00:04:07.480And I also think that's like a really important reframing
00:04:10.380both within psychology and also among the public.
00:04:12.800Because that goes contra what The Sopranos said about Tony having anxiety attacks whenever he saw meat because he traced it to his father's criminal activity when he was young.
00:04:27.660You're like, give it to me in Sopranos.
00:04:29.160I'm going to figure this all out based on a series of prestige television shows.
00:04:33.480I think the third thing that was important about this book and is one of the reasons why people like it is that the author of this book and the book itself have extremely good politics.
00:04:41.960So one of the critiques that you always hear of books like this that are kind of individually focused efforts to help you deal with your trauma or self-help books in general is that they don't talk about structural forces, right?
00:04:54.200The entire epilogue of this book is dedicated to talking about structural drivers of trauma.
00:05:01.640In many ways, we seem to be regressing with measures like the callous congressional elimination of food stamps for kids whose parents are unemployed or in jail, with the stubborn opposition to universal health care in some quarters, with psychiatry's obtuse refusal to make connection between psychic suffering and social conditions, with the refusal to prohibit the sale or possession of weapons whose only purpose is to kill large numbers of human beings, and with our tolerance for incarcerating a huge segment of our population, wasting their lives as well as our resources.
00:05:29.580When I give presentations on trauma and trauma treatment, participants sometimes ask me to
00:05:33.440leave out the politics and confine myself to talking about neuroscience and therapy.
00:05:37.420I wish I could separate trauma from politics, but as long as we continue to live in denial
00:05:41.400and treat only trauma while ignoring its origins, we are bound to fail.
00:05:45.280In today's world, your zip code, even more than your genetic code, determines whether
00:05:49.700you will lead a safe and healthy life.
00:08:39.740this is like a very complicated sequence of the book one of the things that's interesting if you
00:08:45.680ever look up this book on reddit is like every three months somebody will go on reddit and be
00:08:50.140like my friend recommended the body keeps his core to me and then uh i read it and the first
00:08:54.320anecdote is a sympathetic portrayal of someone who raped and murdered a bunch of people in vietnam0.95
00:08:59.700like as a survivor of sexual assault this feels really fucking weird on the other hand i do want0.80
00:09:04.860to say that all of the trauma psychologists i spoke to said that like if you're a trauma therapist0.92
00:09:11.140you are dealing with people who have done horrible things like a lot of people's trauma is based on
00:09:17.080what's happened to them but also how they react to it like people who were traumatized like beat
00:09:21.600their spouses they yeah maybe they killed somebody in a drunk driving accident i mean this is just
00:09:26.280part of like being a trauma therapist maybe you murder a bunch of children this is just
00:09:30.700no i here's the thing i get it i even as i was reading it i sort of get it right where
00:09:36.820there's this chain of events that starts with this horrible trauma and leads to more horrible
00:09:42.080things yeah it is weird though that the solution it feels like we're working toward
00:09:46.620is like comfort and peace for tom exactly and i think what people are really responding to
00:09:52.600is not just that this anecdote appears in the book but the way that it appears in the book0.92
00:09:56.480Because at no point does Bessel van der Kolk give a single statement of sympathy to this poor woman in Vietnam who had her children killed and was brutally raped for no fucking reason, right?
00:10:07.420To me, this story is a story of, like, the cycle of trauma, right?0.99
00:10:11.360That when you get fucked up, you do something even more fucked up to innocent people.0.98
00:10:15.120That is what this story is, right?0.99
00:10:17.340And I also think fundamentally this is a story about racism, right?
00:10:20.080He wants to impose collective punishment on this woman because she's Vietnamese and he considers Vietnamese people to be like such a distinct species that if one of them does something bad to you, then you can just enact revenge on others of them.0.98
00:10:32.240Like he could have also said like, when I first started out as a trauma therapist, it turns out people have done really fucked up shit and it might seem difficult from far away to talk about this.0.95
00:10:40.420But also I want to prevent Tom from acting these violent fantasies out in his life now.0.97
00:14:51.700At that time, the five signs most often interpreted as diagnostic of homosexuality were, one, buttocks and anuses, two, feminine clothing, three, male or female sex organs, four, human figures without male or female features, and five, human figures with both male and female features.0.96
00:15:11.880I am someone who, like, knows my way around an anus.1.00
00:15:14.540I do not look at these fucking things and be like, oh, my God, it's a butthole.1.00
00:37:40.780There are hundreds of thousands of children like the ones I'm about to describe, and they
00:37:44.280absorb enormous resources, often without appreciable benefit.
00:37:47.280They end up filling our jails, our welfare rolls, and our medical clinics.
00:37:51.860Most of the public knows them only as statistics.
00:37:54.620Tens of thousands of school teachers, probation officers, welfare workers, judges, and mental health professionals spend their days trying to help them, and the taxpayer pays the bills.
00:38:02.900So, stepping up to the American taxpayer.
00:38:05.000I love it when people frame these sort of like social ills as like a taxpayer problem at the end of the day.
00:38:12.360It's like, and even worse, you're paying for it.
00:38:15.220I love saying the word welfare rolls in a book like this.
00:38:32.580She has a history of sexual, physical, and emotional abuse and has lived in more than0.80
00:38:37.94020 out-of-home placements since age eight.
00:38:40.560The pile of medical charts that arrived with her described her as mute, vengeful, impulsive, reckless, and self-harming, with extreme mood swings and an explosive temper.0.99
00:38:51.500She describes herself as garbage, worthless, rejected.0.98
00:38:55.800After multiple suicide attempts, Maria was placed in one of our residential treatment centers.0.99
00:39:00.660Initially, she was mute and withdrawn and became violent when people got too close to her.
00:39:05.220After other approaches failed to work, she was placed in an equine therapy program where she groomed her horse daily and learned simple dressage.
00:41:02.260So he then gets into this adverse childhood experiences study, which is where a lot of the data on like how trauma affects the body comes from.
00:41:09.640He gives a little intro to the guy who is writing the study.
00:41:14.320In 1985, Vincent Felitti was chief of Kaiser Permanente's Department of Preventative Medicine in San Diego, which at the time was the largest medical screening program in the world.
00:41:23.180He was also running an obesity clinic that used a technique called Supplemented Absolute Fasting to bring about dramatic weight loss without surgery.
00:41:32.540This is a technique called Supplemented Absolute Fasting.
00:51:35.580Then, a little later, he would return and, quote,
00:51:38.560accidentally drop his ball close to where a kid was sitting.
00:51:41.680As Steve leaned over to pick it up, he'd nudge it gently toward the kid,
00:51:45.380who would usually give a half-hearted push in return.
00:51:48.300Gradually, Steve got a back and forth going, and before long he'd see smiles on both faces.
00:51:54.780From simple, rhythmically attuned movements, Steve had created a small, safe place where the social engagement system could begin to reemerge.
00:52:03.520In the same way, severely traumatized people may get more out of simply helping to arrange chairs before a meeting
00:52:08.960or joining others in tapping out a musical rhythm on the chair seats than they would from sitting in those same chairs and discussing the failures in their life.
00:52:16.900discussing the failures in your life is a wild way to describe therapy discussing the failures
00:52:21.260now he's just talking about like victims of abuse there are sections in the book where he says like
00:52:25.500talking about a trauma is really important for people but he does it in the way that barry weiss
00:52:30.980says like i'm a liberal this sort of like talk therapy works but like it's always followed by a
00:52:36.400but or a however and also keep in mind right he told the story of that rape victim who like
00:52:41.140she did massages and like it was amazing how much better she felt right the other rape victims like
00:52:46.220oh, she took care of horses and I started high school graduation. She did like the most important0.95
00:52:49.540thing for me was taking care of the horse. This immediate permanent turnaround due to these kind
00:52:54.420of like body-based non-talk therapy interventions. This book contains probably 50 case studies,
00:52:59.420like little vignettes of various like victims of trauma. There's not a single person in this
00:53:03.680entire book that benefits from talk therapy. He infers from this little story about like
00:53:10.660getting a kid to play with a ball that someone who's severely traumatized might get more
00:53:17.140out of helping to arrange chairs and talk therapy. I don't, I understand the beach ball
00:53:22.780story and what, and like the mechanism he's talking about broadly, but I don't understand
00:53:27.200how he's like, similarly, arranging chairs is better than talk therapy sometimes. I don't get
00:53:33.000it. Well, luckily, luckily, Peter, he spends the entire second half of the book articulating this
00:53:38.940exact concept why it helps to do body stuff rather than talking stuff okay but before we talk about
00:53:45.720his prescription to treat all of this bodily trauma we have to go on a little interlude
00:53:52.340mostly because this book goes on an interlude so peter are you aware of the recovered memories
00:53:59.560panic recovered memories panic no this started in the 1980s hold on i'm gonna guess oh yeah
00:54:08.200go go do it let's do this for like 30 minutes just speculate go i feel like this sounds familiar so
00:54:14.900i'm sort of picking at something but the idea that um due to trauma memories get buried yes
00:54:22.620and then you can sort of do certain things to trigger those memories to resurface this is one
00:54:28.660of the most embarrassing episodes in the history of modern psychology and that's saying something
00:54:34.620folks fake science but so the entire thing started essentially in the 70s and 80s when
00:54:40.780yeah there started to be data about the way that trauma was affecting various health systems in
00:54:45.740your body all of the stuff that we've already talked about but people would go to their
00:54:49.880therapists and say oh i have insomnia i'm having panic attacks i'm having these symptoms but i
00:54:55.440don't have any trauma like i had a happy childhood right a lot of therapists took this idea way too
00:55:00.780far. And the therapists were then like, oh, well, what if you have trauma, but you don't remember
00:55:05.600it? You've blocked it out. And so oftentimes they were using hypnosis or other techniques to kind
00:55:10.460of soften people up a little bit. And then they would eventually get them to, quote, remember
00:55:15.520abuse that they had suffered. So the starting pistol for this entire panic was the 1980 book
00:55:23.000Michelle Remembers, which me and Sarah did a whole series on, where this woman under hypnosis,
00:55:29.140quote recovers memories of like years long satanic rituals where there's like hundreds of people in0.50
00:55:37.200a basement in victoria bc in like a suburban neighborhood people are cutting off their
00:55:43.840fingers as part of the ritual they're murdering like 10 to 20 white kittens like every night that
00:55:50.260they're doing this things that if it was happening like you would notice you'd be like right why are
00:55:54.120we delivering 300 white kittens to Victoria, BC every week? But this was, I mean, this was a
00:55:59.120really popular kind of understanding of memory, right? So, you know, of course it's promoted on
00:56:03.600Oprah. It's on Donahue. There's a million like TV shows about it. There's lots of other kind of
00:56:07.660popular books and self-help books, essentially saying like, if you think you had a happy
00:56:11.740childhood, there's a chance that you were like systematically abused for years and you don't
00:56:15.580remember it. So for this, I spoke to Richard McNally, who is a Harvard researcher and the
00:56:21.760author of Remembering Trauma, which is one of the definitive books that debunks this trend.
00:56:27.260The other one is by Elizabeth Loftus. According to him and in his book, Bessel van der Kolk was
00:56:32.900a major promoter of this theory. Okay, now we're cooking. So starting in the 1980s, he starts doing
00:56:38.280these studies that show that memory is stored kind of in this fragmentary way and that people
00:56:44.820oftentimes don't really know that they're storing it. And then in 1994, he publishes an article
00:56:50.400laying out this entire like repressed memory theory the paper is called drum roll peter
00:56:56.980the body keeps the score so the original proposal of this concept was about repressed memories and
00:57:05.360it predates the disturbed song he lays out in this paper and various other things that he writes
00:57:10.560during the 1990s his core thesis that trauma is not stored the way that other memories are stored
00:57:17.580So in this paper, he says, trauma interferes with declarative memory, i.e. conscious recall of experience, but does not inhibit implicit or non-declarative memory.
00:57:28.320So that's essentially the thesis of like the first half of the book, right?
00:57:30.700That your memories of trauma are being encoded in your body and they can't be accessed like other memories, right?
00:57:37.180That you're getting these like fragmentary glimpses, you're getting pieces of a story, but you're not encoding like first this happened, then this happened, then this happened.
00:57:46.520To his credit, Bessel van der Kolk is not like a satanic panic guy.
00:57:50.080I read one of his papers from 1998 where he like explicitly decries the satanic stuff.
00:57:55.220He's like, well, some of that stuff is implausible.
00:57:56.960But he's very focused on this idea that traumatic memories are not the same as ordinary memories.
00:58:03.720And so in this book, The Body Keeps the Score, chapter 11 and chapter 12 are basically recapitulations of this theory.
00:58:14.020When people remember an ordinary event, they do not also relive the physical sensations, emotions, images, smells, or sounds associated with that event.
00:58:23.260In contrast, when people fully recall their traumas, they have the experience.
00:58:28.740They are engulfed by the sensory or emotional elements of the past.
00:58:32.380The brain scans of Stan and Ut Lawrence, the accident victims in Chapter 4, show how this happens.
00:58:38.320When Stan was remembering his horrendous accident, two key areas in his brain went blank.
00:58:43.600the area that provides a sense of time and perspective which makes it possible to know
00:58:47.840that quote that was then but i am safe now and another area that integrates the images sounds
00:58:53.680and sensations of trauma into a coherent story when those parts of the brain are knocked out
00:58:58.160you experience something not as an event with a beginning a middle and an end but in fragments
00:59:02.660of sensations images and emotions so this is why these bodily based treatments are so important is
00:59:08.540because it's embedded in you as these like fragments and you have to put them together
00:59:12.680and you can only do that by accessing these like kind of lower order ancient reptile systems
00:59:18.660basically here what do you think about that about the excerpt i don't know what am i a0.60
00:59:23.280brain scientist that's a fucking old show peter i mean just say a joke so i can move on that was0.82
00:59:30.200my joke let me all right let me fake it for the show oh i think he's missing something0.98
00:59:34.180he doesn't it doesn't seem like he's accounting accounting for some cortex or another uh he
00:59:41.580essentially re-litigates the memory wars throughout the course of this book. So here is him talking
00:59:48.380about the fact that repressed memories are proven science. This issue is not particularly
00:59:54.360controversial. As early as 1980, the DSM-III recognized the existence of memory loss for
00:59:59.540traumatic events in the diagnostic criteria for dissociative amnesia, an inability to recall
01:00:04.500important personal information, usually of a traumatic or stressful nature, that is too
01:00:08.460extensive to be explained by normal forgetfulness. Memory loss has been part of the criteria for PTSD
01:00:13.320since that diagnosis was first introduced. There have in fact been hundreds of scientific
01:00:18.040publications spanning well over a century documenting how the memory of trauma can be
01:00:21.920repressed only to resurface years or decades later. Memory loss has been reported in people
01:00:28.600who have experienced natural disasters, accidents, war trauma, kidnapping, torture, concentration
01:00:33.720camps and physical and sexual abuse. Total memory loss is most common in childhood sexual abuse
01:00:40.220with incidents ranging from 19% to 38%. As early as 1980 thing kind of stood out to me as
01:00:49.180maybe he's cherry picking a time when this actually was more, when the scientific consensus
01:00:54.300was on his side and now it's not, now it's shifted away. Is that what's happening?
01:00:59.020There is still dissociative amnesia in the DSM, like that continues to be there.
01:01:04.020However, it's like really controversial and a lot of people think that it shouldn't be
01:02:05.000She was like, that was the Poconos.0.99
01:02:05.980I would have never driven your whiny ass to Maine at that age.0.99
01:02:09.420Dude, I had a super vivid memory of going up the Chrysler building my first trip to New York on my own, like as an adult traveling by myself.0.99
01:02:17.260So indelible that I took a friend there last time I was in New York.
01:02:20.560And like I didn't even check the website first.
01:02:22.200I was like, well, obviously I remember doing this.
01:06:31.800I was going to say I have memories of being in medical facilities when I was young and for nothing serious, just for like checkups.
01:06:41.340Like I was on a medication when I was young and I would somewhat frequently go to doctors just to make sure that there were no adverse reactions.
01:06:50.580And I have like vague memories of that, but I couldn't possibly tell you where I was.
01:06:55.140Or like dates and months of when you were admitted?
01:21:55.500but then also when i talked to emmy neatfield for this the way that she got interested in0.99
01:22:01.280this book was because she was sexually assaulted on a trip through europe she then had this
01:22:05.460therapist that was like really into this body keeps the score stuff who prescribed a bunch of0.96
01:22:09.160like crank shit to her one of which was one of these like role play scenarios where they wanted0.99
01:22:14.540to act out the time when she was sexually assaulted and like this time you can fight back0.99
01:22:19.400and she's like this feels like you're saying that if i had fought back in the first place i wouldn't0.97
01:22:24.200have been raped which is precisely the wrong fucking message right right to give to people0.96
01:22:28.260who've experienced trauma like it happened because you did something wrong it's like you're delivering0.99
01:22:32.240that message also it just feels like very situational like i don't want to say that
01:22:36.220you should never fight back i also wouldn't say that you should always fight back it's like this
01:22:40.680very situational thing yeah trying to like diagnose the problem as like no people aren't0.95
01:22:45.900fighting back enough that feels like really dangerous he also has this fucking anecdote0.72
01:22:50.140which i might cut this but i can't help myself peter here's this it was early in my career and0.90
01:22:55.320i had been seeing mary a shy lonely and physically collapsed young woman again the way it's just a
01:23:00.480vibe it's a tone the way that he talks about female victims is crazy if books could kill
01:23:05.180listener bumble profile i've been seeing mary a shy lonely and physically collapsed young woman
01:23:10.760for about three months in weekly psychotherapy dealing with the ravages of her terrible history
01:23:16.120of early abuse. One day I opened the door to my waiting room and saw her standing there
01:23:20.800provocatively dressed in a miniskirt. Her hair dyed flaming red with a cup of coffee in one hand1.00
01:23:26.700and a snarl on her face. You must be Dr. Vanderkolk, she said. My name is Jane and I came to
01:23:32.300warn you not to believe any of the lies that Mary has been telling you. Can I come in and tell you
01:23:37.940about her? I was stunned but fortunately kept myself from confronting Jane and instead heard
01:23:43.620her out over the course of our session i met not only jane but also a hurt little girl and an angry
01:23:49.200male adolescent this is the beginning of a long and productive treatment so this is fake for so
01:23:54.560many reasons the the detail i'm stuck on is the fact that she dyed her hair to be one of her like
01:23:59.660alter egos like surely she's gonna switch back to mary at some point does she then have to dye her
01:24:05.020hair again yeah do you dye your hair before or after you mentally switch you mentally switch to
01:24:10.880the other person and then you're like, ugh. This is like outlandishly fake. This is like a
01:24:14.520completely debunked thing where you'd have a bunch of different alters. There's a million
01:24:19.240academic articles about this that it was basically sort of approval seeking or attention seeking by
01:24:23.840patients. They thought their doctors like wanted this and would get subtly rewarded for it. And so
01:24:28.840they would create these alters. This is a phenomenon that essentially only ever existed
01:24:33.260in the United States. I read a super interesting article about this, that they've looked at the
01:24:38.060patterns of, you know, people's different alters. And like, people would constantly say, like, I
01:24:41.780have a four year old, like, that's one of my alters. And they would look at the linguistic
01:24:45.360patterns. And it's like, this is not the language patterns of a child. This is the language of an
01:24:49.220adult pretending to be a child. It's like really easy to identify. And then they also said, over
01:24:53.380time, people at first would say like, oh, I have four alters. But then by the end of the trend,
01:24:59.140people were saying like, I have 250 alters. Right, right, right. It's like a tolerance builds up.
01:25:04.000You're like, well, I gotta, I gotta get my therapist attention somehow. That's like that
01:25:07.660brief period in tumblr history when uh people were just like i'm a wolf yeah yeah they don't
01:25:13.900actually know what anything about wolves yeah they're just like they're just like doing a
01:25:17.420little bit of howling i love that like jane still went to therapy she's like oh i'm like stay away
01:25:23.020from mary she's the worst but also it's two it's tuesday at four i gotta make my appointment she0.95
01:25:27.580wakes up as jane she's like i hate this hair time to put on my hot ass skirt which i also have0.97
01:25:34.260She looked at the calendar and she's like, doctor appointment, huh?0.82
01:25:37.940So I do want to talk a little bit about the research for all of these.
01:25:41.820They're classified as mind-body interventions.
01:25:44.820I also really want to be sensitive to people who have tried this stuff and who like this stuff and who got a positive impact out of it.
01:25:50.700A lot of people, you know, trauma affects people in very different ways.
01:25:54.620And so for somebody to be able to get a massage, like to be touched in a safe environment, that can be like really healing for people, right?
01:26:02.320And things like yoga can be really healing.
01:26:03.640there's a self-esteem aspect a community aspect all this stuff feels like it's real in some sense
01:26:08.340it's not just like it's not just like this magical cure yeah exactly in the way that he presents it
01:26:13.080right like i was joking about it but like getting a hobby is actually a good idea yeah if you have
01:26:19.760anxiety if you're if you have depression like this as far as i know the research is pretty clear that
01:26:25.100that sort of stuff can help it's so important to me to not take anything away from people and
01:26:29.640like if you've benefited from dance therapy or equine therapy or whatever, like that is a real
01:26:34.440effect. I don't really feel the need to like debunk that. If you have multiple personalities
01:26:38.200and one's very frumpy and one's very sexy, that's cool. There's also a lot of research on this and
01:26:43.360a ton of research shows that these interventions are effective. Like I looked up dance therapy
01:26:47.120and there's actually a lot of studies on dance therapy and most of them find a positive effect.
01:26:51.300Like they're small, they're early, you can quibble with the methodology stuff, but it's like,
01:26:54.880it's not remotely implausible that a lot of these interventions would in fact work.
01:27:23.280Most individuals with PTSD do not receive science-based treatment.
01:27:26.940This is a massive problem, and the systems and individuals best able to address it misunderstand key components of the problem.
01:27:34.060Advocates of research-supported treatments have substantial influence and authority in federal agencies, university settings, and medical centers,
01:27:41.600and limited influence authority with the public at large and with many providers, especially those in private practice settings.
01:27:49.380Figures such as Bessel van der Kolk and Peter Levine, who are not consistently science-based,
01:27:54.480have limited influence in government and research settings and enormous influence with the public
01:32:41.320He sent me a bunch of background documents.
01:32:44.100He sent me one document that was like a study, like a before and after study of acupuncture in his clinic, which had nothing to do with 9-11.
01:32:52.860And then the second thing that he sent me was essentially just an advertisement for the clinic and the kinds of things that they were doing.
01:32:59.440He also sent me a JPEG of a woman giving acupuncture.
01:33:06.620Some of the people that they were treating, I'm sure, were 9-11 victims, but they weren't reaching out to like people who were there in the Twin Towers.
01:33:12.260and like they were just providing a bunch of services and the only thing he has as far as
01:33:16.500like a survey of what people liked is this document that just quotes a bunch of like
01:33:21.460patient satisfaction survey results so it says i felt so cared for and cradled i experienced
01:33:26.860great healing here this provides a sense of tranquility so like great but this is not a
01:33:31.760survey of 225 9-11 survivors that survey does not appear to exist i'm just i'm just surprised that
01:33:37.340people whose job is to some degree science are so like disinterested in like the precision of
01:33:45.460the statements being made. Also, he's doing this in service of a conclusion that is not true.
01:33:50.680Bessel van der Kolk is including this one survey of 225 people. Hundreds of thousands of people
01:33:54.800got counseling after 9-11. There's numerous evaluations. So I found one evaluation that
01:33:59.100found 89% of people who got this like counseling service were happy with it. So it isn't the case
01:34:04.900that nobody showed up. It isn't the case that like, I benefited from acupuncture way more than
01:34:09.120therapy. None of this is true. He then specifically talks about CBT and these forms of prolonged
01:34:15.940exposure therapy, cognitive processing therapy. He says, in contrast to its effectiveness for
01:34:20.600irrational fears, such as spiders, CBT has not done so well for traumatized individuals,
01:34:25.620particularly those with histories of childhood abuse. Only about one in three participants with
01:34:29.620PTSD who finish research studies show some improvement. Those who complete CBT treatment
01:34:34.100usually have fewer PTSD symptoms, but they rarely recover completely.
01:34:38.260Most continue to have substantial problems with their health, work, or mental well-being.
01:36:52.060A 2010 report on 49,425 veterans with newly diagnosed PTSD from the Iraq and Afghanistan wars who sought care from the VA showed that fewer than one out of 10 actually completed the recommended treatment.
01:37:05.620As in Pittman's Vietnam veterans, exposure treatment, as currently practiced, rarely works for them.
01:37:10.960We can only process horrendous experiences if they do not overwhelm us, and that means that other approaches are necessary.
01:37:19.760We're getting into like actually harmful territory, right? Because there's a high level view of this book that's just like trauma can manifest in different ways and can be treated in different ways. And there are like alternative treatments that have shown have been shown to have some efficacy. And that's like this perfectly defensible thesis that is in fact like correct.
01:37:39.260But then he just goes that extra step where he's like, actually, like, this is the treatment that is best and should be focused on and appears to be recommending it over the most effective known treatments for severe PTSD.
01:38:05.280So in this passage, he says there's this report on a bunch of veterans and 90% of them dropped out of CBT before they finished the program.0.96
01:38:13.300I've never heard of a fucking 90% dropout rate before in a study.0.82
01:38:16.280Like you would just not publish the study if you had a dropout rate that high.0.98
01:38:18.920That would be a major part of the study.0.83
01:38:25.500This is the percentage of people who went to a primary care provider, said, I think I have PTSD, got a referral to therapy, and either didn't follow up on the referral or didn't go to 10 sessions.