00:03:04.220And I think you are like embodying that at a very, very high level, working from the inside.
00:03:12.100As witches, we can feel like outsiders at every turn.
00:03:15.920And I love when we discover witches who are working the system from the inside.
00:03:21.100i think both need to be happening right yeah and i think that i mentioned this to melissa who was on
00:03:27.820the same episode as i was last time that i don't know about her but sometimes it feels uh being a
00:03:35.660lawyer and which sometimes feels twice as lonely because you never really fit into either group
00:03:40.620so um i've come to terms with that and i've accepted that i'm not meant to fit completely in
00:03:47.100in one or the other but it's it's really um gratifying to find when um you that that place
00:03:57.720that you can hold in in in both in that liminal area is appreciated so thank you yes yes I I feel
00:04:07.160compelled to mention again that's sort of an intersection of you know being a lawyer and
00:04:12.900being a witch that like what you will hear is not advice it's information so there's no legal advice
00:04:20.980that's going to happen today but in the same way that we can't give advice about about your you
00:04:28.040being the people listening to this right now about your witchcraft we can give you information we can
00:04:33.800tell you what we've learned but ultimately you know you will need to see a practitioner
00:04:39.060on your own to get um to get actual advice i think that goes for both witchcraft and
00:04:47.120being a lawyer right right the caveat being that um there's no regulating body to like um
00:04:56.700this bar or unlicensed uh spiritual practitioners there definitely is one for
00:05:02.940legal practitioners and so i yes thank you for that reminder this is not legal advice and this
00:05:09.140does not confer an attorney-client relationship and that's the magic spell to ward off any of
00:05:15.260those thoughts let's talk about that because this is so fascinating to me that this notion of
00:05:22.680contract law being a very very very magical practice you know um i think in in one of the
00:05:32.120biographies that I read of Lozen the Apache were saying that the white men seemed bound to this
00:05:39.540piece of paper and that seemed very supernatural to them that the that the white man was bound
00:05:45.940to this piece of paper um does it help to think of contracts as uh works of witchcraft as magical
00:05:58.320I tend to think so. Um, there's been not so much in contracts, which, um, staying on that subject
00:06:06.080for a minute, they definitely have the force of law behind them or don't depending on what's
00:06:13.940contained in them. And, um, I've had a case that I prevailed on, uh, I kid you not based on the
00:06:24.400placement of a comma and how that modified an entire sentence and the interpretation of
00:06:31.320the terms defined in that clause. And so I definitely think so that there's a magic to it.
00:06:41.120I know that non-witchy attorneys wouldn't call it that. They'd call it, you know, well, it's
00:06:48.000canons of construction and standards of interpretation and such, but something beyond
00:06:54.080us is definitely there can you say those terms again canons of construction and and standards
00:07:04.100of interpretation that's like it that sounds so occultish to me and I guess and I mean there's
00:07:15.520so many times that um I think of the times when people will go seek out an attorney and the times
00:07:22.580people will go seek out um a witch or a spiritual practitioner and a lot of times they coincide you
00:07:28.580go to somebody when um you need help and when you don't know exactly how to resolve an issue
00:07:35.940and you go to people that because of their training or their calling or for some reason
00:07:42.080have that special knowledge um and so even though we're using english in this case for the law
00:07:49.280it's not um you know day-to-day conversational language it's got special meaning and
00:07:57.400when you put it together has a special um effect on the real world yeah yeah like again
00:08:06.640like spells but in a definitely more formalized way right i maybe just more accepted way and
00:08:15.120definitely more um well permeate it permeates definitely more in our tangible world
00:08:21.820so i was saying before we we you haven't been on the podcast we've spoken but you haven't been on
00:08:29.820the podcast since june of 2020 i want to know your your focus is immigration what have you seen
00:08:39.840in terms of the changing of administration in the united states what have you seen if anything
00:08:46.300what have you seen change in that with the new administration well the the biggest change is that
00:08:54.840we um i think that as soon as the election results were formalized and that's not even to say the
00:09:04.560horrible circus and, I mean, attempted coup that happened later. But once it was looking like there
00:09:14.620would be a change of administration here, I think that we cite a collective sigh of relief because
00:09:20.360if you hadn't been keeping up with the issue itself, there were so many things that came to
00:09:28.620light that the Trump administration was intending to pass in the second term that were that much
00:09:36.540more horrific than the first. So when we figured out that's not going to happen, that was a big
00:09:42.580relief. I know that a lot of my colleagues in the last few years have left, either left this area
00:09:49.660of practice or left the practice of law completely because those four years just wore the shit out
00:09:54.920of us pretty much. So that's, that was one change. And initially, there were a lot of
00:10:02.860really positive shifts again in policy as far as who's the bigger priority for enforcement
00:10:15.100and trying to expand channels for people to procedurally come in and be incorporated into
00:10:28.680the community that is the United States in a legal way. But what I've seen lately is that
00:10:35.380the opponents to more open society and more open immigration are, they might not be in the White
00:10:48.780House, but they're fighting tooth and nail to stop the White House from implementing all of
00:10:55.660these other changes. So, you know, you hear all these stories about states suing the federal
00:11:01.080government to stop it from doing what it wants to um because the um you know the whatever
00:11:09.160leadership in respective states don't don't agree so that's where we're at right now um and then
00:11:14.400sadly one thing i will um critique the administration on i i can't but um necessarily
00:11:21.520complain because in some things these litigations tie their hands but um there's been very only
00:11:28.060lip service um as to what they claimed was a a priority and that was to address the root causes
00:11:36.580of migration so that's been something that yes they said they talked a big game about but not
00:11:40.940much has been done from what i've seen and until you address that um these human rights issues are
00:11:48.600still going to be there yeah i think i think we have a big problem with lip service in general
00:11:55.900in the 21st century I mean before but now it's just kind of more in our faces you know we
00:12:02.560activists used to concentrate a lot on a consciousness raising we called it which
00:12:09.120was just basically like letting people know what's happening and now with social media you know we
00:12:15.340we know we have a constant stream of information that's literally in the palm of our hands at all
00:12:19.540time so like you say we get a lot of big talking but we don't get a lot of
00:12:27.940you podcast listeners can't see me right now but I'm just making a hand gesture because I don't
00:12:36.240know yeah you're making an oomph gesture but I guess follow follow through is is what I was
00:12:43.700looking for so how can we especially you know I'm in Canada you're in the United States we have
00:12:51.480these massive geographically massive places so there's like a governments and then sub-governments
00:13:00.320and sub-sub-governments and sub-sub-governments and sub-sub-governments so from your insider
00:13:07.140perspective of being in the legal world, what do you think is the layman's best way in to some sort
00:13:16.640of agency or holding politicians accountable for making promises that they don't keep?
00:13:28.040What's your best information, not advice, the best way in for a layman?
00:13:33.560I would say, first and foremost, educate yourself. So stay informed about the issues that are
00:13:44.340important to you. And I'm guilty of this, but it doesn't help any of us to overlook our community
00:13:52.780and our local governments because so much happens here. But a lot of times we just get caught up in
00:13:59.220the whirlwind of national politics or state politics and um that's where a lot of the you
00:14:05.580know sweeping changes happen but the um you know the the trickles the the straw that can break the
00:14:13.640the man's back so to speak happen the man camel they happen at the local level so um
00:14:20.800And they're also the easiest entry into actually participating and being the change from within.
00:14:35.140And so I know that people have a different opinion as to how valuable that is and whether that's legitimate if you don't consider the overall governmental structure legitimate for whatever reason.
00:14:46.800But like it or not, it's there right now. And so if we can find ways to, I like to call it, to beat the government on its own game, you know, let's go for it. And I think that that would be probably the best place to stay informed and start locally.
00:15:09.980yes and once again i mean i think that this reverberates in our lives this think locally
00:15:20.720you know whether we're talking about our environment whether we're talking about
00:15:24.160justice whether we're talking about you know our values um you know start with your own family
00:15:30.580you know work outward from the from the smallest possible um unit of humans
00:15:38.600that you can and try to work outwards from there and speaking of working outwards um
00:15:46.500you started a Facebook group is that is that because like you said you know this
00:15:54.380this witch lawyer intersection can be a lonely place yes um and when I announced that um that
00:16:03.540I had created it um I I was at a place where I figured okay if I want this and I know that0.95
00:16:11.900there's other people maybe not that many of us but you know some then um who else is going to do it
00:16:19.240and so yes I I created the lawyer witch coven and um I was surprised uh there you know it doesn't
00:16:27.300have thousands of people but I was surprised that there were um people that um enough to to join the
00:16:35.240group there were people that are attorneys and lawyers I'm sorry attorneys and witches
00:16:38.900yeah and so there's a few of us in there do you find that there's like a need for anonymity do
00:16:47.840you worry that somehow you're you and the members of your group do they worry that there's going to
00:16:54.440be some kind of loss of credibility because of this self-proclaimed witchiness unfortunately yes
00:17:02.880if you search it up it's it's a private group and it was created that way to give people that
00:17:13.820safety because there really is a stigma still not just here and the thing is that there's
00:17:22.060membership from around the world. And so there's countries where the practice of law is even more,
00:17:32.280excuse, even more conservatively than, you know, in ours here in the West. And so definitely there's
00:17:38.120this need for the community to share in that common ground, but also being mindful and protective of
00:17:46.580of your livelihood yeah and i'm i think once again that's what it comes down to for so many
00:17:55.320of us when we're like why aren't we rioting in the streets i mean we'll we'll get to abortion
00:18:00.380in a second you know and we have rioted in the streets and we you know many people have put
00:18:08.300their lives on the line to be on the front lines but those that don't um it's often because it
00:18:15.040comes down to like I can either stand up for this but then I won't be able to feed my children
00:18:20.600and so again that's kind of like the trap of capitalism right like if your
00:18:25.320politics are tied to your ability to house your children or to take care of your family
00:18:33.560and if you say the wrong thing or if you do the wrong thing then that goes away it definitely
00:18:38.040you know douses your fire to make a revolution right and i think that that's where that um
00:18:48.280the the saying from the the feminist movement in the 70s the political is personal um comes in
00:18:57.420that's where um you i remember this one line from um i don't even know if it's a direct quote but i
00:19:06.620know it was in the script anyway for the the John Adams miniseries from HBO where Abigail
00:19:14.140his wife is telling him do I not live politics when I you know open the cupboard and I don't
00:19:20.100have coffee I don't have sugar because we're boycotting the the British do I not live politics
00:19:26.540and so yeah there's so many ways that we people tend to think of politics as something that is
00:19:34.320abstract and for um snooty people that just want to nerd out on the law but no it affects us
00:19:43.000all on a day-to-day um as yeah as these recent events have have shown us all the more i want
00:19:52.220to ask you as a lawyer to give us information not advice what happened how i mean i think
00:20:01.580Roe v. Wade could have been codified under Obama. It could have been codified under Biden. It wasn't. Can you tell us why not? What happened? How did this happen? Information, not advice. How did this happen?
00:20:15.660um politically under obama um this is just my personal take i feel like um
00:20:33.220had a very idealistic um sense of of his presidency in um in terms of uh
00:20:45.220Believing and I think giving too much credit to the other side that they would exercise civility and play fair, so to speak.
00:20:56.500And so in that spirit, I believe that a focus and not a wrong one, but a focus of his administration was to pass universal health care, which ended up being whittled down in the end.
00:21:09.920But it was still an immense change at the time from the status quo before. So that said, I believe that, especially at that time, nobody thought that the question of the future of Roe was ever in doubt.
00:21:28.500Sure. And I don't think any of us would argue with like universal health care as like being a focus and a priority. So let's say that right away.
00:21:38.800Like, none of us will argue with that. That's a great focus and a great and a great priority, please.
00:21:44.340yeah definitely um and so i think that a lot of um eggs were put into that basket and a lot of
00:21:51.840concessions were made in other places so as to keep that as a possibility and um
00:21:58.580regardless of of what it looks like today because i know that this isn't the this is we don't have
00:22:05.380universal health care um in the u.s we'll we'll just be honest about that but it's definitely an
00:22:10.280improvement. And then I think that under Biden, I'll just be honest, it was blocked in the Senate
00:22:22.580and the Senate has a much tighter, it's got more strict rules about how to put votes in and the
00:22:33.360minority party has a lot more tools um to be able to stop things that it doesn't agree with and so
00:22:40.740that's where we are there with the court um this is my very jaded and disillusioned um answer
00:22:48.560honestly five justices um committed perjury in their senate confirmation hearings and went and0.94
00:22:55.840did whatever the fuck they wanted when they had the chance so that's the summary of the supreme0.95
00:23:00.360court uh decision yeah and we were talking about lip service before like it's very easy to say0.99
00:23:06.440whatever but there seems to be no consequence for just abjectly lying and perjuring yourself i mean
00:23:13.920we have video evidence of this perjury video evidence of this perjury and yet these
00:23:20.620people i assume are not going to be removed from the supreme court or tried for this or
00:23:26.220right i mean you know the i know that there's a bunch of us that are making that
00:23:33.540um argument and and definitely trying to take that action somewhere but you're right i mean
00:23:38.820there's no they shamelessly lied under oath and then turned around and did the exact opposite
00:23:44.540of what they said they what they swore they would do yeah and for for those of you who are listening
00:23:51.680who it's too fucking traumatic to follow the you know the intricacies of the news on this
00:23:58.880um these people when you before you become a supreme court justice you go through you know a0.89
00:24:06.720interview process let's call it but it's a little more you know a little more compelling than an
00:24:13.300interview process and all of these justices said that they had no intention of touching roe v wade
00:24:18.840No intention at all in explicit and clear language. And so that's what we're talking about right now, that these justices said, I have no intention of, you know, causing any harm to Roe v. Wade and where America stood on that. And they lied. And that's fine. But they are also in charge of justice for America.
00:24:43.960So, again, I mean, I'm baffled and confused. You use the words jaded and disillusioned. I think you have every right. So, I mean, is that where your witchcraft comes in, I guess, like to counter the jaded, to counter the disillusionment?
00:25:02.500oh yeah I think we talked a little bit about it last time that um I I know that a lot of people
00:25:09.840have um mixed feelings or hang-ups about just you know the love and light part of witchcraft but
00:25:16.620there's times where that's exactly what I need because everything else um just is
00:25:23.420you know shit sometimes um so that's definitely where I find um the comfort it you know and just
00:25:33.720being thankful for uh the the little gifts that every day gives us I um everyone that listens to0.99
00:25:43.280this and knows me is gonna say yeah she's so full of shit because I really do have a hard time0.74
00:25:47.900sometimes focusing on that positive, but, um, just please know everyone that I, when, when you tell0.97
00:25:55.280me these things, I listen, I take them to heart. It might not come out, um, in a form that you all
00:26:00.480can see, but there, it's definitely there. And, um, I, um, sometimes I, I think back, for example,
00:26:10.720of, um, a time that I had, uh, a legal, I guess, um, dispute I had to, I, I had to, uh, a problem
00:26:23.600that I needed to solve. And so the practice helped me, um, kind of focus all of this unuseful
00:26:34.120and chaotic uh energy around like just anger and um the feeling of helplessness and then
00:26:42.020being able to put that away somewhere through ritual kind of made let me come back to my center
00:26:48.840and start thinking logically and critically about what had to be done so it helps me in that sense
00:26:54.340definitely too yeah i mean let's not um pretend that anger doesn't have its place obviously in
00:27:03.040your work anger must I mean it is the original reason that you took on this profession I would
00:27:09.960imagine you know your quest for justice it wasn't about everything's great and I'm gonna help
00:27:15.720everything stay great it was like we need change and anger is on general in general like step one
00:27:23.860step one toward change is going to be our anger so I'm the same I consider myself to be a very
00:27:29.120happy and joyful person but many people who know me would scoff at that because I'm also so angry
00:27:36.180so angry you know so I vacillate between these positions of like you know flowers are amazing
00:27:46.400and miracles and also oh my goodness we need to burn the patriarchy to the ground and start over
00:27:53.680again you know so i really respect people like you who again are not paralyzed um by your anger
00:28:05.620i know that happens to me sometimes where i just get overwhelmed by it and like i say it becomes
00:28:11.640this paralysis but you you channel it into something more productive so thank you thank
00:28:20.500you for being a role model well thank you sometimes I'll say I I get there too um I
00:28:26.880I sometimes find it hard to get up in the morning also um and I mean especially as of late to
00:28:34.620go into court and um present anything before you know uh an entity that for all
00:28:45.560purposes really um doesn't believe I have full rights to my own being um whether or not the
00:28:55.980individual people there agree with it or not but the the system that's what it's stated um that's
00:29:03.220not to say that I believe that that's what it was intended for I don't I definitely don't believe
00:29:08.180that and um I you know plan to hold it accountable but right now that's the message that's being put
00:29:15.220out so yeah I get there too and I think I'm still there now um so what what is a good course of
00:29:22.760action for for those people who are listening who are so angry um and they're they're trying
00:29:29.640to come up with a way to channel that into some shit productive um again who aren't either in a0.82
00:29:38.160in a financial or in a physical or in in a health way uh able to be on some kind of front line0.97
00:29:46.420you know throwing bricks what what are some ways that we can that we can channel that anger
00:29:53.140information not advice from your perspective as a lawyer and then maybe I can ask you again
00:29:59.900from your perspective as a witch yeah well as a lawyer um I I think anybody can do this with
00:30:07.800whatever their calling is or their position. But right now, I find that everything in me is
00:30:19.020telling me that my place in this right now is to find ways that my skill set and my knowledge can
00:30:26.880be used. And so I'm channeling a lot of it into legal research and working groups with other women0.96
00:30:34.760lawyers to see what we can do as lawyers to look at different things. I think that, so that would0.98
00:30:46.240be one thing. If you, for example, if you're a, I would imagine if you're a healthcare practitioner,
00:30:51.340and again, this is not telling people to go to any of this, but, you know, you have another
00:30:58.000different skill set and you can, um, provide education and, um, help point people to resources
00:31:05.880that way. Um, and the more knowledge in this, especially in this, uh, particular issue,
00:31:12.980the more knowledge that we have about our health and about our ourselves, the way, you know,
00:31:17.420our physiology works and our anatomy works, the better we are, um, we're going to be equipped,
00:31:24.140for the day-to-day application of these, you know, draconian laws that are being executed and
00:31:31.020enforced now. I think just for anybody that doesn't feel like they have, and I say feel because a lot
00:31:39.780of times we're our own worst critics, but anybody that doesn't feel like they have those types of
00:31:44.360specialized skills or knowledge, I would say, you know, you can start with yourself and just, and,
00:31:55.840and start a, start, start a petition or start looking to
00:32:07.680candidates that reflect your values more and help them get elected. Our vote is our voice
00:32:19.660still as much as they try to silence it. And so that would be the very most individual at the
00:32:28.460single person level that you can start to do something. So from the legal realm or the
00:32:38.400political realm, I would say that those are the best ways to try and do that. And, you know,
00:32:43.540at the very least, most of us have access to social media and other ways to just disseminate
00:32:52.320disinformation. And what's your best argument when, you know, I am friends with a lot of
00:33:00.040anarchists and many, some of them are so disillusioned that they have lost all faith
00:33:07.680in the voting practice. You obviously disagree with that. So can you give us a speech to deliver
00:33:14.140unto them when they when they tell us there's no point in casting a vote um I I these days I'll be
00:33:26.240honest I I don't know that I could really blame anybody for thinking that and um and I have those
00:33:33.320friends as well. Um, but for me, um, the vote is a, a way to use our voice, maybe not the, you know,
00:33:46.800our literal vocal cords, but it's an expression of our voice. It's an expression of, of ourselves.
00:33:52.660And so it's a way to communicate. And for me, when you don't communicate, the end result down the line sooner or later is war and violence.
00:34:08.060And so, you know, nations have gone to war over not understanding each other and also over, you know, ceasing communication.
00:34:15.960And so for me, while I won't say that I'm a pacifist because I do believe in the right to defend yourself, and I don't know that that fits into a lot of pacifist thought, but I do believe that physical violence should be avoided if at all possible.
00:34:42.580And so anything that we can do to try to steer away from that end result is worth it to me at every step of the way.
00:34:54.080yes it's it's everything is very nuanced right like you say I'm a pacifist but you know I
00:35:04.260believe in this and and that's I think one of the issues that we're having I don't want to call it
00:35:10.280a modern issue because I think this has always been the case but the abject polarization of
00:35:15.980you know value systems which is not how it works there are a lot of people who
00:35:23.120you know have this maybe more economically conservative view but like a social
00:35:28.300libertarian and and we're all these like venn diagrams of politics so it's seems even more
00:35:35.340confusing to as a nation be under a two-party system and especially now the metaphor that i
00:35:47.000always use it it's so perfect i don't know if you listeners um ever watched the simpsons the tv show
00:35:54.360there was an episode where two aliens come and invade earth and they've invaded it's the two
00:36:01.680aliens and then fast forward years later there's a political rally and kang is running and crotos
00:36:10.160is running. And I think Marge says to Homer, you know, I'm voting for Kang. And Homer's like,0.93
00:36:16.920I'm voting for Kratos. And so this is what I say when I look at this two-party system that is,
00:36:23.660I mean, with the exception of our current vice president and two presidents ago, an exclusively
00:36:28.380white male dominion presidency and vice presidency. And it feels like
00:36:35.160i'm voting for kang well i'm voting for crotos but really really they both just came in on the same
00:36:43.780ship if that makes sense so do you think there's any chance of the united states moving away from
00:36:52.620a two-party system ever i wish i could say definitely yes but i agree with you that that
00:37:02.280is a problem and um one of the big um the bigger problems with it is that um both sides not only
00:37:15.860um I call it appropriate issues um but because there is no alternative both sides um and I'll
00:37:28.200go into this a little bit more, but both sides tend to also, by necessity, represent the extreme
00:37:37.060fringes of their respective ends of the spectrum. So there's no way to just let the fringe weirdos
00:37:49.720of the right or the friend of the left um have their own space and um try to effect change
00:37:58.800politically uh and and let it stay there because it's not the what the um majority would uh want
00:38:06.140in either case but um they end up uh having i think more uh influence than they should over
00:38:18.100the lives of most people in the country. So I think that that's one of the problems. And then
00:38:24.860the other problem, like I was saying at first, is that the appropriation of issues means that you
00:38:30.400can, like you were saying, there's people that end up being possibly socially libertarian,
00:38:36.900but fiscally conservative, having to make the choice of which is a priority to me and supporting
00:38:45.360the one while you know the other issues are being um completely they're disregarded or
00:38:51.820acted against by that same side i think that that's that's definitely a big problem here
00:38:56.700so yes or no do you think there will ever be not a two-party system in the united states
00:39:04.400is this even something that we should be the yes or no question
00:39:08.120I love a please expand but I just want to even know if like information not advice as a lawyer
00:39:16.600what do you think do you think that this is even something that
00:39:19.900is on the horizon or this will be many generations when we're long dead
00:39:24.400I'm hopeful that maybe the chaos that is the present political
00:39:33.160landscape will start those conversations in earnest and seriously but there's so much
00:39:43.240um invested in this two-party system um in terms of the actual mechanics of how uh democracy works
00:39:51.020here that those would all have to be overhauled and completely redone to to make that space so
00:40:02.100I think that if it's going to happen, it'll be out of something like what we're seeing right now.
00:40:09.520So if there's any time to start that, it's now.
00:40:14.580And so I think that maybe, you know, that it might be a conversation that more of us need to be having in groups with friends and such.
00:40:20.580so let's go back to spring of 2020 and when we were talking obviously the the hot button issue
00:40:29.920was uh police violence um have you seen what have you seen in in the past two years
00:40:38.360information not advice from uh from a legal standpoint what changes if any have you have
00:40:46.060you seen in the past two years in terms of how america is policed um i think that the um
00:40:59.360so since then we also had the the verdict in in the the george floyd case and i think that um
00:41:08.680that kind of was um uh maybe a rude awakening in a way for um the police establishment that
00:41:23.180um one that those uh bad apples so to speak um and were not going to be able to completely
00:41:32.900hide behind the shield anymore. But I think also that the way they were viewed by certain
00:41:45.240groups of the community and members of the community that they were supposed to also
00:41:53.660protect and serve um was not helpful so i've on on one end i've seen um there's always those uh
00:42:06.260places where the um establishment is going to hunker down and um resist all the more but there's
00:42:13.840There's been, I think, at least the willingness to engage in dialogue, which is always a good thing.
00:42:25.940Unfortunately, as we just saw in Ohio, these incidents continue to happen, but they're no longer happening in the shadows.
00:42:38.840and so that's always good transparency um is always conducive to to accountability so
00:42:46.220so that's been a positive change yeah some some amount of accountability is always good
00:42:53.420um in our politicians in our police officers i know that we had um someone write in a question
00:43:01.540last time you were on the show about like workplace harassment and obviously you know
00:43:06.640labor is a major conversation right now I think your advice at the time was document document
00:43:15.760document document everything you can I think that that's information not advice um I think that
00:43:23.040that that probably stands for everything document document document whether it's a problem with your
00:43:29.140landlord whether it's a problem with the police whether it's a problem with your boss or your
00:43:35.100neighbor that documentation is going to be the key to your seeking of justice right because um
00:43:49.140for uh purposes of the law um it's a lot of times the a lot of things will depend on the optics and
00:44:01.620what you're able to show and we're not at a place where we can read minds yet or you know
00:44:09.620sense intentions and so a lot of those things are gauged and analyzed through through actions and
00:44:16.780through real life things and so yes documenting is is a key to to all of it always keep that paper
00:44:26.620trail yes and nowadays again it's never been easier to take a video if you're in a public
00:44:33.520situation to record in that way but also old school it keep a journal keep notes these are
00:44:40.360things that are admissible um in courts so yeah document document document stay angry but try to0.87
00:44:50.880channel that shit into something productive yeah do any of our coven members who are here0.74
00:44:57.460now have questions for pam pam are you comfortable taking some questions before i yes0.98
00:45:03.640once again if you have questions pertaining to uh legal information but not specific advice
00:45:13.420then we can we can get into that it looks like diane might have something to say if you're
00:45:19.420finished your lunch yes i am thanks that was amazing thank you so much um i'm just guess
00:45:26.820i'm wondering about what we can do here in canada uh to support what's going on down in the in the
00:45:32.800u.s i having witchy friends and others who are writing to me and saying i want to move to canada
00:45:38.220i want to move to canada so i don't know if you have any advice um for us and on how to support
00:45:45.380reach out whatever you know i think that um the most tangible thing that um when you know our
00:45:57.480allies in canada can do would be to um support and uh reinforce the the infrastructure that's
00:46:05.660already there especially on the border because i know that a lot of women will probably have to seek
00:46:09.980out um you know medical attention and access to abortion uh on the border and so the the easier
00:46:19.520that that is done um the the better that that that experience will go for them um in terms of
00:46:29.160maybe politics um you know pressuring your government to to admonish and shame ours for
00:46:38.540this decision always helps and let the United States Supreme Court know that the eyes of the
00:46:49.260world are on it. Thanks, Diane. That was a great question. I think we're a bit smug here in Canada.
00:47:01.680You know, we tend to think that we are untouchable, but, you know, we've all seen pictures of, you know, Iran in the 70s, where women are freely walking around in their miniskirts and enjoying their liberties.
00:47:16.060um that we are all on this slippery slope all of us um best not to be smug i know you didn't ask
00:47:24.940me and this is not legal information or advice i am but i think yeah to to not get smug to not
00:47:31.760think well that could never happen here because it could it really could oh we thought that yeah
00:47:38.260sadly i i you know i i'm embarrassed to admit it in a way now we thought that there's no way
00:50:02.600you were talking about educating yourself Pam and and unfortunately this is going to be at every
00:50:10.100turn this is going to be at every turn every moment is going to require us to educate ourselves
00:50:15.660beyond anything we ever imagined because there literally is like someone trying to trick us
00:50:20.460around every corner who will you know claim to be supporting our cause and then will drive us
00:50:26.720to uh to a church my takeaway is that we are all in politics
00:50:33.780we are all in politics you know we've been saying it all of the personal is political
00:50:42.620but the political is also personal yes we we are all in politics like you said the
00:50:49.720the food that you eat there there is really under capitalism especially there is no escaping
00:50:55.660this need to educate ourselves about every choice that we make again even as consumers
00:51:03.260as consumers of social media and media not just like whether we eat meat or drink coca-cola
00:51:09.720or buy nestle products how we vote i mean there really is not a moment of our day that isn't
00:51:16.900infiltrated by politics and i think being conscious of that while exhausting and terrifying and
00:51:23.160demoralizing also can help us to regain a sense of control in our own lives.
00:51:31.640No, definitely. I, I think it in, in my own journey, I've realized that again, I'm not
00:51:41.000meant to belong to, you know, any one group. And actually I, I think that I'm more of more used to
00:51:49.400the world, so to speak, if I can kind of shed light on the perspectives of different groups
00:51:59.060to each other. So that's where I'm really working as well. But I definitely think that
00:52:04.820when you say the political is personal and the personal is political, that a lot of times
00:52:11.020we end up disagreeing or differing, differentiating an opinion as to what we're allowed to take
00:52:22.840personally. And I think that politics a lot of times is a difference in opinion as to what
00:52:28.140you're allowed to take personally. You know, I, for example, take my bodily autonomy extremely
00:52:34.780personally. And so I'm enraged right now. And somebody, you know, the other side, for argument's
00:52:44.820sake, all they're seeing is, well, I take, I don't know, the sanctity of life, quote, unquote,
00:52:49.480very personally. And both sides might be very well-intentioned and not coming from any place
00:52:57.800of malice. But when we start really talking to each other, that's where we can find that. So,
00:53:04.040yeah don't ever stop that's amazing and that that's great advice and i once again i i want
00:53:12.820to thank you for your bravery in starting the lawyer witch group on facebook yeah i get it
00:53:19.200might and for those of you who are listening like these are things that might not sound like much
00:53:23.380on on a resume but they really are you slash us slash pam taking steps to make a difference and
00:53:33.360a difference doesn't have to be like you say even when you're talking about like locally and locally
00:53:39.240can be within your own home even you know the choices that you make inside your house without
00:53:44.900even leaving those without even getting out of bed you can make political choices and some of
00:53:52.100those choices are about making someone feel less lonely again to me a political action to make
00:53:59.500someone feel less alone is like a political act that you can take today
00:54:05.240should we end on that that's a beautiful thought definitely
00:54:12.600what are in summation please give us your closing statements
00:54:17.420well um as hard as it might be right now to um not give up don't don't give up because
00:54:29.480Because we can't afford it and we need everybody to continue to stay involved and concerned and put in and contribute what they have to contribute.