00:03:53.800probably every other panel or like talk, like speech or talk that I saw was a trans person
00:04:01.480or a non-binary person really speaking out against some of the like horrific legislation
00:04:06.900we've seen in Texas. And there were lots of women speaking out about like the horrible0.93
00:04:11.220abortion legislation in Texas. So even though it felt a little bit strange to be in Texas,
00:04:16.260I was I left so empowered and engaged and like leaned into the fight to, you know, really create change.
00:04:26.340And so I have to really shout out a lot of, you know, abortion advocates and trans advocates that I'm sure being in Texas was like tough for them.
00:04:36.360But I really have to shout out how incredible it was for them to make space to open up conversations about legislation that is harming their community.
00:04:45.600Yeah, I love that because I know like it's kind of so difficult to be in an area where it's so toxic to you as a person, as a human being going through your life and then feeling like, yeah, you know what?
00:05:00.500I can't leave because I have to fight this. There's just that double whammy.
00:05:03.740But that is amazing to hear that such an event, which is an international event, was able to push forward that conversation.
00:05:55.300So, you know, my podcast, There Are No Girls on the Internet, is really all about the ways that issues that maybe don't seem like tech issues,
00:06:01.640issues that impact women and other traditionally marginalized people, you know, they might not be seen as tech issues,
00:06:09.940And today's topic, I think, is a really great example of what I mean.
00:06:12.460So today I want to talk about the platform YouTube
00:06:14.760and their failure to remove a video of actor and activist Evan Rachel Wood being sexually assaulted.
00:06:20.900So it is really important to me, you know, as someone who makes a tech podcast
00:06:23.980and cares about technology and works in technology,
00:06:26.140to talk about this and especially frame it not as kind of a, quote, celebrity story,
00:06:31.920which I've seen it really framed as, or even worse, as a, quote, he said, she said,
00:06:36.860which is obviously not correct, because that kind of framing, I think, really lets tech companies
00:06:42.240that are involved off the hook. I'm sure these tech companies like YouTube would love it if this
00:06:46.960story was not framed as a tech accountability story and was just a sort of, you know, celebrity
00:06:51.980story. But unfortunately for them, I'm not framing it that way. I am framing it as a tech
00:06:57.960accountability story because that's what I believe that it is. That's amazing, because we literally
00:07:02.640we're just talking about an episode which came out with which TikTok I talked about the fact
00:07:07.480that they're allowing these really bad like really misogynistic jokes about killing women on dates
00:07:13.060essentially and allowing it saying it's not violating anything it's just a joke and it's
00:07:18.180kind of like wait where's the accountability no you are allowing this rhetoric that people are
00:07:23.180just latching on to which is so toxic and harmful and dangerous for women in general so we need to0.93
00:07:30.340have a conversation about why you are accountable for these things. But I digress, because let's
00:07:36.960hear about exactly what you're talking about, especially with Evan Rachel Wood. I think I know
00:07:40.540a little bit about it, but if you can just kind of go into that. Absolutely. So here's what's
00:07:44.460happening with Evan Rachel Wood. Basically, Wood has spent a few years now advocating for survivors
00:07:50.680of sexual violence and abuse. And when she's done this, she's often referenced her own,
00:07:55.140you know, heretofore unnamed abuser. But on February 1st, 2021, Wood publicly named her
00:08:01.240abuser in a message on Instagram. She wrote, the name of my abuser is Brian Warner, also known to
00:08:06.480the world as Marilyn Manson. He started grooming me as a teenager and horrifically abused me for
00:08:10.620years. I am here to expose this dangerous man and call out the many industries that have enabled him
00:08:15.940before he ruins any more lives. And so a quick note for people who are listening, you will
00:08:20.580probably be more familiar with Brian Warner as his stage name as a musician, Marilyn Manson.
00:08:26.180But I am not going to call him Marilyn Manson in this episode. And I have basically stopped
00:08:30.540calling him Marilyn Manson in general, because I think it adds to this mythology that Brian
00:08:35.600Warner has created around himself. And I believe that he has exploited that mythology to continue
00:08:40.320to abuse women. I'll talk a little bit more about what I mean later in the episode. But
00:08:44.900when I say Warner, Brian Warner, I'm referring to the musician whose stage name is Marilyn Manson,
00:08:51.020whose actual name is Brian Warner. And Evan Rachel Wood is not alone. Several women,
00:08:56.180including women who are not famous and don't have a public profile like she does,0.59
00:08:59.640have made similar claims against Warner. So far, 16 women have accused Warner of sexual abuse and
00:09:05.540four have sued him for sexual assault. So, you know, I said earlier that people were mistakenly
00:09:10.320framing it as a he said she said so even though that framing is not correct even if that is how
00:09:15.740you were framing it it wouldn't really be a he said she said it would be more like a he said
00:09:19.800she said she said she said she said you know 16 times yep at the very least exactly I mean like
00:09:29.060who even knows you know this is what we know about that's a really good point yeah yeah and
00:09:35.600And I remember when this came out and when it first came out, this is kind of news, but it's recently I saw it come up again that Warner is kind of pursuing a legal, a legal battle of his own against her.
00:09:51.900So can you go into more like what is going on right now?
00:09:55.300Right. So this, you know, we were talking about this when Evan Rachel Wood first named Warner as her abuser back in 2021.
00:10:01.680But the reason why we're talking about it right now is because Evan Rachel Wood just released a new documentary, which you can watch on HBO Max, a two-part documentary called Phoenix Rising that really chronicles her story.
00:10:13.120As you might imagine, it is a difficult watch.
00:10:15.640I watched the first part of it and I had to take a break from the second part, which I was watching last night because it's a little, I mean, as you might imagine, it's not the easiest watch.
00:10:23.920So just if you're planning on watching it, just know that.
00:10:25.820So the movie, it's interesting in that it starts ostensibly as a kind of Erin Brockovich-style story, chronicling Wood's successful campaign to pass the Phoenix Act, which is a legislation that extends the statute of limitations on domestic violence in California.
00:10:40.080But during filming, when Wood publicly names Warner as her own abuser, the film begins to follow that aftermath.
00:10:47.620And so the documentary really chronicles her upbringing, her work to become a survivor advocate and a domestic abuse advocate,
00:10:57.380trying to pass this legislation, and then kind of pivots when we see her publicly name Warner as this person who had abused her,
00:11:06.020that she had been referencing as her abuser for so long in that work.
00:11:10.080the new red bull dragon berry and tropic berry energizers now at mcdonald's made with freeze
00:11:23.680dried fruit and an electric burst of flavor the all-new red bull energizers now at mcdonald's
00:11:31.460this product may not be right for you high in caffeine details at mcdonald's.ca and participating
00:13:31.520Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.0.98
00:13:36.060I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.
00:13:40.620I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.
00:13:48.060They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:13:52.020But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:13:55.460They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:13:58.600Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:14:13.180And I know when we were originally seeing all of this come out, because I remember seeing her testify before the name was coming out in front of the Senate,
00:14:20.420trying to talk about the statute of limitations and going into this whole conversation and how
00:14:25.040quickly after the fact she showed herself as the survivor advocate and she named him how many people
00:14:32.180came behind her like oh my god this is why this is familiar as well as the fact when she described
00:14:37.200some of the events that happened to her many women already came out because they had gone through
00:14:41.080some similar things including how they met so can you kind of talk about their relationship
00:15:27.360Now, she describes this as a kind of grooming and love bombing situation where, you know, early on he was referring to her as his soulmate and really was making her feel like he was the only one who really got her, really loved her.
00:15:42.900Early on, she describes him kind of starting to isolate her from her friends and family.
00:15:48.220And that was the beginning stages of their early romantic relationship.
00:15:52.720And so at this point, you know, you might be thinking, you know, why would someone like Evan Rachel Wood get involved romantically with someone like Warner, who was known for these shocking kind of gross antics on stage?
00:16:06.540And that kind of really goes back to why I'm not going to call him, quote, Marilyn Manson.
00:16:11.240And I think that big part of that is because Warner's public persona as Marilyn Manson really helped him get away with gross, abusive behavior in public.
00:16:21.060So if you were a young person like me in the 90s, you might remember that after the Columbine school shooting in 1999, Warner was legitimately unfairly blamed for the deaths of 15 young people after it was misreported that the Columbine shooters were big fans of his music and that his music motivated them in the shooting.
00:16:39.580You know, at this time, politicians were lobbying to have his performances banned, citing these really over-the-top, exaggerated, outlandish, untrue claims.
00:16:48.280Things like at his shows, that he would have the security guards spike the drinking water at the shows and give it to young kids in the audience, or that he was engaging in bestiality on stage or, like, ripping apart animals.
00:17:00.760Warner's legal team actually sent the American Family Association a cease and desist for saying that he encouraged kids to engage in violent sexual acts from the stage in the audience.
00:17:10.260And so none of that was true. And Warner countered these legit, unearned, unfair responses to the threat that his music poses to kids by doing these sort of very thoughtful, measured interviews where he was able to portray himself in direct opposition to this outlandish onstage persona that these...
00:17:30.260politicians and conservative figures were sort of demonizing. And so as he was being demonized
00:17:35.980by these people and sort of, you know, them making up these outlandish exaggerations and
00:17:40.160claims about him, he was able to really present himself as this measured, thoughtful, reasonable
00:17:46.660person. And one interview that really sticks out to me, if anyone has seen the documentary,
00:17:50.400Michael Morris Bowling for Columbine, there's a sit down segment with Marilyn Manson where he
00:17:55.760says things like, oh, the young people who perpetrated the Columbine shooting would have
00:18:00.340been safer had they purchased my CDs, you know, rather than buying guns. And so he, I remember
00:18:06.680specifically, he comes off as this very thoughtful, measured, nuanced guy. And it really created this,
00:18:15.260I don't know, this sort of portrayal of him as someone who was being unfairly maligned. And thus,
00:18:24.300some of his other behavior was really able to go unscrutinized because it was so clear he was being
00:18:30.320unfairly demonized for this behavior that he never actually engaged in. Like he wasn't actually
00:18:35.220spiking the drinking water at his shows and having sex with animals on stage.0.91
00:18:40.020Right. And I know we're going to get into this more later because I have a lot of thoughts about0.60
00:18:43.660all of this. And as I said, you do such a great job of like, there are a lot of nuances to this
00:18:47.560conversation. But I remember I listened to Marilyn Manson when I was really young. And
00:18:54.240I had a friend who was, her parents were really conservative. And they no joke showed up at my
00:18:59.680mom's house and yelled at my mom for letting their daughter listen to it. And it became such a point
00:19:07.820of, like it didn't have to become this point, but it became such a point of like, oh, you conservatives
00:19:14.820don't get it. You're trying to like hold me down and you don't understand. And like, I feel so
00:19:20.080outcast and you'll never get it. And it, it, it, their kind of outrage made it into a bigger thing
00:19:26.580than it would have been. If they had never said anything. Oh my gosh. I had the same exact
00:19:32.820experience, right? So I was a kid, I was in junior high. I had a heyday, I'll say. And, you know,
00:19:38.480I was like an altie. I wouldn't say I was like a goth kid, but I was definitely very altie. And
00:19:42.560I totally had the same experience. I ate up this idea that he was being unfairly persecuted
00:19:50.040And I, you know, felt like I was being unfairly persecuted as this like weirdo, alty kid as a junior high student.
00:19:57.700Never mind the fact that like that wasn't actually necessarily happening.
00:20:00.700That's just how I felt because I was a teenager.
00:20:02.840And I think he really, really used that exact thing as a way to avoid accountability for his other behavior.
00:20:43.800that he was being unfairly persecuted.
00:20:46.200At the time, you know, I don't know if people remember what it was like to be a young person after Columbine.
00:20:51.440If you were like a little altie or if you were all black, it did kind of feel like, you know, the powers that be were cracking down on who you were in the aftermath of that shooting.
00:21:00.660And so I think that had there not have been such a backlash to the music, Warner's music would have just been another in a mixed bag of stuff that I liked.
00:21:11.100You know, I liked Prodigy. I liked the Spice Girls. I liked so many different things.
00:21:13.960But because of this over-the-top response to his music, it pushed me that much further into this kind of, I don't know, dangerous vibe where he gets to position himself as unfairly persecuted.
00:21:27.160And anybody who doesn't like him or his behavior is just, you know, doesn't get it and doesn't get you, edgy teen.
00:21:39.560We're not going to tell you the time frame of this.
00:21:41.760But I do find that interesting that we have this conversation because absolutely remembering all of the politicians coming in and saying this is this kind of that whole time frame around the Matrix, as well as video games and blaming all of these things.
00:21:57.080but also how they like to over demonize kind of like how it's happening with QAnon and when we
00:22:02.840talked about sex trafficking and that they are doing so much theatrical things that that make
00:22:08.280no sense that it's overshadowing the actual problems that are happening and therefore
00:22:13.600exactly like taking attention away from the true crimes or the things that are so horribly wrong
00:22:20.040because it is being overshadowed by the caricature of accusations merely for a platform merely for
00:22:27.060politics. And it's so obnoxious because, yeah, because of that, Marilyn Manson got this
00:22:32.400credibility for being misunderstood, as you had already said. And then also he's able to use that
00:22:40.360now as a part of his defense today. But I know we're going to be able to talk about that in a
00:22:44.960minute. Absolutely. I mean, and then also what you just said, isn't it interesting how the American
00:22:49.840Family Association and all these politicians were trying to ban his shows? We never did much about
00:22:53.880guns though. That was just like, we had the conversation about violent video games, The
00:22:58.720Matrix, black clothing, trench coats, Brian Warner, but not the guns. So it's exactly what you just
00:23:04.120said of kind of an intense overreach that reaches to the wrong cause, I guess. And then lets the
00:23:11.540real cause just go unanalyzed. Yeah. And I think that something that's been on our minds a lot
00:23:20.160lately is this idea of consent and how our environment is really set up where true consent
00:23:28.240for women is almost impossible. And this situation being such a grooming situation where you have0.69
00:23:34.520this person coming in who's much older and who is showering you with attention. And I was saying
00:23:40.940recently on an episode, like, I'm ashamed to admit it, but I shouldn't be because I was raised to be
00:23:46.040this way but like when I was 18 and people cat call me I'd be like flattered let's be good oh
00:23:50.540my gosh I have desirability that means I have value um and that put me in some unsafe situations
00:23:57.680so this I hate this I hate that she was young and there was this older person that she respected
00:24:04.500and she was getting this attention and it's just absolutely predatory absolutely preying on her
00:24:11.580Yeah. I mean, I can really identify. I'll just say that. And it's one of those things where
00:24:17.140you don't necessarily realize it until you're older. And I mean, it applies in this situation
00:24:24.680too. I want to be careful about how I speak about this because it is part of the conversation. But
00:24:29.840when Evan Rachel Wood was in a relationship with Marilyn Manson early on, and keep in mind,
00:24:35.460she's 18. She's very young. I remember very clearly her in interview saying like, oh,
00:24:40.720people need to stop saying that I'm being taken advantage of or groomed. And I think it's easy
00:24:45.760for people to say like, oh, well, now we're supposed to believe her when she says that
00:24:50.960she's being, that she was being groomed or coerced. Well, she was 18 when that happened.
00:24:54.680She was 18 when they met. Like you're so young. And so it's completely tracks with my own personal
00:25:01.280experience is that you might not have the world experience or just the life experience or,
00:25:07.080you know, your own understanding of your place in the world at 18. It might take a few years
00:25:13.240for you to look back on that and say, hey, I was being coerced or, hey, you know, I was being
00:25:17.320groomed or, hey, some things happened that shouldn't have happened. And I didn't have
00:25:21.640the language or the voice yet to say, I don't want this to happen. And I think that's one of
00:25:26.880the reasons why this story is one that needs to be told because I think that's all of ours. I think
00:25:31.980that's so many of our stories. It's so common. I think it's completely unfair to use that as a
00:25:37.400reason to not support survivors, not listen to survivors because it is so common. Right.
00:25:48.800The new Red Bull Dragonberry and Tropicberry Energizers now at McDonald's made with freeze
00:25:56.040dried fruit and an electric burst of flavor the all-new red bull energizers now at mcdonald's
00:26:03.820this product may not be right for you high in caffeine details at mcdonald's.ca and
00:26:07.200participating canadian restaurants excluding quebec run a business and not thinking about
00:26:11.120podcasting think again more americans listen to podcasts than ad-supported streaming music
00:26:16.280from spotify and pandora and as the number one podcaster iHeart's twice as large as the next
00:26:21.240two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only iHeart
00:26:26.140can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your
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00:26:37.340That's iHeartAdvertising.com. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to
00:26:42.760your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club,
00:26:50.040part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks
00:26:54.240Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:26:58.120I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books,
00:27:01.800the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:27:05.060I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.
00:27:08.800From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments,
00:27:14.760It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.
00:27:22.700Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.
00:27:31.840Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:28:03.820Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.
00:28:06.960unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling
00:28:14.260that there was someone at the end of my bed and I just started screaming. They are abducted,
00:28:21.800stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:28:27.860They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with
00:28:33.400Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:28:45.540I think that big portion of this conversation is that the early sexualization of young girls
00:28:51.680point blank is part of this problem because I know a lot of this conversation when Evan
00:28:56.380Rachel Woods came out in her acting career, she was 13, 14, and came out with this big
00:29:01.100indie film that pretty much talked about young women growing older real quick trying to survive
00:29:06.840and thinking the way to survive is to be sexual and grown like that was the the whole basis of
00:29:12.720the movie which that's a whole conversation in itself but because of that because of things like0.97
00:29:18.060that that's where she came into the 18 year old and no one no one listening to the fact that this1.00
00:29:23.160is grooming like I don't care if she's legal now which is which is a bullshit term that whole1.00
00:29:28.200barely legal bullshit that i really want to punch everybody in the face every time they say it1.00
00:29:31.680that's that conversation is really sexualizing these young girls and telling them they are of0.99
00:29:37.360more worth because they're acting grown because they are finally in their way of being a woman
00:29:42.500and finding out and not having the support and understanding or people even letting her know
00:29:47.180the whole concept of consent and why that is a big conversation that needed to be had way back when
00:29:53.480and because of that feeling trapped because she is being told this is what you put yourself in
00:29:57.340You knew what you were getting into, which is the formula of all of the victim blaming, which we see today that has not gone away.
00:30:05.280That's for some reason is used by everyone, not just men, women, all between, because it's so hard to let go of that internalized misogyny of saying, but you knew.
00:30:15.900Absolutely. And she explicitly says that in some of the things that experiences that happened to her that we'll talk about in a moment.
00:30:22.320Like she explicitly says exactly what you're referencing that, you know, she had internalized that she was meant to just go along with whatever.
00:30:30.060And that was that was like what she was supposed to do.
00:30:32.320And that is something that I think that we all internalize and we have to sort of like I know that I have a lot of unlearning to do around, you know, like saying no when something doesn't feel right or when, you know.
00:30:42.840And for me, it has been a lifelong process.
00:30:44.820And so it sounds like for her, she had to learn that as well.
00:30:48.460And as you said, I mean, it starts so early and 18 really is so young.
00:30:54.420You know, she talks about how when she first met Brian Warner, she said that she really liked him and what he stood for.
00:31:00.520And she wrote in his in her journal that she thought that he was the hero and the spokesperson of misfits.
00:31:05.920And I it just really does sound like he did a very good job of making her feel like that was true, that she maybe felt like a misfit and that he was an advocate for people who felt like they didn't belong and that he really used that persona to continue to abuse women and girls pretty much in public.
00:31:28.920There's this great piece in The Atlantic
00:37:23.480And we should really be asking the question about what we depict as romantic.
00:37:30.440And I think something that you said I can't stop thinking about is that it starts so young.
00:37:35.160Like, how many of you all remember when if you're a girl and then maybe a guy, a guy when you were a kid pushes you on the playground and some adult somewhere is like, well, it's probably because he likes you.0.99
00:37:47.540Right. You know, like we should not be. It happens so early that we make it OK when, quote unquote, affection or love is actually abuse.0.99
00:38:00.840Right. We should really be asking questions about it.
00:38:03.080I mean, honestly, I would just one of my go to comfort movies that I kind of tease about all the time is Ratatouille.
00:38:10.740And recently I like there's a scene in and I was like, oh, my God, why did we allow this?
00:38:15.060In which the rat comes through the roof and you see a couple fighting with a gun.
00:38:22.100It goes off and he's like, oh, my God, and goes back and they're kissing and making out.
00:38:26.220And he just he just laughs and shrugs and walks off.
00:38:48.900It's like, oh, but they just love each other.
00:38:50.940Oh, that's just one of those with one more couple like that.
00:38:53.360You know how marriage is, how you sometimes argue, you get out the gun, then a minute later you're kissing.
00:39:00.600you know a gun goes off and then right you forget about it everything is fine but that's the thing
00:39:05.960it's like what are we teaching I mean I don't want to be one of those people like but what is0.93
00:39:09.940this movie teaching but like that is it's become so normalized in these conversations that women
00:39:15.400really truly are girl young girls really truly think this is the epitome of being a woman this
00:39:20.380is the epitome of being in a relationship tough times means he hits me but I forgive him like
00:39:25.540That's that conversation until you realize, oh, my God, I couldn't see it until I left and until I figured out talking to other women, how it was not just him loving me, that this is him controlling women in general.
00:39:45.580We need a podcast because I'm like, yeah, let's talk about how we're not allowing for consent and all this stuff.
00:39:55.540the new red bull dragon berry and tropic berry energizers now at mcdonald's made with freeze-dried
00:40:05.320fruit and an electric burst of flavor the all-new red bull energizers now at mcdonald's this product
00:40:13.540may not be right for you high in caffeine details at mcdonald's.ca and participating
00:40:16.520canadian restaurants excluding quebec run a business and not thinking about podcasting
00:40:20.840Think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only iHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business? Think iHeart. Streaming, radio and podcasting. Call 844-844-iHeart to get started. That's 844-844-iHeart.
00:40:48.520When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.
00:40:54.680I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.
00:41:01.040I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.
00:41:04.760I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying,0.99
00:41:12.800Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.
00:41:17.360I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.
00:41:21.820I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.
00:41:29.420They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:41:33.340But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:41:36.780They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:41:39.920Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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00:41:54.800This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
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00:45:21.240Who would want the kind of scrutiny that comes with being a public survivor of this kind of abuse?
00:45:26.620Who would welcome that into their lives?0.99
00:45:28.840Some of these women are also, you know, not public figures.1.00
00:45:32.160People don't make this kind of thing up.0.99
00:45:34.160It is so rare for people to make up allegations of this kind of abuse that it just, let alone 16 different people, it just doesn't cold water.
00:45:47.980And again, probably more than 16 that's coming out.
00:45:50.900But the conversation is, too, that the actual events and abuse were so similar to each other.
00:45:57.100Even the Game of Thrones actress, Esme Bianca, I think is her name, she had similar stories to Wood.
00:46:03.740like being deprived of food, being electrocuted, like there are so many things. It's like this is
00:46:09.180beyond just maybes. And I do remember that he had one partner who actually was like, that didn't
00:46:14.820happen to me. And people latched onto that story so hard. And it was kind of like, but that doesn't
00:46:20.280mean anything. It doesn't mean it just negates the entirety of the story of who he is at this
00:46:26.020point in time. And I can't stand this because it also comes back to the point of demonizing these
00:46:31.580women and shaming them in every way possible taking any work of art that they did so as actors1.00
00:46:36.900who may have portrayed a nude scene at any point in time see she's a slut how do you she obviously1.00
00:46:42.680she knew what she was getting into this whole level of conversations where they just completely1.00
00:46:47.380try to discredit someone based on this and really feeling like obviously these women are doing it
00:46:52.700for attention when it actually hurt a lot of their careers Evan Rachel was for a long time was out of
00:46:57.220so many things out of projects because of the trauma alone.
00:47:00.960Yeah. So he did have a ex-partner say, he was always nice to me. And I'm not going to
00:47:06.580discount what she's saying, but as we know, you know, someone being nice to you doesn't mean that
00:47:12.620they are never abusive to other people. And so people absolutely latched onto that. And you're
00:47:18.140absolutely right that it certainly has not helped the careers or the trajectories of the people who
00:47:23.020were speaking out. And it's just like, that's not how it works. Like, people don't lie about
00:47:28.460this kind of thing. It does not help. It hurt Evan Rachel Wood to come out. She risked a lot
00:47:33.320to come out. And this idea that, oh, they're doing it for attention. Who would want this
00:47:37.600kind of attention? Right. Who? Right. And also, let's talk about the fact that Warner is not in
00:47:42.180jail. Exactly. He's thriving. He was on a damn Kanye West show. Ugh, I hate it. I hate it.
00:47:50.000So you might be wondering, well, okay, in what way is this a tech issue?
00:47:56.400And so there is one specific incident in the abuse that Wood talks about that I want to focus on right now.
00:48:02.240And that is the music video for Warner's song Heart-Shaped Glasses.
00:48:06.140That music video features Evan Rachel Wood.
00:48:08.760She was in that video when she was 19 years old.
00:48:11.500And he kind of casts her as a modern-day Lolita because apparently the story goes that she was wearing these heart-shaped sunglasses at the party where they met.
00:48:19.140and in, you know, Lolita wears heart shaped sunglasses in the book. And so in the documentary,
00:48:25.140Wood says of the music video, we were doing things that were not what was pitched to me.
00:48:29.880We had discussed a simulated sex scene, but once the cameras were rolling, he started penetrating
00:48:34.280me for real. And she goes on to say, it was a really traumatizing experience filming the video.
00:48:39.820I didn't know how to advocate for myself or how to say no, because I had been conditioned and
00:48:44.900trained to never talk back, to just soldier through. I felt disgusting, like I had done
00:48:49.540something shameful, and I could tell the crew was very uncomfortable and nobody knew what to do.0.96
00:48:54.480I was coerced into a commercial sex act under false pretenses. That was the first crime committed
00:48:59.380against me, and I was essentially raped on camera. And so, according to Wood, the music video for
00:49:05.940Heart Shaped Glasses is actually a video of her rape, and that video is available, not to mention
00:49:11.920monetized on the platform YouTube as we speak. Anybody who wants to go see it can look it up.
00:49:18.200And so Warner's campus, they deny these allegations and they say that Wood was coherent and involved
00:49:23.080in the planning of the video. They say, of all the false claims that Rachel Evan Wood has made
00:49:27.420about Brian Warner, her imaginative retelling of the making of the heart-shaped glasses music video
00:49:31.94015 years ago is the most brazen and easy to disprove because there were multiple witnesses.
00:49:36.580So they maintain that the scenes in that video were actually simulated.
00:49:40.600However, Rolling Stone spoke to a crew member from the video shoot under the condition of
00:49:45.840anonymity who corroborated Wood's claim saying, I do believe that there were some moments of
00:49:52.140And so that for me is really how this becomes a tech issue and a tech accountability issue
00:49:57.240is that according to Wood, YouTube is promoting housing and monetizing a video of where she
00:50:05.520says she was being sexually assaulted. And frankly, I'm inclined to believe her. And so the question0.85
00:50:10.120is, what is YouTube going to do about this? Are they going to just allow a video of a sexual
00:50:17.120assault to be on their platform and continue to profit off of it? I would say if that's the choice
00:50:22.100they're making, it's pretty questionable. Yeah. I'm afraid to ask, but is that the choice they're
00:50:28.540making. I, you know, YouTube, they quickly took the video down and then they made a donation to
00:50:36.580anti-rape organizations. Oh, wait, just kidding. They didn't do any of that.
00:50:41.040They basically, so there's a change.org petition with over 50,000 signatures calling for YouTube
00:50:47.200to remove the video. And Evan Rachel would share this petition and they pretty much have signaled
00:50:52.200that they're not going to take it down. Their spokesperson, Jack Malone says, we're monitoring
00:50:56.500the situation closely and will take appropriate action if we determine there is a breach of our
00:51:01.180creator responsibility guidelines. And so this is really why I see this as a tech accountability
00:51:06.140issue. You know, YouTube, like most online platforms, have community guidelines that
00:51:11.180users have to follow. And according to those community guidelines, content that includes,
00:51:15.440quote, non-consensual sex acts and unwanted sexualization is very much against their own
00:51:21.500stated community guidelines. The community guidelines and terms of service says that
00:51:24.800a user can have monetization suspended or have their entire channel terminated if their behavior
00:51:30.560away from the platform harms YouTube users. And so to me, it seems pretty clear they have publicly
00:51:36.540stated that their community guidelines prevent non-consensual sex acts or unwanted sexualization
00:51:42.260in their content. And here we have a video where Evan Rachel Wood says this is exactly that.
00:51:47.420And yet they're continuing to host this video and profit off of it because we know that's how
00:51:52.600YouTube makes their money. It's from advertisements that are on the content hosted on their platform.
00:51:57.500And so, yeah, I think that YouTube is really expecting people to only grapple with this as a,
00:52:04.640quote, celebrity story, not an issue of YouTube and their own adherence to what they say their
00:52:10.480community guidelines are. And, you know, I really take issue with that. I really have not seen a lot
00:52:17.300of folks in the tech community talking about this story as an example, a really clear example
00:52:23.600of YouTube, I think, failing to create a reasonably safe environment for its users and just for the
00:52:30.340world. Right. And out of curiosity, because I don't know much about how YouTube works,
00:52:35.520not tech savvy, is Warner making money from this as well when he gets all these views?
00:52:40.960Oh, that is a good question. I actually wouldn't really, I'm actually not totally sure if he
00:52:45.540specifically is making money from these videos being hosted, but I do know that he has a YouTube
00:52:50.720account. And so just how monetization works, I wouldn't be surprised. I'm not, I'm not able to
00:52:55.220say one way or another, but I wouldn't be surprised. I checked to see if the video was
00:52:58.400still on the platform before we started this, this talk and, you know, right before the video
00:53:03.720played there's ads. And so I can, I can imagine, I wouldn't be surprised if he is making money from
00:53:09.060that as another income stream. And yeah, I guess that's really the crux of why I wanted to talk
00:53:16.700about this is that this is what happens when women and other traditionally marginalized people
00:53:23.240are not really meaningfully centered and reflected in tech. It allows, one, platforms to harm us and0.99
00:53:30.800make money from our harm and be able to do so without any kind of real accountability. And two,
00:53:36.040it allows for there are so many tech publications that are that are missing an opportunity to
00:53:43.040spotlight this as a tech issue in terms of the harm that that YouTube is allowing to be spread
00:53:48.940on their platform. Right. I mean, that's the whole big conversation is that who is making money off
00:53:54.200of someone's trauma? And this is absolutely what is happening is they they're making money off of
00:53:58.840it and giving views and giving credibility to the abuser once again as a musician. And this is such
00:54:04.920a whole other conversation of like, you have a responsibility in making sure that people are not
00:54:11.640continually re-traumatized and or being harmed by your content. And yes, if it is your platform,
00:54:17.540you are responsible, point blank. Exactly. And I also think, you know, YouTube and their community
00:54:23.480guidelines to say, oh, we can take things down if there is a confession or a conviction. YouTube is
00:54:28.780owned by Google, right? Google is one of the biggest companies in the world and how things
00:54:33.040work in the platform accountability space, when a huge player in the space does something,
00:54:38.960it creates pressure for other people to do things. And so if Google was to do something,
00:54:43.740that would create the conditions for other smaller platforms to follow suit because
00:54:47.100big platforms really do set the tone. And so I believe that a company like Google,
00:54:53.220who owns YouTube, should be able to say, we don't need to wait for Brian Warner to confess that he,
00:55:00.100you know, sexually assaulted Evan Rachel Wood on the side of this video, we don't have to wait for
00:55:05.100a legal conviction. We are Google and we can set the standard for what is and is not appropriate
00:55:09.800on our platform. And a video of someone being sexually assaulted is not appropriate. I believe
00:55:15.400that they're really just throwing up their hands and saying, not our problem. Call us when he
00:55:21.300confesses. Call us if there's a conviction. We're going to just ignore this and hope that you do
00:55:26.060too, I think they are absolutely just abdicating responsibility. And guess what? You don't get to
00:55:32.760do that when you're Google. When you're a huge company like Google, you have a responsibility
00:55:37.580that is very, very powerful. And you don't get to just say, it's not our issue. We're going to wait
00:55:42.980for the courts to figure it out. We're going to wait for him to confess when you're Google. That
00:55:46.880is so irresponsible. And it sets up a dynamic where other platforms can follow suit. So it
00:55:53.580really is irresponsible, cowardly, and also just harmful. And again, they're making money from
00:56:01.540this inaction. They're continuing to just let this video rack up millions and millions and
00:56:06.360millions of views that are being made from a video of someone being sexually assaulted.
00:56:10.560And let's also point out that it's a video, not the entire artist, not his whole
00:56:15.380genre of music. One video. That was the request. It shouldn't be that hard.
00:56:21.900Exactly. And I guess I just, I mean, yeah, it shouldn't be this hard. And I want so desperately to believe that a different world for survivors is possible. In the scheme of things, so small, asking for one music video to be removed. In the scheme of things, what is that?
00:56:41.720You know, I feel like that is such a small ask that a survivor has clearly made.
00:56:51.760I want to believe in a world where survivors can expect more.
00:56:54.980Survivors can expect dignity and respect and to be listened to and meaningfully centered.
00:56:59.960And I believe Google has a chance to do that, that they're just giving away.
00:57:05.960Right. And it's exactly what you were saying that this is a question of believing women, respecting women. Let's say it was consensual just for the sake of argument. And she's like, I don't like this because whatever happened beforehand in this relationship, it was traumatic. Please take it off. That should be enough. That should be enough.
00:57:27.700without having to regurgitate the same experiences
00:57:31.000and tell them exactly how it hurt you,
00:57:54.380And she talks so eloquently about how she is expected to regurgitate the most traumatic, painful thing that happened to her over and over and over again, and that we create a world where that is supposed to be the pathway for survivors to get justice.
00:58:10.380And I don't think that survivors, A, owe you their stories, or B, should have to relive this pain just to get anyone to do something.
01:00:40.700And, you know, a music video is a workplace, you know, that has a crew, it has people who are paid to be there.
01:00:47.680And, you know, there's just no excuse for that.
01:00:50.460And I'm unwilling to accept that that's, you know, the marker of genius or that we have to put up with men's, powerful men's bad or abusive behavior to get great art.
01:01:02.000No, I'm just unwilling. That's unacceptable to me.
01:01:04.480Agreed. Agreed. I can't wait. We got to have a venting session on one of these.