Poog with Kate Berlant and Jacqueline Novak - REMIX： The Ego Loves to Seek Pt. 2

00:00:00.880 Hi, I'm Kate Berlant.

00:00:02.340 I'm Jacqueline Novak.

00:00:03.440 And this is POOG, an ongoing conversation about wellness between two obsessive friends.

00:00:08.160 Two untameable intellects.

00:00:09.940 This is our hobby. 0.93

00:00:10.780 This is our hell.

00:00:11.640 This is our naked desire for free products.

00:00:13.960 This is POOG.

00:00:21.840 Did they, did someone ask us about DreamWork?

00:00:24.160 Did we do that?

00:00:25.540 The only podcast I listen to consistently,

00:00:28.000 Recently, I feel like I need to get into some serious dream work.

00:00:30.680 And I was wondering if you have any recommendations for professionals I can work with.

00:00:33.680 I think Kate does Jungian analysis.

00:00:35.300 Does that include dream work?

00:00:37.160 I know Kate has been getting into yoga nidra.

00:00:39.380 I'm not sure if you have experienced intense night terrors after yoga nidra, Kate.

00:00:43.800 Wow.

00:00:44.260 That is something I experienced recently and it really rocked me.

00:00:46.900 Don't tell that to Kate Berlant.

00:00:48.460 She's going to get scared.

00:00:49.620 Okay.

00:00:50.500 I've been having various sleep phenomena, sleepwalking and talking, lucid dreaming,

00:00:55.360 hypnagogic hallucinations all my life and I feel like I need to get serious about exploring my

00:01:00.380 subconscious in a safer more controlled way I've always been so curious about dreams and would

00:01:05.260 possibly love to incorporate more of that material into my work because I am of course a poet and a

00:01:09.540 writer if there are no if there are no professionals you know of maybe some books or methods you can

00:01:13.820 recommend yeah sorry if that question was too long again I just wanted to say how much I love

00:01:19.200 you and thank you for speaking to us every week thank you we love you Claire we love you I'm

00:01:24.420 looking up right now so robert johnson is a union guy and i wouldn't be surprised if he has yeah

00:01:30.000 yeah here it is folks in her book in her book in her work using dreams and active imagination for

00:01:35.640 personal growth so i want to say i read the first 70 pages was transported put it down or picked it

00:01:40.460 up again yeah so i'd recommend that robert johnson any of the union yeah you know got people who like

00:01:49.240 write about you know i mean if you haven't read women run with the wolves get in there

00:01:54.120 she's a union so i think reading that book will just open who wrote that again clarissa pinkola

00:01:59.660 sds yeah it rocked um i should add that i'm sure i've added it before but it's yeah it's it's it's

00:02:08.800 a bedside it's a lifelong you know what i mean it's um i really yeah i i i have not read it

00:02:16.340 but i know it's a beloved it's a beloved one

00:02:19.120 and it's like you try to go like to add to the shop and it's like oh they're they're linking us

00:02:26.160 to macy's selling it you know what i mean it's like oh yeah this is where i totally where i'm 0.84

00:02:32.260 just like they're not ordering it for macy's here comes the fucking amazon link you know what i mean 0.76

00:02:35.420 it's just tough i know i'll do a different approach you know what's that site that does 0.89

00:02:39.740 the independent books oh honey ace books they're owned by amazon there's no getting away yeah yeah

00:02:44.920 But there's got to be getting away, right?

00:02:46.780 Bookshop.org?

00:02:48.320 I don't know.

00:02:49.040 Give that a shot.

00:02:50.780 And then what's the Robert Johnson?

00:02:53.140 Inner work.

00:02:54.460 Have I talked about a book called Buy Back Your Time that I'm completely taken with?

00:02:59.500 But I think we should get into AMA because I don't have forever because I have to go pick up a car.

00:03:03.680 We are in AMA.

00:03:05.440 All right.

00:03:06.260 But yes, I do believe that Jungian therapists or Jungian psychologists will do dream work.

00:03:12.820 and if you find someone who does they will but you could also do as young as young did and just

00:03:18.980 dive into your interior boldly that's the thing you don't need yeah i would say that is that is

00:03:25.480 the way and well you and i'm sorry but often the only dream work you could say i'm really doing is 0.84

00:03:30.440 writing down my fucking dreams and thinking about yeah you know my big theory he'll love this because 0.84

00:03:35.720 it's the lazy approach dreaming is the work yes i've told you okay oh no no no literally that the 0.99

00:03:41.680 dreaming like that they're not these messages being coded and you need a book to figure about

00:03:46.760 or even yourself no no yeah exactly that what about the actual experience of of dreaming is

00:03:52.780 the process of making something conscious is it is etc and that yeah you know anyway but yeah yeah

00:04:00.980 the dream is the work but i i but maybe read memories dreams and reflections okay

00:04:06.560 Young talking about his own life experience.

00:04:15.620 The last time I remember I had an eye twitch that wasn't like this because they do say stress can

00:04:20.600 bring it on. They sure do. And sure. There's been emotional stresses, of course. And I remember the

00:04:24.940 last time not to be too Hollywood about it, but I had an eye twitch leading up to when I was taping

00:04:29.880 my special in 2019. Yeah. And I was like, okay, well, I guess there is like emotional stress

00:04:34.540 that's causing this. Like that maybe I'm not fully, you know, what's fascinating that we

00:04:39.760 actually do have a subconscious. This is what I'm starting to realize. You could text your daughter

00:04:43.720 or get off of caffeine. No, just that my brazen attitudes that I know myself, like shadow stuff,

00:04:48.960 subconscious. I know it. No, Kate, there are things that you do that you actually cannot

00:04:53.860 understand. Like my, the arrogance of my belief that I somehow have knowledge of my own subconscious.

00:05:00.200 And this is what my life is about right now. It's actually mining that material. Like the eye

00:05:03.880 twitch right oh there could be subconscious there could be material that I'm sifting through on a

00:05:09.760 level that I can't consciously acknowledge and my brazen attitude that I know what's going on

00:05:17.040 no no no that I know by knowing the word subconscious yeah you think because you sign

00:05:21.840 up for Jungian okay therapy and you think because you're familiar and accept the fact that like yeah

00:05:28.060 this is the thing you're like well clearly it's an unconscious like clearly it's my unconscious or

00:05:32.380 my subconscious desire to that was like the freud young distinction i think freud said unconscious

00:05:37.220 yeah you said subconscious i think because it's like down there and it's conscious it's not not

00:05:42.620 conscious it's just sub this this consciousness right but it was like like yeah like we always

00:05:47.320 think like oops that was clearly like or clearly like unconsciously i was uh like didn't want him

00:05:52.740 to come over and so you know and it's like you knew you didn't want to go over like like if it's

00:05:57.560 truly the shadow you cannot see that which you do not wish to see you do not see so exactly i mean

00:06:05.260 the only dignity around that is to acknowledge that there's unconscious stuff the moment that 0.99

00:06:09.440 you try to go like i know what it is and here's what it is you've made yourself a fool because 0.96

00:06:15.020 you're doing what cannot be done no and i've lived i've operated in that i've been like 0.94

00:06:21.020 no i know the issues i know the stuff i know the shadow stuff i know the stuff lurking and it's like 0.95

00:06:26.200 we move through our lives and there is shit that we fucking cannot see that is our behavior is 0.51

00:06:32.020 structured around right it's fascinating anyway so i'm trying to kind of get into that stuff and 0.98

00:06:36.380 the eye twitch could be due to subconscious material that i have not allowed to surface

00:06:41.660 to the conscious um i dreamt of an owl oh yeah this is good because i think it had a are you

00:06:49.540 ready third eye my dreams have been my dream journaling now in the morning

00:06:55.960 there's so much longer the density of the dreams interesting

00:06:59.800 a hag wrote something very sweet um saying that their father recently passed away and that they

00:07:14.020 were they had a close relationship surrounding dream analysis so sorry for your loss oh my god

00:07:19.360 and this hag is asking about if there are any Jungian approaches to dream analysis that have

00:07:26.580 stuck out or um any tools or tricks um that's beautiful that your father and you were connected

00:07:35.100 in dreams I would say that means that you can definitely still have a relationship through your

00:07:39.080 dreams. Um, and I think, first of all, I'm very curious in this, this union life, the podcast

00:07:48.240 does have a dream school that they, I purchased, but then you can take these seminars. I'm very

00:07:54.620 curious about it. I would not say that I'm any kind of expert in dream analysis. I'll say that

00:08:01.540 what i do is write down my dreams with varying degrees of you know discipline around that uh

00:08:10.460 but i i will say once you pay attention to your dreams more and you write them down daily they

00:08:15.060 become more vivid you're able to remember them more so and the union exactly approach would say

00:08:21.320 this is a conversation you're having and the things about what the union approach to dreams

00:08:26.140 that i really respond to are first of all that dreams are not to be taken literally but they

00:08:31.100 are to be taken seriously and then this persistent idea in Jungian analysis and everything is that

00:08:37.960 there's something in you that knows you better than you know yourself that there is some like

00:08:41.980 inner wisdom and the psyche is always trying to direct you toward that inner wisdom uh so

00:08:50.300 very good I mean the other thing that I would say that is what I cling to um is really just

00:08:59.420 the idea of like the different symbols and parts and figures in the dream being

00:09:09.340 fractured elements of the psyche and that and shadow elements and whatever and that like

00:09:18.420 when you embrace them a transformation occurs and like it's the othering that is the

00:09:23.920 issue right like the the complex the split off thing so to that end if you're able to remember

00:09:31.940 it i have found that literally and it was a piece of advice my father gave me um you see the thing

00:09:39.700 that's chasing you in the dream or the scary thing and you literally instead of running you

00:09:46.180 turn around and like attempt to embrace it right it it transforms and this like it worked my mother

00:09:54.940 did it once you mean if you're in a lucid dream well it's it's sort of like particularly you know

00:10:02.600 it's it's because I don't say I wouldn't say that I like lucid dream but there's that sort

00:10:10.580 of middle ground where you're you're like I think particularly if you have like if you have recurring

00:10:17.720 dreams that have certain scary elements I think sometimes in those there's a kind of oh I'm having

00:10:22.580 this dream again but you forget that that's like I don't know it's like sort of half lucid or

00:10:28.080 something but if like there's something that works with it oh this is the thing like oh right if I see

00:10:32.540 one of these scary birds or there was a thing where it was like about diving into the water

00:10:36.700 like trying not to there are these scary birds above the water and so then i dove into the water

00:10:40.940 sort of remembering this and then they transformed like and then the one time that i embraced i went

00:10:46.960 the witch was knocking at the door and it was like the devils of the door and then i went

00:10:50.660 and i opened the door and i was like why do you have to be like this why can't you just give it

00:10:56.460 up like why i must and then i was like i know she started to like say something and i'm like i know

00:11:01.040 i know you're like you're part of it like you have to exist you are what you are and like

00:11:05.740 she was kind of like yeah like what's wrong sorry i got scared the devil the door yeah

00:11:11.740 i just realized it is another world no it when you really start to think about i mean

00:11:22.820 the way we just accept dreaming we're like you're born you dream and it's like wait well go back

00:11:29.020 what dreams are and i i gotta go i gotta get a young and young and therapist now i mean i really

00:11:35.100 i really do too i'm humiliated i'm i'm rereading memory streams and reflections and still have not

00:11:40.720 gotten myself a youngian therapist are you humiliated are you aware at all the work of

00:11:44.180 james hollis he's a really brilliant youngian psychotherapist frankly sounds familiar i'm

00:11:49.140 humiliated once again it's really wonderful books i want to recommend to the to the poog listeners

00:11:54.520 his book creating a life it's really beautiful and he talks a lot about just like the first half

00:11:58.780 of your life you're just kind of you've just it's kind of a mistake like you're just inheriting the

00:12:02.940 symbols and the patterns of everyone before you it's like the first half of your life is just

00:12:06.620 imprint you're you're just you're just going through the motions of what you've been taught

00:12:09.860 and being socialized and your primary caretakers and of course your genes the zeitgeist into which

00:12:14.200 you're born yes but that basically at your midlife point if you get to their midlife meaning i think

00:12:19.540 like you know your mid-30s or whatever right it's like then you actually have the the potential to

00:12:24.140 kind of break open new patterns and go okay what do i actually want to do is that what individuate

00:12:28.060 means i'm sorry i've enjoyed it twice to say it is that individuation i feel like it might be

00:12:32.420 misuse that term all the time i'm not sure i mean i think individuation is being primarily

00:12:36.560 it's the freudian idea right of individuating from the mother the infant the infant like looking at

00:12:40.620 its foot and being like how could my foot be in my mouth and it's something about it's something

00:12:46.300 about that like the infant recognizing its own body as not as being separate from the mother i

00:12:50.280 was just well oh right right right and i think there's also something about like i don't know 0.96

00:12:54.160 my cousin always references the shit in the bathtub being a big moment i think psychologically 0.99

00:12:58.460 something about the creation of the shit and going that was in me now it's outside of me it's 0.99

00:13:03.080 like an abjection like recognizing yes it's like this moment of how could that be so close to me 0.95

00:13:08.040 inside of me and yet now it's outside of me and it came from me never remember abjection and that

00:13:13.360 which is so close that it must be pushed away that which which is so unbearably close it must

00:13:17.440 be radically jettisoned julia kristeva jettisoned is huge for you i love jettison i used to talk

00:13:22.860 i'm looking over here where's my objection book yeah julia kristeva

00:13:25.940 i was watching a film that i was connected to deeply yeah i was watching human drama play out

00:13:39.660 on a screen i was watching the face of an actor yeah contain the human experience and express it

00:13:45.220 and metabolize it and give it form and i went oh my god and had an epiphany about my own life

00:13:53.360 and I was brought and I was like, I mean, I almost had to do deep breathing. I had to like

00:13:59.680 calm myself down. The interiority. That experience can only happen in there.

00:14:04.680 And that is theater. That is it. And it was like, oh my God. Right.

00:14:10.040 I'm like, my mind is going like, wait, but like on my side, on like a bedroom pillow I've brought

00:14:14.920 to the couch with one hand in my almond flour chips. I'm like, have I, you know, sitting in a

00:14:22.480 theater okay being forced to experience your interiority while sitting up dressed and in

00:14:32.220 public right yeah in darkness yet in darkness right i mean it's actually like so moving that

00:14:41.780 people would gather and fit and just like just face a single direction okay let's gather that

00:14:48.680 It's a single direction.

00:14:50.400 Okay.

00:14:50.920 And put themselves before something created by another.

00:14:54.700 Okay.

00:14:55.360 Give themselves over and say, take me away or take me deeper.

00:15:00.680 You know, whatever.

00:15:01.360 Yeah.

00:15:01.740 I will go.

00:15:02.380 I mean, here's another thing.

00:15:04.080 Common term, willing suspension of disbelief.

00:15:07.240 I'm crying at the very idea.

00:15:09.380 Take a minute of that.

00:15:10.520 I'm crying.

00:15:12.400 Suspension.

00:15:13.520 The willing suspension of disbelief.

00:15:15.700 Oh God. 0.99

00:15:16.280 I will willfully suspend my disbelief that that is, you know, that that is not a real woman experiencing.

00:15:25.680 I mean, like, you know, it's also moving like the people, like I think that sometimes like that actors, whatever people creating work, whatever, like also still are able.

00:15:35.760 And of course they are to like an actor still watches a movie.

00:15:39.340 Yeah.

00:15:39.900 Even there, they're still willing to suspend anyway, but just, yeah, willing suspension, right?

00:15:44.280 Going, going, yeah, let's go with it.

00:15:46.280 I mean, to feel... See, here's the thing. The train coming at the audience, that classic thing,

00:15:52.140 right? And like everyone like diving and ducking out of the way because they weren't used to the

00:15:55.400 medium. It's like, yes, you know, like that's... But that's like almost about... That's not like

00:16:05.540 to follow along and care. Are you kidding?

00:16:10.460 to care about a character like winning the thing it wants to win or something like

00:16:16.820 a crowd erupting into applause because a fake character like because it's modeled a version

00:16:23.880 of humanity that's possible like yes it could go down that way it doesn't matter that it hasn't

00:16:28.740 because it you know myth is always happening myth is myth is always happening would you say myth is

00:16:33.720 always here okay there's a quote it is a myth is something that never happened but is always 0.96

00:16:39.500 happening oh my there it is holy shit i know i think i've mentioned it on poop six years ago 0.78

00:16:45.160 i've no you haven't i've never heard that uttered and we can only access ourselves through others 0.95

00:16:50.080 sorry wait through others yes okay no no i'm just going is this cape relant pushing community again

00:16:57.260 because i was like i was like waiting like we can only experience ourselves

00:17:01.300 or something and i was like others meaning a myth others meaning a film others meaning

00:17:05.880 a person, a person in an orange sweater passing you on the street. What's their life? What does

00:17:13.240 the eye contact with them mean for me and for them? You added in a for them. Sorry.

00:17:19.740 Like it came to you late. It came to you late.

00:17:29.060 I like Googled like the word self-reliance, like in the fucking middle of the night, 0.66

00:17:33.180 a couple weeks back and then was like what popped up you know immediately served uh ralph waldo

00:17:40.120 emerson self-reliance that essay which has i'm sick of him but keep going but literally have

00:17:47.400 you read so because it has a couple quotes in it that i've clung to over the years i know i'm

00:17:52.300 revisiting the thing yeah like what like what like hunger for the quotes okay let me see if i can pull

00:17:57.080 them up because i have a sloppy version of them and then let's see um where did i download it

00:18:03.860 classic ibook ibooks scenario reading a book called the talent code greatness isn't born

00:18:09.180 it's grown here's how okay self-reliance on other essays i'll explain why i was reading that too

00:18:15.520 bookmarks and highlights okay self-reliance oh yeah all right you know what i think i've really

00:18:23.100 gotten from you what all right you're you're you saying all right oh really i really noticed i do

00:18:27.980 that constantly and i do that did i get that from you all right like alone like i'll be like doing

00:18:33.520 things i'm like okay all right oh all right i hear it that's funny i don't know all right so

00:18:40.180 i'm gonna read you a good solid two did i just do it yeah okay i'm gonna read you good solid 0.79

00:18:45.300 two paragraphs go okay because i think it's fucking worth it here we go all right and stop 0.68

00:18:49.320 me if you if you space if you're driving pullover okay so this is him giving an anecdote that leads 0.83

00:18:58.720 into our idea okay i read the other day some verses written by an eminent painter which were

00:19:03.940 original and not conventional slow down okay yeah no let's let's let's okay so i tried to because

00:19:10.800 it's written in weird language in that way i'm trying to give you the vibe okay but so let's go

00:19:15.300 piece by piece. We got it all the time in the world. It's poop. You know what I mean? Yeah.

00:19:21.120 I read the other day, some verses written by an eminent painter. Got it. Which were original

00:19:25.380 and not conventional. Okay. Okay. By the way, the acting that you're doing really helping me

00:19:31.080 metabolize the material. Okay. That's what I'm trying to do. Okay. Act it out. Act it out. Okay.

00:19:35.860 Okay. Are you ready? Okay. The soul always hears an admonition in such lines. Let the subject be

00:19:42.260 what it may. Okay. Okay. So I read some good verses by an eminent painter that were original

00:19:49.180 and the soul here is in, you know, original lines like that, a latent admonition, right?

00:19:56.620 Yeah. No matter what the subject is. Okay. Now I'm translating in full. Okay. But the sentiment

00:20:01.520 they instill is of more value than any thought they may contain. Okay. Okay. And it's still just

00:20:06.660 setting up the sentiment. And here's what it is. I'd say to believe your own thought, to believe

00:20:12.060 that what is true for you in your private heart is true for all men that is genius oh fuck yeah 0.99

00:20:17.440 okay now i don't know this sit with it here we go honey okay okay speak your latent conviction 0.98

00:20:23.620 and it shall be the universal sense yeah okay for the inmost in due time becomes the outmost

00:20:29.520 yep yep and our first thought is rendered back to us by the trumpets of the last judgment okay

00:20:34.620 whatever whatever okay i don't have to cling too heavy to this okay because we're getting to the

00:20:38.320 part that's key familiar as the voice of the mind is to each the highest merit we ascribe to

00:20:43.780 moses plato and milton wait go back i spaced i spaced i was thinking about christ i didn't and

00:20:48.940 i my acting was fucked because i went on line ready suddenly i was like christ judas i was 0.74

00:20:52.960 like i need i need to learn more about judas yeah go back wait is that they said it not at 0.99

00:20:56.800 not books and tradition and spoke not what men what they thought okay so wait n-a-u-g-h-t

00:21:06.340 not like as in nary few okay i think anyway it doesn't matter it works okay you ready

00:21:15.240 so he's saying saying that we ascribe this genius to them when in fact they're just speaking the

00:21:21.220 universal familiar interior mind with courage kind of i think okay so we ascribe the highest

00:21:26.460 merit to moses plato and milton and they they set at not books and traditions and spoke not what men

00:21:32.060 but what they thought okay okay so here we go this is actually the part i highlighted okay and

00:21:38.200 we'll stop okay but we'll stop as needed okay actually let's let it wash over once because

00:21:43.100 do a wash over then the meaning might come about versus trying to go word by word absolutely let

00:21:49.040 it wash let's try this once a man should learn to detect and watch that gleam of light which

00:21:54.540 flashes across his mind from within more than the luster of the firmament of bards and sages

00:22:00.360 yet he dismisses without notice his thought because it is his oh okay in every this is where 0.79

00:22:10.700 it is this is what fucking are you ready yeah in every work of genius we recognize our own 0.69

00:22:16.960 rejected thoughts huge huge i know this line i know that line okay they come back to us with a 0.98

00:22:23.020 certain alienated majesty i know i got this line i have chills okay yeah that's the line that i

00:22:29.420 always, okay. That I've probably brought up on poop before. I have an anecdote here. Okay. So

00:22:33.660 great works of art have no more affecting lesson for us than this. They teach us to abide by our

00:22:40.420 spontaneous impression. Okay. This is actually huge. And I'm going to, cause this is the next

00:22:44.180 level. Okay. But let me just, let me say it again. So great works of art have no more affecting

00:22:48.080 lesson for us than this. They teach us to abide by our spontaneous impression with good humored

00:22:53.220 inflexibility. Then most when the whole cry of voices is on the other side. Okay.

00:22:59.420 good-humored inflexibility.

00:23:01.640 Love that.

00:23:02.500 Love that.

00:23:02.700 That's cool.

00:23:03.780 Because that's like the not saying no to the rejected thought, right?

00:23:07.840 And then here it goes.

00:23:09.820 Otherwise, I'm translating because it says else.

00:23:12.760 Okay, but else tomorrow a stranger will say with masterly good sense

00:23:16.800 precisely what we have thought and felt all the time.

00:23:20.080 And we shall be forced to take with shame our opinion from another.

00:23:24.560 Our own opinion from another.

00:23:26.260 Our own.

00:23:26.500 I left a lot of word out.

00:23:27.880 Our own opinion from another. 0.96

00:23:28.840 fuck brutal this is good this is really good so by the way i'm loving is that it i'm loving that 0.97

00:23:34.580 there's a little more and i do remember that alienated all of this well this is just what 0.98

00:23:39.140 it's reminding me of is in a kabbalistic tradition yes there's an idea when in like

00:23:45.040 rabbinical kabbalah when they talk about reincarnation um because i've been on a 0.92

00:23:49.200 i've been on a real reincarnation kick um well here we go okay well here we fucking go

00:23:54.880 I mean but one thing I'll say in Kabbalah there's this idea it's like you don't say you believe 0.57

00:24:02.280 it's not I believe in reincarnation I believe in God or something it's knowing it's what you

00:24:08.100 already know it's not belief it's knowing right so it's like knowing it's like what you're what

00:24:13.200 you're saying with that with what you just read it's like that internal the recognition of what's 0.99

00:24:19.220 come before which is what wisdom is and they say when you're reading a book and you go oh fuck I 0.85

00:24:23.600 love this recognition you knew it yeah it's what you already know yes and that's what to say belief

00:24:30.080 and i'm just interpreting but like belief creates a separation between you and an idea right it

00:24:36.060 actually the idea is like you know if someone says like if i look at you jack i'm like yeah 0.88

00:24:40.380 you were a fucking you were on ships in your past life yeah in like in a past life you were 0.98

00:24:45.460 on a goddamn ship you go yeah right it's not like you're because it strikes you know that 1.00

00:24:51.260 yeah i mean and it only it only i mean yeah and the evidence continues to mount and the evidence 0.99

00:24:57.720 continues to mount but i like the idea of um attaining wisdom as or whatever as as just

00:25:03.660 knowing a recognition and knowing right as a as a returning to a knowing exactly return to knowing

00:25:08.800 not some kind of like not a belief in something outside yourself yeah and here he's talking about

00:25:13.680 great works of art right and he's saying like they remind us that we already knew you know and

00:25:19.840 i love it that's so brutal what did he say you have to endure your idea in someone else's voice

00:25:25.420 or you have to take it from tomorrow a stranger will say with masterly good sense precisely what

00:25:29.600 we have thought and felt all the time and we shall be forced to take with shame our own opinion from 0.97

00:25:34.140 another horrifying right damn damn that is like there's also a pleasure in that right there's a 0.97

00:25:39.440 pleasure there like when you're talking to someone i think not when you ever articulated something 0.99

00:25:47.500 i don't know maybe it's cadence over content we talk with direct consumer marketing yeah

00:25:52.960 you just kind of roll out the thing and then the other person replies and you i don't know

00:25:59.740 i think i don't think it's always full tragedy there are different layers of it um one side

00:26:07.080 every pleasure is pain right and then you know secondarily you know there's a time in every

00:26:13.920 men's education and it's funny how i i get a distinct pleasure from reading these old 0.98

00:26:21.100 fucking works where they talk of humankind as man and mankind i get a fucking kick out of that 0.95

00:26:29.240 there's something like i enjoy walking around with like a notion about like or i shall be forced to 0.99

00:26:35.300 take from another man like i i think i don't know i guess what i'm responding to is a common thing

00:26:41.960 would be that oh you know I'm reading that and I should be going what about women but I get this

00:26:47.220 pleasure about it sort of of course maybe it's like I think I'm pulling something not intended

00:26:51.640 for me and like haha I am I don't know I you know this has always been a thing but one face

00:26:57.580 one character one makes an impression of another none of the sculptures the memory is never

00:27:00.780 I'm hungry God will not have his work made manifest by cowards I'm saying that to lure you in

00:27:10.520 okay well that's the next concept yeah which is just you know there's a time in every man's

00:27:16.200 education when he arrives at the conviction the envy is ignorance imitation is suicide etc he

00:27:20.560 must take himself for better or worse as his portion right imitation is suicide that was

00:27:25.340 something i remember writing down as a youth yeah and then look how it served you you know

00:27:30.360 though the wide universe is full of good no kernel of nourishing corn can come to him

00:27:35.220 but through his toil bestowed on that plot of ground which is given him to till right not

00:27:40.020 the same thank you okay hold on the nights start getting a little cooler oh man is there nothing

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00:32:43.440 you. Do you want to know my other humongous piece of wisdom that I literally like arrived at

00:32:54.920 independently? Now, I can't even wait for you to get to the end of the sentence. I know, I know.

00:32:58.400 Give it now. Give it now. OK, you ready? I got to set it up because if I have spit it out wrong,

00:33:02.420 you know let me get it right let me get it right okay and i'm gonna have to explain after i won't

00:33:06.640 explain before you're lucky okay hold on i'm just working it out quietly if you can hear the whispers

00:33:11.720 i heard the word decision so i know i'm in okay ready are you ready okay yes okay so you're trying

00:33:24.900 to make a decision you're struggling right is this the right decision is that the right decision 0.98

00:33:28.740 which one's the right decision okay no you make it okay i already fucked up no you didn't no you 0.92

00:33:33.920 didn't no no no because there's a setup okay which is there's no such thing as the right decision 0.97

00:33:38.420 you make a decision and then you make it the right one yeah yeah okay no it's not hitting you

00:33:45.260 it's not hitting you okay and that's okay okay no no it is hitting me no no i think it's not but

00:33:52.380 but let me no but let me now take you through no this is like you're if i seem unfazed it's just

00:33:57.660 because this is like the deep work that i'm doing in therapy all the time of like whatever decision

00:34:01.820 you make there's no mistakes you're there no totally like it's i don't need the reaction on

00:34:06.060 this one i know it's genius okay i know i know this one is but the realization for me that what

00:34:11.640 it is because it's an illusion that there's a perfect choice right or that there is a faded

00:34:16.520 true one right so if it replied to the mushrooms right it would be like it's not either the

00:34:23.040 mushroom mousse or the melange of roasted mushrooms okay it's not that one of those

00:34:27.120 was the right decision the whole time right we're gonna choose one and we're gonna we're gonna enjoy

00:34:32.880 it and we're gonna make it that it was right that is freeing yeah also because it's almost the

00:34:37.920 question of fate comes in here of like you were always gonna do if you do it it was fated right

00:34:44.920 right right so choose to do it almost it's like when you're having the anxiety one i mean i'm

00:34:49.920 saying you but you know one it's almost like you're in this fantasy that there's a you that

00:34:54.340 you are less than that you're subservient to and are you living up to the fate that like the kate

00:34:58.840 that gets it right makes the decision right and then are you dancing the steps that the fate

00:35:05.500 version of you is meant to dance brilliant yes but i i'm trying to think because the mushrooms

00:35:09.880 would be a bad example of a for me the best and most useful actual example of that principle

00:35:17.580 is that the limitations created by a decision and that's why we're afraid of decisions right

00:35:24.160 because you're about to be limited right yeah you look sad what's wrong no i'm just thinking

00:35:27.940 about what you're saying because it's true it's like there's loss on either side right there's

00:35:31.100 loss on either side however limitations also provide a path okay like so like i remember

00:35:38.080 having this moment where i was like creates freedom or or literally the way like it actually

00:35:43.340 reveals the way. But the example was at the time, I remember when I got a job working at an ad

00:35:49.700 agency in order to support myself so that I could live in an apartment in New York City and pursue

00:35:54.660 stand-up comedy. Literal Peggy. You are Peggy. Yes. Okay. Being like, here's your basket of

00:36:00.140 kisses. Remember? That's when they realized her genius. Yeah. And I remember walking around there

00:36:07.580 because I would have this crisis because people would tell me that a good day job was going to

00:36:12.440 stop me from right you know you're going to be comfortable you're not going to go after it so

00:36:16.880 then you know it's almost like oh it literally like you're like the only thing you can do while

00:36:20.560 pursuing art is waiting tables like you know what I mean it's like that's almost like there was a

00:36:24.700 stigma against like a proper nine to five or something right whatever it doesn't matter but

00:36:29.480 I would agonize at the time about this choice and this decision and and being in the ad agency and

00:36:34.220 looking around and that offending me because it wasn't what I felt like like you know I should

00:36:39.000 be doing or something. Right. But it was like, I decided to do this job. This is boring. It's not

00:36:44.760 this. We have to cut this. But it's just like, all right, let's say my path to doing comedy.

00:36:50.200 If I go by the you make a decision, you make the right one. How do I make the fact that I'm

00:36:53.780 working at an ad agency all day long? How do I make the thing I can't change? Not just neutral,

00:36:59.740 but an asset. Yeah, arguably me writing a book about depression was me trying to decide that

00:37:07.580 the two years and I could have been four. It could have been one and a half. I'm really not clear on

00:37:11.880 it. I guess I'll have to ask my parents how long I was like there working through it. Like it was

00:37:16.240 like, OK, I fell out the game. I fell out the game. Everyone thought I was done for. OK. And I was

00:37:22.080 like, I was like, all right, well, I'm going to sell. I'm going to sell a depression book. And

00:37:28.220 then like this time was research. Yes. Instead of I lost time to depression and that's it. It's

00:37:34.980 like we alchemize you can in theory and theory is where i live so who cares right yeah but like

00:37:41.060 in theory and this is what fills me and amps me up and makes me feel like i didn't lose okay is

00:37:46.600 is like you know um okay how can i turn this into the only way it could have gone like almost like

00:37:53.840 a trick and this is a little like manifesti secret stuff but like whatever is almost like to imagine

00:37:58.820 yourself in the future going so like let's say something like totally upsetting happens right

00:38:03.680 it's like or i don't know what's a good example it would just be like um okay what am i gonna 0.56

00:38:08.660 this is stupid but i don't want to use that example let me think like in the future okay

00:38:14.380 i guess this this is a fine example it'd be like pandemic quarantine right i'm here i'm stuck in 0.99

00:38:20.240 my house and like you would imagine yourself in the future saying the following words well

00:38:24.100 you know actually quarantine was when it all changed for me yes okay well this is what

00:38:30.020 everyone's spinning right now picture myself saying that in the future right and then i try

00:38:34.680 to see what comes next yeah or i used to try to do this with like breakthroughs like almost like 0.61

00:38:38.880 okay what if i want to have a major breakthrough in my fucking art or something today right i almost

00:38:44.980 go like all right let me imagine myself next week or next year going so there i was i was in the 0.94

00:38:49.400 middle of recording poog right i was in the middle of recording poog we were talking about this and

00:38:53.260 that and whatever and I glanced at the scrunchie on my arm and I knew it was simple the answer is

00:39:00.300 love or whatever okay I couldn't do it truly for real right then but it's like oh I find that

00:39:05.880 it's effective it really is and then you come up with a way where you're like yeah that could be

00:39:10.820 someone's story this is the other thing is like trying to compare your story to other people it's

00:39:15.760 like at the time I'm working that agency do I require that I find an example of a you know

00:39:21.020 stand up comedian or something or whatever, who worked in that agency. And, you know, at night,

00:39:27.060 it's like, you're asking yourself if your current existence would sound like a believable story. And

00:39:31.940 if so, do you have a chance? And it's like, you can make it so people do this with age, so and so,

00:39:38.180 you know, Sondheim didn't start writing blah, blah, blah, you know, musicals until he was 37.

00:39:42.200 Right. Okay. And that helps people until they're 38. Okay, now they're fucked. It's like,

00:39:47.580 so then you got to go okay well what if i'm the 38 story yeah or the 39 yeah or the 50 why not be

00:39:53.820 the story that gives someone else beautiful the freedom now that's a beautiful way to see the

00:39:59.580 world and to see your own potential and yourself when have you been have you seen you know no way

00:40:06.020 out or no potential to be that model this is no no no thank you okay because i could have come off 0.98

00:40:11.540 like a real blowhard okay uh i could have come out like a goddamn self-help person right because

00:40:16.660 here's the thing one only arrives at the strategies that i just described if one is someone who has 0.98

00:40:25.820 spent a lot of time in their interior mind feeling hopeless let's just say right it's like and this

00:40:32.240 is the thing that this is why the people preaching the self-help stuff like or the girls bouncing off

00:40:37.440 to yoga or whatever like the the believing that they're doing that because because that's what's

00:40:43.160 happening on the inside and it's like no they're doing that because they want to die so they're

00:40:48.880 going like well i could throw myself off the building right now yeah or i could go to a yoga

00:40:53.400 class and see how i feel after that and maybe i won't be in the mood to die so like these are

00:40:59.520 the strategies that like you know how you talk about thinking your way out of like the fantasy

00:41:02.660 of being able to think your way out of anything right that's my religion that i'm now parting

00:41:06.080 with that's me too and it's things like this that are kind of like little tricks that i've developed

00:41:12.220 to get out of these things but i've just relied yeah because i'm almost in a place where i've

00:41:17.120 relied on those tricks so much i called you in a fury needing you to tell me that that it's all

00:41:21.360 fine and what i'm realizing oh but i actually have to make peace with more is that the kind of just

00:41:26.000 like give it up the kind of go with god thing or letting something unfold i mean it's also like

00:41:31.340 control i mean just like i have to i have to because i have always believed deeply i could

00:41:36.600 take my way out of anything and you actually can't but you can't i mean i kind of still think you can

00:41:41.280 But I just mean that like, because the thinking then can just be never ending, right? And you're spiraling and then 24 hours later in the same place. And so I'm kind of right now trying to embrace more letting go of the thinking and trying to even see thinking as my disease that like I have to break free of in order to then just, you know, what?

00:42:00.200 Well, OK, I was raised on thinking. I was raised on, you know, reading self-help books about NLP, Neuro Linguistic Programming, the Tony Robbins, the whatever. Right. So I was from birth positive thinking. OK, one of the first like books I read was As a Man Thinketh. So He Reapeth is the subtitle or the like, you know, the books call in response.

00:42:21.880 and and reading early 20th century like success manuals about like you know you want to make it

00:42:29.160 in the railroad industry or whatever right okay so all these all these go on and on and i'm already

00:42:36.060 a person who lose my head right so that muscle's so overdeveloped and my ability to like think

00:42:40.700 positively that's why me suffering from depression and going on meds and people telling me to like

00:42:44.800 think positively or you need to look at how you're thinking i'm like how dare you let me tell you

00:42:49.820 that okay yeah so thus a big part of my seeking has been realizing it's it's a hall of mirrors in

00:42:57.920 there right yeah because here's the trouble with the brain when you think you've figured it out

00:43:02.160 the way that you never have to feel pain that if i think of things this way right it decays okay

00:43:08.380 because it's it's in the space of the brain which isn't real matter yeah right it doesn't have heft

00:43:12.780 to it so because it's abstract it decays and it floats away it dissolves right and so you can't

00:43:18.460 cling to it in the same way so then the question becomes okay there's no stability to be found in

00:43:23.000 mind there's no stability there so we better find it elsewhere or no peace there or no pleasure

00:43:26.660 there truly yeah so then i decided okay i live in my head i have to now the only thing because i

00:43:32.880 don't see another option but there must be let's try living in my body let's try living in my soul

00:43:38.960 and then it's literally like what soul's huge okay there you go and then and then i would say

00:43:46.200 like you could guess you could say emotions which are like our emotions in the body you know yeah

00:43:51.780 having i mean this body soul this should just be cut because it's too obvious but it's like

00:43:55.200 my body soul and i'm like oh i've been in my mind the whole time yeah it's it's body soul so what

00:44:02.040 does it even mean to go into that because it's i mean this is why i love this i won't go into a

00:44:06.940 lecture on her but carolyn mace and she talks about it and she just is like no one has a

00:44:10.300 relationship with her soul anymore like it's laughed at the very idea i'm getting carolyn

00:44:14.520 mates mix up with louise hey i know you always do really okay okay i know i know sorry sorry

00:44:21.400 you just gently irritated you always do

00:44:25.740 no i thought you'd think it was sweet that i know you i felt oh and i will say another way

00:44:33.960 out of depression of the mind is into caring about trivial things okay and and that's been

00:44:40.280 the path back and that's why i well like what like what like what me is starving for skin care i am

00:44:46.940 with redecavation or organization of getting rid of things i woke up in the night last night like

00:44:52.420 at 3 a.m eyes open being like tomorrow i'm going to go after this drawer you know and pouring it

00:44:57.900 all into that and i really did attack the drawer with with a certain fire today well also and you'll

00:45:03.240 love this if you want to bring your soul into cleaning okay and and i know it can get a little

00:45:07.620 question, well, am I trying to, you know, force you back into the kitchen or whatever? Your soul

00:45:11.400 can be found washing dishes is sort of, but it's like, it's true. Carry water. Yes. Chopped with

00:45:16.380 carry water. Okay. Yeah. My mom has always like said that to me. Typical. Like the woman being

00:45:22.060 like, no, no. Wait, what were you saying? Because there's something more. So you're saying, yeah, 1.00

00:45:25.720 right. You can make cleaning out a single drawer, a symbolic act, a ritual act that you attach to

00:45:34.240 something so let's say you decide that your bottom drawer is like i mean this is a stupid example but 0.81

00:45:39.700 like it's your first chakra okay yeah yeah oh my god this is working i can already feel it working 0.88

00:45:43.900 and then you clean out the drawer and as you do as you remove things from it yes you make it kind

00:45:49.260 of a living meditation oh my god i'm absolutely limp at this and it's like because there's bodily

00:45:57.700 and even mental satisfaction in the act right of just the feeling of a drawer being clean yeah

00:46:04.880 to me that suggests that that ritual would have more of a magical quantum effect

00:46:12.340 because you're tapping into something that the body and mind are connected with i

00:46:18.100 love that and as we all know we've been ripped from ritual and it's the cause of all modern pain

00:46:24.800 i can turn you around you want to hear me do it yeah okay so you have to let go of the running

00:46:35.520 start model okay you have to let go the feeling that that you have to have the runway that you

00:46:40.220 have to have the runway of a perfect morning to lead into the perfect productivity that you're

00:46:44.820 looking to happen without with comfort okay this is huge this is huge are you ready and this is

00:46:49.500 something that i learned in one sense from that book the van gogh blues the artist's path through

00:46:54.520 depression okay yeah yeah it's like you know he he's talking about like not being too precious

00:47:00.600 about you know your your creative path and oh these things have to be like this for me to write

00:47:04.740 and he's like you need to be able and I think this is what he said this is at least how I remember

00:47:08.440 you need to be like on a bench I don't know why I remember it this way I could be wrong but I

00:47:12.100 remember it as like you need to be like on a bench like eating a hot dog and there's like mustard on

00:47:15.320 your fingers and like you still can get down to it and write the idea in your journal painting with

00:47:20.960 the mustard painting with the journaling with the mustard you're saying just like with it stuck on

00:47:25.800 your fingers not like yeah I have to get the mustard off my hand if you wait for the perfect

00:47:29.560 conditions you'll be waiting forever of course yeah and the thrill and then also in another thing

00:47:34.660 in that book how to write a screenplay in 28 days or something 21 days I think Vicki King

00:47:39.460 book I read in high school you know she tells this story about having like diarrhea like being stuck 0.53

00:47:46.060 on the toilet knowing that she could use that as an excuse to like not get her writing done

00:47:50.560 essentially anyone else would accept it but like and it's just you know because i was thinking about

00:47:55.960 this the other day when i was working out i was thinking about like the whole like you're only

00:47:59.040 cheating yourself and how that is never convincing or appealing when anyone says you're only cheating 0.99

00:48:03.620 yourself it's like there's something about it that feels like annoying it's like no fuck you i'm 0.99

00:48:08.580 winning because now i'm relaxing and i'm not doing the sit-up so it's not quite that yeah it doesn't 0.96

00:48:12.680 work but it was this so that phrasing is too loaded but it's like i lost the thread but the

00:48:18.240 point is what i have found is that there's a relief when you give up trying to make it pleasant

00:48:24.620 oh i needed to hear that yeah okay just it's such a fucking relief because you just go and every day

00:48:35.420 i'm going to try to make it pleasant it's never going to stop okay that that instinct's never 0.68

00:48:38.480 going to stop i'm always going to be searching for ways to make it pain-free okay but if you

00:48:42.240 just right now it's five okay yes you had visions for how the day would unfold blah blah blah okay

00:48:48.280 and whatever if you did an hour of work you know on the task you don't want to do yeah and you just 0.99

00:48:54.280 sat down 10 minutes from now or when we get off okay just planted your ass in a spot with a single 0.96

00:49:00.100 you know cup of coffee whatever you need and did it yeah and and set the timer try 20 minutes see 0.99

00:49:06.180 how you feel. I love you. No, no. I have to be honest. Huge. The hour as someone who's, you know,

00:49:12.120 brain is absolutely atrophied from ADD and phone addiction and all of this only recently. I see it.

00:49:20.240 It's a glittering wonder still, but anyway, I'll let you continue. I love you. But, but I, but I

00:49:25.820 only recently realized that even just an hour feels somehow doable that if I actually sit in

00:49:31.660 the office and really do just work solidly for an hour I'm like flooded with euphoria and I feel

00:49:36.780 like I can do anything oh I once went from being literally on the floor I'm probably I don't know

00:49:42.020 if I ever told this story I'm pooped but I went from literally being on the floor yeah sobbing

00:49:46.280 and depression yeah to up at my up at my desk upright in a spotless room I haven't reinvented

00:49:53.500 time okay and some would tell the room was spotless that helps no i made it spotless that

00:50:02.100 was the journey oh i'm sorry okay all right yes i got it so so from lying in a pile on the floor

00:50:08.140 sobbing okay to up right up at a now clean desk um working my way through the problem of time

00:50:15.940 and and you know one wonders was that did i go too high did i soar too high okay but i don't

00:50:23.120 have I not talked about this on on on POOG the the post-its I just said post it yeah but no but

00:50:29.020 I love what you're saying and you've helped me this is something in our friendship that you've

00:50:32.680 continually a theme that continues is you telling me to just like accept that um things aren't easy

00:50:40.420 I don't know that it's like I can't create the pleasurable experience I just love pleasure so

00:50:45.540 much so do I though I don't want I don't want to be mistaken because I spend all my time trying to

00:50:50.620 avoid pain. That's why I know this so well. You know what I mean? Like I make no mistake. I give

00:50:56.400 advice. I struggle to follow. The writing in the morning light. And that's why, because there was

00:51:00.880 a time even on Pooh not so long ago that I was doing this like mornings, right? I was like,

00:51:04.020 it's all the morning. And I was waking up in the morning light and on my face writing. And that

00:51:08.100 was glorious. And it doesn't mean I can't continue that again, but I can't abuse myself for having

00:51:12.440 let go of that schedule. And I can still have a great evening. I already have a boss plan.

00:51:20.620 My bath is going to be my treat after I work for an hour.

00:51:23.920 God, if only there was a way to realize the work as the treat.

00:51:29.900 Well, I realized I'm actually having a lot less dread historic, like right now, for whatever reason I'm having.

00:51:36.100 It's still so hard, but I'm having so much less dread than I've had in the past toward doing this.

00:51:42.600 And guess what?

00:51:43.480 You can think in the bathtub, which I realized the other day.

00:51:46.060 i was in the tub and i was like wait i can think about ideas in here you can choose what you're

00:51:53.340 going to think about yeah yeah it is frustrating when you can't write it down but yeah well i have

00:52:02.140 a little i have a little notepad in our shower waterproof that sticks against the wall it's

00:52:07.040 called i forget what it's called but it's the little tagline is no bad ideas down the drain

00:52:11.520 genius I know simply genius it's a charmer but you know I just I I pitch this this taskmaster 0.96

00:52:19.800 shit at you because I berate myself with it throughout the day so I don't want you to suffer 0.94

00:52:23.760 at the very hands of but I actually mean there is because I'm I'm not one of these life's hard kid 0.99

00:52:29.080 I I do believe no I know you're not you know so it's like no it's like deep relief what you're

00:52:33.960 saying it's a deep relief there's a way in where you can go like sometimes like like the one thing

00:52:40.760 that'll get me past my own avoidance is like this kind of furious uh put upon kind of anger

00:52:46.240 yeah well I guess I'll just have to show them how it's done then or something I don't know I'm not 0.97

00:52:52.740 really sure what it is but it's like it's like I guess it's gonna fucking suck let's do it you 0.82

00:52:57.480 know what I mean yes and then like in I go with a kind of rage I mean this is this I guess how 0.87

00:53:03.220 people get addicted to rage I don't know I don't know the answers aren't there and and every day

00:53:08.640 we we are new you know i know it's true i mean that's that's the the revelations only last

00:53:17.080 they're so brief well they're brief and they're i mean i hate to say it i hate what i'm about to

00:53:22.500 say are you ready i hate it so much you know the revelations are great but they're not action

00:53:26.140 okay i know and no no more what was my this is a while ago i was like no more epiphanies

00:53:32.480 yeah no more epiphanies yeah because you and me we get we get ecstasy cling to the epiphany

00:53:38.660 yeah we get ecstasy and epiphany and i mean and that's why i think you and me on the c bobs

00:53:44.700 so revelatory meanwhile we were trying to have epiphanies during i mean not trying we were we

00:53:50.240 were that's the thing when action takes over okay that's one thing the c bob those moments

00:53:56.240 when you're trying to, when a moment is so perversely spectacular that you're like trying

00:54:03.080 to instantly, it's like the epiphany has to, that was a moment in my life that I'll remember forever.

00:54:07.820 And it was this moment of like, I've never been more free. I'm in the ocean with you. I feel it

00:54:13.460 was like, it was a dream state. It was utterly surreal. It was like full integration. It was

00:54:19.380 psychotic. And even as I'm barreling on the water, I'm going, and what does this mean? I'm still

00:54:23.860 trying to locate meaning and i know oh because it's too profound the imagery is too profound

00:54:30.260 always i'm i'm always you know reaching for the pen inside of my um water vest or whatever you

00:54:36.680 know inside of my flotation device it's it's and we were at each other screaming being like this

00:54:40.940 is that right like we were like yeah but we weren't completely to our credit we were in the

00:54:45.820 we were present we were present we stayed present i have to say like we were no we were absolutely

00:54:51.400 present like we kept diving back under the water we couldn't we couldn't i actually could cry how

00:54:55.880 much i want to go back well i just and then we become locked in you see like even we're even us

00:55:01.600 we're fools okay because we become locked in on sea bobs like literally the device itself i know

00:55:06.080 okay the motorized unit i became convinced was the only pathway the revelation is what we need 0.52

00:55:12.040 and this is how people yeah and this is how people chase you know chase things and that's that's fine

00:55:16.060 we're we're earthbound and it is what it is but the being in the water with you diving under and

00:55:22.980 over okay soaring bouncing along the simplicity of speeding the thing up i mean i even in my own

00:55:30.900 you know way i mean i believe i mentioned this but my past life memories during that aren't that

00:55:35.280 i don't necessarily believe are real but when i zipped under the water the ship yeah i heard

00:55:41.460 myself and sort of captain's voice say um we didn't have a thingamabobs like this in my day

00:55:46.580 moderation is not the goal social media was not designed for moderation phones were not

00:55:56.540 designed for motor they were they were designed for annihilation for annihilation i'm supposed

00:56:01.460 to annihilate myself every day to use this thing yes this fallacy this idea of like the health i

00:56:07.100 I mean, it's no, to use it is to be completely swallowed by it and to completely lose all

00:56:12.220 intimacy with yourself and the world.

00:56:14.880 And I guess some people, some people are able to do it.

00:56:17.220 I want to, and I, and I praise those people and I'm, I'm in awe of them.

00:56:20.380 I don't know if you had to praise them.

00:56:21.800 I mean, you mean the moderation ones are the ones who can just be obliterated daily and

00:56:25.220 they're fine with it.

00:56:25.900 Somebody who logs on some, no, no, no.

00:56:27.780 Somebody who goes, yeah, I check it, but I don't really go on there.

00:56:32.680 I'm like, what?

00:56:33.920 I've been able to do that with Twitter, like completely.

00:56:36.600 like twitter is like yeah it's like me too actually it's not quite the right word it's

00:56:41.200 like a um like quicksand i don't know like i don't like it over there i might leave twitter

00:56:45.680 is like i have an idea okay oh yeah what's your idea well i have a few ideas solutions

00:56:50.440 solutions give me a solution now okay well and you know pitching a book is always hell but have

00:56:57.120 you ever read and don't mistake me or think that i've i'm mistaking my words people yeah the war

00:57:02.320 of art Stephen Pressfield it is so weird that you say that because I was in a bookstore merely what

00:57:09.660 three days ago and picked it up and was like I've actually never read this you've heard about of it

00:57:14.400 right of course of course but I've never actually read it yeah I love it I mean and it's kind of

00:57:19.440 like tough love right it's like absolutely cold comfort yeah the first half is about resistance

00:57:25.520 Okay. And it's many forms. Um, and how, you know, and it, it goes through a bunch of like things. So the, the idea is sort of like, you know, that which you are sort of born to do meant to do, or is really valuable to you to do, or would be meaningful. You know, there's a part of our psychology that just call it the death instinct, call it whatever you want.

00:57:49.040 yeah okay but there's there's like something in you that um is gonna fight that like those those

00:57:57.000 impulses right and that's of course you know what he calls resistance and says it can take many forms

00:58:01.640 and uh sorry i hate that intonation it's like i spaced out and i slipped into how people talk and

00:58:06.800 it takes many forms and um i thought it was seamless well that's the problem it was too

00:58:14.160 seamless yeah yeah yeah um okay but then what but then what and then what's the second half

00:58:20.300 he's like shut up identifies but there's but there's endless and then the second half brings

00:58:25.620 in all right what do you do when you fight so one of the big i had it like taped on my computer for 0.51

00:58:29.780 years okay there's no such thing as the dread-free artist stop showing up every day expecting that

00:58:36.860 today it's going to be easy or that today you're not going to feel the dread it's like it's like

00:58:41.580 if you keep changing tactics because you're looking for something that's always going to

00:58:45.680 feel it's like no you're like the more important the project is to you the more you're going to

00:58:49.180 avoid it like you know the more you're meant to do it the more you're going to avoid it kind of

00:58:53.340 thing and don't know it and it but it but it it's really good at breaking down like here are all

00:58:59.080 these different ways things that you might not realize are resistance and then the second half

00:59:03.960 the second half is about the muse again courting the muse all right and the muse is the opposite

00:59:10.240 of resistance in, in kind of in my, my sense of the book. Right. And courting the muse is kind of

00:59:16.860 like, okay, I'm going to, um, you know, I'm going to treat my work, my workspace. I'm going to put

00:59:22.060 on my lucky sock. It's like, it's like, I'm going to put on my lucky socks. I'm going to sweep up

00:59:26.420 around my desk. Like I'm going to treat this with sort of respect. And I like that, but there's a,

00:59:34.680 there is a manning up i mean careful careful no i mean i know i know and we're off the air yeah

00:59:42.900 by the way very eager for lancers decollete contour fusion um what because it has snail

00:59:57.420 uh not snail mucin one of my favorite products of course but snail

01:00:00.860 a kono snail peptide synthetic uh peptide complex i'm dizzy i'm dizzy this week has

01:00:07.680 been all about snake and snail peptides for me but anyway snake oh yeah venom venom snail venom

01:00:14.580 cone snail venom and and synthetic so there's a product called sin ache then there's then there's

01:00:19.980 xep 30 or xep 18 i can't remember anyway say snake i just want to say kind of a healing mantra i've

01:00:26.160 i think it's a ramdas thing but i like it it's about transformation and he says i think it's

01:00:30.460 ramdash you can't rip the skin off a snake damn about like shedding you know and like a new skin

01:00:35.660 oh and i've been really liking that lately well that's that's very generous because i always think 0.87

01:00:39.960 well hey sure you can you want to rip the skin off yeah we're sure you can with a little grit

01:00:46.680 no i always want rapid transformation we all do i know it sucks that change takes time it's one 0.96

01:00:52.580 of the most devastating realities we have to face disgusting i have no interest in it i want it now

01:00:57.420 beyond that now aren't we beyond um literally time-based unfoldings really quickly i want to

01:01:03.960 ask you do you find that your moods because i i don't know if i have like when i think about

01:01:09.380 myself and my moods like for example this morning i was driving and i had this moment of like

01:01:14.700 shocking euphoria like i was like it's all like i just felt i was like ah like i felt just like

01:01:19.540 completely imbued with like with like it's like magical gratitude slammed into a wall and then

01:01:25.720 alongside that was like don't crash don't crash don't crash don't crash you know because I was

01:01:29.240 driving but I was like I'm sailing I'm sailing like I'm so grateful for this moment hold on you

01:01:33.320 know I think about like Nietzsche you know like in the spoke Zarathustra or whatever this idea

01:01:37.320 of like the yes moment I think it's the spoke Zarathustra but the whole idea of like you have

01:01:41.380 like a yes moment in your life and it's like a steep affirmation of your own path and that all 0.83

01:01:46.280 rows have led to that and here you are and I had that and then like damn maybe 45 minutes later I

01:01:50.660 was like you know sad like 45 minutes later i was back and i was like oh no and i felt it returning

01:01:58.300 yes do you find that that happens to you well yeah i mean the efforts to maintain you know a

01:02:06.520 static and positive mood uh you know you can't do it and actually and we will talk about this

01:02:13.200 i'm not sorry i don't want to do that on another episode thing but i don't think we can get into

01:02:17.000 it here because i'm not prepared but the menstrual the menstrual okay oh yes embracing cyclical

01:02:22.520 nature is very hard for me i want to be a diagonal line headed towards greatness okay 0.92

01:02:27.100 a perfect diagonal it's not linear healing is not linear okay we make quite and so you know it sucks

01:02:33.880 but again i don't like change unfolding on time i want instant action and that's why i so my only

01:02:39.140 way to tolerate non-linearity even be or linearity being impossible right pure line upwards

01:02:46.820 is to accept the quantum okay and then that makes me think i can leap there so there won't be a line

01:02:51.760 i'll just be down here and then i'll be up there but things unfolding in time is one of the greatest

01:02:55.520 indignities okay i know anyway what wait i just but i wanted to react to your mood thing oh yeah

01:03:01.560 there you are so thus is it spoke i thought it was spake thus spoke there it's like thus spake

01:03:06.880 zarathustra or something weird i believe it spoke but where the hell would i be getting spake

01:03:12.880 wait i want to talk about the mood thing though okay because this that is the horror of um any

01:03:19.040 moment of peace right i'm feeling it slip away is is yes and and you you have to uh you have to

01:03:28.360 find a way through that or life is hell okay if life involves trying to um trying to sort of

01:03:35.360 maintain a brittle fence around your joy right patch it up quick quick before the pain comes in

01:03:45.000 right no i know so i've always led towards invite the pain in invite the pain in because the opposite

01:03:49.840 so heinous yeah yeah but i don't also believe that that at times has led me to you know court

01:03:55.660 and allow uh moods to take me where maybe it would have been good i don't know it's just the relief

01:04:03.120 It's the relief of, I felt such sublime relief today. Cause I felt, I was like, wow, it's

01:04:07.960 remarkable. Like yesterday around this time, I felt like shit. And then I was feeling good. And 0.99

01:04:12.600 then within that, I have this awareness of like, see Kate moods change. You are down. Now you're

01:04:18.240 up. You will be down again. You know, we have to accept that, uh, that we're constantly in process.

01:04:23.160 Right. And this, I mean, that's the whole, in the whole, and Buddhism now I demand Buddhism now.

01:04:26.900 Right. I'm like, I have to, that's really what I have to do. And because it's like, we have to

01:04:31.300 accept you have to you have to remember they're going to die and be reborn every day and you're

01:04:35.860 going to suffer a million deaths and you should choose to die many times in your life

01:04:39.320 i'm silent because we should constantly transform of course i mean the answer is simply of course

01:04:47.120 i didn't know it's so scary it's so scary we don't want to die but we're going to every day

01:04:52.180 well and be and be born again that was poog if you enjoyed poog please subscribe

01:05:00.260 rate and review if not we will press charges

Poog with Kate Berlant and Jacqueline Novak - October 06, 2026

REMIX： The Ego Loves to Seek Pt. 2

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