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00:02:58.380Yeah, I'm just so thrilled and in love with this book.
00:03:02.180I have been unable to read it linearly.
00:03:04.480It's my new favorite book for bibliomancy.
00:03:07.500there's so much poetic prophetic power when i said for i prophets it's a direct quote from this book
00:03:14.460that i was really struck by today there's so much beautiful word work and real deep insight into how
00:03:21.860the practices and praxis of decolonizing our thought spaces and our bodies and our world will
00:03:30.960work and so i'm just so excited to get to hang out thank you so much for being here how are you how
00:03:36.840are you feeling how are you feeling about this book being in the world so surreal i'm feeling
00:03:42.100it feels like a weird time magic and again probably because the moon is like being all
00:03:48.360kinds of void before before some big shifts happen you know in march i'm feeling excited
00:03:54.900to be here with you as well i love that you think of being on like i always say that i'm like we're
00:03:59.500on the same label like that's how i tell people you know they mean like with folks under north
00:04:04.060Atlantic. And so I feel so honored and so blessed to be welcomed into the space and to sit across
00:04:11.660y'all, like to sit across you and like the author of this brilliant work and this brilliant podcast.
00:04:18.320So thank you for having me. Can you tell me more about how this book came through you,
00:04:25.200came to you? Were there other books that were like wanting to be written? Did you feel like,
00:04:29.520do you know that feeling oh my god i mean yes it was like i say so much now in like in just doing
00:04:39.200kind of the work of being a writer but a diviner but also a curandera where i'm helping cleanse
00:04:46.780clients and spaces and homes and things that like i was like oh i get it like you need a holy spirit
00:04:52.480Like you need an extra kind of guiding force to move through you and to sustain kind of the necessary discipline of creative output that it was.
00:05:11.380I've always wanted to be a published author.
00:05:13.320I kind of, that's been like a dream come true.
00:05:16.680Here we are at the precipice of being out into the world and whatnot.
00:05:20.780And I found that tarot was this great prism or intersection or muse of sort that facilitates my writing and allows me to blend my passions and my study and my research and my advocacy for decolonization and re-indigenizing and reddening the world again.
00:05:47.580But also divination, like to add the kind of mystical, sacred, spiritual element to my other interests, of course, which can be very intellectual or heady or, you know, quote unquote, academic in a sense.
00:06:04.260And North Atlantic found me. And like, yeah, Ace, Alice Sparkly Cat, the author of Postcolonial Astrology. I always am in deference to them and their great work and to putting me on, as I like to say. And Jillian reached out and I was like, yes, I would like I was already kind of working towards towards the idea of the book.
00:06:26.520I wrote the book proposal and I was like, OK, even if I don't get the contract, if they pass, I'm going to write this regardless.
00:06:34.280And I had made that decision. And literally like the next day or that day, you know, I got the news that they wanted to publish it.
00:06:41.540And so. Yeah, I mean, so, again, it gave me kind of the traction of being able to write about all of the cards, which was quite an endeavor.
00:06:50.820but also I felt like it has given me an expanse in terms of like themes and topics and styles of
00:06:59.240voice in a sense to be able to explore that now I feel like I've I found a writer's voice I found
00:07:05.980like a particular niche in terms of like how I marry and talk about these two topics and
00:07:10.400it just helped me I feel mature as a writer as well so yeah yeah I do feel that can you tell me
00:07:19.320more I'm so curious I don't really know your there's obviously a heavy academic background
00:07:24.800in the work like there's so there's which I love to get into like a tarot book and I'm like feeling
00:07:32.180these like deep theoretical roots where is that tell me about your talk about your reading life
00:07:38.400yes oh my reading life I mean books are my friends as I will always say you know thankfully that was
00:07:47.240the aspect of my queerness that was indulged and celebrated and uplifted and so I mean I have my
00:07:55.900both of my luminaries and my midheaven in the bounds of mercury mercury the reader and the
00:08:01.600writer right and I grew up just loving to read and saw education I'm that millennial generation that
00:08:10.920they just force fed down our throats like college was the avenue to success and everything right
00:08:16.500and so so yeah i was like an ap student and took all the ap classes and was editor-in-chief for
00:08:26.480my school newspaper which was called the oracle i was just too spot on and too perfect and i only
00:08:32.940kind of realized like i think that we've come here to do when we will see those patterns when
00:08:36.780we look back and reflect but anyhow and so i and i went to cal state san bernardino i wanted to be
00:08:42.320an investigative journalist, and they did not have a journalism degree at that school. So I
00:08:47.400studied communications. And then through the kind of variety in under mass communications and public
00:08:53.620relations was exposed to bell hooks and Angela Davis and critical media theory. And at the same
00:08:59.960time became disillusioned with like the politics and the changes in in media at that time, especially
00:09:06.520in like, you know, real mainstream media and lean more into the critical aspect.
00:09:13.960And then I was a substitute teacher and a tutor and worked at a charter school for a
00:09:27.280And then I pursued my master's and my teaching credentials at UC Santa Cruz to exist within
00:09:33.460the the legacy and and lineage of Angela Davis again and Bell Hooks and others who taught and
00:09:40.620Gloria Ansel Dua and Sherry Moraga and other third world feminists and like to be there and
00:09:46.640like have that kind of spatial you know existence to to continue on in as well and you know and then1.00
00:09:54.700became disillusioned by higher education of course had to survive the institution and yet
00:09:59.720And I was very, very critical and still am of that program of higher education, while at the same time valuing and really see throughout, like, I use my education, like, you mean, and still really appreciating the rigor of research and the rigor of writing.
00:10:16.460And especially that a lot of those women, again, especially like Gloria Anzaldúa and her notions of spiritual activism that are more recently being talked about more, right, or given more focus.
00:10:26.580But that was always kind of like a central impetus for me to write, to divine and to teach and to read was like there was an aspect of spiritual reclamation that was a part of the work.
00:10:38.760And so then COVID happened, obviously, and like the pandemic happened.
00:10:44.180And I always say I had like a pre-pandemic and that was like I taught at Santa Cruz for a year.
00:10:50.600I taught some of the ninth graders and I love them.
00:11:03.480And I was like, OK, I'm going to come back to my hometown and teach my my own kind of kin and community could not get hired because I was very vocal and adamant about my politics and my queerness.
00:11:17.480And then again, the pandemic happened and I was kind of going through this big tower phase and just lean so heavily on tarot and then just started going from there and saw it as a viable means towards the livelihood.
00:11:27.620and at the same time wanting to it's been a slow process I would say of integrating kind of both
00:11:34.700of my backgrounds in terms of like critical theory with like divinatory theory if you will
00:11:40.940or quote-unquote in practice and doing so so that there you know that there's a distinction in terms
00:11:47.160of what I'm offering or what I'm seeking to do with my divining yeah I get that and it's so
00:11:54.000lovely to see smart thinkers braiding the two sort of a divinatory theory spiritual activism
00:12:03.060and you know maybe academic sort of worlds there's so much discomfort there for so many people be
00:12:10.540like i don't want to be too woo and you know where we i'm always the person that's like your
00:12:15.320is safe with me it's fine it's fine you're welcome yeah you're okay here but it is a tricky
00:12:22.540space, middle space to walk in. You write about how there's a phrase I love that tarot
00:12:28.940makes us, I'm going to butcher it if I don't look at it, alters our engagement with materiality.
00:12:35.300Can you talk about tarot as a decolonial practice? How do you see that set of images,
00:12:44.340set of cards as a tool that can make sense from a perspective of indigeneity? How does
00:12:52.000it connect with that world view how does it open things up oh my gosh I think that I mean you wrote
00:13:00.040like a 400 page book about it so I it's a big question I'm like well and that's also part of
00:13:08.720the reason of like why I love writing because it is to use the the kind of label metaphor again
00:13:13.980it's like putting like laying it down like you know I mean like a certain articulation a certain
00:13:18.220expression and as much as i there's we can edit endlessly and like desire to at sometimes but i'm
00:13:25.120like okay like this is where it's at now but in order to give that that notion what you're talking
00:13:30.680about about the intersection or how they can even be in conversation um indigeneity decolonization
00:13:36.780with tarot which is a western object a western tool right and do so with respect to both of the
00:13:43.280practices but especially indigenous thinkers and using the text as itself as a way and tarot
00:13:50.100as a matter for me to fully reclaim my own indigeneity with confidence because I am I grew
00:13:56.640up I mean I also I grew up in San Bernardino which is I always say like like from Donny Hathaway
00:14:02.060little ghetto boy you know it's like growing up in the ghetto and then at the same time on and off0.70
00:14:09.340the serrano samuel band of mission indians like tribal territory and having family and access
00:14:16.080there but not formally recognized as part of the tribe and yet acknowledging my own indigenous0.64
00:14:21.020ancestry but the way that gets all fucked up through colonialism like my name christopher i
00:14:25.840mean one is like colonizer name 101 and then marmolejo is a city in spain that goes back to0.80
00:14:32.900like marble makers and whatnot and so it's like literally within my name is the history of
00:14:37.340colonialism, right? And so I grew up culturally Catholic. I mean, a lot of Catholics, a lot of
00:14:43.820Latino Catholics are like afraid of the tarot as like the devil's object and all these things,1.00
00:14:48.460of course. And so I just, one, it found its way to me. I found a lot of spaciousness in the image1.00
00:14:55.480to, as Paolo Fiere does, like to use the image as a catalyst to see the mechanisms of the world,
00:15:04.100Like to see a history of a Western kind of imperialism or a Western mode of kings and queens and popes and, you know, a castle and like all these kinds of orders as a matter to situate how they have been embedded within our world.
00:15:21.200and then then use that as a means to critique right use it as a means to open up use that as
00:15:26.320a reflection of like where we are where those colonized mechanisms exist within ourselves and
00:15:32.440then how to do as jose esteban muñoz does like to disidentify right and i see like the work is
00:15:39.880i had i taught a class on jupiter recently and like a student in state after and was just asking
00:15:46.240about like how do we go forward when they're just asking questions right like like how is this
00:15:50.600sustainable like this liberatory work and i mean i think a part of it is being recyclers like of
00:15:55.700just understanding the wreckages of history and like using the image in the imaginal using what
00:16:02.280we extend on and having to make something with it rather than like just blindly negating a colonial
00:16:11.860past or an indigenous past or something and just like only putting forth like this purest vision
00:16:17.940of what a quote-unquote native or Indian is
00:16:20.920or what those practices or tools look like,
00:16:45.120with an exploration of pixie and then of course at the same time like so many decks by so many
00:16:51.840artists give a variation in a specificity to the moment that indigenous artists are making tarot0.53
00:16:58.360decks like black people are making tarot decks queer people are making tarot decks and so again
00:17:04.240there's sort of that using a framework or using the history of the cards as a means of like
00:17:09.460acknowledging and recognizing our own place within the history of colonialism and trade and commerce
00:17:15.700and the hybridity and mixing between practices and like using tarot feels very spacious to me
00:17:23.000it has always felt very spacious and then i think as well like there i still go to the
00:17:29.820to the ability to like read the image critically and respond to that image specifically and
00:17:36.800critically. And that brings up issues of representation, right, that are very fraught
00:17:41.120with indigeneity in terms of wanting to be recognized by a colonial power, wanting that0.70
00:17:46.180validation, wanting to fit into the mainstream, wanting to get the big award, the Grammy, etc.0.68
00:17:52.640Right. And instead, how do we use these cards with a lot of my clients are women, are queers,1.00
00:18:01.620like are brown women and they come at times of crossroads they come in times where they need a0.99
00:18:07.780clarity and they're sort of like at their wits end and what can the tarot offer them in a meaningful
00:18:15.460way and manner that is already rebellious like they're already transgressive and do so in a way
00:18:20.100that has heft and again acknowledges my teachers and the works of theorists like not obviously not
00:18:25.600all of them like this is not an end all be all you know i did i did my best and i at the same
00:18:30.860time I like to go deep with particular teachers it's the balance between depth and breadth of
00:18:36.180course yeah I don't know sorry if I was going on tangents there but there was like seven things in
00:18:42.260there that I thought were so juicy like I wanted to think about and dig into more I think especially
00:18:48.820you know one like I hadn't really thought about this until you said it but that one thing that
00:18:55.700the tarot teaches you implicitly is about the structures in our world right that that hierarchy
00:19:02.900is is there it's super present and there and it also is teaching about how slipping through those
00:19:08.340things and about how there's a circle and about how things fall and i thought also the idea of
00:19:14.080is it did i understand you correctly thinking about it as almost like a prosthesis as a as a
00:19:18.600prosthetic as like something that connects yeah that's dope no question just don't
00:19:24.380no that's a really really interesting idea i mean yeah i because again i'm like a de-tribalized
00:19:33.860urban trans native right and there's a lot of and so you know and i in temperance in particular in
00:19:41.060the temperance section of the book i talk about these notions of purity and blood quantum yeah0.91
00:19:45.920In which it's it's an internalized colonial mechanism of measuring like if you're real or not, basically right in their means of indigenous people eradicating themselves.
00:19:55.840And of course, it's complicated. It's a big issue. Don't get me wrong. There's a management of like necessary preservation of culture and of community and intentionality.
00:20:04.240And yet at the same time, again, that blood quantum mechanism is is but the other side of the coin of like one drop right for for black Americans.0.70
00:20:14.020right in this means of like either you're you don't have enough of a blood quantum to be0.56
00:20:18.080considered like a part of it or you or you have just that one three-fifths of a human kind of
00:20:23.100thing right and you're and you get excluded so they're both means of inclusion and exclusion
00:20:27.720that are a colonial technology and so now where we're at in history like there's so many0.99
00:20:34.620queers and natives who need that type of prosthetic in order to repair these relationships0.98
00:20:42.280because they don't they're not living on tribal territory formally or they don't have that0.62
00:20:47.160recognition or they've been abandoned or they are alone and so for me the tarot is highly accessible
00:20:53.360it's like very in vogue and popular and I think it will continue to be and has been and so I wanted
00:20:58.380to offer this book is like a guidebook of sorts if you can say that I mean there's a lot of things I
00:21:04.020want the book to be but for that use or for acknowledgement of those particular places and
00:21:10.160still in deference to indigenous keepers and again like decolonizing like you know i i think i i try0.69
00:21:18.520to go there with the book you know i was like all all the shit by the police has to get set on fire0.96
00:21:23.880like the if we're talking about the tower it's like prison rebellion and it's like burning the0.96
00:21:28.240shit down like how committed to you of art to you know to the project so yeah at the same time you0.64
00:21:33.740were just saying and i thought this was interesting too you're talking about you know building with0.96
00:21:39.120what we have you know when you're talking about using the cards like uh you know like it that we
00:21:44.820can't have this pure ideal of everything all burnt down we're gonna have to and i that's something i
00:21:51.100struggle with certainly like there's there's people in our sort of like activist spiritual
00:21:55.960activist kind of communities that come to a language of burn it all down and in some cases
00:22:00.660probably appropriate but i i'm i'm like a little bit maybe conservationist in that you know like i0.98
00:22:07.680just feel like our resources are fucking limited like we can't do a lot of burning shit down
00:22:12.740you know like i mean especially keep everything somehow i don't know that's i mean you know0.97
00:22:21.320that's there's a lot that i understand i mean tell me i'm wrong this is just an i mean i i think it's
00:22:29.640a real question and conversation in particular in terms of like that there's a question of
00:22:34.360inclusion again and like as a young teacher my white students I felt like really held me
00:22:41.240accountable in terms of like how I was teaching to them and how I was holding them accountable
00:22:46.320to their own already like middle school age I mean it starts very young in terms of the
00:22:52.320internalized racism and hatred and like all the isms right but that they were welcome there and0.79
00:22:58.060that at the same time like that they had to understand their they were raced of that they
00:23:02.440are raced of course and that they are patriarchs are assaulted by patriarchy just the same right
00:23:09.940in it well not just the same but in a different manner but they are they they have a means of
00:23:15.720solidarity when they can name and acknowledge the sources of oppression that should engender
00:23:20.640you know a mode to be in solidarity and so that that can be very challenging when0.99
00:23:27.340you know when they are the active like affronters of the shit being burnt down in the first place0.89
00:23:35.060or the things being lost or you know the the epistemic side the genocides like all these0.80
00:23:40.300things it's like okay yeah i mean i think that there they are certainly though that is a that
00:23:47.080is a at a heart of a conversation in terms of like the question of violence right like it's
00:23:51.340just like such a big i don't want to go like straight to there but like there's you know
00:23:54.920that's a big, that's a big, big, big part that we all have to kind of reconcile in terms of
00:24:01.400how we respond to violence, the place of violence in our lives, the violence that already, that has
00:24:07.680already been enacted towards us, but also, you know, that the oppressed have a right to, to
00:24:13.500rebel. And those may be by violent means. And I think that's where there's a difference between
00:24:19.760like the liberalism of Santa Cruz in particular, which was like very, very on the brochure.
00:24:27.380Here is our people of color. Here is the syllabus with all the black feminist thinkers. But then
00:24:32.680here's all the white students who are going to be teachers to go teach in the hood and like all0.69
00:24:37.740these things. And like, you know, it's like the the contradiction between theory and practice0.50
00:24:43.140there. Right. And so, yeah, I don't have an answer for it, even in my own heart. You know,
00:24:49.120I mean, I, I, I rage at violence and feel like I would like to throw my body with the oppressed and always have. But at the same time, I get uncomfortable sometimes with language of burn it all down when I think what, you know, talking about university, for example, or, you know, that the, that the academy is so sick that the only way to deal with it or.
00:25:16.380I don't know. I like to imagine that there are ways of opening up and decolonizing our existing
00:25:24.540systems, open sourcing our systems or something in ways that are ethical. But I don't know what
00:25:29.880that is. I don't expect you to have an answer, although you're my prophet on the screen today.
00:25:36.780I definitely, I mean, I'm such a person, like a gentle soul. I mean, I've been vegan for like
00:25:42.48010 years, you know, and that's something I don't necessarily talk about, like, and that's from
00:25:46.040an uncomfortability to just consume any type of violence at all, like, completely, I think that
00:25:53.040peacemaking and healing and restoring and recognizing, it's a matter of, like, again,
00:26:00.880that question is going to be something that we all at some point will have to encounter and deal
00:26:04.840with. And so, like, in the tower section, I just had to sit with, I had to sit with that a lot.
00:26:10.340And yeah, I think I feel the same. And I mean, in a lot of ways, this book is, as I like to say, is like my personal PhD. And in that, the realization of my kind of educational thesis of sorts about liberatory literacy, about indigeneity, about personal authorship, how to do so outside of the academy, you know, and there's been real cost to that in some sense.
00:26:38.460it's been a journey to establish a sense of authority and credibility of course and at the0.94
00:26:45.640same time like embracing being freaky and and queer and like wild and like foolish you know0.93
00:26:53.740what i mean like all the things like so like that being as i always say failure for you0.95
00:26:58.380you know what i mean yeah so so i hear you i do feel like you you've written your your personal
00:27:04.540PhD it's a it's a PhD size not size depth project it's beautiful it's really great I hope you feel
00:27:13.720really really proud of it I hope that when you have the distance that you look at what you did
00:27:18.900and and feel all the depth that's in there it's I think North Atlantic I feel I can't feel this
00:27:25.220about my own work but I know that they aim to do this and I see it in other people's work
00:27:29.840they publish work that they believe will live for a long time and make an impact for a long time
00:27:34.580and I really feel that in your book so thank you for saying that yeah it's a bit hard to have that
00:27:40.280perspective right now I mean I have hope but it's still like it's still kind of nerve-wracking for
00:27:46.960me to share something with the world at this scale this degree you know I'm such a private person
00:27:51.840and it's such a weird journey like it kind of feels like it comes out and you do all this stuff
00:27:56.000and then it sort of feels like it disappears like that part is so strange too but then it
00:28:01.120keeps weaving its way back in to your life can you talk it's such a weird segue i'm so sorry
00:28:10.200can you talk about your relationship with the divine of course that's a beautiful segue i mean
00:28:15.080oh yes i mean i was oh my gosh my relation i've always had one i would say i mean my mom taught
00:28:24.900me to pray before, like say my prayers before bed. And I didn't grow up in a very strict
00:28:32.220religious, like dogmatic home. I had a lot of spaciousness and I had a lot of books by
00:28:38.160me. And so I would just have like in Muscoi, in Sardino, which is, it's like a lot of
00:28:44.100dirt land, but there's a lot of horses and a lot of just like, there was like a lot of
00:28:47.360open fields and things and and i think that's my time in nature allowed me for like communion like
00:28:55.460i remember being a kid and like channeling the winds just organically and naturally my first
00:29:01.120year teaching i was having my jupiter return and i had had tarot come to me before like literally
00:29:06.120like people giving me readings like in a very kind of auspicious unplanned moment like it was not
00:29:12.020like a booked thing it was very like oh we're bringing out this as a gift you know to like
00:29:16.660receive. And then brands would gift me decks. And I'm like, okay, I guess I kept wanting to be in
00:29:22.280my hands. And again, during my first year teaching with my Jupiter return, but I also then began my
00:29:30.140personal study with tarot. And I would say that tarot has been a great prism for me to relate to
00:29:36.320a multi-motive deities in a sense. But I'm such a priestess. I like to say a prophetess and
00:29:42.940authoress like I have a really rich prayer practice I feel that is a part of doing this
00:29:51.720work was also to just fully be in the lifestyle of being a witch or being in relationship and
00:29:58.140communion with the divine and that's why I love divination is because even if it's quote-unquote
00:30:02.880like a mundane thing that I'm divining about or like I do my daily pull just in a devoted manner
00:30:08.360every morning. And sometimes the cards will be about something I'm reading or watching or will
00:30:13.380witness or an idea that I'm thinking about. It's not necessarily like the day I got the book deal
00:30:17.800or like the day my heart was broken or like whatever, you know what I mean? Are all these
00:30:21.720like my parents divorcing or something like, and I, and I love it for that because there's a matter
00:30:26.660of like the real relationship is there. I will say I'm a devotee of the Black Madonna, but I do
00:30:34.480work with a myriad of deities from various cultures but like a big part of it goes towards
00:30:40.840and goes back towards like ma towards the black madonna towards an emanation or various emanations
00:30:46.960manifestations of the mother and and yeah and i mean i love like gospel music it was only gospel
00:30:53.760music all day today i love when i hear spirit you know what i mean like when i really hear it and it
00:30:58.540resonates i'm like we're we're cool like you know what i mean like i can work with it it's it's been
00:31:03.360everything to sustain me I would say like it's been there's being brought to your knees you know
00:31:09.120what I mean in the sense of when you feel that you need to rely upon like I said a holy spirit or
00:31:13.500like some higher power in order to continue on this book required so much prayer after just so
00:31:19.860much I'm sure you know right like so much self-doubt and so much critique and at the same
00:31:24.060time I feel like an active alchemy in terms of reconstituting my own being through my divine
00:31:29.280relationships and being reoriented towards a sacred mode of living and that divine perspective
00:31:38.160bowing my ego and my anger and my hopes my dreams and my fears and all that to a divine perspective
00:31:46.540that has it all handled or accounted for or has some understanding that our limited human
00:31:52.760mind cannot comprehend and that I look forward to rejoining in a sense of totality at some point
00:31:59.300once I do die. Like I really look forward to death, you know, not to be so Scorpio about it.
00:32:05.020That's like so lovely for me to hear right now and in general. We have a lot of people who come
00:32:13.060to our community from a place of religious trauma. That's the world, the state of the world. It makes0.98
00:32:22.180so much sense. Can you offer some insight from the perspective of decolonial tarot? Maybe there's
00:32:31.240one of the cards that makes sense that you write about. I found a lot of comfort in your Hanged Man
00:32:37.700chapter today, but I don't know. Does that question make sense to you?
00:32:42.700Absolutely. I mean, I think, yeah, for me, the higher font comes to mind in terms of like
00:32:46.980religious trauma right I take a polytheistic mode and I definitely try not to be a colonizer
00:32:57.620in terms of my interests and like a sense of appropriation with some of these relationships
00:33:01.580or spiritual practices like I try and let them find me and like choose me and like come to me
00:33:05.700repeatedly and then begin that relationship respectfully and again in the dark in secret
00:33:10.940and like really really fortify it and really be in deference to that cultural spinal say and then
00:33:16.300speak about Mesoamerican cultures, of course, but also because I grew up culturally Catholic,
00:33:21.660like being able to talk about with critique and with a sense of like detangling some Bible verse
00:33:28.440or some gospel sense that like I can parse out the myth or the story or the application that is
00:33:34.600beyond, right? And I think that the Hierophant, again, being the Pope, right, in its traditional
00:33:42.280iteration, right? A masculine pope, not the high priestess, right? As the counterpart has caused
00:33:50.080so much trauma. I mean, the spiritual quote-unquote father, well, it shouldn't be the
00:33:54.520father. You know what I mean? They should be spiritual mother and father for those who are
00:33:58.000kicked out, for those who are exiled, for those who have no home. That's the highest goal. Of
00:34:04.600course, they get hung up on sexual fetish. They get hung up on hyper-commercialization, such as
00:34:11.800with evangelical Christianity and the Joel Osteens of the world, or they become positive
00:34:18.160thinking above all else, and you will, you know, manifest your dream car again, and it goes back
00:34:22.360to commerce. I think that on one level, the healing with a hierophant that I have is in the
00:34:27.520discipline and in the rigor. And in the sense that like to walk a spiritual path is not something
00:34:31.840that you do for like a fad, or because it was just like a cool moment, or I don't know, it's
00:34:37.500like some it's like a way of life you know these these the powers of prophecy of foresight of magic
00:34:45.000that come along with spiritual relationships have a responsibility attached to them to help liberate
00:34:50.960others to help heal others these powers are bestowed upon you in service towards someone
00:34:56.060else's liberation and healing as well as your own manifestation of your fullest potential
00:35:00.400they are and this is where like for me in the reading you know there's a duty to to like name
00:35:09.760all that i'm seeing i'll offer my human opinion and perspective as well but i don't withhold some
00:35:15.640sense of like like my spirit is compelling me to like say this to this person right or like you
00:35:21.100need to know this like there's like an ethic to to relaying that information clearly because
00:35:26.060otherwise i think that those gifts would be denied right as well a hierophant is is one who
00:35:32.760has that that training the hierophant is is as opposed to the priestess who is who's a witch in
00:35:37.680the woods who's probably veiling herself and you know she's not trying to have maybe a whole group
00:35:43.220of like followers that know her name and her number and all these things the hierophant is
00:35:47.860the one who the lay people can name and call when they need someone to pray over their recently
00:35:52.860passed, is the one who can bless the child, is the one who can help be doula, you know, in a large
00:35:58.540way. The one for the for the people in that sense, that's more public who is translating the word,
00:36:05.560which is Friarian, which is Belhuxian, you know what I mean? Which is the sense of like bringing
00:36:11.880a criticality to the text of spirit, the messages of spirit that we're receiving and saying back,
00:36:18.640the one who knows the prayers you know you know it's like to learn these systems of any spiritual
00:36:24.860system and to not be appropriators is to go to the authorities within that lineage the hierophon is
00:36:30.440an ancestral practice of naming it's a citational practice it's like and my teacher was and then my
00:36:36.760teacher was and then my teacher was and so you're you're the prayers and uttered from those teachers
00:36:42.840are not only spoken by you in that moment they're reverberating and garnering and adding to the
00:36:48.540luster of like every moment that prayer has been said you know and so i think that you know
00:36:55.020there is that sense of record keeping of the discipline that the higher font is committed to
00:37:01.360and i can also understand the true religious drama of course and through people's like this
00:37:08.880disembodied quality that makes the ritual or like the like especially catholic church oh my god it0.90
00:37:15.780always so boring like that was just always the worst you know versus for me like the black church0.91
00:37:20.980like the black gospel music like i can that that moves me like i understand the word and there's a
00:37:26.640sense of um of of delivery of voice i i have venus and jupiter jupiter is a planet of spirituality
00:37:34.940of liberation venus is like the temple keeper i have them conjoined in scorpio on my chart and so
00:37:40.520there's a level of like when i deliver a reading there's a delivery of voice it is a type of being
00:37:47.460on stage there is a summoning of a spirit there's like a way that the words need to be
00:37:51.700expressed to evoke to the person and so i can understand that the hierophant doesn't necessarily
00:37:57.120always offer that to the people and that's where you may need a different hierophant you know you
00:38:02.840may need to go to the peoples whose words or to the traditions whose words like really unlock
00:38:09.100something for you than like trying to force it you know like trying to hit it off note or something
00:38:14.020and then for folks who are still like working through a syncretic relationship with the church
00:38:23.300of their family of their community trying to navigate a way to keep I guess this kind of
00:38:29.460goes back to what we were talking about like keeping how can I keep sometimes people just
00:38:34.200like there there's no way I'm going to lose all of my family all of my community I need to keep
00:38:40.120this religion I need to find a way to bring this with me even though I reject what is oppressive
00:38:49.140and evil and violent and debasing and dehumanizing and cruel and aligned with colonialism like
00:38:55.660I have to I don't know how I just know that I have to I understand that that impulse for
00:39:03.220that sense of continuity again that sense of belonging that the hierophant offers not just
00:39:09.420within family and culture but like as a people a history of a people and i think that's where
00:39:16.780the critical reading and like the the self-authority like more of the high priestess
00:39:22.700thing on that sense where you can read and interpret the word for your own like it's like0.68
00:39:26.980yes high priestess is the radical one who is a literate woman you know i mean she's the head0.98
00:39:31.260of the church like herself. She is the black Madonna. She doesn't need a man to interpret1.00
00:39:35.660this word to her. She can understand the spells and the scriptures and all these things,
00:39:41.560critique them necessarily. Critique is a form of love and hold hopefully those people like hold
00:39:47.860the community accountable. I can understand that's tremendous for people to work against
00:39:54.240conditioned colonial gendered racist thinking, especially as religion becomes used to oppress
00:40:01.820people as there's obviously so much history of that. And so I think that the first part is within
00:40:06.680the self, feeling that sense of self-acceptance from the religion or from the spiritual practice
00:40:13.680that people exist within, and then extending that outward within the intimate relationships
00:40:17.760and within the communities and family, because that is the obligation of doing this work. It's
00:40:21.620not to exist as an atomic individual, right? So I think a bit more of the high priestess kind of
00:40:27.120medicine would come in in that regard, more queen of swords, again, more bell hooks, like bell hooks0.96
00:40:32.600was a Buddhist and queer and, you know, and a Christian, of course, you know, and her and
00:40:39.920Cornel West talk about the black prophetic tradition and precious memories. And she was
00:40:45.020a Gemini rising and like the first decan of Gemini, the first 10 degrees of that sign are
00:40:50.820synchronized to the eight of swords. The eight of swords traditionally are in most decks you will
00:40:56.200see is a woman who is bound, a woman in red who is bound up in rope. And that to me is one of the
00:41:01.960most violent images in the whole deck. And so that speaks to gender. By naming the systems of power,0.92
00:41:08.480which demarcate and structure religion or any spiritual practice, it allows us to have a grip
00:41:15.020on it and allows us to have distance where we can historicize it and make that distinction between
00:41:20.240spirit or our faith or our sense of belonging, our sense of our purity, or I mean, to get like
00:41:26.880that sense of innocence within the heart, that aspect of reclaiming and holding on to that like
00:41:31.620true self that is like, like, I know there's goodness in my heart. I know that there's a
00:41:36.500desire for love and for healing in my heart. And then, oh, that's the sexism. Okay, we can then
00:41:41.860critique that, you know what I mean? And like, Balox is always saying, like, I don't serve a
00:41:46.400punishing God. My God is a loving God, you know, and that's radical. Yeah, that is the core of what
00:41:53.780I believe. I mean, I'm not religious, really, except that I've, you know, also spent since
00:42:00.180childhood time summoning the winds. But I do feel like a kinship with anyone who believes in a loving
00:42:08.360God, you know, anybody who believes children are sacred, you know, so I can get behind whatever
00:42:13.540your faith is as long as we sort of have a shared standard you know right right as long as like i
00:42:19.720can be queer you're not gonna damn me for my sexuality you're gonna allow me to talk back
00:42:26.640and question but like i'm the most i'm i'm devout as hell like right isn't that the point of the0.53
00:42:32.140idea of divinity is that it's all inclusive isn't that isn't that why do you have one why do you
00:42:39.820have an idea of divinity if you don't think we're all part of it with all our our weird bits you
00:42:46.000know i don't yeah yeah yeah can i ask you a formatting question a structural question about
00:42:53.200the book and this will maybe reveal my my ignorance but tell me about the decision to not
00:43:01.160separate out major arcana and the one through ten but to embed them in the count i love that i love
00:43:08.600this question i also love like the meta like i love a meta question about like the work itself
00:43:12.320and so i mean that is that's there there are plenty of books who are who follow it that way
00:43:17.060it's like a both end there's a little bit of contradiction here but like one and the maybe
00:43:20.980first answer i'll say is that that's not how you read tarot like when you do a reading you're not
00:43:26.480like getting like typically like sequential cards you know i mean like your reading is a hodgepodge
00:43:30.560you're gonna get major economy you're gonna get minor economy you're gonna get court cards
00:43:33.700so I wanted the reading to more accurately reflect the actual manner in which we read tarot
00:43:39.060and then at the same time underlying a numeric organization right and like finding that there
00:43:47.240was I know that Mary Kay Greer I believe does her her teacher cards and I've taught that and
00:43:54.220I've worked with that but for me I also just found like scales as I was like more music or
00:44:00.340there was an aspect of the minor, like the group of the fives having some sort of bridge
00:44:05.200between the five Arcanum of the Hierophant and then 15 of the devil. There is something
00:44:10.820to uncover there, using it as a mode to uncover new connections and to like see them. And that
00:44:17.740was also helpful for me and also was a challenge. I kind of opened each section with what this
00:44:21.720number means, a mini numerology of sorts, but from a critical perspective. In a foundational
00:44:26.440tarot course that I have, I teach in that manner as well. Can you give me an example or talk more
00:44:31.520about the example of the fives where maybe in the writing process or just seeing them together,
00:44:36.560you're like, oh, actually, there's this other. Yeah. I mean, for me, the hierophant, which is,
00:44:42.160again, just the authoritative spiritual leader. Yes, we can shorthand say the pope of the people,
00:44:46.740but it's the shaman, it's the root worker, the curandera against the devil. Like, do you know
00:44:51.220what I mean? Like those two are clearly in conversation with each other, right? For there
00:44:54.180to be the one who blesses there's the one who curses right and then when we look at the fives
00:44:58.840traditionally they are cards of suffering you know they're cards of challenges they're cards
00:45:03.720of being bereaved being damned being the walking dead as i say like they are the conflict points
00:45:09.620they are a crescendo of action in a sense but for me they're like a pit you know they're a type of0.96
00:45:15.040a pit they're really like a divot and so you need like their initiations for that hierophant
00:45:20.500from that wounded space like they're often wounds around placehood with the pentacles there's so
00:45:27.280much grief with the cups of course the five of swords is is the act of exile it is such a rich
00:45:36.360card about colonial conquest and like conquering of native lands and places and dead naming folks
00:45:41.980and then the five of wands is oh my gosh the five of wands you know is about this strife over
00:45:49.920territory and community and again like purity of identity in these things and so for me the
00:45:58.180hierophant is like where we're dealing with these real historic social wounds and violence
00:46:06.200that a spiritual response is called upon and a spiritual response is needed and can help um to
00:46:12.480to mend right and then the devil is like kind of maybe the the the weight or the gravity that
00:46:19.520pulls us into those dark places the history right that like once you you start lifting the veil0.99
00:46:24.700enough you're gonna be like oh shit there's some fucked up shit in this lineage or there's some0.99
00:46:29.940really scary things here that like all these layers we stand upon now and so so so then where0.99
00:46:39.000does like then where is my faith you know i mean then where is my sense of spirituality
00:46:43.040i just i really love this book can you okay i like to ask and especially in this case
00:46:54.240can you offer a practice and maybe it's a tarot practice maybe it's just a daily i don't know
00:47:02.700something for our listeners who want to engage in this work of decolonization of the self of the
00:47:10.420mind seeing seeing the ways in which we are held you know or maybe it's a different practice
00:47:17.400altogether something that works for you i mean i oh my gosh obviously the first tarot you know
00:47:24.760i'm sure all your listeners have tarot cards and tarot and read tarot and come with all kinds of
00:47:30.120a range people come with all kinds of a range because we amy and i are like perpetual baby
00:47:34.760witches. We're a safe space for people who are really just cracking open their first book for
00:47:40.880sure. Awesome. I mean, I do think that, well, I will say just reading tarot is transgressive. I
00:47:48.880mean, it can be popular or whatnot, but there's a sense of like, no matter if it's in your own
00:47:53.320private space, I'd recommend having a tarot practice, like a daily pull. I would really
00:47:58.160recommend in order to become intimate with the deck to become intimate with its stories and its
00:48:05.160imagery and its language and then multiple decks like when you're ready for that that helps to
00:48:11.200attune that divine dialogue and there will be confrontation that will happen there there may
00:48:17.600be disappointment with like i thought this was gonna happen or like my card said this and like
00:48:21.920then where was it and like whatnot you know and then at the same time if you are reading for others
00:48:26.800i always say like a tarot reading queer is time you know tarot reading queer is a place it kind
00:48:34.080of reclaims the place and space that it's being done in and so even if you're not fully cognizant
00:48:39.920of like that's what you're doing like that's what you're doing like you know what i mean
00:48:43.240and people people may pay attention so that's something to be mindful of but i think that
00:48:48.160there's a transgression that i would welcome and encourage and listeners to tarot read and
00:48:55.560recognize that this can thereby destabilize people's fixed presumptions and perspectives
00:49:01.320about their daily commute or like their just daily flow of routine of the day like the mundane
00:49:08.840and have some space open up where what is what's happening over there like what are their cards
00:49:14.900saying like you know what is what is that deck like what is that image i would on top of that
00:49:20.720to go beyond the guidebook that the deck comes with.
00:49:24.480And of course, you know, please order my book.
00:49:26.700But like I'd recommend, and this is part of how I wrote the book,
00:49:30.760was to find the interpretation of the image from a liberatory text,
00:49:37.460you know, from a text that really sits with and meditates on liberation
00:49:42.060and white supremacist, capitalist, imperialist patriarchy and the myriad of ways.
00:49:46.760Did you have other books you could look to for that kind of interpretation?
00:49:50.720are there other tarot books that you could look to that do this because i know that's not really
00:49:56.220what you meant when you said it you meant like like go to bell hooks go to the other writers
00:50:01.140but is there anyone else who has written like did you were you able to study tarot from that
00:50:06.700perspective no no i didn't think so no no it was you know it's i had to write it that's why i had
00:50:15.820to write it I feel you know I that's why I wanted to write it and that's where it was like so much
00:50:21.020pressure I put on myself to it's to hopefully deliver a beautifully written work and like a
00:50:28.480well-researched work and like that it actually it was like a real pairing um in a in a meaningful
00:50:36.020manner and not just like a superficial like boom here I'm gonna put this like black feminist quote
00:50:40.340you know here is like in a liberal kind of sense i know that there are new books coming out though
00:50:46.640like that like a class i would say of books that i am very excited about but as i was writing it
00:50:51.560as i was researching it i was was doing it definitely no and definitely not from the
00:50:56.380specificity of indigeneity and decolonization whether it may be works and books focused on
00:51:02.600queerness or liberation or like something of that sort like like making it red in particular
00:51:08.520that's a specific political stance that i think that is at the root for me you know and that is
00:51:15.960like very necessary and just like there's of course intersection black queer but there's
00:51:19.980tension between those relations as well a queer publicly is written by maybe a white woman you
00:51:24.420know what i mean and then like of course intersexual work may be written by a black
00:51:28.160woman or something of the sort but where is the native voice in this where is the native relation
00:51:33.240between these figures and so i wanted to offer offer that it's so rad okay there's this piece
00:51:40.940i'm gonna read a piece of your book at you are you ready yeah also it's like i don't even have
00:51:46.940my author copies yet so like just oh my gosh my baby like she has a life of her own that's what
00:51:53.020i mean that's like oh my god she's in my house she's so beautiful she's with us now yes
00:52:00.300um yeah I felt like I I kept turning to this book you know over the past few days since I
00:52:10.560was lucky enough to receive it I wasn't in a place to read in a straight line
00:52:15.320and it felt like that was okay and I came to it this section in particular feeling like really
00:52:24.160unwell and then also feeling like I didn't know about the next book and like what how it works
00:52:34.560and what it needs to be and should it even and and in our community we we sort of stumbled on
00:52:41.800this phrase and Amy and I say it a lot to each other and now it's become like phrasey so it
00:52:47.420sounds like a catchphrase and it wasn't like that initially but you know that the the greatest spell
00:52:52.200that we can cast is to tell the truth that we have to just keep finding ways to tell our own
00:52:58.180truth about where we are in systems of power how we've been hurt in ancestry and in our own lives0.97
00:53:05.880in relation to harm caused and harm enacted upon us tell the fucking truth we have to0.87
00:53:12.020just keep on schooling that and then i open to this page we offer all severed selves to be0.94
00:53:19.780reconciled when we decide to stop lying. Pretending in order to pacify oppressors does not make us
00:53:27.660any safer. Rather, the harm may be even more difficult to recognize when it's not visible
00:53:32.760upon the body. Once we stop the pretense, we step into the hanged one. When we refuse to debase the
00:53:41.100body we give birth to our spirit. This becomes the denial that sets us free. This is our no
00:53:49.220that affirms our communion. It is an active denial, a letting go of everything we've been
00:53:55.200dependent upon, enslaved by. Love's all-encompassing liberty snaps the rope of our suspension.
00:54:04.080Poet and political leader Jose de Diego reminds us that the no of the oppressed has been the word,
00:54:11.100the genesis of the liberation of peoples.
00:54:15.140Loss becomes sacrifice through this reclaiming.
00:54:19.040Like Nana Watson, we sacrifice the body to make it sacred.
00:54:23.840Sacrifice works upon the wounds of the objectified,
00:54:44.380Sacrifice is possible in recognizing all we have to gain
00:54:47.400once we let go of everything that isn't true.
00:54:51.480Sacrifice surrenders every space to the divine.
00:54:54.940When the only witness we need is that of divine witness,
00:54:58.340we become certain we will be born again.
00:55:00.640I want to thank you, especially this week, especially today.
00:55:06.300Listeners, you'll hear this later, but, you know,
00:55:08.580we watched a young man burn himself alive screaming for the liberation of an oppressed
00:55:15.000people that he could not be complicit in any longer and i hope that he was welcomed in all
00:55:24.680the arms of the divine and i hope his act radiates for peace and i just thank you so much for writing
00:55:31.780that. Thank you. Thank you for this time and for your work and for your authenticity and
00:55:42.640engagement. It's chilling in a good way to have this work touch you. I was reading,
00:55:51.060as I did the audiobook version, everything in Palestine was like outbreaking and actively0.68
00:55:57.120being inflamed i felt affirmed in in the work because i think a large part of
00:56:04.600being objectified and being dismissed is that dismissal of yourself just continuously and
00:56:11.260yeah i just it's it's so much so i hope i i hope that you do continue to write i noticed these
00:56:22.080books were very fast right in terms of like your own output like right like they came back to back
00:56:27.560pretty much yeah and so that's amazing that's an amazing feat that is an amazing feat we trick
00:56:34.240ourselves because we write podcast episodes all in between so then we have a lot of essays that
00:56:39.360are written so that's how you that's working smarter not you know it's like how you should
00:56:45.920Absolutely. I believe that it's important to record our stories and to be storytellers and archivists of the people who sacrificed themselves, who set themselves on fire to free us all. So thank you for sharing the space with me.
00:57:02.900thank you thank you for being here and oh folks please go order red tarot a decolonial guide to
00:57:11.420divinatory literacy i you know you don't gotta order all the books we talk about in this freaking
00:57:18.260pocket that's because you'll go poor but you do need to get this and request it at your library
00:57:23.360you know order it from an indie bookseller get it on amazon get your hands on it get it get it
00:57:31.800into your paws and use it for your work it's really beautiful and you can take courses also
00:57:37.540with christopher there's an amazing catalog of evergreen courses that go deeper on tarot work
00:57:44.640and on astrology as well and then i think you can also do readings and work one-on-one which i'm
00:57:50.300sure would be such a thrill thank you so much everyone for being here i will offer an opportunity
00:57:55.900for questions yeah i'm walking home i was listening to you guys while i was shopping
01:01:50.920Thank you so much for joining us. Christopher, this has been amazing. So I'm a tarot reader myself. And one of my favorite tarot phenomena is pulling a familiar card in a new context and like learning a deeper level or like a new facet to that archetype. And so I'm curious if you had any experiences like that during the process of writing your book.
01:02:11.840Oh, great question. Thank you so much, Aaron. I love that. As I've been saying more recently is like you're saying like the catchphrase kind of thing. Maybe not as profound, but cards are like cast iron skillets. Okay, as I would like to say, cards are like cast iron skillets, like they each reading is adding a bit more flavor, a bit more texture, like a bit more use a bit more expansiveness in terms of its application, its appearance, its mode.
01:02:36.460once you once you know that card like you know in a deep in a deep level your antenna are up in
01:02:43.480terms of how it may manifest in a sense or like what will fulfill it in a mode but at the same
01:02:50.440time for me it's always kind of new like oh that's totally the eight of wands or something but like
01:02:55.340from this deck in this depiction and then in this moment that that's what i love about tarot reading
01:03:00.480is that it's like endlessly a renewable source in that sense like where you shuffle the deck you get
01:03:06.020a new deck you lay different cards together and they're going to change their tone they're going
01:03:11.120to change their expression that also makes it difficult to write but at the same time again i
01:03:16.260think it's like what's helpful for me in terms of a writing practice by being able to like put a pin
01:03:23.080in some of their significations and like tie some of them together and then have them regenerate in
01:03:29.520the background while i'm working on a new deck and then are like a new card or archetype or something
01:03:33.280and then like a deeper layer unfolds or something you know and then i'm like oh my gosh like
01:03:39.180it builds upon itself it just gets more flavor the more that you work with them
01:03:43.600so yeah i hope that i did that answer yeah absolutely thank you the answer was yes all of
01:03:50.580them yes every type keep going deeper i love the cast iron skillet analogy i had not heard that
01:03:57.560before and i'm gonna adopt that so thank you absolutely okay great yeah i have to share a
01:04:04.160picture with you guys afterwards of the ridiculous amount of cast iron in my house there's a wall
01:04:10.220right outside my office hung with different cast iron skillets we use them all every day they're
01:04:15.100all thrifted amazing brilliant we're maniacs for the cast iron my kid named a fish in our lake cast
01:04:21.160iron when she was two oh wow i love that oh my god i'm really feeling your metaphor
01:04:28.180thank you yes like you can get more than one cast iron skillet you know yeah yeah get all
01:04:36.400your skillet and all of them thank you so so much this is just just been incredibly enriching for me
01:04:44.720i hope that you felt loved and held in our coven circle yes oh so much thank you all so much for
01:04:55.360for tuning in for asking me questions and listening and thank you so again so much for
01:05:00.360just inviting me on again i'm so proud to be a label mate i feel very like right
01:05:07.160so rock and roll like we gotta we gotta collab like we gotta work i know oh i was about to say
01:05:14.560you're going to get 17 more emails from us about things we want to do together yes please i welcome
01:05:20.140them oh my god this is amazing yeah thank you this was such a highlight to to my day also into the
01:05:27.160the moons in libra i'm having my lunar return so thank you for spending my lunar birthday with me
01:05:32.260i'm honored all right everybody love you so much be safe out there
01:05:39.240here's here's to being pariah prophets yes cheers blessed if i can be blessed if i can be yes