There Are No Girls on the Internet - How can we change Facebook？ Try logging out for 3 days.

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00:00:05.180 Behind every night spent making the kids' lunches,

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00:00:09.440 Will they finally eat the veggies?

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00:00:17.020 And will you finish Episode 8 before you're done slicing the cucumbers?

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00:00:50.080 I survived nine months in captivity,

00:00:53.240 and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:00:58.760 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files.

00:01:02.380 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

00:01:09.920 These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:01:13.740 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:01:21.360 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

00:01:27.100 Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:01:35.740 Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.

00:01:44.000 Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

00:01:45.760 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:01:51.160 There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

00:02:03.660 I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

00:02:08.860 Last month, we heard from former Facebook data scientist-turned-whistleblower Sophie Zong 0.97

00:02:13.740 about the ways Facebook has spread harm.

00:02:16.680 Now, her entire story, from taking a job at Facebook to deciding to blow the whistle on the company,

00:02:21.160 at great personal risk, is worth listening to.

00:02:24.600 Here's a clip.

00:02:25.940 When you think about Facebook,

00:02:27.900 is there part of you that is hopeful?

00:02:30.280 Do you think that it can be saved?

00:02:32.360 Can it be a force for good?

00:02:33.660 Or is it just too late?

00:02:36.000 It's very attractive for people to say,

00:02:38.280 the road is fundamentally totally broken and can't be fixed.

00:02:41.140 Therefore, I'm not going to do anything.

00:02:42.980 And thus it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

00:02:44.880 And then you can say, I was right, nothing changed.

00:02:47.960 Because in the end, nothing will happen.

00:02:50.500 and NSV the people make it happen because if everyone writes it off and says it's Facebook,

00:02:55.420 it's broken, then what's the point? We already know that. It's already awful. We can't do anything.

00:03:01.180 Then that will become a self-fulfilling prophecy and because no one will step forward to fix it

00:03:06.900 or change it in the first place. And so the question of will anything happen, that's really

00:03:14.080 up to us. It's up to yourself. It's up to me. It's up to the people listening.

00:03:19.940 So what can we do?

00:03:21.740 How can we, just as regular people who use the platform, hold Facebook accountable?

00:03:26.900 It can sometimes feel like we don't really have a lot of power against a billion-dollar global tech company like Facebook.

00:03:33.340 But Kairos, an organization that builds power for Black and brown communities online, is hoping to change that.

00:03:40.140 Starting with asking everyone to log off of Facebook starting November 10th.

00:03:45.180 98% of Facebook's revenue comes from ads targeted at us, just regular people who use Facebook.

00:03:52.260 That means their revenue depends on our regular use of and engagement with the platform.

00:03:58.780 Now, Kairos is not asking people to delete Facebook.

00:04:01.680 Instead, it's more like a strike.

00:04:04.080 The Facebook logout campaign is an attempt to harness the economic power of consumers to directly impact Facebook's bottom line.

00:04:11.540 And for Jelani Drew Davi, Cairo's campaign director, it's all about power, taking it away from tech billionaires and building it for marginalized people.

00:04:22.240 So first of all, how did you wind up doing the work that it is that you do?

00:04:26.400 Like, how did you get to where you are right now?

00:04:28.400 Yeah, I smile because I'm like, I don't really know either.

00:04:32.300 But I was an organizer, grassroots organizer for a while, and I decided that I needed a

00:04:43.900 break a little bit.

00:04:45.320 I think it was really, I lived in Richmond, Virginia in 2017, Charlottesville and all

00:04:50.680 of the things, and I was kind of deep in it.

00:04:54.020 And, you know, we get burnt out as organizers.

00:04:56.920 And that's what happened to me as a grassroots organizer.

00:04:59.360 And my friend was like, hey, well, you should do digital organizing.

00:05:03.800 I was like, what even is that?

00:05:05.640 So I decided to apply for the Kairos Fellowship.

00:05:09.760 We really got skilled up in what digital organizing was in a way that I think is very different

00:05:18.200 because it's focused on racial equity and equality and really about changing the field

00:05:25.000 of digital organizing and putting black and brown people into it to do the work for our people. 0.72

00:05:31.860 And I kind of fell in love with taking down big tech, which is a strange sentence to say, 0.99

00:05:39.560 but it's something, you know, I like to make CEOs have a really bad day. And I'm happy to

00:05:44.380 have landed full circle back at Kairos now that we campaign, running campaigns at the intersection

00:05:50.260 of tech and racial justice. Jelani, you and I have been on so many calls together, so many

00:05:55.860 different coalition beings together. We have been talking about making like tech billionaires

00:06:01.840 having the worst, making them have a bad time for a very long time. And it's interesting that

00:06:07.480 we're in this moment where a lot of the public is kind of catching up to us. You know, Facebook has

00:06:12.540 had a really intense couple of weeks in terms of like all of this stuff that we have known for a

00:06:18.480 while becoming public in these very specific ways. What are your thoughts on just like what

00:06:24.800 we're seeing coming out of Facebook with these whistleblowers and you know all of this all of

00:06:30.760 these revelations that we've known for a while being made so painfully clear to folks who might

00:06:35.000 not have been so aware? Yeah I don't think I've seen a time since maybe Cambridge Analytica and

00:06:42.780 like that first whistleblower that we saw come out where it's been so much attention on Facebook.

00:06:48.820 And I think in the last, I don't know, year with COVID misinformation, with an elect presidential

00:06:57.060 election happening last year, January 6th, that has all changed. Like you said, I, you know,

00:07:04.360 personally, I'm like, where were y'all at? And, you know, professionally, I'm like, let's go,

00:07:09.500 let's organize people, let's get all people to, you know, really take back their power.

00:07:15.360 This is definitely a different moment in time where, you know, we're seeing Facebook's direct

00:07:20.060 harm on children, our society, our democracy. And, you know, people are really desperate,

00:07:28.040 I think, to be able to do something about it. It's so interesting that you use the phrase,

00:07:34.200 take back our power. I think before I was very involved in like platform accountability work,

00:07:39.200 I just had this blanket assumption that as a person who used social media, a person that

00:07:46.120 used technology, I had no power. Who was I to tell the Mark Zuckerbergs of the world

00:07:51.260 how to run these platforms? And I didn't fully understand how they work. I'm not a software

00:07:56.020 engineer. I'm not a data person. And I think that for me, what really clicked was this change of

00:08:02.920 well, actually, it wouldn't exist if not for the people who use these platforms. And so

00:08:07.900 if we amass together we actually do have power and when I started thinking like that I was like

00:08:13.340 why was I so quick to believe this this fiction that people who use social media have no power

00:08:19.580 and have no right to say you know what their experience on these platforms look like when

00:08:24.400 they are the lifeblood of these platforms they wouldn't exist if not for users yeah and it's

00:08:30.100 it's this thing I think that where tech companies want us to think like that like Facebook wants us

00:08:36.460 to think that we're just a user and we're just someone with a profile when that's not actually

00:08:42.580 true. We are the reason why they make money. We are the reason why they are even existing in the

00:08:47.280 first place. And so even beginning to shift your understanding of your power when it comes to

00:08:53.760 social media platforms and technologies that we use is huge. That is a huge win, I think,

00:09:00.540 if we could start doing that for in mass amounts of people. Yeah. I mean, so let's talk about that

00:09:06.480 a little bit. I know that Kairos is doing the logout Facebook campaign, which I'm so excited

00:09:11.760 about. And it seems to be just one avenue that folks, just everyday folks using social media

00:09:17.700 can start to take back some of that power. Can you tell us a little bit about how that campaign

00:09:21.580 came to be? Yeah, for sure. So, you know, this campaign was really born out of frustration.

00:09:26.100 it has born you know when you go to our our website um the facebook logout.com the first

00:09:32.540 thing you're gonna see is we're really over facebook and that was the first thing i think

00:09:36.980 i typed when i was planning this campaign like i'm really over it um so it's born out of that

00:09:42.980 kind of spirit of we don't want to do any more talking to people on the inside although that is

00:09:50.300 a lane where i think a lot of people are doing a lot of great work but we don't want to do that

00:09:55.000 we don't want to continue to put out little fires here and there or big fires here and there.

00:10:01.820 What we want to do is find a new angle to really try to take Facebook and, you know, hold it

00:10:08.480 accountable. And that for us was users. That really, I think for us, it's a people power

00:10:16.300 thing. Like when we do think about Facebook, we do think about Facebook users. And like you said

00:10:23.140 before, users are, I think users and people, we're not aware that we have power over these

00:10:28.200 like things in our pocket that we scroll through every day. And so for us, it's, you know, part

00:10:34.160 changing people's minds, changing people's orientation to a platform like Facebook,

00:10:39.280 but also getting people to take and go from, you know, a pledge, like pledge to log out to

00:10:46.480 actually take the action and log out with us for a couple of days in November.

00:10:53.140 Let's take a quick break.

00:11:23.140 with a two-year term and auto-pay credit.

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00:12:00.500 if your bookshelf and your for you page are equally important to your personality

00:12:04.500 welcome home this is prose society the weekly podcast that's part book club part group chat

00:12:12.020 for thought daughters pop culture obsessives and anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and

00:12:16.260 love island deserve the same level of discourse i'm eli rallo and every week we're connecting

00:12:21.240 the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.

00:12:26.240 I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

00:12:29.820 From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments,

00:12:34.680 nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling

00:12:40.800 characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives,

00:12:45.520 smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much,

00:12:50.820 you're in the right place listen to pro society on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever

00:12:57.300 you get your podcasts see you between the pages when i was 14 years old i was kidnapped and held

00:13:04.700 captive for nine months i survived and i've spent my life exploring how other people survive what

00:13:11.160 should have destroyed them i'm elizabeth smart and these are the survivor files i just remember

00:13:17.500 this low taunting voice next to my ear saying shut up don't say anything every week i'm with

00:13:26.360 survivors who live through the unthinkable i knew if he woke up without a doubt he was going to hurt

00:13:33.660 i started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed and i just started screaming they

00:13:41.620 are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's

00:13:47.380 taken from them. They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to the

00:13:53.220 Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

00:13:59.260 get your podcasts. At our back. One of the tensions that I feel as a digital organizer

00:14:09.600 is that I have a Facebook.

00:14:12.000 I barely use it,

00:14:13.620 but I have Instagram where I'm active.

00:14:16.280 The reason why I still have Facebook

00:14:18.280 is because, you know,

00:14:20.420 some of the organizing spaces I'm in,

00:14:22.200 a lot of that work happens on Facebook.

00:14:24.180 And that's a real tension that I feel

00:14:26.440 around being on the platform at all.

00:14:28.320 So I guess, do you ever, like,

00:14:29.900 how do you navigate that tension of like

00:14:32.220 asking people to take these steps

00:14:35.060 to divest from Facebook in this way,

00:14:37.360 but knowing that some people use it

00:14:39.060 for things like you know organizing some people use it for communicating with you know friends

00:14:43.560 and family outside of the u.s like it how do you navigate that tension of oh man facebook has

00:14:49.820 really created an ecosystem where so many of us really do have to rely on it but we maybe don't

00:14:56.640 love that that this relationship that we have with facebook yeah totally so i i also have a

00:15:02.980 facebook that i don't really use i'm on instagram though and i joke that i'm part of the problem but

00:15:08.880 Like I'm part of the problem. So, but even doing this work, you know, there is a real tension and we talk about it all the time internally. We also talk about it to people who, you know, respond to our email saying, hey, I use this for my small business. I use this for organizing. And so that's why we're not saying delete Facebook. We're not saying just delete it, leave and figure out what you're going to do afterwards.

00:15:30.380 We're saying, you know, use your power to essentially strike from Facebook, you know, as as workers would strike, like how Amazon workers, you know, were on strike.

00:15:41.660 So, you know, we're definitely not going to a delete Facebook route. I think the tension is is an interesting one.

00:15:48.780 And I think, you know, looking forward in a more visionary way, I'm interested in having more conversations with people who do log out of like, OK, if Facebook is not the place where you want to be or not a place that is going to be better for us, then how do we create a world where tech is working for us, where social media platforms are working for us?

00:16:12.640 um so we definitely hear we definitely hear that organizing like a lot of black and brown people

00:16:18.500 organize on facebook we definitely hear around businesses um and so we're not expecting people

00:16:24.480 just to up and leave but we do want to encourage people to take back their power in those in those

00:16:29.440 couple of days um and you know from there we will see and we're hopeful that we can start building a

00:16:36.300 a new future. I really like that. Yeah. I think, you know, I almost would have think of it as a

00:16:42.800 kind of like harm reduction. Like I have Facebook, but I don't have it on my phone. So I don't get

00:16:48.960 any kind of notifications from it. When I want, when I need to go to Facebook, I have to go to

00:16:52.900 my computer, open up the browser, type in facebook.com and hit enter. And even that for, at

00:16:59.460 least for me individually, creates a little bit of a barrier where it's not just buzzing in my

00:17:05.280 pocket all the time. And so little things for me, you know, helped me create the conditions just in

00:17:12.140 my own personal life so that Facebook didn't have such a tight grip on my, the way that I understood

00:17:18.760 discourse and community and how I kept in touch with folks. Right. And so I didn't outright delete

00:17:23.920 it, you know, but just finding these little ways that works for me to make it less of a part of

00:17:29.720 my daily life and honestly so another one that i did was i stopped posting on facebook so i

00:17:35.720 rarely make a facebook post and i think i usually tell people once you delete it from your phone

00:17:41.140 and you stop making posts you'd be surprised how little you care what's on facebook right you're

00:17:45.780 like like you log in and you're like oh it's the same three people having the same silly argument

00:17:49.840 that i don't care about and for me that really helped loosen the grip that facebook had in my

00:17:56.260 own life where i was like yeah why do i care what like megan from my spanish class in ninth grade

00:18:02.020 said about whatever like i don't even know these people like it really created this way for me to

00:18:06.760 make facebook less a part of my like overall um diet i guess and so i think asking folks to log

00:18:15.280 out for a couple of days is a good way of being like listen we're not saying delete it all together

00:18:19.700 we're saying temporarily get off of it and maybe even use that time to assess the role that it

00:18:25.320 plays in your life overall. Yeah, for sure. I think there's definitely a more like mental health

00:18:30.920 and like digital kind of wellness part of this for sure. And I also think that even,

00:18:38.760 so two things, I think, you know, when Facebook shut down, the glorious six hours when Facebook

00:18:43.020 was not online, we really did see how many people were relying on this thing and not just in the US,

00:18:49.440 but globally. And the global part was really striking because, you know, there's countries

00:18:55.920 outside of the US where you open the internet and it's Mark Zuckerberg's internet. And, or if you

00:19:02.240 like use WhatsApp, for example, that is the only way where you can communicate. And so, you know,

00:19:08.480 that's a part of the reason why we're saying like, you don't have to delete it. It's because we know

00:19:12.320 it's so integral to people's lives. And then I also will say that, you know, I was reading an

00:19:16.420 article today around, I think Facebook banned a developer who created this tool to help people

00:19:23.240 unfollow their feed, like have an unfollow, I guess, thing in their feed to unfollow friends

00:19:30.660 and pages and those sort of things. They came with cease and desist energy for this person.

00:19:37.660 They sent, you know, legal people after them and banned them from Facebook, I guess, for a life

00:19:45.320 or for a very long time um and that is the thing that we're trying to point out so like even if

00:19:54.060 facebook cares about their engagement and even if you take three days off that's going to matter

00:20:00.100 um to the company which means like you do have power for sure and go outside take a walk all

00:20:06.960 those things when you log off with us in november what are the demands that y'all are asking of

00:20:12.300 Facebook. I know that you're asking for folks to log, you're asking for just individuals to log

00:20:16.360 out for three days, but then you have specific demands that you're making of Facebook. Can you

00:20:20.360 talk us through some of those? Our demands are really focused on kind of stemming the harm that's

00:20:25.520 happening now. So we know we need an immediate removal of Mark Zuckerberg as CEO. He's doing a

00:20:32.500 lot. Straight fired. You want him done, gone. Like gone. You know what I mean? I would make a

00:20:39.040 reference to um the apprentice but i think that's like you can't we can't really do that

00:20:45.320 so you know we're just gonna say fire fired yes out um so yeah that is one of our demands you

00:20:55.060 know he's he is both ceo and chairman he holds a lot of uh power in the company and he's making

00:21:02.080 disastrous decisions. And it kind of stems from him. And then our other demands go over content

00:21:09.680 moderation policies. So we would like to see, you know, an overhaul of their policies. We want

00:21:15.800 implementation of privacy-centered data policies, a strategy for combating disinformation that

00:21:22.820 doesn't prioritize their bottom line, that like actively removes disinformation that is harmful

00:21:28.220 to folks. And these are just kind of the tip of the iceberg. We, you know, see this as the

00:21:34.220 beginning of a long-term fight to ensure that Facebook is like a safe place for people,

00:21:40.440 communities to gather. More after a quick break.

00:21:51.820 Behind every night spent making the kids' lunches, there's a lot of suspense. Will they

00:21:56.280 finally eat the veggies will the pesto survive the first bite will the lunchbox come home empty

00:22:01.360 half full or come home at all and will you finish episode eight before you're done slicing the

00:22:06.520 cucumbers get bell pure fiber internet with crave netflix and disney plus from 94 a month price

00:22:12.340 guaranteed for two years on internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit visit bell.ca

00:22:17.000 for details and to check availability bell connection is everything run a business and

00:22:22.200 not thinking about podcasting think again more americans listen to podcasts than ad supported

00:22:27.400 streaming music from spotify and pandora and as the number one podcaster iheart's twice as large

00:22:32.660 as the next two combined so whatever your customers listen to they'll hear your message

00:22:36.880 plus only iheart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio think podcasting

00:22:42.200 can help your business think iheart streaming radio and podcasting let us show you at iheart

00:22:47.860 iheartadvertising.com. That's iheartadvertising.com. If your bookshelf and your for you page are

00:22:53.720 equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast

00:23:00.760 that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives,

00:23:05.080 and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:23:10.040 I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books,

00:23:13.280 the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.

00:23:17.100 I'm going to have to look up this story.

00:23:19.000 I'm obsessed.

00:23:19.740 I'm obsessed.

00:23:20.680 From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators

00:23:23.300 to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.

00:23:27.020 It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters,

00:23:32.600 then that is a Trojan horse.

00:23:34.480 Whether you're looking for literary deep dives,

00:23:36.660 smart pop culture conversations,

00:23:38.460 or a community of readers who love to think a little too much,

00:23:41.700 you're in the right place.

00:23:43.280 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:23:49.640 See you between the pages.

00:23:51.680 When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.

00:23:57.520 I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:24:03.820 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.

00:24:07.440 I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything.

00:24:16.040 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.

00:24:20.300 I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.

00:24:24.860 I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.

00:24:32.280 They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

00:24:36.100 But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.

00:24:39.780 They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:24:43.380 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:24:56.820 Let's get right back into it.

00:24:58.300 But in terms of like asking him to step down, I feel like there aren't a lot of people calling, there aren't a lot of organizations calling for Zuckerberg to step down, which is interesting when you think about like what a terrible job he is doing at his, if you or I was as bad at our jobs as Zuckerberg is, we would have been fired a long time ago.

00:25:19.060 And so it's interesting how it feels to me that a lot of people are not calling for him to step down or be fired. And I love that y'all are just right out the gate. He shouldn't be allowed to be a decision maker anymore, or he's proven himself to not be responsible, a responsible, you know, leader of this massive, you know, massive platform.

00:25:40.280 him yeah i mean if i was as bad as my job you know i would be gone if i even thought about being

00:25:46.200 as bad as he was people would have me fired for sure and that is i think that is on you know what

00:25:52.940 we've already touched on around people don't think that that is an ask that they can make

00:25:58.140 and it's not something new that i think i've heard in spaces that we're in like there's

00:26:03.400 organizations mostly organizations you know with people of color who have been like yo this dude

00:26:08.600 has to go, you know? And so that is one of our demands because he is just doing the most and 1.00

00:26:18.460 not in a good way. Like he is failing to keep people safe offline and online. And, you know,

00:26:25.120 we just, we don't want it anymore. When we think about, you know, some of the harm that we know

00:26:30.260 that Facebook has been responsible for, you know, you had to say, is there anything that surprises

00:26:35.040 you or shocks you about the, about some of the harm that we know Facebook has been, you know,

00:26:40.620 party to? I think at this point, nothing shocks me when, you know, these reports come out. I'm

00:26:46.700 like, yes, of course they have. But something that was like striking recently was the information

00:26:53.260 around Instagram and youth and specifically teenage girls. And that I think hit home for a

00:26:59.760 lot of parents and a lot of people who like were teenage girls or are teenage girls or just young

00:27:06.620 people on the internet because you know so much of I think being young and being on the internet is

00:27:12.260 like identity formation I know for me like I was on tumblr figuring out like am like what is my

00:27:19.100 sexuality like what is gender oh there's multiple genders cool like all those things and I can't

00:27:25.080 imagine being on Instagram at 15 or 16, or even, you know, 10, 11, 12, like kids are now, and being

00:27:33.200 fed really, really harmful information. And then trying to go to school and do all the other hard

00:27:41.040 things that middle and high school do. And so that was something that was super striking. But I don't

00:27:45.460 think it was surprising. I'm the same way, right? Like, I came of age on the internet, if it wasn't

00:27:50.780 for, you know, America Online when I was 14, I would have never, I would have never kind of,

00:27:58.580 it was a, it was a real place of self-discovery. And I think there was not, I didn't have the

00:28:04.440 sense that it was like a marketplace for my pain and for my negative experiences where someone was

00:28:11.680 going to be making money, incentivizing me feeling bad about myself. And I know the kind of teenager

00:28:17.740 than i was if that had been the case i i don't know where i would be like i don't i i know that

00:28:23.520 i would not have had the ability i i it worries me i it's one of those things where i'm like wow

00:28:30.680 i'm really lucky to have come of age when i did and i think that our generation like the generation

00:28:35.760 that is coming of age online today they deserve a media they deserve to come of age in a media

00:28:40.440 landscape that is not a marketplace for their pain and i was we're so lucky that that it wasn't like

00:28:46.520 that when we were coming of age. And they absolutely deserve to grow up in a landscape

00:28:51.960 and find themselves online and have these online experiences that can lead to self-discovery and

00:28:57.040 can be so self-affirming. They deserve that just like I got. Yeah, absolutely. And they deserve

00:29:02.820 to know that there are people that are doing that for them. And I'm not even just talking

00:29:09.720 about groups like art groups, but I'm talking about the actual companies. They were talking

00:29:15.760 about Instagram for kids and responding to the Wall Street Journal reports Facebook was just like

00:29:21.080 well it wasn't that bad or we didn't really know or do it and it's like do y'all hear yourselves

00:29:27.620 like do you know children have you seen a child at all you have children like I'm so confused over

00:29:33.060 why you think this is okay but yeah kids kids deserve to create communities online

00:29:40.140 that are safe for them and that is part of the future that I want to see

00:29:45.760 So when you think about the future of our digital landscape, are you hopeful?

00:29:50.900 Are you like pessimistic?

00:29:52.960 Like, what are your thoughts?

00:29:54.960 I have to be hopeful.

00:29:56.140 Like, otherwise I wouldn't be in this work and I would be out real quick.

00:30:00.220 So I'm hopeful and I'm hopeful because there's groups, you know, not only ours, but our

00:30:06.060 partners who really think about this stuff in a way that is visionary.

00:30:11.820 And I really see more and more that technology issues are integrated into different other issues. So, you know, for example, we have green groups signed on to this campaign. We have groups like Ultraviolet that are working on this campaign. And we, you know, have groups coming from not just a civil liberties or tech accountability angle.

00:30:36.260 they really see the intersection. So I feel hopeful. I feel like one day we're going to

00:30:41.480 take down Facebook or make something beautiful that's otherwise, and it's going to be great.

00:30:47.920 Well, I'm glad that we have folks like you on our side on this fight.

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There Are No Girls on the Internet - November 09, 2021

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