There Are No Girls on the Internet - Ashley Reese on Tumblr, fandom, and building communities online- LIVE FROM BROOKLYN

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00:00:27.560 More Americans listen to podcasts,

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00:00:37.800 844-844-iheart i survived nine months in captivity and i've spent my life exploring how other people

00:00:46.160 survive what should have destroyed them i'm elizabeth smart and these are the survivor files

00:00:52.040 every week i'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable abducted stalked controlled and

00:00:58.480 nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The

00:01:04.500 Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

00:01:10.380 get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality,

00:01:15.860 welcome home. Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone

00:01:21.660 who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. Each week,

00:01:26.180 we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture

00:01:29.220 with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.

00:01:34.000 Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

00:01:35.760 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:01:45.720 There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

00:01:49.520 i'm bridget todd and this is there are no girls on the internet

00:01:56.640 this is a live show taped from the digital void festival in brooklyn new york

00:02:02.520 digital void is an internet literacies collective exploring digital technology

00:02:06.740 media and culture and there i got to speak to writer and cultural critic ashley reese

00:02:11.160 about what brought her to the internet and the role it plays in her life and work so please enjoy

00:02:15.420 this is a live podcast recording of there are no girls on the internet and Bridget Todd is the

00:02:29.360 creator and host of iHeartRadio's critically acclaimed there are no girls on the internet

00:02:32.700 and she's the director of communications of ultraviolet and in conversation with Ashley Reese

00:02:36.640 thank you so much thank you hello uh thank you for that warm introduction my name is Bridget Todd

00:02:46.000 and I am the producer and host of iHeartRadio's tech and culture podcast there are no girls on

00:02:50.560 the internet uh if you don't know what that podcast is uh we really are interested in telling

00:02:55.580 the story of all the ways that people who have been traditionally and historically marginalized

00:02:59.320 so people of color queer folks trans folks black folks all those amazing people who make the internet

00:03:05.340 what it is. We're really interested in telling the story of the ways that we show up or do not

00:03:10.420 show up online, on the internet, and in technology. And what that often really looks like is folks who

00:03:15.980 are living at the intersection. And the guest that I am so excited to bring on is no exception.

00:03:20.640 Ashley Reese is a writer and cultural critic. She is as comfortable talking about politics

00:03:25.940 and writing as she is tweeting about her hatred for mint chocolate. Welcome, Ashley Reese.

00:03:35.340 No, I love it. Rockin' the Telfeezy.

00:03:43.740 I just realized, like, why do I have all of my belongings with me right now?

00:03:47.620 No, I love it. I love it. So I mean, I would feel, I would be remiss to not sort of start

00:03:53.200 this conversation just acknowledging that we're in this moment that feels very heavy and very

00:03:59.020 fraught for so many of us. And so I wanted to start by asking, Ashley, just generally as a

00:04:03.480 person how are you um i feel like my response to that whenever anyone's asked me that recently is

00:04:12.120 just that noise yeah pretty much like full disclosure and i don't want like you know oh

00:04:19.420 i'm sorry i mean it sucks but like literally in the last like month or so found out my boyfriend's

00:04:26.260 cancer came back he's gonna be okay got laid off from my job at netflix um and then was in the

00:04:36.920 i've been in the hospital with my wife he's he's really gonna be okay he's fine he just had surgery

00:04:41.060 it's fine but yeah it's just it's stressful like um so and then you have like personal stuff on top

00:04:48.700 of like anytime i like check the news it's like the worst thing i've ever seen in my life so it's

00:04:54.760 like oh so that's why my response is yeah that I feel how many of you all out there can identify

00:05:01.120 with that noise when someone's like how are you yeah seems like a lot of us solidarity I got it

00:05:09.120 I mean that's a great place to start you know you are a prolific tweeter a prolific user of

00:05:14.880 social media she's a great twitter follower I definitely recommend following um what role

00:05:19.340 would you say that especially when things are really dark and hard what role would you say

00:05:23.680 that social media has and how you are showing up and coping like are you using social media to

00:05:30.440 you know find community or share resources or just like tweet memes and nihilistic jokes and

00:05:36.640 gallows humor like or a combination like like what does it look like for you so i mean i'm not

00:05:42.020 someone who's going to act like i'm above doom scrolling in these situations i know that like

00:05:46.400 there's always a tweet that's like you don't have to do this right now you can like log off and take

00:05:51.560 a break and I'm like so right and I'm just like scrolling scrolling so true and I'm just like

00:05:56.920 retweet angry tweet retweet so you know it's this kind of thing where like I know that um social 0.86

00:06:03.000 media can sometimes feel like the worst possible thing you can be on when something really fucked

00:06:07.900 up's happening but um I mean I guess if I do get some comfort from it it's from seeing that other

00:06:16.500 people are you know just as angry as you are about something or like you know even if you're doing

00:06:22.040 something practical like me screaming into the void about like gun control isn't maybe doing

00:06:26.900 anything practical I'm not like yelling in Ted Cruz's ear not that that would do anything anyway

00:06:31.860 but um you know I guess if I have to do something practical it's like oh you see a GoFundMe for like

00:06:38.100 a family that's like dealing with like the aftermath of like something devastating happened

00:06:43.580 like you know the school shooting the other day me retweeting that is doing and like donating is

00:06:48.640 doing something 10 times more useful and is a more useful use of my time and energy than you know

00:06:55.520 retweeting someone I agree with I'm like yeah that's the right take I agree like you know

00:07:01.460 it's so I don't know social media is kind of a double-edged sword on that front and every other

00:07:06.660 front yeah that's i mean i completely agree and i feel like that experience i guess i i when the

00:07:14.120 when the news of the shooting first happened i really caught myself going into this weird dark

00:07:19.500 rabbit hole of takes like who has a bad take who has a good take right i sort of caught myself and

00:07:26.260 i was like i'm in a place where i am not putting out anything that's going to be useful or thoughtful

00:07:31.320 or good for anybody and I should probably just log off right like does me yelling at Matt Iglesias

00:07:36.860 for his bad tweet like really do anything yeah no see we we knew it see it's like it makes me feel

00:07:43.600 good for a second to like dunk but like he's not seeing it my followers already agree with me

00:07:49.040 it's kind of like okay I'd had my little bit of like you know just I don't know getting my anger

00:07:55.420 out in this like very weird but I mean again I think that like it's really easy to kind of act

00:08:00.340 like we need to be like above certain things but like we're on the internet for good reasons and

00:08:04.740 also deeply idiotic reasons and sometimes I you know maybe it's not like a helpful thing it's not

00:08:11.520 more helpful than like sharing a GoFundMe for like a family but like I don't think there's 0.97

00:08:16.320 anything inherently wrong with kind of getting your like you know that angry energy out if it's

00:08:22.420 something a little mostly harmless like I think Matt like dunking on Matt Iglesias is mostly

00:08:26.720 harmless so you know it i don't know that's like i mean it's social media again it's like

00:08:34.580 the good stuff and the bad stuff so you alluded earlier about like the reasons why certain folks

00:08:40.840 show up online what like what like what brings you to social media like why are you someone who

00:08:46.600 has a prolific social media presence what brought you to the internet in the first place what is

00:08:50.380 that what have those experiences been like for you i don't know i think about when someone's

00:08:53.700 like what brought you to the internet i'm like i don't know like horny draco hermione fan fiction

00:08:58.100 in 2004 like maybe that's what brought me there um live journal which i still haven't i've never

00:09:05.580 deleted my account it's like i have a completely like you know just a complete archive of every

00:09:11.980 like crazy thing i thought about in 2004 like so that's kind of fun so i mean i feel like i had my

00:09:18.420 natural progression of like blogging and then you know you create your facebook or myspace or

00:09:24.780 whatever then you make your tumblr and then you spend all day on tumblr and then i don't know i

00:09:29.860 kind of you know as we saw in the last presentation some that somehow i just kind of fell off tumblr

00:09:33.280 and went to twitter and so and then you have instagram so i don't know what brings me to

00:09:39.440 internet i've just always had a big mouth and i guess some people like to hear what i have to say

00:09:44.180 um well thanks so like that's when i think about like what brought me to internet i think like

00:09:49.840 fandom was a big part of it i feel like if i wasn't involved in all these like fandoms and

00:09:55.360 meeting people through like live journal and tumblr when i was in high school in college like

00:09:59.940 i think i'd be pretty normie on the internet just like i'm on instagram and here's like my dog or

00:10:06.420 something like that but no instead i'm like tweeting about like remember this like weird

00:10:10.460 fan fiction when we were like in seventh grade or you know stuff like that so I'm on the internet

00:10:16.600 because of weird shit I mean that's that's what brought me to the internet and that's actually

00:10:21.220 one of the reasons why you know I make a podcast about the internet and oftentimes it's about 0.98

00:10:25.940 things like harassment and all the different ways that the internet oh I know a lot about that yeah

00:10:30.060 I will get into it but yeah I mean I what brings me hope about my experience online is weirdos I

00:10:37.920 really believe in the power of a collective of people weirdos who care about the internet care

00:10:43.160 about the health of the internet care that they can express their weird interests on the internet

00:10:47.840 and I believe in the power of those weirdos to make the internet a place where people want to

00:10:52.160 spend their time I mean I feel like the internet used to feel more like I mean I don't know maybe

00:10:59.060 this is again the perspective of someone who was like on live journal a bunch all through high

00:11:02.780 school and then was on tumblr all through college and stuff like that but I feel like in a lot of

00:11:07.660 ways the internet has gotten bigger but also like smaller like I feel like it's so much harder to

00:11:11.680 find to like not just find these like little enclaves of being like a weirdo but also to feel

00:11:18.900 like safe in them like this that feels very like you know gooey but I mean like sincerely like I

00:11:24.000 mean I feel like you can like I mean in the live journal days you can have your little community

00:11:27.900 where you're like a literal like the live journal community where like you're it can be like a

00:11:32.880 locked community even like you don't have like random people who just want to like harass you

00:11:36.440 kind of like come in there um on tumblr i do feel like it was a little more insulated too yeah like

00:11:41.400 sometimes something from a fandom i have no interest in would come across my page and i'd be

00:11:45.040 like what's going on over there but like it wasn't a thing where i really felt involved in or had to

00:11:49.600 get involved in now i can't like tweet anything about like anything without someone being like

00:11:53.180 well like if i say like i yeah i really fucking hate strawberries and someone's like well i only 0.79

00:11:58.600 can only subsist on strawberries so this is like really really wrong of you to say i mean i just 0.71

00:12:03.520 feel like it's it's harder in some ways to have these spaces that don't feel like you're always

00:12:12.060 in danger of the wrong people getting a hold of it um but yeah I don't really know like

00:12:19.880 I don't know I feel like I'm like 31 now so I've been on the internet for like half my life

00:12:24.860 and shout out to 31 year old yes shout out to like being in your 30s and still being really

00:12:32.160 online and still like reading fan fiction yeah i agree um no like literally if i like open my like

00:12:37.960 tabs on my phone it'd be like a03 a03 oh my god i i'm so tempted to ask you to do that but i won't

00:12:44.560 put you on the spot unless you want to all i know is that like whenever i'm in a spot where like i'm

00:12:49.400 feeling deeply like in a dark place or something it's very nice to have that comfort of like let's

00:12:53.760 see what like bad fan fiction i can read right now just to like you know pass the time i love it

00:12:59.980 Let's take a quick break.

00:13:29.980 run a business and not thinking about podcasting think again more americans listen to podcasts

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00:13:56.940 you at iHeartAdvertising.com. That's iHeartAdvertising.com. When I was 14 years old,

00:14:03.680 I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months. I survived and I've spent my life exploring how

00:14:10.200 other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the

00:14:16.020 Survivor Files. I just remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say 0.96

00:14:24.220 anything. Every week I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up

00:14:31.700 without a doubt he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my

00:14:38.580 bed and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

00:14:45.940 But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. They're stories about what it takes to make

00:14:51.660 it out alive listen to the survivor files with elizabeth smart on the iheart radio app apple

00:14:58.060 podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts if your bookshelf and your for you page are equally

00:15:03.940 important to your personality welcome home this is prose society the weekly podcast that's part

00:15:11.280 book club part group chat for thought daughters pop culture obsessives and anyone who thinks

00:15:16.020 pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse i'm eli rallo and every

00:15:21.200 week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't

00:15:25.980 stop having. I'm gonna have to look up this story. I'm obsessed, so obsessed. From best-selling

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00:15:53.600 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:15:59.540 See you between the pages.

00:16:06.740 And we're back.

00:16:10.840 You know, we talked a little bit about this before we got started,

00:16:14.960 But I think the experience of being a, particularly a black woman who has a pretty big platform and a pretty big digital footprint online. 0.98

00:16:22.960 Which I don't know how the fuck that happened. 0.94

00:16:24.280 Yeah, you, I mean, you're hilarious and brilliant. 0.92

00:16:26.180 I'm not even trying to be humble.

00:16:27.020 I'm like, where are you people coming from?

00:16:30.060 But, you know, can you talk a bit about what that experience has been like for you?

00:16:33.580 Like, I sometimes feel like it can be a tightrope and I am very mindful of how I show up online because of it.

00:16:41.100 I'm curious how it has impacted the way that you show up on online spaces.

00:16:44.100 so you know I can't act like this has all been bad to have like an audience I mean when I was

00:16:50.700 I had to go fund me to like raise money to like support our medical bills because when I got laid

00:16:56.000 off that meant that like my my boyfriend is insured through me and we're in America so that

00:17:00.520 means that like your insurance is really like you know in limbo so you know yeah having a big

00:17:06.260 platform allowed me to like be able to actually like get a good amount of money to be able to

00:17:10.320 not worry about medical bills like I'm not going to act like I'm that's that's unimportant but also

00:17:15.660 it gets to the point where like you know when I really am on I really was online because of

00:17:21.340 online fandoms like that really is what kept me on these little corners of the internet and then

00:17:26.920 you know I did like you know writing as my career I did a lot of political writing I mean it's hard

00:17:32.700 to not be political for me just in my like existence as a person and I feel like I don't

00:17:37.160 know something around the time of the 2016 election i just got like a slew of people which

00:17:42.500 is like the wrong time to get a lot of attention um and i don't know people just kept coming because

00:17:49.520 i think that when you see that someone has a big like a lot like a large twitter following or

00:17:52.580 something you're like oh this is a person worth following to follow and like i don't know if i'm

00:17:56.240 the right person for you guys i seem to be pissing you off every single day um so you know it's

00:18:02.400 it's good and bad but in a lot of ways like i've had to be more mindful of like what i post like

00:18:10.480 i try not to write anything too personal on like twitter for example anymore because someone will

00:18:16.260 always find some reason like dunk on you or like they'll have screenshots and then like five months

00:18:21.640 after you post something they're like huh but what about when you said this i'm like why is this in

00:18:25.880 your phone like you know just to like pull up at the right moment um some weird out of context thing

00:18:32.080 So, you know, I've had to be a little more sterile on that front. 0.98

00:18:37.100 I'll still post, like, I'll still post some weird shit. 0.93

00:18:40.580 Like, I mean, it gets to a point where it's like I realize that, like, I don't know, Amy Klobuchar follows me. 0.87

00:18:44.200 But I'm like, am I really going to write about, like, I don't know, like, Dobby Hagrid fan fiction right now?

00:18:50.360 Like, I'm like, you know what?

00:18:52.720 Her people decided to follow me.

00:18:54.120 This is what they're going to get.

00:18:55.520 So, you know.

00:18:56.640 And for those of you who know, you know.

00:18:58.940 If you know, you know.

00:18:59.960 um i'm like yeah i'm just gonna do this so it's it's it's strange but you have to i just have to

00:19:05.760 be really smart about it so that people don't like find my number and call me and yell at me

00:19:10.060 which has happened before yeah that's happened to you like from things that you've written on

00:19:13.740 jezbel about certain elected officials that that elected officials fans found your you and your

00:19:19.700 partner's number and called you in the middle of the night to harass you yeah it was it was weird

00:19:24.900 um so it's like things like that where you just don't really feel totally safe but um

00:19:32.100 yeah i don't know now everything i'm saying is like oh is it worth having all these people

00:19:37.400 following on the internet maybe not but i can't i mean i can't help i'm not gonna not have a big

00:19:42.400 mouth anymore i'm just gonna be a little bit more selective about what i'm a big mouth about 0.97

00:19:45.480 yeah i so i love you know shout out to women with big mouths who do not shut the fuck up i am i 1.00

00:19:52.900 I, may we raise them, may we be them. 0.98

00:19:56.240 You know, speaking of that, like, there is one topic.

00:19:59.420 So I also have a big mouth, and I use my platform to talk about whatever I want.

00:20:03.920 But there has been one topic recently that I have really not spoken up about

00:20:08.120 because I have seen the way that any person who speaks up about it

00:20:11.560 sort of gets silenced and harassed, and that is the Johnny Depp Amber Heard trial, right?

00:20:17.860 So, like, I tweeted one thing, and then I quickly deleted it,

00:20:21.380 and I have not tweeted anything since.

00:20:23.560 But you're actually someone who really is vocal about it

00:20:26.480 and, like, uses your platform to have conversations about it.

00:20:30.180 And I guess I'm curious, you know, I love the Internet

00:20:33.400 and I'm hopeful about the Internet,

00:20:34.760 but when I think about the state of the Internet,

00:20:37.100 specifically for survivors,

00:20:38.760 I'm so concerned that we're building an Internet ecosystem

00:20:42.940 where it's not okay for survivors to speak up.

00:20:45.920 And I'm wondering, like, what do you think about that?

00:20:47.960 I think my main, I think my, like, initial thought is, like,

00:20:50.860 I feel like that internet's been here for a long time I feel like that there's been like a movement

00:20:55.280 of pushback against that because I feel like that's the default the default is to silence

00:20:59.100 survivors and to tell people to shut up and to you know do that so I feel like there's been

00:21:05.460 a movement to push up against that and I guess recently it's kind of felt like it's like faltered

00:21:10.940 a little bit you know um just add that to the list of things to feel like a little pessimistic

00:21:16.740 about i mean i'm ultimately an optimist but like you see some of these like you know i'm not a

00:21:21.580 conspiracy theory really person but like i can't even like look up like a how-to video on youtube

00:21:27.760 without being like suggested like five times johnny depp like totally like you know owned amber

00:21:34.320 or you know i'm just like i don't look up anything about this i maybe like write the occasional like

00:21:40.560 tweet about it but like when it's like just being infected into like your feeds and everything it's

00:21:45.860 it's kind of I don't know it's it's very aggressive and kind of scary um I don't know

00:21:53.040 it just seems like there's so much regression on so many different levels that like I think

00:21:58.880 this is just one small part of it um but yeah it's it's hard to be an optimist on the internet

00:22:05.440 right now I feel like you're either seeing something awful or seeing awful things happen

00:22:11.260 other people and all that stuff but that's all that's I think that's the reason why I kind of

00:22:17.500 do gravitate towards these like little circles I have that make me feel like again like safe

00:22:22.180 seems like such a feels like such a gooey word to me but yeah like when I see something like when I

00:22:26.940 sometimes I need to stop doom scrolling and be like let me just like talk about something really

00:22:31.320 goofy like let me like reminisce about someone about like dash con with someone you know who

00:22:36.980 gets it or something like that like it feels nice to kind of have these weird space and all this

00:22:43.280 like kind of like internet history to kind of fall back on to think of like oh yeah there were times

00:22:47.120 the internet was just really funny and really fun and like goofy and there are still those times but

00:22:52.200 i don't know do you have a favorite goofy funny internet moment that sticks out to you or just

00:22:59.820 one that you that is memorable to you god that's a really good question again this is we're going

00:23:05.640 we're talking about like 15 years of like everything that's happened on the internet

00:23:08.580 i'm like going through my head like you know um okay well dash con was obviously iconic anyone

00:23:13.960 who was on tumblr during dash con knows that was maybe like the most hilarious three days

00:23:18.280 on the internet um kind of sad but like really funny um yeah you know someone asked me this

00:23:26.520 recently like what was like one of the funniest days on the internet and i'm like i don't know

00:23:30.780 is it inappropriate for me to say like when Trump got COVID?

00:23:33.540 Oh, I remember that.

00:23:35.860 I'm sorry, I'm not making light of that,

00:23:38.260 but just like it was, that was a wild night.

00:23:41.100 We can't deny that it was a wild night, right?

00:23:44.400 Like whether that's appropriate for me,

00:23:45.860 it was a wild night.

00:23:46.900 I remember I was still working at Jezebel at the time

00:23:48.760 and I was the only one who was like up that late.

00:23:51.280 My editors were all asleep and I'm like,

00:23:52.940 I think I need to post this.

00:23:54.140 I think I need to post this.

00:23:55.160 What do I do?

00:23:55.800 I don't know how to do it.

00:23:56.580 And like, I don't know, my one coworker

00:23:58.780 who was like definitely like stoned in California

00:24:00.820 was like, I don't know, try it.

00:24:03.380 I'm just like, I'm just gonna post it.

00:24:05.160 And then it was, I don't know,

00:24:06.300 for some reason that was like a very dramatic moment for me

00:24:08.280 where I'm like, I gotta post the news.

00:24:11.440 But yeah, maybe I shouldn't say it was a funny day.

00:24:15.220 It was an intense day.

00:24:16.360 It was an intense night on the internet.

00:24:19.280 Yeah, God, if anyone, I mean,

00:24:22.720 and also any just like weird fandom thing that's happened,

00:24:25.720 like, I don't know.

00:24:27.480 i really look back on like some like i feel like i don't even have like favorite moments on the

00:24:33.200 internet i just have like really weird things i specifically remember and maybe five other people

00:24:37.300 i know also remember you know like a weird like remember when like the supernatural fans were

00:24:42.080 doing were like really into this one thing and like i wasn't even into the show but i knew about

00:24:45.580 it like you know i don't know but yeah why do you think that fandom has been such a a grounding

00:24:52.780 experience about how you show up online like what is it about fandom and you know nerding out about

00:24:58.560 niche things that has really solidified your online experience i think because that's where

00:25:02.480 i met so many friends like i i've probably there are friends i met on live journal when i was 16

00:25:09.360 that i'm still friends with to this day we like hang out around like the city and stuff and i

00:25:14.440 think that if it wasn't for making friends through these mediums like make you know i i probably

00:25:19.920 wouldn't care as much it would be really easy to kind of like have like a fleeting interest in

00:25:23.160 something and just kind of like going off to something else but like having friendships that

00:25:26.600 you've developed on over this really weird niche internet like phenomenon is like very special

00:25:33.800 I feel like and not every most people like don't have that experience and I think that's what has

00:25:37.960 kept me on the internet it wasn't like political commentary it wasn't like making people mad on

00:25:42.960 Twitter. It was like weird fan-ish stuff that, you know, put me where I am now, even if, you know,

00:25:50.980 that's, that's been my whole thing.

00:25:57.100 More after a quick break.

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00:26:51.680 That's iHeartAdvertising.com. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to

00:26:57.100 your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club,

00:27:04.380 part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks

00:27:08.580 Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:27:12.460 I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books,

00:27:16.140 the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.

00:27:19.400 I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

00:27:23.140 From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments,

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00:27:29.100 It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.

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00:27:46.180 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:27:52.100 See you between the pages.

00:27:53.300 When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.

00:28:00.080 I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:28:06.440 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.

00:28:10.140 I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, 0.96

00:28:15.560 shut up, don't say anything.

00:28:18.160 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. 0.99

00:28:21.300 unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling

00:28:28.600 that there was someone at the end of my bed and I just started screaming. They are abducted,

00:28:36.140 stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.

00:28:42.200 They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with

00:28:47.740 Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:28:59.020 Let's get right back into it.

00:29:05.480 Yeah, and I wanted to talk briefly about sort of this, I guess I feel like we're in this very

00:29:11.220 weird moment when it comes to the internet, particularly around people who are traditionally

00:29:15.200 marginalized i know that you were among the people who were laid off at netflix and netflix

00:29:19.860 had hired a lot of um marginalized folks like queer folks black women um and then laid a lot

00:29:25.940 of them off and i remember when that happened the commentary that i saw that was sort of like

00:29:30.900 that's what you get it was sort of either a was like well what did you expect selling out you know

00:29:37.480 for a big a big platform like netflix or b like oh netflix you know go woke go broke this is what

00:29:43.940 they get for hiring all these people to champion marginal you know traditionally marginalized voices

00:29:49.260 i guess my question is like why do you think that platforms like netflix and the internet

00:29:54.800 seems to be this new kind of ideological battleground where people are really hashing

00:30:00.440 out these partisan ideological fights on these spaces and it seems to be this sort of like push

00:30:05.440 pull for power like who has it who doesn't have it um who can amass it i mean what i can speak to

00:30:12.340 just the like I mean I can't speak in anything specifically

00:30:14.340 about my situation but like

00:30:16.180 I guess I'm just increasingly fascinated

00:30:18.600 by the kind of

00:30:19.980 way that like again I think

00:30:22.400 that this just kind of goes back to how the internet

00:30:24.480 is so much bigger but feels

00:30:26.480 so much smaller now like you just really don't

00:30:28.400 have the same kind of privacy and enclaves that you

00:30:30.400 used to anyone who's been online since like

00:30:32.380 the 2000s probably understands what I mean

00:30:34.600 where you could really kind of

00:30:36.360 have your own individual spaces talk about things and this

00:30:38.380 wouldn't be something that they're talking about on cable news

00:30:40.360 or that like you know or

00:30:42.220 a podcast or anything else it wouldn't be like in the main in the mainstream so i think it's just

00:30:48.040 the there are probably other people can talk about this way better than i can or may more eloquently

00:30:53.980 but like the kind of mainstreaming of the internet and mainstreaming of internet spaces i think has

00:30:59.060 been probably one of the biggest things that we're seeing in the last like i don't know decade or so

00:31:04.480 like how these kind of things that used to be things that you just kind of talk about you can

00:31:08.960 only really talk about with a few people end up becoming like these huge cultural phenomenons

00:31:12.700 um sure good things have come from it but like i don't know there's something a little there's

00:31:18.120 something lost there's something that's been lost i think in having these things kind of

00:31:24.840 proliferate the mainstream because yeah there are ways in which they can be used for good

00:31:29.220 we're talking about like marginalized people i remember just on tumblr marginalized people

00:31:32.720 talking about their experiences talking about like just or just griping about something talking

00:31:37.760 about oh why can't i find things that are in my size like things like that like those things yeah

00:31:41.780 they became mainstream and in some ways it's been good in some ways it's just been like a you know

00:31:45.780 a magnet for harassment a magnet for people dismissing you magnet for like you know everything

00:31:51.340 else so it's it really feels cliche to be like the internet's a double-edged sword but like what

00:31:56.160 else how else can you describe it it's been the place where i've found the most important people

00:32:00.140 in my life and have also experienced some of the most like traumatic harassing experiences of my

00:32:06.340 life you know it's it's something that's been like commodified it's something that's been like you

00:32:12.760 know bought and sold and stuff like that it's just it's weird it's a weird little place I guess

00:32:17.900 yeah I feel the exact same way and it makes me kind of sad because when I first you know I feel

00:32:24.700 like I grew up on the internet kind of like you I've lived most of my life on the internet in a

00:32:28.280 lot of ways it's my hometown yeah and you know it makes me sad when I think about how I used to show

00:32:35.340 up so hopeful and so excited and you know I was it really the day that my parents brought me a 0.79

00:32:42.480 computer like this boxy gray nightmare of a thing that took up our whole fucking desk and you know 0.89

00:32:48.420 the day that they brought that home it was like they brought me a pair of wings and it was 0.92

00:32:52.080 just discovery that's the only thing that I remember being the internet being about and now

00:32:56.420 when I show up there I'm so guarded I'm so careful I'm I just don't want to be on the end of what

00:33:03.240 you've just described harassment pylons and it's just like really bad faith you know attacks and

00:33:08.900 stuff like i mean i i think we're all kind of guilty of doing this we're all kind of guilty 0.98

00:33:13.660 of like the easy dunk we're all kind of guilty of the like look at this like dumb fucking tweet or 0.91

00:33:18.660 like something like that or like something we think is like we're none of us are innocent in 0.99

00:33:23.360 that regard i'm definitely complicit i've been a huge bitch on the internet before um and so you 0.52

00:33:30.660 know i don't think we're above it i don't think that all the harassment and everything is like

00:33:34.440 new i think this has been happening for a long time now especially over the last decade

00:33:37.960 but i do think just for me personally it's kind of weird that it's gotten to a point where like

00:33:43.540 i regularly have to like lock my account in case like the wrong person gets it or in case like i

00:33:49.720 don't know some right-wing weirdo gets it and then it just goes into a complete other part of the

00:33:55.100 internet that i don't know about and yeah you do have i do have to be more guard i can't be quite

00:34:00.080 as like open about my personal life

00:34:02.260 because people are weird

00:34:03.380 and you know I want to guard something

00:34:06.940 so yeah I'll give them like the hot takes

00:34:09.580 and I don't know reminiscing about

00:34:12.220 old smut fan fiction from like 2011

00:34:15.480 I keep talking about smutty fan fiction

00:34:17.280 but really it's a really big part of my life on the internet

00:34:19.580 but like the other stuff I really have to keep closer to

00:34:23.900 you know closer to the best

00:34:25.380 yeah do you I mean I guess that's

00:34:27.640 that's really brings me to one of my last questions like are you when you think about the

00:34:32.960 state of the internet especially for people who are traditionally marginalized are you hopeful

00:34:37.160 are you hopeful that it will be a place where folks can find their their find community and

00:34:42.980 find their shared interests whether it's politics or activism or you know smut are you hopeful of

00:34:50.220 the internet being like a place for self-discovery particularly for people who are traditionally

00:34:53.760 marginalized i think like it goes back to that kind of response or i mean i mean marginalized

00:35:01.980 people are always going to find communities online and i think that that's like a really

00:35:05.220 beautiful thing i think that that's like important i don't think that that should i think i don't

00:35:09.420 think that the bad stuff online has diminished that people are always going to find whether

00:35:14.420 it's like i don't know whether it's people who are marginalized whether it's people who are just

00:35:18.560 like really into some like k-pop group everyone will go all the stands are fun will find you they

00:35:22.720 everyone will find their people but i just think that gone are the days where you can kind of feel

00:35:30.180 like you're insulated and there is a comfort in being insulated and now you can't even be like a

00:35:35.560 weirdo online if like the wrong person finds it and it's just like look at these guys over here

00:35:40.040 and it's like i'm just over here hanging out like let me be weird in this quarter i'm not bothering

00:35:44.480 you so that's gotten harder with you know the internet just isn't as private as it used to be

00:35:51.440 yeah I once interviewed this amazing internet historian Claire Evans and she said that it's

00:35:56.960 interesting that the internet used to be where you went to be anonymous and the real world was

00:36:01.500 where you went to be like who like who you are and now it's completely flipped the internet is

00:36:06.100 where you are where you go to be like really manacled to your government name and the real

00:36:12.260 world is where you go to experience anonymity and it's so interesting that we're in this space where

00:36:16.620 it's been completely flipped like back in the day when I was first exploring the internet

00:36:21.080 it felt like discovery and anonymity and like, you know, this is going to sound very cheesy,

00:36:26.280 but like the old days of like the hacker online and like black leather fingerless gloves.

00:36:31.880 Like I'm logging on.

00:36:32.820 Exactly, right?

00:36:33.760 Like that was the internet experience that I feel like I was signing up for when I was younger.

00:36:37.560 And these days that is a fiction that is no longer what we have.

00:36:42.520 And I don't know what that says about the state of the internet today and like how we all show up on it.

00:36:47.840 But I'm really hopeful to carve out those spaces that feel like discovery and joy and connection and anonymity, if that's what you want.

00:36:57.500 And I'm hopeful that we can really preserve that feeling for the next generation online.

00:37:03.180 I hope so. I guess we need to find like a deviant art or whatever for like the Zoomers or something. 0.96

00:37:07.780 Again, if you know, you know. 1.00

00:37:09.720 Oh, I know.

00:37:10.320 but yeah no i think like you know the internet i would like it to be i know a place where yeah

00:37:16.520 we're gonna be able to have to share among like different spaces but i would hope that it's also

00:37:20.880 can be more of a space for people can enjoy and heart can partake in harmless fun without feeling

00:37:26.200 like they're gonna be like violated you know we deserve that we deserve to have internet spaces

00:37:31.620 where we can partake in whatever nerdy harmless fun we want without feeling like we're gonna get

00:37:35.840 violated exactly actually where can folks keep up with all the amazing stuff that you're up to

00:37:41.440 okay you can follow me at offbeat orbit on twitter instagram stuff like that i don't i don't use

00:37:48.600 tumblr anymore but now i'm like maybe i need to go back it might be time for a tumblr revival

00:37:52.540 like i kind of peeked around for a little bit like a couple weeks ago i'm like okay the girls

00:37:56.780 are still on here like really like causing havoc like let's let's tap in so you know but also if 0.84

00:38:03.540 type in Ashley Reese anywhere, I should pop up, talk about lack of anonymity. I'm at that point

00:38:09.180 now. Give it up for Ashley Reese. Thank you. Well, thank you all for listening. And thank you, 0.99

00:38:18.260 Ashley, for being here. If you want to hear more conversations about the experience of being a

00:38:22.700 traditionally and historically marginalized person online, you can subscribe to my podcast on iHeart

00:38:27.160 Radio. It's called There Are No Girls on the Internet, and we would love to have you there.

00:38:30.420 my name is Bridget Todd

00:38:31.660 this has been amazing

00:38:32.460 thank you so much

00:38:33.120 for having me

00:38:33.840 goodbye

00:38:35.120 and if you want to talk

00:38:36.900 about weird fan fiction

00:38:37.920 you can also find

00:38:38.820 me I'm in the jumpsuit

00:38:39.740 yes

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00:38:46.660 check out our merch store

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00:38:49.840 got a story about

00:38:51.740 an interesting thing in tech

00:38:52.840 or just want to say hi

00:38:53.820 you can reach us at

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00:38:56.260 you can also find

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00:39:00.000 There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me, Bridget Todd.

00:39:02.720 It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

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00:39:29.360 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

00:39:35.800 Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:39:44.460 Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.

00:39:52.720 Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

00:39:54.180 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:40:00.540 I survived nine months in captivity, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive

00:40:07.180 what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.

00:40:12.880 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled,

00:40:18.600 and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:40:24.180 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app,

00:40:28.860 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:40:33.960 Hey, this is Hayes Davenport.

00:40:35.880 And Sean Clemens.

00:40:37.060 We host the podcast Hollywood Handbook.

00:40:39.240 Every episode, we're trying to help our guests improve their careers

00:40:41.620 by mainly focusing on how they can help us improve our careers.

00:40:44.860 The show's famously super accessible,

00:40:46.860 so you can easily jump into any of our 650 episodes and understand what's going on.

00:40:51.240 We recommend some of our recent episodes with Ben Stiller, Danny McBride, Riz Ahmed, and Mary Steenburgen.

00:40:56.220 Listen to Hollywood Handbook on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:41:02.320 I'm Nick Turturro.

00:41:03.340 You probably know me from NYPD Blue, The Longest Yard, or Spike Lee's Black Klansman.

00:41:08.300 And on my new podcast, Delivering Happiness with Nick Turturro, I deliver pizza to a new guest.

00:41:13.360 I've shared a slice with everyone, from Seth Rollins.

00:41:15.900 What are you doing with my belt?

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00:41:18.120 I don't think I've ever met somebody so exactly out of their mind as I am.

00:41:23.040 And now, we even have more great guests coming up, including the great John Turturro.

00:41:27.920 It's called happiness.

00:41:28.980 Delivering happiness.

00:41:30.080 And many, many more.

00:41:31.540 Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Delivering Happiness with Nick Turturro, and listen now.

00:41:36.980 This is an iHeart Podcast.

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There Are No Girls on the Internet - June 03, 2022

Ashley Reese on Tumblr, fandom, and building communities online- LIVE FROM BROOKLYN

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