If Books Could Kill - Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus

00:00:00.000 Peter. Michael. What do you know about a book called Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus?

00:00:05.420 Let me guess. Women Be Shoppin', the book. 1.00

00:00:08.460 you know as as famous as this book is and as much as the title sort of

00:00:28.980 makes it clear what it's about i don't really know anything about it this is according to some

00:00:35.280 sources the best-selling non-fiction book of all time other than the bible but then you get into

00:00:42.260 a whole thing about bible fiction yeah yeah this book was published in 1992 it basically came out

00:00:49.540 without any splash nobody noticed it the author john gray had published two self-help books before

00:00:55.060 to no acclaim or notice whatsoever and then a year went by and then he was featured on donahue

00:01:02.480 And then the book ended up on the New York Times bestseller list for 200 weeks.

00:01:08.500 There's also a bunch of – like as a book, this has more just weird spinoffs.

00:01:14.000 So there was a syndicated TV talk show co-hosted by John Gray and Sybil Shepard.

00:01:21.200 There was a Las Vegas show.

00:01:24.920 There was a board game.

00:01:26.540 There was a CD-ROM with, quote, role-playing and punchy graphics, according to USA Today, that cost $49.95 in, like, 1990s dollars.

00:01:38.340 And then, according to John Gray, this book was such a big deal that judges used to require couples to read it before allowing them to divorce.

00:01:47.180 Oh, my God.

00:01:47.800 So, who knows if that's true?

00:01:49.220 I mean, we'll get into John Gray's relationship with the truth.

00:01:52.600 But, like, this was something that was really popular.

00:01:54.840 And the context of this book is also like a weird wave of gender essentialist books that came out in the early 1990s.

00:02:03.840 So there was a really famous one that used a lot of scientific research called You Just Don't Understand.

00:02:09.560 There's a book called Brain Sex.

00:02:11.240 There's one called Sex on the Brain. 0.53

00:02:13.080 There's one written by Sacha Baron Cohen's cousin called The Essential Difference.

00:02:19.280 There's one called Why Men Don't Iron.

00:02:21.760 And then the best one that I found was one called If Men Could Talk.

00:02:26.200 Good Lord. 0.68

00:02:27.140 Gender essentialist cinematic universe. 1.00

00:02:30.140 Just as off-putting to me as the Marvel one, frankly. 0.99

00:02:32.820 So, okay, you did something very smart and useful in our episode about The Secret where you walked me through, like, the emotional experience of reading the book.

00:02:42.440 This is what we're going to do for the entire episode.

00:02:44.460 I'm just going to walk you through, like, what I was thinking, what I was learning as I was going through this book roughly chronologically.

00:02:50.960 Okay. So the full title of the book is Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus,

00:02:55.420 A Practical Guide to Improving Your Communication and Getting What You Want in Your Relationship.

00:03:00.700 Okay. Improving your communication and getting what you want seem like two different things,

00:03:05.440 but okay. We're already finding some tensions. So I read the, I think it's like the 20th anniversary

00:03:10.560 edition of this book. So it starts with a preface by John Gray where he lays out like what he was

00:03:16.380 trying to do and the purpose of the book he says the same issues that would frustrate me 23 years

00:03:23.280 ago in my relationship with my wife bonnie are the same issues that occasionally come up today

00:03:27.440 the difference today is that i'm more tolerant accepting and understanding i can more correctly

00:03:32.320 interpret her words and reactions and know better how to respond this book helps us to be more

00:03:37.200 tolerant and forgiving when someone doesn't respond the way we think he or she should

00:03:41.760 Fortunately, perfection is not a requirement for creating great relationships.

00:03:46.140 Bonnie, reach out if you need help.

00:03:47.540 I think one of the challenges of covering these like self-help books is oftentimes they

00:03:51.900 start with like a nugget of truth and wisdom, right?

00:03:55.620 So the idea that like to be in a successful relationship, you have to understand where

00:04:01.120 the other person is coming from seems totally fine to me.

00:04:04.540 What he lays out in this preface is that basically this is just a guide and like a way of seeing

00:04:09.380 the world that is going to help you more effectively communicate with your partner

00:04:13.160 and really find out what they want in the relationship. This is about pleasing your

00:04:16.880 partner and making sure that you're the kind of partner that they need. So I'm reading through

00:04:20.920 all this and I'm like, this actually kind of sounds okay. Right. Well intended. Right. And

00:04:25.620 it's like a sort of gender essentialist thing that like I really don't subscribe to. But also

00:04:30.260 like I don't subscribe to like the Myers-Briggs personality type indicators. And like that's a

00:04:35.180 way of looking at the world that like seems to help people yeah sure we then get into the

00:04:39.560 introduction to the book we're in the text of the book now he then gives us the story that inspired

00:04:46.580 the book so i'm going to send this to you it's a little long a lot of the excerpts are a little

00:04:51.960 bit long in this episode because like you sort of can't believe what he's saying at many points

00:04:56.940 and like no one would believe me if i paraphrased so we're just we're gonna have to let john tell

00:05:01.520 the story. All right. A week after our daughter Lauren was born, my wife Bonnie and I were

00:05:06.400 completely exhausted. Each night, Lauren kept waking us. Bonnie had a difficult delivery and

00:05:11.400 she was taking painkillers. She could barely walk. After five days of staying home to help,

00:05:16.400 I went back to work. While I was away, she ran out of pain pills. Instead of calling me at the

00:05:21.420 office, she asked one of my brothers, who was visiting, to purchase more. My brother, however,

00:05:26.180 did not return with the pills. Consequently, she spent the whole day in pain taking care of a

00:05:31.900 newborn. I had no idea that her day had been so awful. When I returned home, she was very upset.

00:05:37.300 I misinterpreted the cause of her distress and thought she was blaming me. She said,

00:05:41.620 I've been in pain all day. I ran out of pills. I've been stranded in bed and nobody cares.

00:05:46.920 I said defensively, why didn't you call me? She said, I asked your brother, but he forgot.

00:05:52.880 What am I supposed to do? I can barely walk. I feel so deserted. At this point, I exploded.

00:06:00.260 My fuse was also very short that day. I was angry that she hadn't called me. I was furious that she

00:06:05.780 was blaming me when I didn't even know she was in pain. After exchanging a few harsh words,

00:06:10.820 I headed for the door. Then something happened that would change my life. Bonnie said,

00:06:15.980 Stop. Please don't leave. This is when I need you the most. I'm in pain. I haven't slept in days.

00:06:21.200 please listen to me. I stopped for a moment to listen. She said, John Gray, you're a fair weather

00:06:27.260 friend. As long as I'm sweet, loving Bonnie, you are here for me. But as soon as I'm not, you walk

00:06:32.720 right out that door. Then she paused and her eyes filled up with tears. As her tone shifted, she

00:06:38.840 said, right now I'm in pain. I have nothing to give. This is when I need you the most. Please

00:06:43.920 come over here and hold me. I walked over and silently held her. She wept in my arms. After a

00:06:49.860 few minutes she thanked me for not leaving that day for the first time i didn't leave her i stayed

00:06:56.240 and it felt great i marveled at how easy it was for me to support her when i was shown the way

00:07:02.880 so emotional triumphs this is a story about how he needed it explained to him that when five days

00:07:12.940 after a difficult birth his wife begging for painkillers was upset that he should hang around

00:07:23.380 rather than just leave and blowing up at her for being upset it was then as she was being held in

00:07:30.240 my arms that i thought women are really from venus are you kidding me what first of all this dude's 0.97

00:07:36.020 brother sucks a meanwhile john is at work uh five days after the birth and returns home and she's 0.99

00:07:45.240 upset and he's like what are you fucking blaming me and also like he's a self-help guru at this 0.99

00:07:49.940 time he doesn't have like an office job this isn't like his paternity leave is too short 0.96

00:07:54.380 he chose to go back to work i was at the office uh direct writing drafts of my next

00:08:00.220 awful self-help book while my wife suffered at home chapter two leaving your wife when she's

00:08:08.880 at her most vulnerable it's also fascinating to me because this is a story where he basically is

00:08:14.220 like led begging and screaming to an epiphany right right this isn't like i i realized that

00:08:21.540 like i had to be more emotionally mature it's basically him being extremely immature and his 0.98

00:08:26.400 wife being like hey i need you to fucking nut up and like understand what i need right now she 0.96

00:08:31.940 literally explains it to him like yeah when i'm in these situations is when i need you the most 0.99

00:08:36.120 and you always leave and he's like huh it's not really a revelation it's literally his wife

00:08:41.840 being like hey here is like the bare minimum of communication and support in a loving relationship

00:08:47.840 and then he's like i should write a book about this insight that my wife gave me he's like going

00:08:52.980 to his guy friends the next day being like have you ever supported the woman i had a crazy

00:08:59.360 revelation she shouted at me to see things from her perspective and when i tried it it was lit

00:09:05.360 just curious when when your wife's in physical and emotional agony what do you guys do do you

00:09:11.240 so with the thudding lack of self-awareness that we will see throughout this book

00:09:18.920 he then describes how like this epiphany is what led him eventually to write this book he says

00:09:25.420 how had i missed this she just needed me to go over and hold her another woman would have

00:09:30.480 instinctively known what bonnie needed but as a man i didn't know that touching holding and

00:09:35.520 listening were so important to her by recognizing these differences i began to learn a new way of

00:09:40.880 relating to my wife i never would have believed we could resolve conflict so easily so this is it

00:09:47.260 He has the epiphany and then he does some sort of table setting where he basically establishes

00:09:53.320 his credibility, right?

00:09:55.120 So you're reading this book and you're like, well, who is this guy, right?

00:09:57.160 Right.

00:09:57.460 So he says after this epiphany with Bonnie, he spends the next seven years doing research

00:10:03.300 to, quote, help define and refine the insights about men and women that I've included in

00:10:09.060 this book.

00:10:09.680 So this leads him on a path of discovery.

00:10:12.380 He mentions that he's a couples counselor.

00:10:14.960 So the book is based on all the work that he did after his epiphany with Bonnie and the fact that

00:10:19.820 he's counseled hundreds of relationships. The rest of his evidence is that he's given couples

00:10:25.260 seminars to more than 25,000 participants. So he's also drawing upon the insights that he's

00:10:32.160 gained from those. And as far as data, he says that 90% of the participants say that this sounds

00:10:38.320 true to them okay and then and then don't get ahead of ourselves and then he gets to the thesis

00:10:45.740 statement of the book so this is like the book in a nutshell men are from mars women are from venus

00:10:50.620 is a manual for loving relationships it reveals how men and women differ in all areas of their

00:10:56.440 lives not only do men and women communicate differently but they think feel perceive react

00:11:02.020 respond love need and appreciate differently they almost seem to be from different planets

00:11:07.580 speaking different languages and needing different nourishment okay let's just let's just get on with

00:11:16.640 this so that's the intro right so he's laid out the epiphany that started the book he's laid out

00:11:24.200 the thesis for the book at this point i was still like okay some cracks are showing but like it seems

00:11:31.180 like his heart is in the right place he wants to make relationships better for people ultimately

00:11:34.640 the epiphany that, like, my wife needs support in these moments is like a true epiphany, right?

00:11:40.040 So it led him to the correct conclusion. So I'm like, okay, like, maybe there's other sort of

00:11:44.440 clueless people that will find this guide useful for navigating cluelessly their relationships.

00:11:50.220 Yeah, it's a very sloppy and maybe problematic way to approach empathy. But if it allows people

00:11:58.060 who otherwise wouldn't to see the other perspective, then there's a utility there,

00:12:02.320 right exactly so i'm like okay fine so then we get to chapter one of the book which is called

00:12:08.980 men are from mars women are from venus the weirdest thing about this book is that like you

00:12:15.360 and me we look at the title of the book it's obviously a metaphor right but in the book much

00:12:20.820 of the quote-unquote evidence is like actual alien species so almost all of chapter one is

00:12:28.320 this like extremely try hard metaphor of like the men were raised on mars and for thousands of years

00:12:34.380 they lived on mars and then they like look through their telescopes and they can see venus and then

00:12:40.020 they're like oh the people on venus they're different from us and they need us so they

00:12:43.080 travel to venus and you're like still going on the mars and venus stuff huh we're on page like

00:12:47.820 eight nine ten like okay we're still doing this and he's not really like saying anything

00:12:53.700 particularly insightful about it he's just like really hammering home this like metaphor this is

00:12:58.960 the lore the lore of men exactly and then you know earth is between mars and venus so eventually

00:13:05.620 they go to earth and they're like compromising but then over time they've forgotten that they're

00:13:11.000 from mars and venus and then you're like all right we're on like page 25 it took you that

00:13:15.160 fucking long to lead me to like all right men and women are different fine so he then gets to

00:13:21.720 finally chapter two, which is about men and women's communication styles. And he lays out 0.95

00:13:28.260 that the reason that men communicate is to deliver information, right? Men talk because 0.84

00:13:34.900 they want to know things. And women communicate because they want to feel things. Women mostly 0.99

00:13:40.720 communicate because they want to share emotions, build rapport, deliver support. And this is kind 1.00

00:13:46.060 of at the heart of what he sees as the problem with a lot of modern relationships is that men

00:13:50.760 and women simply have different objectives in their communication style don't don't react we're

00:13:56.440 gonna do a little role play we're gonna do a little role play okay uh okay i'm gonna send you

00:14:00.300 a little script here he's giving us a script for one of the main problems that men do when they

00:14:07.420 have conversations with women is they go into like advice mode he calls it mr fix it so you're

00:14:13.200 gonna be tom i'm gonna be mary all right narrator voice mary comes home from an exhausting day

00:14:20.560 she wants and needs to share her feelings.

00:14:23.900 Okay, so I'm Mary.

00:14:24.920 There's so much to do.

00:14:26.080 I don't have any time for myself.

00:14:27.640 You should quit that job.

00:14:29.240 You don't have to work so hard.

00:14:30.700 Find something you like to do.

00:14:32.020 But I like my job.

00:14:33.180 They just expect me to change everything

00:14:34.840 at a moment's notice.

00:14:36.000 Don't listen to them.

00:14:37.000 Just do what you can do.

00:14:38.180 I am.

00:14:38.820 I can't believe I completely forgot

00:14:40.320 to call my aunt today.

00:14:41.520 Don't worry about it.

00:14:42.220 She'll understand.

00:14:43.100 You know what she's going through?

00:14:44.500 She needs me.

00:14:45.340 You worry too much.

00:14:46.180 That's why you're so unhappy.

00:14:47.440 I'm not always unhappy.

00:14:48.640 Can't you just listen to me?

00:14:50.120 I am listening.

00:14:51.260 Why do I even bother? 0.99

00:14:52.480 I hate you, Mary.

00:14:53.740 I added that last part, but I thought that's what Tom would say.

00:14:57.520 So you see the pattern here, right?

00:14:59.740 She's trying to like emotionally bond.

00:15:01.700 I had a bad day.

00:15:02.560 And he's like, well, then you should quit.

00:15:04.040 OK, it's a little annoying when somebody basically like fast forwards to the part where they just like bark tedious advice at you.

00:15:10.100 I've heard this sort of stereotype before that that women will articulate their problems because they want to be supported.

00:15:18.480 and men will cut to the solutions right i don't really view this as a particularly gendered thing

00:15:24.160 mostly because um my wife would be tom in this conversation yeah i'll be like i don't i think 0.99

00:15:29.680 this might be cancer she'll be like go to the doctor just go to the fucking doctor right and 0.92

00:15:32.920 i'm like i don't want to go to the doctor i want you to tell me that it's not cancer and i'm being 0.97

00:15:36.960 crazy he also weirdly like in the transition to like the solutions script he also says that like

00:15:44.400 women never offer solutions when someone's talking it's just i mean come on he's like

00:15:48.640 your wife might be confused because she's never gotten advice from a woman before 0.97

00:15:52.000 women just go to each other with their problems and the other woman starts crying and then they

00:15:57.720 cry together and that's every conversation it's the last scene of mayor of east town just went

00:16:03.200 on their knees just crumpling to the floor well what a reference so now we have to do like the

00:16:10.080 good script so essentially his only advice to men in this entire book is this do not immediately go 0.97

00:16:19.120 to mr fix it bullshit like when your wife is telling you about a problem she needs emotional 0.97

00:16:24.220 support she needs you to reflect her emotions back to her she doesn't want you to like tinker 0.99

00:16:28.740 with it and fix it so this is the script of tom and mary again but this is like they they fix

00:16:35.220 their problems and this is how it's supposed to go this is good tom this is good tom so get it

00:16:39.580 get in a good Tom headspace. All right. So Mary comes home from work again. She says,

00:16:43.500 there's so much to do. I have no time for me. Hmm. Sounds like you had a hard day.

00:16:51.160 They expect me to change everything at a moment's notice. I don't know what to do.

00:16:55.440 Hmm. I even forgot to call my aunt. Oh no. She needs me so much right now. I feel so bad.

00:17:02.880 You are such a loving person. Come here. Let me give you a hug. Tom gives Mary a hug and she

00:17:07.320 relaxes in his arms with a big sigh of relief. She then says, I love talking with you. You make

00:17:13.160 me really happy. Thanks for listening. I feel so much better. Patronize your wife until she loves

00:17:23.580 you. Just say, hmm, oh no. To be clear, when I took a deep breath and relaxed on the exhale,

00:17:32.540 That's because it says Tom takes a deep breath and relaxes on the exhale.

00:17:37.840 Yeah, I removed some of the stage directions.

00:17:39.660 It also said like Tom furrows his brow and says, oh, no.

00:17:43.280 So you're supposed to be emoting with me, Peter.

00:17:48.320 So, again, it's like this is not bad advice.

00:17:51.100 Right.

00:17:51.600 Reflect people's feelings back to them.

00:17:53.700 Listen closely.

00:17:54.720 Right.

00:17:54.880 But it's like it's kind of amazing to me that he can't come up with any examples of this that are more than just going,

00:18:02.020 hmm oh no tom's not offering any insight yeah oh it sounds like the same thing happened to you last

00:18:07.800 week like oh your boss has been like such a frustration for you this month something something

00:18:12.240 to indicate that he's actually invested in this problem right do you want to talk more about it

00:18:15.960 this is this is when i started to lose confidence in the book it seemed okay at the beginning like

00:18:20.680 i was willing to sort of like give it a chance but like i don't know this is like very specific

00:18:25.600 are very helpful. Then we get to the section on women's communication styles. So he says,

00:18:31.820 when a woman is stressed, she instinctively feels a need to talk about her feelings and all the

00:18:36.980 possible problems that are associated with her feelings. When she begins talking, she does not 1.00

00:18:41.780 prioritize the significance of any problem. If she's upset, then she's upset about it all,

00:18:46.640 big and small. To feel better, women talk about past problems, future problems, potential problems, 1.00

00:18:51.360 even problems that have no solutions.

00:18:53.620 The more talk and exploration, the better they feel.

00:18:56.340 She's not immediately concerned with finding solutions to her problems,

00:18:59.460 but rather seeks relief by expressing herself and being understood.

00:19:03.260 By randomly talking about her problems, she becomes less upset. 1.00

00:19:07.620 This is the way women operate. 1.00

00:19:09.400 To expect otherwise is to deny a woman her sense of self. 1.00

00:19:13.220 Women be talking. 1.00

00:19:14.380 Women be talking. 1.00

00:19:15.280 Women will feel stuff, and then they're going to want to yap about quite a bit.

00:19:19.500 i also this is another pattern that we see throughout the book where he he's very clearly

00:19:26.200 talking about his wife here right like he's saying something very specific right he's like 0.87

00:19:31.400 when women are upset they just talk about fucking everything at once right past present future 0.98

00:19:36.380 they can't distinguish they bring up on my mom is sick and work was bad and the dog isn't home 0.99

00:19:41.480 and you just have to let them talk and like tire themselves out it's like you're just talking about

00:19:46.780 your wife who like seems to have anxiety right this is not remotely universal to women at all

00:19:51.820 and like i also know men that do this when they're stressed out of course i do this when i'm stressed 0.99

00:19:55.880 out women will always say things like john i hate you john you never listen you're the worst husband

00:20:02.840 on earth so then he gives like weirdly specific advice about this he says that when you're telling

00:20:08.560 a story to your husband you should like skip to the end first because like men get bored if they

00:20:14.860 don't know where the story's going and you're like building suspense but like men don't like

00:20:18.540 it when you're building suspense that also just seems like something you want to tell your wife

00:20:22.560 but like you're giving us advice i understand the desire to simplify complex things right yeah

00:20:30.120 everyone wants that quick solution you know you want to be able to say oh my partner is doing that

00:20:35.080 thing what's the button i press to fix it but some things are just complicated you know and

00:20:40.300 like you can't simplify them it'll only dilute your understanding right and i think like

00:20:45.940 relationships gender dynamics they fall into those categories right right you can't treat

00:20:51.400 your spouse's behavior like it's something your pet is doing a lot of his advice in this book

00:20:56.240 sounds like dealing with a difficult co-worker or something where it's like okay you're forced

00:21:01.720 into a situation with this person you have to come up with a strategy for like how to manage

00:21:07.120 them yeah you know he has these this advice throughout the book where he's like try to

00:21:10.420 remember things going on in your wife's life like if she had a doctor's appointment ask like how did

00:21:14.700 the doctor go right i mean am i like you should not need to be told like by the way when your wife

00:21:20.080 when your wife is ill and goes to the doctor you're gonna want to follow up like and a lot

00:21:26.600 of this stuff just comes across as like do you do you like this person but then okay then we get to

00:21:32.460 the part that like made me leave the book and go to google so his advice to women after establishing

00:21:39.220 all of their communication problems they just talk about everything at once is women oftentimes

00:21:44.680 give criticism in a way that is accusatory there's this fundamental mismatch where she thinks she's 1.00

00:21:50.360 saying something innocent but he sees it as an attack on him so he then lists the fucking list 0.91

00:21:57.900 in this book, Peter, he, every list has like 10 to 20 more items than you need to like understand 0.97

00:22:03.740 the concept. So he then lists a bunch of phrases that women say and the way that men are interpreting

00:22:11.160 them. Okay. So I'm not going to send you the whole list for the love of God, but I'm going to send

00:22:15.900 you three examples. Shit. Okay. What she says, we never go out. What she means. I like going out 0.99

00:22:27.200 and doing something together.

00:22:28.580 We always have such a fun time

00:22:30.060 and I love being with you.

00:22:31.860 A man may hear,

00:22:33.060 you are not doing your job.

00:22:34.460 What a disappointment

00:22:35.100 you have turned out to be.

00:22:36.620 We never do anything together anymore 0.97

00:22:40.180 because you are lazy, 0.99

00:22:41.300 unromantic, and boring. 0.99

00:22:42.740 We never go out.

00:22:43.820 That's what he hears.

00:22:44.660 We'll circle back.

00:22:46.760 What she says,

00:22:47.820 this house is always a mess.

00:22:49.280 What she means,

00:22:50.220 today I feel like relaxing

00:22:51.340 but the house is so messy.

00:22:52.860 I am frustrated

00:22:53.580 and I need a rest.

00:22:55.360 A man may hear,

00:22:56.680 This house is a mess because of you.

00:22:58.560 I do everything possible to clean it up.

00:23:00.780 And before I have finished, you have messed it up again. 0.99

00:23:03.180 You are a lazy slob, and I don't want to live with you unless you change. 0.98

00:23:06.760 Clean up or clear out. 1.00

00:23:08.280 House is a mess. 0.85

00:23:09.120 What she says.

00:23:10.040 I want more romance.

00:23:11.940 What she means.

00:23:13.280 Sweetheart, you have been working so hard lately.

00:23:15.800 Let's take some time out for ourselves.

00:23:17.760 Would you surprise me with flowers sometime soon and take me out on a date?

00:23:20.900 I love being romanced.

00:23:23.080 A man may hear, you don't satisfy me anymore.

00:23:25.380 i am not turned on to you your romantic skills are definitely inadequate you have never really

00:23:30.520 fulfilled me i wish you were more like other men i have been with good lord john needs therapy 0.99

00:23:37.060 more than anyone i've ever seen in my fucking life your wife's like i want a little more romance 1.00

00:23:43.160 did your ex fuck you better is that what's happening 1.00

00:23:46.040 i was gonna make exactly that same joke like oh i don't fuck you like todd does huh 1.00

00:23:54.400 I mean, good Lord. You know, but it's funny that there is something to this. Like when someone sort of like expresses a frustration, you don't want to take it too personally. Right. It's something you can work on together. But these sort of like she she's going to say we don't go out that much. You're going to hear that you're a fucking loser. You're the laziest piece of shit on earth. But that's actually not what she's saying. It's like no one who has a healthy relationship with themselves think that thinks that that's what she's saying. 0.99

00:24:23.420 Dude. And also keep in mind, this entire thing is a list of advice to women. This is not advice

00:24:30.680 for men. Like maybe don't jump to like deranged conclusions without understanding first what she

00:24:36.580 means. Right. What do you mean, sweetie? Right. That's not his advice. That's not the framework

00:24:39.780 for this. The framework for this is women need to not say things that trigger all of these sub 1.00

00:24:45.660 deranged understandings in their husband. So he ends this chapter by saying the answer is that

00:24:51.880 she should definitely not offer criticism or advice unless he asks. Instead, she should try

00:24:57.580 giving him loving acceptance. This is what he needs, not lectures. As he begins to feel her

00:25:03.080 acceptance, he will begin to ask what she thinks. Oh, my God. Just clean up a little bit, dude.

00:25:10.440 Have sex with your wife. This harkens back to the initial anecdote where, you know, he returns to 1.00

00:25:19.420 his bedridden wife in pain lacking painkillers who's upset and immediately is like oh so you're

00:25:28.100 mad at me this is what i was just about to say like this totally recast the opening anecdote

00:25:31.840 right it's you know the idea that that is her fault in some way it's just so obscene bro so

00:25:38.940 okay so the the first phase of me reading this book was like whatever sure i don't know it's

00:25:46.260 getting a little more iffy the second phase of reading this i was like all right who is this

00:25:50.940 fucking guy yeah so then i start googling around to figure out who john gray is so he's born in 0.86

00:25:56.180 houston in 1951 his dad is an oil man his mom runs a bookstore okay and when he's a teenager 0.98

00:26:04.540 he goes to a transcendental meditation seminar and gets really into transcendental meditation

00:26:11.100 yoga all this kind of 60s woo woo stuff that was bouncing around at the time okay he ends up

00:26:16.500 becoming essentially the executive assistant or like the right-hand man of maharishi mahesh yogi

00:26:22.940 the guy who's like linked to the beatles at this time like during their sitar phase oh okay yeah

00:26:29.080 he's the guy who popularized transcendental meditation he was like quite a famous figure

00:26:33.760 at the time and so john gray essentially follows him around the world for the next nine years

00:26:39.900 And becomes like a big transcendental meditation guy. He says that during this period, he attained bachelor's and master's degrees in the science of creative intelligence at something called the Maharishi International University.

00:26:57.660 Oh, yeah. No, I've got I've got degrees from there, too.

00:27:00.480 Yeah, exactly. The Peter Lawboy University. So this university, there's one in Switzerland

00:27:08.480 that is not accredited. There's also one in Fairfield, Iowa, which is accredited,

00:27:14.560 but people have reached out to the university and they don't appear to have any record of

00:27:17.720 John Gray ever attending. So it's not clear that he ever got his bachelor or master's.

00:27:23.780 He also has never been a licensed couples counselor.

00:27:28.800 In the paperback edition of Men Are From Mars, he says that he's a member of the National Academy for Certified Therapists, which does not appear to exist.

00:27:37.820 He also says that he's a member of the American Counseling Association, which offers memberships for $189 on their website.

00:27:45.920 So anyone can be a member of that.

00:27:48.900 When he was done traveling around with this yogi guy, he moved to San Francisco and started

00:27:54.260 offering couples counseling. 0.98

00:27:55.640 That part is true.

00:27:56.960 However, there's a weird loophole, or at least there was at the time, in California

00:28:01.120 law where you don't need a license to practice couples counseling if you're a religious

00:28:05.980 instructor, right?

00:28:07.540 So the idea is that, like, priests can give couples counseling without necessarily getting

00:28:10.920 licensed because it's under, like, a spiritual framework.

00:28:13.300 Yeah.

00:28:13.380 So because he's this kind of quasi-religious guru, he's able to give couples counseling advice.

00:28:20.460 But it's not clear that it's like couples counseling.

00:28:24.440 I think it's like meditation counseling.

00:28:27.100 He never is specific about what the nature of the counseling is.

00:28:30.560 And throughout the book, one of the weirdest things about the book is he says he's been a couples counselor for seven years.

00:28:35.680 There's like maybe two or three examples of couples in this book.

00:28:38.800 So after three years of, like, being this, like, yogi transcendental meditation guy, he links up with another self-help grifter named Barbara DeAngelis, who offers, like, relatively legit couples counseling or these kind of seminars for couples.

00:28:56.380 They're only married for three years.

00:28:58.920 And I don't know what happened behind the scenes.

00:29:01.620 But what we know is he basically rebrands, right?

00:29:04.800 At the time, he's like this guy with a ponytail.

00:29:06.540 he's like a yoga meditation woo-woo guy, right? After a couple of years with her like kind of

00:29:13.600 air of legitimacy, he rebrands himself as like Dr. John Gray, right? So I don't know if it's

00:29:20.840 at her suggestion or what, but he eventually gets a PhD from something called Columbia Pacific

00:29:26.080 University, which is a distance only degree granting institution that was shut down by

00:29:32.840 court order in the year 2000 fully just like a like grifter you and i read some of the court

00:29:40.080 documents it basically seemed like it was just a box ticking exercise the authorities found that

00:29:44.900 four of their phd students had been granted phds after less than a year of study one person wrote

00:29:51.520 their phd on spanish literature in spanish and it was judged by four instructors who didn't speak

00:29:58.180 spanish like they got a good grade you just basically buy a degree from this place and then

00:30:04.660 when people have pushed back on him about this i'm like uh it kind of seems like you have like

00:30:09.100 a fake phd he then points them to the fact that he was granted an honorary degree from some

00:30:16.100 university in illinois after he gave a commencement speech he's like oh that's why i'm allowed to put

00:30:20.740 phd on the titles of my book an honorary degree is not a degree this university that gave him an

00:30:27.160 honorary phd doesn't even give phds like you just don't have a phd dude i do want to point out before

00:30:33.900 we move on you're saying that he used to be a little bit bohemian but now he's bourgeois

00:30:41.000 what does that make him michael he's wearing a vest he's going to bakeries

00:30:48.220 and also what is fucking amazing to me is this is not like a secret so i i found out most of this

00:30:54.240 from a 1994 L.A. Times article, like at the height of his fame, it's called something along the lines 0.82

00:30:59.800 of John Gray's unconventional path to the bestseller list. And it just lays out all the

00:31:05.980 various frauds that he's committed. Yeah, but it does it in this way that it's like, that's weird.

00:31:10.840 Right. He says that he earned that money from business. But if you look at the records,

00:31:15.140 he actually robbed it from a bank. Right. Unconventional. It doesn't reach the obvious

00:31:19.640 his conclusion to this that like he's doing this cynically like it's it's not like he thought it

00:31:24.540 was a real phd when he signed up and like oh no it's not a real school he did this so that he

00:31:29.880 could take on an air of legitimacy and give people advice and sell books to people the ways in which 0.96

00:31:35.180 our culture coddles grifters it's amazing oh my fucking god we can debate how fair it is to blame 0.68

00:31:42.300 somebody for what they did after their book was published but it is notable that like he has been 0.98

00:31:48.760 a just nonstop grifter since this book hit the big time so in 1997 he sets up something called

00:31:55.260 the mars and venus counseling center where he allows people to be certified mars and venus

00:32:00.820 counselors sure so this is a guy without a license to practice who's now selling licenses to people 0.97

00:32:06.720 he's been selling dietary supplements through his website since fucking 2005 0.50

00:32:11.520 yeah in 2019 he gets a cease and desist order from the fda for making health claims like this 0.99

00:32:17.320 can cure alzheimer's and shit he did some extremely bleak autism grifting in the early 0.91

00:32:24.720 2000s where he said you could treat autism by taking 102 degree baths what not 101 not 103 0.99

00:32:32.100 they have to be 102 degrees and that will help your kids get over their autism

00:32:35.940 the only artifact of this in the book like because i was expecting this sort of pseudoscience stuff

00:32:44.040 to come up in the rest of men are from mars women are from venus i don't really know if this is to 0.66

00:32:48.040 his credit but he doesn't really do any like the female brain pan shit right it's not it's not a 0.87

00:32:53.600 there's no biological analysis yeah he's not even really trying which like i'd rather have that than 0.98

00:32:58.900 a bunch of pseudoscience so like fair enough yeah but in the book he does say some women who avoid

00:33:04.340 dealing with negative emotions and resist the natural wave motion of their feelings experience

00:33:09.300 premenstrual syndrome. There is a strong correlation between PMS and the inability to cope with

00:33:15.200 negative feelings in a positive way. In some cases, women who have learned successfully to

00:33:20.420 deal with their feelings have felt their PMS symptoms disappear. How is this? This is so

00:33:25.480 sexist that it's turning me a straight white male into like a raging feminist college student. 0.98

00:33:32.640 You're burning a bra next to your laptop right now. 0.99

00:33:34.900 oh my god i i was wondering how much of this book is just like men are rational and women

00:33:41.420 are emotional is that a big part of it this is like the rest of the episode peter

00:33:45.860 so to get back to the book so i'm only a third of the way through the book by this point and i'm

00:33:54.080 like oh this this is just some random guy right it's not clear that he was ever really a couples 0.71

00:33:59.360 counselor right he's been giving these fucking seminars which i think are just full of the same 0.99

00:34:03.280 grifty bullshit like he's talking at people he's not really getting experiences from people right 0.99

00:34:07.600 he's not gathering data or anything so essentially the entire book is just like him working through 0.99

00:34:14.420 his own shit the only example he cites in the book over and over again is himself and bonnie 0.88

00:34:20.960 so like roughly one-third of the book is spent on this idea that like men need to go to their caves 0.99

00:34:27.400 like women want to talk when they have a problem men want to like retreat from the world when they

00:34:32.340 have a problem okay it's like four chapters in a row he just like talks about this concept of like

00:34:36.800 you can't ask a man not to like disappear on you he says at one point when he comes back from his

00:34:43.380 cave and his wife is upset he explains i needed some time alone it was only for two days what's 0.98

00:34:49.520 the big deal oh my god what the fuck two days he is 41 years old when this book is published 0.98

00:34:58.100 He has three kids. 0.98

00:35:00.460 I mean, I don't mean to state the obvious here, but perhaps the reason that your spouse 1.00

00:35:07.620 is not retreating for days on end is not because they're a woman, but because they cannot. 1.00

00:35:12.380 Right. 0.96

00:35:12.840 I love the idea of him writing this book as like a defense against Bonnie.

00:35:19.780 100%.

00:35:20.260 He's carrying like a six pack into the room, the room with the TV.

00:35:25.120 and bonnie's like john please we haven't talked in days and he's like cave time sorry still in my

00:35:31.100 cave this book the only interesting thing about it because it's like thuddingly repetitive

00:35:35.500 is it ends up being this like almost accidental biography of him so like the tension that he's

00:35:42.660 dealing with is that he obviously loves his wife but he also he was a he was a transcendental

00:35:47.800 meditation yoga guy for nine years like he needs solitude and when he has problems when he's

00:35:53.960 challenged he wants to run away from things and go meditate for two days or whatever that's his

00:35:59.040 like conflict management style and he's like he says this in interviews he doesn't say it in the

00:36:03.880 book but it's like yeah based on his background he runs away as soon as he sees a problem and he like

00:36:10.080 he he's terrified of having to actually like remain in this relationship and actually address

00:36:15.640 a conflict he wants to run away wait two days come back pretend like everything is normal right

00:36:20.640 But instead of realizing that he has these patterns that like really aren't very healthy or adult, he comes up with a whole worldview of like, no, no, no, no, no. 0.61

00:36:31.260 This is how men are.

00:36:32.880 I'm doing this because I'm a man. 1.00

00:36:34.180 And the problem with women is they're always telling men not to go to their caves. 1.00

00:36:39.140 Right. 1.00

00:36:39.480 Every single thing in this book is just like him dealing with his own shit, but not dealing with it or processing it. 0.99

00:36:46.780 It's justifying it. 0.99

00:36:48.060 Right.

00:36:48.600 Maybe I've got this wrong.

00:36:49.620 I was conceiving of it as he's directing the book toward Bonnie as an excuse.

00:36:55.140 But maybe the book stands between himself and a recognition that he could improve himself.

00:37:01.940 Right.

00:37:02.120 He retreats into like, I actually can't improve myself because this is just man stuff.

00:37:07.700 All men do this and women have to understand.

00:37:10.200 The other accidental biography thing in this is there's a bunch of like weird oblique references 0.86

00:37:15.160 to parenting and upbringing.

00:37:18.120 he says men have not seen how a woman who feels heard can suddenly change feel better and sustain

00:37:24.640 a positive attitude generally they have seen how a woman probably their mother who did not feel

00:37:30.200 heard continued to dwell on her problems and then this is like 30 pages later he says had our past

00:37:36.660 been different we would have watched our father successfully and lovingly listen to our mother

00:37:40.720 expand and express her frustrations and disappointments we would have watched our

00:37:44.940 mother trusting our father and sharing her feelings openly without disapproving or blaming

00:37:49.600 him. We would have experienced how a person could be upset without pushing someone away with

00:37:54.360 mistrust, emotional manipulation, avoidance, disapproval, condescension, or coldness.

00:37:59.680 But it didn't happen that way for most of us. Instead, we spent 18 years learning unsuccessful

00:38:04.600 communication skills. You know, I do wonder whether gender dynamics when he was growing up

00:38:12.860 We're so bad that this book is like a positive step, even if you can look back at it and

00:38:20.020 think like, wow, this is essentialist nonsense, right?

00:38:23.120 But at least the premise of like, people have reasons for what, for their different

00:38:28.140 behaviors, and you should try to understand those, that in and of itself is progressive

00:38:32.960 enough that it's a vast improvement upon what was there before, right?

00:38:38.060 I don't know.

00:38:38.700 I think that's like the tension that he's struggling with in this book, right?

00:38:41.100 Because I think he grew up just, like, hating his mom and being like, my mom is this horrible shrew to my father.

00:38:47.960 And this has, like, helped him understand what he perceives as his mother's behavior, right? 0.77

00:38:52.900 He's like, oh, well, she did this because she's a woman.

00:38:54.900 She didn't feel appreciated.

00:38:56.520 He didn't feel needed.

00:38:57.820 He now has this entire framework around it.

00:39:00.460 Right.

00:39:00.600 But he's immediately turning it into advice, right?

00:39:02.800 He's basically taking all of these lessons that his wife has taught him and, like, turning them into, like, universal rules.

00:39:10.780 and then selling them back to people god he like it's funny that this is a book that is 0.99

00:39:17.040 essentially about at its core some level of self-awareness right but this dude has fucking 0.78

00:39:22.480 none none exactly it's wild so also okay so the next sort of section as i started thinking about 0.94

00:39:31.640 like the project that this book is engaged in i started googling like john gray women oh yeah 1.00

00:39:38.580 okay this is from a 2014 interview the reason why there's so much divorce is that feminism

00:39:43.320 promotes independence in women yeah i'm very happy for women to find greater independence 0.82

00:39:47.780 but when you go too far in that direction then who's at home i was like that's not great what's

00:39:54.460 what's the next tab i have open he gave an interview to an australian newspaper because

00:39:59.640 he was like doing a book tour there or something and they asked him about julia gillard who was the

00:40:04.540 prime minister at the time and he does this whole thing that like she's too she's too masculine and

00:40:09.980 the reason she's turning off voters is her masculinity i mean obviously he knows nothing

00:40:13.420 about australian politics and neither do i honestly but like he this is his theory for

00:40:17.700 why this happened and then it says this is from the article it says dr gray also said the perception

00:40:23.600 from the electorate that the pm was a liar would be hurting her chances quote women are the best

00:40:29.100 liars without a doubt every day they wake up and put on makeup women are hiding what's going on 1.00

00:40:34.580 all the time they're often hiding so much they don't know what's real good lord yeah it's like 1.00

00:40:40.500 of course fucking you lifelong fraud this this is like a trope that i've heard so many times that 0.99

00:40:47.500 like women are lying when they're putting on makeup it's the most bizarre shit it's so weird 1.00

00:40:53.400 because a you'd have to be a complete schmuck to like look at a girl with like you know heavy 1.00

00:40:58.400 eye shadow and be like is that real like but also like okay like what do you you don't do your hair 1.00

00:41:05.440 suits are fake it's all fake working out is fake it's so stupid and i like can't process it as 0.99

00:41:12.240 anything other than a manifestation of just like pure hatred for women and again it's like maybe 0.99

00:41:18.880 it's unfair to judge this 1992 book from what he said in 2013 but it's like these ideas are

00:41:25.660 everywhere in this book. He has this whole thing that men need to feel appreciated and women need

00:41:34.780 to couch their requests and concerns in a way that acknowledges that like he's doing his best.

00:41:41.000 So he has this whole thing about, you know, men need to go to their caves. And the following

00:41:45.380 chapter is about how women's emotions come in waves. He gets to this point where he talks about

00:41:50.180 the fundamental contradiction of what happens when a man wants to go to his cave and a woman

00:41:55.600 needs support because she's at the bottom of her wave. Right. A woman needs support when she's 0.98

00:42:00.240 feeling bad. Yeah. In one of the other only like specific examples in this book, he says there was 0.65

00:42:05.860 nothing wrong with Harris's need to be alone, nor was there anything wrong with Kathy's hurt

00:42:10.080 feelings. Instead of arguing, he could have told her something like this. I understand you're upset.

00:42:15.000 And right now I really need to watch TV and relax. When I feel better, we can talk. This would give

00:42:20.860 him time to watch TV as well as an opportunity to cool off and prepare himself to listen to

00:42:25.440 his partner's hurt without making her hurt feelings worse and hearing the suggestion kathy said if he

00:42:31.040 gets to be in his cave then what about me i give him space but what do i get what kathy gets is the

00:42:37.180 best her partner can give at the time by not demanding that he listen to her when she wants

00:42:41.640 to talk she can avoid making the problem much worse by having a huge argument a huge argument

00:42:48.160 caused by him caused by him do not irritate the the cave dwelling male the cave dwelling male 0.99

00:42:54.320 what the fuck i mean the basic approach like the tips directed towards women are like a leave me 0.98

00:43:00.740 alone b tell me i'm a good boy totally that's it right and you're literally weighing like her need 1.00

00:43:07.560 for emotional support against your need to just completely disengage from her and to like fucking 0.94

00:43:13.480 watch tv he's not specific about like what her problem is or what she's going through but it's 0.95

00:43:18.740 like yeah i had a really bad day sweetie can we talk about it and you're like i really need to

00:43:22.740 watch tv though yeah come on come on like he never deals with the fact that some of his advice is

00:43:28.220 fundamentally incompatible and he never tries to form a compromise of like okay listen to her for

00:43:32.680 15 minutes right and then be like sorry i really i i also had a long day i really need to disengage

00:43:37.680 it's three days too much cave time what about if like her problems are severe right someone in her

00:43:43.220 life is is terminally ill is the cave acceptable in that situation i would like to see the outer

00:43:48.460 boundaries of the cave and this is another super dark theme that goes throughout the book he keeps

00:43:54.120 complaining about women trying to change men even though bonnie uh has successfully done it 0.98

00:44:02.100 many times made it making him a much better person even though he still sucks she's basically 0.99

00:44:07.340 trained this guy like a fucking seal so he says the biggest problem in relationships occurs when 0.99

00:44:15.460 a woman shares her upset feelings and as a result a man feels unloved yeah yeah that's that's the 0.99

00:44:21.660 biggest problem in relationships for sure the biggest problem i know the biggest problem is

00:44:25.800 that my wife is upset and i do not like the way that she's expressing it that's he says the most

00:44:32.460 frequently expressed complaint men have about women is that women are always trying to change

00:44:38.040 them later in the book he has a list of mistakes women commonly make one of them is she tries

00:44:45.380 to change or control his behavior by sharing her negative feelings. Parentheses. It is okay to 0.91

00:44:52.000 share feelings, but not when they attempt to manipulate or punish. Yeah, that's not something

00:44:57.620 that you're inferring because you are in desperate need of therapy, John. This is someone who has

00:45:05.280 basically conceded that he takes the smallest comment as like an unbelievably aggressive

00:45:11.400 critique right right and what he's basically expressing here it's like an age-old misogynistic

00:45:17.640 belief yeah first of all the idea that somebody would ask you for some form of support and you

00:45:23.400 would immediately leap to oh are you trying to change me yeah it's like well yeah right like i

00:45:29.960 would like you to behave differently but casting every single one of those requests as some sort

00:45:35.080 of existential threat is just like a huge escalation. And on this thing of like, she's

00:45:41.640 sharing her upset feelings to manipulate or punish you. Is this something that human beings do? Like,

00:45:47.440 can people use their emotions as a kind of hostage situation in relationships? Sure. Fine.

00:45:52.720 Right. But to express this as something intrinsic to women and to express this as something that

00:46:02.720 men should look out for, right? Is she telling me she's sad because she's really sad? Or is she

00:46:10.280 trying to change me? That is just like rank, like black widow stereotypes appearing in the best 0.99

00:46:18.060 selling relationship advice book of all time. He's written an entire book that's dedicated to

00:46:23.800 like protecting his ego. That's like the whole book. And this leads into the next section. So

00:46:29.380 like the next phase of my engagement with this book, once I realized what the project of the

00:46:34.520 book was, right, was like, is any of this correct? Like, is he on to anything? So chapter 12 of the

00:46:42.220 book is called How to Ask for Support and Get It. He says one of the main problems in relationships

00:46:47.680 is that women often feel unsupported. And one of the main reasons that they feel unsupported is 0.98

00:46:52.620 they don't know how to ask for support. So he starts the chapter by saying she assumes that

00:46:58.180 if her partner loves her, he will offer his support and she won't have to talk. She may even

00:47:02.840 purposefully not ask as a test to see if he really loves her. To pass the test, she requires that he

00:47:09.340 anticipate her needs and offer his unsolicited support. This approach to relationships with men

00:47:14.500 doesn't work. Men are from Mars, and on Mars, if you want support, you simply have to ask for it.

00:47:20.080 Eventually, she may ask for his support, but by this time, she has given so much more and feels

00:47:24.760 so much resentment that her request is really a demand. Men don't respond well to demands and

00:47:29.780 resentment. Demands are a complete turnoff. Her chances of getting his support are dramatically

00:47:34.920 reduced when a request becomes a demand. In some cases, he will even give less for a while if he

00:47:40.680 senses that she is demanding more. I like the implication that women do respond well to demands

00:47:45.660 and resentment. Yeah. Well, the whole book is how to coddle his demands and resentment. Right. So 1.00

00:47:52.680 Like, at least he's consistent.

00:47:54.300 The fact that he has, like, not been adequately supportive is a given here.

00:47:59.700 Obviously.

00:48:00.480 Remember when I said that his advice to men is, like, kind of weirdly generic and his advice to women is extremely specific?

00:48:08.980 He says one of the most common mistakes in asking for support is the use of could and can in place of would and will.

00:48:18.280 Could you empty the trash is merely a question gathering information.

00:48:22.680 would you empty the trash is a request what i was seeing this i'm like this is like a weird

00:48:29.580 a weirdly specific thing and then he spends pages delineating exactly what he means by like the

00:48:38.120 specific wording women have to use to get men to support them around the house so again this book

00:48:47.180 has a bunch of like extremely filler-ish lists he then includes 17 quotes from men describing

00:48:55.740 why they hate it when their wives ask could or can this is like the most research he did for 0.99

00:49:02.440 the whole book yeah what shit do you hate the most about your wife so i am gonna send you 0.99

00:49:09.380 four of these quotes oh my god all right when my wife says can you change christopher's diaper 1.00

00:49:17.020 I think, sure, I can change it. I'm capable and a diaper is a simple thing to change.

00:49:21.740 But then if I don't feel like doing it, I might make some excuse. Now, if she asked,

00:49:26.040 would you change Christopher's diaper? I would say, yeah, sure. And do it. Inside,

00:49:30.620 I would feel like I like to participate and I enjoy helping raise our children. I want to help.

00:49:35.560 I want to help. Just not enough to respond when you say could rather than would.

00:49:38.340 Yeah. So I would like to pause because first, this reminds me of like,

00:49:42.200 were you ever in like elementary school and you'd ask a teacher, like, can I go to the bathroom? 0.97

00:49:45.300 and they were like i don't know can you and it's like shut the fuck up and let me pee while using 0.82

00:49:50.260 colloquial speech please but also i just i love this like this book where like this premise spoken 0.98

00:49:58.460 or unspoken is basically like men are rational beings and women are touchy emotional freaks

00:50:04.780 and it's also like by the way even the slightest shift in the way that you speak exactly will cause 0.84

00:50:10.880 me to lose my fucking mind and like question my entire role in the relationship okay next one 0.90

00:50:17.400 next one just this last week my wife asked me could you plant the flowers today and without 0.99

00:50:22.420 hesitation i said yes then when she came home she asked did you plant the flowers i said no

00:50:27.140 she said could you do it tomorrow and again without hesitation i said yes this happened

00:50:32.100 every day this week and the flowers are still not planted i think if she had asked me would

00:50:36.440 you plant the flowers tomorrow i would have thought about it and if i had said yes i would 0.98

00:50:40.360 have done it if only she had asked differently are you fucking kidding me i wouldn't have behaved 0.99

00:50:44.400 like a lazy piece of shit and agreeing to do something for my wife i just not do it it's 0.99

00:50:49.800 actually her fault that i didn't plant the fucking flowers when you think about it normal adult stuff 1.00

00:50:53.940 when i say yes i could do that i am not committing myself to doing it i'm just saying that i could do 0.97

00:50:59.940 it i have not promised to do it if she gets upset with me i feel like she doesn't have a right

00:51:04.480 if i say i will do it then i can understand why she's upset if i don't do it shouldn't

00:51:09.160 shouldn't ask could hey can you could you take katie to her recital yeah i could i have the 0.99

00:51:13.880 ability to do that i have car keys like is that what you think your wife was asking you you fucking 1.00

00:51:18.000 piece of shit you know how human conversations often consist of just walking up to people and 1.00

00:51:24.480 asking them about their abilities and i'm like peter can you swim and you're like yes and i'm 1.00

00:51:28.380 like thank you for that information okay god damn it all right this is last one last one when i hear

00:51:34.760 a could you, I'll immediately say yes. And then over the next 10 minutes, I will realize why I'm 0.90

00:51:39.180 not going to do it and then ignore the question. But when I hear a will you, a part of me comes up

00:51:44.060 saying, yes, I want to be of service. And then even if objections come up and come up later in

00:51:49.000 my mind, I will still fulfill her request because I have given my word. Keep in mind, these are all

00:51:54.740 being marshaled as advice to women. These are the worst people on earth. My wife is asking me for a 1.00

00:52:01.260 simple favor and i am just going to be unbelievably obnoxious and pedantic about the specific ways 1.00

00:52:09.200 in which she asked me just plant the fucking flowers take out the trash like my god and by 0.99

00:52:15.280 the way like i i totally empathize with procrastination on this shit like that's not it 0.99

00:52:21.360 but you can't like rationalize it away as like she didn't ask me right exactly treat me like a 0.77

00:52:27.700 special boy be an adult be like i agreed to it but then i got tired yeah and i didn't do it i want to

00:52:33.180 do it and i know that i should and it would be better for everyone but i'm lazy i yeah i can't

00:52:38.740 manage my priorities blah blah blah that's how it is so this section of this book is so bad that

00:52:44.620 there's an entire academic article about it hell yeah so for this i read a book called the myth of

00:52:51.300 Mars and Venus by Deborah Cameron, which was really interesting. And she describes what's

00:52:57.240 going on here as tactical misunderstanding. The basic premise is that much of what we convey

00:53:03.880 in our speech is not in the literal meaning of the words, right? A lot of it comes from the

00:53:09.120 context in which it's being said. So the example that she uses in her article is when she was

00:53:14.420 growing up, mom would set the table and they'd sit down to eat and then dad would go, do we have

00:53:18.920 any ketchup? And obviously what he means by that is, I would like some ketchup. So mom gets up,

00:53:24.660 she goes to the kitchen, grabs the ketchup, comes back to the table, gives him the ketchup, right?

00:53:27.920 But she noticed that when she, the child, said, do we have any ketchup? Her mom would say,

00:53:33.420 oh yeah, it's in the middle cupboard. Basically implying she has to go and get the ketchup and

00:53:37.460 bring it to the table, right? So that is an example of tactical misunderstanding. Her mom

00:53:41.400 is basically pretending not to understand what the meaning of the words are, right? She's

00:53:47.000 pretending to take it literally, because in the hierarchy of the family, the mom considers the

00:53:53.080 father to be sort of higher than her on the hierarchy, and she is willing to serve him,

00:53:58.300 whereas the kid is lower than her on the hierarchy. So she's going to pretend like,

00:54:01.820 oh, I guess you were just curious about whether or not we have any catch up.

00:54:04.420 This is something that we all do all the time, right? We all speak in ways that are not congruent

00:54:09.900 with the literal meaning of our words, and we all deliberately decide how to interpret other

00:54:15.080 people's speech depending on what we feel like or what our place in the hierarchy is right so

00:54:18.960 when men are doing this they are very deliberately misinterpreting of course these phrases that one

00:54:25.300 guy literally fantasized about a world where she had used the word would instead of could and was

00:54:30.080 like i i think i would have definitely absolutely would have done it i actually did a decent amount

00:54:34.500 of reading on like the actual differences between men and women in communication styles and this

00:54:39.780 thing about tactical misunderstanding is a really good example of the ways that what we think of

00:54:44.840 as men and women and how they're different are actually reflections of existing hierarchies.

00:54:50.640 People higher than you on the ladder are able, they have the ability to be like,

00:54:54.420 oh, I don't know what you mean by that, and sort of make you, the subordinate person,

00:54:58.240 spell out your requests. It's basically this way that people in power treat every request

00:55:03.200 by their subordinates as if they're asking for a favor. They're basically casting themselves

00:55:08.120 in their own marriages in this role of like any support that I give, she has to direct me.

00:55:13.740 And if I acquiesce to her request, it's basically me doing something nice for her.

00:55:19.440 So I want to be thanked for it.

00:55:21.260 I want to be asked in this perfect way.

00:55:23.240 It's something extra that I'm doing. 0.77

00:55:25.200 So this entire interaction is 100% about reestablishing a hierarchy of the home in which men are able to be delegated to, but women are fundamentally the project managers.

00:55:36.940 And they have to ask for any aspect of support that they need under every circumstance. 0.52

00:55:42.100 Mm-hmm. It's hard not to look at these quotes from these guys and see that they're rationalizing

00:55:48.860 something that they don't quite understand. They don't have a good explanation for why they don't

00:55:54.360 do things when they're asked. But here's John Gray coming around with this framing of like,

00:56:00.780 what about this would versus could thing? And they're like, yes, that's it. Because they can't

00:56:07.800 confront this sort of reality um that they are in fact treating their wives as they are as if 0.98

00:56:14.860 they were subordinate or at the very least just being fucking lazy all this reminds me of a fight 0.95

00:56:20.280 that a friend of mine had with her husband where she asked him to empty the dishwasher and he was 0.98

00:56:25.240 like oh why are you always nagging me about this and and his kind of pitch to her was i want to

00:56:30.120 empty the dishwasher as like an act of love to you right i want to do it because i want to do it and

00:56:34.840 it's something kind and when you ask me to do it it takes away the kindness and generosity and it

00:56:40.180 just feels like i'm kind of ticking a box and i don't get to feel like a husband who's like doing

00:56:45.520 his duties right so you're you're robbing me of this emotional satisfaction that i get from

00:56:50.040 emptying the dishwasher yeah and her response to this was like okay great but you feel like

00:56:56.240 emptying the dishwasher two or three times a month and it needs to be emptied 20 or 30 times a month

00:57:01.680 Right. I get that you want to be doing this because it satisfies you. I would also like that. But the dishwasher needs to get emptied. The point of emptying the dishwasher is not to serve your emotional needs. It's to refill the dishwasher. Right. And I yeah, I do. I do understand that when someone's telling you to do something, it's not emotionally fulfilling to do it. I get it. There is a shelf that I have been meant to put up for about a year and a half.

00:57:27.200 Oh, Peter.

00:57:27.740 Well, I don't think it would look that good. My wife disagrees. But I totally understand that like push and pull where it's like, if you're going to do it, you would want to be doing it on your own terms. But on the other hand, it's like the reason that it needs to be done is not so that you can feel better. The reason that it needs to be done is because it needs to be done. Right. Right. Except in the case of the shelf, which I really don't think needs to be put up.

00:57:53.600 But I'm glad we've reached the part of the book where you're recognizing yourself.

00:57:58.820 You're like, well, if she had said, would you put up the shelf?

00:58:01.380 Some people retreat to a TV cave.

00:58:04.580 My cave is just not putting up the shelf.

00:58:07.160 And I've been there for a year and a half.

00:58:09.780 So, I mean, to get into some of the actual literature on gender differences, most of

00:58:15.420 the studies on gender differences in communication, it seems like they do find differences, like

00:58:20.640 on the question of do women talk more than men?

00:58:23.600 It seems like in the sort of meta-analyses that, like, women do talk slightly more than men, but these things are very situational.

00:58:31.780 In the myth of Mars and Venus book, she says,

00:58:35.180 One study of heterosexual couples talk, carried out by the sociologist Pamela Fishman, found that women asked men far more questions.

00:58:42.480 Questions are often used as opening moves in a conversation rather than being straightforward requests for information.

00:58:48.440 Questions like how was your day or who was at the party are invitations to talk about a certain topic.

00:58:52.980 One reason why the women in Fishman's study asked so many questions was that their partners often passed on several proposed topics.

00:58:59.920 By not responding, or responding very minimally, men signaled that the women should propose another line of questioning they were interested in discussing.

00:59:07.220 Once women had offered them a topic they were interested in, they often did most of the talking.

00:59:12.340 But they did not regard it as their responsibility to initiate conversation or find something to talk about. 0.97

00:59:17.840 They left it to their female partner to do what Fishman called interactional shit work. 0.98

00:59:22.920 So even on what seems like a simple question of like, do men talk more than women? 0.97

00:59:27.980 It's like, well, in these studies, they're finding that men and women talk roughly the 0.50

00:59:31.680 same, but women talk more in a way of like fishing around for topics. 0.61

00:59:37.480 And then once they find a topic, he then does more of the talking.

00:59:41.380 This kind of shows up in all of the studies on this is that like, oftentimes you do find

00:59:46.540 differences, but once you drill into the differences, it's like, oh, it's actually

00:59:50.900 really situational yeah that's really interesting i think that i guess i never thought that like

00:59:57.540 women talk more me neither actually yeah that's just never really maybe that's because i like to

01:00:02.560 talk and so the the idea that um it's a female thing would not compute in my brain do you just

01:00:09.080 use the phrase excuse me a man is talking and they talk a lot less i'm mansplaining here i'm in my

01:00:13.820 talking, Kave. Please be quiet. But so there's also something called the gender similarities

01:00:21.140 hypothesis. Okay. One of the researchers on this says a much better way to think about gender

01:00:27.080 differences is that men are from North Dakota and women are from South Dakota. Are there differences

01:00:32.840 if you really look for them? Sure. But there's actually much more similarities if you look for

01:00:37.500 them. So one of the examples that she uses is there is actually data that shows that men are

01:00:44.280 less likely to share personal details in their friendships. That I believe, yeah.

01:00:49.260 When you actually look at the specifics, most men reveal personal information about themselves to

01:00:54.240 their friends and most women reveal personal information about themselves to their friends.

01:00:58.480 But the minority who don't reveal personal information is like slightly larger among men

01:01:03.360 than among women. Okay, there's a gender difference there on average. But the most accurate way to

01:01:08.420 talk about that is that most people reveal personal information to their close friends.

01:01:12.700 That's interesting, too. You know, I there's a couple of levels to this, because you can identify

01:01:17.320 all sorts of differences, potentially between men and women. But then the next level question

01:01:23.740 is immediately, well, is that just socialization? Right, right. I mean, there was there was a study

01:01:28.520 a few years ago that I'm probably going to misremember a bit, but that tried to map male

01:01:35.680 and female brains. This was a big deal at the time because they found that there were some sort

01:01:41.280 of average differences, you know, the size of certain features in the brain, but there were

01:01:46.360 no truly definitive distinctions, no singular feature you could point to and be like, that's a

01:01:53.200 male brain because there's just too much variation in both cases. And even that, you know, whether

01:01:58.700 or not certain types of brain activity might be influenced by socialization can, you know,

01:02:03.560 is sort of up in the air. I would think that a huge chunk of any differences we're seeing

01:02:09.700 are socialized. Well, I mean, reading all this stuff, I actually sort of concluded that, like,

01:02:14.880 I'm not actually married to the idea that, like, there's no differences between men and women.

01:02:19.840 And I'm not married to the idea that, like, there are differences between men and women.

01:02:24.380 In essentially every domain, there are more differences within men and women than there

01:02:29.020 are between them.

01:02:30.380 So in this great meta-analysis, they found that almost all the studies of gender differences

01:02:35.500 find less than a 10% difference.

01:02:38.920 Most of them find less than 5% differences.

01:02:41.660 Right.

01:02:41.940 And people are not only their genders, right?

01:02:45.240 So if you have a person in front of you and you're trying to figure out how talkative

01:02:48.960 they're going to be, it would be really reductive to be like, well, you're a woman, so you're going 0.76

01:02:53.200 to talk more, right? Because there's no such thing as like a woman. It's also a Protestant, 0.97

01:02:59.500 a middle class, a raised in the South, a college educated. There's all these other traits that also

01:03:06.380 theoretically would make somebody more or less talkative. And so at a certain point,

01:03:11.800 rather than doing this like eight dimensional calculation of like, okay, she's white,

01:03:16.540 So she's going to talk more, but she's a woman. 0.99

01:03:18.620 She's going to talk less. 1.00

01:03:19.560 Like you can just treat people as individuals.

01:03:21.120 And in 10 minutes of a conversation, you can be like, oh, this person is a little bit more

01:03:23.800 talkative than average.

01:03:25.240 Right.

01:03:25.360 So like at the end of the day, you're still going to have to treat people as individuals

01:03:28.160 and move forward on that basis anyway.

01:03:30.760 So like, I think it's great to study this stuff.

01:03:32.720 I think it's really interesting.

01:03:34.060 But ultimately, it's really not that useful.

01:03:37.400 And even if you drill down to like the biological level and you're looking at like the brains,

01:03:43.040 right, you can say, OK, there are median differences.

01:03:46.540 between male and female brains but there is there are also areas where they overlap such that you

01:03:53.400 can hold two beliefs at once right one there are median differences two gender exists on a spectrum

01:04:01.340 trans people are real etc right like you don't need to hold on to this binary of there are

01:04:08.660 there are differences between men and women or there are none it's all fake right um but at the

01:04:15.420 same time it almost it feels unnecessary where it's just like just try to be nice treat people

01:04:20.980 like people i mean this kind of gets us to the last section of the episode i mean there's there's

01:04:24.960 more of the book to talk about he has like a whole kind of advice really bad advice toward

01:04:29.740 the end of the book i can read it on my own while i'm just sweating out my autism and my hot bath

01:04:34.240 there's nothing i mean we could easily dunk on this stuff he says

01:04:39.940 you should organize your relationship as like a point system yeah that's healthy for sure whatever

01:04:46.120 it you know qualitatively it's like okay we all sort of hold other people in esteem

01:04:50.340 this doesn't have to be that bad and then he actually lists the actions and how many points 0.99

01:04:55.000 to award oh hell yeah it's like okay fuck this guy i mean i was i was deep in like fuck this guy 0.98

01:05:02.540 territory by the time i got to that part how many points do you lose for disappearing for two days 1.00

01:05:07.040 on your wife and children? Well, it depends on how she asks. But then to get into the sort of

01:05:12.760 legacy and the aftermath and the impact of this book, it comes as part of this huge wave of men

01:05:19.120 and women are different bestsellers that we had throughout the 1990s. Yeah. Almost every single

01:05:23.740 author of every one of those books talked about it as like forbidden knowledge. So John Gray in

01:05:29.600 interviews, he said, oh, you couldn't even talk about men and women being different at that time.

01:05:34.200 and then I came out and said this controversial thing, he described this and the other authors

01:05:39.160 described this as basically a reaction to the excesses of feminism. Because the feminist

01:05:44.000 movement says that men and women are identical in every single way. And so what we're doing is

01:05:50.000 we're reclaiming the idea that men and women are actually different. And like no feminist says,

01:05:55.340 like no one says this. First as tragedy, then as farce. Yeah. Except the farce, I guess,

01:06:00.540 then repeats for 30 more years at the very least. This is like the Ben Shapiro thing of being,

01:06:04.200 like, oh, men are taller. You can't even say that anymore. No one was saying this in the first

01:06:10.100 place, right? But it is interesting to me that this book finds popularity in 1993, which is after

01:06:18.960 what is perceived to be the year of the woman. There's an infamous time cover because in late

01:06:25.560 1991, we had the Clarence Thomas hearings and Anita Hill. And in the 1988 and 1992 elections,

01:06:32.600 we had unprecedented numbers of women elected to Congress. And so in the early 90s, there was this 0.88

01:06:39.020 huge spike in the visibility of gender equality as an issue. And this book, and I think a lot of

01:06:44.820 these other books are part of a backlash to that. You know, reactionary talking points sort of

01:06:49.100 repeat themselves over time. And when you look back, it always looks a little more absurd. The

01:06:54.260 idea that in the early 1990s, you couldn't talk about the differences between men and women. 0.99

01:06:59.640 Are you fucking kidding me? Finally, we're talking about it. Finally. 0.97

01:07:02.240 It's like, no, what actually happened was that it's been like 10 minutes since someone

01:07:07.540 mentioned that maybe we're talking about the differences between men and women the wrong

01:07:11.660 way, and you're freaking out.

01:07:13.520 I mean, this is a podcast about the most harmful books of the last 50 years, and the harm of

01:07:19.880 this book is very difficult to track, right?

01:07:22.480 Because what it's basically doing is it's repackaging this idea that's been floating

01:07:27.560 around the culture and like many cultures for hundreds of years.

01:07:31.280 as some sort of forbidden knowledge, and it's packaging it in a way that is very digestible.

01:07:37.500 I think it's like easy to look at the book in and of itself as sort of trivial,

01:07:41.360 like giving tips to middle-aged dorks who don't know why their spouse is grumpy,

01:07:45.860 but it is part of this architecture of gender essentialism.

01:07:51.100 And once you believe that there are these very clean and specific delineations between

01:07:55.680 male and female behavior, it becomes harder to accept that gender exists on a spectrum,

01:08:00.640 that it's largely performative and not see that not too far downstream from that is like

01:08:07.360 trans people aren't real. 0.98

01:08:08.780 And also, as soon as you start thinking about this stuff, it immediately motivates you to 1.00

01:08:12.140 argue that we should go back to a time when there were clearer roles for men and women.

01:08:15.640 Right.

01:08:15.820 Right. 0.99

01:08:15.980 Because if men and women are fundamentally different, it's like, well, then she should

01:08:18.180 be in the kitchen and he should be working. 0.90

01:08:20.400 Right.

01:08:20.580 It immediately takes you to another thing we see in health grifting all the time, which

01:08:24.660 is like we used to be this great traditional society and like we've fallen from that.

01:08:28.260 Right.

01:08:28.540 We have too much blurred lines between men and women and all this stuff.

01:08:31.680 Right. And, you know, the irony being that this book is a great example of how miserable everyone was in that place.

01:08:39.740 Right.

01:08:40.100 This is his story of not even being able to comprehend the basics of human communication with his wife.

01:08:48.460 But here he is, you know, 25, 30 years later, reminiscing about that time as if it were better and simpler, et cetera.

01:08:55.680 I mean, it feels like he has he constructed an entire metaphor about alien races from different planets instead of just taking a single sociology class.

If Books Could Kill - January 26, 2023

Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus

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