00:05:00.640But the other part of it was I found that people really did not like having this conversation.
00:05:09.040consumerism. It has its claws in us. And I noticed in some spaces that you and I were in together,
00:05:15.760like people could be as lefty and right on and righteous about every topic under the sun. But
00:05:24.520if I were like, hey guys, I think maybe we shouldn't be shopping at Forever 21 because
00:05:30.280I think they're exploiting people. It would be like you, you know, farted in the pool. Everyone
00:05:37.480start like throwing like tomatoes at you and get really mad and be super defensive. And I was like,
00:05:45.120oh, okay. Consumerism has us in like a death grip. And so I started to just notice that
00:05:53.440there was a lot of inconsistency within people's behavior in this conversation. Like,
00:06:00.080yeah, support all women, super feminist, right on women, but also like,
00:06:05.180let's not buy sweatshop clothing boo and so I kind of just was always in spaces where I would
00:06:12.840sort of like test the waters for the conversation and I kind of feel like I've been talking about
00:06:18.740this for like 10 years now I've been thinking about it for 10 years now and it's kind of like
00:06:24.360jumping into a jump rope like a double dutch jump rope like you're going like this you're waiting
00:06:29.340for the moment so you test the water and you're like nope they're not ready and then there just
00:06:33.660became a moment where it was like okay I think people are ready to have this conversation now
00:06:38.440and I don't know if it's a mixture of us realizing that like climate change is coming for us all and
00:06:46.180like these systems are aiding in it and no one's going to be safe or whether it was people actually
00:06:51.980starting to realize that like these systems aren't good for us all they're doing is creating
00:06:57.320billionaires and oppression. But it finally feels like folks have come around.
00:07:04.080From following you and other folks who create content about sustainability,
00:07:08.360people do have these very strong, sometimes pretty weird defensive reactions when you talk about
00:07:16.400what you talk about. I've seen people say, oh, this is really classist because some people can
00:07:22.260only afford to shop fast fashion, or this is really fat phobic because maybe this brand is
00:07:28.620the only size this person can find to fit them. Why do you think that is? And how do you have
00:07:34.480these conversations in a way where folks can actually hear and take in what you're saying
00:07:39.560without jumping to that defensive point? I just feel like I have been repeating the same thing
00:07:49.360for a hundred years. No, I'm just kidding. It is just really saying like the same thing. And
00:07:54.560one of the first things I realized that people were deeply hypocritical about is we're having
00:08:01.140a conversation about poverty, but like folks do not want to include the garment workers and the
00:08:06.980people that make the clothing in that conversation. That is deeply hypocritical. And that is tied to0.93
00:08:13.660a weird colonialist idea that we think that if somebody lives over there, they should be okay
00:08:20.040with being poor. That's, that's because you also hear it when people say things like, well, that's
00:08:26.000a good job in that country. And I always sort of push back a little and go, okay, well, do you want
00:08:31.860to do that job? And they're like, no. And then I'm like, okay, why not? And they're like, well,
00:08:37.760well well and then they start getting backed into a corner and super defensive but what i want people
00:08:44.140to do is like recognize that like they're playing a part in these colonialist ideas as we're all
00:08:50.600talking about like decolonize this and that you know what i mean like um there was a time period
00:08:56.540where everybody was sort of talking about colonialism and how it shows up today but the
00:09:01.760mere idea that you think someone in the global south wouldn't want to make the same nice wages
00:09:07.020we do for the same sort of work that we used to do in our country, that's a colonialist idea.
00:09:12.460The idea that you think that someone should be grateful for a crappy job in an unsafe factory
00:09:19.400with bad wages, that's a colonialist idea. And then at the end of this system, because it is
00:09:26.280a linear system, production, usage, end of life, we also have a colonialist idea that somebody in
00:09:34.720the global south wants our scraps because a lot of the clothing that we buy today isn't the same
00:09:41.680quality that it was 20 years ago because that's how you push billions of garments on your consumers
00:09:46.720by like really making sure that the quality is not great so people are constantly buying um but
00:09:54.920also people are buying for a lot more reasons than that but um you know we we buy 20 times
00:10:01.100more clothing than we bought in 1990. And that means that there's a lot more waste and a lot
00:10:08.820more stuff being donated. And because we're buying such large quantities of clothes,
00:10:15.060a lot of what is being donated ends up in the global South, usually in parts of Africa,
00:10:22.260being someone else's problem. So for instance, within the book Consumed, I write about
00:10:28.780Cantamante Market in Accra, Ghana, and they receive 15 million items of clothing every week
00:10:35.000from the global north. Now, obviously, this market is not going to be able to resell 15 million
00:10:42.380items, which means 60% of what arrives in Ghana is waste. And when it becomes waste,0.99
00:10:49.740it ends up everywhere it's not supposed to be. So the municipal dump has filled up
00:10:56.10010 years ahead of schedule uh the dump catches on fire because of all the clothing waste which
00:11:02.620also like a lot of that stuff we're putting on our body and you should see how it's not decomposing
00:11:09.160you know um it ends up on the beach the beach there is incredibly polluted from the clothing
00:11:15.880waste it ends up in neighborhoods and so what we've created is a system of waste colonialism0.91
00:11:22.340But we have tricked ourselves into saying that, like, oh, somebody in Africa is really going to be really happy with this T-shirt with the twisted seam that I don't want to wear anymore because I know it's not good.1.00
00:11:35.540But they're poor so they can have it.1.00
00:15:41.180Xi'an flew a handful of influencers to Guangzhou, China,
00:15:43.960to tour one of Xi'an's factories and to visit its innovation center.
00:15:48.360It's well-lit, clean, and it actually looks like a pretty okay place to work.
00:15:52.420The influencers speak to workers about rumors of their mistreatment,
00:15:56.280and the workers say, oh no, we are being well-paid and enjoy easy commutes.
00:16:00.580It all seems pretty rosy, much like that suspiciously cheap crop top may be a little too rosy.
00:16:07.300And that's because they were probably not actually talking to employees representative of the typical employee experience at Shein, nor were they in a typical representative factory.
00:16:18.220Garment experts spotted pretty quickly that the facility the influencers were touring couldn't possibly be where Shein makes the clothes they sell.
00:16:25.520But that didn't keep these influencers from making glowing, positive content about what they saw and Shein's practices.
00:16:32.140One influencer, Danny DMC, their videos were particularly rage-baity, and I'm not even totally sure why.
00:16:40.560Maybe it's the way Danny refers to themselves as, quote, an investigative journalist and an independent thinker who gets all the facts and doesn't fall for negative Western propaganda about She-An, like the rest of us sheep.
00:16:51.960Okay, Danny didn't really say that, but the gist was pretty clear.
00:16:55.500Though, in subsequent videos, where Danny walks back their partnership with She-An,0.77
00:17:00.580they say they were paid very well by She-An,
00:17:03.100and at other times they say no one is paying them to say these positive things about the company.
00:17:07.920There was just something about Danny's video that was just kind of smug, easy to hate,
00:23:35.260And I stopped because it just didn't make me feel very good.
00:23:39.320I quickly started feeling like if I wanted to make any real money doing it,
00:23:43.640I had to say yes to working with any brand that would have me, whether I wanted to or not.
00:23:48.600Because influencing is kind of like the new wanting to be a rock star or a professional baseball player.
00:23:53.980I looked it up, and study after study suggests that more and more kids say they want to be influencers when they grow up.
00:24:00.900So if it's a crowded space that supposedly everybody wants to be in,
00:24:04.900maybe that's why I felt like I just had to take whatever came to me.
00:24:08.440But something the Shein brand trip really shows is the consequences when influencers are not choosy and intentional about what brands they lend their platforms to.
00:24:18.080And maybe that's in part because there are just too many influencers.
00:24:21.580Now, don't get me wrong. Influencing is very real work, and I want folks to be paid for their labor.
00:24:28.400But the crowded space can create these conditions where influencers are not necessarily thinking critically about the corporations they're shilling for.
00:24:36.740Instead, they're just worried about booking that brand deal and getting that check.
00:24:41.000And in a world where all of our oppression is connected, that just doesn't sit right with me.
00:24:46.440You know, you really hit on something that I think is complicated.
00:24:50.140So I want to choose my words carefully.
00:24:52.180You know, this is also in part a conversation about influencers and the influencer economy, right?
00:24:58.340I very briefly tried my hand at being an influencer.
00:25:01.520And part of why that didn't work out was that you just, you end up feeling crappy because you end up feeling like you can't say no.
00:25:08.800You have to say yes, especially when you're just starting out or when you're like a black woman or a woman of color or like marginalized in some way, right?
00:25:15.800And so I know that influencing, it's an easy thing to like make fun of, but it is work.
00:25:22.740And I want influencers to be paid, but an influencer being paid.
00:25:27.340Yeah, you know it more than anybody. But an influencer being paid does not negate the harm that the company paying them is doing. Like, the influencer who made that Shein video was like, well, we were paid very well. And they flew us. It was really a good experience. And I was like, I don't think people are responding because they were worried that Shein wasn't paying their influencers well. It's about the human rights abuses. It's about the ethical responsibilities that this company is skirting.
00:25:55.080And so I wonder, how do we make sense of, like, wanting influencers to be paid for their labor, but also wanting them to do so in a way that is not contributing to harm?
00:26:09.500Because I felt like there was no way to square that circle, and I was like, influencing is not for me, because to make any real money, you basically have to chill for things that are not values aligned.
00:26:20.960which is like, didn't make any sense. And so I don't even really know what I'm asking, but
00:26:24.400how can, how can we square that circle? Well, I think, yeah, I, I, I get a little bit worried
00:26:34.680that too many people want to be influencers because people want to be famous regardless
00:26:40.160of what they do. And that's the issue. And then it sort of became like, oh, you can only have a
00:26:46.980platform if you like speak on you know certain topics or you have like what's your your niche
00:26:54.100issue that you care about and then I thought oh god let's get ready for some real like empty
00:26:59.520dialogue you know what I mean like everybody's got like a everyone's got a cause you know and
00:27:04.620it's just like a lot of people I'm like you can just admit you just want to be famous you don't
00:27:09.640have to be like oh yeah and I'm like you know I'm a mental health person or whatever mental health
00:27:25.040Everybody wants to have, like, a cause so that they can be like, I'm deep.
00:27:29.780And it's like, maybe we don't all need to have this because we're having a lot of shallow conversations now.
00:27:36.560But at the end of the day, I don't think the world needs as many influencers as we have.
00:27:42.240I don't think that it's really an occupation that like I read some survey and I don't remember
00:27:49.800where but it was like one out of seven school children who's like asked about what they want
00:27:56.460to be when they grow up says they want to be an influencer and I'm like no yeah you know I think
00:28:03.740this idea of wanting to be famous just for being famous is, it's quite weird, to be honest. For me,
00:28:12.720I've always seen platforms as a way to open doors to things that I've always wanted to do. So like,
00:28:19.580I have always wanted to write, but like, you know, I told my parents, oh, I want to write.
00:28:23.920And they were like, yeah, good luck with that. There's so many Black women writers out there
00:28:28.040that are being celebrated in our society. This was like, you know, 20 years ago. So I wasn't
00:28:32.620encouraged to go into this path. And so I kind of saw having a platform as a way of achieving
00:28:39.540the things that I wanted to do career wise. And I think we really have to question, like,
00:28:46.440who are we following and why? You know, like, I guess we shouldn't be that surprised that people
00:28:52.480want platforms just to be famous in a world where like, no one can stop talking about the Kardashians.
00:28:59.140You know, I think it's really indicative of our society. But at the end of the day, I just think maybe we just need fewer people wanting to like, go after this sort of work, because at the end of the day, we're propping up something that I don't necessarily think is great.
00:29:21.700Like, there can be a lot of great things achieved from online spaces. But if people, if everybody wants to have a cause and everybody claims to care about the same stuff, like, oh, I don't want to oppress women, then what are we doing in this conversation? You know, how did we get to this place?
00:29:41.060And I think we also need to understand that like, influencing is a fairly young occupation. It's been, what, around for like 20 years or so. So like my generation had the ability to shape this occupation and to something that could be great. And we've just found ourselves in the same capitalist hellscape where the corporations have everyone under their thumb.
00:30:06.260And so I really think that influencers need to think about like, what is it that we're
00:42:12.780but I will say the experience of reading your book was,
00:42:15.460there's a bright side to it, I guess is what I'm saying. Everything that you just said is
00:42:21.540correct and scary and seems really big. But the reality is that we can make small changes.
00:42:28.300We don't have to wait for corporations to be better. We can make small changes. In the pandemic,
00:42:34.600I've talked about this on the show, I got a little bit addicted to buying cheap crap I didn't need
00:42:40.400just for a boost because I was feeling bad. A lot of people did.
00:42:42.980Yeah. And I had to take a step back and be like, what am I doing here? Like the amount of boxes outside of my apartment was like embarrassing to me. And when I started really thinking about my consumption habits and how social media was part of it and really undoing and unpacking some of that, it really changed my relationship to my home because I didn't have my closets were not filled to the brim with crap I didn't need.
00:43:06.980my physical presentation because so much of those clothes were garbage. Like I found this tie-dye
00:43:15.520fucking two-piece sweatsuit that I bought on Amazon and I was like, why did I buy this? This0.99
00:43:21.560looks ridiculous and it looks ridiculous on me. When you stop consuming and then you actually0.98
00:43:27.600focus on acquiring things that you like, that feel good, that are designed, that are like
00:43:33.140made well. I, not the company made well, but made space well. Uh, like my dad gave me this leather
00:43:43.480jacket that he used to wear in the seventies that I've now been like oiling and taking very good
00:43:48.600care of. And it's like, I have a new sense of pride and love for the things that I, that I
00:43:53.460really value. And then when I put them on my body, I, I feel better. It's really, it's,
00:43:58.820This sounds hippy-dippy and all of that, and it sounds like it sounds, but it really has been transformative.
00:44:06.640The truth of the matter is I think we view slowing down our consumption cycles as like, oh, it's going to be so boring, and I'm going to hate it, and it's going to be terrible.
00:44:17.140And I can say my wardrobe is 400% better than it was when I was buying fast fashion,
00:44:23.680because I really think about the things I bring into my closet.
00:44:29.360Not only do I think about it, but getting away from fast fashion
00:44:32.940forces you to actually figure out your style, your personal style,
00:44:37.660because we all think that we're being freed by fast fashion.
00:44:42.120But if anything, you're just getting a ton of trends pushed at you.
00:44:46.000You think you have free will in this, but in actuality, the things that are being sold
00:44:50.280to you have been picked out for you by experts months in advance.
00:44:55.140So you're like, oh, look at me with this, like, my style's really developed, but really
00:45:00.100you look like a lot of other people in the global north who shopped at the same store.
00:45:05.520And so, you know, when you start to really not want to engage with this stuff anymore,
00:45:11.920you find that you really start to actually find what your style is you start investing in things
00:45:18.660you know because you're not shopping every month anymore so like I used to say I was that person
00:45:24.920in my 20s that would be like well I do like that brand it's great if you can afford it and like
00:45:30.760there were time periods where I was not making a lot of money and I was moving in and out of
00:45:37.440my parents' basement. And I would argue that I was probably buying a lot of fast fashion to like
00:45:42.300soothe those feelings of inadequacy that I had. Right. So I'm looking at like an ethical brand
00:45:49.200and sizing it up and talking about how I can't really afford that thing, but I'm literally
00:45:54.660handing $200 a month to like fast fashion companies and not even realizing I'm doing it
00:46:01.760literally, you know, and just not even quantifying what I'm doing. And then it turns out that like,
00:46:09.700actually, maybe I could have afforded that very nice dress. I just didn't need to buy
00:46:16.720five dresses from H&M last summer. Funny that, you know, and so when you really stop to like,
00:46:24.800you know be present but also just like get off of this trend cycle you find yourself really
00:46:32.580leaning into like the core and the essence of what it is that you love and then you know your
00:46:38.940your style doesn't change with you know you'll obviously there'll be some times where you'll
00:46:45.640experiment with this and that but like the core of what your style is and the essence of what
00:46:50.540your style is isn't going to change as fast as the system of micro trends so like for me if I find a
00:46:56.700dress that I love on eBay I'm still gonna love it three years from now because I love it which is
00:47:04.020why it's great because now I shop that way you know and I always I always have used eBay for
00:47:09.280buying clothes I just um didn't share it with my peers because it wasn't very cool until recently
00:47:15.080um but now I find that like there are brands I love to go back and buy things that I didn't have
00:47:24.320money for like years ago but like maybe like a luxury item that like I really really love but
00:47:30.860could never afford and then I go and find it on eBay and it's like you know 70% off of like the
00:47:38.240retail price you know what I mean so once you start to really like dive into your style and
00:47:44.300get away from trends, it can not only be super fulfilling, but you're going to find that like
00:47:50.220you have a wardrobe that brings you so much joy. And when you have that, you're not chasing the
00:47:56.040trends anyways. But additionally, I always say that fast fashion is kind of a bit like sugar.
00:48:03.620So in the US, we put sugar in everything, like everything. And I live in the UK now,
00:48:10.600they do not put sugar in everything and it is very noticeable when you first get here I crave
00:48:16.740sugar like I'm a sugar fiend and it's the last thing for me that I need to like tap down on like
00:48:22.180I barely drink I have a mostly vegetarian diet but sugar is my vice so when I get to the UK
00:48:29.160I'm always like craving the sugar like oh give it to me and then after like a few weeks
00:48:35.540sort of like tampers off. And then when I go back to the States, I might go out to like a restaurant
00:48:41.280that I really rate and get like a dessert that I used to love. And when I'm eating it, I'm like,
00:48:48.020was this always so sweet? You can really tell when you've been away from it. And fast fashion
00:48:55.760is the same, except I find myself saying, was this always so crap? You know, like when I first took0.97
00:49:03.160time and basically said like moving to the UK really helped me because I had no money and I
00:49:11.000had also had to like really lighten my possessions so I wasn't in a massive rush to like go and
00:49:16.880acquire new things and so I really took some time from all the stores I unsubscribed from all the
00:49:22.980email lists no apps yada yada yada and I would say the next time I went into an H&M after taking
00:49:30.500like six months to just really clear my head and start to get away from fast fashion, all I could
00:49:37.020think about was how everything was plastic. And the stores, they smell weird, smell, they smell
00:49:45.940weird. And that's because there are a bunch of things that they spray the clothing with in
00:49:50.940transit to keep it from wrinkling. So you start to notice things like that, when you take time
00:49:58.560away. With slow fashion, the quality, I just, it's incomparable. I do some like personal shopping
00:50:07.400and personal styling virtually through my Patreon. And one of the things that I always, I never get
00:50:14.500sick of is the person who gets their first like slow fashion purchase. And they're just like,
00:50:21.120the quality, they just can't keep, they just, they're like, this is unbelievable because we
00:50:27.200really haven't noticed like while being in the fast fashion cycle that things have gotten pretty
00:50:34.940bad but then when you compare it to something that's a lot better quality you're like oh we
00:50:42.640just think that like it's gonna be terrible because consumerism has trained us to believe
00:50:48.000that like this is how we participate in society this is how you show the world your personal
00:50:53.520style. This is how you, this is the hobby you do on your downtime. This is how you reward yourself
00:50:58.920when you're feeling bad. This is what you do when you need a new outfit for a job interview,
00:51:05.080which you absolutely don't need a new outfit for a job interview. That person's never met you
00:51:08.760before. They will not know if it's an old outfit, you know? So like we trick ourselves into thinking
00:51:14.460that consumerism is like our best friend, but in actuality, it's killing the planet and thus
00:51:20.740killing us. And we need to think about it differently, basically. When you think about
00:51:28.000what's on the horizon, it does seem like people are kind of catching up. Secondhand clothing is
00:51:36.560kind of having a moment. Thrifting is having a moment. People are having conversations about
00:51:41.120consumption. Are you hopeful that we will sort of get ourselves out of this? Do you see that
00:51:46.640happening? Well, I am hopeful, but not to get depressing, but all this is going to come to a
00:51:57.160screeching halt because Mother Nature is about to clamp down on us really hard. So what you need
00:52:03.580to understand with these systems is we're all over-consuming. The consumer, the brands are
00:52:08.300obviously over-producing, pushing us to over-consume. If we don't change this ship around,
00:52:15.440we won't have the raw materials for a lot of these brands to keep going but we can't keep going like
00:52:21.340this forever all of these systems right are playing such a crucial part on the natural
00:52:29.640resources that our lovely planet provides for us for free and these brands are taking way more than
00:52:36.100their fair share i'm kind of hopeful though that people start to see these systems for what it is
00:52:42.520before it comes to that. Because like I said, this is sort of like the last hurrah. And it
00:52:48.160seems like the fashion industry just thinks that it's just going to ride the car until the wheels
00:52:52.960fall off. But if the wheels fall off, things are going to look really, really bad. So people think
00:52:58.220that ethical fashion is expensive now. You just wait until cotton costs $100 a yard. You know
00:53:05.640what I mean? But if we keep depending on this system of overproduction and overconsumption
00:53:12.920somewhat pushed by influencers, like by all means, the companies are totally at fault.
00:53:18.460The billionaires are at fault. But the person who has a platform who thinks none of this has
00:53:23.120anything to do with them, and I'm just trying to get a paycheck, you're at fault too. Because if
00:53:28.160you have like the same following count as me on Instagram, and you're selling people something
00:53:33.020daily, you are selling thousands of products a year, hundreds and thousands of products a year
00:53:38.760and probably getting a really nice affiliate linking check. So you're also like richer than
00:53:43.320everyone else, but then also going, oh, I can't afford to change. This is how I make a living.
00:53:48.580No, maybe it is you that needs to change because the system won't go on forever. And then like,
00:53:54.860then what? We now have a system where like people truly can't afford clothing. I don't want to live
00:54:01.500like that. So I really hope that people wake up and realize that these corporations are harming
00:54:09.940our planet and these systems of consumption are hurting and harming us. And I don't think that
00:54:16.980this is an impossible thing for us to do. I think we really need to be honest with ourselves and
00:54:24.440look at where we are in this system and look at who we are in this system. If you're the person
00:54:31.320who really, really just needs that pair of work trousers from Primark, I am never going to show
00:54:38.200up and like slap your wallet out of your hand because I'm not a bad person. But that's not how
00:54:44.120Primark turns loads and loads of profit. They turn loads and loads of profit by people going
00:54:49.420on holes there. You know, so like realizing who you are in the system and what you can like afford
00:54:57.000to do honestly it's going to be a crucial part and like asking yourself do I even want to
00:55:03.200participate this way because I remember when I was buying fast fashion feeling really like
00:55:09.200I don't know a bit sort of like pushed to do it in a way where I wasn't comfortable like
00:55:17.760taking out my summer clothing from the year before and then being like oh all these dresses
00:55:23.940are really nice. They're still good. I don't know why I feel compelled to buy new dresses.
00:55:30.300So ask yourself, do you even like being in the system? And if you don't like, what are you going
00:55:34.280to do differently? But rest assured when people say that like, oh, it's not on the individual,
00:55:39.800it's on the corporation. The corporation does require you. It requires a lot of us buying into
00:55:46.320it. It requires people over consuming. And if you don't think in corporations don't feel threatened
00:55:52.500by like sustainability in many ways they do there's a reason why like every trash bag company
00:55:59.320is now sort of starting to do like secondhand resale because they see that us as citizens are
00:56:06.860actually caring about this stuff and they want a piece of the pie so we get to say that oh we care
00:56:13.180about sustainability and also like we can profit twice from like the same crap except some of that
00:56:19.860stuff doesn't hold up long enough for it to have two owners. But that's another story.0.78
00:56:24.760I do think that corporations realize that the writing is on the wall. And the more we become
00:56:31.460informed citizens, and the more we start to really take action and change how we interact with this
00:56:38.580system, the more we can actually change this system for the better. Okay, so what did you
00:56:44.560think of that Shein brand trip? And what are your thoughts on fast fashion retailers like Shein?
00:56:49.280You can let me know on email at hello at tangody.com, on my Instagram at BridgetMarieNDC, on Twitter at BridgetMarie, or you can always subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com slash tangody, because I kind of can't stop talking about it and I would love to hear your thoughts.
00:57:07.860Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangody.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangody.com.
00:57:17.120There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me, Bridget Todd.
00:57:19.880It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.
00:57:22.580Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.
00:57:24.640Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer.
00:57:27.260Michael Amato is our contributing producer.