There Are No Girls on the Internet - July 08, 2023


Elon breaks Twitter to save it; Threads app slithers in for the kill; Meghan Markle gets an apology;Digital surveillance in France + Virginia + Sacramento. — NEWS ROUNDUP

Topics
Shein’s disastrous brand trip, the future of influencing, and the ethics of fast fashion (w⧸ Aja Barber!) Jonah Hill, Keke Palmer, and social media’s role in controlling relationships [PATREON TEASER]

Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 26 minutes

Words per minute

164.82

Word count

14,207

Sentence count

724

Harmful content

Misogyny

5

sentences flagged

Toxicity

14

sentences flagged

Hate speech

3

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
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00:00:34.920 If your bookshelf and your For You page
00:00:36.860 are equally important to your personality,
00:00:39.100 welcome home.
00:00:40.700 Pro Society is a weekly podcast
00:00:42.560 that's part book club, part group chat
00:00:44.480 for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice
00:00:46.180 and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:00:48.920 Each week, we're connecting the dots
00:00:50.360 between books, the internet, and pop culture
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00:00:59.020 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:01:08.900 There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.
00:01:17.020 I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.
00:01:22.260 I am here with my producer, Mike.
00:01:24.020 Mike, thank you so much for being here.
00:01:25.700 Thanks for having me, Bridget.
00:01:26.720 And I'm excited to talk all about the tech news.
00:01:29.700 And here's what you may have missed this week on the Internet.
00:01:32.580 So we're going to be kind of mixing it up a little bit today.
00:01:36.600 Honestly, there was so much to talk about.
00:01:39.900 A lot of it is related to Twitter.
00:01:42.020 So we're going to start with some news that you might have missed and then do a bit of a deep dive on Twitter.
00:01:46.780 Mike, how does that sound?
00:01:47.840 It sounds pretty good.
00:01:48.840 I hope people are ready because there's a lot to say about Twitter.
00:01:53.260 I know.
00:01:54.020 it's like we do our little segment, what's Elon Musk up to? And this is like an extended,
00:02:01.400 supersized version of what Elon Musk is up to. So I hope y'all are ready. But first,
00:02:07.080 let's talk about what else is going on. So this is a little bit delicate. I don't make any kind
00:02:12.960 of judgments about what kind of extracurricular internet searching activities listeners and folks
00:02:22.160 are up to. However, here is some news. Because if you've tried to watch pornography online recently,
00:02:28.400 you might have encountered some trouble. And that's because a handful of states have rolled
00:02:32.960 out age verification policies to access adult sites, where folks have to essentially prove
00:02:38.560 that they're over 18. So if you've ever spent any time at all on adult sites, more recently,
00:02:44.380 it's been like a little checkbox that you have to check to confirm that you are over the age of 18.
00:02:49.340 It feels pretty loose. I think you could probably just say, I am over the age of 18, and I don't think it doesn't really stop you from lying about that if that's what you want to do.
00:02:59.360 But that is no longer the case.
00:03:01.300 Now, when you go to sites like Pornhub in these states, it redirects you to a government-run website to prove that you are over 18 by submitting your government ID, driver's license, or passport information.
00:03:12.880 Currently, Louisiana, Mississippi, Virginia, and Utah all have these policies in place.
00:03:18.500 Virginia's went into effect just last week.
00:03:20.820 And according to The Verge, traffic dropped by 80% for Pornhub
00:03:24.840 after it first began enforcing age verification in Louisiana earlier this year.
00:03:28.620 And after that, it sounds like Pornhub just decided to start taking its sites offline
00:03:35.380 instead of enforcing this age verification policy.
00:03:39.560 So just sidestepping the issue altogether, kind of in protest.
00:03:43.200 So that also goes for other PornTube sites that its parent company runs, like RedTube.
00:03:49.220 So that means that thanks to Virginia's new rollout of this law, users in Virginia will
00:03:53.880 not be able to access PornTube sites like RedTube or Pornhub either.
00:03:59.040 Perhaps not surprisingly, last week, in the days immediately following this policy going
00:04:03.960 into effect, according to Google Trends, Virginia ranked as the highest state when it came to
00:04:09.240 searches for VPNs or virtual private networks.
00:04:12.320 networks that allow you to circumvent these location-specific barriers to accessing websites.
00:04:19.320 So I don't know if this is tacky to mention, but at one point, ExpressVPN was a sponsor of the show.
00:04:26.240 I don't think they are anymore. What's your producer hat on, Mike?
00:04:30.380 Is it tacky to throw out the promo code for folks who want to try out ExpressVPN?
00:04:35.880 I don't think so. You know, it's a useful service. We like ExpressVPN. Maybe they'll want to sponsor us again. We'd love to have them back. But in the meantime, yeah, maybe listeners want a free three months off their subscription. Where can they go to get that, Bridget?
00:04:54.500 You can go to expressvpn.com slash no girls to get an extra three months off with a 12 month plan.
00:05:01.320 Yeah, I, this is, again, this is, they're not paying me to say this.
00:05:04.980 I'm a big fan of VPNs.
00:05:07.560 I think it's just a good thing to have, especially when there's like super easy to use, hit a button and, you know, it's working behind the scenes.
00:05:14.280 But I do think that legislation like this, I think that we're going to be seeing more and more location-specific internet legislation. And so having a VPN, knowing how to use one wouldn't be the worst idea in the world for somebody, even if you were, you know, don't think of yourself as a techie who's going to need it.
00:05:33.060 Do you remember that time that I was in South Africa and you were in the United States and we wanted to watch Weekend at Bernie's 2?
00:05:39.160 And it was available in its entirety on YouTube in South Africa, but not in the United States.
00:05:43.740 So you used a VPN to try to access it and then you couldn't.
00:05:48.280 And we ended up doing like a Zoom screen share so that we can both be watching at the same time.
00:05:54.620 It was a very bad cinematic experience, but we did technically watch that movie.
00:06:00.780 Yeah, thanks to VPNs.
00:06:02.040 So I think that age verification online is a terrible idea for so many reasons, not the least of which is that it just doesn't really work.
00:06:11.100 The day that the Virginia law took effect last week, people on Reddit were complaining about not being able to access porn sites despite not living in or near the states where it's the law.
00:06:21.260 That's because IP addresses are notoriously kind of janky at being able to actually locate where a user is.
00:06:27.920 For instance, here in D.C., it's not terribly unusual for a user's IP address to say that they're in a nearby state like Virginia or Maryland, even if they have never been to one of those states, because it's a little bit janky.
00:06:40.400 Yeah, it's true. So in some of my research, we try to geolocate people who use various digital tools that we provide.
00:06:49.280 And it's hard to geolocate people. IP address is just very unreliable.
00:06:55.620 And personally, I don't think that we should be getting in the habit of being comfortable with having to give over our real names and government information and IDs in order to access the Internet.
00:07:06.300 Our government does not keep our private data secure and private right now.
00:07:11.120 In our episode about doxing with Shauna Sigalow, the digital security expert, we talked all about how if you've ever voted or paid a parking ticket or had the power or electricity turned on in your apartment, your state or local government could be selling your personal data to whoever wants it because that's what they do.
00:07:28.560 And so I think giving over more of our information under the guise of, like, keeping us safer just doesn't make sense to me, especially when it's under the guise of, like, quote, protecting kids online.
00:07:40.920 Because if we really cared about protecting kids online, there's a hundred other things that we would be doing to actually protect them from the corporate Internet forces that we know are exploiting and harming them.
00:07:51.880 And I think Wired really summarized it well.
00:07:54.360 They write,
00:07:54.740 The internet isn't a child-friendly place.
00:07:57.300 However, introducing age verification across the web is technical and complex.
00:08:01.800 In 2019, the UK ditched a multi-year plan to introduce age checks after encountering myriad problems.
00:08:08.400 The porn we watch is also highly sensitive.
00:08:11.100 Kinks are incredibly personal, and leaks of data online can be devastating.
00:08:15.460 Privacy advocates, porn companies, and some regulators say the move to introduce age verification introduces significant problems.
00:08:22.280 The concerns about young people accessing adult websites are real and widespread.
00:08:26.940 Less widespread is the understanding of the limitations of various age verification tools and the new dangers they might pose.
00:08:33.320 This is from Irina Reissu, director of the Internet Ethics Program at Santa Clara University's Markula Center.
00:08:39.320 Many regulators and others seem to think of age verification as a solved problem.
00:08:43.920 Technologists and privacy activists, including activists focused on protecting children, are trying to explain that that's not the case. 0.87
00:08:50.560 And I think that's absolutely true. I think that, you know, when we talk about state-specific legislation, for instance, around TikTok bans and things like that, I think that giving states and platforms more access to information about us, I find that a really wonky explanation for how that's supposed to make us more secure online.
00:09:13.320 And we just know how legislation can creep when people feel motivated by a desire to protect kids online.
00:09:19.300 Like in Mississippi, for example, another piece of new legislation means that nobody under the age of 18 will have access to digital materials made available through public and school libraries without explicit parent or guardian permission.
00:09:32.520 So no Libby access for e-books for teens.
00:09:35.800 And Book Riot reports that even if they do get a parent's permission, minors can't access digital materials if vendors do not ensure that every single item within their offerings meets this new, wide-reaching definition of, quote, obscenity per the state.
00:09:51.460 This legislation went into effect July 1st, and libraries had to sort of scramble to figure out how to comply with it.
00:09:58.440 Yeah, it's not clear what harm they're trying to solve here.
00:10:03.240 I guess they're kind of I guess the goal here is to protect kids from pornography, which, like you said, is a reasonable, laudable goal that I think most people could get behind.
00:10:17.000 But it seems like the result of this law is like huge numbers of adults not being able to access something that they should have every right to be able to access.
00:10:31.340 Uh, and I completely agree that it is scary to have to enter your government ID to do something that some people in power have decided is not okay. Right. Because you have to imagine that part of the goal here is just to like eliminate pornography entirely, which is a laughable goal.
00:10:54.820 But, you know, these a lot of these people who are caught up in this moral panic about protecting the kids, it's not like they are coming from a place of, you know, evidence based concern or evidence based solutions to actual problems.
00:11:13.520 They're like living in a fantasy land where librarians are grooming children by reading them stories that feature gay people.
00:11:22.640 And these are the same people who are pushing for these sorts of age restrictions, like you said, in Louisiana and I guess Virginia now, too, where you have to put in your government driver's license, which is nuts.
00:11:40.360 You know, I absolutely wouldn't want to give those same people who are putting these laws in place access to data about what I'm looking at online.
00:11:55.000 That is like the last thing I want to do.
00:11:56.840 And it really I completely agree. And it really comes down to something that Dr. Olivia Snow said that when we talked to her, that when you hear a lawmaker talking about legislation, regulating the Internet in a new way that is meant to keep kids safe, that that should be your big red flag that they are talking about cracking down on the behavior online of consensual adults.
00:12:22.880 Right. And that like how often protecting kids online is used as a smokescreen in order to crack down on what adults are doing online consensually.
00:12:33.280 And like, yeah, I just who who out there when they are doing their thing, when it's just them in their computer having their private moment, who wants to get their government ID with their first, last and middle name and whatever like their address on it?
00:12:53.100 who wants to get that involved in that exchange?
00:12:56.240 Nobody, nobody, nobody, like, who is this serving, right?
00:13:00.300 And I think it's really interesting
00:13:01.900 that we're allowing lawmakers
00:13:03.200 to introduce these new laws into our lives
00:13:07.220 and tell us they are for our own good.
00:13:09.760 When I think that anybody who's ever looked at online porn
00:13:13.020 knows that like, you can't close those windows out
00:13:16.960 fast enough when you're done doing what you're gonna do.
00:13:20.000 Do you want your license attached to it?
00:13:21.720 Of course not.
00:13:23.100 That's a great question. Who is it serving? You know, and relatedly, who would it most harm?
00:13:29.740 You know, it doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to picture a scenario where somebody is being taken to, you know, they're engaged in like a custody battle or something, and somebody gets access to somebody else's records.
00:13:46.800 And now it's like part of the public record that like so and so looked at online pornography.
00:13:53.100 Yeah, and I think that's a great point. And it also just reminds me of how often when we're talking about the way the internet is legislated, how often it will start in one place with online pornography, and then it'll start someplace completely different.
00:14:07.300 When Yahoo bought Tumblr, they were like, oh, we're not going to have there be sexual content. You might be thinking that's like nudity, but by the end, it was a whole host of content that wasn't necessarily sexual. It was content about people learning about their sexual or gender identities, right?
00:14:24.700 And so that's not necessarily sexually explicit, but how quickly the bucket of what they were cracking down on expanded.
00:14:33.020 And I think with legislation like this, you have to imagine that, like, yeah, maybe they're going to say, starting with pornography, but who knows where that could end up.
00:14:41.280 And that actually is a great segue to what's happening in France.
00:14:49.820 Let's take a quick break.
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00:15:39.320 that's 844-844-iheart when i was 14 years old i was kidnapped and held captive for nine months
00:15:47.400 I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.
00:15:54.380 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.
00:15:58.080 I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything.
00:16:06.260 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.
00:16:10.380 I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.
00:16:15.160 I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.
00:16:22.780 They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:16:26.680 But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:16:30.120 They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:16:33.760 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:16:45.160 and we're back. So lawmakers in France's National Assembly passed a bill that lets police surveil
00:16:55.320 suspects by remotely activating their cameras, microphones, and GPS location systems on their
00:17:01.520 phones, laptops, cars, and connected devices. Now, a judge will have to approve the use of
00:17:07.400 these powers, and a recently amended bill does forbid the use against journalists, lawyers,
00:17:12.660 and other people who work in sensitive professions.
00:17:16.340 Now, proponents of this measure say that it is meant to be limited in scope to serious cases
00:17:20.760 and that the maximum amount of time that police can surveil suspects is six months.
00:17:24.960 And geolocation can only be limited to crimes that are punishable by at least five years in prison.
00:17:30.860 Now, unsurprisingly, digital privacy experts are, to put it lightly, concerned.
00:17:36.820 According to Engadget, the digital rights group La Quadrature du Net,
00:17:40.620 I apologize for my bad French, previously pointed out the potential for abuse because the bill is
00:17:45.760 just not clear in terms of what it constitutes as a serious crime. So there are fears that the
00:17:51.460 French government could use this to target environmental activists and others who are
00:17:56.040 not grave threats. You'll notice that even though they say that this won't be used against folks
00:18:00.320 with sensitive professions, does that include activists, right? Does that include dissidents?
00:18:04.680 They also point out that just like in the United States, security policies do have a habit of
00:18:09.860 expanding, just like we were talking about with that porn legislation, right? That they have a
00:18:14.560 habit of expanding to less serious crimes. They give the example of genetic registration, which
00:18:19.780 used to only be used for sex offenders in France, but La Quadrature says has now been expanded to
00:18:25.760 being used for almost every crime in France. Yeah, I don't know about France, but here in the U.S.,
00:18:32.000 I feel like every time there's been some law that expands police surveillance powers,
00:18:37.780 One, two, three years later, there's a bunch of stories about how that law was abused, used in ways it wasn't intended, targeted people that weren't supposed to be targeted.
00:18:50.600 You know, those newspaper headlines, too, it's like the most obvious thing in the world.
00:18:56.000 This is all happening against the backdrop of protests in France, sparked by the police shooting and killing teenager Nihilam Razak.
00:19:03.640 Gizmodo reported that French President Macron actually threatened to shut down social media platforms as he claimed that protesters were filming, posting and organizing on platforms like TikTok, Telegram and Snapchat.
00:19:15.100 And I think that it really goes back to what we were talking about in the last story about how it may seem like something that we it's easy to think that these are things, measures that we should be taking to keep us and our community safe.
00:19:27.820 But it's so often that they sort of start out as being about one thing and then can sort of slowly become about another. That is a tale as old as time when it comes to surveillance policies like this one.
00:19:42.700 And so I think that these digital rights groups in France are really right to be pushing back on this and saying, hey, giving the police the power to turn on, remotely turn on the camera or the microphone to your phone, to your car, to your laptop, that should be something that we're really concerned about and don't just, you know, become okay with lightly.
00:20:04.040 Absolutely. I think privacy is something that we all need to take very seriously and protect. It is under assault. People have been saying that privacy is dead for years, and I don't think that's the case.
00:20:24.440 I think we still have a lot of privacy in our lives, thankfully, and I think it's super important that we all protect what privacy we have and resist efforts to make us all register with government ID if we want to watch porn, resist giving the state authority to turn on our phones and record from our cameras without our permission.
00:20:54.440 And it's, yeah, it's a, it's a scary world. These technologies really enable a lot of surveillance activity that would have been unthinkable years ago that like despots of the past wish they could have had access to.
00:21:12.300 and we've talked a lot on this show about some of the paradoxes of the internet how
00:21:18.940 at the outset it promised this like bright democratic future where everyone would have
00:21:25.360 a voice and everyone would be connected and like we kind of got that but we also kind of
00:21:31.420 got something very different where no one is anonymous and everything you say is traced back
00:21:37.120 of people. And that comment from Macron that you just read that he was going to shut off social
00:21:44.200 media because people were organizing. How many despots throughout history have wanted that power,
00:21:52.300 but just like didn't have it. But now that we are all, you know, communicating on apps that
00:21:59.580 are centralized across, you know, maybe half a dozen different apps, suddenly that does become
00:22:04.680 possible and what a scary proposition that is yeah and i don't know have you seen that episode
00:22:10.980 of that first episode of black mirror joan is awful oh yeah so something i won't give it away
00:22:17.540 folks haven't seen it but something that that episode really makes clear about the current
00:22:22.320 future that we're or the future the present that we're all in is how surveillance is sold to us
00:22:30.480 as for our own good, or even for our own entertainment. We should like being surveilled.
00:22:35.500 We should find it funny. We should enjoy the information that our apps and our platforms
00:22:41.740 have collected about us and sold back to us. And so it's kind of scary how, I mean, I'm not
00:22:47.520 immune to it either. I like looking at my Spotify end of the year list just like anybody. I'm not
00:22:52.480 a monster. Of course, I find that fascinating about information about myself. But the way
00:22:57.980 that we've been able to be desensitized to it. And sort of more and more and more and more of
00:23:03.500 our privacy is sort of for sale. And we are consistently told that it is for our own
00:23:09.700 protection, that we should be happy that it's happening. And another great example is what's
00:23:13.440 happening in Sacramento. So listeners of this show know that since the Supreme Court overturned
00:23:18.260 Roe last year, we have been following the very deep connections between technology,
00:23:22.660 digital surveillance, and abortion rights. And here's another update on that front.
00:23:26.520 The digital rights group, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, sent a letter to Sacramento Sheriff Jim Cooper, urging the sheriff's department to stop their practice of sharing automated license plate reader data with out-of-state authorities in anti-abortion states, including Alabama, Oklahoma, and Texas.
00:23:43.200 Adam Schwartz, he is the EFF's senior staff attorney, said that this practice is a threat to security and privacy
00:23:49.300 and that a sheriff in Texas, Idaho, or any other state with an abortion ban on the books
00:23:53.840 could use that data to track people's movement around California,
00:23:57.940 knowing where they live, where they work, and where they seek reproductive medical care, including abortions.
00:24:02.980 So back in May, the Electronic Frontier Foundation released a report showing that 71 law enforcement agencies
00:24:08.860 in 22 California counties, including Sacramento County, were sharing this kind of data, and that
00:24:14.500 this practice was actually in violation of a 2015 law that states that a California law enforcement
00:24:20.320 agency shall not sell, share, or transfer automatic license plate reader information except to another
00:24:26.920 California law enforcement agency. And so they're just, it sounds like, and I'm no lawyer, but it
00:24:33.160 sounds like they're just not doing that. They're just not following that law. The Sacramento
00:24:37.740 know, Sheriff's Office had a pretty weird response to those allegations, accusing Electronic
00:24:44.580 Frontier Foundation and the ACLU of being involved in some sort of like vast conspiracy to spread
00:24:50.900 lawlessness. I don't know. You tell me. Here's what they said back in May. Law enforcement
00:24:56.440 agencies commonly use information from license plate readers to investigate serious crimes such
00:25:01.640 as homicide, child kidnapping, human trafficking, and drug trafficking across state borders. So
00:25:07.220 very much like what we were just talking about, right? That like, oh, us collecting this data is
00:25:10.860 actually good for you because it makes you safer. Fine. However, they go on, some organizations
00:25:15.840 such as the ACLU and the Electronic Frontier Foundation have lied that law enforcement
00:25:21.820 sharing this information is an attempt to violate people's legal rights. These false claims are
00:25:27.560 intentional and part of a broader agenda to promote lawlessness and prevent criminals from being held
00:25:33.340 accountable so like i don't know if the electronic frontier foundation is in in on this like vast
00:25:39.800 conspiracy to enable criminals to just be lawless out on the streets i don't know that seems like a
00:25:48.120 pretty big allegation from the sheriff's office in sacramento county just chaos agents their only
00:25:57.680 interest is spreading chaos disorder uh yeah that's what they're doing that's where they get
00:26:05.040 the big bucks uh because they're out there just trying to foment chaos anywhere they can and
00:26:12.240 honestly it sounds like electronic frontier foundation was accusing the sheriff's office
00:26:17.640 of not following the law so then for the sheriff's office to turn around and be like actually
00:26:22.660 y'all are the ones who are lawless liars it is interesting right it's like their allegations are
00:26:28.880 so specific and the response is like well y'all are lawless liars who are just trying to help
00:26:35.980 criminals you know murder children one of these allegations seems a lot more believable than the
00:26:42.720 other to me i don't know that's just me it's such a good follow-up to those two stories we just
00:26:48.220 talked about about the creep of surveillance authority because exactly like you said it sounds
00:26:52.960 like from this letter that eff was saying hey you guys are currently violating the law by sharing
00:27:01.820 this information that you have collected through like police surveillance uh apparatus i don't know
00:27:10.620 what the term is but like through these license plate readers that are reading licenses and you're
00:27:14.680 sharing that with people who the law forbids you to share it with and people are going to get hurt
00:27:19.500 and the response was shut up we're going after criminals and you're a criminal too even though
00:27:27.580 the police are the ones breaking the law and the people pointing that out and pointing out this
00:27:34.640 overreach of a law that was intended to have limits and the fact that the police are disrespecting
00:27:41.380 those limits that were placed around this law to get it passed. But you have to assume we're put
00:27:46.120 there by legislators who couldn't get the law passed without them. So they were like, okay,
00:27:51.380 okay, we'll like put these limits around it. They can't share it outside of California
00:27:55.320 to get the law passed. And this sheriff is just like uninterested in that, right? He's going,
00:28:00.200 he's going after criminals and lawlessness. And why should any God fearing good citizens be
00:28:07.660 concerned that their data is just illegally being shared across state lines okay so if you liked
00:28:14.180 that response after the electronic frontier foundation sent the sacramento sheriff their
00:28:19.480 letter asking him to stop this practice this week he replied on twitter that first response i read
00:28:25.460 to you was like sacramento sheriff's department like official twitter this he took to his
00:28:31.440 personal Twitter to give this response. He said, quote, the bill and this law has absolutely
00:28:38.300 nothing to do with reproductive rights. My record on women's and reproductive rights has been strong
00:28:43.760 throughout my time in the state assembly, and nothing has changed since becoming sheriff.
00:28:48.860 Electronic Frontier Foundation has a track record of protecting child molesters, fentanyl
00:28:53.740 traffickers, rapists, and murderers. Perhaps they should focus more on helping victims rather than
00:28:59.800 continuing to shield criminals from prosecution. So if you thought the first response back when
00:29:05.340 EFF first made these allegations was a little much, being like, oh, no, no, you are too busy
00:29:11.900 holding hands with child molesters and fentanyl traffickers and rapists and murderers. It's just
00:29:18.080 a very intense response from what is a very measured letter about how they are following
00:29:25.100 the letter of the law. Now, I should say that Adam Schwartz, the attorney for the Electronic
00:29:30.540 Frontier Foundation, does say that he was not aware of any cases where license plate data was
00:29:36.760 used to prosecute someone for getting an abortion, but added, quote, we think we shouldn't have to
00:29:42.100 wait until the inevitable happens. And honestly, I could not agree more. And I think that the fact
00:29:46.920 that the sheriff is going back and pointing to his record when he was in the assembly on abortion and
00:29:53.760 reproductive care. I just I mean, I honestly think this is kind of a normal or expected take
00:29:59.840 from somebody who has not really thought very seriously about the landscape of abortion rights
00:30:05.340 here in 2023. And I think a lot of people, one, did not expect Roe to ever be threatened the way
00:30:11.380 that it was. And when it did fall, really had a kind of myopic view on the actual threats that
00:30:18.220 folks who are looking for abortions or need abortions are allies to people who need abortions
00:30:23.000 would face. You know, it's not it's one of the reasons why when I was in the reproductive
00:30:28.560 justice space, we're not we were like, oh, don't use like coat hanger imagery or talk about like
00:30:33.240 back alley abortions, because in 2023, that's not the threat. The threat is surveillance and
00:30:39.000 criminalization. Sheriff Cooper saying that this kind of data tracking and sharing with other
00:30:44.560 states has nothing to do with abortion and reproductive rights just goes to show how
00:30:49.080 limited his understanding of the reality of our abortion landscape in 2023 really is.
00:30:54.180 Because if he's never thought about how tracking somebody's license plate data in California
00:30:58.080 and then sending it to a state where abortion is criminalized, like Texas or Idaho, could
00:31:02.300 play a role in someone's ability to access abortion care, if he's never thought about
00:31:07.200 that, that really tells me all I need to know about how he's thinking about this issue.
00:31:10.940 Because even if that license plate data is not being used today, on Thursday, July 6,
00:31:17.420 2023, as we've just talked about in this episode, that does not mean that there will not be an
00:31:23.980 expansion of how that data is used. And in my opinion, it is not a question of if, it's a
00:31:30.700 question of when that data will be used to criminalize people who are looking for abortions.
00:31:35.180 And just because Sheriff Cooper doesn't see it and does not have that clear of a view of the
00:31:40.460 landscape of abortion rights in 2023 does not mean that it's not a risk. And it's really,
00:31:45.020 I can't believe that he would say, like, this has nothing to do with abortion when, I'm sorry, get real, in 2023, when you share license plate data from California to states like Texas and Alabama, it has everything to do with abortion rights.
00:32:00.700 And the important thing is that I think this isn't about this one sheriff getting it wrong and, like, isn't he a bad guy or isn't he clueless or something?
00:32:11.120 I have no idea about him.
00:32:13.000 The concerning thing is that he is the one who has the authority to decide how this private data that has been surveilled gets shared.
00:32:23.920 And like you just said, he either is clueless about the landscape of reproductive rights and legal threats to people seeking abortions in 2023, or he's faking it.
00:32:37.860 But either way, the data that he is sitting on of who has been driving around in Sacramento has real consequences for people.
00:32:50.780 And he, by his own admission, is making decisions about who could access that data and who can't without having apparently any clue about the legal risks to the people that he has been entrusted to keep safe.
00:33:10.720 um i would take i agree i would take it one step further and i would say because it is he like it
00:33:18.320 is not men i don't think that he i don't this might be a controversial take i think that for
00:33:23.620 a lot of men it's difficult to see the realities and the concerns of people who are not also
00:33:31.860 cis men. Seriously. I think that he's like, I'm pro-choice. That's all I need to do is like,
00:33:42.200 be pro-choice. And it's like, no, you need to also not buttress a vast network of interstate
00:33:49.880 surveillance. If you truly want to advocate for reproductive rights in this country,
00:33:57.360 That's what it looks like in 2023. It's not 1980, right? Just being supportive of abortion rights and voting along those lines is not enough in 2023. If you are propping up a vast surveillance network, that is going to get people who need abortions criminalized one way or another.
00:34:14.920 And if you're it's really something to see people who are tasked with supporting and advocating for these constituents not get that and so loudly proclaim that they don't get that.
00:34:30.260 He should be embarrassed.
00:34:33.960 So I looked up his record, and it does seem to be a little bit all over the place in terms of his record on abortion care.
00:34:40.940 But he obviously, from his statement, wants to think of himself as somebody who is a champion of reproductive care.
00:34:47.980 And if that is the case in 2023, you have got to be thinking about this issue a little bit more thoughtfully and with a little bit more foresight about how it's playing out.
00:34:58.200 Because in 2023, you cannot be propping up a vast digital surveillance network and tell me that you're on my side when it comes to abortion rights.
00:35:04.600 And I'll leave it there.
00:35:09.360 More after a quick break.
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00:36:02.880 your for you page are equally important to your personality welcome home this is prose society
00:36:09.500 the weekly podcast that's part book club part group chat for thought daughters pop culture
00:36:14.600 obsessives and anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same
00:36:18.640 level of discourse i'm eli rallo and every week we're connecting the dots between books
00:36:23.480 the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
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00:36:59.820 See you between the pages.
00:37:08.060 Let's get right back into it.
00:37:11.840 So it's not all vast surveillance networks.
00:37:15.400 Let's talk about the sun. 0.90
00:37:16.480 So we have talked a bit about Meghan Markle and how the coordinated hate campaign that she gets online targets her. 0.99
00:37:24.540 But one of the weirdest aspects of this story is that it's not just random hate mongers on YouTube publishing videos like 10 of Meghan Markle's micro expressions that show that she is actually a huge, mean person. 0.93
00:37:40.860 I almost said a swear word. I'm trying to swear less. I got some feedback about my swearing.
00:37:44.180 I was going to put a swear word there, but I didn't.
00:37:46.680 So you're welcome, listeners with children.
00:37:49.100 So it's not just like weird YouTube hate mongers.
00:37:53.640 It's also the press, like big newspapers who are targeting her.
00:37:58.780 Last week, the newspaper The Sun had to print a front page apology for an opinion piece about Meghan Markle written by Grand Tour star Jeremy Clarkson.
00:38:07.940 The piece, I can only really describe it as a lot.
00:38:13.720 Here's here's a bit from that piece. He writes, I hate her. Not like I hate Scotland's first minister, Nicola Sturgeon or serial killer Rose West. I hate her on a cellular level. Oh, no. Meghan is definitely worse than a serial killer. Right. Obviously. Like, what do you think of Meghan Markle? You think serial killer is here. Meghan Markle much further on the on the hate spectrum.
00:38:39.200 He goes on, quote, at night, I'm unable to sleep as I lie there, grinding my teeth and dreaming of the day when she is made to parade naked through the streets on every town in Britain while the crowds chant shame and throw lumps of excrement at her. 0.90
00:38:56.060 Everyone who is my age thinks the same way.
00:38:58.560 I don't know, dude.
00:38:59.600 I don't know if that's I don't know if that's correct.
00:39:01.580 But like everybody who is your who is your age is like, yes, I stay awake at night, gritting my teeth, thinking about her.
00:39:07.600 Now, in his defense, he did say that he was going for like a Game of Thrones reference with that. I don't watch Game of Thrones. So like I you watch the show. Is this does that does that check out? 0.84
00:39:18.360 Yeah, that does check out. That is a reference to a scene from the show. But it doesn't diminish it in any way. Like it's, it's not like she liked being paraded through the streets naked and having excrement thrown at her, you know, the character who was having to, who legitimately was like, she didn't enjoy it.
00:39:41.740 It was, like, very bad, and it was just as sexist in the show as it is in real life, you know?
00:39:52.360 So even if he was going for, like, a specific reference, I just think it's a little much to be printed in the newspaper.
00:39:59.180 Like, I can't believe that an editor read that and was like, okay, doesn't sound unhinged at all, definitely just publish it.
00:40:07.220 Just click publish and away we go.
00:40:08.720 Yeah, literary illusions aren't like, like, get out of jail free card for writing messed up stuff, right? Like, they add some context and maybe some some meaning or something, but they don't just like make it all okay, because it was a reference.
00:40:25.720 Well, the U.K. newspaper regulator, the Independent Press Standards Organization, agrees with you.
00:40:31.580 After this was published, they got 25,000 complaints about the piece, and they ended up launching an investigation into whether the piece breached its editor's code of practice.
00:40:41.440 Although, interestingly, the IPSO chairman, Lord Fox, said that the article was, quote, humiliating and degrading toward the Duchess.
00:40:49.060 But, according to Deadline, also rejected complaints that the article was racist in tone, inaccurate, or sought to harass the Duchess.
00:40:59.040 The piece was ultimately removed and the son was forced to print an apology to Meghan on the front page.
00:41:03.260 It is so interesting to me that they specifically go out of their way to say the piece was sexist, it was humiliating, but it was not racist and it was not meant to harass her, nor was it inaccurate.
00:41:19.060 I find that so interesting because, I mean, it really goes back to so much of our conversations that we've had on There Are No Girls on the Internet and also Internet Hate Machine about how the responses to Meghan Markle kind of work and how it's always right on the line of racist.
00:41:38.780 So it's like they're not going to overtly call her a slur. But I just have a hard time believing that if not for Meghan's race, that somebody would have found this acceptable to print in the newspaper. Right.
00:41:50.980 And I also think that because of the way that identity works, gender and race and class and everything else, it's so linked that it is the idea that if someone printed this about me in the paper as a black woman, I would not be able to say, oh, they printed it because I'm a woman, not because I'm black.
00:42:12.380 The idea that you can parse it and say, like, definitively not racist, sexist, but not racist, it's just not how it works because of the way that layered identity and the intersections of identity work.
00:42:25.320 And so it's fascinating to me to see this, you know, ethics board be able to say, like, nope, not racist, just put a big red stamp on that.
00:42:37.860 Like, I would be curious to know how they determined that.
00:42:41.080 Yeah, me too.
00:42:42.380 uh it's it's like how do you prove that it's racist right when like you said identity is
00:42:52.300 this big web of intersecting identities uh and the systems of oppression that uh traffic and
00:43:04.400 benefit from public uh sexist and racist attacks uh are so good at writing that line
00:43:12.120 it's it's a tough thing it's almost it's almost impossible to look at one isolated incident like
00:43:18.460 that or you know one isolated piece of writing even as terrible as this and like you said he
00:43:23.280 didn't include a slur didn't reference the color of her skin so like prove that it's racist but
00:43:31.800 then when you step back and look at the pattern of how this piece fits into a whole ecosystem and
00:43:40.460 industry around smearing and harassing her uh obviously it's racist it's it's a challenge i
00:43:51.200 guess uh it's also hard for me to think about the like what is this guy's title the ipso chairman
00:44:00.340 yeah it's like it's also a little challenging for me to think about this ipso chairman
00:44:05.320 who is like I guess in England he's like the top person in charge of the newspapers like what would
00:44:14.860 that even look like in the United States I can't even wrap my head around it well if you ask me 0.95
00:44:21.420 he should come on as a producer and co-host of the podcast yo is this racist because this white
00:44:28.040 man apparently is the arbiter of what is and is not definitively racist and we gotta get him on
00:44:34.680 that podcast as a co-host ASAP because his talents are being wasted.
00:44:45.680 More after a quick break.
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00:45:38.120 when i was 14 years old i was kidnapped and held captive for nine months i survived and i've spent
00:45:45.940 my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them i'm elizabeth smart
00:45:52.040 and these are the survivor files i just remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying
00:45:59.620 shut up don't say anything every week i'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable
00:46:06.280 i knew if he woke up without a doubt he was going to hurt me i started feeling that there was 0.90
00:46:14.120 someone at the end of my bed and i just started screaming they are abducted stalked controlled
00:46:21.600 and nearly silenced but these aren't stories about what's taken from them they're stories
00:46:27.200 about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:46:30.180 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart
00:46:32.940 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
00:46:36.100 or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:46:43.900 Let's get right back into it.
00:46:47.140 All right, Bridget, we got all the hard news out of the way.
00:46:50.880 What's Elon done now?
00:46:52.680 Well, something was definitely up with Twitter over the weekend.
00:46:56.840 And I have so much to say about it.
00:47:00.200 Let's break down what was going on.
00:47:01.860 First, Twitter started limiting who could and could not read posts on the platform.
00:47:06.780 They limited it to only people with Twitter login.
00:47:09.780 So if you didn't have a Twitter login, you could not see Twitter.
00:47:12.340 If you went to Twitter.com, it would redirect you to a login page.
00:47:15.360 Then yesterday, they quietly walked that policy back without ever acknowledging it.
00:47:20.740 So they rolled it out without acknowledging it, walked it back without acknowledging it.
00:47:24.600 Weird.
00:47:25.420 Then Elon Musk tweeted that they were going to start limiting the amounts of tweets that users could see.
00:47:31.200 If you were a Twitter Blue subscriber, you could see 6,000 tweets a day.
00:47:35.760 If you were an unverified account, you could see 600 tweets a day.
00:47:39.260 And if you were a new unverified account, you could see 300 tweets per day.
00:47:42.980 Elon Musk tweeted that this was a temporary measure to prevent data scraping.
00:47:47.860 There was some concern about like AI potentially scraping Twitter data to train its models.
00:47:56.800 Seems a little suspicious.
00:47:59.020 We'll get into that, but I'm not totally sure.
00:48:01.080 But that's what he tweeted.
00:48:02.180 So I don't know how it was for you all, but this happened on Saturday.
00:48:05.440 By Sunday, I was totally unable to see any tweets at all, right?
00:48:10.100 So like when I woke up on Sunday, obviously like the clock should have restarted in that 24-hour period.
00:48:16.720 But the moment I logged in, I was already getting the error that I had seen all the tweets that I could see, even though I had not been on the platform at all.
00:48:24.760 So by Sunday, the platform was just a no-go for me.
00:48:27.620 I don't know how it was for y'all, but let me know.
00:48:29.300 I'm curious.
00:48:30.160 And in case you're wondering, this also applied to official Twitter accounts for emergency services, like the National Hurricane Center or Amber Alerts.
00:48:38.140 They also could only, you know, see the 6,000 tweets per day if they were Twitter Blue subscribers or 600 if they were unverified, which is pretty concerning.
00:48:49.720 Like, had there been a hurricane or had there been an Amber Alert, maybe there was, it's probably good to have these organizations be able to see more than a couple of tweets, you know, particularly if they're paying for Twitter Blue.
00:49:03.240 That's something that I fully kind of don't understand is how, if I'm paying for like a subscriber experience, how am I getting my tweets capped?
00:49:14.820 It's like, what was the point of paying if it's like, oh, you get all these features and also can only see 6,000 tweets a month?
00:49:19.680 Like, what's the point of paying?
00:49:20.460 One other consequence about not being able to see tweets if you're not logged in is that it has caused Google to remove all tweets from Google results.
00:49:31.300 So it used to be that if you were searching for something online and Google thought that a tweet was relevant to what you were searching for, it would include that tweet in your search results.
00:49:42.200 But that's no longer the case because of this change that only logged in users can see it.
00:49:49.420 And that's a pretty big deal because Google's responsible for over 90% of all searches in the U.S.
00:49:56.000 And I don't know how much Twitter traffic was coming from Google, but I have to assume some.
00:50:03.280 And Twitter being removed from Google seems like one more big step towards Twitter becoming less relevant in the overall information ecosystem that we all live in and get our information from.
00:50:19.200 So what the heck is going on here?
00:50:22.040 Well, the short answer is we don't totally know.
00:50:24.900 So there was some speculation that it was related to Twitter not paying their bills.
00:50:29.760 This is from BBC.
00:50:31.100 Data scientist and ex-Twitter employee Dr. Ruman Shadri told the BBC that it was unclear if AI organizations had actually been scraping data from Twitter, but suggested that financial issues could be behind the changes.
00:50:44.060 Frankly, I think I'm in the majority of people who believe that it's due to Elon's lack of payment of his bills and that he's attempting to reduce his cost, she said.
00:50:51.860 I have since seen other people who kind of claim to be in the know saying that it was not related to unpaid bills.
00:50:59.720 So I really couldn't say.
00:51:01.340 Former Twitter head of trust and safety, Yoel Roth, said that Elon Musk's official explanation about trying to prevent data scraping doesn't sound totally right.
00:51:11.360 saying, it just doesn't pass the sniff test that scraping all of a sudden created such a dramatic
00:51:17.180 performance problem that Twitter had no choice but to put everything behind a login. So a lot
00:51:23.980 of theories being floated around. I should be clear that we don't know which one is the truth.
00:51:29.100 Don't leave me a weird comment on Instagram, Elon Musk, a la a certain magazine, because I'm just
00:51:37.760 speculating and summarizing other people's theories we don't know what's going on but
00:51:42.740 mike you actually have a theory we were talking about the other day no yeah i mean it's not like
00:51:48.500 my theory but like you said nobody really knows what was behind all of these like large surprise
00:51:58.440 changes some of which were announced some of which just like quietly happened uh but clearly
00:52:03.480 something was up. One thing I saw over the weekend was a post from someone speculating that
00:52:09.800 this was due to Twitter unintentionally releasing some very bad code in their attempts to restrict
00:52:18.340 the site to only authenticated users who were logged in. So the idea here is that for whatever
00:52:25.260 reason, Twitter wanted to make that change so that people who weren't logged in couldn't see it.
00:52:29.480 Uh, and to do that, they had to change some of their code about how Twitter works and the code that they released to do that was just bad and caused a lot of problems. Uh, and the evidence that this person had for it was that they shared a screenshot of their console from their web browser showing that, uh, you know, as they were logged into Twitter, their computer was just like hammering away at Twitter's servers with a bunch of networks.
00:52:59.480 requests. And so they were speculating that perhaps that was what caused Twitter to have
00:53:07.420 to put up, put in place these limits because, you know, first they tried to restrict it to
00:53:14.500 only logged in users, but they executed that so poorly that it created this enormous drain on
00:53:21.120 their, on their resources. And so they had to put the limits in place just to be able to keep
00:53:27.460 things moving at all. And so for a while, the hashtag self DDoS was going around for self
00:53:34.720 distributed denial of service attack, making fun of Twitter for crashing its own servers through
00:53:39.660 its bad code. So that seemed consistent with the screenshot that he had shared. And it seems
00:53:47.900 consistent with the chaotic scattershot approach to decision making that Twitter seems to do under
00:53:55.460 Elon Musk. But like I said, it's just speculation. Who knows? I also love the Dave's on vacation
00:54:01.900 theory, the sort of joke that Elon has fired or laid off so many engineers that Twitter is now
00:54:08.680 operating with a skeleton crew. So people are speculating that this engineer named Dave, who
00:54:14.900 I guess is like a fictional engineer, took his family on vacation and there was nobody there
00:54:20.420 to answer the phone while he was out and twitter imploded i love i love the dave's on vacation
00:54:26.000 theory of like oh yeah dave's up with the wife and kids up in the adirondacks for the weekend
00:54:30.160 none of this stuff's gonna work yeah i like that one too and it's of all these it's probably the
00:54:38.600 closest to correct yeah none of us know and it it really seems like the true answer which we'll 0.92
00:54:46.240 probably never know maybe we will uh is some version of they tried to do something stupid 0.98
00:54:51.820 they screwed it up and had to do more stupid things to try to like dig themselves out of that 0.99
00:54:58.160 hole and i think we're still there maybe maybe they're up and running they're up and running 0.99
00:55:03.800 now um and whatever the rationale was we may never know the truth what we do know is that
00:55:09.060 the vibes on twitter are not good right the engagement is down advertising revenue is way
00:55:15.600 down. It's kind of funny to me that we're having this conversation after the new Twitter CEO,
00:55:20.560 Linda Iaccarino, was just going on and on about how she was going to make Twitter brand safe again
00:55:25.160 and bring back advertisements. This is not doing that, right? I don't know why somebody would want 0.91
00:55:31.060 to pay to be advertising on a platform that would limit how much tweets people could see,
00:55:37.520 advertisement included. Doesn't make any sense to me. What's also funny is that we didn't really
00:55:41.620 hear a ton from her when this was going on. She was kind of doing some sneak likes of Elon's
00:55:47.100 tweets. But like, I would expect the CEO to be making a statement about this, but she didn't
00:55:52.300 really. I guess she's just like, oh, whatever Elon says, I also I'm going to like that on Twitter.
00:55:57.840 And not to mention the fact that it's just a janky, confusing experience for folks who are
00:56:03.160 trying to navigate it still. Right. Like I was trying to use Twitter to navigate stuff happening
00:56:07.600 globally as I often do. And it just was impossible to do that. You know, verified tweets were coming
00:56:14.600 up at the top that weren't saying anything that was accurate or useful. It just wasn't a good
00:56:19.400 experience. And so I think the vibes were not good over there. And it just seems like it is not
00:56:24.520 well thought out in terms of how they are rolling out these changes and then quietly rolling them
00:56:29.260 back. Not well thought out really captures it. And it's not just their users. There's an article
00:56:36.300 and Mashable this week about how developers of third-party apps are fleeing Twitter, too,
00:56:41.220 because they are similarly being jerked around and having functionality that they were promised
00:56:49.020 taken away or just break on them without notification. Did you ever use the app
00:56:56.660 Who Unfollowed Me? No, I'm way too anxious for that kind of thing. I don't want to know.
00:57:01.380 okay yeah no one would ever unfollow me in my mind i guess i'm yeah so it was like a useful
00:57:08.920 and kind of fun thing uh but it relied on their api and now it's just gone uh because the the api
00:57:18.320 points uh first the developer had to pay for them and so they they paid uh however much it was a
00:57:28.000 month but then like twitter changed what endpoints they were able to actually access after they had
00:57:36.380 paid for it um and so even like big developers who've shelled out up to 42 000 a month for
00:57:42.440 enterprise access have been complaining that the apis just break all the time twitter will make
00:57:47.600 changes without telling them which forces them to do like emergency maintenance to try to keep
00:57:53.000 their apps working. And according to this article, a lot of them have just given up and are done with
00:58:01.760 Twitter. And so that's just, I think, one more sign that things are going poorly in Twitter land
00:58:08.820 for everyone involved. So speaking of giving up and being done with Twitter, I can relate.
00:58:14.660 And it seems like a lot of other regular users of Twitter can relate as well, because with this big
00:58:19.240 roadblock for the platform, a lot of people are looking at alternatives for Twitter in a way that
00:58:24.260 I have not seen since Elon Musk first took over like seven months ago. So let's talk about a
00:58:29.240 couple of the different alternatives to Twitter floating around out there. There's Blue Sky,
00:58:34.480 a platform that I've played with a little bit. It was a platform conceptualized by Jack Dorsey,
00:58:39.840 the former CEO of Twitter, that is still in beta and is invite only. It's very similar to Twitter.
00:58:45.500 We're going to be doing an episode about it more in depth, but it's kind of like a Twitter
00:58:49.620 alternative where a lot of folks who you might see on Twitter are there doing their thing.
00:58:55.820 Another is Spill, which launched on July 12th.
00:58:58.200 It was conceptualized by two former Twitter staffers.
00:59:01.700 Hopefully, we will hear from the creators of Spill on this very podcast very soon.
00:59:06.100 Spill kind of strikes me as a spot that is meant to be specifically building community
00:59:11.320 around marginalized users, Black folks, queer folks.
00:59:13.960 When you log into Spill, which is still invite-only, you have to—like, it's very clear, like, we're not about hate speech.
00:59:21.600 We're here for marginalized people to be able to show up.
00:59:23.940 I find that kind of interesting.
00:59:26.220 I don't think it's, like, explicitly a space just for marginalized people, but I think it's clear that they want it to be a space where marginalized folks can show up.
00:59:34.180 And there's a heavy, like, black Twitter contingent to Spill.
00:59:38.420 But again, we'll hear more from the creators in their own words, hopefully very soon.
00:59:41.800 And the one that I really want to talk about today is IG Threads.
00:59:46.060 So I have to admit, I have not tried IG Threads.
00:59:49.320 It has been out for like 30 hours.
00:59:51.440 And in that time, I have not been able to download it.
00:59:54.420 I'm actually not sure if I will, question mark.
00:59:57.540 Maybe I'll decide during the course of this episode.
01:00:00.180 But it's being called the Twitter killer.
01:00:03.020 So I've seen some people that I trust talk about Threads being good.
01:00:07.200 It just launched yesterday.
01:00:09.360 Overnight, 30 million people joined it.
01:00:12.360 It shot to the, I think that currently it's the most downloaded app on the App Store.
01:00:17.900 It's only for iOS right now.
01:00:20.060 I think one of the reasons I've seen people that I trust kind of be like cautiously optimistic
01:00:26.780 about it is that it pulls from your current Instagram following.
01:00:30.460 So you don't have to start from zero.
01:00:32.440 And I think like, even if you're somebody who is really good at building community online
01:00:37.080 and really good at like, you know, engagement and getting followers and all of that.
01:00:41.680 Nobody wants to start from zero.
01:00:43.140 And so I think that that is a reason that I've seen people say that it might be good.
01:00:49.020 Let's talk about some of the reasons why it might not be good.
01:00:51.920 One big thing to know is that if you download Threads, it is a separate app separate from
01:00:57.340 your Instagram.
01:00:58.160 So if you download it and then you decide you don't like it, you have to delete your
01:01:01.960 entire Instagram account to entirely get rid of that app.
01:01:06.040 So according to the Thread Supplemental Privacy Policy, you may deactivate your Threads profile at any time, but your Threads profile can only be deleted by deleting your Instagram account.
01:01:17.080 Ars Technica also quoted my personal nemesis, the head of Instagram, Adam Mosseri, who said,
01:01:22.920 You can deactivate your Threads account, which hides your Threads profile and content. You can set your profile to private. You can delete individual Threads posts, all without deleting your Instagram account.
01:01:33.320 Threads is powered by Instagram.
01:01:34.620 So right now it's just one account,
01:01:36.560 but we're looking at a way
01:01:37.300 to delete your Threads account separately.
01:01:39.040 So I don't know.
01:01:40.080 I just don't like that.
01:01:40.940 I think that if you were one of the,
01:01:43.720 you know, 30 million people
01:01:44.980 who just wanted to try it out and join,
01:01:47.540 you shouldn't have to completely delete
01:01:51.460 your Instagram account
01:01:52.620 if you decide it's not for you.
01:01:54.260 Now, again, as he said,
01:01:55.020 you can like private your Threads
01:01:57.000 or hide your Threads,
01:01:57.980 but if you want out entirely,
01:01:59.760 I think it's a little bit much
01:02:00.800 that you have to completely delete
01:02:02.260 a completely separate app to do that. I don't like that. Another thing to know is that you cannot
01:02:08.560 only follow people that you want to follow. The feed is a mix of people that you follow and people
01:02:13.700 that you don't. As Ars Technica reported, some users have actually complained that their feed
01:02:18.280 is flooded with content from accounts that they never followed, seemingly outnumbering posts from
01:02:23.140 their friends. But in classic tech bro style, this thing that users are complaining about and saying
01:02:30.180 is annoying, is actually a really great feature. They just don't get it yet. Because in a blog post,
01:02:36.500 Meta touted this default feed as a feature, not an annoyance, saying, quote, your feed on threads
01:02:42.860 includes threads posted by people that you follow and recommended content from new creators you
01:02:47.440 haven't discovered yet. So, you know, an influencer that you've never heard of and don't care about
01:02:52.420 spamming your threads feed is just a friend you haven't met yet. So those are some of the
01:02:57.160 logistical reasons that maybe threads isn't so great. But let's talk about some of the bigger
01:03:01.700 kind of thornier issues. Number one is that it is Facebook, people. Do I really need to say
01:03:08.200 anything else? It's Facebook. So the people that brought you everything that comes with Facebook,
01:03:12.620 they are also bringing you threads. That should really be enough. Jason Kent summed it up really
01:03:17.360 well in this tweet that I love. He writes, misleads about metrics, inflates video opportunity,
01:03:21.520 covers up data breach, empowers foreign interference, aids in genocide, blocks free and plural press,
01:03:28.220 hides damning harms research, abuses users' privacy, copies competition, launches new app,
01:03:34.580 where can I download it? Sounds a little funky when you put it that way, right?
01:03:40.320 I get it. Man, I get it.
01:03:43.020 So because it's Facebook, that means that there are very big privacy concerns with threads.
01:03:48.360 Threads collects a lot of data about you, which can include things like your sexual orientation, race, ethnicity, biometric data, trade union membership, pregnancy status, politics, and religious beliefs.
01:04:01.140 Threads can also collect data on users' employment as well as health and fitness activity.
01:04:05.460 Beyond that, the app also can collect data monitoring your location and other web activity.
01:04:10.520 Now, if you're listening to this in the EU, you do not have access to threads, and that's because of the European Data Protection Board's binding decision that Meta did not have an appropriate basis for processing personal data to serve up behavioral ads.
01:04:25.140 It's kind of a whole legal mess, but here's how TechCrunch put it.
01:04:27.880 Currently, Meta does not even offer users a general upfront choice to deny its tracking and profiling, let alone explicitly ask if it can share data on your health conditions so advertisers can sell you diet pills or whatever.
01:04:41.160 And with even harder limits on surveillance ads coming down the pipe in the EU, an app that proposes to track everything to maximize its appeal to advertisers will be a tough sell to regional regulators.
01:04:52.820 And so, yeah, if you are someone who wants to get on threads, you should just be aware of the amount of data that Meta is collecting from you from threads because it's a lot.
01:05:06.240 And I should say, obviously, Facebook is not the only platform collecting your data.
01:05:10.460 Twitter also collects your data, albeit, I think, a little bit less than Facebook does.
01:05:14.280 But it's just generally good to be aware of Facebook's practices and histories around our sensitive data.
01:05:20.680 Yeah, all of it.
01:05:21.500 It's Facebook.
01:05:22.040 They're collecting all of it.
01:05:23.740 And even though Zuckerberg has talked a big game about wanting threads to be this place for discourse and accurate information,
01:05:30.860 it has been up for less than a day, and already this is being called into question.
01:05:36.100 Because known harassers and misinformers and disinformers like libs of TikTok are already showing up on threads.
01:05:42.860 When Donald Trump Jr. joined, threads added a warning to his account, letting folks know that he is known for spreading misinformation, which he is.
01:05:50.960 When Donald Trump Jr. screenshotted that warning and complained, Metta's Andy Stone walked it back, saying the warning was just a mistake.
01:05:59.180 They didn't mean to apply it.
01:06:00.180 So it does kind of seem like the same moderation issues and concerns that already show up on Facebook might also be present on threads.
01:06:08.020 I would also just add that, like, I don't really even know how to put this, but there is definitely a cultural vibe of Instagram that makes me wonder if a product connected to Instagram will ever take off and be an actual replacement for Twitter.
01:06:27.620 You know, it's hard to explain, but if you use Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, you probably know exactly what I mean.
01:06:34.000 Think about the kind of person who becomes big on Instagram.
01:06:37.220 Now, think about the kind of person who becomes big on Twitter.
01:06:40.540 Those two groups of people find success for completely different behavior and things,
01:06:46.180 with completely different audiences.
01:06:48.020 The culture of Twitter is text-based.
01:06:49.780 So snarks, jokes, meme, general ennui, right?
01:06:54.960 Those are the things that perform well on Twitter.
01:06:58.040 Text-based snark, text-based insights, things like that.
01:07:01.960 The culture of Instagram is visual, right?
01:07:04.480 So it's looking a certain way, presenting a certain way.
01:07:07.440 I don't necessarily want to read written takes from the kind of people who really perform well on Instagram.
01:07:14.940 I don't mean that as a dig on them.
01:07:16.620 It's just that there are two different mediums that are very different, and they have very different audiences.
01:07:22.860 And so I feel like the kind of person who would find success on a visual medium and the kind of person who would find success on a text-based medium are very different.
01:07:33.560 And having Threads be connected to your Instagram account so that like the people who already have big followings on Instagram, people who are already big influencers on Instagram automatically will have big platforms on Threads as well just makes me think that as a text base.
01:07:50.680 I mean, you're shaking your head, but like if I have a million Instagram followers and you have five Instagram followers and Threads automatically pulls your followers from Instagram, I will start out on day one with a million followers on Threads.
01:08:03.920 You will start out on day one with five followers on Threads.
01:08:06.820 That's just how it works.
01:08:07.540 it's true but just because you've got a million followers uh if you're not creating the kind of
01:08:14.320 content that they think is going to give them the kind of engagement they want they will bury you
01:08:21.140 in a day and you're you know you might have a million followers but there's no doubt in my mind
01:08:27.360 that they they're you know they wouldn't dial you back to like a thousand impressions a day even if
01:08:34.500 posting a lot of content. Because as you described, it's not like a chronological timeline,
01:08:42.580 right? It's this algorithm that they are using. And that vibe difference that you described
01:08:49.920 between Twitter and Instagram, I'm sure that a lot of people have studied it. And I would be
01:08:55.700 really interested to hear from them. But I have to believe that the particular vibe that exists
01:09:01.960 on Instagram was very intentionally and deliberately curated by Meta.
01:09:11.760 And so, yeah, I think, you know, bringing all your followers is going to, you know,
01:09:18.080 it is an advantage to starting on a new network.
01:09:21.440 You know, when I started on Mastodon a while ago, that was like a major barrier.
01:09:26.780 I was starting at zero.
01:09:27.940 Not that I had that many followers, but for me, it was more like the people that I was
01:09:31.460 following, I had to go and like find them and find all new ones. But there it's a chronological
01:09:36.120 timeline. And, you know, with both Instagram and threads, that's not the case. It's the algorithm.
01:09:41.900 They're showing you what they want you to see. So Ed Zitrone has a piece that I think really
01:09:47.160 speaks to what you're talking about. And he actually argues that this might be kind of
01:09:51.840 marking the end of a certain era of the internet as we know it. It's kind of a long quote, but I
01:09:56.160 think it's so worth it. Hear me out. He writes, when Twitter and Instagram launched, people were
01:10:01.000 not primed for what a social network was. Users did not join with the intent of building followings
01:10:06.520 or content creation. Influencer was a term, but it was not a term that people instantly
01:10:11.840 gravitated toward from day one. Twitter was exciting because it felt raw, almost accidentally
01:10:17.140 honest. And the way that famous or notable people acted didn't feel like they were following a
01:10:21.980 content marketing calendar. Threads is built to attract people who are concerned about influence
01:10:26.900 versus any kind of authentic conversation, and it suffers greatly as a result.
01:10:31.740 Perhaps we're simply approaching the end of the honest internet,
01:10:34.360 where the magic of happenstance is being squeezed out as financial interests
01:10:38.380 find ways to dominate real human conversation.
01:10:41.860 Threads isn't built for you to talk to other people.
01:10:44.360 It's built to inject insepid content into your life
01:10:47.660 and interfere with as much of the human experience as possible.
01:10:51.220 Perhaps it's because Zuckerberg already saw how unprofitable Twitter is
01:10:54.540 and decided the only way to do this would be to make a significantly worse experience.
01:11:00.040 More fundamentally, Spreads isn't a social network.
01:11:02.980 It's a marketing channel for the least interesting people on earth.
01:11:06.260 It's exactly what you'd expect of a text-based Instagram,
01:11:09.760 a mediocre, algorithmic nightmare of content slop that barely resembles entertainment.
01:11:15.220 And I can't wait for it to fail.
01:11:17.120 So a little bit grim.
01:11:18.720 That speaks a little bit, I think, to what you were talking about,
01:11:21.460 about influencers and whether having a big platform on threads will correlate to engagement
01:11:29.260 and being successful there. I kind of agree with, even though I'm not on threads, I kind of agree
01:11:34.080 that we're thinking about it completely wrong. We're thinking about it in terms of an authentic
01:11:40.360 engagement platform. And I don't think that's what threads is. There is zero reason for optimism,
01:11:46.420 right like it's meta they are bad actors every single piece of it is going to be built around
01:11:54.900 selling ads uh i think they would readily admit that right like they're they're interested in
01:12:03.040 harvesting data and selling ads this new platform is a new vector for them to do that uh maybe it'll
01:12:11.680 interesting i don't know uh you know television is a vector for selling us ads and there's good
01:12:17.880 shows on there yeah and it's funny because um because you're not able to control your feed and
01:12:24.100 like what you're seeing it's a lot of brands and influencers and things like that uh giovanni
01:12:29.760 colin tiono at digital trends put it really well he said he posted this screenshot of all of these
01:12:34.860 different brands you know cracking their little brand specific jokes on threads there's netflix
01:12:40.760 saying, Threads, it's kind of like love is blind because everybody is all about that engagement,
01:12:45.720 engagement ring emoji. And I get it. It's like cringey and eye-rolly and all of that. But
01:12:52.140 he writes, it's truly pathetic that this is the endgame of social media, a powerful tool for
01:12:57.080 education and organization co-opted into a dead-eyed utopia for brands to post the most 0.99
01:13:02.920 saccharine shit imaginable and have it forced into your feed. Happy meal ass app. And I get 1.00
01:13:08.960 the energy that he is responding to right like that it's we there was a time where social media
01:13:17.120 and this this era of the internet represented endless possibilities of connection and power
01:13:23.360 building and organizing and engagement and i'm we're using it to get you know netflix's little
01:13:30.020 little brand jokes about love is blind and we're not even choosing to see that it's just being
01:13:35.380 surface to us because that's what Adam Mosseri and Mark Zuckerberg think that we want from the
01:13:41.540 internet. And it is, I mean, I don't want to sound like a downer, but it is a little sad to me that
01:13:47.480 these are the people who are architecting what our digital future looks like. This is what they
01:13:51.760 think that we want or, and that we should just be happy to get it. If we're like, oh, we don't like
01:13:56.220 that. They're like, oh, no, no, no, you're actually wrong. You actually don't, you're actually too
01:14:00.100 stupid to know what you like and don't like. Actually, I know what you like and don't like. 1.00
01:14:05.500 I know more what you like than you know. And I just hate that. And I also think that Ed's post
01:14:11.220 that I read earlier, you know, when Twitter first started, it was a platform with a little bit of
01:14:17.520 irreverence and a little bit of zaniness and humor and darkness. And it did feel new and exciting
01:14:24.820 back in the day. And it hasn't felt like that for a really long time. Mostly it just feels
01:14:28.760 exhausting. And I think that's one of the reasons why I don't necessarily see a future for a
01:14:39.000 Twitter clone that is connected to my Instagram, Facebook universe. This might be specific to me,
01:14:48.420 but folks can let me know what they think. I just think that my Instagram, Facebook universe is
01:14:54.860 too broad of a universe for me to then go put my takes out onto, right? Like my mom follows me on
01:15:01.700 Facebook. My high school English teacher follows me on Facebook, right? Like my high school friends
01:15:07.300 follow me on Facebook. Twitter is a much more niche platform. Less people use it and even less
01:15:14.220 people than that actually make content and post there. So it kind of feels a little bit safer
01:15:18.880 to put, like, whatever bizarre niche take I want out into the universe on Twitter.
01:15:26.660 The idea of, like, Emily, from my senior year math class,
01:15:30.800 reading my deep-dive tweets into the Oedipal complex in the movie Bo is Afraid,
01:15:36.640 it's a little much.
01:15:37.480 Like, I think there should be some division in the way that I...
01:15:40.360 There is some division for me in how I show up on Twitter
01:15:42.740 versus how I show up on Instagram.
01:15:44.640 I don't necessarily want those universes meshed together.
01:15:47.560 you know i think i said this last week is i kind of like having different apps with for like
01:15:54.240 different audiences and different groups of people that i communicate with and different types of
01:15:58.720 content that i want to look at something you said just before about what a sad end game for social
01:16:05.440 media and you know thinking about threads being essentially uh just a clone of twitter which i
01:16:13.620 think everyone agrees like that's exactly what it is twitter like you said really came to prominence
01:16:20.820 years ago in a different era twitter was different the internet was different we were different
01:16:26.720 and so cloning twitter now it's just like a radically different thing than what twitter was
01:16:37.480 And Twitter arguably hasn't been that for a while.
01:16:42.740 So it's, you know, if you clone the technology of a platform that was something that people really liked and valued a few years ago and maybe has fallen off in more recent times, you're probably going to end up with something that is similarly not what people are looking for in 2023.
01:17:02.420 Then again, 30 million people downloaded it.
01:17:04.220 What do I know?
01:17:04.920 But I don't know, I remain optimistic that we're going to do something new, right? Like we're not just going to all shift to some new platform that is a clone of the old platform that like something genuinely new and different and possibly decentralized is going to come along.
01:17:23.460 Maybe it's Spill, you know, maybe it's there are a couple of people who are like, I think all of the interesting new alternatives to social media platforms are all coming from marginalized creators.
01:17:38.320 There's Somewhere Good, which is an audio based, intimate audio based social networking platform.
01:17:44.320 There's Spill. Yeah, I don't want to make it seem like I'm like doom and gloom.
01:17:49.380 I will forever be an optimist. I think that when you get people who care about connection online
01:17:53.860 together, really important stuff can happen. Really groundbreaking stuff can happen. But we
01:17:59.300 actually need to be centering and empowering those voices and having some of these fucking 0.99
01:18:04.400 dipshits get out of the way who are just trying to make everything worse. Like, isn't life hard 0.99
01:18:11.440 enough? Do we have to make everything worse? So on Wednesday, Twitter threatened to sue Metta
01:18:18.300 because as you just said, Mike, it's basically, Threads is like basically a Twitter clone.
01:18:24.140 I don't even want to like get too much into this because I really hate this kind of Cola Wars,
01:18:30.500 Pepsi versus Coke framing. I don't like talking about this as a business story because the reality
01:18:36.680 is that we're talking about, as we just demonstrated, we're talking about our ability
01:18:40.580 to like connect with people, access information, and like functionally use our largest communications
01:18:47.920 platforms that are so connected to our ways of life, social engagement, democracy, politics.
01:18:53.700 So that's really what's at risk. So I just mentioned the lawsuit because it's part of a
01:18:57.960 story. I think talking about this from a perspective of like, ooh, what are these two
01:19:02.700 CEOs going to do? Are they going to cage fight, duke it out? I think it really lends credibility
01:19:08.220 into the way that both of these bad actors have been behaving, the way that they've been putting
01:19:13.300 all of us at risk. And it kind of adds credence to that. So I don't like that. But I will say
01:19:20.800 that in response to the Threads rollout and this lawsuit, Twitter's new CEO, Linda Yaccarino,
01:19:27.760 tweeted something that I thought was pretty rich. She tweeted, on Twitter, everyone's voice matters.
01:19:34.520 Whether you're here to watch history unfold, which you can't do, discover real-time information all
01:19:39.400 over the world, which is all inaccurate, share your opinions, or learn about others at Twitter,
01:19:44.860 you can be real unless your account is being impersonated. You built the Twitter community,
01:19:51.600 prayer hands emoji, clap emoji, and that's irreplaceable. That is your public square.
01:19:57.500 We're often imitated, but the Twitter community can never be duplicated. Now, I agree with her
01:20:03.480 in some parts, right? We, the people, we did build Twitter. We did build the community.
01:20:10.540 But here's why I think that sentiment is so rich coming from her. It's like when COVID started
01:20:14.980 and all the airlines were like, we're a family here at American Airlines. And you're like,
01:20:19.960 oh, were we a family when y'all charged me $40 for my suitcase? Were we a family when you bumped
01:20:24.980 me from my flight? No, we're not a family. So it's pretty rich for her to be talking about community
01:20:29.540 now that they see that there are other games in town, other alternatives for people to get
01:20:35.180 their online engagement, now it's about community. Since Elon Musk took over, Twitter has not given
01:20:41.740 a single crap about community. Anyone whose job it was to foster community at Twitter,
01:20:46.940 from Blackbirds to other identity-specific groups, were all let go. And Elon did so while making it
01:20:53.100 crystal clear that as far as he was concerned, the only job or role at Twitter that mattered
01:20:58.640 was engineering, which side note, he also sucks at managing because Twitter was broken all weekend.
01:21:04.040 So was Twitter a community when Elon blew up verifications and put users who actually built
01:21:10.080 the community at risk? Were you looking out for Twitter's community when you let hate mongers,
01:21:14.600 extremists, and transos back on? Maybe, but that is not a community that I would ever want to be
01:21:20.520 part of. And Linda is right. It is the people, especially marginalized people, who make Twitter
01:21:26.200 worth showing up to, that is a community that Elon has attacked and undermined and targeted.
01:21:31.920 The people who do that work of building the community on the platform, those are the people
01:21:35.860 that he has targeted again and again and again and put at risk. So we did build this community
01:21:41.220 on Twitter. And at every turn, Elon Musk treats us, the people who built that community, like
01:21:47.000 freeloaders who are behind on rent that we owe him simply for showing up. And so I say like,
01:21:53.720 very rich to be talking about how much you value community now where is that value when people
01:21:59.300 didn't want to give you eight dollars elon damn that sounds a little personal well it is i mean
01:22:05.800 i just don't like being told that my contribution if i'm not willing to personally shell over eight 0.56
01:22:13.040 dollars to elon musk my contribution as a community member of twitter but on the platform since since
01:22:18.580 the beginning, does it make a difference? But now when they're seeing there are other apps out there
01:22:23.980 that might be able to recreate what they're doing, whether they do it well or not is, you know,
01:22:29.360 remains to be seen. Now they want to talk about community. This is the first time that Elon Musk
01:22:34.040 has ever talked about community to me. Where is this coming from? Right. And so like, I just don't
01:22:39.780 appreciate the flim flam and I don't appreciate having him talk. I don't appreciate Twitter high
01:22:45.520 us talking out of both sides of their mouth and playing at all of our faces. Because if we're a
01:22:49.560 community, being a community is not just cashing my checks and treating me like garbage. Being a 0.95
01:22:54.800 community means actually representing me and actually advocating and supporting my interest
01:23:00.180 and my well-being, which I have not seen from Twitter in the last six months. So yeah, I guess
01:23:05.440 it is personal to answer your question. Yeah, I'm angry about it. And I guess we'll stop it there.
01:23:12.940 Fair enough.
01:23:13.860 Mike, thank you so much for being here.
01:23:18.000 As always, thanks for keeping me grounded.
01:23:20.980 Yeah, thanks for having me on.
01:23:23.300 This was a long Twitter app,
01:23:27.180 but maybe next week everything will just be cool on Twitter
01:23:31.840 and we can talk about other stuff.
01:23:33.620 Here's hoping.
01:23:35.120 Thanks so much for listening.
01:23:36.500 As always, to get more ad-free content and to support the show,
01:23:39.920 just go to patreon.com slash tangody.
01:23:42.280 And thanks so much for listening.
01:23:43.860 Transcription by CastingWords
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01:25:05.260 i survived nine months in captivity and i've spent my life exploring how other people survive
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