00:16:57.260Everyone's heard of fake it till you make it.
00:16:59.380And it's especially a thing in tech and media.
00:17:02.320Uber famously has never turned a profit.
00:17:05.240But when does fake it till you make it cross over from an ethos to an actual crime?
00:17:10.560Just ask the folks at Aussie Media, whose CEO, Carlos Watson, was arrested earlier this year for fraud for allegedly overvaluing his media company's audience in an attempt to defraud investors.
00:17:22.560According to journalist Ben Smith at The New York Times,
00:17:25.620the company's COO and co-founder, Samir Rao,
00:17:28.620even went so far as disguising his voice
00:21:03.420and you're not supposed to really peek behind the curtain
00:21:06.020because if you did, you might see that it's a house of cards or it's a little bit of a grift.
00:21:12.080Yeah, absolutely. And now that I'm a little older, a little wiser, a little more bruised from
00:21:17.720certain people or things that I myself pushed in those rah-rah days, this is partly what I do
00:21:26.920with Hazmat Hotel is I ask those questions like, is this really someone we should be covering
00:21:32.300with this much breathless, you know, like eyes wide, saucer eyes kind of bullishness,
00:21:41.660or is this something we should be a little more skeptical about? And so like the Elizabeth Holmes
00:21:47.060thing, that story that ran recently, the one, you know, after she'd been convicted and it was like
00:21:53.020the Madonna and child picture now, like a notorious picture that they ran in the business
00:21:57.740this section, if I recall. To me, that was scandalous. I think it's a testament to how
00:22:05.920fractured media is that it wasn't a bigger scandal because it managed to pass all those
00:22:13.020checkpoints and get not just the coverage, but the length. Do you know how expensive it is to
00:22:19.480commission a photographer for a shoot like that? There were wardrobe changes in that shoot. There
00:22:24.040was probably a stylist on that shoot now did elizabeth holmes pay for it i don't know but like
00:22:28.880we're talking this was like a resource intensive shoot for a newspaper you know over i think it
00:22:34.620it was like three jumps front page and then two and then a spread so like that's that's a that's
00:22:41.500an investment of a story and so that that response afterwards that like oh it's winking you know like
00:22:47.600there's a winking aspect to the story you just don't get the joke like no no no no no no no we
00:22:52.980don't do that at the times like you're not gq you don't get you know like no and also like don't
00:22:58.160talk down to me that you and p.s i love the new york times i love and hate the new york times it's
00:23:02.600like it's my bet noire i'm like obsessed with the times um but i just felt like that response did
00:23:08.540not wash with me and i was insulted by that response because i felt like you of all people
00:23:13.260should not go around pretending you're smarter than your audience like that's not cool that's
00:23:18.600not the deal we have with each other that oh you didn't get the joke it was a winking story no
00:23:22.880to know. That bothered me. What do you make of that response? Because I read the Vanity Fair
00:23:27.720piece about how the profile came to be, and they were like, oh, it wasn't a PR piece. It was pitched
00:23:33.700to us, and it was all above board. It certainly didn't sound that way. I agree with you. But I
00:23:39.520read another take that was like, maybe it's a piece about how easy it is for you to get conned,
00:23:46.240and the reporter also got scammed by Elizabeth, and it sort of meant to be like a warning piece
00:23:52.860about how easy it is to fall for a grifter, what do you take of that, or what do you make of that
00:23:58.980response? Well, this is exactly what I mean when I say, you know, the winking aspect of it and
00:24:06.400why I didn't wash with me. For starters, like, look, we're in an era now where you have a
00:24:10.500nanosecond. Even the Times maybe has two nanoseconds with its audience, like it gets the
00:24:14.320benefit of the doubt. But broadly speaking, like, we're in an era where the competition for your
00:24:19.960attention is ruthless. So as I tell my colleagues at GEO and beyond, you don't get the benefit of
00:24:26.560sitting on the reader's shoulder and whispering in their ear, it's tongue in cheek. The idea that
00:24:31.560you have that is ludicrous. It's laughable. And it's ridiculous. Like it's on its face. It's0.94
00:24:39.060ridiculous. And in the business section, no less, not the style. So like all of it just didn't was0.97
00:24:43.740like irritated me that that that's what we're going to go out with. That's the narrative we're
00:24:49.580going to go out with this. It was a total, come on. It was a total PR thing. Listen, if I got a
00:24:55.060call that said you can have the pre-jail Elizabeth Holmes for a Q&A, hell yeah, I would take it.
00:25:02.160But that's not the issue. The issue is not that they took an interview with her. It's how it was
00:25:08.480packaged and how it was delivered to us. At this moment in time, her crime, maybe not as worse
00:25:19.540versus the WeWork guy, but according to who, right? Her crime, she hurt people. She defrauded0.62
00:25:27.020people. So not only is the issue this notion that we didn't get the nature of the story,
00:25:34.560but also you're giving three pages of real estate to a woman who's had plenty of ink, by the way,
00:25:41.240and has been convicted of very serious crimes. That bothers me. For every story you do,
00:25:48.020there's a story you're not doing. We're in the age of limited resources for media, like notoriously,
00:25:52.460these resources are scarce, even at a company like the Times. So for every story you're doing,
00:25:56.640there's a story you're not doing. And that's what I spent a lot of time thinking about.
00:26:00.940Why did this story pass muster? So like, for example, what caught my eye just recently was,
00:26:06.140I can't remember if it was Twitter or threads, but the Washington Post was pushing a newsletter0.97
00:26:11.560about Barbie, which blew my fucking mind because it's the Washington Post. A newsletter, which is0.95
00:26:18.860a separate product that requires resources. It requires some engineering support. It requires
00:26:23.640product support. It requires editorial support. So lots of different stakeholders, resource
00:26:27.960intensive. It has to be populated with content. It has to have a calendar. These are all things
00:26:33.980that go into something like that about Barbie. So that tells me Barbie's doing phenomenal numbers0.99
00:26:39.380for the Washington Post. Otherwise, why would they do it? Which is interesting given their
00:26:42.620audience and their birth, right? Their remit. That's caught my eye and I just thought I need
00:26:49.560to hear more about that. Like I need to understand how that came to be. How do you sniff it out?
00:26:54.320Because no one is sniffing out these questions that need to be asked in stories like you.
00:27:00.560What gets your alarm bells ringing? When you see something, you're like, I don't know about this.
00:27:04.240Like I saw your story about Amazon Prime Day and the way that that was getting coverage, which I never thought about it before, how all of these different publications are like, here are the best deals for Amazon Prime Day.
00:27:17.620Even publications that every other day are critical of Amazon and their business practices.
00:27:21.960How do you sniff it out when something just doesn't seem right to you?
00:27:32.980I'm both tortured by it and obsessed with it. And I, you know, it's like, it's just how I'm wired at this point. So how do I sniff it out? I don't know. Like I read a lot and I ask a lot of questions. It's why I got into the business. I'm a curious cat. And I also love to talk to people. I love to talk to people and find out like what's hurting their business, what's what they're thinking about, who's up and coming in their business, who they're afraid of.
00:28:00.880And if they'll talk to me, I will absolutely talk to them.
00:28:03.780So there's just a lot, you know, I guess I'm just interested.
00:30:10.700Today, part of Leah's work is sniffing it out when media stories just don't seem right.
00:30:15.460And more times than I'm proud of, Leah's work has challenged me to think outside of my own preconceived frameworks.
00:30:21.620For instance, back in May, I came across a viral TikTok purporting to show boxes and boxes of books being removed from a school library in Florida.
00:30:31.980Naturally, I instantly contextualized this story within the larger context of book bans happening in Florida and across the country.
00:30:39.660Now, this is obviously a real thing that is happening in Florida, but that particular 30-second TikTok might not have actually been showing the full story.
00:30:48.060I mean this as a compliment. It might not sound like it.
00:30:51.620You often are saying it's often like not what you might think.
00:30:55.280Right. So like your your coverage really challenges me to look beyond my own biases or my own understanding of how I think stories come together in media.
00:31:04.720And it doesn't always align with my conventional wisdoms or, you know, biases or whatever I might be thinking like.
00:31:11.700And you do such a good job of pulling back the layers to what's actually going on.
00:31:15.440I'm thinking in particular of that viral TikTok where it was like a school library and they had all these boxes and boxes of books.
00:31:23.360And presumably these are books that are being removed from the school library because they're inappropriate, really feeds into the conversation we're all having about things like book bans and, you know, books being challenged in libraries.
00:31:34.240You called the school or called the library to actually ask, what's going on?
00:31:39.280And there was actually more to that story than like that 30-second TikTok would have you believe, no?
00:31:45.440Yes. I remember that. It feels like a century ago, but I think it might've been a month or
00:31:49.820two ago. Yeah. So there was that viral TikTok of like two bins filled with books. So there was
00:31:56.900the, the knee, I guess the knee jerk reaction is what usually catches my attention. And then I'm
00:32:02.280like, huh, you know, in that case, I also like to test myself, right? I like to, um, see if I can
00:32:09.200find a source who's going to give me the scoop quickly. So I'm always like, if I see that in
00:32:14.260the morning, my goal is to get it done by the end of the day, because I want to be able to tell a
00:32:18.140reporter, despite whatever deadlines you have, you can usually get a response by the end of the day.
00:32:23.440So part of it is just me staying on my toes. In that way, it was pretty easy, because I think
00:32:28.300it was Broward County, and there's like a Department of Ed there, and they put me in
00:32:32.360touch with their comms person, so I did get an answer by the end of the day. Now, then the
00:32:35.680inevitable follow-up I should have done to that was, do we believe the Department of Ed, right?
00:32:39.960Like they said, if I recall correctly, they said that they are, oh yes, there was a settlement.
00:32:45.480So that was the interesting piece of this.
00:32:47.020I learned from calling the comms person at the Department of Ed, at the Board of Ed,0.97
00:32:51.520whatever it is, that there was a lawsuit several years ago from black and brown students,
00:32:57.140the parents of them, because their schools did not have books that were as recent, as
00:33:03.040new, as in good quality and like the breadth of books in their school libraries that the
00:33:33.260Actually, they're complying with a lawsuit that's supposed to provide equity for students
00:33:38.220who might otherwise not get it. And, and that's like, that's an important thing we should be
00:33:43.360talking about. Now that's not to say the book bannings are not important. They a hundred percent
00:33:47.760are. Um, but we have a big problem in this country of misinformation and people believing
00:33:53.840that there's bias in media. And I do see it sometimes. And I think that's an example of it
00:34:01.180where, and it's, it's not coming from a venal place. It's not coming from a malicious place.
00:34:06.300It's coming from a place—like, it's easy to believe that.
00:34:09.320It makes sense that that, of course, we're looking at them throwing away books that might be, you know, about subjects that we want them to learn about.
00:34:19.900Leah critiques journalism because she has so much respect for the field.
00:34:23.800Journalists like Evan Gershkovic, the first American journalist to be imprisoned in Russia since the Cold War, face imprisonment, and worse, just for doing their jobs and reporting.
00:34:34.540So journalism is something to be respected and protected.
00:34:38.060You've opened the door to my big spiel.
00:34:39.520My big spiel is that journalists want to be seen as a noble profession.
00:34:47.720But to be afforded the rights and privileges that reporters get in the courts, in people's minds, in culture,
00:34:56.500you have to live up to standards that are a tradition, an honor-bound tradition of the
00:35:03.980profession, and that is reporting and doing your due diligence. That's like fundamentally the
00:35:08.920basics of it. You need to do your homework and you need to make the calls. And it has real-life
00:35:14.040repercussions because we're seeing courts claw back rights and privileges for reporters all the
00:35:19.380time. We're seeing reporters not be able to maintain confidentiality with sources in certain
00:35:25.020cases. They have to turn over their notes. They're being imprisoned for maintaining confidentiality.
00:35:32.340Court case after court case, this is very worrisome. I know this because I work with a
00:35:36.000First Amendment lawyer who's like the top of the game. One of the privileges of my job is I get to
00:35:41.400work with this well-known First Amendment lawyer, Kai Falkenberg. So I hear about these cases all
00:35:48.240the time. And so they're having real life impact on journalists around the country. So we damn well
00:35:54.900better do our part and not buy into narratives because they make for cheap stories.
00:36:00.140Have I written my share of them? You bet I have. And I am embarrassed by them. I am regretful of
00:36:06.820them. And I hope I never repeat them. But these are the lessons we have to learn from the last
00:36:12.920decade. And it pains me to no end to see reporters just... I think that's something we need to
00:36:22.620champion as a group. We have this, you know, this poor Wall Street Journal reporter stuck in a
00:36:26.760Russian jail for doing exactly what he should be doing for reporting, you know, for reporting. And
00:36:33.360he, you know, he's missing his family. He's probably suffering, Lord knows what. We can't
00:36:39.180take for granted that there are repercussions to what we do. I think it's very serious, our jobs.
00:36:45.200And it is a noble profession. But then we have to do our part to live up to what makes it noble.
00:36:51.360We have to report. We have to, like, make the calls. It's that simple. That's how I see it.
00:36:56.960I briefly worked in a newsroom, and I could see myself just seeing that TikTok, for instance, and just writing it up.
00:37:03.560Like, this gave me a big emotional reaction that aligned with my preconceived biases or my understanding of the world.
00:37:11.920And not picking up the phone and making that call, not doing the work of actually getting that there's more to the story than what I just saw on this TikTok.
00:37:20.880I'm really grateful that you're modeling how to not just fall right into that like easy story, easy write up and tell a fuller story because it really matters.
00:37:33.940Well, I appreciate hearing that. I've certainly, you know, endured my sheer blowback for having that opinion because I think it's often confused or conflated with conservatism.
00:37:45.100and I absolutely do not identify as a conservative. I think I'm pretty upfront with my
00:37:48.860politics, which is also odd for a journalist. But I will tell you this, one of the most memorable
00:37:55.520conversations I've had was during COVID. I started this podcast because I was home like everybody
00:38:01.420else was and I wanted to stay sharp. So I taught myself how to podcast. And part of it was just
00:38:05.580like figuring out who to talk to. I need to talk to smart people who have thoughts on what's
00:38:09.080happening. And one of the first conversations I had was with Errol Lewis. And Errol Lewis is New
00:38:13.400York famous. Like he's New York one reporter, like, like old school, like this guy is it.
00:38:19.880Right. But he also appears on, I forget what network, but he appears on cable all the time.
00:38:24.260He's just, he's just knows his shit. Errol Lewis is the guy. And, um, I, I had a nice conversation,0.99
00:38:31.060like I really memorable. I remember like listening to it again and again after, because what he said
00:38:35.540was so, it was profound. Like I'd never thought about it like that. We talked about objectivity,
00:38:40.900which is the hot button issue for journalists right now. And he was like, look, I have opinions.
00:38:46.260I don't shy away from sharing my opinions, but they're informed. Like nobody knows this town
00:38:51.580better than I do. When I show up to a meeting and I'm covering it, I know exactly what happened at
00:38:55.960the 10 meetings before. I know who the players are and I know why they're saying what they're
00:38:59.740saying. So I come to it with this breath and with this experience that is not challenged, by the way.
00:39:05.660You will never hear anyone challenge Errol Lewis for bias. Why? Because he did the work.
00:39:10.900He did the work. And so I thought that's so interesting. Like, yes, of course, of course, you're a human being like you're not 100 percent objective. You have feelings about this issue. You believe in right and wrong. You have you believe some issues fall on certain sides and you're you know, and he doesn't necessarily write it like down the line, but it's informed.
00:39:30.820And he brings that expertise to the fore.
00:39:34.240And I think that for me was like, that's become my North Star, whether he realizes it or not.
00:39:39.420But he had a real impact on me, that conversation.
00:39:42.640That girl boss, lean in era that allowed Elizabeth Holmes to rise up in the ranks has kind of come and gone.0.73
00:39:49.820And after all that, all that flash and promise around women in the 2010s, today, it's kind of hard to not feel like we're in a bit of a rougher place.0.95
00:39:59.660But one truth is that with all its flaws, women's media has always been there, telling our stories and speaking to us, even when other types of media weren't.0.96
00:40:08.440It's a super fraught conversation. When I was at Marie Claire, there were some things that were inviolable, right?
00:40:24.460There were certain values that the women's magazine was not negotiable on. This certainly this one. And I think that's true across women's media writ large. Like there are certain things if you're going to be and we don't speak of them. We just we just live them.
00:40:41.340We say that because for decades, women's magazines, this like afterthought in media, this look down upon category, occupied a very, I won't even say protected, but like a special place.
00:40:57.420We were in hair salons, places that men weren't.0.99
00:40:59.840And so we could have conversations with you that you couldn't have at home because your husband would beat the shit out of you if you talked to him about it, right?0.96
00:41:06.080We could talk about how like, oh, I got a terrible sonogram back and I'm not sure I can keep this baby. Or, oh, my husband's beating me. Or, oh, I, you know, I'm not satisfied sexually. Like these were stories that women's media was telling. And we can hold our nose up at them and say, oh, women in peril.0.98
00:41:23.320And, you know, they codified certain stereotypes of women.
00:41:28.440And there's sure, like, we can have that discussion.
00:41:31.240But we also need to talk about how this sneered at form of media was the one place where you
00:41:39.180could talk to a woman like she was in the bathroom at a restaurant and asked for a tampon.
00:41:45.200Like, you couldn't do that in Us Weekly or USA Today or People Magazine.
00:41:51.040And so I just want to acknowledge, you couldn't do that because we allowed for women that freedom. And that's part of the DNA of this repro rights thing. It just is. We take for granted that it is because it was early on. It was like this secret private forum. We could have discussions where we didn't judge women.
00:42:15.860Maybe we judge them about their weight.1.00
00:43:12.960But I've also seen the very thing that I love about this business, the wanting to talk about things and talk to people and hear what they have to say, whether you like it or not. I just don't like that we're becoming resistant to it. And I get it. I get it. I get why.
00:43:31.820I don't have a trans child whose rights are up for grabs. I'm not raising a kid who, you know,0.98
00:43:40.680I'm not looking for, you know, like I don't have as much on the line as a lot of other people do.
00:43:46.800And so I get that maybe I don't appreciate the stakes, but there's something about not being
00:43:53.620able to talk about it. Not like, I don't like that I'm the only person or like that comes with
00:43:59.820risks like i don't like that we're not supposed to talk about things like what's wrong with talking
00:44:04.880about things i'm not i'm not like trying to shove policy down your throat i'm just trying to have
00:44:10.780a conversation i'm trying to understand the world a little better trying to understand like we should
00:44:15.000be able to talk you know who i've been spending a lot of time with um i've been spending a lot of
00:44:18.840time watching um phil donahue oh my god my mom would if my mom were here she would be so down
00:44:54.880But I just remember like there wasn't the chair throwing that came afterwards, right? Like it's not new to this era. We saw that shortly after. But he had a way about him that felt like, I don't know if it was the era or him or maybe a bit of both, but he had a way about him that opened the floor to people to talk about how they really felt and what they could learn from someone who didn't feel that way.
00:45:19.460And there was something like nonjudgmental about it.
00:45:21.960And he also pushed, like if you watch some of those episodes, he would push them.
00:45:25.120So, but why do you, you know, like he was pushy.
00:45:28.040And I just, there's like, it was special.
00:45:30.320It was like a special thing to watch because he did not shy from hot button issues.
00:45:33.820We could never, there could never be a show like that right now.
00:47:15.220At best, they feed the lie that celebrities are just like us when we all know that, of course, they're not.
00:47:21.260And at worst, they help scammers like Elizabeth Holmes rise to power.
00:47:25.840I wanted to talk to you about the Elizabeth Holmes profile and sort of how that was a thing.
00:47:29.740You made a really interesting point about this profile of Meghan Markle, I think in the cut, where, you know, it's this long profile about her life, blah, blah, blah.
00:47:38.020And there's one little bit where she gives the author, like, suggestions of how she might be able to describe a specific little noise that she made.
00:47:48.860And that tiny little throwaway thing became the thing, right?
00:48:29.400but occasionally you'll get a story like that where something is revealed, right? And it's not
00:48:35.760often that something is revealed about someone who we think we know everything about. And
00:48:41.140that's interesting to me. So in the case of Elizabeth Holmes, it revealed something about
00:48:45.580the paper and not Elizabeth, which I thought was interesting, but like a process that you didn't
00:48:50.720know could happen there. But in the case of Meghan Markle, like what I found astonishing about it
00:48:57.000was that it was contrarian because at the time here in the US, there was this, especially on
00:49:04.620the coasts, there was this like, we must protect her, this kind of vibe, right? Like she deserves
00:49:12.980our protection. She's being vilified for her race. It's racist. And in fact, that might be true,0.98
00:49:19.940but there was like something that went against that narrative in that piece. And it was brave
00:49:25.680because doing so opened up the reporter to all the kinds of attacks that we see on social media
00:49:33.900now when we don't like what someone says. But it revealed something pretty amazing.
00:49:38.840And it confirmed this kind of other narrative about her that it's all contrived, that it's
00:49:44.340all manufactured. I mean, it literally confirmed that. You couldn't pick a better, which is partly
00:49:49.040why it was so juicy and delicious and tasty because she's literally confirming that this
00:49:54.660whole thing is artifice. Not that I think it is, but that it actually is. And I thought that was
00:50:00.960just really an incredible detail for the writer to put in, but how could she not, right? Like,
00:50:06.240wow, what a thing to have happen in an interview with a celebrity. I've done a few celebrity
00:50:11.520profiles. They're always negotiated to the nth degree, which is partly why I find them so boring
00:50:17.580because publicists are so wrapped up in them. It's very rare to get a piece with someone where
00:50:21.720a publicist is not negotiating everything from where it's at. Oh no, she doesn't want to go
00:50:28.280to a restaurant because she doesn't want to be seen or, you know, whether you can't talk about0.59
00:50:33.000the marriage, she doesn't want to talk about the marriage. And, you know, oh, she, you know,
00:50:37.140don't ask her about anything political because we're not talking about that. Like everything is
00:50:41.140so, you know, it's just like so massaged that I already know having seen the sausage get made1.00
00:50:48.680that so much of it is bullshit. So I rarely find them interesting. And I would love to see data0.95
00:50:54.240that shows if people actually get through these pieces, because I don't think they don't. I don't
00:50:58.060think they do. I'm trying to think of the last profile I read. I can't remember. But they're
00:51:03.760just like as an art form. They are for an era when we didn't have as much access to celebrities as
00:51:10.600we do now. So they're a very dated art form in my mind. I remember being part of a team that worked
00:51:16.820on one with a famous woman and i don't want to say who it is but people can probably guess
00:51:23.220she had just been married to a high profile political the family a high profile political
00:51:29.000family but the list of things that we were not supposed to talk about we could not even allude
00:51:34.160to this wedding this recent wedding and so basically it was like what the hell are we
00:51:37.940going to talk about like this is this is what do you think people want to talk about right it's like
00:51:42.680who if you're reading this profile you're going to want to talk about this recent marriage right
00:51:46.240Like, what else would you want to read about? And it was like, oh, no, you can't even allude to it in the most oblique of ways.
00:51:52.840So it was like, well, then how is this going to be an interesting piece that anybody wants to read?
00:51:56.580This is the one thing that people have on their mind when it comes to this person.
00:52:00.300Well, so this goes back to I don't want to, like, make it a larger point, but it is part of a larger point in that it's partly it contributes to this overall awakening that people are having about media, that they're wise to the game and they resent it.
00:52:15.720So that game is because we need the celebrity. We need the access to the other celebrities in that publicist roster. We need the studio not to be mad at us because then they'll invite us to important events and also maybe advertise with us, you know, or the beauty brand that that person is an ambassador for, we need their advertising. We don't want to piss them off.
00:52:37.340And like, there's a whole like business behind those decisions and people are wise to it.
00:52:44.160One of the, one of the most frequent questions I got asked when I was at Marie Claire and
00:52:49.720even after was, you know, oh, tell me what mascara to use or tell me like a makeup question