00:06:04.200but it's like, why can't that money go into funding a social worker for the school or go
00:06:11.100into having legal aid for a kid who, you know, later his record or her record at the age of 20
00:06:18.560is going to prevent them from getting a certain job because they're going to have that on their
00:06:22.420record or they're going to lose their license. And it's like, that's what we should be putting
00:06:27.000the funding into and i you know the cops have too many jobs too many jobs and too many resources i
00:06:36.160mean they're they're bringing tank tanks to high schools and the teachers can't buy books
00:06:41.880yes absolutely i totally agree with you yeah it blows the mind yeah so from an from an insider's
00:06:51.020perspective i had a couple friends who a few friends who went to law school and they told me
00:06:56.120that it's intentional the um the the disenfranchisement in terms of the language that
00:07:06.720gets used in terms of the complexity of law um they told me that yeah their feeling is that it's
00:07:13.420intentional they want people to be disenfranchised they want you to think that you need to pay a lot
00:07:17.660of money to whatever yeah and that's the problem because oh there's like two barriers i lost your
00:07:23.660sound oh sorry can you hear me yeah okay so my my question was like is this disenfranchising it's
00:07:30.500on purpose can you you're nodding yeah I totally agree with that and I think that there's a lot of
00:07:38.160attorneys who almost want to keep it like you have to come to me for any basic question and look I
00:07:44.860just opened my own firm and I feel like I almost hurt myself because I'll get on the phone with
00:07:49.440someone I'll be like oh you know you don't really need me for that you don't really need to pay me
00:07:55.820for this yeah and I'm like you know that's not really a legal thing but the person would open
00:08:01.660up their pocketbook and pay for it and I don't really understand that it's almost like you know
00:08:07.120I want to do work that makes sense and that people feel like after they paid me they don't feel like
00:08:13.140regret and I think that that's what attorneys should do you should make sure that you're adding
00:08:19.080value you're not making it more complicated for someone and I think that it's really important
00:08:24.580like even in contracts to try to use more plain language so that people can understand it and
00:08:30.800you know I just think that it's overly complicated for no reason but I do think that that is a
00:08:39.700gatekeeper because it's like one you don't maybe someone doesn't know a lot of attorneys then you
00:08:45.600finally meet an attorney and then you can't afford to pay for them and then you just have no access
00:08:50.900to the system and then you try to figure it out yourself and then you get stressed out and there's
00:08:58.860an impact on your mental health and then finally at the end of the day when you realize that you're
00:09:02.400going to have a bad result because you did it yourself you're like oh maybe I should hire an
00:09:05.800attorney and then you spend way too much money trying to fix the issue so I think if it was more
00:09:11.180understandable and easier than people could go to an attorney and say, okay, I need you for X, Y,
00:09:16.920and Z and not feel like they had to spend money on the entire. But what I try to do is I try to
00:09:22.940give my clients options. Like I'll do some landlord tenant work and I'll say, okay, I can do this
00:09:29.160notice for you, but you can also mail it out yourself if you'd like to. You don't have to pay
00:09:33.120me, you know, $400 an hour to mail something for you if you don't want me to, you know, especially
00:09:40.340because I don't have a paralegal yet so it's kind of like that option of like hey here's a template
00:09:45.340you can pay me for you know going over the template for you but you can send it out until we get to
00:09:50.760the point that I should get involved things like that and if we had more generalized templates I
00:09:56.320know again not to return to the police too much we'll go away from them but people talking a lot
00:10:01.760about how if you get robbed say your house is robbed the police come basically what the police
00:10:06.620are doing is filling out an insurance form for you so you can make your insurance claim it's very
00:10:11.940rare that they're going to find the person who took your stuff yeah but you need to call them
00:10:17.800just to get this capitalist form filled out right so do you think that indeed this too could be
00:10:24.620replaced by some sort of template that just gets filled in by yeah or even have a social worker go
00:10:31.420to the scene of the crime and de-escalate it you know not the scene of the crime but like the scene
00:10:35.760the accent and help someone fill out the form you know yeah like i i've spoken to nurses and and
00:10:44.040and bartenders and teachers and all of these people who manage to de-escalate situations
00:10:49.440without shooting someone in the face or murdering them and so it it it's it's bizarre to me that
00:10:57.800this is this is where but i think that even like in the legal system what's hard is that
00:11:03.960I don't think people are given enough training on de-escalation, not just cops. Like I think
00:11:09.540even for myself as a judge, the first time I was on the bench, it was like horrifying. Like
00:11:16.540if, you know, people are coming in my space, yelling at me. If the guards hadn't been there,
00:11:24.880I don't think I would have successfully de-escalated it. And thank God I have these
00:11:29.760wonderful volunteer guards who come in I don't think they're armed at all but they just stand
00:11:35.900between us and tell people to back up but that first night I like I think I had someone scream
00:11:41.660at me that like my village was more corrupt than the entire country of Russia which was because
00:11:47.020he got a $35 parking ticket which I don't actually agree with that statement that he made
00:11:53.280but and especially because um when I was elected I was 27 so there's a lot of men who come in who
00:11:59.420we're not happy that they see a young woman on the, you know, on the stand. And if I wasn't
00:12:05.860someone who practiced witchcraft or did Reiki, I feel like I wouldn't know how to create barriers
00:12:12.800and do those things. So let's get into that. Tell me about the intersection of witchcraft
00:12:17.980and lawyership. Yeah. So it's really funny because the first time when I was first in court right
00:12:23.720after doing reiki training it my level one i remember how you guys always say like when you
00:12:31.960go looking for witches you find them everywhere yeah first time i was in court after my reiki one
00:12:38.660training i'm in the bronx and i see this judge and she's wearing these crystals and i'd never
00:12:44.820noticed it before i'd appeared before her in the past and i was on this matter i knew opposing
00:12:49.620counsel. We were friends and he walks away. And I said to her, I was like, is that tourmaline or
00:12:56.240whatever I asked her? And she was like, yeah, like, it's really good. And we got into talking
00:13:00.580and I was like, you know, I just went for my Reiki one. I was like, I'm actually a judge as well.
00:13:04.300She was like, okay, if you go on the bench, these are the stones you have. She goes, do these. She's
00:13:09.680like, you have to go for Reiki two. So you know, the symbols, put these symbols on your bench.
00:13:13.720She was like, this is what you have to do. And I was like, this is amazing. And of course,
00:13:18.760opposing counsel my friend was like are you still talking about the case should I come back and she's
00:13:22.220like no no no no give me a minute it was awesome like and it was like of course like literally the0.86
00:13:28.700day or two days after going for reiki training I meet another judge who's a reiki master and a witch
00:13:35.940and it was like of course of course like now that I'm open to it which I mean I was always open to0.99
00:13:41.480it but now that I'm like actively like thinking about it and more attuned yeah yeah that's I mean
00:13:48.360everything is there yeah you know everything is always there you don't see it until you start
00:13:53.920looking for it absolutely and then once you start looking you think it's everywhere yeah because it
00:13:59.080is so do you find like this this um judge that you were talking to was a woman oh yeah i i assume
00:14:08.720yeah i think you said she a bunch of times but i just wanted to double check so do you find that
00:14:13.620there's a difference between uh like um how much we know there's racism in the law how much sexism
00:14:20.280do you see in the law you said oh god so showing up being angry that there's a young female judge
00:14:25.340who's going to judge them and what else yeah I think there's a lot especially um to be honest
00:14:32.100when I would I would when I first got out of law school I would appear in a lot of cases in
00:14:38.500upstate New York because you're a young attorney do the traveling bill and it would make me so1.00
00:14:45.040angry because that's where I felt like I was the only young woman attorney it was all old white men
00:14:52.940who had been practicing law for 50 years probably had like a monopoly on it in their town and I
00:14:58.820remember I was in like the I don't even know where upstate New York and this attorney like
00:15:04.040called me beautiful on the record and was like oh like like on the record and was like oh your
00:15:11.800firm should always send like you up here and I'm like looking at the court reporter and the judge
00:15:16.780and I was like are you gonna tell him to shut up I was like are you putting this down on the record
00:15:21.040I was like what's going on here and you know I couldn't and the judge was like yeah you should
00:15:27.880stop and I was like well I'm so glad I had to speak up for myself at the age of 24 like
00:15:33.220you couldn't do it like I feel like if I had been the judge I would have been like contempt you're
00:15:38.220out of here because I think you're special people think that um that telling you you're beautiful
00:15:45.920is a compliment but really what they're saying is I'm judging you based on your looks yeah and
00:15:50.140it's like I'm here to do a job like that has nothing to do with yeah and my whole thing was
00:15:55.760that whenever I would go upstate I would say okay I need to you know ask people where's a great spot
00:16:04.340for lunch in your town and really take an interest in where I was so that it wasn't like I was just
00:16:10.360someone coming down from coming up from the city and being like oh I'm just here to do work and I'm
00:16:15.080you know I don't I'm not interested so it's like I'm always taking the time to talk to opposing
00:16:19.920council and establish that relationship and I was just like so offended that then we get on the
00:16:25.720record and he started saying stuff like that so you know because trust me I love the woods I love
00:16:32.080areas that aren't populated so but that also makes me nervous about the more you know the more rural
00:16:42.200somewhere is the less access to justice people probably have and the less because to me on Long
00:16:49.340Island and in New York, there are a diverse group of attorneys and you can, you know, approach
00:16:56.020people in the court. And I feel like in those rural areas, sometimes I was like, how is this
00:17:01.380approachable for anyone who lives in this area? You know, it's been the same people for the last
00:17:05.86050 years who know exactly what they're doing. And I feel like it must be even harder. It would be
00:17:11.640interesting to talk to an attorney out there, but. So what, what would be like your number one,
00:17:18.060if you were in charge of access to justice for the whole of the United States, what would be
00:17:22.860your first action? I would love to give more funding to Legal Aid because I think that if
00:17:28.220more people had the ability to get a free attorney, then they wouldn't try to risk doing things
00:17:35.040themselves. I remember when I first got out of law school, my best friend, her mom had a tenant
00:17:43.540and the tenant was literally completely destroying the apartment hadn't paid in weeks and her mom
00:17:49.940that was really her only income and she really needed it and it just happened that like when
00:17:55.280all of katie's my best friend's siblings were younger they you know her dad had built an
00:18:01.300apartment it wasn't like they were you know these wealthy landlords and i reached out to legal aid0.99
00:18:06.660and i was like you need i need an attorney for this woman and they wouldn't give her one
00:18:13.080because they were like we don't represent landlords and it's like I understand but this
00:18:18.780isn't the same kind of situation and I know that landlords are typically not the ones who need
00:18:24.660funding but sometimes they are and I think that then she had a situation where someone was in the
00:18:30.460house for like six months and she didn't have the money so I think that there needs to be more
00:18:36.520access for people for traffic tickets for you know landlords who can prove that they need the help
00:18:42.220that someone's taking advantage. Um, but I think, you know, I understand why legal aid only sticks
00:18:49.880to tenants now that I've been more involved in the system. I get it. Uh, but basically that means
00:18:57.180that people who do need access to the legal system and do need help have to rely on attorneys who
00:19:02.240will do pro bono work only instead of being able to go to legal aid. And do most attorneys do some
00:19:09.740pro bono or not really even I'm not sure I feel like there's attorneys who you know it's hard at
00:19:18.440the sole practitioner and mid firm level when you work at a in big law I think they do a lot more
00:19:25.660I've never worked in big law but I I've heard that like they give them the ability to do extra hours
00:19:31.880um but it's hard for like mid-sized firms and solos to have the insurance coverage and have
00:19:39.200the money to be able to do it because i mean most people when they get out of law school have six
00:19:43.280figure debt yeah so it's like you need to start earning even for me like my pro bono work is like
00:19:51.700helping a friend's mom out or helping you know seeing where i can help the community in some
00:19:57.300way or like saying to protesters i'll represent you because as a judge i'm not allowed to go to
00:20:01.460protests so you know saying okay if someone gets arrested let me know and i'll be there
00:20:07.180and can we can we put that information in the show notes a lot of our list most of our listeners are
00:20:13.120american so they can legitimately reach out to you like on long island then i will help them yeah
00:20:17.980the city's a little far from where i live right now but that's okay if you're on long island
00:20:23.080yeah so let's talk about now about district attorneys because this is uh uh um an elected
00:20:31.340position we hear a lot about you know voting for the president we don't hear a lot of you mean
00:20:36.880just DAs no oh the district attorneys yeah yeah yeah DAs so how come we don't hear anything about
00:20:43.600voting for DAs it seems to me that they would be responsible for a lot of um suggestion of
00:20:49.280sentencing for example and a lot of things that really would affect people's lives post arrest
00:20:54.120every court is different there are some courts where you're elected and some where you're
00:20:59.180appointed so I don't know if all DAs are elected because I think a lot of them are also let me say
00:21:08.180so this this could be something this could be something that our listeners might have to
00:21:12.240research for their own local kind of yeah yeah in some areas they can be elected and some areas
00:21:19.240they can be appointed so I know that like in Queens there was an election but I don't know
00:21:28.960again i mean you're a lawyer and you don't know and this to me like really really speaks to like
00:21:34.840the level of complexity going on that's that's doing this gatekeeping yeah and also because i
00:21:39.460don't handle criminal law so i don't do anything in criminal law i won't touch it um i would love
00:21:46.440to my one of my very close friends from law school is a da and an ada and she knows what0.75
00:21:53.440she's doing so she probably hit me over the head for not knowing is she a witch too no no well0.79
00:22:01.540sorry girl okay let me change lanes here um i'm going to read the first amendment
00:22:08.500and then maybe you can tell me how over the past 200 years since it was written
00:22:13.580we've completely missed every single point on it okay listeners ready here we go first amendment
00:22:19.460of the U.S. Constitution from 1791, 229 years ago. Congress shall make no law respecting an
00:22:31.560establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof or abridging the freedom of speech
00:22:37.060or of the press. Here's where we're going to really get sticky right here. Or the right of the people
00:22:43.240peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances so0.92
00:22:49.060melissa what the fuck is going on how can we how can you sorry i'm canadian yeah how can we0.72
00:22:57.000see this first amendment seems pretty clear it's not this like legal mumbo jumbo it's very clear0.98
00:23:02.700language how do we get from the right of the people peaceably to assemble and petition the
00:23:08.200government to a military enforcement against this? Yeah, I think this is such a complicated
00:23:16.640question. Yeah, if it were easy. I mean, you go back to the history of the police and why they
00:23:22.700were established, and then you see what's going on. For those of our listeners who don't know,
00:23:27.780why were the police established? To bring slaves back to their owners. Thank you. So0.99
00:23:34.600when you look at that reasoning and then you see what's going on it's very clear why the first
00:23:42.920amendment is not dealt with this the way it's written because if you have an institution that
00:23:50.500is taught to do something a certain way they're going to keep doing that and the problem is i
00:23:57.220feel really bad for some cops who maybe they don't know how to get out of it i don't know
00:24:03.740like speak up like say something yeah but then we also see like I I don't have the names in front
00:24:10.400of me but certainly I could send you a list of cops who who did say something and then were fired
00:24:14.520absolutely absolutely so I mean I think we're just gonna sit here and moan just like
00:24:22.320exactly because the institution protects what they were set up to do and it's I mean I think
00:24:32.980that's why i really believe in defunding the police and you know it's kind of like i always
00:24:39.580remember like working in corporate america or even in like a mid-sized firm there's like that0.97
00:24:43.640person that's like the oh shit person like oh shit nobody does that give it to this person0.99
00:24:48.520oh shit nobody does that give it to this person oh shit nobody does that give it to this person1.00
00:24:52.620and all of a sudden you realize that mary sitting in the corner does 15 000 different oh shit jobs1.00
00:25:00.660has no cohesive structure and she can't manage it all so every once in a while you have to review0.99
00:25:08.340everything that mary does all of these oh shit jobs and distribute them to the staff as they0.98
00:25:15.000should have been from the beginning and to me that's like the cops they've been established0.99
00:25:20.400for the wrong reason then we kept giving them oh shit jobs and like any corporation america needs0.98
00:25:27.360to go through what they do and say, wow, checking in on sexual assault victims should be done by a0.99
00:25:34.920psychologist or a therapist or a social worker and not by someone who has no experience. And
00:25:42.280that's, you know, the suicide rate amongst cops is incredibly high. It's not healthy. Like you're
00:25:47.300putting people in a situation that's also not fair. Like create jobs in other ways. Don't make
00:25:54.600people feel like they have to be a cop they have to do this because their family always did it
00:25:58.920have social working social work jobs available have all these other career paths that people
00:26:05.460could do and train them properly and you know put that money into it and then you don't have0.99
00:26:12.140no shit company that's just oh shit the whole the whole system is just oh shit yeah so how are you0.99
00:26:21.700feeling these days, like as an insider in the legal profession, are you feeling hopeful or are1.00
00:26:27.340you feeling dejected? So it's funny because I feel like a lot of people, when they find out that
00:26:34.140I'm a witch or that I do Reiki and I'm a judge, they're like, oh, that gives me hope. I'm like,
00:26:38.680oh, that's so sweet. But that's terrifying that like, but I do like that. You know, I think that
00:26:48.100there is hope in the system and i think things are changing and i think there's so much more1.00
00:26:52.900work to be done um i think it's great that people keep posting like last week was not black lives
00:26:58.360matter spirit week like we have to do this for a long time everyone needs to understand that yeah
00:27:04.560yeah and i wish i knew the original person who said that um but it's true it's like this is
00:27:10.100gonna last for a very long time and we need to make sure we're on top of it and you know keep
00:27:16.140pressing because it's like Breonna Taylor's um killers have not been brought to justice yet
00:27:22.000there's so many people and you know I can't wait to be honest I am white and straight and
00:27:28.000being arrested certainly isn't the end of the story then we have
00:27:33.060to go through but I have to say that even on a local level that's definitely something that
00:27:39.960when I have like a young black male come in front of me I make sure that like I'm extra friendly to
00:27:46.900him and he feels comfortable like that's part of what I do as a judge in the system here here are
00:27:53.080your options basically like you yeah as much as I'm legally allowed to do within the system and
00:27:58.460honestly like I really think that like giving people the option and more education on it whether
00:28:04.780they're coming in and they don't speak English or they're coming in and they have a lot of tickets
00:28:09.120I think it makes people feel more comfortable when a judge takes the time out. So I think
00:28:13.260that judges should do that. So that even if you had a scary circumstance, hopefully it isn't at
00:28:20.260the end. Yeah. It can still be turned around by the end. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So let's go through
00:28:29.380again. We are going to defund the police. Absolutely. We're going to put that money into
00:28:37.040legal aid services and social work therapists and and and our schools of course I think number one
00:28:46.900is really schools because if schools had more funding then teachers could be able to have more
00:28:54.360help to continue doing their jobs as well as they do um and then legally so it's like schools and
00:29:01.180legally and then I think social workers is a part of both of those if you had a social worker in a
00:29:06.580courtroom or a social worker at a school, then that would make everyone's lives a lot easier.
00:29:12.300So I'm going to ask two questions. Number one, what is your message to judges and lawyers?
00:29:20.700Oh, I feel like to judges, it's like, make sure you take the time to look at someone's record,
00:29:29.480to encourage them to get an attorney. If they don't listen, maybe force an adjournment anyway
00:29:35.500and say, I'm going to give you time to think about it because you're allowed to do that legally.
00:29:40.620Include notices in other language in your courtroom so that you're immediately giving
00:29:46.180people information in a language they understand, depending on your geographic area and what
00:29:52.580languages would be the most helpful. And then for attorneys, I think do pro bono as much as you can
00:29:58.060help people out because I think it comes back to you. If you're helpful to people, then people
00:30:03.720end up wanting to bring you legitimate work that adds value and you can help them with and also
00:30:10.320try to use plain language as much as possible why aren't we doing that thank you okay so then what
00:30:17.260is what is your message to witches and lay people who are outsiders like myself who don't work in
00:30:22.720the legal industry but have this like drive to justice one witches are everywhere um and
00:30:31.000even in the Bronx and even out on Long Island you could be appearing before another witch so don't
00:30:39.060worry but I mean I think it's really important to if you're a witch and you're using that
00:30:44.720identification you're a part of a group that was persecuted and you need to realize that
00:30:49.420ending white supremacy is part of your job as a witch and can you repeat that please
00:30:54.200say it again for the people in the back yeah ending white supremacy is part of your job as a0.86
00:31:00.600and as a human and you know we're we're we're a white on white conversation right yeah and I
00:31:07.660know that most of our listeners are white a large percentage of our listeners are white so
00:31:12.700I think it's okay for us to talk about what we need to be doing personally yeah and to be honest
00:31:19.440so we have an election out here and I live on the north fork of Long Island and someone ran for
00:31:26.360office under the stand Black Lives Matter. And she was elected. I really like her. I actually
00:31:32.980emailed her the other day about something I wasn't happy with. And she responded really quickly and
00:31:38.160was like, I'm actually on top of this. She's awesome. I'm really excited to have an elected
00:31:42.960official that I really support. And so Black Lives Matter is part of her platform. And one of my
00:31:49.820neighbors who is one of the heads of the conservative party said to me there's like 10
00:31:56.840black people out here why do we need to have the platform black lives matter and I was like
00:32:01.120that's like literally why we have to have it I was like do you not get that and you know it's0.88
00:32:08.480kind of like that's you know it doesn't matter if you're from an area that's mostly white like
00:32:14.040there's a reason why it's mostly white there's systemic racism like look into these issues like
00:32:18.760and you know i have to say my area there's local facebook groups and people have been doing a lot
00:32:25.000to raise awareness and it's unbelievable the amount of racism that the black community has
00:32:30.620encountered out here and you know what if that town council members one stance made them feel0.55
00:32:36.880more comfortable then yeah that's what you should be doing it doesn't matter if there's no black
00:32:40.420people you have to still be anti-racist so it's it's really important yeah absolutely
00:32:48.700black lives matter can you imagine arguing with that like arguing again like oh well there's only
00:32:54.400so it doesn't like what so their lives don't matter you're like i don't get that there were
00:33:00.360only 12 disciples of jesus i mean you know if we're gonna use these arguments the numbers really
00:33:07.280shouldn't yeah exactly it's wild yeah yeah so i want to say again just to make sure i'm clear
00:33:14.700if someone is arrested for protesting on long island they can reach out i will help them you
00:33:20.860can put my name down my name is on a lot of the local groups and there's also this amazing
00:33:25.800woman online i think her instagram handle is j williams esq and she is also a lawyer and a witch
00:33:32.700and she put a list together of attorneys that will help businesses and help people who have
00:33:38.520been arrested so i'm on that list as well and if you follow her then you can access she has like
00:33:44.200a link to that list so people could get that too can you tell me the handle one more time so i can
00:33:48.880like the letter j yeah j williams esq1.00
00:33:54.500she does a really awesome um job at like you know communicating legal information to the public on0.98
00:34:04.960her instagram and um yeah you should check her out i'm like plugging her even though i don't
00:34:11.520really know that's okay that's what we do plug people we don't know and raise their voices
00:34:17.580thank you so much melissa it's been wonderful to have an outsider insider conversation where
00:34:24.900we were so completely in line it does make me feel a tiny bit better about maybe a little more
00:34:29.660hopeful but there are judges and lawyers like you who are actively trying to upend the system and
00:34:36.300yeah and create something better for all of us hopefully and hopefully it can I think that's
00:34:42.660the importance of being in some way a part of the system that you can do it from within
00:34:46.860yeah I think we need both to really break it down 100 is important
00:34:52.240so one last question and then I will get let you get back to your very busy legal business
00:35:00.600imagine there's a young person listening right now who's thinking about law school
00:35:07.840what is your advice oh it's hard because i feel like
00:35:13.800do it if you can get a scholarship i think that the loans are so enormous for some people that
00:35:23.300it's not worth it i think that if you study really hard and you can get money off of that
00:35:29.620tuition then it's worth it or if you have the privilege to have it paid for a hundred percent
00:35:34.280and I hate to say that that like because I think some of the best attorneys I know have loans
00:35:39.420but I just think it like I don't know it like that's probably a bad answer no no it's the the
00:35:47.920costs are crippling and even the costs are really crippling for a lot of people I know and I think
00:35:51.980that that's really scary and then it puts them in a position where they're doing work that they
00:35:56.240maybe don't want to do. And then it puts everyone else in a position where the only people who are
00:36:01.160lawyers are the people who can afford to go to law school, which is not. Exactly. So I feel like
00:36:05.600it's such a difficult question. I think that if I was talking to someone who wanted to go to law
00:36:10.060school, I would say definitely study as hard as you can. Go to a law school that's affordable for
00:36:14.760you. I don't want to discourage anyone from going to law school. I think you just have to know what
00:36:20.420you're taking on in terms of debt and you know it's worth it but there's also other careers you
00:36:27.940can do if you don't think you can handle that debt um I was really lucky that I was able to
00:36:32.880get a scholarship but I think that I hope that people can do that too I think there are a lot
00:36:37.280of I don't know I'm just rambling so maybe maybe part of our defunding if the police can go into
00:36:42.060scholarships exactly good we're gonna have so much we're gonna have so much money when we defund
00:36:48.300the police will be able to fund all of these beautiful programs yeah it's so hard because i
00:36:53.100feel bad when people end up having this huge crippling debt and then they have to do something
00:36:58.660they don't want to do in the law and i think that's a really scary thing for anyone whether
00:37:04.080it's college or law school um and i think that that's definitely a problem that america has
00:37:08.300yeah that one one of the many yeah yeah our education system is just not accessible
00:37:15.480which is a massive problem so if you look at the amount that the police cost us then I think that
00:37:22.460it could be a lot more affordable for a lot of people absolutely do you have anything else that
00:37:27.860you want to get off your chest before we call it for the day no I think I'm good thank you so much
00:37:34.080Melissa and um we'll go everything we'll put the show notes together together okay um and make sure
00:37:39.520that we're not missing anything in the meantime everyone go follow j williams esquire um on
00:37:45.740instagram and your instagram handle do you want to say it or leave it out yeah it's melissa m-e-l-i-s-s-a
00:37:52.380i-s-z and we'll put it in the show notes too so you can follow melissa and if you're in long
00:37:57.660island getting arrested i don't know how you're listening to this podcast right now but just keep
00:38:02.380it in your head if it happens everybody because again this is not over spirit week it's not
00:38:07.320It has to continue. And I mean, again, we're two white women talking to each other right now. And so we will say to each other, when we feel like it's never going to be good enough, that's correct. It's never going to be good enough.
00:38:22.420So if you are like, I'm giving up on this anti-racism thing because it's never going
00:45:21.920and ensuring that it actually does live up to the principles it's based on.
00:45:26.600So ICE was in the, it's kind of, you know, been forced out of the news cycle,
00:45:31.100but ICE was pretty heavily in the news cycle for a little while.
00:45:34.200Like, what is your insider perspective on ICE?
00:45:40.000So for anyone who doesn't know, it stands for the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
00:45:44.940It's the law enforcement arm of the Department of Homeland Security here in the U.S.
00:45:51.080So they're tasked with enforcing and regulating the immigration laws here.
00:45:57.340They're the ones that will pick up people that are alleged to be here without permission in the interior of the U.S.
00:46:06.660And they also are the one, their legal arm is the prosecuting arm in immigration court.
00:46:13.180So they're the ones that bring charges against people in immigration court.
00:46:16.940And they were only created after 9-11 when the Department of Homeland Security was created in 2004.
00:46:23.100All of this was prior to that creation, all under the big branch of what was the Immigration and Naturalization Service.
00:46:35.100And that's where they just threw in the kitchen sink of immigration.
00:46:38.100Border Patrol was there. All of the random administrative services were there.
00:46:44.100And the argument was that by putting all of these in a differently structured agency that ICE would be the one to focus on the enforcement operation, whereas CIS, which is another agency under this Homeland Security, would be tasked with just doing administrative, you know, paper pushing, so to speak.
00:47:10.920like you've got your paperwork done you meet the requirements you're granted great you don't you're
00:47:15.720not and um that was it and then the border patrol is obviously a little self-explanatory they just
00:47:21.160kind of um enforce and protect um the border but in the recent administration we've seen
00:47:29.960a weaponization in a sense of the other administrative agencies cis where it's um
00:47:37.800they're working so much more in conjunction to try and pass information and make cis in essence
00:47:48.360another arm of ice so it's not as independent or objective or neutral as it used to be and so
00:47:55.720that's a big concern and a big um red flag that we're seeing now on the ground here as we practice
00:48:02.920day to day what's the hardest part of your job oh um for me personally it's detaching from the my
00:48:14.360clients um and i think that's kind of where my witchcraft comes in in a way i know that um
00:48:21.880witchcraft gets a lot of um grief sometimes when when the practice is just um emphasis or focused
00:48:31.220on love and light quote unquote and i i relate to and i totally get the cries of um shallowness
00:48:42.780and superficiality from a lot of activists that um take issue with people just coming in and taking
00:48:52.980the the good and and not giving anything back um for me personally i need that love and light0.52
00:49:00.260Because I deal with the shit of humanity, humanity's most vile acts a lot of times on a day to day basis. And so I think that that's the hardest part for me detaching from from what I see my clients endure sometimes and what I what we're up against.
00:49:26.060At the same time, I think that one of my favorite parts of being an immigration lawyer in particular is being able to beat the system at its own game, so to speak.
00:49:42.160And the fact that we can and we do prevail every now and then shows me that there's work to be done for sure, but it is there and it makes me hopeful.
00:49:54.340I saw one great resource and I had spoken to a witch slash lawyer slash judge just the other day for this episode, but this came up, this just came out like today or yesterday where Thompson Reuters through Westlaw, just, I'm not sure if you've seen this yet, but they just put out like a plain language resource for, you know,
00:50:24.340police and and civil rights and because i was talking to melissa about how a lot of the language
00:50:31.160of the law is like deliberately confusing and deliberately disenfranchising and deliberately
00:50:37.000gatekeeping so i definitely think so i think that um i so for there's definitely as very
00:50:49.000you know legalese doesn't get a bad rap out of nowhere and I think that for me
00:50:53.940I'm working on a blog post about how lawyers are actually doing magic and
00:51:00.620and I'll explain that but definitely there's a disconnect between what
00:51:10.620language is used on a day-to-day basis by most people and what is considered a
00:51:16.060legal language and one of the reasons that I argue that lawyers can be which
00:51:21.800is is that there's a there's a definite special language that lawyers use and
00:51:31.020you're taught and you're trained in law school to to use the words as on behalf
00:51:39.640of your client on behalf of the cause that you're advocating the argument
00:51:43.860you're putting forth and um lawyers also are privy to quote-unquote secret knowledge where
00:51:51.940we we study for several years to learn special um this is very specific nitty-gritty loopholes and
00:52:00.900um exceptions and provisions of the law and how they affect certain people and how they
00:52:07.060will influence different outcomes and then also argument i would consider it spell work as well
00:52:15.860because when i prepare a closing statement or an argument on behalf of one of my clients
00:52:24.740i i put in a like a lot of myself into that and my sheer will to try and influence the result of
00:52:32.580of the court hearing and the decision of the judge through the use of my words.
00:52:39.060So I definitely think that that's spell work.
00:52:41.720I also consider defense work very much protection spell work.
00:52:47.020I'm just sitting here nodding and nodding and nodding and nodding because, yeah, we say all the time, words are spells.
00:52:54.140So now you've created this image, in my mind, of two adversarial lawyers, you know, both trying to come up with the more powerful spell to take the day.
00:53:04.620yeah i mean i i see it that way now and i for a really long time growing up i didn't understand
00:53:13.020until very recently how much our own disposition and our own outlook and our own sheer intent can
00:53:22.300affect how we perceive any given situation and then in turn how we react and respond to it so i
01:05:40.920Oh, this is a really tough one. And again, my disclaimer is that I don't practice in these areas. And so you're definitely going to want to get a more detailed and more experted opinion.
01:05:55.020Yeah, we'll put one more disclaimer, like you cannot give actual legal advice on a podcast, especially when the person asking the question isn't even in the room.
01:06:06.060It's not how things work. However, we can get a general idea of one person, one witch's, one lawyer's perspective.
01:06:13.380So listeners, that's what we're doing. Don't show up at town hall with Pamela's picture.
01:06:25.620i'm i'm definitely going to qualify this um answer personally i i think that um
01:06:38.780there's when you're actually trying to effect change there's nothing stronger than
01:06:47.780Showing why your position prevails or can prevail, even under the premises of the opposing party.
01:06:59.180And what I mean by that is it goes back a little bit to the trying to beat the system, beat the government at its own game.
01:07:06.580So with that in mind, I'm always of the opinion that when it comes to police encounters,
01:07:17.780You definitely want to make sure that you're not giving them any wiggle room to be able to justify the use of excessive force against you.
01:07:31.460And so that means sometimes that we're going to have to be on the ground, perhaps at a demonstration or even at a just routine encounter with police.
01:07:47.780And making calls on what we're willing to, so to speak, be infringed upon in exchange for something else. And I know that doesn't seem like a very fair or just result.
01:08:04.300But I would rather be able to have one of my colleagues, you know, one of my friends at the ACLU sue a police agency on your behalf because they wrongfully blocked your demonstration from the president seeing it, for example,
01:08:29.360than to have them sue or have something, another litigation pending because something worse
01:08:39.620happened, like they paper spray to you or they beat up the demonstrators because they
01:08:46.460So without rambling too much, you want to make sure that you are documenting everything
01:08:55.240that's happened and that you don't um give them any reason to say that it was a justified use of
01:09:05.080excessive force yes i'm i'm nodding it's a somber nod it's really um it's it's not i know that's not
01:09:19.360answer that people want to hear um but i i would rather have people here to fight another day than
01:09:27.600to to lose life or you know have people hurt um unjustly and for for very very shallow reasons um
01:09:38.720you know because the cop just thought you were giving them an attitude and um until we get
01:09:46.160actual reform where there's other um tools in the police's toolkit for addressing
01:09:58.400you know encounters with people and the and more um training into de-escalation
01:10:03.440then we're going to have to um protect ourselves that brings me to my last question before i turn
01:10:10.960the floor over to whatever you think is important to talk about today but um what are your immediate
01:10:16.160thoughts on this defund the police um idea that's starting to sort of gain traction at least in in
01:10:23.200my bubble of of the world same here and um i've had this uh discussion with with a lot of my friends
01:10:33.200And that I, it's, and while I'm not speaking at all for the movement in general, I can't do that.
01:10:46.280I, and I think maybe this is a little bit of my lawyer training that I feel that one, as a person putting out a message into the world,
01:11:01.380it's at least in a country where we have this much leeway to be able to express ourselves that
01:11:10.580we have a responsibility to make sure that our message is getting across to the people that can
01:11:19.460actually take it and make it happen but also to the the public that is going to form an opinion
01:11:30.500on it so having said that i know that um and i and i can relate to and accept that a lot of um
01:11:40.260the movement and and a lot of activists um feel very strongly about using the the phrase
01:11:47.460quote unquote defend the police but i've seen so many um examples of where it's being taken out of
01:11:54.420context and so when you actually go and research and look into what these examples look like
01:12:03.940then there's people that say oh i can get with that definitely i don't think that you know police
01:12:08.580should get um an annual rocket propelled grenade budget that's just not police civilian police
01:12:15.460should have i don't think that they need more money for um weaponry or like
01:12:24.260tanks to bring to high schools um so i i can definitely relate to that
01:12:32.020but um i think that there's something being lost in the translation of what is being called for
01:12:38.900when people say defund the police and what is actually meant the other thing that i think is
01:12:46.180um and also this is the lawyer in me i i'm very concerned about um
01:12:51.780Swift calls to action one way or the other without having a viable alternative. And so I would like to see a lot more discussion about what these new forms can look like.
01:13:05.780There's things that I have talked with some of my friends on both sides of the aisle on that they can all get behind and they include things like making
01:13:16.780the occupation or the profession of being a police officer something that's subject to a license the
01:13:22.860way that doctors and attorneys and therapists are subject to licenses so that it takes a longer
01:13:30.020time several years to obtain the degree and then the license so that you're actually subject to
01:13:35.840a disciplinary board the way that those other professions are and that they can externally be
01:13:42.680the ones to regulate and quote-unquote discipline or police the police there's
01:13:50.620there's provisions about training the police in to be able to assess
01:13:59.860situations in a light or through a lens that's less adversarial and more
01:14:08.620conducive to de-escalation and so those are things that I definitely think
01:14:18.940deserve more attention so I say that those those are my two big feelings on
01:14:27.100on the system I mean we I think we can all agree that the way it's going right
01:14:33.880now is not um it's not good it's not productive it hurts a lot of people it puts a lot of
01:14:43.740communities at risk um and so if we do have the opportunity right now to send it in a different
01:14:50.400direction we should really look at that very carefully on what we want that to look like
01:14:54.440so let's just say we only took the rocket launcher grenade budget where do you think
01:15:01.300would be the best place to put that um newly handled rocket launcher grenade money what would
01:15:07.160be the number one place that you would put it i oh that's i think it would be a split between
01:15:12.060health care and education i definitely think that um i i'm a very strong believer that education
01:15:20.900opens doors for us that otherwise wouldn't be wouldn't ever open and it um provides opportunities
01:15:29.040for so many people. It's one of the strongest forces for leveling the playing field and
01:15:40.240countering these systems that we have of oppression, like poverty and racism and misogyny and
01:15:55.480sexism and so i think that education um would definitely be one of them and then the other
01:16:01.660one would be health care because talking to some of the people that i've had this discussion with
01:16:07.720they have a point in um saying that a lot of times the police are the only ones called to
01:16:15.700all sorts of different situations mental health crises and they're about mental health crises
01:16:22.240And they're about physical health crises. And if we could actually give people the tools and the resources to live healthier lives, that can translate into other changes
01:16:43.700that I think would dramatically reduce the calls
01:17:57.800i think that we're in a at a very special point in time where
01:18:06.000because the cup runneth over so to speak um we we do have this um opportunity that i don't think
01:18:18.420people expected to be able to to reform um both in light of um the recent protests um
01:18:27.640out of outrage to to the killing of george floyd and other um black lives at the hands of police
01:18:34.580but also I think in terms of the pandemic I think that it's exposed so many things that a lot of us
01:18:42.420have been talking about for a really long time like health care and and poverty and the economy
01:18:49.380and so I would really like that the discussion that goes on in those things in those areas question
01:18:57.220um everything and um be for for everybody um i think if i could leave uh any like little
01:19:08.360knowledge of wisdom would be just question everything and know your your truth follow
01:19:13.260your little inner compass until you get to that because you're going to if you start listening
01:19:17.780to it and i ignored mine for a really long time you're going to find that it's like a little voice
01:19:24.640inside you calling and calling and calling and the more you try to ignore it the stronger it's going
01:19:28.560to get until you just you can't even though you might be afraid to own your truth you can't help
01:19:37.040but do it because it's just um it you there's no other way that you see that you can exist except
01:19:45.840to live your truth and um and i think that's that's about it so let me recap question everything
01:19:56.060follow your truth document document document yes and then of course the last one and i think this
01:20:05.720one goes without saying but please please please never talk to the cops without a lawyer ever did
01:20:11.820you hear that everybody can you repeat that for the people in the back row talk to the cops without
01:20:16.560a lawyer and that goes for any government official agency ice the IRS the police the FBI homeless
01:20:27.100security nobody just don't ever talk to the police or the government without an attorney
01:20:32.460Um, no matter how friendly they are, they have a specific job to do. And, um, you have the right to look out for yourself. So don't talk to them without an attorney.
01:20:51.400i think i can't possibly think of a better way to end this conversation don't talk to anyone
01:20:57.840without a lawyer present thank you pamela for being my lawyer present with me right now
01:21:03.120talking to me it's been wonderful i've learned a lot and i really i can't wait to
01:21:09.280get further into unraveling this this justice weave
01:21:13.680thank you thank you very much for having me um you know that i told you before we started
01:21:19.780this conversation that I don't feel like I'm equipped enough to talk about this, especially
01:21:25.700in the witch aspect, because I only came out of the broom closet last year. And so it's really
01:21:33.760flattering and empowering that you would think of me to come on the podcast. So thank you.
01:21:39.820Well, I certainly, and I say this to, you know, most of my guests really is that, you know,
01:21:45.840I see us as a web and each strand might be delicate but honestly when you put us together
01:21:52.520we're so strong so you may see yourself as a delicate witch string but I see you as a powerful
01:21:58.580witch well thank you that really means a lot would it be okay if um I have some links to like um
01:22:06.000family plans and preparation plans that um I share when I give talks on um on family preparedness
01:22:13.940in case of an ICE raid or an ICE detention in the family.