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00:00:13.120You aren't being a proper woman, therefore you must be a witch.1.00
00:00:16.300Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. You must be a witch.1.00
00:00:21.880Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Missing Witches podcast.0.97
00:00:25.880Welcome to Black History Month, and welcome, relatedly, to what we call Imbolc for short, which is the halfway point between the winter solstice and the spring equinox.
00:00:39.280And Imbolc gives us an opportunity to, the way I see it, to literally and figuratively take stock.
00:00:49.360What do we have? What do we have too much of? What do we have too little of? How did we get through this winter?
00:05:13.120And so, yeah, it's like pretty much a whole year of mostly free program.
00:05:18.080We're actually not going to start charging for anything until September, so now's a good
00:05:22.280time to get going on it and enjoying uh the good things that we're offering but yeah we're doing
00:05:27.74028 days of shameless liberation for Black History Month um and people can start whenever they want
00:05:33.420but it's like just 28 days of processing your race story and trying to gently excavate the shame in
00:05:40.120it and heal and move to self-compassion and um and that's some you know it's interesting that's
00:05:45.080some of what we all deal with you know like when when we have a at least I can speak for myself
00:05:49.220when I have a moment like I did yesterday with this organization where I like cursed them out
00:05:53.380there's all I still as a black woman afterwards have this thought like oh I shouldn't have done
00:05:58.560that or I'm taking up too much space or you know I should have um practiced kingian non-violence
00:06:05.860you know and um so then it's like okay I get to actually bring self-compassion to my story
00:06:12.220and and move the shame out because there's no there's never a need for it there's just never
00:06:17.640a need for it. Can I ask, like, who is your dream community that's coming forward to participate in
00:06:25.520Shameless Liberation with you? Like, when you imagine those people coming out of the woodwork
00:06:31.160and finding you, like, can we imagine with you what that looks like, what that feels like?
00:06:37.180Sure. Do you have any ideas? I mean, I think there's a lot of overlap, like, in our community
00:06:43.000and yours but I don't know well I think it's like it's definitely designed for people who are
00:06:47.820pretty earnest um like we we said 28 days of shameless liberation because we know a lot of
00:06:55.400people are not going to be attracted to 28 days of anything you know much less shameless liberation
00:07:00.060so it's definitely designed for like I'm a super intense person I don't do anything lower than like
00:07:07.600in white patriarchal terms is master's level like whether it's vintage clothing or art you know like
00:07:13.400I always get really into things so yeah I mean it's definitely people who are earnest and people
00:07:18.580who are really really interested in being well as they do racial justice work and leading communities
00:07:27.980that are healthy and well so I imagine that will be people who have some sort of influence already
00:07:36.840whether it's like in a spiritual community or a classroom or a non-profit or something like that
00:07:44.120I think I think it's mostly going to be people who have some level of influence
00:07:48.460in leadership position probably but also people who feel tender and around their spirituality
00:07:57.540whatever that looks like yeah thanks I wanted to ask because I want when people are listening
00:08:03.280where they're wondering like is that for me to see like do they hear themselves being called
00:08:09.660yeah description you know yeah yeah I mean first first we center black women in everything we do0.96
00:08:17.660um but I think that's good for everybody yeah me too it's fucking a little bit healing for all of0.74
00:08:24.680us to have that at the center yeah yeah I kind of want to hear from Marceleet and Dr. Beverly
00:08:31.180not to move it along take the reins we love that um marcelina i do love your idea this whole thing
00:08:43.860about the shameless liberation i absolutely adore that because i am a past sex worker
00:08:52.000And I believe that shame is a useless emotion and gets us nowhere. And basically, it piles on our self-loathing, which we as people of color and Black women in particular,
00:09:15.100have been encouraged to have that sense of self-loathing that sense of we're not good
00:09:23.580enough always trying to small ourselves up or like you say not take up too much space
00:09:29.680so I love that whole concept of shamelessness involved in our liberation because it's almost
00:09:38.520like when it comes to liberation work which i do a lot of liberation conjure i'm two-headed
00:09:45.640conjure woman a root doctor and um in the hoodoo tradition in a black hoodoo tradition
00:09:54.420and there's a lot of almost baggage that goes with liberation it's almost like
00:10:03.520some of us feel like we have to ask permission or we have to explain why we want to be free,
00:10:12.240why we want to be liberated from the tropes and the norms and the stereotypes. It's almost like
00:10:19.700we have to say, I'm sorry that I want to slough all of this off. So what you have said really
00:10:27.380struck a note with me and I appreciate that thank you I think I could really build on that
00:10:33.500oh yeah and shame destroys community right it just it just eviscerates our sense of belonging
00:10:40.660it and usually it's precisely the point when we need to belong the most
00:10:45.560um because we need help um or yeah usually because we need help and we're ashamed that we need help
00:10:52.920yeah well thank you for that dr beverly while you we have you can you introduce yourself to
00:11:00.320our audience who may have missed the past couple times when sure we connected here
00:11:05.200my name is beverly smith thank you for having me in some circles i'm called dr beverly
00:11:11.380i am a root worker in the old southern tradition um i am myself i am not a a southern black
00:11:22.820american i am a first generation jamaican um a first generation american born to jamaican parents
00:11:30.260and so that gives me an interesting uh perspective also because i also am tapping into
00:11:38.900my ancestral magic as well so it's very uh i hate to keep using the word liberating but it's very
00:11:47.940liberating for me to approach magic from a cultural, from my cultural perspective. And
00:11:56.060I've really been enjoying it. I've really been enjoying it. I discovered root work about 15
00:12:03.120years ago. So I'm not one of those that will tell you that, you know, my grandmother taught me
00:12:08.320everything I need to know. No, I'm not one of those. My grandmother actually was very strict
00:12:15.080um christian anglican christian and uh dissuaded us from obia which is the name of the jamaican
00:12:26.520magical practices obia she discouraged us from the obia woman from from listening to the obia man
00:12:33.460so it's interesting to come back to my roots and tie everything in and right now for me
00:12:43.200My biggest focus is liberation magic because the pandemic has really affected my community.
00:12:55.560And when I say my community, the vast majority of my clients are Black, femme, sex workers.
00:13:04.440And the pandemic took a huge, huge toll on that community. And so in trying to be supportive and in trying to help make a cohesive, to help the community feel cohesive again, that's been my focus.
00:13:30.000And it's very difficult, especially with the pandemic physically separating us.
00:13:40.160So my focus is on women and femmes, overwhelmingly Black and Latina.
00:13:50.300And I have been trying to, for years, get into the prison system, not as an inmate, but as someone who's there to assist.
00:14:04.140And, oh, my goodness, the layers, the layers of red tape, the layers and the obstacles and the pushback.
00:14:12.360And so I'm still, still two years later, trying to get into that system where I can bring some yoga, some basically companionship. I'm not trying to extol magical principles in the prison system.
00:14:34.000I really want to sort of see if we can build a sense of community with women and femmes behind bars, right?1.00
00:14:46.020Because they are desperately lacking in community with their outside sisters.1.00
00:14:53.820And that has been a focus for me for years now, going on three years.
00:14:58.460And for two years, I've been actively working through the red tape.
00:15:04.000And no matter what I fill out, no matter what I do, I'm still grasping at trying to make those connections work out.
00:15:14.000I'm still trying to get permission from the prison system to actually interact with these people on an ongoing basis.
00:15:29.700And this pandemic has really put a strain on actual, when I say community, I mean in-person community.
00:15:42.740And so by having to face those challenges, now I am happily discovering community that we can do in this sort of sense.
00:15:56.520um yeah I'm getting back to the in-person stuff but still to build community with people that
00:16:04.200you can't touch that you can't see right you can only see through the camera right now people that
00:16:09.900you can't sit down and hug or or spend time with um that's been a that's been a huge challenge for
00:16:17.660me because I'm definitely a touchy feely witch I'm definitely a sensory witch I am a Taurus
00:16:26.440So for me, it's important to have that sense of home and connection with the people that I'm involved with.
00:16:37.520So this has all been a challenge for me. But my main focus in community are women and female identified people who are trying to also deal with their Blackness, also deal with being ostracized, also trying to deal with being thrown away.
00:17:02.780because the people that I tend to deal with are sex workers and um and and and so-called criminals
00:17:11.620and um and inmates and I'm trying to bring them past or not it's not me I'm not the one doing the
00:17:21.900doing the work I'm encouraging that inner work that inner work that everyone has to do I'm not
00:17:28.820going to magically appear and it's my blessed presence that changes everything no i just want
00:17:36.040to be a step in that ladder i just want to help out and it's very dear to me but the pandemic has
00:17:46.840really really put big roadblocks up and now trying to get back trying to get that sense
00:17:58.380back and trying to to almost start from from ground zero has been has been difficult but this
00:18:06.640is why we work we keep working towards self-expression and self-liberation and self-acceptance
00:18:14.080because when we as a people as women have finally accepted ourselves have finally accepted and loved
00:18:23.400ourselves what does um I hope I pronounce her name right she's one of my favorite authors
00:18:30.640to Zoki Shang I think is how you say it it's oh yeah and to Zaki Shangi yeah correct see I told
00:18:38.620you I couldn't spell that I couldn't say that name yeah I had to like memorize it yeah I love
00:18:44.080I love her I love her writings and one of the things that I love one of her quotes that I love
00:18:51.280is, I found God in myself, and I loved her fiercely. I love that quote. And that is
00:19:01.120the crux of my work, is to help people recognize God in themselves, and to love her fiercely.0.99
00:19:13.640because you know hoodooists definitely um understand the magical power of the bible
00:19:22.140they definitely understand the magical power of the bible i am not a christian but i use the bible
00:19:30.580as spell for spell work the book of the the whole entire book of psalms is one is one spell after
00:19:38.620the other, just as an example. And we know that in the Bible, it says to love God as you love
00:19:49.960yourself and thy neighbor as you love yourself. So that's our first rule is to love God. And the
00:19:59.680spin that i put on it is to love the god you see reflected in the mirror that's my it that's my
00:20:08.900whole dogma in a nutshell is to know thyself and come to love thyself
00:20:16.600so that's that's where i am and um that's a lifelong pursuit you know i'm still too i'm
00:20:26.500still working towards that pursuit. So it's like, that's why I call it the ladder. I'm one step in
00:20:32.580the ladder. We're constantly moving toward perfection. And the only way we can do it is
00:20:38.780one step at a time. I spoke to a sex worker, a former sex worker a couple of years ago who told
00:20:46.480me that when she was working in this field, she conceived of herself as a healer. And I really see
00:20:52.460that that relationship between the the sex worker and the witch as being these demonized healers
00:20:59.080and i know marcelette um you wrote i'll misquote it a little bit but um i i do magic because she
00:21:07.760heals me can you yeah can you expand on that notion as you introduce yourself yeah um okay
00:21:21.460can I expand on that notion as I introduce myself? So hello, everyone. My name is Marcelite
00:21:26.520Iola. I am a scholar of African and African diasporic religions. I am also a practitioner
00:21:37.620of hoodoo and ifa and a member of an ile here in Atlanta, Georgia. And I am of African and0.76
00:21:48.280italian descent african on my mama's side and italian on my dad's side um yeah so i'm a scholar
00:21:54.800i'm a practitioner um i approach my work equally from those two places um healing healing how does
00:22:05.620healing well i think i'll share with you all what's been on my mind as in in the past two days
00:22:13.940um I saw the documentary on Zora Neale Hurston that just came out on PBS I highly recommend it
00:22:22.480it was so beautiful um and watching it I was such a nice reminder to to really
00:22:34.060to do what calls no matter this no matter the systems at hand right she um she was studying
00:22:48.640the traditions of our people um even within the constraints and as a as direct opposition to the
00:22:57.180constraints of the academy directly up in that position to anthropology and their kind of you
00:23:03.760know textbook ways of studying people right um and i i personally am reminded that
00:23:15.760that this is that because of her and this legacy there are so many other black scholars now black
00:23:26.540women scholars especially that are able to you know study and understand ourselves and our people
00:23:33.180and document our practices in ways that feel authentic to us you know and I think more and
00:23:39.820more I'm realizing that the the line between scholar and practitioner is so thin it's just
00:23:48.540part of it is is you know the process of divination divining on our you know asking the
00:23:57.040ancestors about things and then a part of it is is reading books too and they're just so
00:24:02.200intricately um inter embedded in each other um so yeah so i think i'm just right now in terms of
00:24:12.200healing i'm thinking about honoring myself more in terms of remembering the whys of of academic
00:24:22.000scholarship and um and re re rooting myself and rooting myself back in a community of lifelong
00:24:31.460learners you know at the end of the day um that's how i feel i feel a part in bringing
00:24:40.840back to community i feel like a part of a community um of just people who are endlessly
00:24:47.480searching and learning about our african diasporic traditions um in any in any way possible through
00:24:56.480the books through the divination through the practice through every all of it you know um
00:25:02.800and just remaining humble and present in that can you talk a little bit about sorcerers of knowledge
00:25:09.500this is was is such an exciting project to me and again i i'm gonna read one more little thing that
00:25:17.840you wrote in your the sort of ending where you you do your about section that you say that you
00:25:23.000learned through magic how to scream away the racism that's stuck in our bodies and how to
00:25:31.100heal my sisters I think everyone wants to to hear more about that I love that I love that you bring
00:25:39.220that up I wrote that a long time ago so I've been doing a lot of writing since it's nice to be
00:25:44.560reminded um of some of my past work um so sorcerers of knowledge was a is a uh spell book that i
00:25:53.600compiled um based on um uh based on uh rituals collected from right behind me um harry middleton
00:26:06.160Hyatt's uh volume of collection of root work um from the 1930s and the 40s um he went down to the
00:26:16.760south and um and met with I think 1600 black folks um and collected all of collected stories about
00:26:27.740root work and so it's based on on those those texts um and they're kind of some of them are
00:26:33.400reinterpreted and reworked um based on available uh herbs um some things are not available anymore
00:26:40.220um so yeah so it has um so there's some spells for healing and for manifestation and clarity
00:26:49.400um you asked me about screaming away the racism i think that for me personally comes from
00:26:59.140my own experience growing up in a very rural, um, KKK kind of town. Um, I grew up outside of,
00:27:11.860uh, Gresham, Oregon, um, which is, um, if anyone knows anything about Oregon, they didn't allow
00:27:18.000black people in there for a very long time. Um, and I grew up in my mixed race family, um, where
00:27:23.760it was very common to see people with militia and stuff so so um who do or who do or just kind
00:27:35.600of an eclectic spiritual practice was very much a part of how my family how me and my mom especially
00:27:41.560um uh navigated navigated that kind of racism um and did spells for all kinds of things and
00:27:52.260you know divined and read our tarot cards when we needed to and offered oranges to Oshun at the
00:27:59.820river and um yeah it was just kind of a way of of it was a way of um maintaining well-being
00:28:10.200in the midst of it um and also getting justice when we found when it was right when it was you
00:28:19.960know when it was appropriate but um yeah I think that's what that meant when you were right and
00:28:26.360when it was appropriate that's a tough one and I know Dr. Beverly you have thoughts on this in
00:28:33.120terms of ethical divination in terms of you know asking the question before you go out and take
00:28:39.900the action um can you talk a little bit about the your ethics of divination I am a practicer of
00:28:47.260as I mentioned earlier, and I'm definitely what they would call, I work with both the right hand
00:28:53.680and the left hand. And anyone who practices hoodoo understands what I'm talking about.0.91
00:29:03.140I feel like sometimes in the larger or the more white magical practices,0.71
00:29:15.720there is this there is this emphasis on love and light all right but i have to remind people with
00:29:27.980terry a quote by terry pinch it and i can't say it word for word but basically it's wherever
00:29:37.680ever the light reaches, it finds a darkness waiting for it. So we have light and we have
00:29:47.160dark, we have day and we have night. And the work that I do, I will not hesitate to do what is called
00:29:56.580negative work or baneful work if the circumstances call for it. And I discover
00:30:06.160whether it's justified or not. Because when I walk into my house, I want to walk into my house
00:30:12.320justified. I want to walk into my house knowing that if I have done something baneful, it's because
00:30:20.140it was warranted and I discover that through divination and so before I do anything that
00:30:30.420would be interpreted as something other than love and light I check with divination I give a check
00:30:40.800in with divination I have used tarot cards for many many years but in the last five or so years
00:30:50.120I've really gravitated to throwing the bones. For me, learning tarot was a struggle. It was a
00:30:58.280struggle. It was literally a lifetime struggle. I started probably when I was in middle school
00:31:03.200and it was a struggle. The first time I saw the bones thrown and understood when I was taught
00:31:12.160the basics behind it and understood the first time they were thrown, I read them with ease.
00:31:22.240And I feel that's my ancestors coming back to me. Because in Obia, chicken bones are thrown.0.52
00:31:30.740So I feel like if I am going to do something that may be considered less than good or less than positive or less than helpful or less than loving, I want to make sure that through divination, my ancestors and the deities that I acknowledge are on board.
00:32:00.740I have to make sure if they tell me, no, don't do it, I won't do it because then I can't call
00:32:07.100myself justified. All I can call myself is angry or reactive or anything but justified.
00:32:16.800It's important for me to be able to justify my actions. But once justified, I will not hesitate
00:41:34.680anybody I was gonna say something about justice and I can kind of go along those lines but I was
00:41:44.440gonna also say that um just to echo what y'all have been saying but how it's been how hoodoo
00:41:52.720has been such a tool of resistance for so long right like um i think about i think about um
00:42:02.480albert ravito and he says that um he's a famous scholar of religion he says that you know it
00:42:09.520wasn't that the energies weren't themselves weren't seen as as good or bad they were seen
00:42:16.400as security and danger and how they brought in security for the people that were practicing them
00:42:24.600right and also how these traditions were systems I guess in this way I can think about community
00:42:31.500but systems that provided alternative forms of justice for Black people when there wasn't when
00:42:40.000there was no form of justice I mean not that there is now right not that you can necessarily go to
00:42:45.200cops when you have a problem can't usually um but um but yeah you know someone causes some harm
00:42:53.540um someone raped somebody on another plantation during slavery and what do you do you go to the
00:43:00.180the conjurer the root worker right um so so as a a system of accountability amongst enslaved
00:43:09.080African people, African-American people. And in thinking about cases of resistance,
00:43:17.360I know Dr. Yvonne Chirot writes about this a lot, but Nat Turner rebellion, the Denmark Bessie
00:43:24.620conspiracy, so many cases where we see Conjure being very much a part of this resistance.
00:43:34.520um and I recently thinking about stories I was recently read um I think it was in those books
00:43:42.380also I referenced them quite a bit um but this uh this woman who is a practitioner
00:43:49.000of her and her husband call themselves practitioners of witchcraft um and she
00:43:55.580so it shows a story about her i think her uncle who was in a car was a taxi driver or some kind
00:44:05.020of car driver and um some some uh some guys are like running away they were robbing a store and
00:44:13.280so they're running away and they get into the into her uncle's car um and uh and he gets and
00:44:20.880her uncle, similarly Black, gets charged with the robbery, and they had killed the person in
00:44:28.200the store also. So she goes to this Dr. Buzzard and a kudu person, and she asks for a spell to0.99
00:44:40.320help free her uncle, and it works. But thinking about, you know, again, just kind of conjure1.00
00:44:47.880as this uh practice of justice and in dealing with the law when it is um just as it is often
00:44:57.420very unjust right um absolutely i mean when you ask about what is my concept of community
00:45:09.060it really goes I mean one of the root words is commune you know it's a it's a group of people
00:45:19.920who share values a group of people who share a narrative and to me that's the ideal community
00:45:31.300would be a community where the people are in charge of their own narrative
00:45:37.360or narratives plural and people who can count on accountability
00:45:48.680we have to control our own stories our own destinies but we also want accountability
00:46:00.420not just for ourselves because we do need to strive to be accountable personally because0.98
00:46:08.400karma is a grown-ass bitch okay we need to be accountable but at the same time0.97
00:46:15.840we want the larger the larger community that the society that we live in to be accountable1.00
00:46:27.040And in so many ways, justice has eluded our communities.
00:46:36.220In so many ways, justice has eluded our Black people.
00:46:42.540and from the earliest days of when our kidnapped ancestors were brought to the americas and the
00:46:53.600caribbean the only way that we could reach for accountability the only way that we could move
00:47:03.160towards accountability was through our ancient practices our ancient magical practices you know
00:47:12.940you're on a you're on a on a on a on a plantation being raped every night who are you going to
00:47:20.220complain to the overseer or the the the master who's raping you you've got no justice so you0.88
00:47:28.920go to that root doctor and get justice. That's already been said here today, but I have to0.91
00:47:35.680highlight that because for so many people of color, particularly Black people, our only justice0.99
00:47:48.540is homemade. Our only justice is the justice that we create, because the system does not do right1.00
00:48:00.560by us. The system is skewed against us. I mean, everyone knows this. We don't need to have a long
00:48:06.540lecture about that. Justice eludes Black people in many, many ways. And so for me, that is the
00:48:17.320biggest thing that's the biggest thing that attracts me to to conjure to magic to to to
00:48:25.980manifesting my reality is that I am in control of my narrative and if I harm someone else
00:48:39.540they have the ability to get justice from me. And if I am harmed, I have that magical ability
00:48:48.600to extract justice. And really, I can only speak for myself, but for myself and looking at my
00:48:59.840mother and my grandmother, that's the only way we could really extract justice. Even my mother
00:49:11.300and my grandmother, who are not Hoodooists, who would sit here beside me and condemn it1.00
00:49:18.380as a thing of the devil, they were doing the same stuff. They were doing the same things1.00
00:49:27.160in the name of the holy trinity they just don't see it as magic they they see it as praying
00:49:34.640they see it as praying upon the blood of jesus praying using the blood of jesus christ
00:49:40.060so in in many ways i don't fight that because they are creating their own narrative
00:49:48.680they are living their authentic lives they are being authentic to what they believe
00:49:56.540And so I don't fight against that tide because I'm all about Black people have been robbed of our agency, especially Black women have been robbed of our agency on this, on this, you know, on Turtle Island, on this landmass for so long, for over 400 years.
00:50:20.200they've been robbed of their own agency and I can't speak to what was going on
00:50:26.240in pre-slavery African continent um I leave that to the scholars and the academics and I
00:50:35.680appreciate that but as I speak for today hoodoo for me has been my biggest liberation
00:50:45.220and has been my biggest agency it has given me agency that no other magical system has given
00:50:52.540i've been a druid in many ways i still consider myself a druid um i've been i've i've dabbled in
00:51:00.220in various wiccan type traditions and for me the greatest agency comes for me from hoodoo which is
00:51:09.140not a religion it's not it's not a religion per se it does have religious aspects but you don't
00:51:17.820have to practice a particular religion to be involved in hoodoo or conjure and for me that's
00:51:24.200been the most liberating is that I can take this system and I can work with it because what you
00:51:32.520put into it is what you're going to get out of it. And, um, I found that for myself, very uplifting
00:51:39.220and I, I find it for myself, a way of self-expression that I've never had before.
00:51:46.580And so for me, that is very healing for me that has healed a lot of the pain.
00:51:53.940And you have to understand I'm old enough that I remember busing. I was part of the, I was,
00:51:59.680I was one of the last so if you if you go and google it you'll be able to guess my age because
00:52:05.340I was among the last students public school students black students who were bused to white
00:52:13.180schools and I remember that and I remember how to live uh debilitating that was and how
00:52:21.580you almost felt like a non-entity at least I did and I was six years old a six-year-old
00:52:29.320child in first grade being bust and that put a huge cloud over my life a huge cloud dealing with
00:52:40.280that abject hatefulness in your face hatefulness you know for a tiny child to deal with it within
00:52:50.580the school i mean a school bus of um all age groups of all grade school of all grade school
00:52:57.100age groups. That was very, very tough. But I believe that that, that that laid out the path
00:53:06.100of my life. I believe that as a six-year-old, I was looking for justice. I was looking for
00:53:13.540something to tell me, to validate my experience. And it took a lifetime. It took a lifetime
00:53:25.280time for me to get to where I am now. And so that's why I want to share what I know, what I
00:53:34.300have, what has healed me. I want to share that with younger people because I don't want them to
00:53:40.040wait till they get to the age that I am now before they feel that liberation, before they get that
00:53:47.880sense of I am living in a white supremacist society where I'm not valued, I'm not loved,
00:53:56.980I'm not even seen unless I'm seen with a jaundiced eye. I want to make them understand they do not
00:54:06.820need to be seen by this society. They need to walk in their own path and write their own narratives
00:54:16.300and and and press towards their own self-determination and for me that's that's
00:54:25.160that's the whole thing about magic is self-determination what do you want to manifest
00:54:29.840today what do you want to heal today what do you want to highlight today what do you want to fix
00:54:38.920today hoodoo is very practical it's about having enough to eat it's about feeling protected and
00:54:48.340secure it's about um you know sex love and romance it's about mundane things like money
00:54:58.140all very necessary it's not as concerned about the state of your soul or the state of you know
00:55:08.660your afterlife, but how do we deal with today? How do we get through this day? How do we lay
00:55:17.700the foundation for tomorrow? How do we give our children what they need? How do we give our
00:55:24.160neighbors what they need? How do we give ourselves what we need? And not to belabor the point,
00:55:31.660but that is what I really love about Conjure, is that it takes a very practical look at dealing
00:55:38.340with white supremacy and dealing with this society that we are a part of we cannot separate
00:55:46.360ourselves like the old communes of the old days even they weren't separated and even they were
00:55:53.180a temporary thing the communes of the 50s and 60s and 70s very temporary but because we have to live
00:56:03.820in this society because we have to deal with these factors because we have to deal with these
00:56:09.080obstacles that are constantly thrown these micro um you know these these micro um aggressive
00:56:17.260aggressions and these cuts these death by a thousand cuts because we have to deal with that
00:56:29.060and it affects our health and it affects our mental health also and it affects our spiritual
00:56:35.220health also because we have to live in this world and be a part of this white supremacist society
00:56:42.500we have to find ways to cloak ourselves and to heal ourselves and to walk where we want to walk
00:56:53.220with our heads up, but also in safety and with self-confidence. And Kudu really does
00:57:01.980address a lot of those issues. And so when I think of creating community, I want to create
00:57:12.900community with people who have the tools to help themselves, to have the tools to manifest
00:57:20.400something in their lives and that's why I feel a magical tradition whatever it may be whatever is
00:57:26.840right for you is going to be the best way to do that because you are going to manifest for yourself
00:57:36.980you're going to manifest change for yourself and by lifting ourselves up the tide lifts all boats
00:57:47.000a rising tide lifts all boats and so that is how I view creating community is giving people the
00:57:55.640tools to have self-agency I'm glad you brought up like the sort of mythical they were real but
00:58:02.040nowadays we sort of think of them as like a mythical place these communes of the of the 60s
00:58:07.520and I I did a little reading about this because again like I I feel like in in our modern western
00:58:14.720society you know in order to get by in order to survive not get by in order to survive you have
00:58:19.740to have wealth or community and we have just entirely focused on that first one of of hoarding
00:58:27.140you know amassing wealth and why is that not illegal to to amass wealth in this way and so
00:58:32.800i was doing some reading about these communes like what happened did the did the the hippies
00:58:37.820just grow up and become yuppies and everyone just moved you know but that that's not really what
00:58:43.280happened often what happened was that the government would um what's the word that I'm
00:58:50.880looking for where you decide what what a piece of land is for I had it in my head rezone the land
00:58:57.200they rezoned the land they would bulldoze the structures that people had made so that brings
00:59:04.780me to this question for all of you which is like we have this notion of I love our only
00:59:13.000justice is homemade of homemade justice but we are up against a force that wants us to fail
00:59:19.160that wants us to fail at building community because when we build community together that's
00:59:24.340really bad for the economy and really bad for the billionaires who are counting on us
00:59:29.140to feel like we can buy our way out of fear so i i guess my question is very broad like how
00:59:38.380When we're up against a force that really wants us to keep on this individualistic capitalist thinking, how do we build communities that last?
00:59:49.440Something that really just rose to the surface for me when Marcelite and Dr. Beverly were talking was just about how those of us who have ancestors who were enslaved, really, you know, our ancestors did a phenomenal job of maintaining community in the midst of enslavement.
01:00:11.780And we don't often talk about that. We usually talk about the trauma that we've inherited, but not necessarily the like quite magical ways that they devote, like despite the demands on their time and the physical demands on their bodies and all these other things, they were doing all these practices together to be one, whether it's dancing or hush harbors or conjure work.
01:00:35.740Um, and what to me feels resonant is that like, in order for someone to, you know, as
01:00:42.640Marceline said, you know, go to the conjure, to the conjurer and, um, say, Hey, I have been
01:04:52.180and the other way I was thinking about building long-term sustainable communities is also in
01:05:00.620terms of legacy and so I've been thinking a lot about how again I'm thinking about Zora I'm thinking
01:05:08.260about Zora Neale Hurston I'm thinking about the legacy of Black women that have that are and here
01:05:13.360and here are coming after her right and then and then in the academy particularly because that's
01:05:21.220where I am, um, just making sure that as Black women scholars, especially who are studying
01:05:32.320African heritage religions, that we're bringing each other along with us, right, that we're,
01:05:37.920um, my advisor, Dr. Diane Stewart, is very committed to mentoring, um, uh, Black,
01:05:46.940i'm going to say mentoring black students interested in studying these traditions and
01:05:52.280making sure that and through programs like the melon program making sure that black and brown
01:05:58.620students are entering higher education entering the academy and changing how you think about
01:06:03.920knowledge production and creating spaces where people can be fully whole and fully free and
01:06:10.680fully themselves without having to pretend in terms of this like white man rationale kind of
01:06:17.840you know whatever um for people who are listening I was acting like I was buttoning up my shirt
01:06:24.120as a white man um but yeah so making sure that we're and that we're collaborating with each
01:06:34.180other um and i think this is oh and so i want to say and the in academia there can be and i think
01:06:42.240in any space there can be a sense of scarcity right um that there isn't enough for um there
01:06:49.420aren't enough jobs there aren't enough um my ideas or my ideas you know um or we kind of feel like we
01:06:59.100to protect what is ours um and that that's just such a characteristic of these white supremacists
01:07:11.220often white supremacist spaces um but the beauty that's the beauty of being a witch the beauty of
01:07:16.740magic is that where there isn't we don't believe in a lack we believe in our power we believe in
01:07:22.980our ability to create what we need as the beauty of conjure the beauty of hoodoo we believe that
01:07:29.560we can create what we need in this world and so when we don't think about when we're not thinking
01:07:35.360about scarcity we're not thinking about lack we're not in competition we're not envious of other
01:07:40.360people and so we can freely bring in and build community with each other and we can we can
01:07:48.920support each other um i always make sure i try to any undergrads that come to me and they just
01:07:55.760want to talk i want some book recommendations or whatever um you know call me i'm here um but you
01:08:03.000know just just simple ways that we can make sure we're bringing each other in and bring each other
01:08:07.900on making sure that we're mentoring um taking on grad students for faculty taking on grad students
01:08:14.900especially black and brown grad students right that were um teaching books and were yeah that
01:08:21.720were teaching books that are not just um academic books that were in by other faculty members but
01:08:28.140also by practitioners and making sure that money is going to practitioners right um how do we how
01:08:33.760do we bring everybody everybody has everybody benefit um from from the work i love so much
01:08:43.260that you highlighted witchcraft and hoodoo in specifics ability to defy the delusion of scarcity0.93
01:08:52.240I think that that that fuckery that is so at the core of colonialism and of capitalism is so much
01:09:02.960something that I'm passionate about our magic doing in our work and in our writing work and I
01:09:08.140I know, Christina, this anti-capitalist work is so core to what you're doing as well.
01:09:13.360Just thank you for talking about that.
01:09:14.700I did want to say, like, or open it up, if you have, now that you've sort of met each other and you started, I can see you beaming and, like, nodding, full body nodding at each other.
01:09:25.860If you had questions about each other's work or questions for each other, they're probably more interesting than the questions we have.
01:09:32.120Well, I don't have a question, but I wanted to speak to what Marce Light said about scarcity.
01:09:54.440If they can convince you, when I say you, I mean society at large, that there is a scarcity of resources, then they build that whole competitive thing that I want mine and you can't have yours.
01:10:13.160And that leads to hierarchy. And it leads to othering. And it leads to racism. Because it's like, oh, wow, there's a scarcity of this, that or the other. Well, who gets it? Well, not those people.
01:10:29.660So that's basically that whole crux of white supremacy is that unless you are white, you cannot have what we have.
01:10:48.080It is a building up of false scarcity. And it's a lie. And it is the major building stone of colonialism and sexism and racism.0.89
01:11:04.000it is one of the biggest building stones because all of a sudden I've got to have mine and I don't
01:11:11.720care about what these people who don't look like me what they get I don't want them to have
01:11:17.880anything I want it for me to me and my clan only and that's that all of that is a lie
01:11:26.160because we all have that divine power that that god-given gift to manifest what we need
01:11:38.320there is no such thing as scarcity it is used to divide us it is used to make us attack
01:11:49.500and otherize each other to separate ourselves it is basically used to separate community
01:12:01.560and and so uh that really that really rang true for me that whole concept of scarcity
01:12:10.240and how it is used against the poor, against women, and against the indigenous and various
01:12:20.940people of color. It is used against us, and it's all a lie. What it does is have us acting like,
01:12:28.960and when I say us, I mean us collectively, acting like, behaving like crabs in a barrel,
01:12:34.840you know climbing over each other hurting each other to get to to get to the top
01:12:41.600and it's it's all an illusion it's an illusion and that's one of the things that I try to bring
01:12:51.380forth when I'm sharing what I know with the the younger generations is don't be fooled
01:12:59.560by the rhetoric. Don't buy into this societal concept of, I've got to get mine. And if that
01:13:12.200means you can't get yours, oh, well, don't be fooled by that. Because that is strictly used
01:13:18.780to pit us against each other. And right now, we need to shore each other up. Right now,
01:13:25.980we need to encourage each other and band together. You know, bringing it back around to Liberation
01:13:32.840Conjure, we can't do it alone. We can't, you know, I working on my Liberation Conjure cannot free all
01:13:42.240of my people. But if we all work on it, we are going to see the tides turn. And there is no
01:13:53.360scarcity of liberation either. They are telling us that for some to be free, the rest of us have
01:14:01.680to be held back. And that's all a lie. And for me, that's the most important thing is to realize
01:14:09.720that scarcity is a lie. I've never really heard it put the way Mars Light put it. It has to be,
01:14:16.920we have to understand that it's a fabrication and that is a tool used to divide us and when we
01:14:25.300when we understand that then we can start looking at things in a different light and approaching
01:14:31.440this life this society our our our issues and our needs from a totally different direction
01:14:39.760instead of grasping and and and fighting each other and crabs in a barrel and and and trying
01:14:47.340to get ahead we can work together to bring up to bring all of us up together and I really feel
01:14:55.640like liberation conjure that that the whole concept of working magic for liberation that
01:15:04.220when liberation comes, it will also liberate those who are chained to that lie of white supremacy.
01:15:15.540Even those who are white will be liberated by liberation, if that makes any sense.
01:15:27.960So I add to the scarcity. Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.0.69
01:15:34.220Oh, okay. Can I go? Oh, I also wanted to just add on because what Marcelite said about,
01:15:40.840you know, scarcity and academia really resonates with me too. My first career was in academia and
01:15:47.160I don't think I felt, I felt so viscerally the like colonial lie that had like that sort of
01:15:58.520like divide and conquer of hegemony um I never felt it more viscerally than when I was faculty
01:16:04.400at Duke because I feel like that was the most prestigious school that I was faculty at and0.88
01:16:09.200I have never been more um undercut by black people than I was in that space um because
01:16:19.560there was so much resource scarcity but I actually um I I don't really blame my colleagues my black0.96
01:16:28.320colleagues because this whole school is a plantation and what plantations teach you is0.94
01:16:33.400how to be the most powerful negro on the plantation it does they don't teach you how to get off the
01:16:37.080plantation and so they were all we were all fighting to be the most powerful one who could0.88
01:16:44.080be you know because that there could only be one of us even though there were I was at Duke Divinity
01:16:48.100school. And I think there were 11 black faculty. And so, you know, it's, I, I, I, I, I get why
01:16:58.920we do this to each other because fear is so loud all the time. Resource scarcity is so loud all
01:17:07.880the time. And I've sort of made it my practice in the mornings. I say, I'm not going to get up
01:17:13.780from my practice or move on from my practice until the cheer of abundance is louder than the
01:17:17.820clang of fear, because I have to connect with that abundance, or else I'm just going to go and
01:17:23.820model what's been modeled for me, which is go to the Ivy League schools, make as much money as you
01:17:29.660can, be as bougie as you can, you know, like, that's totally the family that I come from.
01:17:35.420And that's what honestly, most of the people, most of my elders in my field have modeled.
01:17:41.060You know, there are a bunch of terribly unhealthy people with tenure and it's, that's just the
01:18:56.660She's like, yeah, your life is indigestible and your body's telling you that.0.99
01:18:59.740And so in that three months of just being bedridden, I had like a kind of like, okay, an awakening. And that's when I learned about the Ohlone way, which is, um, a way, uh, the Ohlone people, they're like a triplet from California.0.99
01:19:15.600Actually, the tribe, the tribal land that I grew up on, because I'm a California girl.
01:19:20.120So I'd heard of them, but I just didn't know much about them because colonialism.
01:19:24.960But I read a book about them that a friend recommended.
01:19:28.060And apparently, on average, they did 19 hours of industrial work a day, a week.
01:19:34.780I'm sorry, 19 hours of industrial work a week.
01:19:37.340And then the rest of their so-called work time was spiritual and community practices.
01:19:41.680so basket weaving hunting fishing gathering that was 19 hours a week on average and everything
01:19:49.780else sweat lodge prayer time building community eating together that was considered the work day
01:19:56.120and so in that that summer when I was bedridden I was just like okay like I'm just gonna commit
01:20:00.800to this I don't know how it's gonna work because I work with Duke and it's a plantation and I have
01:20:05.380like demands, but I'm only going to do 19 hours of industrial work, answering emails, writing papers,
01:20:12.440teaching courses, and I'm just going to trust. But I was only at that place because I was so
01:20:19.140desperate, like rock bottom. You know what I mean? Like I can see why someone who, I mean, I wasn't
01:20:23.900ready to, if you'd asked me that five years before, I'd be like, I can do it. I'm, I burn, I crash and
01:20:27.640burn every three, three weeks, but I can do it. You know what I mean? Cause that's what capitalism
01:20:31.600teaches you and everyone teaches you that you know that's what you're you're you're awarded
01:20:38.620for that especially as a black woman right being the strong black woman the mule and so I think
01:20:44.860like that awakening changed my whole life and I'm grateful for it um but now that's what I do I do
01:20:50.520I do less than 20 hours a week no matter what the deadlines are no matter who's asking me to do
01:20:55.160things but I just don't know I honestly don't know how I would do that if I were still in academia
01:21:00.660because I work for myself now so that's a that's a big question for people like Marceline I'm just
01:21:04.940yeah so I guess I say all that today I would love to hear you respond and just share about that
01:21:10.240what do you Christine what do you do now I'm just sort of like an independent um dreamer
01:21:17.360writer creator rabble rouser pilgrim yeah it worked out I mean I quit in 2019 yeah I quit
01:21:29.180duke in 2019 and it's it's been awesome um and definitely like abundance has provided
01:21:37.940i never know how at the beginning of the year every year i'm like how am i gonna like live this
01:21:45.960year but yeah so yeah but i was a professor for 11 years oh wow
01:21:53.860okay i am i read my cards so i've been thinking about abundance and scarcity for a bit because
01:22:04.020i've been looking for a job i've been looking for that faculty job and um and so i read my cards
01:22:10.020and the last card was about destiny and this belief one of the first one of the cards was
01:22:21.540like abundance and the next card was destiny um and it felt like such a reminder I mean I think
01:22:31.300I feel like that's where the faith comes in right that's where like I have to remember that okay
01:22:38.040I don't know I don't know I mean yes like the 20 hours a week become possible
01:22:49.160because of the faith because of the trust or because of that maybe that there's something that
01:22:56.220is um I don't know I'm still trying to figure out what the relationship between destiny and
01:23:06.740well can I can I chime in what you're saying yeah because I feel like there's a magic there
01:23:11.260like literally a magic because sometimes I have like actual deadlines like a book deadline or
01:23:16.740like i've agreed to do something or i'm just stressed because the income this month isn't as
01:23:21.900high as it has been and i have people on my team that i pay who depend on me um and so there's that
01:23:28.300sense of i should just cheat and do a little more work because i need to right but i've i've never
01:23:36.000done that i've always just stuck to it and what's always interesting is magically the words appear
01:23:41.480it's like oh I need to this week I need to get
01:34:02.300I just have to say that I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I promise this will be the last thing. But when you talked about the separation of the sacred and the good, the necessary separation of our notions of the sacred and the good, Christina, I remembered that you told me about the sacredness, that the God of your conception is welcoming of our sacredness.
01:34:24.240and so i i want to encourage everyone you know to go out and make a sacred mass and find your
01:34:31.120abundance thank you so very much all of you for being here thank you so much thank you for having0.98
01:34:38.140me thank you for having us and bless the fucking bee bless the fucking bee bless up bless up1.00