There Are No Girls on the Internet - Dave Chapelle isn’t “cancelled.” But a pregnant, Black, trans staffer was fired in the wake of his Netflix fallout

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00:00:55.400 Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:01:04.060 Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.

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00:01:19.460 I survived nine months in captivity, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive

00:01:26.780 what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files.

00:01:32.380 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled,

00:01:38.200 and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

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00:01:52.000 Just a quick heads up, this episode was filmed while I was on medical bed rest, so it might sound a little bit different in terms of sound quality than the rest of our episodes.

00:02:04.560 There are no girls on the internet as a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

00:02:08.340 i'm bridget todd and this is there are no girls on the internet

00:02:15.460 after the release of dave chapelle's new comedy special the closer on netflix

00:02:21.940 netflix staffers and their allies spoke up about the special's transphobic material

00:02:26.220 and organized a walkout chapelle doubled down in a newly released clip where he said

00:02:31.800 netflix staff said they wanted a safer work environment but that he's the only one who's

00:02:36.240 not able to get into the building at Netflix anymore.

00:02:38.520 It seems like I'm the only one that can't go to the office anymore.

00:02:42.580 But you want to know someone who most definitely cannot get back into the Netflix building? 1.00

00:02:46.800 Bea Pagelsminer, a very pregnant Black trans former program manager who Netflix fired for 0.62

00:02:52.340 alleging they were the source of a Bloomberg article about just how much money Netflix

00:02:56.900 spent on the special.

00:02:58.540 Now, Bea disputes this, as do their co-workers.

00:03:01.160 And even after Bee was fired, Bloomberg continues to publish new internal metrics from Netflix, making it even more unlikely.

00:03:09.080 Bee, along with Tara Field, a trans-Netflix senior software engineer who was suspended for tweeting critically about the special, have filed suits with the National Labor Relations Board, saying that Netflix engaged in activity to quell employees from speaking up about working conditions, including seeking to create a safe and affirming work environment,

00:03:26.860 speaking up about Netflix products and the impact its product choices have on the LGBTQ community

00:03:31.940 and providing support for employees whom Netflix has treated in an unlawful and disparate manner.

00:03:38.120 And as much as Dave Chappelle keeps talking about how he's being cancelled,

00:03:41.980 you know, naturally as one does from a massive stage in front of a massive adoring audience

00:03:45.880 while earning millions for it,

00:03:47.280 the demands of the Netflix staffers who walked out do not include asking Netflix to take down the comedy special.

00:03:54.420 Instead, Netflix staffers are asking for things like comparable investment in trans and non-binary-led projects at Netflix and more trans and non-binary people in leadership positions.

00:04:04.520 Bee is clear that this is about so much more than one comedy special.

00:04:08.640 So my name is Bee Pagels Minor. My pronouns are they, them, theirs. And my current title is Growing a Baby.

00:04:17.360 and that's about it so I read your Washington Post piece and I read the piece on your blog

00:04:26.140 both of which really talked about this journey for you really kind of fully embracing who you

00:04:30.880 are and I guess one of my questions for you was like what was it like to feel seen in that way

00:04:35.920 you know um to share this truth about yourself like were you did you feel seen working at

00:04:42.400 netflix was this something that you know felt i felt like a good fit yeah you know it's really

00:04:48.140 interesting because i would say yes and no right so like in terms of the internal environment at

00:04:54.540 netflix i definitely felt like i had a lot of support to be a black person a trans person

00:04:59.760 a lesbian you know loud you know someone who dissents very loudly things like that

00:05:07.160 but but one of the complaints i've always had and something that obviously is coming up again here

00:05:11.920 is the lack of content. So it was so strange to be like this internal employee, feel pretty

00:05:18.020 validated, feel pretty supported. But then when I looked at the things that were on screen,

00:05:22.840 I didn't see anything that looked like me. And that cognitive dissonance was one of the things

00:05:27.020 that bothered me most about working there, right? You know, I really wanted to say like, you know,

00:05:33.000 first of all, I'm from Mississippi. There are Black, actually the majority of Mississippi is

00:05:37.240 black right majority of mississippi is also rural you know why don't we have shows about that i

00:05:43.640 watched p valley last year and it was so funny because my friends were like p valley doesn't

00:05:48.280 seem like your type of show i was like it's about it's about black people mississippi i was so

00:05:52.180 excited i was like i was like i finally get to see people who are like my family who grew that i grew

00:05:58.640 up around and so it's always like that that little bit of like yes i feel good because i have great

00:06:04.560 benefits. I have a great salary. I get to be loud. I'm doing some of the best work of my life.

00:06:09.720 But no, because I really feel like we're missing the mark on showing representative lives of

00:06:16.460 diverse types of people. Conversations around identity and representation at Netflix did not

00:06:22.340 start with Dave Chappelle. Internally, Netflix staffers have been pushing these conversations

00:06:26.580 about whose story gets told and by who and how for years. Like many companies, Netflix has

00:06:32.320 Employee Resource Groups, or ERGs, employee-led initiatives within a company that work to create

00:06:37.700 inclusivity along certain demographics and identities. There's Dream at Netflix to champion

00:06:42.520 immigrant representation, Black at Netflix, L'Chaim at Netflix for Jewish representation,

00:06:48.660 Vetflix for veteran representation, Indigenous at Netflix, and more. TransStar is the ERG that

00:06:54.620 champions trans identity and representation at Netflix that Bee helped lead. And after the

00:06:59.380 release of the film Girl, a 2019 Belgian film about a trans ballet dancer that faced criticism

00:07:04.820 for its depiction of things like body dysmorphia and self-harm in the trans community.

00:07:09.240 It's so easy for people to think that these conversations happening internally around

00:07:13.560 Netflix and the content they produce, and sort of the way that the content represents or does

00:07:20.180 not represent all folks, you know, trans identities, all of that. It's easy to think that those

00:07:25.100 conversations began and ended with this Dave Chappelle special, but we know that's not true.

00:07:30.240 Can you give me a little bit of a history lesson of where these conversations at Netflix actually

00:07:33.820 did start? So the trans-specific conversation started around the release of Girl. So the Girl

00:07:40.300 movie, it was definitely, it was a misrepresentation of trans culture. And that's when, you know, it

00:07:46.940 was almost three years ago. That's when people first started asking questions about, hey, like,

00:07:51.580 Why did we put that out there?

00:07:52.860 This is harmful content.

00:07:54.060 It's not true. 1.00

00:07:55.160 It's a terrible representation of trans culture. 1.00

00:07:58.440 Separately, I was also the ERG lead for Blackette, right? 1.00

00:08:02.760 And the Blackette is the oldest ERG out of all the ERGs.

00:08:06.820 And they've been talking about that

00:08:07.980 for like six or seven years, right?

00:08:10.560 So for six or seven years,

00:08:11.620 they've been talking about Black content,

00:08:13.000 Black representation, making sure content's there.

00:08:15.500 So the conversation around content

00:08:17.060 and having it be representative is in the DNA of Netflix.

00:08:21.500 for diverse people who've worked there.

00:08:23.540 The question has simply been,

00:08:25.880 why the heck has it not moved forward?

00:08:28.880 Like, why the heck have we not gotten to the point

00:08:30.960 that the content really reflects all of this,

00:08:34.900 this internal debate, internal conversation

00:08:37.880 that's been very, very robust.

00:08:39.860 And in fact, when you actually think about it,

00:08:42.000 you know, a lot of the comments that have been made is,

00:08:45.160 oh, well, Netflix is one of the first places

00:08:47.020 that ever had a trans person.

00:08:49.040 And I'm like, yeah, yeah,

00:08:50.100 know laverne was on oranges new black you know we we know you know nomi from sensei but at the same

00:08:57.140 time if you can only name two or three that's probably not a good way to go about this you

00:09:03.300 know and then we also know when laverne was on oranges new blacks they were dubbing her words

00:09:09.780 with men in other countries right yes they really i did not know that and it was so offensive and

00:09:16.500 And for instance, TransStar is another great example of when TransStar was consulted by the dubbing team.

00:09:20.780 And they were like, so how should we deal with this in the future?

00:09:23.100 And we were like, well, you know, we understand that in different countries, in different languages,

00:09:27.160 it might be difficult to find someone who perfectly matches someone's voice.

00:09:32.740 And if that is the case, just ask the person what they think.

00:09:36.760 You know, don't just make an arbitrary decision.

00:09:39.460 seek out support, create relationships, and honor people by letting them be represented in a way

00:09:45.440 that makes the most sense to them. Right. You know, that actually brings up a good point,

00:09:49.680 which is that I was very surprised to hear that the trans employee resource group was not really

00:09:54.060 consulted at all in the rollout of this special. And so part of me was like, why even have this

00:09:58.900 group at Netflix if you're not going to actually empower them to be involved when things like this

00:10:03.740 are rolled out? And so for the sake of argument, let's say that the trans employee resource group

00:10:08.980 had been consulted during this rollout are there things that you could have seen y'all actually

00:10:14.020 like suggesting to make this less harmful yeah and that's been that's actually been the number

00:10:19.680 one point here like there's no desire to stop creative freedom right like the simple fact is

00:10:25.420 there are contracts you you move forward with the content based on those contracts but there's no

00:10:30.560 desire to stop them and so when i you know thought about it when i first saw it i was just like

00:10:34.880 why did y'all decide to release this in october during lgbtq plus history month like that's a

00:10:40.400 terrible idea you know why did you not think about the term turf and how that because that became

00:10:46.860 the the like klaxon like that became the thing that everyone was focused on and in fact it was

00:10:53.640 external groups who were just like you know dave chappelle's a turf netflix released this it was

00:10:58.280 all external people who were completely incensed that they saw something like that and so it like

00:11:04.260 Like, you know, we could have said, you know, the TransStar group could have said, by the

00:11:07.360 way, you may want to just cut that joke.

00:11:10.140 Like, you know, you may want to like, you know, tweak that or like ask.

00:11:14.180 And the thing is, is, and when I say that, I mean, talk to Dave about it and say, Dave, 0.59

00:11:18.620 your bigger point is this like LGBTQ plus movement versus black movement.

00:11:24.160 And your point is going to get lost because of this statement. 0.69

00:11:27.180 Right.

00:11:27.740 And so it's about making the content get to his point versus having all of this furor

00:11:33.520 around it.

00:11:34.260 And so that's the thing. That's what TransStar does. That's what TransStar has always offered to do. One of the other things that I did as TransStar lead was also to meet with content executives. And I call it the friendship offensive. And all we would do is go have conversations with these folks and say, hey, we're humans. We're great. We can help you make great content.

00:11:52.780 And I'm going to tell you some of the pieces of, you know, productions that we worked on, I know for a fact that they're so much better, because we just sat down with those people and told them different ways. And they would send us emails and say, what do you think of this? What do you think of that? And all we did was consult, you know, it was never, oh, like, you know, we are the barrier to this amazing thing being created.

00:12:18.180 It was how can we make it better so that Netflix's reputation isn't harmed, so that trans people aren't harmed, and so that people get a good message out of it.

00:12:28.520 That's such a good point, because the only thing I have heard about this comedy special is the transphobia and the TERF comments and the JK Rowling comments.

00:12:38.080 Whatever the other point Dave was trying to make, it did not reach me.

00:12:41.580 It did not reach Twitter.

00:12:42.560 And I have to wonder, like, was that actually, like, I feel like if he had been open to be thought partners with you all, his special would have been that much better, that much more, you know, just that much more truthful and authentic.

00:12:59.140 And it's like, what a missed opportunity to make something better and also less harmful.

00:13:04.400 Like, what a win-win that was just missed.

00:13:06.220 yeah i mean one of the things i saw someone tweet they were like i haven't seen anyone

00:13:11.540 drop a a video a gif a meme of the special that had a joke in it and they were like how can the

00:13:22.480 special be successful if they haven't dropped the single one and i was like you have a point

00:13:26.860 they've only dropped the really incendiary thing and so go and so to your point is true like you

00:13:32.540 i do feel like the special could have been so much more powerful if there had been that partnership

00:13:38.060 because i do think i understand what he's trying to say i disagree with it right like and i would

00:13:42.700 say this because to a certain extent the special is trying to pit lgbtq plus versus the civil rights

00:13:48.620 movement i am a black trans person i'm at the intersection of these two groups i get screwed

00:13:53.900 over by both groups right like like legitimately i get screwed over by both groups and so like i

00:13:59.260 I do think that this oppression Olympics, like one movement hurting another movement, I don't think that's true.

00:14:04.420 In fact, if you think about the same-sex marriage law that went into effect many years ago,

00:14:09.020 they actually, you know, use loving versus Virginia as part of their logic behind it,

00:14:15.360 because they're saying that minority individuals deserve the same rights as anyone else in this country.

00:14:21.860 And so I actually think that both the civil rights movement and the LGBTQ rights movement are intrinsically linked.

00:14:27.880 And we would be empowered by uniting them versus assuming that one happens over the other one.

00:14:35.820 And it just I mean, I completely agree. We're definitely our movements are stronger together when we support each other.

00:14:41.580 And it completely erases people at the intersections like yourself.

00:14:45.120 Something about Dave's comedy seems to suggest that LGBT, the LG, it's like that book. 0.99

00:14:51.360 All the women are white. All the men are black. Right. 0.90

00:14:54.600 Like all the LGBTQ folks are just default white. 1.00

00:14:58.280 All of the black folks are default cis. 0.96

00:15:00.580 And it's like, it completely erases that people exist at those intersections in a way that 0.99

00:15:05.680 I feel like it's so like 1997, like, like get your, get your attitudes and your ideas

00:15:11.960 into 2021, you know?

00:15:14.900 Exactly.

00:15:15.680 Exactly.

00:15:16.380 And the simple fact is, you know, I think it was timed like three or four years ago,

00:15:20.160 they were talking about what the future of the world's going to look like.

00:15:23.120 and all those people had melanin okay right like that's i mean let's just be truthful the way that

00:15:29.580 the world is actually changing the way that it's actually evolving i mean even gen z such a large

00:15:35.380 percentage of gen z around the world is completely open to not only lgbtq plus people but they're

00:15:41.880 coming out increasingly earlier right so you know you have like you know 8 9 10 11 12 15 16 you know

00:15:48.980 year old come out and say yeah i'm a part of the lgbtq plus community which is not something that

00:15:53.100 has ever happened before the world is changing rapidly right and so the fact that we continue

00:15:58.980 to have these like very antiquated conversations is just very disturbing to me and is a sign of

00:16:04.820 how some people are like this is why you have to be thoughtful and you have to listen right like i

00:16:10.480 am now considered an elder like because you know i'm over a certain age i'm an elder now right in

00:16:16.440 my community because in the trans community most like so there's been a statistic that says that

00:16:22.000 many black trans people do not make it to the age of 35 i am not over 35 so i'm like a grandparent

00:16:27.820 like that's how that's how they perceive me and it's just so interesting to me because even for me

00:16:33.260 i have to take a step back and listen to the younger people because they're like you're more

00:16:37.600 conservative than i am and i was like oh i guess i am right because i grew up in a completely

00:16:42.860 different generation. I came out much later because I was afraid. And you don't have that

00:16:47.640 fear mechanism that keeps you from being your whole self. And I actually admire you. What do

00:16:52.420 you need me to help you with? Because you're so much further along than I was. And all I'm trying

00:16:57.300 to do is make sure that you have a safe place to live. That's beautiful. First of all, I would

00:17:02.140 have never thought you were over 35, but that's so beautiful. You know, so this is, that's black 0.91

00:17:07.880 don't prep. It's so true. 1.00

00:17:13.160 Let's take a quick break.

00:17:20.080 Behind every night spent making the kids lunches, there's a lot of suspense.

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00:17:31.860 And will you finish episode eight before you're done slicing the cucumbers?

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00:18:19.800 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

00:18:25.720 This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters,

00:18:31.900 pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the

00:18:36.480 same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books,

00:18:41.900 the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.

00:18:45.320 I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

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00:19:09.920 you're in the right place listen to pro society on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever

00:19:16.400 you get your podcasts see you between the pages when i was 14 years old i was kidnapped and held

00:19:23.780 captive for nine months. I survived and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive

00:19:30.020 what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the Survivor Files. I just

00:19:36.160 remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying shut up don't say anything. Every week I'm 0.68

00:19:45.300 with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up without a doubt he was going

00:19:52.280 to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed and I just started

00:19:58.980 screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories

00:20:05.720 about what's taken from them. They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:20:11.580 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app,

00:20:16.200 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:20:22.280 And we're back.

00:20:26.000 In 1987, Eddie Murphy released his stand-up special, Eddie Murphy Raw.

00:20:30.540 And Murphy has this whole bit about how gay people didn't like his homophobic jokes,

00:20:34.340 and how whenever he goes out to parties or out on the town, 0.92

00:20:37.060 he feels like there's going to be a gay mob out looking for him. 0.89

00:20:40.500 Only, he doesn't say gay people. He uses a slur. 0.98

00:20:43.680 And there won't be no siren. It'll be a real fag sitting on the roof going, 1.00

00:20:45.960 woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo. 0.98

00:20:48.600 Now, something about this line, 0.97

00:20:50.120 the idea of a gay person strapped to the top of a car as a siren really stuck with me. And the 0.99

00:20:56.040 takeaway for me when I was watching was that gay people are basically less than human and that 1.00

00:21:01.100 pointing this out is funny. I mean, like, listen to this crowd. They were loving it. And I interpreted 1.00

00:21:07.580 that making fun of gay people was a clear pathway to acceptance from others. Now, I was watching 0.52

00:21:13.040 this when I was just a kid. I'd already known that something was up with me, but I had not yet come

00:21:17.300 the terms with being a queer person. And I watched the way that these kinds of jokes about gay people

00:21:22.540 got Eddie Murphy so much loud, clear acceptance from other Black people. And it was confusing to

00:21:28.000 me at a time when I was already really confused. In 2019, Eddie Murphy actually revisited his past

00:21:34.460 homophobic comedy routines. In an interview with the New York Times, he said that he looks back

00:21:38.360 on all those old jokes in cringes. I was a young guy processing a broken heart and kind of an

00:21:44.120 asshole, he said. He apologized for spreading homophobia and ignorant comments about HIV, 1.00

00:21:49.260 saying that he's much more educated now. I now have a whole lifetime of experiences to draw upon.

00:21:54.980 There was a time when I was at the center of everything, what I was doing and how funny I was

00:21:59.000 and how popular I was. I'm not the center anymore, he said. Now, instead of railing against being

00:22:04.560 canceled by the PC police, he reflected. He evolved. There's this attitude I've heard over

00:22:10.940 and over again, that what a comedian says on stage is just a joke. It doesn't have any real

00:22:15.540 world impact. Now, there are scores of studies that suggest otherwise. And Bea puts it another

00:22:20.640 way. If someone is starting out from a place where many of the messages around them are telling them

00:22:25.580 that they aren't even a full person, adding to that chorus makes things that much harder.

00:22:31.100 Something that I'm kind of almost sick of hearing is this idea that like, oh, it's just jokes. It's

00:22:36.980 just jokes. I'm sure I don't need to tell you that study after study after study has shown,

00:22:41.120 you know, a direct correlation between transphobic rhetoric and anti-trans violence. And so,

00:22:45.880 you know, what do you say to people who are like, oh, comedy specials don't translate to real world

00:22:51.400 harm? Like, like, what do you probably, I know that I have heard that argument over and over

00:22:55.880 again. Like, what do we say to stuff like that? So first of all, we know that's not 100% true,

00:23:01.160 because if that was not, if that was true, then a five-year-old graduated our movie.

00:23:06.980 right like we know that the content on the screen impacts people now the thing is is that that

00:23:14.220 doesn't mean that like today after they watch the special they're going to go out and beat up

00:23:18.640 someone who's trans but that does mean that someone is forming an opinion about trans people

00:23:23.800 based on the content that they're seeing and that they could be discriminatory towards trans people

00:23:28.440 or they could be violent towards trans people later we also know that the content that exists

00:23:33.560 on the screen also internally impacts the people who are the target of that content right so like

00:23:41.100 you know we also think about self-harm if you're seeing this type of content if you're seeing

00:23:46.380 people talk about this in this type of dialogue and you already are in a place where you're not

00:23:51.920 a whole person right you know i was when i first started out i used to tell people you know naturally

00:23:58.020 i am i wake up every day with my glass half empty right i'm a diverse person i'm a multi-diverse

00:24:05.200 person and so i hear constantly whether it's about me being black and potentially being less

00:24:12.120 than whether it's about me being non-male and somehow not being strong whether it's about me

00:24:16.880 being trans and my differentness there whether it's about me you know being married to a woman

00:24:22.320 and how different that is you know what it's like about me being married to a white woman

00:24:27.560 and how i've betrayed my race like all of these things are coming through constantly

00:24:32.400 and so when you put out this content all it's doing is trying to diminish the little bit that's

00:24:38.620 in that glass right the little bit of hope in the dreams there i'm very fortunate because i have an

00:24:46.320 amazing support system and i have an amazing amount of education and fiscal ability because

00:24:55.400 i've been so successful in technology for so long that i've been able to fill that glass back up to

00:25:00.580 almost full but many people cannot and so when you think about this content all it's doing is

00:25:07.040 diminishing the potential of those people and then we lose out on that potential like as a society

00:25:13.980 we are literally losing out on bright lights who could help change this world because of the

00:25:19.580 content we're choosing to pursue out there without also making sure that we put out affirming content

00:25:26.020 too how hard is it to make another pose really pose was pretty cheap it was really cheap you

00:25:34.800 know we could make like five poses and people would be so happy that's such a good point and

00:25:40.480 And I think it takes me to this idea that is obviously bullshit, but this idea that, oh, these Netflix staffers, they want to cancel Dave Chappelle.

00:25:48.180 But when you actually look at the demands that staffers were putting forth at Netflix, it's stuff like, you know, can we invest in a comparable way for trans and gender nonconforming and non-binary creators? 0.90

00:26:01.760 You know, can we elevate like trans content like the Disclosure documentary, which I love?

00:26:07.480 You know, can we can we promote that on the platform?

00:26:09.960 It is such common sense things. And yet it gets sort of, I don't know, telephoned into, they want to cancel Dave Chappelle. And I guess my question is, how do we combat this idea when there are so many people who are just hell bent on believing the absolute worst about the intentions here?

00:26:30.380 Because when you actually look at the demands, it's just like what you're saying, like invest in trans and gender nonconforming creators and that will actually improve the platform.

00:26:39.900 Netflix will be better for it. And yet that gets sort of mistranslated into something that's just completely not true.

00:26:47.640 I mean, Oprah said it best. Oprah was just like, there's just some people you're not going to convince.

00:26:53.060 Right. You're just not going to convince. That's not the people we're trying to convince.

00:26:56.040 We're trying to find that middle ground of people, the middle ground of people who are

00:27:01.080 still trying to learn, to be educated, who just want to know more.

00:27:05.720 And so that's the main thing I'm focusing on, right?

00:27:09.140 The reason I've agreed to go on these podcasts and things like that is to spread this message

00:27:13.040 because the people who listen to you, the people who are looking at the op-ed, those

00:27:17.560 people are the ones who still have that ability to be swayed.

00:27:20.980 And the thing about that is, is if we sway a few of those people, they're also related

00:27:25.040 to some other people.

00:27:26.040 right and so hopefully they'll go in and say hey i want to hear that today right and and also

00:27:35.000 this new thing hopefully if you know netflix moves forward with with meeting some of these demands

00:27:40.340 there'll be a new piece of content out there at some point that they watch that has a trans

00:27:44.780 character that they love just because it's a good show and then eventually that'll work out like this

00:27:50.720 is a long term this is a marathon this is not a short term thing we're not going to change

00:27:56.220 everyone's mind short term and the thing is we shouldn't if it was that easy to change people's

00:28:00.580 minds wouldn't be such hard work right when you think about you know the other day whoopi goldberg

00:28:05.480 was talking about the civil rights movement and she was talking about the fact that if we had

00:28:09.500 waited for people to change their mind on the value of black people black people still wouldn't

00:28:15.000 have the right to vote today and i feel as though this is the same exact conversation

00:28:20.160 The same as that conversation that, you know, there's still so much movement we have to do for trans people, for black people, for women, for Latinx people, for Asian people.

00:28:31.540 This is a nonstop marathon to have diverse people be seen as equal and have the equity they deserve in this country.

00:28:40.920 The conditions that you are creating, I think, can create change that is lasting, that is meaningful, that reverberates.

00:28:47.380 It does not begin and end with Dave Chappelle's Funky Special.

00:28:51.280 This is a movement that has longer-term longevity.

00:28:56.260 And I just love to see that.

00:28:57.660 And I feel like in every statement and thing that the staffers have put out, that's been so salient to me.

00:29:05.220 So I've just loved to see that so much.

00:29:08.940 You know, one of the things that I, it's kind of a personal pet peeve of mine.

00:29:13.140 And so many of the people that I talked to on this podcast, they are marginalized people.

00:29:18.220 They are historically underrepresented people.

00:29:20.040 They work in tech companies, tech platforms.

00:29:22.200 They are the ones who are putting in all this hard work of making these companies and these

00:29:25.860 platforms look progressive or woke or with it.

00:29:29.500 Now, internally, they might be ostracized for this work.

00:29:32.980 They might be punished for this work.

00:29:34.340 They might be fired for this work.

00:29:36.580 But the companies are super okay with taking credit for it and being like, yeah, we're

00:29:41.360 a woke company.

00:29:42.160 We're so progressive.

00:29:42.820 yes all of that you know do you feel like that's sort of happening here that it is staffers who

00:29:49.400 are already marginalized who are making like giving Netflix the shine to be like oh we are

00:29:55.260 with it woke progressive new fresh all of that but also behind the scenes punishing those same

00:30:02.040 staffers you know the one thing I will say is is that there had been an internal movement before

00:30:07.020 I would let go to start rewarding people who work with ERGs financially, right?

00:30:13.980 You know, to take that into account for their review.

00:30:16.900 And it was the first time I'd ever been at a company that had actually had that conversation.

00:30:20.940 But I will say that this is thankless work typically, right?

00:30:24.820 You know, you're doing all this work to create an environment that's great, that makes the

00:30:29.220 company look great.

00:30:30.580 And a lot of people don't really see that as a part of your work.

00:30:34.360 And so that's something that needs to change, right? Because ERG work, not only does it, you know, help the company see what's going wrong, but it also helps retain talent.

00:30:47.940 I can't tell you how many times I was asked to participate in something, whether it was, you know, TransStar or Black Act, that helped make sure that a person didn't leave Netflix, right?

00:30:59.440 Because I was able to help negotiate and explain to people what was going on.

00:31:03.120 You know, when it came to the company culture, making sure that they understood where the culture had issues, you know, that type of work is super, super important. And it also is something that, you know, it's invaluable, right? It's invaluable. There's no way to calculate how much that does for the company.

00:31:22.240 And so I do think that this is something companies really need to think about is how do you figure out what that value is? Because it is a differentiator between you retaining someone and not retaining someone.

00:31:34.540 So people want to work at companies where they feel respected and safe.

00:31:39.200 And I think that like that is a conversation that I that I feel like it's easy to be missed in this particular situation is that like I wouldn't it doesn't surprise me that people are not necessarily feeling respected, listened to, seen, heard, valued, safe.

00:31:51.700 And I feel like these days people are unwilling to attach themselves to companies that do not respect them.

00:31:56.420 And I think that's great. But people want to feel respected in their workplaces.

00:32:01.040 And, you know, I saw that statement that the CEO of Netflix put out where he was like, oh, you know, this, I handled this badly, all of that, but not seeing the way that that trickles down to the staff, like the at the top decisions make people feel so disrespected and unseen and unheard and unvalued and how there are people like yourself who are going in and plugging those leaks and doing the work of, of doing some recon and saying like, you know, are you thinking about leaving?

00:32:28.400 how are you feeling like talk to me about where you're at where your where your head is at all

00:32:31.380 of that you know that is valuable work yeah and not only that but also his apology which i will

00:32:38.480 say is not an apology said like one of them was like oh it's because we've been working from home

00:32:44.140 they forgot how good they have it and i was like that's what an abusive relationship said

00:32:48.600 yeah like i didn't hit you today so that you should appreciate me and i'm just like but you

00:32:53.740 hit me the other day like I don't like it doesn't work like that so yeah no I definitely feel like

00:32:58.480 you know it missed the mark right because it really is more about how do you show up right

00:33:06.780 you know folks ask me like what should those emails those first memos or emails should have

00:33:12.000 said and I said it's very simple it should have said hey we dropped the ball on this one we should

00:33:18.620 have done a better job let's talk and that's three sentences his actual memo was like two pages

00:33:25.460 but it's two pages to say nothing exactly and so like that's the thing apologies are just apologies

00:33:30.960 like you don't have to like you don't have it doesn't have to be convoluted you don't have to

00:33:34.400 justify yourself it is apologize have a conversation figure out corrective action don't do it

00:33:41.020 more after a quick break

00:33:48.620 Transcription by CastingWords

00:34:18.620 check availability bell connection is everything run a business and not thinking about podcasting

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00:34:52.360 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

00:34:58.300 This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters,

00:35:04.700 pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the

00:35:09.040 same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books,

00:35:14.460 the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this

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00:35:47.440 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages.

00:35:52.520 When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months. I survived,

00:35:59.160 and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:36:04.840 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files.

00:36:08.440 I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, 0.96

00:36:13.880 shut up, don't say anything.

00:36:16.640 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. 0.98

00:36:21.060 I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.

00:36:25.520 I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.

00:36:32.600 They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

00:36:37.040 But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.

00:36:40.480 They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:36:44.120 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:36:56.760 Let's get right back into it.

00:36:58.240 I saw that Dave Chappelle said that he'd be willing to meet with Netflix staffers.

00:37:03.060 That no longer includes you because Netflix fired you, unfortunately.

00:37:07.740 Do you think that that would be like, would you be willing to meet with him?

00:37:11.280 Do you feel like that would be fruitful or productive?

00:37:13.140 Or would that be like, is that just like not even where your head is at?

00:37:16.300 I mean, I would tell you me with him.

00:37:18.000 The whole point of this is to educate people.

00:37:20.740 Right.

00:37:21.380 And Dave says that he cares.

00:37:24.300 Right.

00:37:24.660 Like, so that's some part of his statements too.

00:37:26.220 he's like this this isn't me versus them you know this is about you know other things and so i would

00:37:32.680 be glad to meet with him and also i don't have to be there i could also you know if he wants to

00:37:37.460 reach out i can help him connect with the netflix people as well because this isn't about me right

00:37:42.020 this is about the work and the making sure this work gets done um and i i hope that he would

00:37:47.500 actually listen and actually i think he had mentioned recently he was you know he said

00:37:52.600 something like but you have to have watched the special and i'm like we like we all have either

00:37:56.740 read the transcript or watched the special so we've already done all of our homework i would

00:38:01.060 ask him to look up what turf ideology actually means um and also understand a little bit more

00:38:07.180 about transgender biology you know just so we can actually start off on the same playing field in

00:38:13.820 terms of you know what we're talking about but other than that i let's go for it in the piece

00:38:19.360 that I read on your blog, you referenced this really famous Baldwin quote, to be a Negro in

00:38:25.120 this country is to be relatively conscious, and to be relatively conscious is to be in a rage most 0.99

00:38:30.180 of the time. And you kind of had your own spin on it. You said, to be a Black trans person in

00:38:33.960 America is a study in courage and a fierce desire to not be forgotten. And so it just seems like

00:38:40.500 Black trans folks are so easily erased and forgotten, not just in this conversation, 0.71

00:38:45.620 but everywhere. And y'all have always been here. Y'all are part of our history. And I guess I 0.90

00:38:51.460 wonder, do you find yourself feeling like you have to constantly create these monuments to

00:38:56.560 your existence so that it doesn't get erased? And not just monuments to your existence,

00:39:00.480 but this idea that Black trans existence is more than just trauma and pain, making sure that

00:39:06.840 there's room for Black trans joy, Black trans dreams, Black trans brilliance. How do we build

00:39:13.200 monuments to all to be 360 degrees that is black transness yeah you know it's so funny i was talking 0.73

00:39:21.320 to my cousin because you know my cousin he he was talking about you know the special and um how it

00:39:28.380 didn't hit for him and we started talking about black trans people and on you know trans native

00:39:34.680 remembrance the majority of the names that's going to be read out as people have been killed this 0.95

00:39:38.340 year are Black trans people. And it's so interesting because those people are just the people we know

00:39:44.000 about. Those are the people who had someone who advocated for them, who said this person

00:39:50.460 was a Black person, this person was a trans person, because many people don't have legal

00:39:57.060 name changes. They don't have people who are affirming of their identity to represent their

00:40:04.980 story in fact i was telling my cousin that i'm so fortunate because like my legal name is beat

00:40:10.020 like this is the name i chose my documents show that i'm a trans person there's an entire

00:40:15.460 reflection now in the zeit the zeitgeist that says that i am d so no one can take my story from me

00:40:23.540 right no one can take my story from me and so that is the point is the fact that so many people

00:40:30.260 live these amazing colorful beautiful lives that are cut short and because of the fact that

00:40:36.820 as a society we're not quite where we need to be to understand and be respectful of that identity

00:40:42.900 right it's actually really funny because people talk about that you should have privacy in your

00:40:47.140 home but what we actually talk about like what we actually see for black trans people

00:40:51.540 is that as soon as you die your privacy goes away you become a part of the public conversation 0.75

00:40:56.500 and they choose who you are and so that's the thing about all of this this is about choice

00:41:02.580 it's like why do we choose to harm why do we choose to defame why do we choose to let people

00:41:08.900 be forgotten when we know they existed and they should be honored as such and so that is the real

00:41:15.700 core piece of this and so it's an increasingly frustrating thing for me because even you know

00:41:21.220 there's a young man from Mississippi who was killed recently and his entire family misgendered

00:41:28.480 him and it's his family it's his chosen family who has done this work to get out the message of

00:41:34.660 who he was and I just think it's someone else from Mississippi who is just so fortunate that

00:41:40.520 I get to control my story I mean it's like it was Hamilton who will tell your story if Hamilton's

00:41:44.600 wife wasn't so bomb who knows what we would know about Alexander Hamilton right like you know

00:41:50.300 that's the thing that's crazy about this. That's beautiful. B, where can folks support you, support

00:41:57.980 Black trans folks more broadly, and what should folks do to support the Netflix staffers who are

00:42:03.100 continuing to speak out? So first and foremost, for the Netflix staffers, continue to spread the

00:42:09.000 message about what's really been asked for. So if you look at Twitter, there's a trans at Netflix

00:42:15.080 twitter handle and so the asks are there continue to share those asks so that people can understand

00:42:20.700 what the real ask is here to um watch trans things so disclosure documentary is great

00:42:28.700 also watch pose because pose really so as a young young black trans person coming up

00:42:35.080 pose that actually definitely represents a lot of my communities that i first met

00:42:39.860 and who who helped me become cool because i was a dork um so i think that's really great

00:42:44.660 to support Black trans content, especially Pose, too.

00:42:48.740 And then for just generally, this is just the beginning, right?

00:42:53.880 So this is just the beginning.

00:42:54.760 So there's a lot of organizations out there.

00:42:56.360 So Trans Lifeline is a great organization.

00:42:58.600 Howard Brown Health in Chicago is one of the premier institutions

00:43:01.940 treating trans folks and doing research on trans folks.

00:43:05.260 The Transgender Law Center is also an amazing place to support, too.

00:43:09.380 They're doing really, really great work.

00:43:11.240 GLAAD is a great place to support because they're trying to help

00:43:13.680 talk about this media representation and change that. And then for me, I'm the Pagels minor

00:43:19.160 everywhere. Follow me on Twitter, you know, because that's really where I post a lot of

00:43:24.060 content that I find that I think is very interesting. They can help people understand

00:43:28.300 a little bit more context as well. But first and foremost, educate yourself. You know, if there's

00:43:33.980 a curiosity that you have that you don't really know what's going on, chances are there's a

00:43:37.920 document, there's someone who's tweeting about, there's someone who can help give you that

00:43:42.260 context so that you can feel more comfortable because like you know this is a long journey

00:43:46.860 like you know it's definitely not something that you figure out overnight okay I actually have one

00:43:52.800 last curveball question for you you strike me as someone who likes movies likes tv likes music

00:43:58.460 do you remember a time when a piece of media or piece of content or piece of art made you feel

00:44:04.460 seen and affirmed pose is a great example of something for me where I cried when I first saw

00:44:10.640 like I could not believe that those were the like the the drag shows the ballroom I was just like

00:44:18.640 this is this is literally what I first got exposed to right so this is before I came out as trans

00:44:25.880 because like I was I refused to acknowledge the fact that I was trans and I was in Memphis Tennessee

00:44:30.460 I was home from college and my mother my mother of all people took me to the club to see a drag show

00:44:38.620 because she was just like I feel like you need to see this I was like mommas know they know they

00:44:43.360 know and so like I ended up going to this drag show with my mother which was really bomb and I

00:44:49.480 met a bunch of like a bunch of like the drag community you know who are also trans and so

00:44:54.960 some of the first things imposed like literally feel like they were exactly the exact same thing

00:45:00.460 from when I first came out or when I first started to discover that maybe I might be different

00:45:05.500 and so that's a huge thing and the the second example which is like really strange and i don't

00:45:10.640 know why i feel this way about this but the second example is purple rain so i think it's because of

00:45:19.200 princess androgyny and so like i kind of felt like you know i was like i felt a little seen

00:45:24.740 and also it was so complicated right because he was like this brilliant artist but he's also so

00:45:29.520 like messed up and like i just felt like i just really got it because like i just yeah and so i

00:45:34.580 I mean, I watched, I rewatched that movie, like, probably multiple times a year.

00:45:38.680 And the whole soundtrack is, like, that's my soundtrack.

00:45:41.160 If I'm in a mood, I gotta listen to that soundtrack, so.

00:45:44.840 Bea, you are, you have no idea.

00:45:46.560 If I could turn you around and show you all the different Prince iconography in my apartment,

00:45:51.700 Purple Rain is my thing, Prince is my thing.

00:45:53.720 And again, like, Prince was someone who made me feel seen, especially in the Black community,

00:45:59.140 because, you know, I grew up in the South and I grew up with my uncles making gay jokes

00:46:04.260 and using slurs and everybody liked Prince.

00:46:07.360 Like it didn't, like, even though there was,

00:46:09.360 like Prince was androgynous,

00:46:10.580 even though Prince was like, as my uncles would say, 0.99

00:46:13.100 fruity, people fucked with Prince. 0.93

00:46:15.500 And so to see the power that he had in our community 0.99

00:46:19.060 was, it was intoxicating.

00:46:21.340 I completely feel you on the Prince,

00:46:23.440 completely feel you.

00:46:25.160 And you know, and he could get anybody he wanted,

00:46:27.960 man, woman, trans, like anybody in the whole world.

00:46:31.940 I'm pretty sure Prince could walk into a room

00:46:33.680 and just look at you, you'd be like, all right, okay, where are we going to go?

00:46:36.520 I think that's the other part of it is that it just completely redefined

00:46:40.660 what masculinity, what femininity, what everything was.

00:46:43.860 And I think that that's one of those things that he probably did more work

00:46:47.280 for so many different types of people than almost any other artist.

00:46:52.640 And he wasn't trying to.

00:46:54.680 Not a woman, not a man, something you'll never understand.

00:46:59.040 The power of art, I mean, the power of representation,

00:47:02.160 the power of art, the power of creativity, it's unmatched.

00:47:32.160 I'm your host, Bridget Todd.

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00:47:55.100 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

00:48:01.080 Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:48:09.740 Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.

00:48:18.000 Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

00:48:19.760 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:48:25.160 I survived nine months in captivity, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive

00:48:32.460 what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files.

00:48:38.060 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled,

00:48:43.880 and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:48:49.080 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:49:19.080 Annie McBride, Riz Ahmed, and Mary Steenburgen.

00:49:21.500 Listen to Hollywood Handbook on the iHeartRadio app,

00:49:24.300 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:49:27.600 I'm Nick Turturro.

00:49:28.620 You probably know me from NYPD Blue, The Longest Yard,

00:49:31.840 or Spike Lee's Black Klansman.

00:49:33.580 And on my new podcast, Delivering Happiness with Nick Turturro,

00:49:36.340 I deliver pizza to a new guest.

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00:49:41.200 What are you doing with my belt?

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00:49:43.460 I don't think I've ever met somebody so exactly out of their mind as I am.

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00:49:54.280 Delivering happiness.

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There Are No Girls on the Internet - November 05, 2021

Dave Chapelle isn’t “cancelled.” But a pregnant, Black, trans staffer was fired in the wake of his Netflix fallout

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