There Are No Girls on the Internet - Sex workers know the future of the internet w⧸ Dr. Olivia Snow

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00:00:34.940 I survived nine months in captivity,

00:00:38.460 and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:00:43.680 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files.

00:00:47.300 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable,

00:00:51.020 abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

00:00:54.640 These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:00:58.680 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:01:06.780 If you want to support There Are No Girls on the Internet, please check out our Patreon.

00:01:10.780 There, you can get ad-free bonus content.

00:01:13.560 Just go to patreon.com slash tangodi.

00:01:15.780 And thanks so much.

00:01:17.160 As someone who thinks about the intersection of gender, sex, and technology, where do you think we are headed? 0.91

00:01:25.060 To hell.

00:01:30.720 There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

00:01:38.820 I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

00:01:44.400 People who engage in sex work face hostility online. 0.94

00:01:47.780 But they're also the ones who remain at the forefront of understanding technology, the Internet, and the role that it plays in all of our lives.

00:01:54.080 From increased online surveillance and legislation like SESTA-FOSTA, it's people who engage in sex work who are often sounding the alarm about how online harms might start by targeting one community like sex workers, but will later manifest for all of us.

00:02:09.800 So, in conversations about the future of the internet and technology, it's critical that all marginalized voices, including sex workers, are included.

00:02:17.860 My name is Olivia Snow. I am a dominatrix and a research fellow at UCLA's Center for Critical Internet Inquiry.

00:02:26.360 Olivia studies sex work, technology, and policy, and writes about it on the internet. 0.92

00:02:31.220 She's been doxxed and harassed online for it, too. 0.99

00:02:33.780 But that hasn't stopped her from centering sex workers in conversations about the internet and technology.

00:02:39.840 So something that I love about your work is that you really like lean into and interrogate this intersection of sex work and technology in the Internet.

00:02:49.540 What has that been like?

00:02:50.740 Like, why do you think it is so important for people who care about the Internet and technology to understand how sex workers show up on the Internet, how sex workers use technology?

00:03:01.380 And how has that been sort of prescient about where we're headed next? 0.90

00:03:05.440 I feel like sex workers are sort of like, they know what the fuck is happening on the internet and where we're going. 0.99

00:03:10.980 Shit that, like, it's like they are constantly calling stuff correctly. 1.00

00:03:17.600 How is that? 0.99

00:03:18.880 I remember I was on the subway home from work at like three in the morning and I was going through, I think, Facebook.

00:03:24.060 And on my people you may know, all of my coworkers were on there.

00:03:28.020 And, like, we never, we didn't know each other's real names.

00:03:31.920 like i don't i don't want to know any other sex workers real names especially if we're in like a

00:03:36.060 double session you know i don't want to be like mistress megan or whatever if like her name's

00:03:41.180 like emerald or something so i was like oh my god facebook is doxing me like doxing i mean i guess

00:03:49.160 not doxing because doxing means with malicious intent but well maybe but still um and you know

00:03:55.240 it was obvious like okay like we're in close physical proximity we're sharing the same like

00:03:59.560 wi-fi network like it makes sense that you know we're together 12 hours a day um but you know

00:04:05.260 that's when i started really i don't know noticing how harmful just like being on the internet is

00:04:12.720 even if you're having a cell phone even back in like the 90s and the early thousands were getting

00:04:18.340 their fake accounts closed um for doing sex work which like like how did they know you know even 0.97

00:04:26.520 like before cell phones like how the fuck would like chase bank know that the money you're 0.98

00:04:31.540 depositing is from sex work and like try like okay you know if you're depositing a certain 0.96

00:04:37.600 amount of money and a certain uh like size of bill at a certain atm at a certain time then like

00:04:44.180 you're either selling drugs or you're selling sex yeah i've read your piece about or i've read

00:04:48.320 pieces about like being today being banned from platforms like venmo or even grubhub where it's 0.98

00:04:54.300 Like, I'm just trying to get a chicken sandwich.

00:04:55.900 Like, I'm just trying to get lunch.

00:04:57.700 And I guess I wonder, is there, a lot of the people that I talk to on this show, they are

00:05:02.460 marginalized people who have been raising the alarms about things on the internet.

00:05:06.940 And oftentimes, it's like, this harm is going to impact a marginalized group, and then it's

00:05:11.960 going to impact everybody.

00:05:13.380 Is there a vibe that you feel where it's like a constant kind of, I told you so, or a constant

00:05:18.980 kind of like I hate to be right all the time where folks engaged in sex work are like constantly

00:05:24.360 talking about these increased levels of surveillance and digital judgment um and have been kind of for

00:05:29.100 a while oh absolutely and like you know I used to really love being like I told you so because I'm 0.87

00:05:34.800 like an kind of an asshole but like I don't love it now I hate it um I'm working on an article right

00:05:41.700 now where like canary in the coal mine is the metaphor that's usually used but like that depends 1.00

00:05:47.360 on the minor actually listening to the canary and getting the fuck out of mine it doesn't happen

00:05:50.880 it's more of a like cassandra kind of situation where we're like god like and you know people

00:05:56.600 think we're making it up um so like i got banned from doordash about a year ago

00:06:01.180 and i tweeted about it went like semi-viral um and a bunch of sex workers were in my replies like

00:06:07.800 oh my god this happened to me like what the fuck and then a bunch of uh non-sex workers were like 0.90

00:06:12.780 well i i don't know how are you sure like maybe it was something else like did you violate terms 0.99

00:06:21.120 of service or whatever um and you know like it was abundantly obvious to me because i've also

00:06:29.320 been you know i've been kicked off that mod i've been kicked off cash up i've been kicked off

00:06:32.440 field which is weird because that's like a kink site i'm like really really i've been kicked off

00:06:38.020 tinder um and you know it's it's a tiktok like a bunch i'm my tiktok account has been suspended

00:06:44.460 like i think twice and i've never even posted anything on tiktok ever like at all um so it's

00:06:50.720 clear to me that there's some type of data sharing happening whether it's um you know that you're

00:06:55.320 on the same device whether you know other whatever details i don't know i'm not that kind of doctor

00:07:00.780 but um um you know an algorithmic sweep of high-risk accounts then sex workers are going

00:07:07.720 to get caught up in it um which like i mean also i feel like responses at least my personally

00:07:14.220 losing doordash was kind of like like oh well i'll make you a new account or like how can i 0.95

00:07:19.300 send you a sandwich and i'm like no that's not the point point is that like fucking doordash 0.70

00:07:25.580 is like somehow privy to this information it's frustrating i guess to i mean and i i don't know 0.92

00:07:34.060 if it's necessarily gaslighting because like I guess people really do believe that I'm you know

00:07:41.020 making it up or whatever or like this can't be true you know DoorDash isn't well actually no

00:07:45.940 DoorDash I remember when this went viral and the New York Post reached out to DoorDash they were

00:07:49.600 like no we would never so that's gaslighting but um yeah I don't know it's it's yeah it's frustrating

00:07:56.900 it's one of those things that people really have to listen to and center marginalized people sex

00:08:03.460 workers very much included when you're thinking about the future of the internet and so much of

00:08:07.200 your work is like speaks to that and looks to that and like you know when we're thinking about

00:08:12.060 the kind of internet that we want to have making sure that those voices are centered like you know

00:08:16.720 when we have legislation like the kids online safety act that you know has so much bipartisan

00:08:23.040 support when you hear things like oh this is a law to legislate the internet in order to protect

00:08:30.940 kids protect kids what goes through your mind like what do you think when you hear stuff like

00:08:34.000 that i mean you know if you'd asked me that question six years ago i'd be like we should 0.97

00:08:40.300 protect kids like literally nobody at least nobody in congress gives a single shit about 0.73

00:08:46.560 protecting kids i'm like half these people were on like the epstein book what like they 0.80

00:08:51.580 they do not care um it's clearly like a smoke screen for increased surveillance to me like

00:08:59.720 that's all i think at this point i do not believe anyone i mean i won't i mean we've seen it you

00:09:03.880 know in other sectors like the like rising homophobia that i personally haven't seen since

00:09:09.680 like 2004 um that's also you know protecting kids from like groomers or whatever the fuck

00:09:15.980 um you know it's just i i i don't even think that that people making those claims at this point are

00:09:23.400 doing it like i don't i don't think they're doing in good faith period you know this is always and

00:09:28.340 you know it's not necessarily about sex workers but yeah this is always about increased surveillance

00:09:32.100 they do not care about kids if they cared about kids they'd be working on guns are they working

00:09:36.520 on guns no so like that's yeah it's and it keeps working like also like i mean i know i'm like

00:09:49.720 relatively quite privileged like i'm a white woman with a phd like that's pretty high up there

00:09:56.660 um and i often get pushback that's like like you're a privileged white woman because i'm like

00:10:03.540 well yeah exactly and you're still not listening like

00:10:07.120 like i mean imagine if i if i weren't like then we wouldn't even be having this argument because

00:10:13.820 you wouldn't like deign to bother with me let's take a quick break

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00:10:41.940 about podcasting think again more americans listen to podcasts than ad-supported streaming

00:10:46.840 music from spotify and pandora and as the number one podcaster iheart's twice as large as the next

00:10:52.020 two combined so whatever your customers listen to they'll hear your message plus only iheart can

00:10:57.040 extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio think podcasting can help your business

00:11:01.700 think iheart streaming radio and podcasting call 844-844-iheart to get started that's 844-844-iheart

00:11:10.540 if your bookshelf and your for you page are equally important to your personality welcome home

00:11:16.720 This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:11:29.180 I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.

00:11:36.280 I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

00:11:39.420 From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.

00:11:46.200 It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.

00:11:53.320 Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.

00:12:02.900 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:12:08.820 See you between the pages.

00:12:16.380 And we're back.

00:12:18.520 Roe vs. Wade was overturned almost a year ago.

00:12:21.600 And since then, we've all had to navigate what online privacy really means

00:12:26.540 when simply accessing information online about abortion

00:12:29.380 can be used as evidence to put people behind bars.

00:12:32.960 Now, this is something that sex workers know all too well.

00:12:35.520 That same vast network of online surveillance and criminalization used to target sex workers also threatens people who need abortions.

00:12:44.200 In a piece for Wired called Are You Ready to Be Surveiled Like a Sex Worker?

00:12:48.540 Olivia points out that this post-Roe world is simply the next step in a larger campaign to expand state surveillance and erode the right to privacy, a campaign that sex workers have been fighting for decades.

00:12:59.900 do you see a connection between sex work and abortion rights as it pertains to the internet

00:13:05.080 and the way it's legislated oh yeah um i mean just like the ways that they're tracked like okay so

00:13:10.560 this is going to be an underground economy you're going to have to use cash they're also going to be

00:13:14.720 monitoring how you use cash um you know your your like geolocation will be weaponized um

00:13:22.260 you know like facial uh recognition technology at like traffic stops might be used to identify you 0.90

00:13:29.380 like shit that you thought was private isn't in a lot of the same ways um not like almost 1.00

00:13:37.560 all of the same ways um and i mean it's all just you know uh trying to restrict what women do with 0.98

00:13:46.720 their bodies you know and like regardless of if that you know is the actual outcome i think that's

00:13:52.460 the intent uh on one hand on the other hand i'm like i don't i also don't care what the intent is

00:13:58.920 because, like, I don't want to waste my time being like,

00:14:03.360 but why is fascism?

00:14:04.800 Like, not the point.

00:14:08.620 But, yeah, no, I see them as entirely connected.

00:14:11.320 I mean, same with the, like, anti-trans legislation.

00:14:16.660 Like, it's all about restricting what people do with their own bodies.

00:14:20.780 It feels like we're in a much more dire place

00:14:23.380 because the last time that, you know,

00:14:25.700 like in the 70s before Roe was the law of the land,

00:14:28.280 we didn't have this like vast surveillance network. We all didn't carry GPS devices in

00:14:34.400 our pockets. And I feel like one of the ways that we're kind of worse off today is that

00:14:39.880 there has been this sort of piece by piece tacit in like normalization of that. But I think that

00:14:46.420 we have this relationship with tech companies that like, it's fine that they surveil us. And

00:14:52.920 actually, maybe it's good. Like I have nothing to hide. I'm never going to do anything wrong.

00:14:56.580 like you know where we don't even think about it anymore like when um ring released that show that

00:15:02.640 was like ring nation funny videos that you get from your ring camera i think that's meant to

00:15:08.960 i think it's meant to signal to us that like this vast surveillance is actually good because it

00:15:15.760 creates funny moments that you get to watch on tv so you shouldn't really think that critically

00:15:19.980 about it right no and i mean i think that's also tied up with like the way that like i've been

00:15:26.340 calling it like the clout economy kind of works where i mean thank god i didn't tweet in 2013 i 0.92

00:15:34.160 think i had twitter but like you know like stupid shit but like you know whatever we've all said 0.99

00:15:41.240 stupid shit that we don't need to have on the internet um that just kind of like follows it 1.00

00:15:47.760 also makes me think of like the gdpr like there's no right to be forgotten anymore there's no grace 1.00

00:15:54.040 um if you i don't know do something stupid and you know everything is so bad faith in a way i

00:16:03.400 myself barely show up on social media because i don't want to deal with it like i obviously there's 0.98

00:16:10.940 there's like egregious cases but like for the most part you know you and i are the same age

00:16:15.240 we like we have grown up online and so like we were we were products of our age products of our

00:16:24.400 environment products of like the social political climate of the time i don't think this is the

00:16:28.560 internet landscape that we want i don't think it's the internet landscape that actually fosters

00:16:32.000 things like good faith disagreements conversation learning you know fucking up in public and being

00:16:37.680 like oh i'm you know i messed up i learned something i don't think we have an internet 0.64

00:16:40.960 climate that welcomes any of that. It's just an ocean of bad faith attacks that you have to like,

00:16:46.800 like a minefield that you have to navigate through, not something that you can actually

00:16:50.100 show up to, to, you know, learn something. And like, we're living in this fascist

00:16:54.800 hellscape. Like, of course, it makes sense that you want to, you know, unleash that rage somewhere.

00:17:00.260 Some people are very committed to weaponizing anything. And you're someone who is like,

00:17:05.660 quite visible on on social media as we're in this like weird place with musk owning twitter

00:17:11.700 how has it impacted how you show up on on twitter as someone who was so visible

00:17:15.780 well you know i recently went face out maybe like two or three weeks ago after like long

00:17:20.340 discussions with my therapist but like you know there there are so many for until i got doxed i

00:17:28.680 was meticulous about not even sharing my time zone not saying anything about the weather not

00:17:34.040 saying if i was taking like a train or a bus or a car or maybe i would like say i was taking a car

00:17:37.820 because i don't own one anymore um so that people wouldn't be able to track me down and at a certain

00:17:42.340 point you know it's horrifying to be dogs obviously like i've had to move twice um but um

00:17:48.840 like my parents found my dogs which is how why i haven't like spoken to them in what over a year 1.00

00:17:54.860 now which all was kind of a blessing in disguise because like fuck those two people i don't want 0.98

00:17:58.320 to say like liberating because it's not it's horrible but um knowing that there is nothing 0.99

00:18:05.900 you can hide like or yeah we were saying like oh I don't need to hide anything like no I actually

00:18:11.620 do need to hide a lot of things like my address and how I make money um but having that um

00:18:18.920 just kind of pulled from you i feel like um it doesn't make things easier but um it like that

00:18:32.340 there's a whole level there's a whole thought process that i would have to go through um to be

00:18:38.200 like oh did i like erase the metadata did i crop out the time zone did i you know that i don't need

00:18:43.620 to do anymore. And that's weirdly, well, I guess not weirdly, but that's, you know, it freed up a

00:18:50.460 lot of mental energy I didn't realize I was expending. Yeah. I mean, I don't share anything

00:18:56.660 that is like truly personal, like in a meaningful way with the internet because I, I don't have it

00:19:04.480 in me. I feel like, I feel like there's a cost, particularly for women, particularly for women

00:19:10.140 who are engaged in sex work,

00:19:12.660 I think there's a cost that other people

00:19:16.920 don't have to carry to being someone

00:19:19.860 who's visible online.

00:19:21.280 But what's most difficult for me, I think, 0.99

00:19:23.440 is that if they want to expose my shit, 1.00

00:19:26.020 like, whatever, go ahead. 0.99

00:19:26.960 But the people close to me,

00:19:29.040 like my grandfather, for instance,

00:19:31.040 or partners, ex-partners, friends.

00:19:36.060 I mean, my partner was doxed. 1.00

00:19:38.120 And I still don't know how those motherfuckers 0.99

00:19:39.800 figured out that I was dating period let alone who I was dating um excuse me um and you know 0.99

00:19:48.040 that too was just fucking horrifying but also made me think you know like the person I'm dating now

00:19:54.560 is able to deal with that horror more than like some of my exes that I'm still friends with um 0.95

00:20:02.660 and you know having to just carry the burden of protecting other people's safety and other

00:20:09.500 people's privacy when my own has been just taken is a lot but I mean that's like like that's how

00:20:18.300 it works it's never just that the woman it's her partner it's her mom it's her community like

00:20:23.100 that's part of the way that this kind of harassment functions it's like I'm not going to just come

00:20:29.020 after you I'm going to make everybody I'm going to get make there be a cost for anybody associating

00:20:33.960 with you in your community right or like when i've done like panels or you'll probably get this

00:20:39.380 when you upload this and like however many weeks or whatever people will be like um so i just wanted

00:20:44.600 to let you know that dr olivia snow is actually a fascist and they'll probably like send you some

00:20:50.620 deranged twitter threads like about how i'm i don't know like drinking baby's blood because

00:20:55.960 that's not yeah i mean i don't like i have gotten i hope this doesn't sound weird i have gotten

00:21:03.520 only once a DM from somebody I didn't know, just so you know you're following this person who was

00:21:08.520 like, kicks puppies, kills babies. And I didn't reply because I have a blanket rule. I don't

00:21:16.700 engage with that. If you're going to tell me that someone was violent toward you or something,

00:21:21.220 totally different story. Right. I don't engage with this attitude of how can I cut this person

00:21:26.400 down by making them lose followers on Twitter? I'm not going to engage with it. Not interested.

00:21:33.520 well you know years ago i might have been like oh that's fucked up i'll unfollow them or whatever 0.90

00:21:38.380 but you know now having had these well i mean you know years ago i guess i didn't have the 0.72

00:21:43.200 visibility on twitter that i have now so i guess it's kind of a moot point but like

00:21:46.660 you know unless you're telling me that something yeah like you said like that someone was violent

00:21:51.720 to you specifically or you can give me some like concrete shit that i can look at and be like oh 0.67

00:21:56.180 wow jesus christ right and yeah and even then you know if it's something from like a tweet that's 0.93

00:22:02.560 taken out of context from 10 years ago. Like that's, I just, this is what you're spending

00:22:07.280 your time on? Really? Exactly. Like I am not in the business of like legislating people's online

00:22:13.360 grievances. It's just like, I'm, I'm, and I think it makes the internet worse for everyone when

00:22:19.760 that's how people perceive it, when that's how people engage with it. You know what I mean?

00:22:24.380 Yeah. I find that people tend to reach out to other marginalized people specifically.

00:22:32.560 to try to, you know, warn them that I'm, you know, sexist or homophobic or transphobic, whatever the fuck. 0.54

00:22:39.660 In a way, like knowing that I am a part of a lot of these communities that they're trying to just sever me from. 0.91

00:22:49.960 More after a quick break.

00:22:51.260 get bell pure fiber internet with crave netflix and disney plus from 94 a month price guaranteed

00:23:03.320 for two years on internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit visit bell.ca for details

00:23:08.360 and to check availability bell connection is everything run a business and not thinking

00:23:13.700 about podcasting think again more americans listen to podcasts than ad supported streaming

00:23:18.740 music from spotify and pandora and as the number one podcaster iheart's twice as large as the next

00:23:24.040 two combined so whatever your customers listen to they'll hear your message plus only iheart can

00:23:29.180 extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio think podcasting can help your business

00:23:33.960 think iheart streaming radio and podcasting let us show you at iheartadvertising.com that's

00:23:40.440 iheartadvertising.com if your bookshelf and your for you page are equally important to your

00:23:45.720 personality welcome home this is prose society the weekly podcast that's part book club part

00:23:53.320 group chat for thought daughters pop culture obsessives and anyone who thinks pride and

00:23:57.480 prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse i'm eli rallo and every week we're

00:24:02.760 connecting the dots between books the internet and the conversations everyone can't stop having

00:24:07.660 i'm gonna have to look up this story i'm obsessed so obsessed from best-selling authors and your

00:24:13.140 favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments nothing is off the table it's

00:24:18.080 like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters and that is a trojan horse

00:24:25.080 whether you're looking for literary deep dives smart pop culture conversations or a community

00:24:30.240 of readers who love to think a little too much you're in the right place listen to pro society

00:24:35.740 on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts see you between the pages

00:24:43.140 Let's get right back into it.

00:24:50.540 Last month, Elon Musk overhauled Twitter's verification system and ramped up Twitter Blue,

00:24:56.620 the $8 a month subscription service that gives users access to perks like being able to post longer tweets and videos

00:25:03.060 and giving the tweets of subscribers increased visibility.

00:25:07.000 Thinking that anybody who spends money on Twitter Blue is financially supporting Elon Musk?

00:25:11.740 In response, there was a short-lived campaign to block anyone with a blue checkmark.

00:25:17.200 Now, Twitter is pretty much the only mainstream social media platform that will sort of allow sex workers to show up there.

00:25:24.780 Adult content is not explicitly banned on Twitter like it is on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok.

00:25:30.060 And since some of the perks of Twitter Blue, like being able to post longer videos, could be good marketing for sex workers,

00:25:36.900 it kind of makes sense that many of them would choose to stick around on the platform

00:25:40.620 and pay for Twitter Blue, even if it's not an endorsement of Elon Musk

00:25:44.600 or the way he runs the platform.

00:25:46.840 So a campaign to block anyone with a blue checkmark on site

00:25:50.160 is hostile to a community of people who already face digital hostility all over the internet.

00:25:56.000 Thinking about Twitter and your relationship to it,

00:25:58.960 when they rolled out the Twitter Blue subscription,

00:26:02.980 there was a whole campaign of block people with blue checkmarks,

00:26:06.500 But then it was like, you know, Twitter seems to be a platform where a lot of sex workers do show up for their businesses to make money.

00:26:15.260 And so if you're blocking all of them, like, you're not really – you feel like maybe you're getting one over on Elon Musk.

00:26:22.820 But who you're actually harming is sex workers who need, you know, to make livings.

00:26:28.120 And people are like, oh, you're giving $8 to a fascist. 1.00

00:26:30.700 I'm like, do you know how much money this motherfucker has? 1.00

00:26:33.160 $8 is a drop in the – like, really? 1.00

00:26:35.920 really? Like, ridiculous. One of the reasons I'm so active on Twitter is it's the only platform 0.97

00:26:42.780 that tolerates sex workers. Instagram hates us. I mean, I'm not on Facebook, period. I think I 0.87

00:26:49.620 deactivated when I noticed that, like, all my co-workers are getting shocked. TikTok, obviously,

00:26:55.200 like, I don't even use it and I'm not allowed on it. So yeah, no, Twitter is the one platform where

00:27:01.920 we can exist as sex workers and not have to worry about getting booted at the drop of a hat i mean

00:27:07.620 we still have to worry about getting booted kind of at the top of a hat but it's like slightly less

00:27:12.300 bad but yeah no and i mean like it turns out i think that the the twitter blue subscription that

00:27:17.420 like a lot of sex workers were getting didn't end up being that profitable probably in large part

00:27:22.960 because of the um mass blocking which of course um like algorithmically each block de-boosts

00:27:31.060 your visibility by you know however many points i've had people reach out to me to be like oh so

00:27:36.060 and so is dangerous or whatever and in almost every case it's been a trans woman wow and like

00:27:46.700 are they dangerous or do y'all really hate trans women because like there's a pattern here and the

00:27:54.740 pattern is not that dangerous like so you know with the block the blue thing you know like are

00:28:02.780 you really worried that people are giving money to a fascist like what is he like the second

00:28:07.480 richest person on the planet now like really yeah like this is what you're going after and

00:28:12.640 you're not trying to get i don't know like the irs to collect some of the money like really this

00:28:18.080 is your priority um and like are you fighting fascism or do you hate sex workers i mean it

00:28:25.140 sounds like even if it's not based in hating sex workers which it likely a lot of it is i think it's

00:28:31.520 also about like not thinking about sex workers not not like being able to see sex workers as

00:28:39.340 people whose perspectives matter who you want to like have a right to show up in an online space

00:28:45.660 Right. Or, like, who are you okay with being collateral damage?

00:28:50.120 That's such a good way to put it. I think that's exactly it, that, like, well, they don't really matter, you know.

00:28:55.860 Right, or, like, well, we can't just, you know, stop fighting fascism so that sex workers can live. 0.72

00:29:01.680 Like, you're not fighting fascism in the first place. 0.78

00:29:04.100 But, like, decide the point.

00:29:07.020 You know, like, you're just undermining your own point, number one, but, like, I don't.

00:29:11.800 When Olivia is asked how we build a safer internet, she bristles.

00:29:18.300 How can we have a truly safer internet when it's worn from a society that is often not safe?

00:29:23.880 As Dr. Sophia Noble, author of Algorithms of Oppression,

00:29:27.700 a groundbreaking work that confirmed that search engines are built with the same old race and gender biases

00:29:32.880 baked into their algorithms, has noted,

00:29:35.500 Technology is not neutral.

00:29:38.160 It reflects the same dynamics that exist in society and the biases of people who create them.

00:29:44.260 And this is pretty clear when it comes to AI.

00:29:47.440 Back when the AI image generator, Lensa, was taking over everyone's social media feed,

00:29:53.240 Olivia found that the program generated non-consensual, sexualized images of her,

00:29:58.000 even from images of her as a child.

00:30:00.160 And she sees the way that this will be used to harass,

00:30:03.180 especially harass people who are already marginalized online,

00:30:05.900 like women of color, children, queer folks, and sex workers.

00:30:09.740 She writes,

00:30:11.000 This horror story that I just narrated sounds too dystopian to be a real threat.

00:30:15.820 But as I have also learned through my own endlessly revolving door of cyberstalkers,

00:30:20.720 no amount of exonerating evidence is sufficient to quell a harassment campaign.

00:30:25.040 Coordinated harassment is already unfathomably effective in silencing marginalized voices,

00:30:30.760 especially those of sex workers, queer people, and Black women. 0.99

00:30:33.460 without AI-generated revenge porn. 0.97

00:30:36.660 And while the technology may not be sophisticated enough

00:30:39.220 to produce convincing deepfakes now, it will be soon.

00:30:43.480 Your photos will be used to train the AI that will create magic avatars for you

00:30:47.420 and for only $3.99 a pop.

00:30:51.300 You talked about how Lensa, like, it non-consensually sexualizes people,

00:30:57.520 even, like, images of them as children.

00:31:00.300 And so I guess my question is, like, what do you think about this time that we're in where everybody is talking about AI, it seems like?

00:31:07.880 If you scroll Apple Podcasts, the tech charts, every podcast is about AI.

00:31:12.360 We are having so many conversations about how quickly it is developing and how it's going to change everything, blah, blah, blah.

00:31:17.620 Do you, like, as someone who thinks about the intersection of gender, sex, and technology, where do you think we are headed?

00:31:27.100 To hell. 0.98

00:31:29.300 Directly to hell. 0.77

00:31:30.300 like you know with that lensa piece i didn't reach out to lensa because i

00:31:42.360 didn't even yeah i'm not trained as a journalist so i'm just kind of like i don't know i don't

00:31:47.880 have a transcript of the interview sorry but i didn't i didn't reach out to them but i think

00:31:53.440 jezebel did and they were like hey what do you what do you think of this is like it's creating

00:31:58.040 you know child sexual exploitation material um and lensa's response was something like

00:32:02.440 well that person should look into the laws in their jurisdiction and they're always like

00:32:09.620 kind of degendering me like that person they them and i'm like i i have a name and uh whatever

00:32:17.060 anyway and you know because they might be uh like subject to certain penalties for creating

00:32:24.340 this uh like the problem the child sexual exploitation they create like you didn't

00:32:31.080 create it right yeah and they're like well we have a policy that says no photos of kids and i'm like

00:32:36.960 uh like even even if i wasn't so the reason i even thought to put in those childhood photos

00:32:44.440 is because i was just like doing experiments like digging around and i so i first ran it with like

00:32:50.540 just random pictures of myself and I thought that the results were like kind of like I was like oh

00:32:55.200 they're pretty like neat um and you know knowing that my face has been like circulated without my

00:33:01.020 consent I'm like I don't get what they're gonna have my face oh no um and then I ran it a second

00:33:06.940 time using like pictures where I thought I looked hot and that was where um it was uh creating nudes

00:33:15.400 non-consensually um and you know nudes being another thing that you weren't supposed to submit

00:33:19.880 to it right so i ran it again and did you did you run it or did you know once i asked for money i 0.79

00:33:25.840 was like fuck that i tweeted i was like someone sent me $3.99 um so there were three different 0.96

00:33:35.020 gender options was i think female male and i want to say other right so i ran it through the female 0.98

00:33:43.220 one like twice i ran it through the male one and i'm thinking like well like do we like a beard or

00:33:47.280 something and it did maybe on like two pictures but the rest it was just still like hypersexual

00:33:51.120 just in like slightly different ways and then I ran it on the like other gender option and it made

00:33:57.260 me look like a child you know I was like uploading pictures of like me not like in my mid-30s and it

00:34:03.360 spit out pictures where I looked like a teenager um and I think it was because the the algorithm

00:34:10.520 which I just like hate saying like as a like that sounds the Illuminati but like the algorithm

00:34:15.680 um its way of understanding like not male not female is just like totally desexualized and

00:34:24.760 like infantilized um which is you know why i suspect that it you know made my adult

00:34:32.180 face and body and look like that of a child well not body but face like that of a child

00:34:36.400 i think of like like uh sophia noble's algorithms of oppression right that like

00:34:42.340 um the internet reflects back like our absolute worst tendencies um and not just because people

00:34:49.940 are bigger dickheads on the internet than they are in real life um though that you know certainly

00:34:55.860 doesn't help things um that like uh you know what's getting the input to the internet is 0.91

00:35:06.140 like what are like the biases that our culture actually has and our culture like our society 0.98

00:35:13.300 our societies are disgusting we are racist we're sexist we're homophobic we're like we're awful

00:35:21.020 like as just a as a species um and the internet you know it doesn't um it doesn't you know make 1.00

00:35:32.580 value judgments. It just recognizes patterns. And what it's going to spit back out at us,

00:35:38.700 especially with machine learning algorithms that are trying to, you know, tell us what they think

00:35:42.860 we want to hear is going to be like the absolute worst stereotypes. So, you know, once I'm like

00:35:51.660 sexualizing women, like, well, yeah, of course it did. Because we are a disgusting society that 1.00

00:35:57.560 sexualizes women and children. Yeah. And it's sad for me because I think there was definitely 1.00

00:36:03.580 a time where like AI is so powerful that I would imagine that it can reimagine worlds where

00:36:12.480 those kinds of harmful like stereotypes and racism, sexism, fatphobia, transphobia,

00:36:19.920 all of that. I would imagine a world, I would like to imagine a world where it is not just

00:36:25.180 simply recreating these things and

00:36:27.060 reestablishing these things. But I feel like

00:36:29.100 it's so clear that that's not

00:36:30.360 it would be a nice fantasy, but that's

00:36:33.140 not what we're getting. Right. Well, and like

00:36:34.940 you know, there are some

00:36:36.420 like some systems or features

00:36:39.220 like some content moderation in place that

00:36:41.260 you know, prevents like just

00:36:43.180 straight up slurs popping up

00:36:45.260 in something like Chad GBT.

00:36:47.440 But that, I mean, that's

00:36:49.080 obviously a band-aid

00:36:51.080 that's not going to

00:36:52.640 like 0.97

00:36:55.180 just like all the micro regressions inherent in all of this shit um and you know i'm thinking i

00:37:00.860 was asked a few months ago to give a talk on like how to have a safer internet and i remember being 0.95

00:37:06.760 like what that is a ridiculous question because you cannot have a safer internet until we have

00:37:10.920 a safer society because the internet is just a reflection of that then intensified so like sure

00:37:16.580 you can create some kind of ai to identify and take down like child sexual exploitation material

00:37:23.580 but is that going to keep kids safe? No. Like, not at all. You know, like, I, yeah.

00:37:30.640 And it's funny because, you know, your experience with Lensa, with them saying,

00:37:34.660 well, you could be facing, you know, some sort of punishment. And it's like,

00:37:40.880 even if Lensa, the app, even if the tool has a rule against uploading pictures of children,

00:37:46.900 if there's no safeguard, if you're allowed, if you're able to do it, in what way is it really

00:37:50.940 a rule, right? If you can just do it and still get those images, how is it a rule if there's no

00:37:56.540 safeguards? Right. And with them, I was like, I'm not writing this to embarrass you. It's not like

00:38:03.420 a gotcha. It's like, hey, this is violent. Maybe you should work on making it less violent. And

00:38:10.400 of course, the response is like, let's be more violent. I'm not trying to ruin your business

00:38:17.780 model i'm trying to be like hey guys this is actually really dangerous this is really dangerous

00:38:22.980 maybe we should work on making it less dangerous um and just you know i i i get being defensive

00:38:29.000 you know i i'm like i've certainly been accused of being like you know a trafficker or whatever 0.98

00:38:34.420 on twitter because everyone's a fucking idiot um like no one likes getting that you know pointed 0.99

00:38:39.560 out to them especially in a public forum but like uh you're like missing the forest of the trees 1.00

00:38:46.380 here yeah are you concerned about things like ai generated deep fakes and like a marketplace for

00:38:51.640 oh yeah oh yeah the only thing that makes me that gives me some faint horrifying glimmer of hope is

00:39:00.660 that um that technology is just becoming more and more widely available and i wonder if like

00:39:08.600 deep fake revenge porn will just become so ubiquitous that the like first response will

00:39:15.800 be like oh that's deepfake revenge porn instead of like oh that's real right yeah it's oh absolutely

00:39:22.000 and i mean it's already become a problem see i remember in that once a piece i wrote something

00:39:27.020 like like you know what like in four to six months deepfake revenge porn is going to be

00:39:32.200 everywhere and i'm like lo and behold four months later they're like streamers and shit um just

00:39:37.960 getting harassed with this um and you know it's revenge porn is interesting too and i think this 0.99

00:39:43.960 goes back to like why people like fucking with sex workers and just like marginalized people 0.97

00:39:47.760 in general is that like it's not necessary it's not physically violent you're not like 0.98

00:39:53.400 punching someone in the face you're you're you know but you are i mean and even beyond like

00:40:01.080 damaging their reputation and damaging their career the like psychological warfare of some 0.99

00:40:05.820 of this shit where it's just a constant environment of fear um not even of what you're actually doing 0.92

00:40:13.380 But not even what you could be perceived as doing. I mean, I see very little benefit to AI, if any, considering its potential for harm. 0.99

00:40:27.260 Yeah. I personally have a little bit of trouble wrapping my head around all the different conversations about AI. What is PR? What is true? What is like doomism? What is marketing? Where do you think, how do you think AI is going to shape the experience of marginalized people 10 years down the line?

00:40:46.240 i mean i think that like there are some things ai is like actually good at and it's like stupid

00:40:51.220 mundane office shit like i need to come up with a course description for a class i've just and i've

00:40:56.600 been meaning to just get on chat gpt and be like hi chat gpt you give me a course description for 0.93

00:41:02.800 blah blah blah and then you know like tweak it or whatever but like you know writing like mundane

00:41:07.040 emails and shit like i i can't even imagine the number of hours i spent in grad school thinking 0.93

00:41:13.020 like should i sign it with best or sincerely like that kind of shit you know ai i think is is good 0.97

00:41:20.600 for but you know i cannot imagine without um without restriction what well like i i maybe i 0.66

00:41:34.080 could but i like don't want to you know like um you know i don't think that ai i know ai is not

00:41:40.420 sentient i think that's a ridiculous argument um but the way that some of this gets coded gives

00:41:47.200 ai not the agency but like doesn't restrict it from doing like wildly harmful shit um 0.97

00:41:54.840 and you know i i really can't see a functioning society if ai continues at the pace that it is

00:42:01.760 i mean and of course that like rests on the assumption that we're currently in a functioning

00:42:05.760 society which like is questionable um i know i i really can't um think of how that could possibly

00:42:17.920 be a reality that anyone could live in i mean we're in this very weird moment in technology

00:42:25.380 right now platforms feel weird the future of platforms feel weird all this ai stuff 0.99

00:42:31.300 fuck elon musk fuck elon musk forever what the fuck i know it is it is bad i mean and i'm just 0.99

00:42:39.800 like the people i know personally who worked at twitter who had like their entire lives upended 1.00

00:42:43.460 and like lots of livelihoods i mean you know that which is such a like minor piece of the puzzle of

00:42:48.820 like how he has fucked up the entire fucking internet yeah it's yeah i mean when we're 0.54

00:42:54.620 thinking about going forward like why do you feel it's so important to include like why is it so 0.98

00:42:59.240 important to make sure that the voices of sex workers are, like, really at the forefront when

00:43:05.000 we're thinking about the future of the internet and the future of tech? Well, I mean, so sex

00:43:09.600 workers, A, have to be on top of tech because we're, like, one of the first things in any

00:43:15.900 terms of service is, you know, no sex-adjacent anything. Like, thanks, FOSA SESTA. You know,

00:43:23.620 we're going to fight prostitution or whatever by making sure that, like, you know, a dominatrix 1.00

00:43:28.520 can't get a burrito right yeah good job yeah so we already have to you know like sex workers

00:43:35.440 on the whole are a lot more familiar with like internet privacy and like how to use vpn and how

00:43:41.620 to use like cryptocurrencies and shit um so like i mean that that's the the one but the other 0.96

00:43:49.100 b being like sex workers are consistently the most loathed and dehumanized people like 0.98

00:43:56.480 period you know like i think of like like no humans involved what that has referred to 0.98

00:44:04.560 it's been what what was it how did sylvia winter put it i think it was like black boys without jobs

00:44:11.140 um undocumented people i want to say and and sex workers um and we are we're so consistently

00:44:20.400 dehumanized we're not seen as people if we are seen as people that it's only for like sadistic

00:44:24.960 purposes that we are seen as such um and we are you know constant we're perceived as a safety

00:44:31.580 threat um so to keep ourselves safe we have to you know be take these i want to say like see

00:44:39.660 almost bizarre measures um to like stay safe in an environment that perceives our existence as a

00:44:47.960 threat um and you know i think what i think is unique to sex workers in that respect is having

00:44:55.760 to be like a step ahead of the curve and that like or like actually being specifically prohibited

00:45:01.900 by policy because you know there are all kinds of demographics that are fully dehumanized but

00:45:08.240 um you know sex workers aren't seen as like i guess like a demographic you know i've been trying

00:45:14.960 to like theorize this where like the internet kind of makes sex work like a fixed identity

00:45:19.680 like even if you're not doing sex work you're still a sex worker um and you know especially

00:45:25.920 with the way that um that like search engines and shit go are you know i i don't know if i 0.98

00:45:32.640 would still be in sex work if i hadn't been doxed by my full name which is ethnic as shit i'm the 0.96

00:45:37.640 only one on the planet with this goofy ass polish name i don't know if i'd still be doing it but at 0.98

00:45:43.020 this point I'm like it's kind of a waste if you know why would I be applying for academic jobs 0.98

00:45:47.720 in fucking literature when they're going to google me and find out that you know I was a dominatrix 0.97

00:45:52.080 in 2019 I might as well be making money off of that because you know now I'm always going to be 0.99

00:45:58.760 a dominatrix like that is always going to be online the way that like sex workers work too

00:46:03.460 has been kind of like misunderstood and misapplied which you know sex workers work means that or

00:46:08.740 should mean that sex workers deserve labor protections like any other worker or workplace

00:46:12.980 safety protections um or like sex workers should you know who experienced violence

00:46:18.480 should be able to you know report them to be protected for it um or from it um but instead

00:46:26.040 this like i feel like the popular view is like sex work is just another job like working at um

00:46:32.740 like the mall which means i can treat sex workers as terribly as i treat other low-wage workers

00:46:38.600 no that is not it like no yeah and like well why didn't you just get another job and like

00:46:44.780 that's not what you know and I get like I think it's hard to to communicate that you know like

00:46:55.380 whore phobia is kind of like an amalgamation of all these other um like biases or like

00:47:03.520 matrices of oppression um and that like the stigma is so bad that in almost every scenario

00:47:11.260 you're not going to turn to sex work unless you have exhausted every other option um which is why

00:47:17.360 you know sex workers are usually like working class or poor or women of color or trans people 0.85

00:47:24.920 think that sex work or like whore phobia is something you can like opt out of or like you 0.70

00:47:30.240 could just quit being a sex worker versus like i can't quit being like a jewish woman um but like 0.97

00:47:36.280 no you can't actually like even if i wanted to no one will let me um and i don't i think that

00:47:46.040 that kind of nebulousness of sex worker as an identity also makes us such like a ripe um 0.95

00:47:55.800 a test population i guess for this kind of shit i saw this headline maybe like a week or so ago 0.98

00:48:03.640 and it was like the fbi or the you know secret service or whatever misused some surveillance 0.99

00:48:10.260 technology that was supposed to identify january 6 writers which side note was my worst birthday

00:48:16.840 no your birthday is january 6 no

00:48:21.160 but it was like uh surveillance technology meant to identify january 6 writers

00:48:31.000 um was used against black lives matter organizers and like i think it said like misused

00:48:37.700 i'm like was it misused because i think that's why it was made

00:48:42.120 like i think that was the point of the tech it's a feature not a bug exactly yeah so you know these

00:48:51.940 few demographics i think black lives matter gets is more visible than sex workers like obviously

00:49:01.320 maybe not obviously i don't know um and no one's gonna argue like you could just opt out of being

00:49:06.100 black like right like that yeah um but i don't know as far as voices that um are like a threat

00:49:17.060 to i don't want to say social order um but or hegemony i don't even know what word i'm trying

00:49:24.900 to think of but i know what you mean yeah thank you um yeah that these voices that kind of threaten

00:49:32.300 the status quo are uh intentionally the most marginalized and therefore need to be amplified

00:49:40.480 all that more you know i was thinking um i was in this workshop maybe like two weeks ago and

00:49:45.400 everyone's talking about center marginalized voices center marginalized voices i'm like

00:49:48.220 okay but the thing about marginalized voices is that they are marginalized right which means no

00:49:53.900 one wants to believe them and no one's going to listen like you could say center marginalized

00:50:00.520 voices all you want but like does that mean that people are actually going to listen to those voices

00:50:06.820 you're centering no like um so you know i like i don't know how to push back on that exactly other

00:50:15.860 than yelling on the internet which i do a lot of well i always end my interviews with asking

00:50:25.640 when it comes to the state of the internet and technology are you hopeful do you have any hope

00:50:31.220 and if so what is it that gives you hope is it a hard no yes

00:50:35.660 um you know i

00:50:42.040 okay so one thing that does kind of give me hope and this maybe sounds artistic but i don't give

00:50:51.460 shit um is that like so i was on this i was in this workshop that was just the marginalized

00:50:55.440 voices one i was just describing like i was invited to this workshop to work uh to work on 0.97

00:50:59.440 ai policy um and you know figure out what to do going forward um and it was uh sponsored by the

00:51:07.580 macarthur foundation and right i'm like like right i say nice hotel for free um but the fact

00:51:16.620 that they're inviting a sex worker at all um to something like that um and it wasn't with me and

00:51:25.360 then i mean as far as like people you wouldn't expect to see at these kind of events um and i

00:51:31.240 think there were two like a formerly incarcerated person and uh another similar organizer um

00:51:39.420 but like the fact that some voices like the most privileged of the marginalized are

00:51:47.560 getting listened to a little bit um makes me think that's a step in maybe the right direction

00:51:54.560 because you know i don't think that's something that was happening 10 years ago

00:51:57.100 yeah take the hope where you can get it yeah that's you know my one faint glimmer

00:52:03.600 like of course i don't and i like i always try to emphasize like when i'm when i say like well

00:52:12.980 it gives me hope that i specifically am being listened to like no it's not about like me

00:52:16.780 specifically or about sex workers specifically because you know at the end of the day this is

00:52:21.820 all going to affect everyone um so you know the fact that somehow these uh like more vulnerable

00:52:30.920 silenced voices are getting heard just a little

00:52:33.160 bit. I think it is

00:52:35.500 hopefully 0.91

00:52:37.460 a sign of the first time of the right

00:52:39.200 direction.

00:52:45.120 Got a story about an interesting thing in tech

00:52:47.160 or just want to say hi? You can reach us

00:52:49.160 at hello at tangody.com.

00:52:50.900 You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangody.com. 1.00

00:52:54.320 There Are No Girls on the Internet

00:52:55.240 was created by me, Bridget Todd.

00:52:57.080 It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

00:52:59.800 Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.

00:53:01.860 Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer.

00:53:04.460 Michael Amato is our contributing producer.

00:53:06.460 I'm your host, Bridget Todd.

00:53:08.280 If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

00:53:11.880 For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:53:30.020 I survived nine months in captivity, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive

00:53:36.740 what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files.

00:53:42.340 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled,

00:53:48.160 and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:53:53.340 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:54:01.720 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

00:54:07.500 Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:54:15.280 Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture

00:54:19.300 with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.

00:54:24.040 Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

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00:54:32.140 Hello, my love. I'm Ryan Weiss.

00:54:34.380 And for the past 15 years, I've been an emotional intelligence coach and a spiritual guide.

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There Are No Girls on the Internet - June 07, 2023

Sex workers know the future of the internet w⧸ Dr. Olivia Snow

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