Missing Witches - WF Saleema Nawaz： Songs for the End of the World

00:00:00.000 You aren't being a proper woman, therefore you must be a witch. 1.00

00:00:06.500 You must be a witch. 1.00

00:00:10.420 So, welcome. 0.80

00:00:13.520 On this end of November fall moon, this episode of Missing Witches, 0.96

00:00:19.160 and this strange tipping end part of this fucking strange year. 0.66

00:00:25.460 and this is the water freezing moon and this beaver pelt moon and it's the morning moon 0.94

00:00:31.980 as in you know in morning to me it feels like we are and will be for a long time

00:00:39.620 in morning for the trauma and loss of this pandemic year but there's also this

00:00:46.000 little flower of hope and so it feels so right to get to talk to our guest for this episode

00:00:53.100 Salima Nuaz author of the beautiful and deeply weirdly prophetic novel songs for the end of the

00:01:02.060 world I love this book so much but Salima um hi and welcome to the Missing Riches cabin

00:01:08.240 I wondered if you would maybe introduce yourself since I feel like you will know yourself better

00:01:14.300 and what you want to share about yourself better than I can sure thank you and and hi um thanks

00:01:22.800 for having me. So my name is Salima Nawaz, as you said. I feel like you kind of covered everything,

00:01:29.180 Risa, but I will read my little personal intro anyways. I'm a Montreal-based writer. I've

00:01:37.500 written short stories and two novels, including Songs for the End of the World, which came out

00:01:44.380 this year from McClellan and Stewart. It's gotten some attention because, yeah, it was written

00:01:51.160 completely before COVID-19, but it happens to be about a handful of interconnected characters

00:01:58.000 living through the opening weeks and months of a novel coronavirus pandemic that

00:02:04.140 also within the book takes place in 2020. I loved this book and it just is so deeply

00:02:13.000 surreal in a deeply surreal year. I can only imagine how surreal that's been for you.

00:02:19.020 it you know it has it has been really surreal um but there's this weird there's this weird way and

00:02:29.460 I haven't really said this before but I feel like the missing witches podcast is the is an okay

00:02:34.380 place to say this which is that in some ways it like it didn't like it was almost not surprising

00:02:42.320 like even though it was so surreal like um for anyone who's read the book there's a character

00:02:50.280 in the in the novel who's a writer who has written a pandemic novel that within

00:02:56.920 my novel it it it seems as though his pandemic novel is coming true

00:03:02.780 um which is like this extra like meta level but like to go back to like from the very first

00:03:10.780 moments I was planning the novel I was I was imagining what if it came true you know like

00:03:17.860 I imagined this happening from the very first moment I started thinking about the book that's

00:03:23.020 why there is a character in the book who has written a pandemic novel that seems as though

00:03:27.340 it's it's coming true so so like of course it's incredibly surreal and it's super weird

00:03:32.700 but it also takes me back to that first moment of conceiving the book and and imagining

00:03:40.100 this exact thing happening god I don't even know how to wrap my mind around what that is like I

00:03:50.780 mean except that there is that moment of of writing that I can relate to where you're like

00:03:56.120 this is both stories like just the like fun and joy and crazy head fuck of telling a story

00:04:04.560 and also like this is true somehow you know it took me so long to write it I was writing it for

00:04:11.580 years and there were times where I just felt like I would never be finished writing it

00:04:17.280 um and and now it feels like I'm I'm living in it and it still isn't finished um so that

00:04:26.380 that is kind of the freaky part yeah yeah and now you're like a little bit outside of the bounds of

00:04:33.260 the book you know but you're still it still must feel like you're inside the fictional world like

00:04:37.720 yeah a little bit so where did the story come from or like in a bigger way where do you think

00:04:46.660 stories come from that's a big question um I I think you know I think stories are

00:04:57.320 are inside us you know that they're they're always within us human beings you know have

00:05:03.700 always been telling stories and it's just it's like part of our of our makeup like it's part

00:05:08.900 of our dna like those those myths and those archetypes um are just part of who we are so

00:05:16.620 i think stories are inevitable in a way i always have this image in my mind since i

00:05:25.180 read this I think it's an Elizabeth Gilbert thing but talking about she she felt like she

00:05:31.300 was always just watching like wind come across fields that that was the feeling of like waiting

00:05:36.860 for stories and being hit by them oh wow yeah it's a beautiful image I I know when I was younger I

00:05:44.000 had this this sense of needing to like to wait for inspiration like not when I was really young

00:05:52.000 like when I was a kid, I would just, you know, write incessantly, you know, about like orphan

00:05:56.260 girls and stuff like that. But then when I was sort of like trying, like more seriously to be

00:06:02.880 a writer, then I would just like, felt like I had to wait for this, almost this like overwhelming

00:06:06.860 urge to write, you know, and like this kind of like special tingly feeling that would like drive

00:06:12.480 me to, to write. But, you know, since, since then it's, it's like hard to like, remember back to

00:06:20.520 that feeling even though I know there are there are aspiring writers and other writers out there

00:06:26.080 who feel that way but but now it's just like there's almost too much to write about you know

00:06:32.340 it's it's like inspiration is is the ocean and it's there you know you just dip your toe in and

00:06:38.780 and there's just like an ocean of of things of stories are you are you comfortable with the idea

00:06:45.600 of magic I didn't really ask you this but we talked about um having you on this podcast but

00:06:51.620 like is that something you think about how does that I because it feels like what you're describing

00:06:56.700 is so connected to the way some people on this podcast and in many other places have talked about

00:07:01.000 spirit or magic this sort of this becoming acquainted with it was like meeting a giant

00:07:09.720 reserve or ocean of inspiration yeah I you know there I I have so many thoughts about um magic

00:07:23.420 um but in terms of like the magic of of writing I guess specifically um I found that writing

00:07:33.480 you know it's a process that has magical moments you know certainly you know if you can achieve

00:07:38.840 that sort of flow state, you know, where the ego disappears. But a lot of it, I would liken more

00:07:44.640 to something like construction work. So for me, it's really like, it's more like reading,

00:07:51.600 reading is magic, right? That experience is instantaneous and something is being conjured

00:07:57.580 in other people's minds, you know, through your own efforts as the writer and theirs as the reader

00:08:03.100 too. And so the book is where minds are meeting across time and place. And that's the real magic.

00:08:10.100 A book is a place of encounter. So if you're doing it right, you can be making magic by writing a

00:08:18.340 book. But the process of writing it in my experience is sometimes more akin to the other

00:08:24.660 kind of magic. It's a trick in some ways because with fiction anyways, you're trying to make people

00:08:31.040 believe things that aren't, you know, strictly true, but of course there also has to be real

00:08:36.780 truth within it. So it's like both a kind of sleight of hand as well as a kind of bringing

00:08:43.400 forth of deep inner truths, you know, that will resonate with people. And that part of it might

00:08:50.920 be more like craft, which has a really powerful overlap, I think. Yeah, absolutely. Have you had

00:08:57.860 witchy moments a quote-unquote before this moment of realizing you'd written a book about what was

00:09:04.900 happening um yeah I have you know I have had many witchy moments over the years you know moments

00:09:13.900 of like you know spidey senses tingling premonitions of danger or you know other just

00:09:21.720 weird occurrences and I've, I have definitely described myself as low-key psychic do many

00:09:27.740 people, um, before, um, but it's, you know, it's the kind of thing that I feel like in

00:09:37.980 general, I've like moved further away from over the years.

00:09:41.120 Cause I think anyone who has ever like come out as a witch to their friends, you know,

00:09:46.620 as, as I did in high school, um, or, you know, come out as anything that's a kind of fringe

00:09:53.020 belief or practice or outside of the norms of, of society. It's just like, once you've kind of

00:10:00.840 faced that, um, blowback or that judgment, you know, you're just always hesitant, you know, and,

00:10:08.560 and yeah so you kind of observe these these moments and you kind of fell them away and

00:10:18.000 I'm really comfortable being a witch uh in in safe witch circles you know I was like

00:10:27.540 I'm just being my own version of whatever that's gonna be and I think I think a lot about the idea

00:10:34.080 of um like you talked about the the construction worker side of of creativity you know that I love

00:10:41.600 the way you describe that that like um there's an element I think of magic or craft or whatever

00:10:49.400 in that part of it too we were talking to um a witch for another episode who made a really astute

00:10:59.340 observation I think we talk sometimes about how like you have to do the mundane work

00:11:03.420 and then you can do you know a ritual or something and those two pieces go together

00:11:08.060 but you have to do the mundane and her flip on it Loretta the death witch was that nothing is

00:11:15.440 mundane you know that all of that work in her case she's talking about activism in the streets that

00:11:20.960 all of that is part of the magic of making a new world and I think writing a novel that's really

00:11:28.620 full of like love and hope during the global pandemic can help us kind of craft that into

00:11:34.560 the world you know yeah there's that hope in it yeah I think a lot of um a lot of the everyday

00:11:42.300 things that we do you know it those everyday rituals those everyday practices that underpin

00:11:51.960 everything um are important and and you definitely can't you can't finish a novel without a lot of

00:11:58.960 um grunt work unfortunately i wish it were just like magic like literal magic um sadly not

00:12:09.720 oh sadly not yes we're in the process of edits still and definitely not magic lots of just

00:12:17.400 rereading catching typos I think that there's a lot of people who have a book inside of them

00:12:25.880 that they don't know how to get out yeah do you have advice on you know maybe not necessarily

00:12:32.820 writing something prophetic but at least maybe true oh that's a good question I

00:12:39.460 i think something that um is probably relevant to like the writing of my writing of this novel and

00:12:51.100 other things i've written um is to tap into something that you're afraid of i think that

00:12:59.280 writing about our fears can be really you know not just you know therapeutic but like it can

00:13:05.640 be powerful in that there's something there's something there's an emotional charge there

00:13:10.680 you know I think you can end up tapping into something really powerful and something true

00:13:18.440 and it just makes the stakes higher I think for you as the writer if you're if you're trying to

00:13:26.900 write about something that scares you um and I think that whatever it is that's that you're

00:13:34.280 afraid of, there's probably a good reason that you're afraid of that thing, you know? So, you

00:13:38.680 know, if you were to, to write something about climate change, you know, because you're afraid

00:13:43.600 of it, you know, the, the, quite a reasonable fear and, and, and, you know, sadly there would

00:13:49.440 be, you know, quite a good chance of that coming true. But I think when, when you have that kind

00:13:55.260 of like emotional honesty, which, you know, which you kind of have when you're sort of facing your

00:14:00.680 fear by writing about it or you know even transform i don't mean necessarily like writing

00:14:04.360 about like i am scared of this because but just using that using that energy um to fuel your

00:14:11.660 writing um can get can get you to interesting places i think that that's probably super powerful

00:14:21.040 both like uh creatively and therapeutically yeah yeah i think it could be yeah and i mean i think

00:14:30.360 that's part of um when we talk about like using tarot or you know using these kinds of like

00:14:38.420 dev divination tools as therapy that that can be more like um a way of having a conversation with

00:14:46.960 maybe what you're what you're afraid of if you frame it that way are there rituals or practices

00:14:53.180 that you use to kind of I don't know get acquainted with fear with fear specifically

00:15:02.760 because I I feel like um I am so numb from the last years you know I've talked about this before

00:15:12.740 but like I've just been like so afraid and um and I know that sort of a a characteristic of trauma

00:15:22.820 is that you don't start you you will sort of be in this frozen state you won't start to feel the

00:15:29.320 trauma until you're safe and I think that that's kind of coming for a lot of us that there's a

00:15:34.340 little bit of change of safety yeah change in presidents yeah you know that's it's interesting

00:15:42.380 like I sort of feel like part of the way that I've been coping with the pandemic

00:15:49.040 um has been to kind of somewhat like somewhat like enable robot mode a little bit like

00:15:59.320 all the feelings are are tapped down you know it's just like okay well I'm just gonna do my

00:16:05.100 thing I'm just gonna do this this and this and you know it's like there's no um there's no space

00:16:12.660 for those emotions to happen because you can sense they're not going to be like productive

00:16:16.440 of, you know, they're not going to help you. Um, and I would say that I would have probably

00:16:21.580 to a certain extent that has been like a running theme, you know, in my life. And, and certainly

00:16:29.400 I, I was definitely raised in an environment with a lot of fear and have had, I have like,

00:16:38.020 I'm a pretty fearful person in general, I guess, like I'm just a timid, you know, physically timid,

00:16:43.760 you know a person and risk averse person I guess would probably be the way to put that

00:16:49.700 um like I'm nervous in a car like I don't I don't drive you know so it's like even if I'm a passenger

00:16:57.920 in a car I'm like you know I'm like gripping the handle like that you hang dry cleaning on or

00:17:03.620 whatever um so yeah in terms of like your rituals are maybe less about like getting in touch with

00:17:12.000 fear and more about a healthy creative relationship with fear yeah I mean I think a creative

00:17:19.020 relationship with fear is probably like the most productive thing I can I can do with it personally

00:17:25.140 and I like in some ways it feels like repressing the fears that I have is is like the only way to

00:17:33.000 deal with them, like the only way to be a functioning person. But I think other people

00:17:42.320 could probably like, I actually like what you said about the tarot in terms of that as being

00:17:48.180 a conversation. Like, I think that's a useful tool for conversation with yourself, like with

00:17:53.980 things you're trying to work out or, you know, I think it's even interesting from a story point of

00:17:59.960 you um potentially you know if you're working with characters um it can be interesting in that way

00:18:09.000 um certainly like a ritual that I use to self-soothe which is I think a very common

00:18:17.640 you know secular ritual um but one which is actually pretty witchy is like the hot bath

00:18:24.360 with um you know candles salts oils like it's all there it's like a big potion that you are like

00:18:34.020 immersing yourself into um and which is very soothing um something that we all need and

00:18:41.920 deserve you know like yeah I think um a useful concept around this full moon can just well you

00:18:52.280 know it's a morning moon so if there's something that you're mourning and giving yourself permission

00:18:56.920 to do that is a good idea and then it can also be good magic at this time to get rid of something

00:19:07.420 even if you're just going to clean a drawer that's a good that's a good practice for right now so

00:19:12.940 um and that's something I'm gonna just continue to try to carry from my

00:19:19.000 COVID terror coping mechanism yeah like just lovingly dust one thing that's a good idea

00:19:27.880 that's what I got today

00:19:29.260 oh man thank you so much for being here with us it feels like soothing even just even though

00:19:40.260 we're talking about fear and anxiety I'm a very anxious person too um and all of this

00:19:46.840 this work has been helpful for me and just in writing especially just being able to talk about

00:19:51.900 it um and I love reading your book so so much I I hope more of our readers can discover more of

00:20:01.280 your work beyond this novel um through our conversation and finding and following you

00:20:07.240 um can you let people know how they can find you and follow you and pay you to do things

00:20:12.480 paid right by your book i don't know what sure yeah well i guess i'm online at salimanawas.com

00:20:21.600 i finally cracked and got a website and um i'm on twitter and you know i would really recommend

00:20:30.360 if you were gonna seek out songs for the end of the world to do it at your local independent

00:20:35.100 bookstore yeah we love our local just got a great big box from drawn and quarterly for my

00:20:43.300 kid's second birthday and that again drenched me in the magic of books just getting a book

00:20:50.760 for older than a two-year-old oh yeah yay and drawn and quarterly is my preferred bookstore

00:20:57.260 that's our home base in montreal um yeah thanks again um and thanks for your

00:21:07.140 your beautiful book and spending this time with us thanks for having me

00:21:11.340 don't forget to go to foxglovefarm.com and use offer code missing witches

Missing Witches - November 30, 2020

WF Saleema Nawaz： Songs for the End of the World

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