There Are No Girls on the Internet - June 02, 2023


Elon Musk flirts with AOC impersonator, Surgeon General's Report on social media, AI-generated true crime on TikTok, and more! β€” NEWS ROUNDUP

Topics
Tech Won’t Save Us in the future with Paris Marx Sex workers know the future of the internet wβ§Έ Dr. Olivia Snow

Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 3 minutes

Words per minute

172.56

Word count

10,922

Sentence count

617

Harmful content

Misogyny

13

sentences flagged

Toxicity

19

sentences flagged

Hate speech

7

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
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00:00:39.100 welcome home.
00:00:40.700 Pro Society is a weekly podcast
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00:01:09.100 There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.
00:01:17.220 I'm Bridget Todd.
00:01:18.380 And this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.
00:01:22.440 I'm here with my producer, Mike.
00:01:23.920 Thanks for being here, Mike.
00:01:25.220 Thanks for having me back, Bridget.
00:01:26.600 And here's what you may have missed this week on the internet.
00:01:29.940 So in stuff I absolutely fucking hate news, TikTok is awash with AI-generated true crime
00:01:37.900 victim stories. 0.54
00:01:39.160 So if you've been on TikTok at all, you've probably seen this new subsection of true
00:01:42.660 crime content where very creepy AI-generated children who speak in this like weird robotic
00:01:49.740 baby voice about how they were tortured or murdered is flooding the platform.
00:01:54.420 They purport to show actual murder victims telling their stories.
00:01:58.860 Now, there are adult victims being depicted, including politicians and celebrities, but
00:02:03.520 the ones that feature children are by far more popular and plentiful.
00:02:08.920 These TikTok accounts claim to be honoring, in heavy scare quotes, the victims and their
00:02:15.160 stories of violence, but Rolling Stone reports that they often get pretty major details wrong,
00:02:19.960 which may even be an intentional attempt to get around TikTok's rules against AI-generated
00:02:25.040 deepfakes of famous people. Exoneree Amanda Knox, who we spoke to on There Are No Girls
00:02:29.900 on the Internet last year, who also has a new podcast about the history of true crime called
00:02:34.040 Blood Money, had a really interesting perspective that she shared on Blue Sky, that even though
00:02:39.520 this addition of AI is definitely creepy, this is nothing new. Amanda Knox writes,
00:02:44.840 This isn't a fresh hell. There's a precedent for this dating back over 400 years,
00:02:49.220 One of the earliest forms of true crime was the printed broadside poster.
00:02:53.380 These posters would tell stories of brutal murders, often murders of children.
00:02:57.300 And these stories would often be told in the ballad form,
00:03:00.120 a song written in the voice of either the condemned criminal or the murdered person.
00:03:04.400 Whoever authored these ballads would just make them all up.
00:03:07.020 They would invent the pleading words of the child in the moments before they were killed,
00:03:10.560 or they would convey the thoughts of the criminal as they confessed or acknowledged regret.
00:03:14.200 So these creepy AI-generated true crime deepfakes of children may not be a totally new phenomena, but the addition of AI to recreate these child victims definitely makes them much more creepy.
00:03:27.500 Like, to be able to tell an AI program to generate the likeness of a murdered child for views on social media is pretty weird, and I think it represents this AI presenting the possibility for ever more expanded, tech-facilitated ghoulishness.
00:03:41.340 yeah gross creepy uh you know amanda knox as usual makes a pretty good point that it's not
00:03:49.480 new that people have been using true crime and broadsides for you know hundreds of years ever
00:03:56.780 since the invention of the printing press but i guess one thing that is new here with ai is that
00:04:03.060 historically i think those like ghoulish tales were often told uh for some sort of political
00:04:09.760 purpose, either to, you know, vilify some savage enemy or heartless empire who committed
00:04:18.520 atrocities on local people to get the local people like riled up for some sort of political
00:04:23.840 end.
00:04:24.680 But here, maybe there's some sort of end.
00:04:28.580 Oh, I think that true crime is always political.
00:04:31.320 I think that you don't tell the story of something ghoulish happening to someone, especially
00:04:37.180 a child or a woman.
00:04:39.760 Without there being some kind of, whether it's implicit or explicit, political agenda.
00:04:45.840 We've seen time and time again where true crime and the stories of bad things happening to people and people's misfortune is used to strengthen and bolster specific legislation, police crackdowns, more policing, increased criminalization of people of color, increased surveillance of people of color and the poor.
00:05:05.940 I think that true crime stories are often political, even if they don't seem political on their face.
00:05:14.060 I think the fact that these videos, Rolling Stone reports that they get millions and millions and millions of views and are particularly more popular when they feature the stories of murdered children, that tells me right there that whether or not these videos are explicitly trying to make some sort of political or social argument, they absolutely do fuel political and social dynamics in our culture.
00:05:35.940 Yeah, it makes me curious who the perpetrators are in these stories.
00:05:40.400 You know, I think that would be a pretty interesting thing for somebody to look at to get at that question of what what is the political agenda behind this new phenomenon on TikTok?
00:05:52.480 Well, I mean, I don't even necessarily think that it's like when I say political, I don't necessarily feel that people are posting these because they're like, oh, this is going to get everybody riled up and they're going to support X, Y, Z legislation around policing.
00:06:05.940 I'm not saying that sometimes they absolutely can be.
00:06:08.300 We see that a lot when it comes to true crime content about trafficking, that that is then used to support specific legislation.
00:06:15.420 I'm not saying that that's what's going on here.
00:06:17.660 But I am saying that when people are consuming more and more and more content about grisly murders and torture of children, it is just that's not happening in a vacuum.
00:06:27.640 It's happening in a culture where we already have conversations about policing, about, you know, stranger danger, about, you know, public safety.
00:06:36.100 And so when I say that they're political, I mean that they feed into a current cultural conversation around those issues that, you know, they're not happening.
00:06:46.440 I think it's easy for people who are true crime fans to believe that they're consuming this content in a vacuum, standalone, like, oh, it's just entertainment.
00:06:54.220 I'm just enjoying it.
00:06:55.140 But in fact, it is not happening in a vacuum.
00:06:57.740 It is happening against the backdrop of already existing conversations about things like policing and public safety, which are inherently political.
00:07:05.480 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
00:07:06.660 You know, definitely one doesn't have to look very far to see ways in which creating a feeling of fear and unease and distrust among the population fits pretty squarely with a lot of political actors, social media efforts.
00:07:24.920 Yeah, social media, man.
00:07:26.420 It's a powerful thing that plays to our emotions and particularly kids, huh?
00:07:31.860 It sounds like you're setting me up for our next story, Mike.
00:07:34.520 So I'm going to go ahead and take that.
00:07:37.940 You know, I'm just trying to do my part over here.
00:07:40.020 Last week, U.S. Surgeon General Dr. Murthy issued an advisory warning about the impact
00:07:44.740 that social media is having on the mental health of young people.
00:07:47.920 It's a pretty long report, but the crux of it is summed up in this quote from Murthy.
00:07:52.020 We are in the middle of a national youth mental health crisis, and I am concerned that social
00:07:55.640 media is an important driver of that crisis, one that we must urgently address.
00:08:00.340 So I just want to pause here to emphasize what a big deal this is.
00:08:03.000 The Surgeon General's office doesn't issue these kind of reports all the time, and when
00:08:07.360 they do, they often have a big impact that can last for decades, right?
00:08:11.320 We probably all remember or know about the Surgeon General's report on smoking and health,
00:08:17.160 which really turned the tide on smoking in the US and set us up decades later after a lot of fights
00:08:26.080 to be in a place where we are now, where fewer Americans smoke now than they have for the past
00:08:31.180 hundred years. So it really sets the agenda for a whole generation of medical and public health
00:08:36.980 initiatives. And it didn't come out of a vacuum either. It was when it was announced from the
00:08:41.060 Surgeon General's office, there were supportive comments from leaders of some of the country's
00:08:47.100 largest medical and public health organizations, including the American Academy of Family
00:08:51.360 Physicians, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Medical Association, the American
00:08:55.980 Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, the American Public Health
00:09:00.580 Association, and the National Parent Teacher Association, right?
00:09:03.460 Like, those are all enormous institutions that have a huge footprint, a huge impact.
00:09:09.600 And so I just mentioned that here to just really underscore the point from the Surgeon General's report here that there's widespread consensus acknowledgement in the public health field that social media is causing a lot of harm to our young people and we need to do something about it ASAP.
00:09:26.120 So the report does say that social media can have benefits to young people and that more research is needed to really understand the impact.
00:09:32.500 So it is a little bit nuanced, like it's not all bad. But the main takeaway is that we need to urgently take action to create safe and healthy digital environments that minimize harm and safeguard children and adolescents' mental health and well-being during critical stages of development.
00:09:44.940 And that's kind of one of the main takeaways of the report is that basically young brains are still cooking and they don't handle social media very well, which like kind of sounds like an obvious point.
00:09:57.620 I always say, like, I'm so glad that I didn't have the social media climate that we have today with so many platforms that I, you know, when I was 13, God, I truly God only knows what I would have done and what I would be like if I had access to that.
00:10:10.860 But the report says that a highly sensitive period of brain development happens between the ages of 10 and 19, which coincides when 95 percent of 13 to 17 year olds and nearly 40 percent of 8 to 12 year olds are using social media.
00:10:24.860 The advisory notes that frequent use of social media platforms can impact brain development, affecting areas associated with emotional learning, impulse control and social behavior.
00:10:34.220 Murthy has previously said that he believes that even 13 year old is too early for children to be using social media.
00:10:39.840 So there's two things here worth pulling out of that, right? Like social media is particularly harmful for children because they are still developing their brains. Like you said, they're still cooking. They're not fully formed. And so it's particularly dangerous to them during this critical period.
00:10:55.280 And also, we have a long tradition in this country and society of protecting young people, right? Like there's general agreement that we should do more to protect young people than adults because adults, they're adults, they're grown, they can make choices for themselves. Children can by definition.
00:11:16.880 And so I just wanted to identify those two different reasons driving this call for more action.
00:11:25.240 So the report does say that social media can be particularly beneficial to marginalized youth.
00:11:30.540 It says, studies have shown that social media may support the mental health and well-being of lesbian, gay, bisexual, asexual, transgender, queer, intersex, and other youth by enabling peer connection, identity development, and management and social support.
00:11:42.840 This is also really important because I have seen a lot of reporting that suggests that so much of the research about the impacts of kids and social media tends to be done on white kids, right?
00:11:51.940 Like when the researchers are doing that research, they're not necessarily also doing research on all kids.
00:11:57.300 And that is particularly important because according to a study from the Youth Media and Wellbeing Research Lab, Black and Latino 5th through 9th graders adopt social media at a younger age than their white peers and because youth of color have such specific online experiences, right?
00:12:11.700 These experiences can include things like hate speech and racialized harassment and racialized language being used online.
00:12:19.040 And so if you're not researching and looking into the experiences of marginalized kids who are having such specific online experiences, I don't necessarily feel like you're getting a clear picture of the impact. 0.99
00:12:31.460 Yeah, totally agree. 0.99
00:12:32.420 You know, we in social science, we talk about intersectionality and the importance of focusing on not just different demographic groups, but intersections of them.
00:12:41.180 And absolutely, there's a lot of reason to think that kids from marginalized backgrounds who identify with specific marginalized identities would have a whole host of specific harms and specific benefits that they get from access to social media.
00:13:03.340 And we really do need more research to understand that. But also at the same time, we urgently need restrictions to protect them. Right. Like in this in the U.S. regulatory framework, we are reluctant to ever try to regulate anything until it is solidly, conclusively demonstrated beyond the shadow of a doubt through many lawsuits that like, yes, it is actually harmful.
00:13:33.340 And so we are actually able to pass some sort of regulation about it.
00:13:36.640 In other countries, and in Europe, it's not like that.
00:13:40.180 They're much more willing to acknowledge that something is being harmful and take action.
00:13:46.280 And I really hope that we can do that over here.
00:13:49.580 Well, the report calls for just that.
00:13:51.380 It calls for more research into the impacts of social media usage and for social media
00:13:55.440 companies themselves to be more transparent when it comes to sharing data with outside
00:13:59.340 experts.
00:14:00.260 There's also recommendations for lawmakers to develop stronger health and safety standards for social media products and introduce stricter data privacy controls, which plus, plus, plus, plus, plus, I am a huge proponent of, especially for young people, but also for adults.
00:14:12.000 Technology companies themselves, meanwhile, are urged to assess the risk their products might pose and attempt to minimize them.
00:14:17.520 The report also mentioned something that I find pretty important, and that is the role that parents can and should be playing.
00:14:23.340 The report says the onus of mitigating the potential harms on social media should not be placed solely on the shoulders of parents and caregivers or on children themselves.
00:14:32.240 So this is where I kind of have a lot to say.
00:14:35.840 The people who run social media platforms are making billions of dollars from harming our kids.
00:14:42.340 Parents and caregivers have been burdened so much, especially in the last few years, having to manage virtual learning, shifting workplace policies around remote work.
00:14:51.360 You can work from home, now you've got to come back to the office, a tax on schools, just to name a few.
00:14:56.640 Tech billionaires know that their technology harms kids.
00:15:00.040 Facebook is aware.
00:15:00.980 We learned that from Frances Haugen's Facebook papers.
00:15:04.060 Facebook cannot say, from their own internal reports, Facebook is aware that their product harms kids.
00:15:10.120 End of sentence, full stop.
00:15:12.020 So these tech billionaires know that their products harm kids, and they make billions of dollars from it, from that harm,
00:15:19.160 while doing nothing to meaningfully mitigate how kids are showing up to their platforms.
00:15:24.340 And then to turn around and then further burden parents to keep their kids away from these platforms is unacceptable to me.
00:15:31.400 And it also speaks to the really, like, extractive relationship that I talked about in the episode that we put out on Tuesday with Paris Marks,
00:15:38.980 where there's just an expectation that it is fine for tech billionaires to do harm to the public, including harm to our kids, if it makes them more money.
00:15:47.660 And it's clear that that extends to harm to some of our most vulnerable children.
00:15:53.180 We need to make it clear that our kids' well-being is not for sale.
00:15:56.480 We are not sacrificing the health, safety, and well-being of our children to help make Mark Zuckerberg more money.
00:16:02.900 And that's really what it comes down to.
00:16:04.380 These companies know what they're doing.
00:16:06.160 They know they are causing harm.
00:16:07.340 You know, I respect this report, but I feel like in places this report makes it seem like tech companies don't already know that their products cause harm, that young people are using them and that it's causing them a lot of harm.
00:16:20.620 They do know that. And so we need to start from that reality.
00:16:24.560 They know they're making billions of dollars of it and they're doing nothing to stop it.
00:16:28.300 And that's despicable.
00:16:29.880 And it's going to take some kind of either regulation or new framework for lawsuits or something to go after them.
00:16:36.140 But, you know, they're making a product that demonstrably harms kids. Right. There's not that many categories of product where you can get away with that. I think in the case of social media companies, it's a little bit complicated by free speech.
00:16:52.120 you know the first amendment and also section 230 which we've talked about on this podcast
00:16:55.880 uh and i wouldn't pretend it's not complicated but you just can't we can't continue with this
00:17:02.880 extremely powerful important product that increasingly people need to be on to interact
00:17:10.240 in society uh that also is just like harming people and all of the responsibility is placed
00:17:17.740 on the individuals for not just protecting themselves, but their family. It's nonsense
00:17:23.480 and it doesn't work and it's not working. Well, that's my thing is that parents already have to
00:17:28.560 do so much. You can't just create a harmful thing and then be like, oh, well, just another thing
00:17:34.100 that parents, it's up to them to keep this out of their kids' hands, even though it's everywhere,
00:17:37.960 even though that's basically impossible. That's not a reasonable standard for parents. That's
00:17:41.920 too big of a burden, especially when people are making money off of it. And so, you know,
00:17:46.980 So I'm not a parent myself, but I do have a lot of young people in my life.
00:17:51.000 I'm close to a lot of younger folks.
00:17:53.140 I often have said the thing that everybody before they have kids in the 20, the 2000 says,
00:18:01.000 it's like, when I have a child, my child will never look at a screen.
00:18:04.720 OK, it's going to be books and wooden toys and nothing else.
00:18:09.280 And in 2023, be for real.
00:18:11.680 If you are listening and you are keeping your kid away from screens and you are very
00:18:16.500 diligent about screen time, I applaud you. I can't tell you how many times I have smugly
00:18:22.640 told somebody that that is the kind of parent I intend to be if and when I have a child,
00:18:26.580 but it's not a realistic standard, right? And allowing your kids access to social...
00:18:33.200 Kids need to be online. They need to learn how to have safe online experiences. I think the
00:18:39.720 onus should be on social media companies to not have platforms be marketplaces for their pain
00:18:45.380 and instead be places where they can explore the internet safely
00:18:48.420 and learn how to come of digital age safely.
00:18:51.160 And yeah, I think it shouldn't just be up to parents
00:18:54.660 who are already burdened with so much
00:18:56.320 to meet this impossible standard
00:18:58.900 of just keeping their kids away from social media platforms.
00:19:01.680 This is not realistic.
00:19:03.540 Yeah, it's not realistic and it's not an either-or thing, right?
00:19:07.080 It's like a false dichotomy.
00:19:09.860 Parents always will ultimately have the ultimate responsibility
00:19:13.460 for protecting their kids but at the same time we should have some regulations in place that
00:19:22.500 prevent extremely harmful dangerous platforms from just being widely available and easily
00:19:32.480 accessible to this kids or if you think about other categories of products that we have special
00:19:37.520 laws to protect kids from tobacco, alcohol, probably some others that I should be able to
00:19:44.260 think of, but I can't. But like, we have laws designed to make those harmful products less
00:19:50.720 easily accessible to young people, because there is clear evidence that that is effective at
00:19:55.200 protecting them from it. Why can't we have that with social media? What's interesting is that
00:20:00.820 the Surgeon General says that 13 is too young to be on social media platforms. If you saw the
00:20:06.680 documentary, The Social Dilemma, which is one of my favorite documentaries, where it features
00:20:10.040 all of these people who make social media platforms, like engineers, talking about the
00:20:14.980 harm that they know that these platforms have been responsible for. The movie is great. It goes
00:20:19.320 into all these different ways that these platforms cause harm and get you addicted and all of that.
00:20:23.800 At the end, I think it might even be a post-credits scene, all of these people who,
00:20:29.400 I mean, I hate to say it, but ostensibly made money creating these things that they then go
00:20:32.640 on to be like, oh, they're very dangerous. Talk about the role that social media plays
00:20:36.580 in their household, none of them let their kids on social media. And these are people who build
00:20:41.540 social media platforms. That really told me something of like, these are the people who
00:20:45.520 built technology and the technology that they built, they don't let their kids have. They do
00:20:49.320 not allow in their homes or around their children. Yeah, it makes sense. If you're building harmful 0.71
00:20:54.200 stuff that you know harms tens of millions of young people, you probably need to sell yourself
00:21:02.900 a story about personal responsibility, to absolve yourself of the guilt of knowing that you are
00:21:10.560 pushing this product out into the world and actively trying to get more kids to use it,
00:21:16.140 even though it's going to hurt a lot of them. Yeah, it is dirty business. Our kids,
00:21:23.180 I mean, I say this all the time, our kids' experiences should not be for sale. We should
00:21:28.880 the dynamic where your children are hurt and harmed in real ways so that Mark Zuckerberg can
00:21:37.580 get richer, we need to reject that dynamic. I don't care if he goes bankrupt. Our kids'
00:21:44.040 experiences should not be used to line the pockets of tech billionaires. And I guess I'll just leave
00:21:50.100 it there. Let's take a quick break.
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00:22:46.320 When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.
00:22:52.120 I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.
00:22:58.680 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files.
00:23:02.280 I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, 0.96
00:23:07.720 shut up, don't say anything.
00:23:10.380 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. 0.98
00:23:14.900 I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.
00:23:19.360 I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.
00:23:26.440 They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:23:30.920 But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:23:34.360 They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:23:37.980 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:23:51.340 At our back.
00:23:52.320 Are there have there been any stories this past week about something positive happening in tech regulation?
00:24:01.380 I don't know if I would say positive, but there have been some tech regulation news.
00:24:06.780 Let's turn to New York City, where they have just passed a new law around AI and hiring.
00:24:12.600 So in all this talk around AI and jobs and how AI is going to impact all of our jobs,
00:24:16.880 it's clear there is need for some kind of legislation or regulation to regulate how AI impacts the workforce.
00:24:22.320 The New York Times reports that New York City just passed a law that requires companies using AI software and hiring to notify candidates that an automated system is being used.
00:24:31.360 It also requires companies to have independent auditors check the technology annually for bias.
00:24:36.400 Candidates can request and be told what data is being collected and analyzed about them, and companies can be fined for violations.
00:24:43.160 Labor experts actually say that this law in New York City could potentially be expanded nationwide.
00:24:48.600 California, New Jersey, New York, and Vermont, and D.C., hey, hey, my hometown, are all working on laws to regulate AI and hiring.
00:24:55.860 Now, this sounds like a really positive step in the right direction, but some critics argue that the law is too biased towards businesses and corporate interests and has been watered down to the point of not being effective.
00:25:07.300 What could have been a landmark law was watered down to lose effectiveness.
00:25:11.120 That's from Alexandra Givens, the president for the Center for Democracy and Technology, a policy and civil rights organization.
00:25:16.800 That's what she told the New York Times.
00:25:18.440 So you might be wondering, well, what's so wrong with this law?
00:25:20.720 It sounds pretty good.
00:25:21.860 This gets a little in the weeds, but here's how the New York Times breaks down her opposition to this law.
00:25:26.800 They write,
00:25:27.220 The law defines an automated employment decision tool as technology used to substantially assist or replace discretionary decision making.
00:25:35.040 The rule adopted by the city appears to interpret that phrasing narrowly so that AI software will require an audit only if it is the loan or primary factor in a hiring decision or if it is used to override a human.
00:25:48.800 All of this leaves out the main way that automated software is used with a human hiring manager invariably making the final choice.
00:25:55.020 The potential for AI-driven discrimination typically comes in the screening of hundreds of thousands of candidates down to a handful or in targeted online recruiting to generate a pool of candidates.
00:26:05.040 So basically what she is saying is that the definition of whether or not AI is being employed in an employment decision is so narrow that a company would very rarely ever need to notify a candidate or perform an audit under this law.
00:26:20.120 Basically, they're saying that like they are defining AI being used as an employment decision if it is the only thing making a decision or if it overrides a human decision.
00:26:31.380 In reality, that is not usually the case.
00:26:34.360 AI can be used to narrow down candidates, but generally it is there as a human involved in
00:26:39.520 the process. So in the more typical iteration of how things usually work with AI in hiring,
00:26:45.460 very few companies would need to change their behavior under this law because of that narrow
00:26:49.660 definition of AI in the screening process. She also objects to the fact that the law covers
00:26:54.920 screening candidates using AI for gender, race, and ethnicity, but not for disability or age,
00:27:00.960 which we know are big parts of employment discrimination as is.
00:27:04.620 So if this law does become a national template, as it very well might,
00:27:08.340 it might not be as robust as it should be to actually protect workers.
00:27:12.580 I really want to interpret this as a good start, though.
00:27:17.440 You know, she's definitely the expert and probably right about it being too narrow,
00:27:21.840 but like maybe there'll be some court case that interprets it a little more broadly.
00:27:27.120 you know, I appreciate that this law at least attempts to establish some boundaries on what
00:27:34.440 is acceptable to use AI for, especially in something as important as employment.
00:27:40.840 And so, I don't know, it feels nice that some legislators are at least trying.
00:27:45.700 And it seems like it would be hard for companies to argue that being transparent about the software
00:27:49.760 they use is somehow an unacceptable burden to their hiring. So hopefully this can be
00:27:55.720 either amended or built on to maybe expand that definition, add some teeth to it so that it does
00:28:03.160 become more accepted and expected even that throughout the hiring process, any sort of AI
00:28:10.920 that even has the potential to discriminate needs to be disclosed. At the very least,
00:28:20.040 it seems like asking to have it disclosed shouldn't be objected to.
00:28:24.140 People deserve transparency when they're engaging with technology like this. And I think that's probably one of my biggest concerns about this technology is that it's simply going to repeat and also make worse the existing biases that are already in our society.
00:28:40.620 And so I think we definitely need strong, clear, robust legislation to prevent that from happening.
00:28:45.720 So I am happy to see some legislation that it's not just a Wild West, but I want to make sure it's legislation that actually provides some meaningful and robust protection for all of us.
00:28:55.760 Have you got any stories for me about health tech, Bridget?
00:28:58.820 Let's talk about health tech, Mike.
00:29:00.740 So back in March, staffers at the National Eating Disorder Association were laid off just days after they voted to unionize.
00:29:08.060 Subsequently, the National Eating Disorders Association, or NEDA, announced they were shutting down their 20-year-old call-in helpline for folks dealing with disordered eating and food issues.
00:29:19.440 They replaced a handful of paid staffers and a large group of volunteers with a chatbot called Tessa.
00:29:26.020 Well, it turns out that Tessa did not do so great because rather than giving counseling to people calling in for help with their disordered eating, Tessa was found to be giving these people weight loss and diet advice.
00:29:37.460 A psychologist who specializes in eating disorders ran a test with Tessa where she fed it questions
00:29:42.080 that someone seeking help for disordered eating might ask.
00:29:44.900 She pretended to be somebody who had recently gained weight and subsequently hated their
00:29:48.240 body.
00:29:48.960 Tessa responded, quote, approach weight loss in a healthy and sustainable way.
00:29:53.200 When the psychologist followed up asking what that might look like, Tessa responded with
00:29:58.180 information about calorie deficits. 0.93
00:30:00.400 Tessa provided information like how to cut calories and how to avoid certain foods, which
00:30:04.880 is certainly not good advice to give somebody specifically engaging with this bot for help
00:30:09.920 with food issues and disordered eating.
00:30:12.520 So this is really interesting.
00:30:14.540 Wired reports that Tessa was not built using AI like chatbots like ChatGPT.
00:30:20.060 Instead, Tessa is programmed to deliver an interactive program called Body Positive,
00:30:25.300 a cognitive behavioral therapy-based tool meant to prevent, not treat, eating disorders,
00:30:30.460 says Ellen Fitzsimmons-Craft, a professor of psychiatry at Washington University School of
00:30:34.900 Medicine, who developed the program. But here's where it gets weird. Fitzsimmons-Craft says that
00:30:40.100 the weight loss advice given was not part of the program that her team worked to develop,
00:30:44.360 and she does not know how Tessa got it into her repertoire, which is pretty scary that this
00:30:50.500 non-AI chatbot went off script from the body positive program that it was programmed to
00:30:59.040 to respond with and started saying advice about how to lose weight and how to have a calorie
00:31:03.880 deficit. And the people who programmed it just have no idea how or why it was able to go off
00:31:10.700 script in that very particular way. Pretty scary, right? It is. And I have a lot of questions about
00:31:18.440 how that might have happened. You know, I looked into this a little bit and their study was
00:31:24.000 published in a reputable journal it had a good solid design so i really feel for the researcher
00:31:31.900 here for simmons craft because it by from everything i can tell you know she's like a
00:31:36.980 legitimate researcher who legitimately is like doing good science trying to help people and uh
00:31:42.680 you know it's not crazy to imagine that uh they're that the researchers who created this tool
00:31:51.820 would not be the same people who decided that at the programmatic level, it should be used by the
00:31:59.300 program to replace the human coaches. Maybe they were involved, maybe they weren't, I don't know.
00:32:06.420 And like maybe, yeah, I'm just like super curious about what it means that she says the program
00:32:14.680 did not have any of that content. Like where did it come from? Who put it there? You know,
00:32:20.660 These are questions I'm really interested in.
00:32:22.840 I would love to know more.
00:32:24.380 The robots are going rogue and they want us to lose weight.
00:32:27.260 I think that's clear.
00:32:29.000 That's what's going on here.
00:32:30.900 Maybe, but I feel like they'd want to fatten us up 0.70
00:32:33.820 to provide more calories for their robot machines.
00:32:37.600 Robots aren't going to be eating humans.
00:32:39.700 That's how it works. 0.85
00:32:40.600 They'll be digesting us for fuel, obviously.
00:32:44.660 Okay, so this is kind of an important context.
00:32:46.680 The NEDA says that they were not and are not planning on replacing humans with chatbots.
00:32:54.880 But it does sound like that in the midst of this staff shakeup after their unionization effort, it does sound like this chatbot was the only resource that they had to offer the public.
00:33:07.660 So they might say that they weren't intending to replace humans with this bot.
00:33:11.840 But subsequently, that's like kind of what happened, whether that was their intention or not.
00:33:16.680 yeah it's again hard to know what to make of the fact the idea that like they didn't intend to do
00:33:23.260 the thing that their organization did like where did that come from was was tessa calling the
00:33:28.640 shots at the board meeting it seems a little i don't know uh it just feels a little uh sketchy
00:33:36.320 to me honestly like yeah the unionization part though like they uh according to the npr article
00:33:41.960 that we read it is linked in the show notes here it's like an internal email at neda that points
00:33:49.240 to increased legal risk about crisis handling and mandatory reporting is one of the reasons for
00:33:54.440 laying off the coaches uh but then it just doesn't make sense that they would start to me at least
00:34:00.420 it doesn't make sense that they would start using a chatbot as a replacement as if that would
00:34:03.680 somehow be less risky it just seems odd you know and laying off workers within days of a vote to
00:34:11.440 unionize feels super gross. So I think it's important to sort of separate the two different
00:34:21.660 stories here, like the chat bot that worked as a prevention tool to help prevent people,
00:34:28.860 because that study that Fitzsimmons Craft authored demonstrates that it did really help people
00:34:35.160 with preventing eating disorders. But then it got used in this other context where it was actually
00:34:41.120 harming people that's interesting um and worth talking about and then also it seems like this
00:34:47.480 organization uh did not want to deal with the union and so just like replaced all their humans
00:34:52.880 as soon as they unionized which is pretty disappointing for a non-profit organization
00:34:58.140 that ostensibly is trying to help people yeah and i have to say like when i first chose this story
00:35:05.000 to include in the roundup for today's episode i was like this is a story about like what i can
00:35:11.700 never i can never say the word right schadenfreude i always say it wrong it's funny there's a uh one
00:35:16.660 of our patreon patrons has that as their their like patreon name and i dm'd them and i was like
00:35:23.460 i can never i have to like look it up every time schadenfreude i think that's how you say it when
00:35:27.360 i first heard this story i was like oh this is what they get for firing their unionizing humans
00:35:34.920 and trying to replace the unionizing humans with a robot, like, ha-ha, dunk on them.
00:35:40.760 But as I looked into it more, like, it's really easy to make fun of the NEDA here,
00:35:46.600 but it really does highlight what I think is a pretty serious issue,
00:35:49.760 that a lot of people need access to mental health services and support,
00:35:53.060 and that access is still out of reach for so many,
00:35:55.980 which is why an organization, you know, like NEDA would feel like they had to turn to chatbots
00:36:02.920 to sort of close that gap.
00:36:04.720 So it's easy to dunk on them here. But ultimately, that is a real problem that we do need to solve for. Whether or not technology like chatbots and AI can solve for it, I don't know. That's not something I know about. But it is a real problem. And Mike, I know that when you're not producing the show, this is something that you actually work on, right?
00:36:25.740 That's right. Yeah. When I'm not producing the show, I do research with a nonprofit that creates free digital tools to help support health behavior change and help people overcome addiction.
00:36:36.520 And so I do know a fair bit about this. This is an area where I'm actively doing research and actively working in a nonprofit where we run public programs that provide support for health behavior change over the Internet.
00:36:53.620 And we've been talking a lot about chatbots lately and what role they can or should have for providing digital health services.
00:37:01.140 Because as you mentioned, there is this huge unmet need for mental health services, as well as other kinds of behavioral health services like smoking cessation, diabetes management.
00:37:12.620 management. There's just physical exercise, healthy eating, so many health behaviors that
00:37:22.020 cause a lot of medical harm, medical costs, reduce good healthy years that people live on their
00:37:31.240 lives. There's this huge unmet need for it. And if we can use digital technology to meet that need
00:37:38.740 and connect people with resources that help them meet their health goals and adopt healthier
00:37:44.320 behaviors that they want to adopt. But for various reasons, often including industries that
00:37:51.720 aggressively market them to prevent them from achieving those healthier behaviors that they
00:37:55.460 want to achieve. And so if you can use digital technology to meet that need and help support
00:38:01.960 people to adopt these healthier behaviors that they're trying to adopt, that would be a huge win
00:38:07.960 for everyone, but there's this question of, of how to do it. Right. And with, uh, generative AI
00:38:15.040 chatbots in particular, we have no idea what kind of advice they might give to a person looking for
00:38:21.020 help. Uh, and so there's a risk, uh, as the national, what is it? The national eating
00:38:27.560 disorders association found out there's a risk that, uh, somebody who is in crisis, uh, or who
00:38:35.240 is like really experiencing a problem might ask for help and receive advice that actually
00:38:39.480 turns out to be harmful for them.
00:38:41.240 And that's, you know, as somebody who designs health interventions, that is terrifying.
00:38:46.900 You know, the risk is especially high for people in crisis, you know, for example, people
00:38:51.800 who are suicidal or intend to harm others because they're more vulnerable.
00:38:56.940 And so we have a greater obligation to protect those people who are the most vulnerable.
00:39:03.540 Um, you know, and I guess another related thing is that generally in public health, we have more priority to not causing harm compared to, uh, helping people, right? Like everyone is probably familiar with the trolley problem. Um, and again, it's, it's especially the case when people are at risk of being harmed, uh, who are already vulnerable.
00:39:27.020 We really want to protect them and make sure that whatever treatment we're giving to try to help is not causing more or more harm.
00:39:35.600 So that unknown factor about generative AI and chatbots, I think should give a lot of people in positions to provide them to the public pause about using those chatbots to deliver mental health support in particular.
00:39:50.640 You know, there is a lot of potential there. As the researcher we mentioned demonstrated, you know, her program, TESA, really did help some people. So there's a lot of potential. But we creators need to be to carefully protect against adverse outcomes and risks to users, especially among the most vulnerable.
00:40:11.340 And so it sounds like the version of Tesla that was implemented on their website didn't do that.
00:40:17.480 And so I think it's good that the service has been taken down until it can be changed or in whatever way is needed, that it can then be demonstrated to be safe, to be made available to the public again.
00:40:30.520 You know who else I think might need to be taken down until it can be demonstrated that they are safe for the public?
00:40:37.100 Elon Musk. I'll tell you why after this quick break.
00:40:41.340 More after a quick break.
00:41:11.340 streaming music from spotify and pandora and as the number one podcaster iheart's twice as large
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00:41:32.560 started that's 844-844-iheart when i was 14 years old i was kidnapped and held captive for nine
00:41:40.540 months i survived and i've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed
00:41:46.920 them i'm elizabeth smart and these are the survivor files i just remember this low taunting
00:41:54.480 voice next to my ear saying shut up don't say anything every week i'm with survivors who live
00:42:02.340 through the unthinkable i knew if he woke up without a doubt he was going to hurt me i started
00:42:09.540 feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed and i just started screaming they are abducted
00:42:17.360 stalked controlled and nearly silenced but these aren't stories about what's taken from them
00:42:23.220 they're stories about what it takes to make it out alive listen to the survivor files with
00:42:29.240 elizabeth smart on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts
00:42:39.540 Let's get right back into it.
00:42:44.560 Let's talk about Twitter.
00:42:46.540 It might be a while before we can demonstrate that he is not a danger to the public.
00:42:53.980 Agreed. 0.64
00:42:54.620 Okay, so this is a, I mean, I'm going to try to rein it in because this story makes me so fucking mad. 0.66
00:43:00.680 Okay.
00:43:01.140 Whew. Over the weekend, a verified parody account on Twitter that looks an awful lot like the real Twitter account for Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez claimed to have a crush on Elon Musk.
00:43:14.220 Elon Musk replied with a fire emoji. Of course, it was not the real AOC. It was a parody, heavy scare quotes, account.
00:43:23.080 The account has been around since 2018, but it was permanently suspended in 2019 under Jack Dorsey, the former Twitter CEO's leadership, for misleading parody content.
00:43:33.240 I should say here that, like, this is a real problem online where there are accounts that just say off-the-wall stuff and they say, oh, I'm parody.
00:43:43.040 But it's not really a joke.
00:43:45.480 It's hard to explain, but you definitely have seen them.
00:43:47.900 You know them when you see them where they're able to hide behind parody when you know that it's not parody, right?
00:43:54.340 Like, AOC saying that she has a crush on Elon Musk, that's not parody.
00:43:59.320 That's something else.
00:44:00.160 So that's neither here nor there.
00:44:01.120 So this Twitter account had been permanently suspended by Twitter back in 2019.
00:44:07.140 But Musk reinstated it when he brought back a bunch of banned accounts.
00:44:10.600 And because of the way that Musk's verification system works, which is basically pay to play, if you pay the $8 to get verified, it boosts your content in search and on the feed.
00:44:20.860 It actually boosts the fake account because it is verified.
00:44:24.620 So currently, and I tried this right before we started recording, when you search AOC on Twitter, the fake AOC is ranked first in search results above the actual authentic AOC's official account because it's verified.
00:44:39.400 So Musk is boosting this fake account both because of the way that Twitter Blue works, but he is also personally boosting this account because he is engaging with it from his own individual Twitter account.
00:44:51.620 It's so disgusting. He's such a pathetic creep. He knows it's a fake account. He unbanned it 0.99
00:44:57.360 anyway. And now he's engaging with it and boosting with it. Just ugh.
00:45:04.160 Ugh, it's right. So the real AOC tweeted, FYI, there's a fake account on here impersonating me
00:45:09.420 and going viral. The Twitter CEO has engaged it, boosting visibility. It is releasing false
00:45:14.360 policy statements and gaining spread. I am assessing with my team how to move forward.
00:45:18.600 In the meantime, be careful what you see.
00:45:20.840 Soon after the real AOC tweeted that, the fake account tweeted the exact same thing
00:45:26.080 word for word.
00:45:27.300 Now, parody accounts on Twitter are required to spell out that they're parody accounts.
00:45:31.680 But as of today, when you look at the fake AOC accounts tweets on mobile, the word parody
00:45:37.360 is cut off.
00:45:38.360 So there's no quick visual way to differentiate that this is not the real AOC if a user was
00:45:42.980 just encountering these fake AOC tweets in their feed on mobile, right?
00:45:47.640 You would have to click all the way into the profile to see that it is a parody.
00:45:51.660 There is no visual marker. 0.51
00:45:53.640 It has her image.
00:45:54.520 It is verified.
00:45:55.900 If you saw this quickly on mobile, you would think it was the real AOC.
00:45:58.980 And particularly the platforms like Twitter move so quickly and they encourage you to
00:46:03.560 move so quickly that people aren't, I don't think people are going to be checking to see
00:46:06.920 if this is the real account or not.
00:46:08.760 If only there was some visual marker that people could use to quickly see which accounts
00:46:15.540 are like actually the people who say they are and which ones aren't uh if only such a system like
00:46:22.180 that existed uh but maybe it's just impossible and i'm dreaming oh my god i mean i we did a
00:46:28.940 whole episode about verification for my project with cool zone media called internet hate machine
00:46:33.960 about how it's it's not just like a vanity thing like it really matters that people are who they
00:46:40.320 say they are. Just, I think, two weeks ago here in D.C., there was a tweet, two tweets from a
00:46:46.820 verified account that said that there was a massive explosion in D.C. by the Pentagon. And it
00:46:52.160 had a very compelling image that looked like a lot of smoke and flames in the Pentagon. And
00:46:57.980 it actually caused an IRL traffic disruption here in D.C. because people thought, like,
00:47:03.680 oh, don't drive by the Pentagon. And it was fake. It was a verified account spreading
00:47:08.940 inaccurate information that looked real and so i i really truly worry what happens when people at
00:47:19.480 scale are buying verifications and using it to disrupt using it to confuse using it to cause
00:47:25.640 chaos and i think that fake tweet about the fire at the pentagon which was just like a fake made
00:47:32.140 up thing i think it also like tanked the stock market for a little while and like cost a bunch
00:47:37.900 of people a ton of money? Yeah, it makes me sad to say, but I always say this, when rich people
00:47:44.300 and corporations have their bottom lines impacted, I think that's the, I mean, this probably sounds
00:47:49.160 so pessimistic. I think that is one of the last bastions of doing something that we have in this
00:47:55.540 country. If regular people are harmed, who cares? If somebody, if a corporation or the market is
00:48:02.220 impacted, then I think people will pay attention. It makes me sad to say, but I do firmly believe
00:48:06.980 that that is, like, the last lever that anybody with power cares about in this country.
00:48:12.140 Yeah, just ask Elizabeth Holmes.
00:48:13.840 Yep.
00:48:14.440 I was just thinking about her, my girl.
00:48:16.320 Also, by the way, it's Liz now.
00:48:17.660 She rebranded.
00:48:18.280 I don't know if you saw.
00:48:19.240 I did not.
00:48:19.940 It's Liz?
00:48:20.880 It's Liz now.
00:48:22.260 Also, fun fact, she, I am so, like, I swear that I did not plan this. 1.00
00:48:27.180 I wanted to find a way to work in this tidbit that Elizabeth Holmes is going to be in the same jail as Jen Shaw from Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. 0.84
00:48:36.260 No. 1.00
00:48:36.980 Yes. Yes. Okay. So just, that's information for y'all. If you, this is a real overlap of shit that I care about. Housewives, like Bravo Housewives, and tech scams.
00:48:50.700 Yeah. Wow. I wonder if they're going to be buds.
00:48:54.400 You know, they, there is no way that Jen Shaw is not already scheming how to get this woman on her team. I'll always say that. I know, I know my, I know my Jen Shaw. She's already scheming to get this woman on her team. Trust. 0.99
00:49:06.980 Boy, Liz better keep an eye out. 0.57
00:49:10.180 Seriously. 1.00
00:49:11.720 Okay, so back to this parody account.
00:49:14.800 NBC News dug into this account, and they found that according to the Social Blade, a social media analytics tracker,
00:49:20.480 the AOC parody account had 85,000 followers back in May 2019, the same month it was suspended.
00:49:26.960 After the account was restored in May of 2023, it immediately lost 16,000 followers.
00:49:32.340 Then, the account shot back up to over 80,000 followers on May 29th after Musk replied to it.
00:49:39.440 On May 30th, the day that AOC responded to the account, it gained over 100,000 followers.
00:49:44.240 It has continued to climb.
00:49:45.760 Today, let's just check and see how many it has as of right now.
00:49:50.180 I meant to do this before we taped, but I forgot.
00:49:52.720 That's okay.
00:49:53.300 We can do it in real time for the listeners.
00:49:56.120 Today, it has 391.1k followers.
00:50:01.640 That is a lot of followers.
00:50:03.640 That's a lot of followers.
00:50:05.280 That's more than like a 400% increase from before Musk replied to it.
00:50:10.460 So obviously, Musk replying to it and engaging with it has helped it grow in followers,
00:50:16.340 helped this account that is not accurate, is confusing, and is not easily and clearly
00:50:21.040 distinguishable as parody on mobile.
00:50:23.220 He's clearly helped for it to grow.
00:50:25.140 What's even wilder is that NBC found that the fake AOC account was run, at least initially,
00:50:29.860 by a GOP operant.
00:50:31.640 It was first started by Michael Morrison, whose Twitter profile indicates him as a member of the New York Young Republicans Club.
00:50:37.060 Morrison posted about the suspensions on his account on the conservative social media platform Gabbed, where he also posted from a parody of AOC's official account between April 2019 and July of 2019.
00:50:48.160 The posts shared on Gabbed were more sexually explicit, and the account re-shared posts from other users that contained racist slurs. 0.99
00:50:55.740 Surprise, surprise, this guy sucks. 1.00
00:50:58.320 Yeah, these people are such troglodytes. Like, of course, it's sexually explicit. Like, let's remember that the original tweet that Musk replied to with a fire emoji was the parody account pretending that AOC liked him and had a crush on him. 1.00
00:51:17.160 I want to come back to that. I should mention that NBC says that they reached out to Morrison and he said that he no longer runs this AOC parody Twitter account and that he thinks it might be run by a team of people. Take that for what it's worth. That's what he told them. I don't know if that's true or not. Who knows?
00:51:34.720 So I have talked a bunch about verification and impersonation on Twitter.
00:51:38.840 We did a whole episode of Internet Hate Machine about it.
00:51:41.340 You know, having a blue checkmark is not just a vanity thing.
00:51:44.780 It really did start as a way to help users identify people are who they say they are.
00:51:50.920 And it's been a way to provide security for folks who are at the risk of being impersonated online. 0.64
00:51:55.380 We already know that impersonating Black women and women of color on Twitter can cause chaos.
00:52:01.140 us. And it's a thing that bad actors do intentionally to do that. So it's not surprising 0.82
00:52:06.300 to me that AOC is being targeted. Also, I should say that the obvious thing, Mike, that you brought
00:52:12.620 up that we kind of can't not mention is that this parody account is targeting a woman of color,
00:52:18.680 elected official. And they're not just using this account to like poke fun at her political or
00:52:23.580 policy decisions. It is making her say things like she has a crush on Elon Musk. And the real
00:52:29.840 Elon Musk pathetically replies. Let's be super clear. This is so obviously about using a woman
00:52:36.840 of color's gender, race, age, and sexuality to belittle her because she is a public figure. 0.99
00:52:42.620 It is about weaponizing her identity. And I think part of it is that AOC is an attractive young 1.00
00:52:48.720 woman. And so there is this thing when you are an attractive young woman who is also in public
00:52:56.000 that elicits this really gross behavior, and it's all kind of linked, right?
00:52:59.860 Like hating her, being obsessed with her, being titillated by her, putting her down. 1.00
00:53:05.080 It's all sides of the same fucked up coin. 0.99
00:53:08.000 And I have said this at 1 million times, but it's also not just about AOC. 0.98
00:53:13.240 It is meant to send a message to other young women who would be potential civic leaders
00:53:18.480 or might run for office or be activists or be public in their communities
00:53:22.040 That this is what you will have to deal with if you are a young woman, a woman of color, or a black woman who speaks up and wants to represent your community publicly.
00:53:31.100 This is what you will have to endure.
00:53:32.900 The harassment will be in plain sight, and it will be endorsed and cheered on and enabled by the powers that be, in this case, Elon Musk.
00:53:39.960 So if you run for office or become an activist or become somebody who uses a public profile to advocate for things that you care about and help your community, this is what you have to deal with.
00:53:48.700 It is systemic.
00:53:49.800 It is anti-democratic. 0.99
00:53:50.780 It stifles free speech because think of all the women who will not speak up, who will not run for office, who will not serve their communities because they don't want to have to deal with this kind of crap. 0.99
00:53:59.860 And I don't blame them. 0.98
00:54:01.380 Cheap, crass, quote, jokes like this should not be the cost of serving as an elected official.
00:54:07.660 But if you're a young woman, especially a woman of color or a young queer person, a young trans person, it absolutely is. 0.98
00:54:14.160 And Elon Musk obviously does not give a shit about his responsibility to make Twitter a place where this is not commonplace. 0.97
00:54:21.700 In fact, he's so pathetic that it's probably like feeding his ego the chance to be able to pretend like even for a second that there is a reality where somebody like AOC would even ever potentially think about him, potentially have a chance with him. 0.98
00:54:36.420 And that is the real joke here. The real joke is on Elon Musk, because he's clearly enjoying having his ego stroked by even the idea that a pretend AOC would ever give him the time of day, which would never happen. 0.93
00:54:49.660 So it's not all bad. I do have a little positive news.
00:54:52.900 What? On this show?
00:54:54.820 A little positive news for you. And that is Apple has just unveiled their new iPhone accessibility features, which I'm very excited about.
00:55:03.080 Okay, so May 18th was Global Accessibility Awareness Day, and to celebrate, Apple unveiled a suite of new features to improve cognitive, vision, and speech accessibility.
00:55:13.100 We should see these features rolled out on iPhone, iPad, and Mac later this year.
00:55:18.240 Apple created these tools based on feedback from a broad subsection of users with disabilities.
00:55:22.760 Let's take a look at what is to come.
00:55:24.180 So for users who are blind or have low vision, they have detection mode and magnifier, which now offers point and speak, which identifies text that users point toward and reads it out loud to help them interact with physical objects, such as household appliances, which I think is great.
00:55:39.580 And they also have a much more simplified grid home screen.
00:55:43.120 So if you're somebody who doesn't necessarily need a half a dozen apps on your home screen, you just want to be able to, like, push one button and make a phone call.
00:55:50.700 It's a lot simpler.
00:55:51.420 So I love this because, you know, I'm sure I've talked about this on the show before, but accessibility tools don't just benefit people with disabilities.
00:55:59.320 They benefit everybody because we're all better served when more folks can show up online and in technology.
00:56:04.740 My parents are both huge iPhone people.
00:56:08.040 They love their iPhone.
00:56:09.260 They always get the, like, newest one.
00:56:11.300 My dad is disabled, and after he had a stroke, he had to kind of relearn how to do a lot of things.
00:56:17.460 Like, he was in physical therapy to relearn how to walk.
00:56:19.560 He had to relearn how to drive.
00:56:20.580 And one of the most complicated things or difficult thing for him to relearn was technology. I don't know why it was so difficult, but it was a real challenge. There's so much technology right now, and it can be so complicated.
00:56:34.960 And I think things like the simplified phone grid home screen will be a real hit with him because he's not somebody who is like, you know, doing a million things on his phone.
00:56:47.560 He wants to text and he wants to make phone calls.
00:56:50.180 And so having it be a lot more simplified, I think, will be really good.
00:56:53.800 Technology has really helped both of my parents just be able to show up more.
00:56:59.100 You know, my dad's Apple Watch, it monitors his vital signs.
00:57:02.100 My mom FaceTimes her niece every single day, sometimes multiple times a day.
00:57:07.200 I'll say it is not without friction in our household because my mom loves FaceTime and no longer uses just regular good old-fashioned phone calls.
00:57:17.960 And so every time that we speak, she expects it to be FaceTime.
00:57:22.360 And I don't really like FaceTime.
00:57:24.100 I don't enjoy being on FaceTime.
00:57:25.780 It's not how I want to have every conversation.
00:57:28.600 So it's not without friction, but it's been great for them.
00:57:33.020 And I also think it's like, it's just a good, I like tech being designed with accessibility at its core because it is very easy to think of technology as like just cutting edge stuff for young people.
00:57:45.300 But that can be so limiting, you know, when tech should be designed with slash for people who need it.
00:57:52.640 And I think it's really cool to see technology being made that centers older folks and folks with accessibility needs.
00:57:58.380 I think that's really, really cool. And I think it really reminds us like who tech is supposed to serve and who should be centered in the technology that we use every day. So I love this. I think it's great.
00:58:09.000 This is really nice. Thank you for bringing this to us. Yeah, this is such a nice story. Thank you for sharing it. It's so nice to see technology doing what it does when it's at its best, which is helping people who either have a disability or some sort of need meet that need and be able to use it as a tool to help them do the things that they want to do.
00:58:36.020 And that's about as good as it gets with tech.
00:58:40.100 And added bonus, with a simplified iPhone screen, maybe my parents will be calling me every five seconds asking me to do things on their phone.
00:58:47.880 So way to foster a sense of independence for my parents specifically.
00:58:52.580 Thank you, Apple.
00:58:55.260 Yeah, well, that's what it's all about.
00:58:57.380 That's why you've been doing this show, to get us here.
00:59:00.480 So your parents stop asking you for tech support.
00:59:02.820 Yes, we did it.
00:59:03.620 Listen, I don't know if you have a similar situation, but when you visit your parents, it's like you'll have the dinner or you'll have the drink, whatever, and then there's like a lull in the conversation and tech support time starts where it's just like, oh, I've got this problem with my computer or like, oh, the internet is being weird.
00:59:20.740 I need you to fix it.
00:59:21.840 What's our Wi-Fi password?
00:59:23.840 XC534, beep, beep, five, four, beep, beep.
00:59:26.660 It's like, make it something you can remember and say.
00:59:30.680 Oh, my God.
00:59:31.260 And with my parents, we have really established some good boundaries around my providing tech support.
00:59:42.060 It took us a while to get here.
00:59:44.000 It was a bumpy road.
00:59:45.600 But, yeah, I empathize.
00:59:47.580 And so maybe Apple will solve all those problems for you and your parents.
00:59:50.620 Let that be a lesson to you, listeners.
00:59:52.480 If you are struggling with parents that need a lot of tech support, it gets better.
00:59:56.980 yeah all you need to do is create a podcast about inclusive technology and four seasons in
01:00:05.180 apple will release a feature that helps your parents you know it's an easy it's not easy but
01:00:12.660 you know it's it's it's a it's a template uh yeah thanks so yeah thanks for having me here
01:00:18.020 on the last ever episode of there are no girls on the internet you can pack it up and go home
01:00:22.220 Stop it, stop it.
01:00:24.080 All right, well, thanks for being here, Mike,
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