderness, an untrammeled by man place that you're not really doing it, you know.
00:45:15.760And so I wanted to make sure that we're we keep the legitimacy and validity of local nature right in front of people, because the fact is, is there's wildlife all around us.
00:45:28.180You may not see it, but it's all around us. I mean, it is, it's, it's, it's a part of the
00:45:35.400lived experience, no matter where you are, you know, do you necessarily have habitat for it in
00:45:40.620your house? No. But, you know, you go outside in the evening and you're going to run into perhaps
00:45:46.780a skunk, an opossum, deer, raccoons, you know, there's just wildlife everywhere. And of course,
00:45:54.480birds. Birds are everywhere. All you have to do is look up. And so I just, I love to shine a big
00:46:00.940light and help people, you know, recognize that we have so much diversity of nature. I mean,
00:46:06.580even just walking my dog in the neighborhood, noticing, you know, the life cycle of plants
00:46:12.040from, you know, seed to bloom or perennials or, you know, just the smells, you know, in the air,
00:46:19.500especially this time of year as we're on the verge of things blooming. There's so much to
00:46:24.520notice and appreciate close to home. And that said, you know, I have had challenges with
00:46:30.740some of the ways that communities who have waited and worked and advocated for even, you know,
00:46:39.580for north of a decade, even in some cases, for that park to be in their neighborhood long past
00:46:45.980the time when their children could actually play in it, right? That those areas that have green
00:46:52.020spaces absolutely are more desirable to live in and can accelerate gentrification because property
00:47:01.380values are going to increase with the proximity and the walkability of green spaces nearby.
00:47:08.520And it absolutely creates economic pressure on the people who live in those communities where these changes occur.
00:47:17.340And I think that if we're going to advocate for green spaces to be in closer proximity where people live, we have to also think about displacement and talk about displacement in the same conversation.
00:47:34.640You know, there's a kind of a anecdotal understanding in Oakland where I live that if you see bike lanes, then you know, you know, gentrification is coming soon in your neighborhood.
00:47:47.720And because, you know, bike lanes just appear out of nowhere and there isn't, you know, community engagement.
00:47:54.500It's a good thing for more people to ride their bikes.
00:47:57.100Yes, we all can probably agree with that.
00:47:59.680But unless we actually have communities authoring how these decisions are made and how they're implemented where they live, then we're going to see a huge disconnection between how people use them, appreciate them.
00:48:18.500And I think that, you know, it's the same thing is true with green spaces in my observations.
00:48:22.860We have a long way to go, but it's a challenging phenomenon that I don't think could have been foreseen at the time when people were advocating for parks close to home, what these specific outcomes would be, and the awareness that we have today of the crush of population influx into urban areas is.
00:48:46.720something you brought up at the beginning of our conversation and there's two things that I want
00:48:54.100to speak of one that there's often times where potentially a person of color may not feel safe
00:49:01.260going out into the wilderness alone and then potentially this fear of violence or you know
00:49:09.880needing protection and then there's also this other point that you mentioned about I think gun
00:49:15.120violence or police brutality, I don't remember which one. And so when I'm thinking about these
00:49:21.040feelings of not feeling safe, and the atmospheres of persistent violence and racial profiling,
00:49:27.700and I would love to hear your opinion on how more people in connection with the earth
00:49:38.380Violence, you know, it sometimes doesn't take the form of physical violence. You know, I'm not sure
00:49:44.960if you're familiar with the term microaggressions, it shows up most of the time. And for most people
00:49:51.040when challenged in nature, looking more like, oh, so who are you here with? Why are you here?
00:49:59.180Is what group is this? You know, getting questioned, getting stares, people acting fearful
00:50:06.240of you, people over-welcoming you. That's a thing, getting over-welcomed
00:50:12.760in a place. So I think we all have a part to play in a couple of ways. One, I hope that in the work
00:50:22.320of Outdoor Afro that I'm helping people feel a sense of agency, ownership, and belonging in
00:50:29.580places that they can begin to to use and be in in the safety of a group that shows them how right
00:50:38.080and that through that experience they can go back on their own and we see this all the time we see
00:50:44.100people all the time like show us pictures and you know we've seen other groups form that go to places
00:50:51.360we've been and so we really hope to pioneer in people's lives the connection to nature if it's
00:50:57.700been disrupted and celebrate those who have that existing connection. And then I think that from
00:51:03.760the side of folks who are, you know, frequent users, who are not people of color to just be
00:51:12.100ordinary. We want people outside in nature in proportion to their population and their1.00
00:51:21.660opportunity, and it not being a big deal. And so I think that's the not do do that I would say
00:51:28.460is important. You know, it's just being with people, being with people and allowing people
00:51:35.700to be in nature is something that we absolutely feel is important and valuable.
00:51:43.060Thank you for bringing up the microaggressions. Here I was thinking on a different scale,
00:51:48.700And just to hear the many levels in which violence can play out and divisiveness can play out is so important to take in, not just intellectually, but somatically, because how we interact with each other often leads to separation. And so I feel like that's a really important point.
00:52:14.140Yeah, I'll tell you kind of a funny story really quick, if I've got time to illustrate my point. So I get out in nature, you know, pretty frequently. And it's, it's a wonderful tribute to the work. But I can see that if it wasn't me, how it could be viewed differently. And that is, oh, wow, have you heard about this group, Outdoor Afro?
00:52:35.340and you know so people know about outdoor afro um and want to rightfully connect me with outdoor
00:52:43.600afro not knowing you know that i'm i am outdoor afro basically but you know it's that kind of a
00:52:48.460call out i don't know what all would be welcomed if you're just out trying to have a peaceful
00:52:53.920walk you know you might not want to join outdoor afro you may not you may have your own thing
00:53:00.240going on, you know, and I could see how someone in a very well-meaning way would want to make
00:53:05.680that connection. But it's something that I've heard frequently enough that I know it's happening
00:53:10.060to other people. From what I gather, outdoor Afro has already sparked so much connection
00:53:18.380in communities all around the country. I want to hear your thoughts on how you see this expanding
00:53:24.180and growing. You know, what is your hope of this work for the future? I've heard people talk about
00:53:32.700obsolescence, right? Like, will we always have to have a group like Outdoor Afro? Like, will we have,0.97
00:53:38.720you know, this wonderful moment where it just won't need to be anymore? And I think that Outdoor
00:53:44.560Afro will persist by virtue of the fact that there's something really powerful about building
00:53:52.800community and leadership in nature that looks like you. And there's really, there's no other
00:54:00.300place that I've found that exists in this way that allows people who are African-American to
00:54:07.720show up fully. Our leadership team is comprised of men and women from so many different backgrounds,
00:54:15.440so many different experiences, class differences, you name it.
00:54:21.720Got everybody in Outdoor Afro and they all share two things.
00:54:26.780They share being black and having a fire in their belly to connect people to nature.
00:54:32.440But everything else is up for grabs in terms of identities.
00:54:39.860And I think that, you know, biggering for biggering sake is not the goal.
00:54:44.420The goal for us is to deepen, you know, what we have.
00:54:49.140And one of the ways that I hope to do so is for Outdoor Afro to acquire land.
00:54:54.540I want to recreate what was given to me that has blessed me immensely growing up is that home place.
00:55:03.720is someplace where we can go and be surrounded and enriched by the stories, by the food, by the art
00:55:15.000of African-American culture, while also being a platform for bio blitzes and learning how to do
00:55:24.900outdoor skills like make a fire, growing food. There's just, I believe, an opportunity to create
00:55:33.060a true demonstration site as well as a retreat from racism in nature. Someplace where you know
00:55:41.260you can go and you're not going to get the inquisitive stare. You're not going to get
00:55:46.460questioned about why you're there or whose group is this. And you can just be in a place that's
00:55:54.020welcome to everybody. It's something that I really hope to leave as part of my legacy
00:56:00.880for outdoor Afro and that can continue to expand well after my time is up. But that's what's on my
00:56:11.160mind about place and space because we borrow public lands to do our activities and I'm grateful
00:56:19.020for that. But because they're public lands, parks, national parks, regional, BLM, you can't do
00:56:28.380everything everywhere. And I think that there's just something really important about having a
00:56:35.100place to call home, given the ways that African-Americans have been separated time and
00:56:42.440again and again and again from home, from our mother Africa, from what we were promised in the
00:56:51.540form of 40 acres and a mule, to redlining, to the recent loan crisis. We've had just waves of
00:57:02.960separation. And I think that having an outdoor Afro home place that everybody can call home
00:57:09.040will be really powerful. When I think about where we're headed, permanency and deeper connection.
00:57:21.540All the levels that you've shared with us
00:57:50.960of the microaggressions and then the macroaggressions and all of the pieces in between
00:57:57.600and how actually having a permanent place to just be with the land, with the plants,
00:58:05.840with the sky, with growing food and learning these skills just feels so right.
00:58:12.560Well, I'm so glad to share. And I think it's so important to share your dreams and your visions
00:58:17.760Because, you know, you just never know. You just never know how the ripples, you know, I've been doing this long enough to just appreciate the connectivity and to invite people into your dreams, you know, what that means.
00:58:31.620And so I very much appreciate your words of support because it's going to require, you know, so much more than me to make happen.
00:58:41.040So we invite everyone to engage at whatever level they like with Outdoor Afro.
00:58:47.840I always let people know that you don't have to have an Afro to be a part of Outdoor Afro.
00:58:52.760We welcome anyone who has an affinity for this work that we do and supports it.
00:59:00.240But I also just want to remind us to take care of ourselves and don't be so hard on yourself.
00:59:07.020You know, I know we're grappling with a lot right now, a lot of change, a lot of uncertainty.
00:59:13.920We owe it to ourselves to remember our love for nature and our love for one another and importantly, the love of ourselves and have faith that it's going to be OK.
00:59:32.440Thank you for listening to For the Wild podcast.