There Are No Girls on the Internet - BetterHelp is everywhere. Can we trust it？ - BEST OF TANGOTI

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00:00:34.940 I survived nine months in captivity,

00:00:38.460 and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:00:43.680 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files.

00:00:47.300 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable,

00:00:51.020 abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

00:00:54.640 These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:00:58.700 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:01:10.340 There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

00:01:18.460 I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

00:01:21.200 We talked about the mental health services app, BetterHelp, on the news roundup the other week,

00:01:28.660 which was in the news because the Federal Trade Commission says the company

00:01:32.160 shared people's personal responses to very personal questions with Facebook and Snapchat,

00:01:38.380 even after their sketchy terms of service said they wouldn't do that.

00:01:42.300 BetterHelp spokespeople did not admit wrongdoing, surprise, surprise,

00:01:45.600 but they did have to pay out $7.8 million to about a million people who use their services,

00:01:52.480 including BetterHelp, but also their apps aimed at specific groups like Pride Counseling for

00:01:57.560 LGBTQ users or Teen Counseling for Youth. And they did agree to stop doing this. So BetterHelp

00:02:03.760 had to pay out an insulting $9.72 for sharing vulnerable people's sensitive information.

00:02:12.340 Listen, we have been a little bit sus about BetterHelp for a while.

00:02:16.000 And for me, it all reached a fever pitch back in 2021.

00:02:20.200 After the Astroworld crowd crush incident in Texas, where 10 people, some of whom were children, died.

00:02:26.660 The organizers announced a partnership with BetterHelp to provide mental health services to the survivors, which just rubbed me the wrong way.

00:02:33.760 So producer Mike and I spoke to Dr. Jeff Gunther, a.k.a. Therapy Jeff, one of TikTok's most trusted therapists, to dig into why.

00:02:43.600 Ten people died, including three children, and hundreds more were injured at rapper Travis Scott's Astroworld Music Festival in Houston, Texas.

00:02:52.680 First-hand video footage on social media shows young people pleading with crew members to stop the performance because people in the crowd were unresponsive.

00:03:00.640 But authorities say Travis Scott continued to perform for 37 minutes after Houston police and

00:03:06.580 firefighters were called to what had been deemed a mass casualty event. Travis Scott even brought

00:03:11.460 out rapper Drake for a guest appearance as many in the crowd screamed for help. It's not clear

00:03:16.600 if Travis Scott knew the severity of the situation, but Scott does have a history of inciting crowds

00:03:21.840 into dangerous behavior at his concerts. He's even faced charges for it at past concerts.

00:03:25.960 And Live Nation, the company behind Astroworld, has a long history of safety violations.

00:03:32.140 Now, the footage coming out of the event is horrifying.

00:03:35.560 And because of Travis Scott's fan base, this was happening to very young people, kids.

00:03:41.340 I was getting winded. I was using all the energy I had left in me,

00:03:44.340 and I came to the point where I was accepting my death.

00:03:47.740 In a statement, Travis Scott says he didn't know people had died until after he'd left the stage.

00:03:52.620 He also announced what he called a partnership with the therapy app BetterHelp

00:03:56.380 to provide a free month of therapy to those impacted by the tragedy.

00:04:00.320 Which on its face may sound great,

00:04:02.460 but BetterHelp has also been called out for its murky policies

00:04:05.280 regarding how they use the data of clients

00:04:07.120 and how they treat mental health services in general.

00:04:10.780 Now, to be clear, I am not an expert on digital health services,

00:04:14.480 but Dr. Michael Amato, our show's producer and chief science officer, is.

00:04:19.660 Michael is a psychologist who does research on digital health interventions,

00:04:23.020 and he leads a data team that supports digital products,

00:04:25.800 which has helped hundreds of thousands of people overcome addiction.

00:04:29.120 Mike and I sat down with Jeff Gunther, a therapist who runs Therapy Den,

00:04:33.320 a resource to match people with diverse therapists,

00:04:35.580 who uses his platform on TikTok to warn people that apps like BetterHelp

00:04:39.460 might not be as good as they seem.

00:04:42.380 I am Jeff Gunther, licensed professional counselor.

00:04:45.940 So Jeff, you run a resource called The Therapy Den,

00:04:48.860 how did this resource come to be? Yeah. So I've been a therapist, a practicing therapist since

00:04:55.920 2005. I started a local therapist directory in Portland. That's where I live. And the Portland

00:05:03.120 therapist directory grew and I learned about what therapists are wanting and what clients are

00:05:09.100 wanting when they're looking for a therapist. Then back like three or four years ago, I used

00:05:13.940 all that knowledge to launch therapyden.com. And it was sort of like meant to counter another huge

00:05:20.660 therapist directory, Psychology Today. Psychology Today, you might be aware of like their magazine,

00:05:27.600 you'll find Psychology Today's magazines like in all of the therapist waiting rooms.

00:05:32.740 One of the things I don't like about their magazine is that basically over the like many,

00:05:38.360 many decades that they've been producing their magazine, they primarily only have very good

00:05:45.180 looking people on the cover, very skinny women that are predominantly white. So there's no

00:05:54.020 diversity on their magazine cover. And that transfers over to their therapist directory,

00:06:01.100 which is sort of like always rankings number one on Google. So they, you can't go to psychology

00:06:08.600 today and find a therapist that is competently trained in racial justice or, and that is

00:06:13.880 competently trained in treating transgender people, or for the longest time you can search

00:06:21.760 therapists by gender and they only had male and female gender. So there was like, I made therapy

00:06:27.960 Den, the Therapy Den directory to kind of like challenge them and force them or encourage them

00:06:33.320 to evolve. And psychology today has been slowly kind of evolving. I don't think that they totally

00:06:40.720 meet the needs of modern clients, but they're doing something about it and I'm happy about that.

00:06:46.340 So Therapy Den was sort of like, all right, I'm going to like try to create this disruptive force

00:06:51.040 in the therapist directory field, which isn't very big. And so that was the main agenda.

00:07:00.340 And then we can get into it. But back in 2015, when BetterHelp and Talkspace started to become

00:07:08.040 a thing, I was like, oh, okay. They're somebody I need to target as well.

00:07:13.580 I know when I was first looking for a therapist a few years ago, I knew that I wanted a Black 0.88

00:07:17.200 woman. And that's partially because I had heard from my Black girlfriends of these awful experiences 1.00

00:07:22.040 of having to spend their time in therapy, you know, educating their white therapist about things

00:07:26.920 like systemic racism. And I knew that I didn't want to do that. But finding a Black woman therapist

00:07:31.700 for me was incredibly difficult. It was like finding a needle in a haystack. Yeah, exactly.

00:07:37.120 That isn't how therapy should be. Like you should not be spending time that you're paying for to

00:07:41.380 educate your therapist on who you are, your culture, your background, the language that

00:07:47.940 you use, where you're coming from, your religion, your ethnicity.

00:07:53.560 So that's why Therapy Den was created so that we can create a ton of filters so that you

00:07:57.800 can figure out how you can find a therapist that already matches with you in lots of different

00:08:04.000 ways.

00:08:06.120 also I've taken a stance on here are a ton of different questions that clients should be asking

00:08:12.280 their therapist in the first session. If you're Black and you're seeing a therapist that's white,

00:08:19.400 you need to ask that therapist, how can you competently treat me? What do you know about my 0.98

00:08:25.080 ethnicity? How do you feel if I'm going to talk about how racist white people are? What do you

00:08:30.520 You think about Black Lives Matters and Alton protests.

00:08:36.560 There's just hundreds of questions that you could ask your therapist to make sure that

00:08:41.380 they're a good fit for you.

00:08:42.380 I don't think that a lot of clients know that they can interview their therapist on that

00:08:47.080 first session and ask that therapist, tell me the specific training that you've received.

00:08:53.420 Talk to me about the supervisors and the consultation groups that you're in so that I know that

00:08:58.920 you can competently treat me. So that's a whole thing. Yeah, I love that you're giving clients

00:09:04.920 and just people, like empowering them with a language and tools to advocate for themselves.

00:09:11.100 I love that. So you talked about your relationship with these therapy apps that have really become

00:09:17.500 ubiquitous in the last few years, things like BetterHelp and Talkspace. You know, when I first

00:09:22.620 heard about these apps, they did really seem like an accessible way for folks to access, like

00:09:27.940 therapists. But so many therapists I've heard from do not like these apps. Can you tell me

00:09:33.340 why that is? Yeah, but let's start there. You're right. The accessibility that these apps

00:09:41.000 have tapped into, it is so incredibly difficult. And I wish it wasn't. It's a systemic issue.

00:09:47.660 But it's so incredibly difficult for somebody to just find a therapist that's a good match for

00:09:51.580 them. There's a ton of searching that you have to do. There's confusing insurance that you have

00:09:56.740 to like wade through um it can be expensive uh there's like a ton of roadblocks so many therapists 0.96

00:10:03.040 are booked especially because everybody in the fucking world decided to get therapy at the same 0.97

00:10:08.340 goddamn time which is totally fine i get it i understand i love that you're getting therapy 0.98

00:10:13.600 um but therapists are so busy so you're just like you even if you find a therapist who's a good 0.97

00:10:21.320 match it's incredibly frustrating because they might not have any openings but then better help

00:10:26.520 Talkspace, Cerebral, other apps like that have come along and they're just like, hey,

00:10:31.600 click a button. We are the Uber of therapy. Download the app, click this button, check the

00:10:37.240 terms of service. Don't worry about reading it. It's confusing anyways. And we will set you up

00:10:41.860 with a therapist. Just any therapist. Is it a good match? I don't know. We hope so. Maybe.

00:10:48.600 But they've tapped into the accessibility part where it's just like, it's so understandable.

00:10:54.340 My people are getting so frustrated.

00:10:56.060 So, of course, they're going to go to these apps, especially like younger people that are used to doing that.

00:11:02.060 Yeah, that is an excellent point that they really did identify a true need that exists out there of it's difficult to find a therapist.

00:11:11.980 And we talk a lot on this show about bad things that the Internet and tech bring to us.

00:11:18.160 But I was talking with Bridget the other day, and one of the things she mentioned was how her favorite stories are about the great things that the internet does to bring people together or help somebody be seen or find whatever it is that they're looking for.

00:11:32.200 And it really seems like they sort of zeroed in on that, and it is a real need that they've addressed.

00:11:39.620 It is. It's a real need.

00:11:41.200 And on the platforms, there are actually amazing therapists.

00:11:46.080 Like, my beef is not with the therapists that are contracted to, like, provide therapy.

00:11:53.520 They are, like, trained to, you know, and licensed, and they're great.

00:12:01.460 So, yeah, they tap into a need, and somebody needed to do it. 0.99

00:12:05.360 And it's because, like, therapists in private practice cannot all get their shit together. 0.95

00:12:11.800 We're all running our own little individual small businesses. 0.92

00:12:14.460 um so we can't all come together and like figure out how to solve this problem and it's not just

00:12:21.500 therapists that need to come together it's just like so many layers of everything that needs to

00:12:25.800 come together in order to fix this so these tech companies which are super savvy they're the ones

00:12:30.300 that did it so bravo i hate you you compared these apps to uber and you know it's one of those things

00:12:36.460 like should getting a therapist should starting the journey to like deal with your trauma unpack 0.73

00:12:42.520 your issues, should that look like an Uber business model that we know has so much exploitation,

00:12:49.280 whether it's the exploitation of drivers, the exploitation of rider details and rider

00:12:53.600 privacy, should that relationship mimic Uber?

00:12:57.940 And I would argue, no, it shouldn't, that accessibility is good.

00:13:01.380 The idea of having a therapist at your fingertips sounds great.

00:13:05.180 But when you actually think about it harder, you're like, wait, should therapy be a similar

00:13:11.140 kind of business framework as something like an Uber where you can get a ride at the push of a

00:13:15.860 button and maybe this driver isn't being treated well and maybe they aren't being super careful with

00:13:20.340 my data. Who knows? I don't know. The answers might be buried in the third page of some,

00:13:24.440 you know, murky privacy document somewhere. Like, I'm not really sure. Should getting into a

00:13:28.760 relationship with a therapist really be the same way that it is when you just like hail a taxi to

00:13:34.240 your home? Yeah. I mean, no, I think not at all. And because like, you know, if someone's driving

00:13:40.680 you from the restaurant to your home like i don't know i guess that person can kind of be anybody as

00:13:48.120 long as they're like good enough you know they're not going to bother you they're going to like be

00:13:53.080 quiet whatever they'll do what they need to do to get you from like point a to point b but when

00:13:57.760 you're looking for a therapist it's not just like are they good enough are they going to like talk

00:14:01.840 to you or listen it's like are they actually qualified to treat you do they understand your

00:14:06.860 experience in a like deep way. And you need to shop around for therapists and talk to multiple

00:14:13.960 therapists in order to find somebody who's a good enough match. And instead of just being handed one

00:14:20.060 like Uber would do or like Talkspace or BetterHelp does. So no, I don't think so. But there are

00:14:27.340 apps and tech companies that like understand that BetterHelp is not doing this well.

00:14:35.560 and somebody else needs to do it better.

00:14:38.700 So there is a newer app that I think is maybe just in Florida or Georgia right now called Hurdle.

00:14:45.400 Have you ever heard of Hurdle?

00:14:46.720 No.

00:14:47.320 Yeah, I just heard about it and they contacted me to let me know about what they're doing.

00:14:53.640 And they contacted me because they were like, hey, can you sponsor us on TikTok?

00:14:58.800 And I said, no, but only because it sort of like conflicts with therapy then

00:15:04.980 where I'm trying to connect people.

00:15:06.640 So it's anyways, I love them and what they're doing,

00:15:10.020 what they've started out doing,

00:15:11.060 where they're like paying therapists well.

00:15:12.840 We should talk about that with BetterHelp

00:15:14.460 because they're not.

00:15:16.920 And they're like making sure that all the therapists

00:15:19.400 on the platform are competently trained

00:15:21.940 in racial justice and social justice

00:15:23.980 and they're trans competent and queer competent

00:15:26.220 and they're continuously going through trainings.

00:15:30.120 And so like they're doing it the right way.

00:15:32.400 So there are apps and services out there that are starting to do it the right way.

00:15:36.920 But BetterHelp and Talkspace, they're like these first movers that have amazing marketing, especially BetterHelp.

00:15:46.360 And yeah, so it might be hard to compete with them.

00:15:53.100 It's interesting that you say that they have better marketing, you know, because I've looked at your TikToks.

00:15:59.400 talks and uh i think one of the big criticisms is how they harvest people's data and use it for

00:16:07.720 marketing and advertising and uh you know i clicked through i read their privacy form and yeah they're

00:16:14.440 just using all of your data including your communications with your counselor uh for

00:16:19.880 third-party marketing and so it made me wonder like how much of their business model is actual

00:16:26.520 therapy delivery and how much are they in advertising company exactly yes they get so

00:16:32.100 much amazing personal data on your mental health information who you are when was your you know

00:16:39.020 are you suicidal when was your last suicide attempt how much money do you make uh where do

00:16:44.500 you live um what are your pronouns what's your sexual orientation uh what's your gender like

00:16:51.200 They get the most detailed information about how often you're talking to your therapist, if you're meeting your therapist's goal, if you're meeting your counseling goals.

00:17:01.420 So much stuff.

00:17:03.700 Incredibly valuable.

00:17:04.960 I don't know how much money they make off of it or if they make any money off it or if they're making all of their money off of that.

00:17:11.660 But that information is incredibly valuable.

00:17:14.740 And they were a little bit more clear a few months ago when I made one of my first TikTok videos about them and going through their privacy policy about all the information that they collect.

00:17:27.620 since I sort of like exposed them and it got, you know, over a million views of their like

00:17:33.080 privacy policy and they've changed their privacy policy to make it so much more vague and so much

00:17:40.240 more confusing and actually gives them so much more leeway when it comes to like sharing your

00:17:45.880 data. They can share your data with their corporate partners. Do you know who their corporate

00:17:49.600 partners are? Fuck no. Who the fuck knows? I have no idea. They don't list them. They can share it 1.00

00:17:54.640 with their ad network, you know who's in their ad network? 0.96

00:17:57.260 I have no fucking idea, probably a ton of people. 0.58

00:18:01.760 They can use it for marketing purposes 0.98

00:18:04.680 and whatever the hell they want to use it for.

00:18:07.920 So we don't know why, what they're using it for exactly.

00:18:10.320 We don't know who they're sharing it with.

00:18:11.580 We don't know how much money they're making off of it.

00:18:13.800 And the only way that you can use their app

00:18:17.240 is if you check off the terms of service,

00:18:19.260 which like allows them to use all this information.

00:18:23.320 Um, I would love it if they gave you an option to not like sell your data on my like HBO Max

00:18:30.660 subscription. There's a little checkbox that says, are we allowed? Can we like use your third party

00:18:35.500 data? And I can just be like, nope, BetterHelp doesn't do that. And why would they ever do it?

00:18:39.380 Because they're probably making a ton of money. Something else that I'd like to mention is that,

00:18:43.740 you know, they're able to sell your information to third parties. And so if they sold your

00:18:49.720 information to a company like Facebook, Ben, you think about all the different data that we know

00:18:54.660 that Facebook is able to collect combined with whatever they have from your relationship with

00:18:59.700 your counselor through BetterHelp, it becomes clearer. We're not talking about little bits

00:19:04.700 and pieces of data. They really can mine and harvest a real composite portrait of who you are

00:19:11.580 and sell that for profit. And I just fundamentally believe that that is not how a relationship with

00:19:19.260 a mental health specialist should look. And to me, there is not another word for that other than

00:19:23.860 like exploitation. And like, I guess I really see it as this kind of capitalistic mining of the most

00:19:32.480 sensitive stuff about us so that corporate interests can get fatter pockets. And it's

00:19:38.440 just so depressing and demoralizing. Oh God, it is. It really is.

00:19:46.580 Let's take a quick break.

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00:20:35.480 That's 844-844-iHeart. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your

00:20:41.100 personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club,

00:20:48.220 part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives,

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00:21:35.960 See you between the pages.

00:21:42.960 at our back. So you might be thinking, what about HIPAA? The Health Insurance Portability

00:21:48.920 and Accountability Act, a law that created national standards to protect patient health

00:21:53.260 information from being disclosed without consent. Doesn't HIPAA prevent our health information from

00:21:57.960 being used to sell things? In this case, the answer is not really. Our producer Mike works

00:22:03.360 with health information, and that means he spends a lot of time dealing with HIPAA. Here's what he

00:22:07.840 had to say. I work within the constraints of HIPAA every day, and I think it's probably one

00:22:12.260 of the most misunderstood laws in America. People think HIPAA protects all of their health

00:22:16.520 information all of the time, but it doesn't. HIPAA only applies to a very narrow set of actors and

00:22:22.260 circumstances. Basically, it applies to health care providers and their contractors. Better

00:22:28.180 health is neither of those things. In a page on their website, convincingly titled Online Therapy

00:22:33.140 Services, Are They Legit? They repeatedly use phrases like HIPAA-compliant therapists.

00:22:39.580 What they don't say is that the therapists are bound by HIPAA because they're providing health care,

00:22:43.700 but Better Health The Platform is not because they aren't providing health care.

00:22:47.060 They're simply connecting you with the providers,

00:22:49.740 and so they are bound only by the terms of service you accept by creating an account.

00:22:54.680 HIPAA was signed into law in 1996,

00:22:57.160 around the same time Bill Clinton was describing the internet as an information superhighway.

00:23:01.860 Its authors never imagined all the ways the internet would revolutionize how we access health care.

00:23:07.020 And so we've come to this place where most Americans believe their private health information is legally protected, but that's just not always true.

00:23:14.780 In reality, many of the digital services we use have no greater legal obligation to protect information about our health than information about what TV shows we like to watch or what types of sneakers we want to buy.

00:23:26.320 So the question is, are we okay with for-profit tech companies like BetterHelp setting the precedent around privacy and digital health services?

00:23:34.440 Because that's where we're at.

00:23:35.420 And one of the questions that I get all the time, because you're right, they know you intimately, like so many things about you. And the question I get is like, how is this not a HIPAA violation? What is making this okay?

00:23:51.160 So if you are my client and you're seeing me in my private practice, I'm your therapist, all the notes that I write on you is actually your property.

00:24:02.460 That's all yours.

00:24:03.260 You can go to your therapist.

00:24:04.500 You can be like, give me my notes.

00:24:06.360 And a therapist legally has to hand that over to you.

00:24:10.020 That's all of your medical information.

00:24:11.980 We need to give it.

00:24:12.660 So if my client came in and was like, Jeff, give me all of the notes you've been keeping

00:24:18.420 on me, and I give it over to them, they could take all that mental health information and

00:24:23.800 they could sell it to an advertiser.

00:24:26.000 They can give it to Facebook.

00:24:27.880 As a client, you can do whatever you want with your medical information.

00:24:31.940 And that's what's happening when you sign up for BetterHelp.

00:24:34.260 You're saying, okay, all of the information that I'm providing to this therapist is mine,

00:24:40.540 now I'm giving it to you, BetterHelp. You can do whatever you want with it. So that's another way

00:24:45.720 that they're able to get around it. And so one of my big things was like, oh, you know what? I bet I

00:24:50.060 can fuck over BetterHelp. If I can go to the state licensing boards in all of the states, 0.99

00:24:58.160 I'd start with California and New York and be like, okay, y'all. Therapists are seeing these

00:25:05.480 clients and they know that the client information that we like ethically, legally have to keep

00:25:11.440 confidential is being given to BetterHelp and given to like advertisers. Should these therapists

00:25:18.220 be allowed to provide therapy on BetterHelp? Should these therapists be disciplined or have

00:25:22.380 their license taken away? Not that I want to get those licenses taken away, but maybe I can like

00:25:26.880 put pressure on BetterHelp. And the problem is, is that like what I just mentioned, it's the client

00:25:34.440 information and they can hand it over there also is somebody something in hipaa where like hipaa

00:25:40.320 is just like everything has to stay confidential unless maybe it's used for marketing purposes and

00:25:45.780 it's anonymized so like they also have that like gray area there's so many things that are

00:25:52.020 protecting better health it seems though that like stepping back to harvest all of this personal

00:25:59.780 information about somebody's mental health and then use it to make advertising revenue it just

00:26:05.540 feels wrong right like oh there's that yeah it just doesn't sit well it just doesn't feel okay

00:26:13.860 um that shouldn't be happening obviously like if i was your therapist now anonymizing your

00:26:18.900 info and selling it to advertisers i would lose my license uh and i should um that just shouldn't

00:26:24.660 be a part of the therapy process. But we're in this funky, weird, shitty, capitalist, whatever 0.87

00:26:31.300 time where that's okay and they're incredibly protected and they're going to probably continue 0.95

00:26:36.260 to do that. And BetterHelp is, they interacted with me a little bit by leaving some comments

00:26:42.660 on some of my TikTok videos and now they're just ignoring me, which is probably a very good business

00:26:48.740 decision on their end because like who the fuck am I I don't know I mean you did like your TikToks 0.73

00:26:55.960 had an impact when you were describing how they changed their you know their privacy policy I for 0.97

00:27:01.400 a hot second I thought you were going to say they you know because of my TikToks I got millions of

00:27:05.640 views and they changed their privacy policy for the better but then it was like oh they just made

00:27:09.680 it even more vague no because of me I made it worse for everybody but like pointing this out 0.62

00:27:17.080 They're just like, cool, we need to be real fucking shady now.

00:27:19.740 So you're welcome, America. 0.94

00:27:22.240 When I saw the news out of Texas, it had a really deep impact on me in a way that I almost can't even articulate why.

00:27:31.040 There was something about the videos that were coming out of it that just really hit me in a way that, you know, you think that you're desensitized to tragedy and disaster.

00:27:40.760 But something about those videos really stuck with me.

00:27:44.080 And I think seeing, like, the live stream with an Apple logo on it where I knew that young people were facing really scary circumstances, I really can't shake the deep, disturbed way that that, how disturbing that was to me.

00:28:03.440 Like, I don't know why I've not been able to sort of, like, move past it, but I have not.

00:28:07.800 And when I woke up again and saw that Travis Scott was partnering with BetterHelp, that really, it just seemed like a cherry on top of this exploitation cake where these young people had really been deeply exploited in the deepest, deepest ways for profit to make money for corporate interests, whether we're talking about Live Nation, Travis Scott, the organizers, Apple streaming platforms, whatever.

00:28:34.180 And then in the aftermath of that horrific, traumatic tragedy, what they were being offered was just another way to serve them up to be further mined and exploited.

00:28:46.100 And it was like it broke my brain.

00:28:48.320 I couldn't even conceptualize the depths to how broken so many systems are, where that's the thing they're being offered.

00:28:55.560 And even still one month of it.

00:28:57.420 So it's like it's already shitty what they're being offered, but it's not even that long.

00:29:00.780 Some of these kids probably have, like, complex PTSD.

00:29:04.380 It takes longer than a month to treat that.

00:29:06.680 What were your thoughts on that partnership? 0.99

00:29:10.460 Yeah, garbage. 1.00

00:29:12.340 I thought it was a dumpster fire. 0.93

00:29:13.500 I thought it was, I felt the same way that you felt.

00:29:16.400 So, yeah, it's like a bunch of, you know, corporations creating trauma and then sending those traumatized kids to BetterHelp where they're going to, like, mine their data and make a ton of money.

00:29:28.420 It was disturbing.

00:29:29.840 It was upsetting.

00:29:30.780 And it reminded me of when BetterHelp used to, I still think they kind of do this, but back in like 2018, 2019, they were going to all the therapist directories out there that attract, you know, the clients that are looking for therapists.

00:29:44.980 And they were just trying to like either buy them up or quote unquote partner with them in order to like take all of their business and like direct those users into the BetterHelp ecosystem.

00:29:57.980 them. And so they approached me when I launched Therapy Den, and they're like, hey, can we

00:30:05.280 go ahead and take therapist profiles and add them to your directory so that if any of

00:30:12.380 the people that are using your directory, they could find one of our BetterHelp therapists

00:30:18.280 and then create services or start therapy with them.

00:30:22.520 And every time somebody signs up for BetterHelp through Therapy Den, we'll pay you $300, which

00:30:32.900 is a ton of money because they're like, you could potentially make $80,000 a month because

00:30:38.580 we've had this deal, created this deal with other therapist directories that are the same

00:30:43.320 size as yours.

00:30:45.160 And I know those therapist directories and I know the owners and some of them are buddies

00:30:48.680 of mine.

00:30:49.680 talking to them about like what went on and those therapist directories were like basically

00:30:54.720 taken over and just used as like a funnel in order to like, you know, get even more

00:30:59.920 people to sign up for better help.

00:31:02.680 So you don't really own your therapist director anymore.

00:31:05.360 They just sort of like take it over because they put thousands and thousands, 20,000 different

00:31:10.540 like therapist profiles or something like on on your directory.

00:31:16.040 It's also like therapy done is about like matching people with like a good, competent therapist that you know is a good fit.

00:31:23.380 And BetterHelp can't do that at all.

00:31:25.080 It's a therapy mill.

00:31:27.700 So it didn't feel okay.

00:31:29.540 I would like lose control.

00:31:31.040 Like it just didn't feel like a good match at all.

00:31:33.320 And I like started to, that's when I started to like really learn about their privacy policy and the data mining and shit like that.

00:31:38.660 And I would imagine that like all of the marketing that they do that BetterHelp does and all the podcasts and NPR and shit like that, all of those companies are probably getting like a very nice kickback because BetterHelp was like, hey, on average, we make $1,200.

00:31:54.540 We bring in $1,200 when somebody signs up for BetterHelp.

00:31:58.620 We are very much willing to like pay you $300 when we collect $1,200. 0.99

00:32:04.540 Also, we're going to pay the therapist shit. 0.98

00:32:06.820 so like it's not even like we have like too much of an overhead cost you talk about how the 0.99

00:32:11.980 therapists are just not only are they not paid what like like a comparable amount that they can

00:32:18.740 make in private practice or elsewhere but also you know they're i learned from your tiktoks they're

00:32:23.300 sometimes paid by the word and so once they hit their word count they kind of have to decide if

00:32:27.940 they want to continue treating a client who very well may be in crisis basically out of the goodness

00:32:32.460 of their heart because they care about this client for free um clients can access their

00:32:37.480 therapist 24 hours a day seven days a week which sounds really good in theory but then you're like

00:32:42.840 should you have access to a therapist 24 7 i would say no that maybe you should have some

00:32:48.540 some boundaries around how you access your therapist it's kind of stunning to hear about

00:32:53.400 how much money they must be taking in via how much money gets spent gets given to their actual

00:33:00.840 therapists who are like doing the work of sustaining this platform yeah 100 i mean the

00:33:05.980 therapists are getting maybe around 30 a little less than 30 an hour um ideally if you're a

00:33:11.860 therapist and you're seeing clients you want to get at least 100 an hour that's what we're like

00:33:15.500 aiming for if not more if you live in like more expensive cities um but better help is like we

00:33:22.500 will pay you up to $50 an hour if you work more hours per week. So if you work up to 50 hours a

00:33:31.680 week, you'll get our top pay, which is fucking bonkers. I don't even understand why that's a 0.94

00:33:39.240 pay scale that exists. Like work 15 hours, get $30 or less an hour, work up to 50 hours a week

00:33:46.040 more. I don't know. That's a whole fucking thing. I hate that. And then it's, they pay you based on

00:33:51.520 word count. So you can't go over the word count that they like provide. If you do start like

00:33:57.040 providing more support, if you start texting more support and going over the word count, 0.99

00:34:02.200 you're working for fucking free therapist. They're not going to pay you for it. So maybe 0.99

00:34:06.300 they're paying you $30 an hour, but it's actually a lot less if you like feel like you need to give

00:34:11.040 even more support to that client. And of course, just like Uber and Lyft or whatever, like you're

00:34:17.300 not getting benefits, you're a contract, you're not like getting paid time off, you know,

00:34:22.200 like you have to provide all of your equipment and, you know, so it's just like, it's a bunch 0.95

00:34:27.020 of bullshit that therapists are getting exploited and they're able to exploit these therapists 0.93

00:34:32.460 that are usually like fresh out of grad school or just looking for a little part-time work 0.99

00:34:36.760 or something.

00:34:37.880 And yeah, 24 hour access to a therapist, clinically, no, not okay.

00:34:42.580 That's not creating self-reliance.

00:34:44.200 you need to be able to kind of like go and do your thing and then be able to check back with

00:34:48.300 your therapist. I understand why that's appealing though, but imagine, understand that that therapist

00:34:53.240 with a caseload of like 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 clients a week, they're getting pinged all the fucking 0.99

00:35:00.240 time. So there's no way that a therapist is able, but like a therapist must, has to, it's in their 0.97

00:35:06.040 contract, that they have to respond within 24 hours, no matter what day or time it is, which is

00:35:13.520 not uh very realistic plus um there's this like thing where like if there's if better health has

00:35:19.900 like a flood of people signing up they're like okay i know that you have a ton of clients but

00:35:24.100 will you take these new clients we'll pay you more for these new clients which sort of incentivizes

00:35:29.080 therapists to drop their old clients they're not getting paid enough for in the first place 1.00

00:35:33.280 to then take the new clients it's such a stupid fucked up system i hate it can you tell it's so 1.00

00:35:41.000 fucked up and this is not how therapy therapy is meant to be this is not how it should look to 1.00

00:35:45.540 access mental health care and you know in the wake of the astral world thing it's like it is a it's 0.97

00:35:52.060 like an exploitation layer cake where the clients the potential clients are going to be exploited

00:35:56.860 the therapists running the site are being exploited everybody's being exploited except for

00:36:01.580 the tech overlords who like are possibly like making money from the people that are being

00:36:07.740 referred from this tragedy honestly talking to you has helped me make sense of why it made me

00:36:12.740 so deeply deeply angry and disgusted like i had such a visceral reaction also just the use of the

00:36:18.740 word partnership like you know using this tragedy as a branding opportunity i really found it deeply

00:36:26.140 deeply like just disgusting and i think talking to you has really made it so clear that yeah that

00:36:33.720 That wasn't, that wasn't, I was almost about to say like an irrational response. 0.99

00:36:37.140 That was a rational response because it is really fucked up and it is really disgusting. 1.00

00:36:40.840 Yeah. 0.99

00:36:41.840 It's a very rational response to a very irrational thing that's occurring totally.

00:36:47.660 You described all these numbers of like caseloads of 40 or 50 patients a week, which like, what

00:36:53.180 a joke.

00:36:54.180 How can you be providing like high quality of care?

00:36:56.220 I haven't heard you say anything about like the evaluation process or, you know, any sort

00:37:01.960 of quality control.

00:37:03.380 you know if they do? Like, I just have to imagine that the quality of care that patients are

00:37:09.240 receiving is pretty low with a caseload like that. But is that something that they look at or measure

00:37:14.860 or talk about? Yeah, I don't know. It's a good question. I've never come across any sort of like

00:37:20.640 data or survey about the quality of care. So I don't know. And I just feel I feel bad for

00:37:29.300 everybody involved. I feel really bad for the therapists that are getting burnt out that are

00:37:32.980 kind of like forced to work longer or more hours. And this is, I don't know. I don't know if I can

00:37:40.860 say this. So, well, whatever. Maybe we'll cut it out. But there's, how can I say this? If you want

00:37:50.560 to, if you're somebody that's seeing a better health therapist and you really like your

00:37:55.880 therapist, because there's a ton of really great therapists on there, and this conversation is

00:38:00.160 upsetting or disturbing you. If you wanted to ask your BetterHelp therapist if they have their own

00:38:07.180 private practice and they are accepting clients, then that's something you can ask them and you

00:38:15.040 can talk to them about. The BetterHelp therapists, obviously, are not allowed to be like, I have a

00:38:20.300 private practice if you want to see me there. And even pay me, if you pay that therapist the same

00:38:26.440 amount that you're giving BetterHelp, then what their hourly rate has doubled or tripled,

00:38:32.200 you know, by that time. So because I get a lot of like feedback like, oh, but I love my BetterHelp

00:38:38.760 therapist. Well, stick with that BetterHelp therapist. I'm so happy for you. Also, maybe

00:38:43.560 you can like see them in their private practice and get out of like BetterHelp if you want to.

00:38:47.980 I think I can say that. I'm pretty sure. Yeah, I think that's good advice because it sounds like

00:38:53.620 you're being so clear that you're not trying to say that BetterHelp doesn't have great kick-ass

00:38:58.520 therapists on the platform, but that the platform itself does not support these therapists for

00:39:03.440 giving the best quality of care that they can. And so there might be other ways to access that

00:39:08.640 same therapist that you might love who is on BetterHelp in a way where they're not being sort

00:39:13.460 of set up to give you not as good of care as you could be getting otherwise. Right, exactly.

00:39:19.200 And your therapist in their private practice probably won't sell all your personal mental health information to advertisers.

00:39:28.280 Most likely, they are not going to do that.

00:39:34.700 More after a quick break.

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00:39:57.880 about podcasting think again more americans listen to podcasts than ad supported streaming

00:40:02.900 music from spotify and pandora and as the number one podcaster iheart's twice as large as the next

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00:40:24.600 iheartadvertising.com if your bookshelf and your for you page are equally important to your

00:40:29.880 personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club,

00:40:37.280 part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride

00:40:41.520 and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week

00:40:46.700 we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't

00:40:51.200 stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. From best-selling

00:40:56.500 authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments nothing is off the

00:41:01.440 table it's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters and that is a trojan

00:41:08.820 horse whether you're looking for literary deep dives smart pop culture conversations or a

00:41:14.120 community of readers who love to think a little too much you're in the right place listen to pro

00:41:19.460 society on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts see you between the

00:41:25.660 pages. Let's get right back into it. Now, I'm not the only one who has a problem with BetterHelp's

00:41:36.200 partnership with Travis Scott in the wake of the Astroworld tragedy. The response has not been

00:41:41.420 good, and BetterHelp is working in overtime to correct what they're calling misinformation

00:41:46.440 about their platform. Now, it's worth noting that BetterHelp waited until the partnership

00:41:51.800 got negative reactions online to clarify pretty basic details about the arrangement.

00:41:57.480 Frankly, making patient protection seem like kind of an afterthought.

00:42:01.720 They released an FAQ where they say that people who use the free month of BetterHelp services

00:42:06.460 will not be billed after that month is up.

00:42:09.640 And they say that Travis Scott isn't making any money from the partnership.

00:42:13.440 Now, I've heard a lot of tech company corporate doublespeak in my day,

00:42:17.480 and I'd like the company to clarify whether this also pertains to any business

00:42:21.520 or philanthropic entities Travis Scott might be affiliated with.

00:42:25.260 They also answer the frequently asked question,

00:42:27.720 is information members enter on Better Health

00:42:30.180 ever sold to advertising platforms or third parties?

00:42:33.760 Now they answer this with an emphatic no, period.

00:42:37.440 But that can't be the whole story

00:42:38.940 because on their own privacy policy,

00:42:41.060 in the section called purposes for which information is used,

00:42:43.920 they say your information may be used to, quote,

00:42:47.000 personalized website experience,

00:42:48.580 including targeted offers and ads throughout our websites, third-party sites, and via email or text

00:42:54.740 message. They also say, quote, we may share your information with any subsidiaries or parent

00:43:00.800 companies within our corporate group. So who are these other companies in their corporate group?

00:43:05.580 And what products are being advertised? Is Better Health using your personal mental information to

00:43:10.400 buy ads or sell ads? Why rely on such vague language when discussing something as important

00:43:16.480 as our health and privacy. I believe Better Health is intentionally exploiting vague language in gray

00:43:22.220 areas and their privacy policies to mislead the public, which under normal circumstances is bad.

00:43:27.860 But it's especially egregious to do that after a tragedy. Do you feel like the public is owed a

00:43:33.960 little bit of transparency about this partnership? I feel like especially given that the folks who

00:43:39.600 were at that festival are like, a lot of them are young people. I feel like it is a public,

00:43:44.960 like a public good for BetterHelp and or Travis Scott to say, hey, we're doing this therapy

00:43:50.420 partnership for folks who were impacted by this tragedy. Here's who's making money on it. Here's

00:43:56.640 how your data is going to be used. Whether Travis Scott, BetterHelp, or both are making some sort

00:44:04.200 of like cut or kickback, do you feel like it's in the public interest for us to have that

00:44:09.320 like information in a transparent way oh my god 100 yes and like in my most recent tiktok video

00:44:15.860 that's on twitter and everywhere else uh i'm saying that like what's going on like let's be

00:44:22.480 clear here who's getting paid uh do how do you continue care after that one month how much is

00:44:30.040 it going to cost in order to like continue like there's it's just all so murky uh so yeah i would

00:44:35.980 love if there was more transparency around it. But the way that BetterHelp operates is just like

00:44:40.360 they're very good at like making shit real vague. And unfortunately, whenever I push against them 0.96

00:44:45.800 or anyone pushes up against them, they just get even more vague and more vague and get into that

00:44:49.640 gray area. So hopefully this will like get more people to become concerned and ask them to be

00:44:56.100 more transparent about what they're doing and the deal that's being set up with Travis Scott.

00:44:59.640 I just feel like we're in this age where technology that is meant to be a wellness-focused thing or a mental health-focused thing, we're in this weird gray area where everything feels kind of scammy and not really regulated.

00:45:15.320 And so we have all of these apps that are sort of mental health ish or like wellness ish or like medical care ish.

00:45:24.760 And you just have to act like, are these regulated? Are they safe?

00:45:28.320 Am I actually getting good information from like a competent, trained medical health professional?

00:45:32.700 I wonder, like, do you feel the same way that we're in this sort of wild west where there are so many tech platforms offering us wellness or, you know, medical care, but in this very gray area way where they can sort of avoid having to answer some of these questions about, you know, the quality of care that you're actually getting?

00:45:52.720 oh yeah for sure and and they're so savvy they're so slick they know exactly what they're doing

00:46:00.160 so you just kind of like give this like these ish services and it works well enough and also

00:46:06.420 you know uh all these like podcasts or mpr or whoever like it's such a good look for them like

00:46:14.560 oh therapy you know like it looks like they're it's so nice to quote-unquote partner with them

00:46:20.600 because it sort of, like, lifts their brand up, you know?

00:46:24.060 So it's just, like, this feel-good, lovely thing,

00:46:26.680 but we don't know what's going on, like, right behind the scenes. 1.00

00:46:30.060 And NPR, fuck you, NPR. 0.99

00:46:32.480 They're like, I hate that NPR is, like, running ads all over the place. 1.00

00:46:38.380 I mean, it's all over Oregon with, like, NPR and OPB over here,

00:46:42.200 where they're just, like, constantly hearing about their help.

00:46:44.180 And I'm emailing NPR and Oregon Public Broadcast.

00:46:47.360 I'm, like, letting them know, like, I want to be on your show. 0.99

00:46:49.720 this is not okay if you understood the values of this company you would have a fucking aneurysm 0.82

00:46:54.860 about it but like oh they're not responding to me and they're not doing anything about it so it's 0.62

00:47:01.300 this weird like halo effect that happens when they do partner with these better help and like yeah

00:47:06.140 no yeah i don't know i'm agreeing with everything that you're saying so yeah yeah and it's i mean

00:47:11.320 you've said a mouthful and i i know in the podcast space specifically that better help has a it's

00:47:18.500 like one of those ubiquitous brands that you hear if you listen to podcasts you've definitely heard

00:47:21.760 a BetterHelp ad and I have you know friends and colleagues who I'm sure do BetterHelp ads and I'm

00:47:27.040 not trying to like call anybody out but I also feel like you have to take a little bit of

00:47:32.860 responsibility for the for like not so it's not just a financial arrangement where they pay you

00:47:39.680 and you read the ad but if you sound like you're endorsing their their values and endorsing their

00:47:45.160 practices and if you're using your like mpr voice to make this service seem really good and

00:47:52.260 progressive and like a good like a good idea like i do think we have to step back and ask some hard

00:47:58.220 questions of ourselves about whether or not we're allowing brands whose values do not align with our

00:48:04.780 own to be kind of brand washed by our like you know slick podcaster voice or you know or be like

00:48:12.460 the relationship that podcast listeners have with their hosts, right? I feel like it exploits

00:48:18.380 the connection that listeners have with their favorite podcast host to make brands that are

00:48:26.340 not so good seem like they're actually aligned with their values, I guess.

00:48:32.020 You said it totally, 100%. I keep on saying it, but BetterHelp has one of the best marketing

00:48:38.800 teams i've ever seen they're so good and they know exactly when to turn off their comments on 1.00

00:48:44.500 tiktok videos because like oh they're totally fucking off because like all the tiktokers are 0.92

00:48:51.640 just like whoa we don't like this this is like thank you jeff for like being transparent and 0.99

00:48:56.200 like like explaining their privacy policy we're going to spam all their tiktok videos and you 0.90

00:49:01.380 can't they block everybody like they know how to turn all that shit off um so yeah i think 0.64

00:49:08.920 podcasters and everyone with their npr voices like really need to think about and also like 0.98

00:49:13.660 i fucking guarantee all these podcasters are not getting their therapy through better help 0.71

00:49:19.000 like no way are they actually doing that uh so yeah you got me over held up i agree it's 0.98

00:49:27.800 interesting you mentioned the you know the halo effect there and it you know

00:49:31.100 this moment that we're in where there are all these potentially scammy ish

00:49:35.720 mental health services and it's it's like mental health it's only sort of

00:49:42.860 recently become a thing that we all are talking about and acknowledging as like

00:49:48.040 something that needs to be dealt with but it's still like a very private

00:49:51.440 personal thing and I wonder if that like contributes to

00:49:57.800 the the viability of scams like this what you know maybe it's a scam maybe it's not but like

00:50:04.600 when an actor is going to participate in delivering mental health services but not respect

00:50:12.200 that like privacy piece of it and just you know completely violate those norms in pursuit

00:50:17.720 of profit uh it's a pretty dangerous tech enabled place one of the good things is that

00:50:24.120 that it's sort of like breaking,

00:50:26.560 mental health stigma is like reducing.

00:50:30.640 So that's also one of the things

00:50:32.480 that's like a good thing that's happening.

00:50:34.400 But at what cost?

00:50:37.060 Because there's like so much information and data sharing

00:50:41.300 and like ads being directed more towards you because of this.

00:50:44.240 So like yay for accessibility,

00:50:46.520 yay for like destigmatization.

00:50:49.640 Um, but like, this is like profiting these huge tech companies so much and it's so upsetting

00:50:56.580 and it's so disturbing and we need to talk even more about it. 0.60

00:51:02.940 Well, I mean, so we, we, we don't fuck with Better Health, but as we know, like it can

00:51:09.400 be so hard to get access to a therapist.

00:51:11.420 So like, what are some alternatives to services like Better Health that might be a little

00:51:16.800 less scammy and exploitative?

00:51:19.340 if folks out there want to access mental health services

00:51:22.660 but don't know where to start?

00:51:24.940 I mean, I'm biased, but I love therapydem.com.

00:51:30.000 Start there.

00:51:31.120 There's another therapist directory that I am in love with,

00:51:34.880 inclusivetherapists.com.

00:51:37.720 Same sort of vibe and mission and values as therapydem.com.

00:51:44.060 The thing is, is like you kind of have to be okay

00:51:48.860 or accepting of the fact that, like, this is going to be a journey for you.

00:51:54.740 Finding a therapist is going to take some time.

00:51:57.420 And the reason it's going to take time is because you need to find somebody

00:52:00.060 who's a really good match and who can competently treat you.

00:52:04.060 So you're going to have to, like, interview three, four, five,

00:52:07.500 ten therapists possibly to, like, find somebody who's a good match for you. 0.98

00:52:11.300 It's grueling and it sucks and I don't like it.

00:52:13.940 But starting with therapyden.com, inclusivetherapist.com,

00:52:16.720 Even just like Googling somebody, you know, like trying or going to psychologytoday.com to like go through their therapist directory, find a therapist that's in private practice.

00:52:28.680 You'll like the quality of care is through the roof compared to the quality of care that you get from BetterHelp just because of the way that BetterHelp is like set up.

00:52:41.640 So have some patience.

00:52:44.320 Really educate yourself.

00:52:45.800 ask all the questions that you want, like, how can you competently train you? What's your

00:52:51.400 background? But also, like, if you want, you can be like, are you married? Do you have kids? Are

00:52:57.040 you from this city? Where do you hang out? What do you think about? Like, who's your favorite sports

00:53:04.880 team? Do you garden? Whatever the fuck you want. Like, ask all the questions. Therapists don't

00:53:10.640 have to answer all these questions. But I want you to ask all the questions that will make you

00:53:14.860 feel more comfortable um talking to that therapist ask them like do you diagnose what do you think

00:53:20.180 my diagnosis might be what is treatment going to look like um are you cool uh whatever you need to

00:53:26.980 do uh so you need to start therapy.com wherever the hell you want to start and then understand 0.70

00:53:33.740 that you have to like go on a journey honestly if it was not for your tiktoks i would not have known

00:53:38.940 any of this like i i don't think there's a lot of resources out there to help people understand

00:53:44.600 companies or platforms like better health and so i'm so i'm so glad that you're making the content

00:53:50.380 that you are because i think that you're helping people take ownership over there or you're

00:53:55.200 empowering people to advocate for themselves and take ownership over how they access these

00:54:00.380 services and so i'm so grateful for you uh where can folks keep up with you yeah so you can look

00:54:06.880 for Search for Therapy Den on TikTok and Twitter and Instagram.

00:54:13.420 I am also, I produce a podcast called Swoon, Love Lessons with Julie and Gina.

00:54:19.300 So Julie and Gina are sex therapists and experts.

00:54:24.020 And every now and then I'll hop on and be on a podcast episode with them.

00:54:29.500 So you can find me there talking, like giving love advice.

00:54:33.020 I'm amazing at giving love advice.

00:54:35.420 So that's where you can find me.

00:54:40.220 And you can personally email me at hello at therapydem.com if you have any questions.

00:54:45.240 The Astroworld disaster has turned into a hotbed of conspiracy theories.

00:54:48.820 In our next episode, we'll hear from researcher Abby Richards about why this tragedy has resulted in satanic panic on social media platforms like TikTok.

00:55:01.440 Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi?

00:55:05.080 You can reach us at hello at tangody.com.

00:55:07.340 You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangody.com.

00:55:10.740 There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me, Bridget Todd.

00:55:13.500 It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

00:55:16.200 Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.

00:55:18.260 Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer.

00:55:20.880 Michael Amato is our contributing producer.

00:55:22.880 I'm your host, Bridget Todd.

00:55:24.700 If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

00:55:28.280 For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,

00:55:31.320 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:55:34.560 if your bookshelf and your for you page are equally important to your personality

00:55:50.240 welcome home pro society is a weekly podcast that's part book club part group chat for anyone

00:55:56.440 who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse each week

00:56:00.960 we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture

00:56:04.020 with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.

00:56:08.780 Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

00:56:10.540 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:56:16.600 I survived nine months in captivity,

00:56:19.840 and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:56:25.220 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.

00:56:28.520 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

00:56:36.480 These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:56:40.320 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:56:58.520 The show is famously super accessible, so you can easily jump into any of our 650 episodes and understand what's going on.

00:57:07.360 We recommend some of our recent episodes with Ben Stiller, Danny McBride, Riz Ahmed, and Mary Steenburgen.

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00:57:18.060 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:57:20.940 Guaranteed human.

There Are No Girls on the Internet - May 28, 2024

BetterHelp is everywhere. Can we trust it？ - BEST OF TANGOTI

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