There Are No Girls on the Internet - DISINFORMED： Understanding Section 230 with Evan Greer

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00:01:52.000 There Are No Girls on the Internet has been nominated for a Shorty Award for Disinformed, our mini-series on disinformation.

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00:02:14.220 You're listening to Disinformed, a miniseries from There Are No Girls on the Internet.

00:02:19.080 I'm Bridget Todd.

00:02:23.980 Okay, so a secret shame of mine is that I make a tech podcast, but I haven't really taken a public personal stance on one of the biggest tech policies of our time, Section 230, a piece of legislation passed in 1996,

00:02:35.820 which basically says that Internet platforms can be sued or held liable for content that people post on those platforms.

00:02:43.380 One reason is that it's a complex issue that requires a bit of nuance and complexity to even discuss.

00:02:49.300 You know who isn't exactly the poster child for understanding nuance and complexity?

00:02:53.360 Donald Trump.

00:02:55.340 Currently, social media giants like Twitter receive an unprecedented liability shield

00:03:00.600 based on the theory that they're a neutral platform.

00:03:04.240 My executive order calls for new regulations under Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act.

00:03:11.300 When he repeatedly called for ending Section 230, it kind of threw a polarizing wrench into the existing debate, turning the whole thing into a partisan talking point rather than a real conversation.

00:03:22.980 There's a diversity of thought about Section 230.

00:03:26.200 Last season, we spoke to attorney Kerry Goldberg, who advocated for changes to Section 230.

00:03:31.300 Here's a clip.

00:03:32.200 But they're saying that basically the Internet as we know it wouldn't exist without Section 230.

00:03:38.600 and we're going to lose you know all the this wonderful free exchange of ideas if we if we

00:03:47.100 lose section 230 and i call total bs on that because number one you're assuming that the

00:03:52.600 internet as we know it is a great place and that as we know it like should be preserved you know

00:03:58.220 it's kind of like any constitutional argument or or make america great again you're assuming

00:04:03.540 that it is, that things are great and that everyone has the same level of free speech.

00:04:11.300 But I mean, speech on the internet really belongs to those who are the loudest and basically

00:04:17.200 four companies, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, and Apple. I mean, they control the internet

00:04:24.260 and we've got all our issues with antitrust and also the quantity. So the most hostile people

00:04:31.080 on the internet are the ones who have the greatest protections.

00:04:35.680 But digital rights groups like Fight for the Future say overbroad changes to Section 230

00:04:40.720 will further harm marginalized communities online.

00:04:44.200 Evan Greer has been fighting for digital rights online for almost a decade.

00:04:47.940 My name's Evan Greer, and I'm a director of Fight for the Future,

00:04:52.040 which is a nonprofit that works to protect people's basic rights in the digital age.

00:04:57.340 Evan is also a musician, and a lot of her music criticizes big tech.

00:05:00.440 Here's a taste. 0.96

00:05:02.240 Once consent was manufactured.

00:05:08.840 Now it's harvested for clicks.

00:05:16.580 Algorithms make decisions.

00:05:19.340 I took a bit of a roundabout path to this work, actually.

00:05:22.520 I dropped out of college and became a full-time touring musician for about a decade

00:05:28.040 and traveled around making a living playing poppy, queer, political, punk, and folk music

00:05:35.420 for a living. I started touring playing about 200 to 300 shows a year and offering workshops

00:05:42.840 and trainings on a wide range of social justice, environmental justice, and economic justice issues

00:05:49.060 primarily for college students but also for labor unions and non-profits and high school students

00:05:55.740 and youth detention centers and, you know, kind of all different types of spaces.

00:06:01.740 And, you know, I really, through the course of that work, it was kind of, it was the early

00:06:06.000 2000s, the internet was exploding.

00:06:08.780 You know, I had more fans on MySpace then than I have like Twitter followers now, which

00:06:14.280 is kind of hilarious.

00:06:16.180 But it was also, you know, this was like pre-Napster, you know, and there was a lot of

00:06:24.060 musicians kind of coming out of the underground, um, folks who are queer folks who were, um,

00:06:30.840 playing, you know, music that was way outside the mainstream or who, you know, you know,

00:06:36.360 we're kind of marginalized identities, marginalized musicians. And we were seeing the internet as this

00:06:41.300 like incredible, um, engine and platform for giving us a voice, um, and kind of, you know,

00:06:49.280 taking on some of these gatekeepers that had always sort of controlled what was cool or what

00:06:56.360 music got to be heard. And so, you know, there were so many of us that were like putting our

00:07:00.900 music up for free on archive.org and then having people send us donations, like again, before

00:07:05.620 Napster, before Spotify, before any of this stuff. And so for me, that was like the wake up where I

00:07:12.840 was like, wow, this technology is really powerful. And it, you know, has this, you know, I distinctly

00:07:19.680 remember like one specific moment of my first tour of Europe, showing up at like a record store in

00:07:25.440 Prague in the Czech Republic. And there was like 119 year old punk kids that knew all the words to

00:07:31.640 all of my songs. And like, I had never toured there. I didn't have a record label. I didn't

00:07:36.240 have a publicist. And it just, it struck me as like, this is all because of the internet. Like

00:07:41.640 these kids have all downloaded this music, they've shared it, they've created a community

00:07:46.060 of like wanting to hear this type of stuff. And that was like, you know, just a really powerful

00:07:53.540 moment for me. And so when, you know, I wish I had some like really cool end to that story, like,

00:07:59.260 or whatever, but really the end of it is then I had a kid and I maxed out a couple credit cards

00:08:04.600 trying to make a living, you know, supporting a family as a transgender anti-capitalist folk

00:08:09.760 singer. And then I realized I might need a quote-unquote real job. This would turn out to be

00:08:15.660 an opportune time for Evan to be further pulled into the world of digital rights activism.

00:08:20.700 Today, Google's main page shows a black rectangle and the words,

00:08:24.020 tell Congress, please don't censor the web. Wikipedia has shut down the English language

00:08:28.640 version of its online encyclopedia for the day. A chorus of opposition was growing against

00:08:34.760 legislation called the Stop Online Privacy Act, or SOPA. Legislation ostensibly meant to crack

00:08:40.660 down on the piracy of copyrighted content online, but was widely criticized for the chilling impact

00:08:46.000 it would have on free expression online. Huge internet companies like Reddit, Wikipedia, and

00:08:51.160 Mozilla protested the legislation by taking their websites offline for 24 hours. About a year after

00:08:58.080 the organization had formed, a year after the SOPA strike, or the internet blackout as it was

00:09:03.740 often called at the time, which was the largest online protest in human history where I wasn't

00:09:10.080 even at the organization then, but Fight for the Future and many other groups basically mobilized

00:09:14.880 hundreds of thousands of organizations and websites to black out their online presences.

00:09:21.040 And we drove more than 8 million phone calls to Congress in a single day to defeat copyright

00:09:26.920 legislation that could have led to widespread internet censorship. So I kind of came into

00:09:31.540 the organization in the aftermath of that. For Evan, it was always music that illustrated the

00:09:36.760 power of the internet and its ability to connect people. And that's what drives her fight to

00:09:41.160 protect it. Just quickly started, you know, kind of seeing the parallels between the work that I

00:09:46.300 had done as an artist where I was trying to use a song or, you know, a little, you know,

00:09:52.600 introduction to a song to connect with people and move them on an emotional level to try to move

00:09:58.880 them toward action of some type or another. Maybe that was just throwing some money in the hat for

00:10:03.280 the benefit, or maybe it was, you know, signing a petition or writing a letter to a political

00:10:07.500 prisoner or whatever it was. But now with Fight for the Future, seeing, well, I'm doing kind of

00:10:12.780 the same thing. I'm not necessarily throwing out a song, although I still do write and record music

00:10:17.860 and I've got a new album coming out and the next single comes out next week. But, you know, we're

00:10:22.820 also sort of painting and coloring with with websites and with action tools and with videos

00:10:28.200 and with infographics but instead of reaching you know dozens or hundreds or you know for me on a

00:10:34.380 very very good night maybe a couple thousand people were able to reach hundreds of thousands

00:10:39.920 millions sometimes even tens of millions of people and move them to take action

00:10:44.740 and again it's that same feeling that I had at that show in Prague of just recognizing that

00:10:51.840 the internet has changed the rules for what is and isn't possible within our political system,

00:10:57.520 you know, in some ways that are really terrible. And I think we're starting to grapple with the

00:11:01.400 reality of that, but also in ways that are really profoundly transformative and democratizing.

00:11:06.500 And the way that, you know, Fight for the Future's goal is to ensure that technology

00:11:11.820 and the internet specifically are largely a force for empowerment and liberation,

00:11:17.380 rather than a force for exploitation and oppression.

00:11:21.940 So that's kind of my roundabout story of like how I came to this work and also why it matters to me.

00:11:27.100 I have to tell you that feeling that you described of the Internet being the source of uniting people

00:11:33.680 and connecting people across continents, across the globe.

00:11:36.980 That was exactly the same thing that got me so excited about the Internet.

00:11:40.060 When I first got my clunky dial-up computer, I was definitely putting hella viruses on it

00:11:45.140 by trying to download music off of Napster.

00:11:47.380 that was yeah that was such a uh transform like you know I grew up in a small town so that was

00:11:52.800 such a transformative thing for me and is why I'm so interested in the internet now and I love how

00:11:58.440 you've described this overlap and I noticed in your music there is quite an overlap between

00:12:03.160 your stances as it pertains to tech and big tech and the music that you make I was listening to 0.98

00:12:09.500 your song before we got on the call Emma Goldman would have beat your ass and on the on the band 0.96

00:12:15.440 campsite you tell you you describe the story behind that name can you tell us a little bit 0.97

00:12:20.400 about that yeah so it's funny i um it's interesting for this album i've ended up doing a few kind of

00:12:28.000 historical deep dives the song i have coming out next week is is sort of a trans liberation anthem

00:12:33.300 and i made a music video for it that features like archival footage of sylvia rivera and marsha p

00:12:39.260 johnson and the work that they did in the aftermath of stonewall but also going back even further to

00:12:43.600 like the Compton's Cafeteria riot. And like, I think of myself as someone who like, you know,

00:12:48.500 kind of knows my radical history or whatever. And every time I like really sink my teeth into this

00:12:53.480 stuff, I'm just so struck by like, how much of our history is kind of stolen or hidden from us.

00:12:59.480 And, and so this was an example that I wrote this whole song based on like an anecdote about Emma

00:13:05.020 Goldman that I, you know, I don't know, like had heard or maybe read somewhere. And then when I

00:13:11.020 And like I wrote up the whole song and I like, you know, was writing the introduction for

00:13:15.300 it was like, I got to go find a source for that.

00:13:16.900 And then I found out that it like wasn't entirely true, basically. 1.00

00:13:20.400 But the the the story that I had heard was that like she had like literally bull whipped

00:13:26.600 her like ex-boyfriend because he was like trash talking Alexander Berkman after he had

00:13:34.600 attempted to assassinate Henry Frick, who was like, you know, one of these robber baron 0.95

00:13:38.940 hyper-capitalist, you know, types. And, you know, it was sort of this like moment of division within

00:13:46.420 the left in the United States during that era. It turns out that it wasn't quite her ex-boyfriend.

00:13:52.580 It was like a mentor type guy. And yeah, he had condemned Alexander Frick and she like basically

00:13:59.460 like hit him with like a toy whip of some sort, which like to which I was like, how is there a

00:14:04.720 toy whip. That's just, this seems weird. I don't know if that's really a toy. This is all very

00:14:09.820 problematic, but yeah. And then apparently she like expressed regret about it later in her life

00:14:15.940 or whatever. But I don't know. I just felt like there was something powerful for me about that

00:14:20.140 kind of like expression of a woman's rage and specifically toward kind of a, you know,

00:14:29.700 someone who was seen as like a mentor or like a respected, um, man in the community and just kind 0.92

00:14:36.360 of like not taking any bullshit and like literally getting up there and like whacking him in front 0.97

00:14:40.940 of a crowd. Um, and so, you know, I just feel like I, I aspire to, to be that direct, um, in my, 0.93

00:14:49.640 uh, you know, uh, activism, et cetera. And, you know, Emma Goldman, um, you know, like every

00:14:55.560 figure throughout history, you know, had many nuances and, you know, but she's definitely

00:15:02.400 someone who has been an inspiration to me and many others. It's pretty punk rock, I have to say.

00:15:09.240 Right? I mean, come on. It's punk AF. The different kinds of campaigns that Fight for

00:15:15.100 the Future takes up, one of them really surprised me, this campaign to ban facial recognition at

00:15:20.980 festivals, like music festivals. And I had no idea that was going on. I used to work for a music

00:15:26.100 festival called Afropunk. And I thought, God, there are, first of all, hey, there's so much

00:15:30.200 overlap between digital rights and music and arts communities. And then also there are so many ways

00:15:36.140 that like surveillance is playing out in these ways that we might not even know. We might not

00:15:40.420 even be aware that we are being surveilled in these ways. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean,

00:15:45.480 the good news that I can say is that that campaign that you just mentioned, that we ran with Tom

00:15:50.440 Morello, the guitarist of Rage Against the Machine, and a bunch of other prominent musicians was

00:15:55.280 hugely successful. And we actually got more than 40 of the world's largest music festivals

00:15:59.980 to say that they won't use facial recognition surveillance at their events. And, you know,

00:16:06.240 for folks who maybe, you know, I'm sure folks are increasingly aware of facial recognition and the

00:16:11.640 problems with it. But, you know, for me, that's hugely significant, because a lot of the conversation

00:16:16.780 about facial recognition has centered on government and law enforcement use of this

00:16:21.600 technology, which makes a lot of sense because it's being used right now by police and law

00:16:27.280 enforcement agencies, predominantly targeting communities of color, predominantly targeting

00:16:31.700 black folks. And the technology itself is racist. It has racial bias baked into the current

00:16:39.620 algorithms. And it's automating and exacerbating these existing systems that are also already

00:16:47.640 racist. So when you take a system of policing that we know measurably has disproportionately

00:16:54.800 harmed black and brown communities for centuries, and then you layer on top of that a technology

00:17:00.340 that essentially just speeds up and automates those same discriminatory processes that were

00:17:07.080 already happening, you just get supercharged discrimination and supercharged state violence

00:17:12.140 toward a community that's already disproportionately affected by it. And so it makes, again, makes

00:17:18.400 perfect sense that the conversation has kind of started there with government use, but all of

00:17:23.060 those same things are true with corporate and private use as well. They're enormously discriminatory

00:17:29.220 things that private companies can do with a technology like facial recognition. And so

00:17:36.340 So music festivals, I think, were a really good example because it's so public and visible.

00:17:41.060 And all kinds of people like to go to music festivals, right?

00:17:44.080 And so I think it was one really good way, not just to kind of get these policies in

00:17:50.840 place to protect individual music listeners that want to go to a festival without having

00:17:55.140 their biometric information collected by a private corporation, but it's also sort of

00:17:59.360 a way of educating people, right?

00:18:00.800 Like getting prominent musicians talking about this helped put facial recognition on the

00:18:05.900 map as a dangerous, toxic technology that no one likes. And that's building momentum for what we

00:18:11.220 really need in the end, which from our perspective at Fight for the Future is something closer to

00:18:16.280 abolition than reform. We think that this is a technology that is fundamentally unjust and that

00:18:24.620 poses such a profound threat to the future of human civilization and liberty that it can't

00:18:32.140 be effectively regulated, it really does need to be banned outright for both government and

00:18:37.440 the vast majority of private uses as well. Let's take a quick break.

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00:19:49.180 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality,

00:19:53.160 welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club,

00:20:00.000 part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks

00:20:03.940 Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo,

00:20:08.740 and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations

00:20:12.920 everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. So obsessed.

00:20:18.480 From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments,

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00:20:45.580 or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:20:47.460 See you between the pages.

00:20:48.640 When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.

00:20:55.440 I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:21:01.800 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.

00:21:05.500 I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, 0.99

00:21:10.920 Shut up. Don't say anything. 0.99

00:21:13.580 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.

00:21:18.100 I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.

00:21:22.560 I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.

00:21:30.180 They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

00:21:34.080 But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.

00:21:37.540 They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:21:40.660 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:22:10.660 actions. I'm always struck by that. You know, there's that notion in Washington, D.C. that like,

00:22:16.460 oh, what people really want is like compromise and like, you know, watered down things. And

00:22:21.920 that's just so bogus. And like we see it again and again in politics that, you know, no, what

00:22:27.400 people want is like real fundamental change. And, you know, what we've seen is that, you know,

00:22:35.320 people are actually much more, resonate much more with the idea of this technology is harmful,

00:22:40.660 let's ban it than they do with, you know, what we really need is an opt-in consent-based

00:22:45.480 regulatory framework that like allows corporations to continue selling the stuff and profiting,

00:22:50.700 but put some rules of the road in place.

00:22:52.540 No, like that is not, you know, A, that's an incorrect policy that won't actually protect

00:22:59.180 the most vulnerable people from the harms of this technology, but B, it's just not a

00:23:03.200 good rallying cry either, right?

00:23:05.220 And so for us, it's always, you know, it's both about leading with what we think is right

00:23:10.100 and always fighting for the biggest possible, you know, or we kind of frame it as like just

00:23:14.840 this side of impossible, right? Like we always try to aim our sights as high as we can go.

00:23:20.260 And we're a very small organization. So we have to like ruthlessly prioritize, like,

00:23:24.480 is this really one of the things to go all in on and fight for? Or is this one of the ones we have

00:23:28.740 to just let go and hope somebody else, you know, picks it up and fights for it. But when we decide

00:23:34.820 to go in on something, that's at the top of our minds. It's basically, A, is this a win that if

00:23:41.160 we win will fundamentally change things and concretely benefit large numbers of people?

00:23:47.720 I first met Evan when she was leading a coalition call of dozens of progressive activists and digital

00:23:52.480 rights groups about Section 230 in response to the Safe Tech Act, legislation sponsored by

00:23:58.180 Senators Mark Warner, Mazie Hirono, and Amy Klobuchar to make changes to Section 230.

00:24:03.940 The last time Section 230 was changed was back in 2018.

00:24:07.660 The Stop Enabling Sex Traffickers Act, or SESTA,

00:24:10.520 got bipartisan support in the House and the Senate and was signed by Trump.

00:24:14.960 SESTA becoming law meant that platforms would be held responsible

00:24:18.260 for knowingly facilitating or supporting sex trafficking.

00:24:21.980 Now, this might sound like a good thing,

00:24:23.340 but it actually ended up causing a lot of harm

00:24:25.480 to people involved in sex work consensually who were not being trafficked.

00:24:30.100 Well-meaning celebrities endorsed the legislation and a PSA. 0.99

00:24:33.340 Call your congressperson or senator and say, what the f***?

00:24:37.260 Ask them to amend Section 230. 0.95

00:24:40.280 And then call them again until they do something.

00:24:42.340 Please call yours.

00:24:43.360 Will you call yours?

00:24:45.020 But this is why people like Evan say it's so important to have a thoughtful debate and conversation about Internet regulation.

00:24:51.220 Most people agree that something needs to be done.

00:24:53.540 But if you do something just to say you're taking action, you could end up inadvertently causing more harm.

00:24:59.800 And we know the people most likely to be harmed are those who are already marginal.

00:25:03.340 full disclosure as someone who makes a podcast about the internet people often ask me about my

00:25:09.520 position on section 230 and i am kind of ashamed to admit that i said like oh i don't really know

00:25:15.720 you know i'm glad i'm glad that smart people are having the conversation you know we last season

00:25:20.980 we spoke to attorney carrie goldberg who was very much in favor of changing section 230 and

00:25:26.280 you and i were on a call a coalition call about section 230 which was fascinating and i feel like

00:25:33.180 I learned so much. But the thing that really struck me was, even though we were on this coalition call

00:25:39.080 with civil rights groups and justice groups and social change groups, it was clear to me that

00:25:44.660 there was not consensus on the call of where folks stand. So I guess I want to ground our

00:25:52.120 conversation in that. But then my question is sort of, where do you and Fight for the Future

00:25:56.960 stand on Section 230? And what is your position on this legislation?

00:26:01.520 I think the way that you framed it there is really important, because I think one thing that's happened is Trump, just to put it bluntly, right? Like Trump started tweeting things like repeal Section 230. And, and then, you know, and frankly, you know, Joe Biden has also called to revoke Section 230.

00:26:21.380 And so part of what has happened is something that's actually a very complex policy debate and conversation has now been sort of thrust into the like CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, like level of debate.

00:26:38.340 It is a tiny law that's had a huge impact on the Internet as we know it.

00:26:41.420 And anytime that happens, just like the thoughtfulness of the conversation, you know, there's like a, you could draw a graph, right, of like, how much attention is this getting on cable TV to like, how intelligent of a conversation are we having about it?

00:26:56.120 And it's like a, you know, I'm not good at math, but they're like the opposite.

00:26:59.840 Yeah. And so I think but that said, I, you know, I think within social justice and civil rights and human rights spaces, there is a more thoughtful conversation happening in the sense that I think there is, you know, there's maybe broad disagreement around exactly what should be done.

00:27:22.600 But there's increasing agreement about the harms, right? Like all of us on the call that you

00:27:29.580 referenced agree, like big tech is a problem. Their business model is fundamentally incompatible

00:27:36.440 with basic human rights and democracy. They are exacerbating existing disparities in our society.

00:27:43.580 They are amplifying harmful ideologies like white supremacy that have long held a stronghold in the United States and around the world and within our political institutions and economic institutions.

00:28:00.920 So like everyone sort of agrees on the problems.

00:28:04.080 And I think we're now trying to figure out, well, what are the solutions?

00:28:07.400 And I think it's healthy that there's disagreement or ongoing discussion about trying to figure out what the solutions are, right?

00:28:16.120 And so, like, there's tons of groups that I work with every day on issues like surveillance or issues like privacy.

00:28:23.600 And maybe we don't totally agree on Section 230, but, like, we all know we're, like, trying to get to the same place, right?

00:28:31.520 And, like, I think it's healthy that we can have these conversations.

00:28:35.000 And that said, I think it's also really important that we push for a more thoughtful conversation.

00:28:45.300 And for myself, you know, one of the things I've been really specifically trying to do is urge nonprofits and progressive groups to listen to sex workers.

00:28:58.180 Um, this has been kind of my mantra, um, in this section 230 conversation, because really

00:29:05.280 when we talk about what would it look like to change section 230, we only have one concrete

00:29:10.580 example, which is SESTA-FOSTA, the last major piece of legislation that created a carve

00:29:17.060 out in section 230 that lawmakers claimed was intended to address sex trafficking.

00:29:22.380 and what we know is that in fact it didn't actually do anything to address actual sex

00:29:30.600 trafficking but it was devastating for sex workers and for their safety and it ended up

00:29:38.620 leading internet platforms to shut down entire subsections of websites shut down places where

00:29:46.020 sex workers were able to kind of set their own rules set their own terms and have more

00:29:51.260 autonomy. And that there's, you know, actual studies that show that that led to actual loss

00:29:56.940 of life, right? And so sex worker safety and advocacy organizations have been sounding the

00:30:01.660 alarm about this since before SESTA-FOSTA. And from where I'm sitting, it does frustrate me

00:30:07.200 that I feel like, you know, there are progressive groups who are just kind of,

00:30:12.440 you know, looking to beat up on the tech companies, which I'm all for, like, let's beat up on the tech

00:30:17.520 companies. I am with you. I am in the front row with a pitchfork. But in doing so, trampling or

00:30:25.200 ignoring the voices of, you know, a community that has already been disproportionately harmed by

00:30:31.360 uncareful policy change, right? So that's kind of a broader framing. But I didn't actually answer

00:30:39.420 your question, which is what is our position? So, you know, Fight for the Future sees Section 230

00:30:44.840 not primarily as a protection for companies,

00:30:48.760 but actually as an essential law

00:30:51.640 that essentially enables all user-generated content

00:30:56.540 on the internet.

00:30:57.820 So the speech of ordinary people, right?

00:31:01.840 The people who wouldn't be on cable TV or the radio,

00:31:05.180 but who are now able to create memes and jokes

00:31:09.260 and write blog posts and share videos on TikTok

00:31:14.080 or wherever, or, you know, share photos, or be an adult creator, or be a, you know, storybook

00:31:22.560 creator, or whatever it is. Section 230 is the law that essentially allows for all of that to

00:31:30.300 take place by making it so that corporations who care only about making money, right, and we should

00:31:38.760 always remember that, are not disincentivized from hosting our speech and our creativity and

00:31:47.020 our ideas and our opinions. And I think it's particularly important for myself as a trans

00:31:53.200 person, and I think for anyone who's a creator of a marginalized identity of any kind to recognize

00:31:59.280 that our creations, our thoughts, our ideas are often unpopular among the general public,

00:32:08.240 right? And so what Section 230 does is it basically allows platforms to host things

00:32:14.540 that might be unpopular and thus might get them sued. And what happens if you radically change or

00:32:21.960 remove or gut Section 230 is you put these content moderation decisions, which we know

00:32:27.480 the platforms are already doing a terrible job at, and it hands them to not away from the trust

00:32:34.320 and safety team or whoever is already doing kind of a bad job at it and gives it to the most risk

00:32:39.940 averse corporate lawyers in the world who are going to do an even worse job at it. These are

00:32:45.580 lawyers that do not have a power analysis. They do not care about the speech of marginalized people.

00:32:50.980 They just care about protecting their platform from getting sued. And so if that means that they

00:32:56.820 remove wholesale entire categories of speech or engage in widespread censorship of marginalized

00:33:04.340 people's viewpoints and posts and opinions, they will happily do that in order to protect

00:33:10.260 themselves from lawsuits. And that's what we saw with SESTA-FOSTA. It didn't actually end up coming

00:33:15.840 down on the companies. They just kind of figured out, all right, fine, we'll just shut down. This

00:33:22.000 is not about defending the companies. I don't particularly care very much about the company's

00:33:29.100 profits or how much money they have to spend on lawsuits. What I care about is the impact that

00:33:35.820 that then has on marginalized people's speech and particularly social movement. And for me,

00:33:42.300 Section 230 is such a crucial law for protecting speech, like, for example, a video of police

00:33:49.460 violence, which in a world without Section 230 would almost certainly invite lawsuits from law

00:33:55.620 enforcement who would claim that it's defamatory or that it's incitement, right? Like the Me Too

00:34:02.040 movement, where people are able to speak out about abusive behavior and platforms are willing

00:34:09.660 to host that speech because they know that they're not going to get sued for giving people

00:34:15.660 a platform to speak and speak their truth. And so I always think about the impact on those

00:34:20.880 movements. Fight for the Future sees Section 230 as one of the most important laws protecting

00:34:26.560 free speech and human rights in the digital age. And that doesn't mean that we don't think it can

00:34:31.900 ever be changed, right? No law is sacrosanct. Laws are just laws. But we are very concerned

00:34:39.140 that rushed or uncareful changes to Section 230 will do far more harm than good.

00:34:46.620 And we also think it's largely a distraction from the policies that we really need to be

00:34:51.640 fighting for, like strong federal data privacy legislation that cuts off the huge stream

00:34:58.540 of data that these companies are collecting and using to manipulate people, like banning

00:35:06.720 practices like non-transparent algorithmic amplification, where Facebook isn't just

00:35:12.600 letting white supremacists spout off. They are actively saying, hey, you seem like you might be

00:35:18.520 a white supremacist. Do you want to meet these other white supremacists in this white supremacy 0.95

00:35:22.320 group for the purpose of gaining more money through advertising, right? And so our feeling

00:35:30.620 is that there are real policies that are sitting right there in front of us, like passing strong

00:35:34.920 federal data privacy legislation, like enforcing existing antitrust and civil rights laws,

00:35:40.680 like pushing for FTC investigations into specifically harmful business practices,

00:35:46.640 again, like algorithmic manipulation, like micro-targeting, et cetera.

00:35:52.280 And we could be getting to work getting those done if we weren't constantly going around

00:35:56.760 in circles in this kind of partisan gridlock debate around Section 230.

00:36:01.480 and we could do it in a way

00:36:05.000 that would actually address the problem at its root.

00:36:08.720 And then finally, I'll just say,

00:36:10.800 I think one thing that people often miss

00:36:14.220 when thinking about Section 230

00:36:15.700 or one thing that's happening a lot

00:36:17.540 is I think lawmakers have almost gotten into their minds

00:36:20.260 that Section 230 or taking away Section 230

00:36:23.880 is like the only lever that they have

00:36:25.980 to hold big tech companies accountable.

00:36:27.940 And I hear this a lot from lawmakers,

00:36:30.400 from groups that I work with where they're like, yeah, I don't think this is really a good solution,

00:36:34.680 but I just don't know what else to do. Like someone has to do something about these companies,

00:36:38.260 right? And I resonate with that. Like these harms are real and they're happening right now

00:36:43.440 and they're traumatic. And we do have that sense of like, we have to do something.

00:36:48.900 But again, I think if there's one thing that we've learned over the last number of years

00:36:53.120 around internet policy, and if there's one thing that we should take away from SESTA-FOSTA,

00:36:57.580 it's that we have to do the right thing not just something because if we just do something

00:37:02.620 it'll almost always end up coming back to hurt the people who are already being hurt

00:37:08.020 and it won't actually hold the companies that we want to hold accountable accountable because

00:37:13.660 they have exponentially more resources they have deep pockets they they can afford the lawyers

00:37:19.520 right and so what we end up with if we make changes to section 230 that are not thoughtful

00:37:24.900 is we could actually end up solidifying the monopoly power of the largest, most abusive

00:37:31.400 players like Facebook and Google. They're the ones that can afford the armies of lawyers to

00:37:36.380 deal with lawsuits. And we might end up inadvertently crushing any alternative that

00:37:41.260 could come along and provide a better service or a better model or a better community online and

00:37:47.720 leave the big tech companies as the only ones left standing, because they're the only ones

00:37:52.480 that can afford to survive in a world without Section 230.

00:37:57.480 And so for me, you know, this isn't sort of like,

00:37:59.900 well, are you for the companies

00:38:01.320 or are you for, you know, holding them accountable?

00:38:05.040 For me, this is, I'm for the people,

00:38:07.260 I'm for human rights.

00:38:09.260 And I believe that defending Section 230

00:38:12.360 and fighting instead for real meaningful policy changes

00:38:16.380 that will actually address the root causes

00:38:18.900 of the harms that we see

00:38:21.400 from these surveillance capitalist monopolies,

00:38:24.500 that's what I'm fighting for.

00:38:26.260 And that's what Fight for the Future wants to see.

00:38:29.140 More after a quick break.

00:38:38.320 Behind every night spent making the kids' lunches,

00:38:41.080 there's a lot of suspense.

00:38:42.540 Will they finally eat the veggies?

00:38:44.020 Will the pesto survive the first bite?

00:38:46.060 Will the lunchbox come home empty, half full,

00:38:48.760 or come home at all?

00:38:49.960 And will you finish Episode 8 before you're done slicing the cucumbers?

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00:39:35.680 That's 844-844-iHeart.

00:39:38.220 When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.

00:39:43.440 I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:39:50.440 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.

00:39:54.140 I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything.

00:40:02.340 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.

00:40:06.620 I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.

00:40:11.220 I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.

00:40:18.840 They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

00:40:22.720 But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.

00:40:26.180 They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:40:29.820 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:40:37.600 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

00:40:44.480 This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:40:56.660 I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.

00:41:03.780 I'm going to have to look up this story.

00:41:05.680 I'm obsessed.

00:41:06.300 I'm obsessed.

00:41:06.800 from bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments

00:41:11.800 nothing is off the table it's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling

00:41:18.340 characters and that is a trojan horse whether you're looking for literary deep dives smart

00:41:23.620 pop culture conversations or a community of readers who love to think a little too much

00:41:28.380 you're in the right place listen to pro society on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever

00:41:34.860 you get your podcasts. See you between the pages. Let's get right back into it. I'm so happy that

00:41:46.000 you started this conversation being grounded in talk about sex work. It's kind of well to me how

00:41:50.800 often people who are involved in sex work are the ones who are really innovating online because

00:41:55.340 they have to, yet they're so marginalized and sidelined in those same conversations about

00:42:00.460 online policy. They're just not really given a voice in conversations that impact them so

00:42:04.580 directly. Your average sex worker is more of an expert on section 230 than like anyone, any PhD

00:42:10.900 or academic who like studies this, you know, content moderation or thinks that they do

00:42:15.380 because they have to be right. And like people's, I think this is also about reframing how we think

00:42:21.520 about expertise, right? I, you know, I've just been banging my head against the wall over the

00:42:26.320 last few months because I just constantly hear, you know, a panel on NPR and they have like,

00:42:31.660 you know random law professor a random law professor b and like a representative from

00:42:37.620 youtube or whatever or like you know some former cia guy who like studies disinformation when

00:42:44.360 they're not busy spreading it about latin american governments or whatever and like that's the panel

00:42:50.060 and you know and they're framed as experts and the reality is you know they're the people who

00:42:56.100 are experts in online harms and, and online and tech policy are people who have lived experience

00:43:04.940 with what these policies actually do when they go into effect. And I think, you know, if there is

00:43:11.660 one thing, you know, like if I could just snap my fingers and make anything happen, it would be to

00:43:15.780 force like every progressive nonprofit based in DC and every lawmaker to like sit in a captive

00:43:22.880 audience and just listen for a couple hours to groups like the Sex Workers Outreach Project

00:43:29.080 or Swap Behind Bars or Reframe Health and Justice or the Woodhull Freedom Foundation who are

00:43:35.600 leading the lawsuit against SESTA-FOSTA and actually listen and listen to how these policies

00:43:43.960 play out. Because it feels like, you know, often a lot of the conversations around Section 230 are

00:43:49.060 sort of framed as like, here's a bunch of terrible things that have happened. And, and, and everyone's

00:43:56.020 like, yeah, those things are all terrible. And then it's like, and that's why we need to change

00:44:00.060 section 230. And that's where the disconnect is because again, no one disagrees that there are

00:44:06.780 real harms that are springing from these platforms behavior, from their business models, um, from

00:44:12.320 the status quo. Um, you know, I am so far from someone who thinks the internet is fine. Just

00:44:18.300 leave it alone. We need real policy and we need to act quickly and we need to fight for meaningful

00:44:25.320 change. But again, I think that mentality of like, well, let's just do something so we can say we

00:44:32.560 did, I think is actually profoundly immoral. Because at that point, again, you're not recognizing

00:44:39.800 that just doing something, quote unquote, can actually end up doing really profound harm. And

00:44:44.700 if you're not listening to folks who are truly marginalized, who are actually have lived experience

00:44:50.380 with being on the wrong side of content moderation, with being on the wrong side

00:44:54.720 of platform power, then you're not actually fighting for policies that protect the most

00:45:02.880 vulnerable. And we're kind of just recreating a lot of the same mistakes that we've made in the

00:45:08.580 past. Again, I think, you know, for myself, I think often about the mainstream gay rights movement

00:45:14.160 that systematically for decades

00:45:17.940 deprioritized its most vulnerable members,

00:45:21.320 including sex workers and trans folks

00:45:23.840 and basically anyone who was not a cis white man 0.69

00:45:28.060 looking to get married or join the military.

00:45:30.620 And I think now our mainstream organizations

00:45:34.020 are recognizing those mistakes

00:45:35.820 and starting to reckon with them

00:45:37.400 and really genuinely are,

00:45:39.100 at least on a policy level,

00:45:40.260 starting to fight more for policies that benefit

00:45:43.340 um, you know, trans folks, or at least fight against, um, this surge in discriminatory

00:45:49.200 legislation, et cetera. Um, but then I see other movements where we're making the same mistake.

00:45:54.500 Um, and so for me, I always try to base my activism, not in what some academic says,

00:46:01.040 not in what's popular in Washington DC or what's hot button on TV, but in the lived experience of

00:46:07.240 people who have real experience with how these policies actually play out on the ground.

00:46:15.420 As someone who lives in DC and has worked for many an organization where I wonder,

00:46:19.620 you know, who are we actually centering here? I think in my personal activism, I always try to

00:46:24.780 think about the folks who are actually the most marginalized or the most oppressed, because

00:46:28.760 if we're able to center them and lift them up, we will all benefit. We will all benefit when the

00:46:33.580 people who are directly impacted and most marginalized are amplified, supported, and

00:46:38.940 lifted up. We will all impact. It fundamentally changes how you think about these things. And I

00:46:44.740 guess for me, again, I just wish that more folks were thinking about this through the lens of like,

00:46:50.300 what actually fixes this problem versus like, you know, how can we score some points against

00:46:55.320 the companies, right? Like I want to score points against the companies as much as anybody else.

00:46:59.300 These companies are doing harm. They're evil. They are profiting off of a business model that, again, is really incompatible with so many of the things that we hold dear. 0.72

00:47:12.680 but like I don't want to just dunk on them I want to like actually do something about their power

00:47:18.200 and take it away from them and put it back in the hands of of everyone right and reclaim the

00:47:24.280 internet as the technology that we talked about at the beginning that like you and I both have felt

00:47:29.980 the power of and that is giving us this opportunity to have this conversation right now and to let

00:47:36.080 people listen to it. And I just want to make sure that we, you know, as we're looking to address

00:47:43.220 harms, we also recognize the ways in which this technology has profoundly liberatory potential.

00:47:51.680 And I think it's also part of that is also about looking at the status quo, right? If we think

00:47:56.020 about the world before the internet, right, there was still disinformation. It was just on cable TV.

00:48:02.160 Look at crime reporting in the 90s, right, which was so blatantly, overtly anti-Black and racist, right? It was all about constantly hyping up crime in cities to play on people's fears, specifically white people's fears, to push racist policies, right?

00:48:20.760 Now we see that democratized in a way on with kind of, you know, things like Nextdoor and Facebook, etc. And it's still a problem, but it's not a new problem, right? It's a problem that has shifted mediums and shifted forms.

00:48:36.620 But I think there's something about the instinct to blame technology that is rooted in a collective unwillingness to acknowledge that these hateful, harmful, bigoted ideologies and movements have been part of this country since its inception.

00:48:55.840 And I think there is sort of a, you know, it's almost like a collective amnesia around that, that kind of pushes us to be like, oh, this is a new problem created by the internet.

00:49:04.940 And it's like, no, this is an old problem that's being reflected back to us by the Internet.

00:49:10.460 And instead of blaming the Internet, we need to actually hold ourselves accountable and work for the structural change that we need.

00:49:19.480 Structural change to our social safety net could actually be one potential solution to the spread of disinformation.

00:49:25.300 We already know that people turn to lies and conspiracy theories and distortions when they're scared or anxious.

00:49:31.040 If more people's basic human needs were taken care of, fear could drive less of our discourse

00:49:35.560 and policy.

00:49:36.540 I would argue that policies like universal health care and ensuring that everyone has

00:49:44.420 adequate housing and food and access to education and basic survival would do a lot more to

00:49:50.840 address things like viral disinformation than anything you could do to Section 230 or even

00:49:56.700 anything else with tech policy, because these are problems that are springing out of broad

00:50:01.940 structural issues, and then kind of being exacerbated or amplified by technology,

00:50:06.900 they're not being created by it. And I think that's actually really important and something

00:50:11.100 that is uncomfortable to grapple with, because it also sort of means like there isn't some

00:50:16.120 quick fix silver bullet, it kind of just means we got to keep doing the work and recognize that

00:50:22.760 change takes time. And, you know, I'm so inspired by those who come before us, who were, you know,

00:50:29.000 many of whom died before they actually saw the results of their organizing. And, you know, for

00:50:37.940 me, it's about recognizing that every day that there's something integral about protecting the

00:50:44.920 transformative power of this technology in the hopes that in future generations, we will look

00:50:51.280 back and say, I'm glad that folks fought to make sure that we have this tool and that it's available

00:50:58.260 to marginalized communities to organize and fight for our liberation. And that we fought back

00:51:05.100 against the worst uses of technology like facial recognition or like automated license plate

00:51:10.740 readers or other forms of harmful surveillance. Because I do think this debate or this fight over

00:51:16.860 whether technology will largely be a force for good or continue down this path of being

00:51:22.240 a force for exploitation and greed and corruption is going to determine not just the future

00:51:27.260 of technology, but the future of humanity.

00:51:30.580 And so for me, that kind of gets me out of bed every day and keeps me up every night.

00:51:35.060 But that's why I think it's worth fighting for.

00:51:37.880 Today's episode featured music from Evan Greer's new album, Spotify is Surveillance.

00:51:42.400 Check it out at the Bandcamp link in the show description.

00:51:46.860 If you enjoyed this podcast, please help us grow by subscribing.

00:51:58.460 Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi?

00:52:01.760 We'd love to hear from you at hello at tangody.com. 1.00

00:52:04.960 Disinformed is brought to you by There Are No Girls on the Internet.

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00:52:33.700 If your bookshelf and your For You page

00:52:36.220 are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

00:52:40.020 Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club,

00:52:42.960 part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level

00:52:47.280 of discourse. Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture

00:52:51.800 with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.

00:52:56.580 Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app,

00:53:01.060 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:53:04.440 I survived nine months in captivity, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive

00:53:11.040 what should have destroyed them.

00:53:13.120 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files.

00:53:16.720 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable,

00:53:20.420 abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

00:53:24.260 These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:53:28.080 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart

00:53:30.880 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

00:53:33.940 or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:53:35.980 I'm Nick Turturro.

00:53:36.900 You probably know me from NYPD Blue, The Longest Yard,

00:53:40.000 or Spike Lee's Black Klansman.

00:53:41.980 And on my new podcast,

00:53:43.180 Delivering Happiness with Nick Turturro,

00:53:44.720 I deliver pizza to a new guest.

00:53:47.040 I've shared a slice with everyone,

00:53:48.580 from Seth Rollins...

00:53:49.700 What are you doing with my belt?

00:53:50.940 ...to Bill Burr.

00:53:51.840 I don't think I've ever met somebody

00:53:53.900 so exactly out of their mind as I am.

00:53:56.940 And now, we even have more great guests coming up,

00:53:59.560 including the great John Turturro.

00:54:01.580 It's called happiness.

00:54:02.660 Delivering happiness.

00:54:03.720 And many, many more.

00:54:04.960 Open your free iHeartRadio app,

00:54:07.200 search Delivering Happiness with Nick Turturro,

00:54:09.300 And listen now.

00:54:11.300 I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb.

00:54:15.220 You know, I'm always searching for inspiration and useful tools to maximize joy.

00:54:20.540 Like when my friend Henry Winkler offered advice to aspiring actors and really anybody hoping to stand out.

00:54:27.580 You're not hired just to fill time and space.

00:54:30.340 You're hired to fill the space with you.

00:54:33.240 Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:54:41.040 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:54:43.540 Guaranteed human.

There Are No Girls on the Internet - March 23, 2021

DISINFORMED： Understanding Section 230 with Evan Greer

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