00:00:52.860And I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.
00:00:58.680I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files.
00:01:02.260Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:01:09.820These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:01:13.640Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:01:21.260If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:01:27.400Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:01:35.640Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.
00:03:17.820And honestly, the person harassing Rabia does not need a bigger spotlight.
00:03:21.880But I do need to tell you the broad strokes of what's going on to make clear the full weight of how harassment can impact our real lives.
00:03:29.440I believe Rabia is at the center of a dangerous, coordinated harassment campaign being orchestrated by Mike Boudet, the host of Sword and Scale, a popular and successful true crime podcast.
00:03:41.320On his website, Mike sells merchandise with the slogan,
00:03:44.660Adnan Did It, a reference to Rabia's relationship with Adnan.
00:03:48.660He's encouraged his followers to show up at her public speaking events.
00:04:54.880And we need to talk about the way it unpacks our work and our lives.
00:04:58.000I was in law school, um, when, when the, the best friend of my younger brother was arrested
00:05:04.440non-said in 1999. And that has kind of gotten me, um, you know, it was just one of those things
00:05:11.260where I witnessed it up close and personal. I was there in his trial when he was convicted and I
00:05:17.340just witnessed the horror of, of all of it. And I couldn't believe what I was seeing. And I had
00:05:23.340no idea what the criminal justice system was like until what happened with Adnan. And our community
00:05:28.040also was pretty naive. So that's what really drew me in and kept me there all these years. He's
00:05:33.660still incarcerated, as most people know. But from his case, my work has stemmed out into doing other
00:05:41.060wrongful conviction work for the last six, seven years. That's been the focus of my work.
00:05:46.200Yeah. I read this great quote from your mom. She says, your time in this world is really limited.
00:05:51.240what are you going to do with it? And something about that, first of all, your mom sounds awesome.
00:05:57.400She's a force to be reckoned with, for sure. Something about that quote that really struck me
00:06:02.080was this idea that you are doing very important work, legitimately life-in-death work, working
00:06:09.920with people who have been incarcerated, all of that. This is important stuff. And we only have
00:06:15.880so much time in a day and so much time on this world and so much energy that we can expend.
00:06:21.000And so to see somebody like you going through harassment campaigns, do you ever feel that these kinds of campaigns are kind of deliberately meant to distract you from this important work that you actually have to do?
00:06:33.480You know, I have been through, I mean, numerous, very intense kind of onslaughts, like in different times in my life for different reasons, so different groups who want to attack me for different reasons.
00:06:49.040and um I think the first time I went through it uh really really it was really terrible it was
00:06:54.640around the time serial came out actually um but it wasn't so much related to serial it was related
00:06:58.800to some of the interfaith work I did and I spent um I learned my lesson because I spent about three
00:07:05.700months trying to respond to everything not realizing that how trolling works and how
00:07:10.920harassment works um then I when I realized first of all I felt I was sick I was exhausted I was
00:07:16.980physically, I had gotten really sick over that time just from the strain of it. Then the realization
00:07:22.720hit me that, you know, what they want me to do is not to function. They want me to, and they're
00:07:28.260winning because I'm spending all my time. Like, you know, it's like that whack-a-mole game, right?
00:07:32.440Like trying to respond to this thing and you respond to this thing and they come at you with
00:07:35.780another thing. I'm like, oh, this is brilliant. They're keeping me wrapped up in this crazy and
00:07:40.880I'm wasting my time and my health and my sanity and not doing my work. And so now I always think
00:07:46.880about it like that. But if this is preventing me from doing my work, they're winning. And so 100%
00:07:52.000it's a distraction. 100% what people who are harassing you online want to do is to make sure
00:07:57.240you cannot actually function. Yeah. All the women that I talk to who face intense harassment,
00:08:04.380that's something that they talk about. That's something that a lot of their situations have1.00
00:08:07.300in common. At one point, they are trying to respond to everything and really engage.
00:08:12.860And then they realize they're spending all their time focusing on the harassment. So whatever the thing is, whether it was justice work like you or activist work or writing, they are spending more time trying to respond to the trolls, which they will never be able to satisfy because that's sort of the trip of harassment.
00:08:28.900they're spending more time on that than they are sort of doing the thing that is their purpose and
00:08:34.180I believe that really is one of the the purposes of this kind of harassment it's to keep powerful0.99
00:08:41.120women or quote mouthy women or women who you know can accomplish something to keep it's to keep us0.98
00:08:48.020from accomplishing whatever it is that we're like meant to be doing on this earth yeah there's that1.00
00:08:52.680there's that aspect of it and then there's the aspect of they want you to like they wanted to
00:08:56.800drag you down to their level. They're punching up in almost every case. They're punching up.
00:09:01.720They want your attention. They want relevance. So your attention gives them relevance. Otherwise,
00:09:06.960they are irrelevant, essentially. That's so true. It's so true. And I know in your case,
00:09:12.460I can't help but wonder if part of the reason why some of the folks who really have an obsession
00:09:19.040with you and your work, part of it is because you're very successful, you're very effective
00:09:23.940at what you do. And that makes them even more angry. You know, it is kind of an attempt to
00:09:29.360drag you down to their level because you're so successful because they know you can be so
00:09:34.500effective. Yeah. You know, it's, it's interesting. You know, I, um, most recently in the last couple
00:09:40.140of years, the attacks have been coming from, um, this one particular podcaster and he's,
00:09:43.900he's actually an incredibly successful podcaster, which is what's shocking about
00:09:48.180this particular situation is like, dude, you, he, he might be much more successful in the sense of,
00:09:53.520I mean, in one metric, which is like, I think he probably makes a lot more money than
00:09:57.560what me and my team make doing the work that we do. But the metric that's important for us is like
00:10:03.400the value of our work. And the value of our work is, are we able to help exonerate the people whose
00:10:09.060cases we're working on? And basically just be able to cover our costs so we can do it so it
00:10:15.160doesn't cost anything to the defendant. Because for most incarcerated people, they can't afford
00:10:20.180the appeals. They can't afford the reinvestigation. We're able to cover those costs.
00:10:24.820So by that metric, my work is more, I would say, much more meaningful. Maybe that's bothersome to
00:10:29.500some people. But I can't say that I'm the most successful podcaster in the sense that we're not
00:10:35.140minting money over here. We're not. We're not.
00:17:57.800The weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:18:08.380I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:18:15.500I'm going to have to look up this story.
00:18:18.920From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.
00:18:25.020It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.
00:18:32.960Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.
00:18:42.100Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:21:04.840Yeah, like women of color, we are disproportionately targeted.
00:21:08.420I think that, you know, we, you said earlier that he has gone after other podcasters, white men. He's not making, you know, merchandise based around their work.
00:21:19.520There are people, there are certain kinds of people, we know exactly who they are, that they cannot stand a woman of color, like having any kind of backbone. They want us to be subservient. They want us to, they want us to be in our place.1.00
00:21:35.300They want to put us in our place. And yeah, I think that that's one of the biggest triggers
00:21:42.220for this guy and for others like him is that who the hell does she think she is? Why isn't she like,
00:21:47.660you know, getting in her place where she needs to be? And, you know, but what do you do? I mean,
00:21:55.660like we've seen this happen on a national stage. We've seen this happen with incredible black0.64
00:22:00.160female correspondents and journalists, you know, coming from a presidential administration. So1.00
00:22:05.140we've seen this happen in so many different ways. And I think that's really a big part of why I am
00:22:11.720a particular target for this person. I think that's so true. I think there's something about
00:22:17.480when a woman of color is outspoken, where people look at us and say, who does she think she is?0.99
00:22:23.300Doesn't she know that she's supposed to just lie down and take it or immediately, you know,0.93
00:22:28.420fall all over herself apologizing? The fact that you won't do that, I think it just,
00:22:32.480it triggers something very ugly inside of a certain kind of person yeah yeah definitely
00:22:38.040when these kinds of harassment campaigns the kind of thing that you've gone through or happening
00:22:42.100so many people and institutions that actually have power do nothing and i think that that's
00:22:47.540another hallmark of this kind of harassment that we see yeah you know uh social like i was you know
00:22:53.080on twitter this person's podcast has a verified account you know we know that de-platforming is
00:22:59.300of a very effective way of curbing harassment. And yet, you know, social media platforms seem
00:23:04.020to be doing nothing. You know, we see journalists describe what's happening to you as a, quote,
00:23:08.900feud, as if you as if you two are just sort of having some kind of a sparring match, and that
00:23:13.860this is not a pretty intense and serious coordinated online harassment campaign against
00:23:18.940you. You know, what is it like to see so many institutions and people with power really do
00:23:25.200nothing to curb this when they could. I mean, it's not surprising. We've seen this so many
00:23:31.180times, especially with women. I mean, we've seen this in so many different, um, like, you know,
00:23:36.260different controversies have taken place with women getting harassed and, and, and making it
00:23:40.400public. And you know, it's, uh, they gaslight you. So it's like, if you, if I'm being attacked0.99
00:23:46.100and harassed, whether it's in my DMS, it's my emails, it's all coming from the same source.
00:23:49.960however it's happening. If I call attention to it in order to get some kind of response from
00:23:55.680these platforms, then people say, well, why are that? Then it becomes a feud. They frame it like
00:24:01.160it's a feud and it's not a feud. It's me calling attention to his behavior. And if you don't say
00:24:07.740anything and you just take it, I mean, I guess that's kind of what they want. Just don't take
00:24:10.580it and take it. But these platforms, they don't really do anything. What has been more effective
00:24:15.300is, is asking people to just report, um, certain posts and tweets and stuff. Some get removed,
00:24:21.280some don't get removed. I mean, free speech first amendment is what it is. I guess we have
00:24:25.920the legal right to be as ugly as you want. I think I hit my, um, I kind of hit my limit when
00:24:33.700there were people, um, his followers and his mentions, and he's like kind of encouraging,
00:24:38.780he's encouraging people to go to like my speaking events to like find me in real life uh and then
00:24:45.920he had people saying things like hopefully she'll get murdered herself hopefully Adnan one more then
00:24:51.160I was like this has gone like too far and that's when I really that's when I finally kind of posted
00:24:56.340I said I have called on Twitter and Facebook to de-platform him this is the kind of stuff he's
00:25:01.300saying and encouraging and they won't and if something happens to me or my family then they're
00:25:07.620they, you know, they also need to be held responsible. Yeah. I mean, the kind of things
00:25:11.540that I've seen, you know, people, I'll see people be like, oh, well, she should just block him if
00:25:17.140she doesn't like what he has to say. He's blocked. I mean, exactly. You know, and it's like getting
00:25:22.460people to understand that this is not just something that is happening, like, quote,
00:25:26.640unquote, on Twitter, on the computer. I very genuinely sometimes worry for your safety in
00:25:32.360real life. And everything that we know about online harassment, when it even if it starts
00:25:36.200online, it doesn't stay online. And very often it's connected to real world violence. And so
00:25:40.520I am, I, when I see the kinds of things that he's encouraging his followers to do,
00:25:45.760I get very like concerned for your actual safety. Yeah. Yeah. I've had my moments of concern. I mean,
00:25:51.520I think, um, he, it just takes one unhinged person to think I got to do something about this,
00:25:59.220you know, especially because the way he particularly frames it is, I mean, it's such,
00:26:03.580I mean, like you, you see, you would be seeing this technique unfold like online, um, like with
00:26:08.340the elections. Right. So what Trump said was that these people are harming our elections. What this
00:26:13.080guy says is this woman is shutting down my podcast. I mean, he's got an incredibly successful0.68
00:26:16.600podcast. I'm not shutting anything down. Um, he's continuing to produce and I've gotten messages
00:26:21.100from, from people, from men saying, um, if you, if, if he ends up losing his podcast because of
00:26:27.980you, I'm going to come get you kind of stuff for a podcast. Right. Like, so the way he's framing
00:26:32.520it is to basically target uh is to direct people's um rage towards me in case like you know so they
00:26:40.520can like take out take out revenge or something in case like he you know he stops making a show
00:26:44.680which he's not gonna but um and on top of which everything that he's lost in terms of sponsors and
00:26:51.180it's it's been 100 him more after a quick break
00:27:02.520The new Red Bull Dragonberry and Tropicberry Energizers,
00:27:53.380If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:27:58.360This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:28:11.780I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:28:18.760I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.
00:28:22.020From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.
00:28:28.440It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.
00:28:36.340Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.
00:28:45.500Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.