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00:02:49.660so it seems for me belonging needs to be stretched out to take in alien others that we would never
00:03:01.480have admitted if we had our head set on straight but belonging has to be blasted open to accommodate
00:03:09.660others exquisite others i'm wondering you know if we were to describe democracy without words
00:03:17.040It's something, if I were to try and dance democracy or draw democracy or eat democracy, you know, it's something, it's moving into that kind of domain for me if we extract bureaucracy from democracy.
00:03:33.220certainly the most important lesson from our impermanence that we can derive is our acceptance
00:03:44.860of fluidity things will change they will flow they will go from one to the next
00:03:50.660and it's when you flow that you can actually accommodate others
00:03:55.780for the wild is honored to present the edges in the middle a series of conversations between
00:04:04.760bio okomalafe and thought companions like john a powell v naomi klein and more these limited
00:04:12.400episodes have been adapted from bios work as the global senior fellow at uc berkeley's othering
00:04:17.700and belonging institute in this role bio has been holding a series of public conversations
00:04:40.660Bio's conversations encourage us to rethink justice,
00:04:44.200hope, and belonging by sitting amidst the noise,
00:04:47.600not trying to cover it up with pleasant rhythms.
00:04:49.620To learn more about the Democracy and Belonging Forum, visit democracyandbelongingforum.org.
00:05:01.640This recording features BIO's conversations with Mina Salami and Professor Madulika Banerjee.0.89
00:05:08.380Mina is a Nigerian, Finnish, and Swedish feminist author and social critic.0.86
00:05:12.440Her research focuses on Black feminist theory, contemporary African thought, and the politics of knowledge production.
00:05:19.620Madhu Lika is a professor at the Department of Political Science at the University of Delhi.
00:05:25.080Her research interests center on the politics of knowledge and its roles in shaping the discourse and practice of development, with a particular focus on the global south.
00:05:49.620Good evening. Hello. Hi, good evening to everyone on this fugitive channel. We're beaming from the
00:06:04.660underground and through the cracks and inviting conversation, difficult conversations, the edges
00:06:13.820in the middle. My name remains Bayar Komalafe, and I'm here with two very, very dear sisters
00:06:22.780of mine, and their preciousness to me and their work is of these times, their thought
00:06:34.520and their explorations and their inquiry. There was no way there were not going to be guests
00:06:39.840and co-participants in this co-creation of possibility.
00:08:08.700to do things with the world that our academic work
00:08:12.900and our activisms may not have space for.
00:08:17.380So this is a space for radical and exquisite becomeings.
00:08:27.300And speaking of radical and exquisite becomeings, this conversation in particular around democracy and its exquisite other wants to do something and hold space for questions that I think are increasingly vital now and urgent.
00:08:50.960something happened a couple of days ago in france as as most of us or everyone here knows
00:08:59.900there is fire on the mountain right and this is not limited to france this is spreading but that
00:09:10.520has to be held in context with larger trends and observations about democracy
00:09:17.680democracy as a system of governance democracy as a power sharing format
00:09:24.900democracy as the presupposition of the primacy of the citizen
00:09:30.140there is a sense in which one might say that democracy is shrinking if you will and
00:09:40.300studies showing the diminishing trust in democratic institutions.
00:09:51.520Those studies are just symptomatic of what is happening at large. And so what we're here to
00:09:56.560do together is to probe, is to co-examine this thing that is happening and to see what might
00:10:05.300want to emerge then, not to displace or to replace or to go beyond democracy. I'm not ready to do
00:10:15.360that yet. I don't even know what a beyond democracy looks like at the moment. But at least to touch
00:10:24.120the demise, as it seems, the demise of this paradigm, and to have questions about how
00:10:33.320people in the global South have experienced democracy, especially to wonder if there aren't
00:10:40.140other ways of being in power together with each other and together with the world that is
00:10:47.200creeping up through the cracks of these times. So with that, I would like to bring
00:12:17.240And I really welcome this forum, this opportunity for us to talk and share our ideas with others who are listening and watching.
00:12:31.700Because I think we represent very self-consciously voices that are not often heard and need to be heard.
00:12:43.480because they have wisdom, experience, forbearance
00:12:49.960and a lot to offer to the world as it is now.
00:12:57.000And to ideas like democracy and freedom and progress,
00:13:05.460there's a lot that these voices can contribute to.
00:13:11.920So, yes, I thank you for, you know, creating this opportunity where we can chat together, what you call an Mbari chat, my own grammar of Bangla, in which we call it an Adda, where friends sit together and, yeah, it could be chicken, it could be tea.
00:13:34.040And you talk about things that you share in the hope for doing things better and together.
00:13:41.920Yes, yes, yes. Thank you, my dear sisters. And this is the first time we are on this platform having a three-way conversation. And this would, of course, this has informed the time. So we usually have this within an hour. We're stretching to 90 minutes to hold the juiciness and the robustness of what we want to explore today. And I'm really glad we're doing this together.
00:14:08.240Let me start things out by situating with our proposition. I was just on a call just prior to this, and I shared with them that I woke up yesterday and was alerted to a paper, a scientific report, by a Jeff Morgan from the National Museum in California with an intriguing premise.
00:14:36.800And so this dude has studied over 50,000 years the correlation between the rise and fall of temperature and the shrinkage of brains, right?
00:14:54.900So what he is finding, what this research team is finding, is that in warmer temperatures, when the earth gets warmer, our brains shrink, right?
00:15:12.620And I just want to leave that there for a moment.
00:15:15.300When climate warming and global warming happens, the brain capacitor reduces, if you will.
00:15:23.540That's so layered on many levels. There's so much we can do with that. But it ignited a different question for me, right? And we'll enter into the definitional aspects of democracy, but let's get into a conversation and see what ignites from here.
00:15:39.500And maybe I'll start with you, Madilika. Could it be that we are, that our practices of democracy, how we see democracy, how we think about democracy, could it be that democracy is just as much an organic responsivity to these times and it's shriveling up as the earth gets hotter, so to speak?
00:16:06.500Could it be that in some senses, this decline in trust in democratic institutions, this rise in the big man, in the populist movements, fascist undertakings, could it be that we're seeing these events and it's correlated with rising global temperatures?
00:16:31.740Could it be that democracy is at risk and it's facing extinction?
00:16:38.900What does that ignite for you, listening to that?
00:16:43.020I think that for so long we have been talking about democracy.
00:16:50.340And if we even go back to the most banal but very significant definition
00:16:59.220of the people, for the people, by the people kind of thing.
00:17:05.420I think we need to understand that we have forgotten
00:17:10.480the part of by the people and of the people.
00:17:16.860We have focused on democracy for the people,
00:17:21.440which is okay, which is good, because all people need democracy
00:17:25.780and all democratic institutions should try to provide it
00:17:31.880and protect it as much as possible for the people.
00:17:35.740But I think that democracy is something that people can construct
00:17:39.700for themselves and that they can continue to construct
00:17:44.160and continue to contribute towards a democratic undertaking
00:18:32.280There is a way in which the human being is at even deal with nature.
00:18:40.340And so, even though human beings have utilized nature,
00:18:45.820have been dependent on nature, have worshipped nature for that reason,
00:18:49.960but have always known that they have power over nature.
00:18:55.400But because human cultures in so many parts of the globe
00:19:02.240were extremely respectful of the same nature which they could have power over,
00:19:09.360that respect meant that they kept themselves at least at even keel with nature,
00:19:16.340never trying to plunder, use but not abuse.
00:19:19.960So, this, of course, enabled them to produce so much, to create such beauty, to create so much abundance, to create wealth.
00:19:32.400But nature was never destroyed in that process.
00:19:35.600I think that in building all the other dimensions of modernity, of development, and so on, we have somewhere lost this particular aspect of a democratic relationship with Asia.
00:19:54.440Reams and reams have been written on this.
00:19:58.440But to link with your question about what is happening today about democracy being in danger and how that links with what I'm saying, is that the kind of democracy that we think ought to be built today always rides on the back of a modernist notion of prosperity.
00:20:24.200okay there you go so the big man becomes big because he promises that prosperity
00:20:37.880on the basis of which you can anticipate a democracy whereas and that is accompanied
00:20:46.740by the claim that nobody could do this for you i'm going to do this for you
00:22:11.140So, if people, those very people who are supposed to be constituent of the democracy are not respected as human beings with a mind, you have been shrinking their minds for a long time.
00:22:30.380And the entire process of prosperity building has been contributing to global warming that we know independently anyway.
00:22:41.140so global warming is happening on the one end
00:22:44.440while actually you have been shrinking
00:25:40.760with a window on both ends, so two windows.
00:25:45.200And if you look at the window on the right, let's say,
00:25:49.560you would see a raging fire, you know,
00:25:52.800war, destruction, the erosion of our forests, our rivers, our mountains, and so on. So everything
00:25:59.940catastrophic, all the poly crisis, all of that, one window. And if you walked over to the other
00:26:06.440end as this collective organism and looked out of that window, there would be, imagine you see
00:26:13.560this immense beauty, you know, our planet thriving, humanity elevated and elated, knowledge of the
00:26:21.400mind body and the soul being championed democracy in its best form being practiced and as Madulika
00:26:29.460was speaking the image started to shapeshift for me following from what you had said Bayo and I
00:26:34.900thought about how you know at the moment we have I believe it is about 30 percent of the world is
00:26:42.060under authoritarian rule which is a massive increase if you compare it to a decade ago
00:26:49.220And it seems as though you could sort of say that we are shifting, this organism is shifting towards the window that faces the fire, that faces destruction, that faces the declining of democracy.
00:27:03.340but a huge part of that in this is in response to your question to me because there are various
00:27:11.080reasons yes climate change and it's a sort of shrinking of the organism shrinking of the brain
00:27:15.440shrinking of the world shrinking of the house that we're all in right even agency a shrinking
00:27:21.040of agency yes precisely um but one very massive part of this shrinking is eurocentrism and the way
00:27:30.680that, you know, it has been decades, centuries, soon probably millennia of our trying to end
00:27:42.000the imperialist forces of Eurocentrism and the way that Eurocentrism shapeshifts and
00:27:51.160convolutes and contorts and distorts notions such as democracy. Because I do very much think that
00:28:01.920with democracy, the Eurocentric impulse is very easily transmitted into this form of governance,
00:28:12.940you know, with its impulse to sort of assert itself as an empire. And so the way that we
00:28:20.020could associate democracy today is, we can associate it with neoliberal capitalism, for
00:28:26.300example, that of course is connected to and stems from the Enlightenment and a lot of
00:28:33.780the thinking of the Enlightenment that conceived of the human in a particular way and freedom
00:28:40.240of speech in a particular way and knowledge in a particular way and all of these things
00:28:44.820that have been immensely problematic and destructive for the collective organism.
00:28:51.140That said, I find that it is important for me anyway, as I think about democracy,
00:28:58.600to make the distinction between, let's call it, bureaucracy, maybe we can call it.
00:29:08.280So there's bureaucracy, and then there's the democracy for the people, of the people.
00:29:14.820Which, as an African, as a Nigerian specifically, you know, when I've gone to vote in Nigeria, for instance, and it's almost as though people vote with their entire bodies.
00:29:28.900You know, there's this exuberance about being able to participate in shaping the politics of your society.
00:29:36.600and and that for me says that there's something almost instinctive about democracy uh to to the
00:29:44.160pursuit of i mean freedom is not because again then with going back to the enlightenment and
00:29:50.180all of that but yeah there's something very embodied joyous and of course it is then often
00:29:56.460completely met with corruption with violence and so on but just that impulse toward democracy
00:30:04.780that I've witnessed in Nigeria and that I seem to see in all of the so-called global south when
00:30:11.100the opportunity arises. It's something that I find juxtaposes bureaucracy so massively and
00:30:17.140it really troubles me that I guess it also corresponds well with this house of the very
00:30:22.660different worlds that we are faced with. I like that helpful distinction between
00:34:16.760And to link with what I was saying earlier, these are the people who have been enfranchised
00:34:25.960by their ability to participate in the elections.
00:34:30.780You see them as human beings who are, for me, carriers of very deep knowledges.
00:34:40.460They have been disenfranchised by the process of development.
00:34:45.100And the entire history of 75 years of post-colonial India has been this struggle between one kind of enfranchisement on the one hand and another kind of disenfranchisement on the other.
00:35:02.480And I think that the fact that people continue to participate in what makes them enfranchised, even as they are continually, you know, marginalized, invisibilized by the system, is a remarkable testament.
00:39:06.980participation commensurate to a materiality of democracy, right? I think it's quite evident in
00:39:15.140the regions, the worlds that we come from, that there is a resilience. There's a story of this
00:39:21.200Nigerian woman who came out to vote. I mean, I don't know if you saw this, the recent, the February
00:39:26.700elections in Nigeria, February 25th, and she came out to vote and she was beaten by people who work
00:39:35.240for the ruling party and almost lost her eye. She went home, dressed herself up and came out
00:39:44.080again to vote. You know, she insisted and she was carried on, you know, became a media project
00:39:51.540and almost a meme, you know, with that bandage on her eye saying, I will vote.
00:39:57.260And this happens again and again. This resilience is exploited and almost used as a resource base to fund and nurture bully systems. Again, regimes that do not care for people.
00:40:15.180And I'm wondering about this one-sided notion of democracy that celebrates resilience, but doesn't actually translate into, I dare use the word power or the term or the phrase power equity.
00:40:32.160It doesn't translate to agency, the spaciousness and the wonder.
00:40:36.620So I'm critical, I'm wondering about this materiality of democracy, like as a spatial temporal arrangement.
00:40:45.180It cannot simply be civic participation, can it?
00:40:48.440We have to take into consideration democratic institutions.
00:40:51.780We have to take into consideration post-humanist, you know, infiltrations around us.
00:40:57.540I'm wondering where does democracy lie if we notice that it cannot simply be one aspect of a spectrum of things?0.55
00:41:07.920yeah i think that's why what really came to me was this image of people as madulika also so
00:41:16.200beautifully explored like the image of people in our parts of the world and in movement in festival
00:41:23.480in right and festival not you know tradition of festival and masquerades and ritual is not always
00:41:30.760one that is peaceful or joyous. It can also really be eruptive and bring out all of those
00:41:39.260shadow sides of society that we're trying to hide and that are indeed very oppressive and violent.
00:41:46.580And it sort of all really comes to the fore. And I guess you said, Bayo, that maybe democracy
00:41:53.160isn't for us. And I think that that's a statement that we really need to take seriously, you know,
00:42:00.920in our societies, in our social criticisms, in our dialogues, in our embodied explorations,
00:42:08.280because there is something to that that is true. But then on the other hand, I still want to go
00:42:14.100back in thinking about the materiality of democracy and expanding not beyond democracy
00:42:23.840but beyond the materiality of it because maybe there is where we can find a way to not get stuck
00:42:32.600in the idea that democracy is not for us okay thank you let's do this um in this way i would
00:42:42.340like each of us to pose a question to another, right? So, well, I mean, I don't know when in
00:42:50.960Nigeria, did you play that, was it called Jangoroba or something? Do you know Jangoroba?
00:42:55.820You don't know Jangoroba? No, I don't know Jangoroba. What's that?
00:42:59.160That horrible playground thing where you sat, there was a slide which always burned your behind
00:43:31.040And I'd like you to articulate from the heart of your project
00:43:35.480The things that keep you up at night, diffractively with this theme of democracy and its exquisite others. Pose a question for someone else here. And let's see if we can rotate our questions in this way. And then we'll come back and see what happens. I've asked questions so far. Who would like to go?
00:43:57.440i have a question um for madulika first have a comment the prayer that you say you recite every
00:44:05.880day i think you know it's something that should be disseminated you know if we all could recall
00:44:12.820that we are these elements and i love that in hinduism that you have five and that space
00:44:17.800is also an element then i think we would we would just operate and relate to one another
00:44:26.900and to our planet in very different ways.
00:44:30.620And yet that said, and this is my question
00:47:05.120nature is I certainly don't know enough to be able to claim that it is democratic and I certainly
00:47:14.040know it in the way that you do actually and I see that there are so many processes which are very
00:47:23.180harsh within nature which don't seem like democratic at all but the one thing that I do know
00:47:31.940I do understand, and I'm sure this is something you shared as well, is that in nature, violence between species, within species, is recognized and allowed within the limits of basic need.
00:47:58.680in terms of, you know, when there is hunger
00:48:03.520or when you need to protect your young.
00:48:07.440There are very clear rules for when any kind of violence is allowed.
00:52:02.260Let me dance with that. Let me dance with that.
00:52:05.180Democracy and belonging, there's something deeply aspirational in that framework.
00:52:12.400the longing for a world where everyone has agency right um everyone has a say and everyone has a
00:52:26.560seat um i i'm exhausted with the idea of the seat at the table and no but but there you go i'll just
00:52:36.380use it. But the idea of belonging, of course, in the ways that Elder John Powell and many of
00:52:43.600the scholars that have nourished this ground together, that idea of belonging just goes beyond
00:52:50.380can we all get along? No. It notices disparities, unevenness. It notices how things move in and come
00:52:59.540out. It notices how paradigms die and paradigms swell in their place, but it still longs for a
00:53:08.560world that is free from the horrors of hierarchical arrangements where bodies are racialized according
00:53:18.680to various attributes that they seemingly possess, according to one sensorial affinity
00:53:26.440to that aspect, right? Whether it's pigmentation or something else. So belonging wants to do that.
00:53:33.960And coupling with democracy is, of course, noticing that there is a sense in which democracy
00:53:41.480brings together our best political skills. It brings together the best of us. If we can
00:53:51.040furnish the world with a system that allows belonging to thrive, that would be democracy.
00:53:58.880That would be the definition of democracy to aspire to. My questions here, the work that I'm
00:54:06.660trying to articulate here, or what I'm trying to notice and observe and put to writing and text
00:54:15.880and questions and conversation, is noticing that the vote is dying.
00:54:23.120And by the vote, I mean the materiality that made democracy
00:54:27.580as a people project possible, as an anthropocentric project.
00:54:34.480That materiality is fading away, if you will.
00:54:38.960Democracy has always been tied to the citizen, right?
00:54:42.300to the citizen, to the sovereignty of the citizen. And the way the citizen practices this sovereignty
00:54:49.940is by voting. So there's something about the electoral process that seems to be interwoven
00:54:55.740with the heart of democracy, right? One man, one vote, as is often said. But I think that every
00:55:04.620monolith, every political arrangement is indebted to unequal circumstances,
00:55:10.720is indebted to flows, is indebted to riverine phenomena, is indebted to the world in its
00:55:18.980post-humanism. And in some sense, what I started out with by noticing the shrinking of brains
00:55:26.040and how the Anthropocene is not just a geological epoch, not just a climatic condition,
00:55:34.960It is thought. The Anthropocene is thought. In some sense, the space of the citizen is shrinking rapidly. And the unevenness, like the tree branch that sucker punched my sister, sorry about that.
00:55:56.760I apologize on behalf of all nature for that. The tree branch is part of this arrangement,
00:56:07.120it's part of democracy, right? It's part of how we have made a clearing in the wilds and tried
00:56:13.200to forge a political project in that clearing. But the wilds are now encroaching on that clearing
00:56:19.340and the space of the citizen, which has always been a humanist project, is giving way to something
00:56:26.060else. And we're not exactly sure what is being born here. We no longer have a confident response
00:56:33.120to the question, what is power and who has power any longer? Because power doesn't seem to be even
00:56:39.960in the colonizer's hand, right? It doesn't seem to be in IMF's hand or the World Bank's hand.
00:56:45.320We now have to bring in, into the demos of democracy, microbes and bacteria and fungi
00:56:52.160and the coronavirus. So it seems for me belonging needs to be stretched out to take in alien others0.97
00:57:02.620that we would never have admitted if we had our heads set on straight. Belonging has to be blasted0.77
00:57:10.900open to accommodate others, exquisite others. So freedom will look radically different from how we0.80
00:57:16.960perceive it right now. Perhaps freedom might actually be the postponement of the exquisite.
00:57:24.320Democracy seems to be doing that right at this moment. We are yearning for some kind of fellowship.
00:57:30.560We're yearning for a different kind of embodiment that is not available in our political practices.
00:57:35.500The left and the right are doing the same thing. We're stuck, right? And now in the spaces of
00:57:42.780democratic impasses. We're seeing the rise of fascist
01:00:01.820placed outside your home so that you remember it as you go out and see it as you go in
01:00:07.520and every day it is done anew that's the kola that's the kola that's the kola you know what's
01:00:14.640so fascinating about this art which is a multi-species art arrangement is i learned that
01:00:22.120the rice flour feeds the ants as well it's ant agency it's a feminist arrangement it's a0.93
01:00:30.540multi-species arrangement. And it seems to me to be this collective yearning for an arrangement0.72
01:00:36.780that is yet to come. It is temporal and fleeting. It is not stable or permanent like some monolith
01:00:44.000that insists that this is the political arrangement for all time, right? It flows.
01:00:49.600The wind participates in this art project. I don't know what is to come. I do feel in a
01:00:58.080creaturely fragile way that settlement is heaving and breathing and burdened with its
01:01:06.240migrancy, that settlement is becoming migrant, that we are becoming fugitive, that the city
01:01:14.260can no longer endorse our continuity. And so the space of the citizen, the project of the city,0.99
01:01:22.820is shrinking. And all I can put in the space of what is yet to come is a kolam, is this thing0.93
01:01:30.080that we don't know the name of, right? So that is belonging. Belonging looks like kolam to me.
01:01:35.460It looks like ants participating in wind and tree branches sucker-punching my dear sister's face.0.99
01:01:44.740I'm really struck by this practice. It sounds incredible and I'm looking forward to learning
01:01:50.460more about it, but it immediately makes me think of sort of dendritic fractal patterns
01:01:56.460that exist in so much of nature, including human nature, right? In our lungs and every part of our
01:02:07.200bodies, really, our veins, everything. And how that too isn't anything static, right? In the way
01:02:15.080that bringing us back to democracy maybe that you know democracy also shouldn't be seen as
01:02:21.280something static and and that's the terrible thing about bureaucracy because it tries to force it
01:02:27.800into this rigid box right of rigid participatory function that excludes initially you know women
01:02:36.940and then people who are non-european and yes i concur completely with you bio that you know we
01:02:44.460We are invited to bring in other species into our way of doing democracy.
01:02:50.920But, you know, we haven't even yet invited children, for example, to participate in democracy as they should, let alone other animals.
01:03:00.900And last week, Madulika was also present when one of our co-fellows, Frederick, shared a project whereby they were trying to understand the language of sperm whales through southern technology and eventually, you know, maybe getting them to be able to respond to questions about democracy.
01:03:24.960So it's definitely something that we should continue to keep as a feasible thought.
01:03:31.260But the question is how, and maybe, you know, the column and the fractal patterns that exist in the world can help us with that project.
01:03:41.700I think the important thing, you know, is to believe in fluidity.
01:03:52.360The reason that bureaucracy tries to pin us down, as you were just saying, and to box us into, is because we believe, and very foolishly, that structures bring certainty, and certainty will lead to some kind of permanence.
01:04:18.940And every philosophy that we have inherited asks us to begin with the assumption,
01:04:25.920with the understanding that everything is impermanent.
01:04:30.520And we sort of dismiss that as, oh, that's some kind of spiritual belief.
01:04:35.900It's not. It's the biggest truth in the world that nothing is permanent.
01:04:40.980So if we don't need to become fatalistic as a result of that, but certainly the most important lesson from our impermanence that we can derive is our acceptance of fluidity.
01:04:59.080Things will change, they will flow, they will go from one to the next.
01:05:03.880And it's when you flow that you can actually accommodate others.
01:05:38.120others and the fact that we think that you know that when we say childlike curiosity
01:05:46.080or behaving without guile if somebody is guileless then that's childlike
01:05:53.540which means that it's something that needs to be overcome but that it can flow into
01:06:01.100you know an aspect of adulthood which can be an asset and therefore contribute to a different
01:06:09.320understanding of correlation between human beings we are so afraid yeah like what we're
01:06:17.360desperately missing is that as bio pointed out earlier like democracy is not just about the vote
01:06:24.200It's not just about the civic participation. It's also about creating columns and children playing and adults behaving in childlike ways and meditation and maybe even prayer.
01:06:38.520Like all of these human practices that are fluid, but that are also about, in some sense, deep in our historical nature, our character, is something about preservation as well.
01:06:54.540You know, we need and perhaps we we get it wrong in so far that we think that this need for preservation, this need to to remember, to have memory, to have continuity is something that we can actually institutionalize and turn into numbers when actually that is ephemeral, beautiful part of being human.
01:07:16.700And, yeah, we really desperately need to make space for that in the democratic project, for the aesthetic, the art, the mysterious and the mystical and the metaphysical, all of these elements that are just as true of our lived realities as is the act of waking up one morning and signing, putting your finger stamp or writing something on a card and putting it in a ballot box.
01:07:46.140You know, it's equally real that you relate with others, you relate with your environment.
01:07:52.820And we need that in the spaces where we're discussing democracy and how to further democracy.