There Are No Girls on the Internet - October 14, 2021


Facebook makes money off of harming girls： Stuff Mom Never Told You

Topics
Facebook harm to young women Facebook regulation and bipartisan support Facebook
LulaRoe used social media to prey on vulnerable women How to be a whistleblower with Sophie Zhang

Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 5 minutes

Words per minute

176.3

Word count

11,503

Sentence count

666

Harmful content

Misogyny

21

sentences flagged

Toxicity

8

sentences flagged

Hate speech

22

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
00:00:00.000 This is an iHeart Podcast.
00:00:02.580 Guaranteed human.
00:00:05.180 Behind every night spent making the kids' lunches,
00:00:08.020 there's a lot of suspense.
00:00:09.440 Will they finally eat the veggies?
00:00:10.940 Will the pesto survive the first bite?
00:00:12.980 Will the lunchbox come home empty, half full, or come home at all?
00:00:17.020 And will you finish Episode 8 before you're done slicing the cucumbers?
00:00:20.920 Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Crave, Netflix, and Disney Plus
00:00:24.120 from $94 a month.
00:00:25.540 Price guaranteed for two years on Internet
00:00:27.440 with a two-year term and auto-pay credit.
00:00:29.380 Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability.
00:00:32.420 Bell. Connection is everything.
00:00:34.700 Run a business and not thinking about podcasting?
00:00:36.960 Think again.
00:00:37.600 More Americans listen to podcasts, then add supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.
00:00:41.760 And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined.
00:00:45.880 Learn how podcasting can help your business.
00:00:47.720 Call 844-844-iHeart.
00:00:50.080 I survived nine months in captivity,
00:00:53.240 and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.
00:00:58.760 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files.
00:01:02.380 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:01:09.920 These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:01:13.740 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:01:21.360 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:01:27.100 Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:01:35.740 Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.
00:01:44.000 Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.
00:01:45.760 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:01:51.160 There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.
00:02:03.680 I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.
00:02:09.100 We are back with a little hiatus update, this time all about, you guessed it, Facebook.
00:02:15.440 Now, if you've been listening to Tangody for any amount of time, you know that Facebook
00:02:18.660 is the platform I love to hate. I think it's an evil company that has profited from destabilizing
00:02:24.240 democracies and hurting already marginalized communities. Hate Facebook. Hate them. Can't
00:02:29.580 stand them. And last week, we learned a lot more about just how aware Facebook is about the harm
00:02:35.180 their platform causes in our communities. I joined my friends Annie and Samantha at the podcast
00:02:40.360 Stuff Mom Never Told You to discuss the harm that Facebook causes young women and girls,
00:02:44.600 revealed in the bombshell Wall Street Journal expose
00:02:47.240 based on documents and data
00:02:49.320 from former Facebook employee turned whistleblower,
00:02:52.040 Frances Hagen.
00:02:53.200 But Hagen is not the only person
00:02:55.180 who has blown the whistle on Facebook's shady practices.
00:02:58.620 And next week, we'll hear from Sophie Zhang,
00:03:01.340 a former Facebook employee
00:03:02.700 who blew the whistle on Facebook last year.
00:03:05.620 Trust me when I say you will not want to miss
00:03:07.420 her incredible story.
00:03:09.120 But in the meantime,
00:03:10.220 here's my deep dive into Facebook's damaging impact
00:03:12.700 and teen girls on Stuff Mom Never Told You.
00:03:20.080 Hey, this is Dani.
00:03:21.360 And Samantha.
00:03:22.300 And welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You,
00:03:23.500 a production of iHeartRadio.
00:03:33.460 Today, we are so thrilled to once again
00:03:36.100 be joined by the amazing Bridget Todd.
00:03:40.720 Hello, Bridget.
00:03:41.840 Hello, Dani.
00:03:42.700 Hello, Sam.
00:03:43.360 I'm so excited to be here back with y'all again.
00:03:45.580 Always a delight.
00:03:46.700 We're so excited to have you because as we were just discussing,
00:03:50.800 you have brought to the table a topic we wanted to address.
00:03:55.400 We knew it was super important, but we were like, we better wait for Bridget
00:03:59.220 because Bridget, you have got more know-how than either of us do.
00:04:05.640 You've worked with Facebook.
00:04:07.120 You've interacted with these social media companies.
00:04:09.020 You've just been a huge activist and a very outspoken in this area
00:04:12.520 and so so excited that we are talking about this today yeah and also when we're talking about
00:04:21.300 social media i'm not gonna lie you're one of the people that i see the most of in all of my social
00:04:26.900 medias whether it's twitter instagram typically more twitter and then like instagram i see your
00:04:32.320 face and the amazing things you're doing and i have to ask i cannot figure out how you're doing
00:04:38.540 everything that you are doing because you are constantly on go. Like I see you in all the
00:04:42.840 panels and all the conversations, all the interviews. Everybody wants to talk to you,
00:04:45.920 of course. But also you live what I am seeing to be my fantasy life in the travel. Like is this
00:04:54.620 your real life? Are you as fantastically living as I see? Because I'm quite jealous of all of
00:05:00.380 the beautiful trips, all of the sunset pictures, all the lovely like sitting by the water pictures.
00:05:06.320 What is this life?
00:05:07.680 What is your life, Bridget?
00:05:09.680 I'm so glad you asked.
00:05:10.820 So this is actually such a good segue into the topic,
00:05:13.560 which is that I think if you were to check out my Instagram,
00:05:16.880 you would be like, oh, this is a person who lives a phenomenal life.
00:05:20.180 It's a lie.
00:05:22.240 I mean, yes, I do the trips.
00:05:24.720 I do the travel.
00:05:26.000 The last few weeks I've been traveling on the road
00:05:28.420 and I was in the Catskills right outside of Woodstock, New York,
00:05:32.700 which is one of my favorite places to go.
00:05:34.500 And if you were just observing from social media,
00:05:37.140 you would be like, wow, this person barely works. 0.76
00:05:40.300 And when she does work,
00:05:41.940 she's just like sitting on a stage and it looks lovely.
00:05:44.400 And then she's like going to the Catskills
00:05:45.980 to her lovely cabin.
00:05:47.040 I posted a picture on Instagram of me in a hot tub
00:05:49.940 overlooking like rolling mountains
00:05:52.360 and like very beautiful fall foliage.
00:05:54.840 And to be like honest,
00:05:56.620 I did spend a lovely week in a lovely cabin
00:05:59.460 in the Catskills,
00:06:01.080 but I was also working the entire time.
00:06:03.720 And so like, it wasn't really that fun.
00:06:05.520 My partner was there
00:06:06.420 and they were working the entire time.
00:06:08.060 The picture of me in the hot tub,
00:06:09.660 the hot tub had broken.
00:06:11.560 And so we had two good nights with it.
00:06:13.540 And then when I was in it for that picture,
00:06:15.660 I was like, oh, I don't think it's actually on.
00:06:17.320 It's actually kind of cold,
00:06:19.420 even though I look like very relaxed.
00:06:22.280 So no, I mean, like it's such a like curated,
00:06:26.600 greatest hits reel.
00:06:28.240 And I'm so glad that you asked
00:06:30.360 because I think it's important to demonstrate that,
00:06:32.660 you know, Instagram versus reality, it's not always as peachy keen rosy as it seems.
00:06:40.040 I have to also put in the fact that not too long ago, you injured yourself and you are still like
00:06:45.840 just riding on with all of these activities that you're doing, including the fact that you are
00:06:50.120 pretty much bossing it up everywhere and doing all of these interviews. Because I'm like,
00:06:54.820 when does this woman ever stop? Does she ever stop? Because I'm sitting in my own couch playing 1.00
00:07:00.980 this sad phone game
00:07:03.180 that I've been obsessed with
00:07:04.180 while watching things on repeat.
00:07:06.320 Aw.
00:07:07.400 Oh, I do a lot of that as well.
00:07:09.600 And it's so funny
00:07:10.460 because we did our first live taping
00:07:12.960 of my podcast, 1.00
00:07:13.880 There Are No Girls on the Internet
00:07:14.780 in New York, 0.99
00:07:15.760 during that trip.
00:07:16.960 And someone was like,
00:07:18.220 oh, wow, you're back on your feet
00:07:19.920 from breaking your ankle.
00:07:20.960 And I was like, no,
00:07:21.740 I just, I used my cast
00:07:23.780 and my crutches to get on the stage
00:07:25.140 and I changed my shoes.
00:07:27.140 So again, you would think
00:07:28.380 that I'm totally healed.
00:07:30.140 But it's like, no, in actuality, I'm still in the cast.
00:07:34.480 Yeah, I mean, that is such a great segue for what we're talking about.
00:07:39.600 And this story around Facebook and particularly the damage that it does to young girls has, like, caught the national attention recently.
00:07:52.400 The national attention.
00:07:53.540 and like it was a skit on SNL
00:07:57.240 and it's been funny slash sad
00:08:00.920 to see these older politicians
00:08:02.740 try to make sense of things like Instagram.
00:08:06.300 Oh gosh.
00:08:07.160 Oh my gosh.
00:08:08.960 But it's just so much of what you bring
00:08:12.360 in these episodes
00:08:14.120 just demonstrates the real world damage
00:08:18.460 and impact that we often separate
00:08:20.200 or believe that the internet doesn't have,
00:08:21.960 but it does.
00:08:23.260 So can you break down this whole thing?
00:08:27.660 I will try my best.
00:08:29.580 There is a lot going on.
00:08:30.920 So, you know, Facebook has had a rough, I mean, a pretty intense few weeks.
00:08:35.440 There's a lot happening.
00:08:36.400 And the thing I really want to focus on is the harm specifically to young girls, like teenage girls.
00:08:41.900 That is not the totality of like what's going on in like the last few weeks for Facebook and really the last few months for Facebook.
00:08:48.340 But if I were to talk about all the different harmful things that Facebook has done and is doing, you'll be here all day.
00:08:55.300 So I really want to focus on the impact that it has on young girls and teen girls.
00:08:59.680 Because, you know, I just think that, like, it's easy for teen girls and their experiences to be sort of sidelined or marginalized.
00:09:08.120 And so with all the different information coming out, I really want to focus on that.
00:09:11.740 And so just generally kind of like what's happening and sort of why this conversation is taking place.
00:09:16.600 The Wall Street Journal published a series of really bombshell exposés about Facebook called The Facebook Files.
00:09:21.920 It's also a podcast, if that's how you prefer to get your media.
00:09:25.140 And it was all based on leaked data from documents from a company gathered by a whistleblower named Francis Hagen,
00:09:31.820 who used to work in Facebook's now defunct civic integrity team.
00:09:34.960 And that was the team that was really tasked with combating things like misinformation and making sure that misinformation and disinformation did not derail elections.
00:09:42.740 And so it's not surprising to me that they dismantled that team.
00:09:45.320 And it's a nine-part series, and it pretty much chronicles Facebook's most harmful and troubling practices and behavior.
00:09:53.220 From this expose, we found out things that, like the fact that high-profile celebrity Facebook users are pretty much exempt from Facebook's moderation rules,
00:10:02.740 and that Facebook is aware that their platform is used to, quote, promote human trafficking and domestic servitude.
00:10:09.740 And so I would recommend that anybody
00:10:11.900 either read the entire series or listen to the podcast
00:10:14.460 because there's so much there.
00:10:16.600 It's like every new drop, I'm like, wow, wow, wow.
00:10:20.440 And I'm somebody who studies and works on Facebook
00:10:23.440 and the harm that they perpetuate.
00:10:26.360 Right.
00:10:27.940 Right.
00:10:28.700 It did seem to be like, oh, wait, and what?
00:10:32.000 Oh, wait, and what now?
00:10:34.340 And it's interesting to me because
00:10:36.420 I think we've talked about on the show, but just in society in general, it's interesting to me when
00:10:44.240 we make these jokes, but why are we accepting this as the reality? But one is, you know,
00:10:51.460 Facebook is this place where it is harmful and you're going to get like your weird uncle giving
00:10:57.720 you some strange conspiracy theory. And we're just like, yeah, that's cool. That's what Facebook is.
00:11:01.980 the powers that be were so
00:11:04.100 like yep you know it doesn't really
00:11:06.000 matter because like you said that these issues
00:11:07.780 that are impacting teen girls in this
00:11:10.040 case are just seen as sort of frivolous
00:11:12.320 or like they're being
00:11:14.320 emotional like it's just
00:11:15.780 social media what's the big
00:11:17.920 deal right
00:11:18.900 yeah but apparently it is
00:11:21.940 a big deal and it
00:11:23.900 has been making an impact and
00:11:25.760 Facebook did this
00:11:27.040 they knew it and they kept
00:11:29.200 going on
00:11:31.280 with their platform and they tried to hide it.
00:11:35.800 But now that it's come out, like,
00:11:38.580 heavy sigh, heavy sigh.
00:11:42.480 So can you talk about the scope of the issue here?
00:11:48.420 Yes.
00:11:48.920 So as you said, I mean, like,
00:11:50.940 something to note is that
00:11:52.020 even though we're all talking about it
00:11:53.280 and it's in the news,
00:11:54.160 a lot of this information is really not new.
00:11:56.220 It's stuff that we've known from prior research
00:11:59.040 or just from like being a casual user of the platform.
00:12:02.820 If you're a casual user of Facebook even,
00:12:04.920 you probably might've suspected like,
00:12:06.800 oh, Facebook might be making money off of causing harm.
00:12:10.700 And so this is really not surprising,
00:12:12.220 but exactly as you put it,
00:12:13.480 I think why this is news right now
00:12:15.640 is that we're getting an insight into
00:12:17.020 how much Facebook already knew
00:12:19.820 about the harm that their platform causes in our society
00:12:23.200 and how much they're trying to sort of downplay it.
00:12:25.680 And so another reason why we know
00:12:27.140 that this is not a new issue
00:12:28.440 is that there have been Facebook whistleblowers in the past.
00:12:31.900 Sophie Zhang, she's a former Facebook data scientist 0.90
00:12:34.160 who uncovered abusive political manipulation using fake engagement.
00:12:38.180 She found a series of multiple blatant attempts
00:12:41.000 by foreign national governments to abuse the platform on vast scales
00:12:44.420 to mislead their own citizenry,
00:12:46.320 which caused international news on multiple occasions.
00:12:48.820 That's from her report.
00:12:50.180 The summary of that is basically that, like, you know,
00:12:52.420 accounts belonging to government leaders
00:12:54.460 were using fake accounts to engage with their content,
00:12:58.000 to make it look like it's more popular than it is.
00:12:59.960 So if I'm a government leader and I put out like,
00:13:03.040 we have plans to do this.
00:13:04.220 And then I have a bunch of fake accounts
00:13:05.440 who were like, yes, we love this plan.
00:13:06.960 We love this plan.
00:13:07.760 We love this plan.
00:13:08.780 It's like building fake agreement for your policies.
00:13:12.320 And so essentially that's what Sophie Zhang uncovered.
00:13:15.080 And, you know, Facebook has been allowing
00:13:17.480 and profiting off of these harmful practices forever.
00:13:20.240 So this is really not new.
00:13:21.480 And I always like to remind people that Facebook started
00:13:25.240 because Mark Zuckerberg, when he was in college,
00:13:28.580 created a website called FaceSmash,
00:13:31.340 which basically was like a way to rank the attractiveness
00:13:35.660 of his female co-students, right?
00:13:38.640 And so misogyny and attacks on women
00:13:41.420 and harm against women, this is like not a mistake.
00:13:44.980 It is baked into these platforms like Facebook
00:13:47.300 from the very beginning.
00:13:49.180 Zuckerberg will tell you like,
00:13:50.200 oh, that's not true, that's not true.
00:13:51.660 Like I happened to build a website called FaceSmash
00:13:54.300 that was shut down and then a few months later created a website that was pretty much the same
00:13:59.440 thing called Facebook. Those are unrelated. Obviously, that's not true, but that's what
00:14:03.480 he would tell you. And so, yeah, the fact that websites and platforms like Facebook are harmful
00:14:10.040 to young women should not be a surprise because, in fact, they were created on that harm. That is
00:14:15.720 a big part of why they exist in the first place. And reading this expose, it really gets into
00:14:22.260 the harm that Facebook has done in terms of teen girls and young women. So trigger warning,
00:14:28.220 you know, this talks about eating disorders, suicide, depression, and so that's something
00:14:32.320 that is tough for you to hear about. Unfortunately, that's a lot of what is going on. And, you know,
00:14:37.780 this is really something that is kind of personal to me because, you know, I love the internet. I
00:14:44.380 love being online and I always have. And when I first got on the internet, like I'm old, so this
00:14:49.580 was the late 90s, I had so many different kinds of experiences. Some of them were negative. I was
00:14:55.000 definitely in chat rooms doing stuff I shouldn't have been doing when I was young. But some of
00:15:00.200 them were also incredibly liberating and self-affirming. If not for having the internet
00:15:05.900 in my bedroom in my small Virginia town, I wouldn't have known that I'm queer. I wouldn't
00:15:13.440 have known. I don't know that I would be doing what I'm doing today or even living the life that
00:15:18.540 I am living today. Like that, like the internet is what allowed me to see myself and fully become
00:15:23.840 myself as an adult. And I keep thinking like, this was 1999. And so the ecosystem did not exist
00:15:31.840 to have billionaires making money, profiting off of my negative experiences and negative feelings.
00:15:38.840 And I don't think I would have been able to use the internet as this tool of self-discovery and
00:15:43.620 self-affirmation had that been the case. And I really do think that like the younger generation
00:15:48.480 they deserve to have an online experience
00:15:50.620 that is not a marketplace for their pain,
00:15:53.420 for their negative feelings,
00:15:54.660 and it does not incentivize them
00:15:56.580 to be the worst versions of themselves.
00:16:00.040 And I'm really lucky that I came of age when I did,
00:16:02.600 when there wasn't a marketplace for my pain as a young girl.
00:16:05.640 But today's generation, as these leaks really demonstrate,
00:16:09.300 is really not so lucky.
00:16:18.480 Behind every night spent making the kids' lunches, there's a lot of suspense.
00:16:22.600 Will they finally eat the veggies?
00:16:24.100 Will the pesto survive the first bite?
00:16:26.140 Will the lunchbox come home empty, half full, or come home at all?
00:16:30.180 And will you finish Episode 8 before you're done slicing the cucumbers?
00:16:34.080 Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Crave, Netflix, and Disney Plus from $94 a month.
00:16:38.720 Price guaranteed for two years on Internet with a two-year term and auto-pay credit.
00:16:42.840 Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability.
00:16:45.560 Bell. Connection is everything.
00:16:47.160 run a business and not thinking about podcasting think again more americans listen to podcasts
00:16:53.060 than ad-supported streaming music from spotify and pandora and as the number one podcaster
00:16:57.660 iheart's twice as large as the next two combined so whatever your customers listen to they'll hear
00:17:02.380 your message plus only iheart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio
00:17:07.260 think podcasting can help your business think iheart streaming radio and podcasting call 844
00:17:13.360 844-844-IHEART to get started. That's 844-844-IHEART. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held
00:17:22.100 captive for nine months. I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive
00:17:28.340 what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files. I just
00:17:34.480 remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. Every week, 0.97
00:17:43.360 I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.
00:17:46.860 I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.
00:17:51.400 I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.
00:17:58.360 They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:18:02.860 But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:18:06.300 They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:18:09.380 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:18:18.340 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:18:24.260 This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:18:36.740 I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:18:43.860 I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. So obsessed.
00:18:47.440 From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.
00:18:53.380 It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.
00:19:00.860 Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.
00:19:10.460 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:19:16.500 See you between the pages.
00:19:17.580 i know we've talked before about things like spawn con and how these big celebrities usually 1.00
00:19:30.060 women in this case will you know try to sell these items that are all about 1.00
00:19:35.340 being thin usually and what i'm thinking of and if i had been young and i had seen that 1.00
00:19:42.340 and like all these challenges people have about being super thin like that I know for a fact
00:19:48.920 that would have impacted me that would have been something that I would have thought okay this is
00:19:53.900 normal I need to try to do that I need to look a certain way and those messages were already
00:19:57.760 strong without that I just know for certain that it would and I am someone who I the internet is
00:20:06.620 I love the internet I think it's a beautiful place for a lot of things and I know when this
00:20:11.560 Facebook outage happened people were like well you know on one hand celebrating but we should
00:20:17.140 also remember like you know marginalized people who connect that way and also businesses that
00:20:21.320 run that way all these things but it it just has become so for me like I'm gonna feel bad about
00:20:30.660 myself if I engage in this it's such a weird dichotomy to me because there's this one group
00:20:37.820 of you see things that I really wish I had seen as a kid.
00:20:41.460 So we're talking about people being able to find themselves
00:20:45.500 and not realizing maybe there is a reason why you are this way.
00:20:50.000 Maybe that doesn't make sense that you're home,
00:20:51.760 but there's a community out there that can see you,
00:20:54.340 that knows you and feels what you feel.
00:20:56.760 But at the same time, you have this other aspect of this untruth,
00:21:00.900 like you're talking about this fake persona of happiness
00:21:04.400 that doesn't truly exist.
00:21:06.260 And therefore, if you haven't reached that or if you don't try to reach that, then you have failed.
00:21:11.040 So these two like vast differences is such a heartbreak to me because I'm like, yes, this is good, but this is not good.
00:21:18.500 So where do we fall on this line? Because I'm not going to lie.
00:21:21.400 It wasn't until after that I saw all the notifications that all these things were down that I realized it was even down.
00:21:27.120 I was like, oh, is that what happened?
00:21:29.300 OK, cool. I just assumed me being me, my technology wasn't up and going.
00:21:33.960 So I moved on to whatever the next thing was.
00:21:37.180 But this conversation that we have when we see how much of an influence that is the influence, there's no real middle ground, especially when we talk about the younger generations, about they're going to be influenced, whether it's the positive side that they're on or the negative side that they're on.
00:21:51.760 They're on one of them.
00:21:53.120 And I couldn't imagine what that feels like today.
00:21:56.060 And I'm insecure as hell as an adult.
00:21:59.640 So coming as a teen, trying to really figure out who they are and feeling like maybe their home life isn't what they want or what they need or it's not healthy.
00:22:09.960 And then having to go to this spot, to this space, and you don't know what's safe anymore.
00:22:15.900 And I think about that with my nieces and nephew that I'm like, oh, my God, this is what they're growing up with.
00:22:20.740 And I see that level of like, how do we help them?
00:22:24.620 but at the same time, not try to pull them away from the world,
00:22:27.660 make them naive and not be a part of the world.
00:22:30.480 Such a weird thing.
00:22:32.000 Yeah, I mean, you just articulated such a tension that I feel
00:22:36.520 as someone who loves social media, uses social media,
00:22:39.820 but is really clear about these downfalls and these negative aspects of it.
00:22:44.520 It can be used to find community, feel less alone, you know, build movement.
00:22:50.480 But it can also be used in these incredibly damaging and negative ways.
00:22:55.000 And I think you really put it so well, Sam, this idea of like, you know, we know from this leak and from the Facebook, you know, Facebook's own words and their own data that platforms, their algorithms really do incentivize, you know, the negative.
00:23:11.240 And so you see more content that is polarizing or that makes you angry or that is incendiary rather than content that is like positive or affirming or that kind of thing.
00:23:21.480 Like algorithms prioritize the bad.
00:23:24.900 And I think that young people can have all different kinds of experiences online, some of them good, some of them bad.
00:23:31.360 But it's a problem when platforms incentivize the bad, right?
00:23:36.260 When they traffic in the bad, when they promote and amplify the bad.
00:23:39.440 So it's not just like a neutral experience where whoever is using the platform can decide if they want to gravitate toward experiences online that are going to be affirming and good and, you know, all of that stuff, or bad and extreme and incendiary and polarizing when you have an algorithm that is prioritizing one over the other, which we know that they are.
00:23:59.620 And, you know, it's, in putting together the research for this episode, you know, I'm an adult, right? I'm a fully grown person. And I struggle with insecurity. I struggle with, you know, self-image. I struggle with comparing myself to my peers. I struggle with all of that stuff. And I'm a fairly, like, confident, secure person.
00:24:20.340 When I was younger, I'm so lucky that social media wasn't the way that it was now when I was younger.
00:24:27.560 Like Annie, you were just saying, like, I know that that would have really been hard for me.
00:24:31.760 I know that I would have struggled.
00:24:33.160 I know that it just would have been a bad time.
00:24:35.980 It would not, the internet would not have been a place of self-discovery.
00:24:39.100 It would have been a place where I went to think about all the ways that I didn't measure up.
00:24:43.360 And it makes me so sad that that is exactly the experience that we are allowing for young people today.
00:24:51.000 Like that is just like their experience of being online is one of, you know, feeling bad about themselves.
00:24:58.700 And I hate that.
00:25:00.500 I hate that for them.
00:25:01.780 They deserve so much better.
00:25:03.360 Right.
00:25:03.800 Right. And, you know, as a person who, again, we've talked about this, it's like being on the inside of seeing what that damage can do, being a part of a workforce that worked with at-risk teens, trying to hold people accountable, I can't imagine.
00:25:21.080 So we have some of these leaked documents that I know, and I've seen a few tweets and articles talking about how these women specifically have felt threatened and are feeling at this point, even now, like, oh, this is dangerous.
00:25:32.660 I've come to dangerous grounds.
00:25:34.080 But with this happening internally, people have had to know, how has this allowed to happen?
00:25:39.180 What are they saying inside of this company that they're like, eh, whatever?
00:25:43.100 Like, how are they even trying to frame this?
00:25:45.800 Yes.
00:25:46.140 So let's get into that.
00:25:47.220 So one thing to note is that a lot of this pertains to Instagram, but it's important to note that Facebook owns Instagram.
00:25:53.600 They take a lot of steps to try to conceal that fact, but they're the same company.
00:25:57.380 And so here are some of the findings from the Wall Street Journal expose.
00:26:00.580 Since at least 2019, Facebook has been studying the impact of its platform on younger users.
00:26:05.240 Their research has repeatedly found that it is harmful to a large portion, especially teen girls.
00:26:09.880 Here's a direct quote from a slide from an internal Facebook presentation in 2019. 0.92
00:26:14.500 We make body image issues worse for one in three teen girls.
00:26:18.860 In another presentation, they internally said, 0.82
00:26:21.640 32% of teen girls said that when they felt bad about their bodies,
00:26:25.500 Instagram made them feel worse.
00:26:27.580 Another slide said,
00:26:28.920 teens blame Instagram for increases in the rate of anxiety and depression they feel.
00:26:34.000 Their reaction was unprompted and consistent across all groups.
00:26:36.900 And another leaked study found that 17% of teen girls
00:26:40.320 say their eating disorders got worse after using Instagram.
00:26:43.780 And, you know, so this is from their own internal documents
00:26:47.580 of the stuff that they knew,
00:26:48.520 that they talked about with each other.
00:26:49.860 Facebook also internally is aware of the link
00:26:52.760 between their platform and things like depression and suicide.
00:26:55.560 According to their internal studies,
00:26:57.240 of users who reported suicidal thoughts,
00:26:59.580 13% in the UK and 6% in the US
00:27:02.260 traced them back to Instagram.
00:27:04.200 Another transatlantic study found
00:27:05.560 that more than 40% of Instagram users
00:27:07.220 who reported feeling unattractive
00:27:08.780 said that they began feeling that way on Instagram.
00:27:11.280 and about a quarter of the teenagers
00:27:13.040 who reported feeling not good enough
00:27:14.600 said it started on Instagram.
00:27:16.560 And again, this is not really like news news
00:27:20.020 because studies have been showing that Instagram
00:27:22.720 is like the most negative platform for teens for a while.
00:27:26.300 In 2017, a study by Young Minds
00:27:28.360 and the Royal Society for Public Health
00:27:29.820 showed that Instagram had the most negative impact
00:27:33.020 on young people's mental health
00:27:34.160 of all the social media networks.
00:27:35.940 And if you're thinking something like,
00:27:38.040 oh, well, maybe this is just a social media problem,
00:27:39.820 and maybe all social media platforms are bad.
00:27:42.540 You know, yes, all social media platforms
00:27:45.080 have their negative aspects,
00:27:46.360 but these findings were specific to Instagram.
00:27:49.580 And so that's really because Instagram
00:27:51.880 is one of the only platforms
00:27:53.660 that really sort of encourages
00:27:55.840 what Facebook calls, quote, social comparison.
00:27:58.800 And so it's this thing where it's like
00:28:01.080 you are feeling pressure to compare your life
00:28:04.820 to someone else.
00:28:05.600 And so think about a platform like TikTok, right?
00:28:08.020 Like, that's a platform that is really kind of performance-based, right?
00:28:12.720 It does not invite comparison the way that Instagram does.
00:28:16.180 And so, again, like, I have definitely had times where I wake up and I scroll Instagram
00:28:21.040 and I see all my peers and their seemingly perfect lives. 0.97
00:28:26.060 And I put my phone down and I feel like crap. 0.64
00:28:30.380 You know, even as an adult, it's so easy to succumb to this pressure that you have to 0.82
00:28:34.660 be perfect and have to, like, show your best moments.
00:28:36.600 But I think especially for young people who are so impressionable, you know, it can really morph into things like depression, self-esteem, eating issues, food issues.
00:28:44.060 And we should not just be accepting that.
00:28:46.780 Like, that should not just be, like, the cost of those young people being on social media.
00:28:52.020 It should be imperative to create a social media experience that does not profit off of these terrible harm to our children, our kids.
00:28:59.460 Right. And I'm not going to lie.
00:29:00.900 It makes me want to scream, like, what's the point of doing all this research?
00:29:04.720 obviously they wanted to know but they haven't really fixed anything they haven't helped anything
00:29:10.020 as in fact when we talk about the spawn con the whole idea is like they bring on people they
00:29:15.740 sponsor people who make it look easy and it takes incredibly hard to tell what's real and what's not
00:29:22.140 because half the things is like this is definitely ad but is it because they push it forward and say
00:29:28.740 this is the ideal situation.
00:29:31.460 These people's lives is what you should seek.
00:29:34.580 And therefore, we're going to give you some help
00:29:36.920 by allowing you to buy these things to meet that standard.
00:29:40.600 It's such a weird thing because they push this.
00:29:42.620 It's a part of their narrative.
00:29:44.920 Oh, absolutely.
00:29:45.840 Like the expose showed these internal like Slack conversations
00:29:49.620 and whatever the Facebook internal Slack version of Slack is.
00:29:53.320 I can't remember what it is.
00:29:53.960 But you have people at Facebook talking about these studies
00:29:58.160 and these findings being like,
00:29:59.720 oh, like, isn't that the fun of Instagram?
00:30:01.900 You know, comparing yourself to other people
00:30:04.060 and seeing how like the 1% of like really hot people live.
00:30:08.780 Like, you know, I thought that was like the whole point.
00:30:11.240 And the way that they talk so callously about it,
00:30:14.400 like, oh yeah, isn't that what people want
00:30:16.380 from our platform to constantly be comparing themselves
00:30:20.880 to unattainable, airbrushed, filtered versions
00:30:25.060 of a reality that could not possibly exist, you know?
00:30:29.360 And just like their inability to see
00:30:31.320 how harmful that would be.
00:30:32.800 You know, I remember when I first realized
00:30:34.820 how often people are using filters and FaceTune
00:30:38.640 and things like that on their pictures 1.00
00:30:40.180 because I would see these women where it's like, 1.00
00:30:42.040 how is it possible to have a waist that thin 1.00
00:30:43.860 and a butt that nice?
00:30:44.980 Like, how are you standing up and walking around 0.93
00:30:48.780 without falling over?
00:30:49.540 It doesn't make sense.
00:30:50.400 And I was like, oh, it's not real.
00:30:53.200 It doesn't actually look that way.
00:30:55.060 And let's not talk about the fact that most of these people are white women or white community.
00:31:00.060 And so let's talk about being a person of color, really being ashamed of being a person of color and realizing, oh, it's still the standard to be white, to be small, to be, you know, young. 0.61
00:31:10.720 This is the standard that we should be attaining to. 0.86
00:31:13.660 Thank you.
00:31:14.260 One more time of something that I can't change and be.
00:31:17.620 Absolutely. 0.92
00:31:17.840 Isn't it interesting that when you use what platforms call beauty filters on a non-white face, the beauty filter pretty much translates to like, oh, you made your lips and nose thinner. 0.92
00:31:29.060 We basically made you look white.
00:31:30.580 And it's like, oh, well, so what are you trying to say?
00:31:32.220 Like, what is really, what are you trying to say?
00:31:34.680 I don't know.
00:31:35.360 I have a feeling you and I are in the same boat because oftentimes these filters, I'm like, nothing changed.
00:31:39.800 I don't understand what's happening.
00:31:41.780 You can't lighten my dark brown eyes to be blue.
00:31:45.620 What is this?
00:31:46.620 and literally being confused about how they look that way. 0.90
00:31:49.300 And I was like, oh, these are for white people. 0.74
00:31:51.640 Yes. 0.79
00:31:52.320 Okay.
00:31:53.440 I mean, and that's kind of like,
00:31:55.120 not to go off on a tangent,
00:31:56.200 but like even that concept alone is so harmful in tech.
00:32:00.400 And it's so common.
00:32:01.320 Like they just came out with a new iPhone
00:32:02.900 a couple of weeks ago.
00:32:04.680 And they're people, I don't have it.
00:32:06.780 I still have my old janky earlier model iPhone,
00:32:09.480 but apparently this is the first camera
00:32:11.480 that can actually take decent pictures
00:32:13.180 of people with darker skin.
00:32:14.940 And part of me is like,
00:32:16.040 iPhone has been out since, what, 2007?
00:32:17.620 And y'all finally realized that people 0.95
00:32:19.240 who are not white exist.
00:32:21.220 And for so long,
00:32:22.720 if you were somebody who didn't have light skin,
00:32:25.740 to get a decent picture of yourself on an iPhone,
00:32:27.920 you had to be meticulous about your lighting
00:32:29.880 and your angles.
00:32:30.640 And if you weren't, 0.55
00:32:31.240 you came out like a shadow blob monster. 0.90
00:32:33.240 And it's like, wow, finally,
00:32:34.860 after all these years,
00:32:36.040 y'all have developed a technology
00:32:37.160 that can just take my photo
00:32:38.820 and have it not look wild.
00:32:40.980 Right.
00:32:41.720 So I can't imagine.
00:32:42.660 I have a feeling that if we looked at the percentage of young teens of color, the numbers would be higher for those who are completely marginalized within that community of seeing like, oh, I really wish that I was not my ethnicity.
00:32:59.380 you know just just being going beyond that that how uh yeah it facebook is racist like let's just
00:33:06.400 add that to the caveat of not only are they sexist not only are they uh fat shaming not only do they
00:33:12.760 have all these things but yeah they are racist as well because they have again the standard 0.94
00:33:16.360 of the white man who yeah to me he is the villain in this story oh my god mark zuckerberg is the
00:33:24.480 villain, but also it's, it's, he's the villain, but also Sheryl Sandberg, like she, like there are so
00:33:31.560 many villains in this story. And I don't know how Sheryl Sandberg has not been able to be like the
00:33:38.420 public face of villainy here, but it really is like, these people are knowingly making lots and
00:33:45.160 lots of money off of the pain and harm and sometimes the deaths of our children. And it's
00:33:53.040 just, when I intellectualize that, it's like, how is that okay? How is it okay that, like,
00:33:58.360 people are getting rich off of harming our kids? It's, for all the different ways that we talk
00:34:04.520 about, you know, protecting children and protecting youth, it's like, here is a clear way that our
00:34:10.840 kids are being harmed. And not just that, people are making money off of it. And we've just
00:34:15.900 internalized that, like, that's just how it is. And it's completely unacceptable to me.
00:34:20.000 Yeah. Agreed.
00:34:23.040 Transcription by CastingWords
00:34:53.040 term and auto pay credit visit bell.ca for details and to check availability bell connection is
00:34:58.460 everything run a business and not thinking about podcasting think again more americans listen to
00:35:04.320 podcasts than ad-supported streaming music from spotify and pandora and as the number one podcaster
00:35:09.580 iheart's twice as large as the next two combined so whatever your customers listen to they'll hear
00:35:14.440 your message plus only iheart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio
00:35:19.420 Think podcasting can help your business?
00:35:21.780 Think iHeart.
00:35:22.760 Streaming, radio, and podcasting.
00:35:24.980 Let us show you at iHeartAdvertising.com.
00:35:27.560 That's iHeartAdvertising.com.
00:35:29.940 When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.
00:35:35.760 I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.
00:35:42.220 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.
00:35:45.700 I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything.
00:35:54.280 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.
00:35:58.540 I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.
00:36:03.100 I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.
00:36:10.540 They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:36:14.360 But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:36:18.020 They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:36:21.600 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:36:30.040 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:36:35.960 This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters,
00:36:42.140 pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the
00:36:46.720 same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books,
00:36:52.140 the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:36:55.560 I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.
00:36:59.140 From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments,
00:37:04.000 nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling
00:37:10.140 characters and that is a trojan horse whether you're looking for literary deep dives smart
00:37:15.420 pop culture conversations or a community of readers who love to think a little too much
00:37:20.160 you're in the right place listen to pro society on the iheart radio app
00:37:24.780 apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts see you between the pages
00:37:29.560 speaking of the villains of zuckerberg what are they saying publicly like are they have they made
00:37:44.040 any promises of change anything at all so this is where it gets juicy right so like all the
00:37:51.260 different harmful things that they do we kind of knew about that before it's new to know that how
00:37:55.720 much they knew in terms of their harm, but they also say a completely different thing publicly
00:38:02.260 than they do internally at Facebook. And so when Facebook's founder, Mark Zuckerberg, testified
00:38:06.680 before Congress in March, he said, the research that we've seen is that using social media apps
00:38:11.560 to connect with other people can have positive mental health benefits. So all of these leaks show
00:38:16.860 he knew that wasn't true. He knew all these different ways that his platform and his product
00:38:22.560 create harm. And he, it seems to me, you know, I'm no lawyer. It seems to me that he was actively
00:38:28.340 misleading both Congress, lawmakers, and the public about what he knew. And we all know, you know,
00:38:35.660 Facebook has a history of really not being honest. Again, if I were to list all the different
00:38:39.720 examples, we would be here all day. But one that I have like personal firsthand knowledge of is,
00:38:45.180 remember back in like 2016, when all these different publications were pivoting to video?
00:38:50.420 Well, basically, that was based on Facebook really deeply exaggerating the metrics of video.
00:39:00.320 And so they were like, oh, video is the thing.
00:39:02.980 Video was getting so much more attraction than any other kind of medium.
00:39:06.840 And so at the time, I worked in media, and so many of my coworkers, so many of my colleagues all lost their jobs at media companies
00:39:14.480 because Facebook overinflated and exaggerated
00:39:17.700 the metric of video content on their platform.
00:39:20.840 And so, again, I'm no lawyer, but like, that's a lie.
00:39:24.720 This would not be the first time
00:39:25.760 that Facebook has misled the public and others
00:39:28.940 about what's happening at their company,
00:39:31.140 saying one thing when another thing is actually,
00:39:33.000 when they know another thing to actually be true.
00:39:34.920 And I remember that time in media,
00:39:36.900 like Facebook made it so difficult to,
00:39:40.820 like I left media because I just felt like
00:39:44.260 Like, media companies were capitulating to whatever Facebook said.
00:39:49.520 And so if Facebook said, it's video, if you didn't do video content, you basically knew that you were going to get fired.
00:39:55.720 If Facebook said, like, we were just catering to the whims of this massive company, it just became so impossible to do that work.
00:40:02.660 And so, you know, an entire generation of journalists face such instability and chaos because Facebook misrepresented their own findings.
00:40:11.640 And so, according to Hagen's legal team, Facebook executives, including Zuckerberg, misstated and omitted key details about what was known about Facebook's and Instagram's ability to cause harm.
00:40:21.520 And her attorneys also allege that Facebook violated the U.S. securities laws by lying to investors.
00:40:27.560 And again, like, I'm no lawyer.
00:40:29.460 I'm no expert on this particular part of it.
00:40:31.360 But like, when you say one thing
00:40:34.860 when you're testifying to Congress,
00:40:37.320 when you know another thing to be true,
00:40:40.560 that seems like a problem to me.
00:40:42.140 I don't know.
00:40:42.700 I think that's lying.
00:40:44.020 I don't know.
00:40:45.220 I think so.
00:40:46.140 I think you're right.
00:40:47.580 I know when it comes to like stocks and stuff,
00:40:49.800 that is really bad.
00:40:51.200 And you will get arrested and fired
00:40:53.340 because, yeah, you just made up
00:40:55.140 in order to pretend like you have made profit
00:40:57.740 in order to make more profit.
00:41:01.180 Exactly.
00:41:02.880 It is really wild to me.
00:41:04.420 And it's one of these things where I feel like,
00:41:06.680 I don't know if it's capitalism
00:41:08.540 or just like a nuance of living in a country like America
00:41:12.440 where some things are lies and some things are true.
00:41:16.620 And I think that we've kind of accepted that like,
00:41:18.440 oh, well, of course a big business
00:41:20.320 has to like misrepresent a few things in public
00:41:23.860 to make a buck.
00:41:25.440 And it's like, wait, no, stop.
00:41:26.940 Is that really how it should be?
00:41:28.580 That we should just allow that like,
00:41:30.040 it's okay for businesses to behave in this manner
00:41:32.920 that is literally killing kids to make money?
00:41:37.320 It's like, I feel like this whole Facebook conversation
00:41:40.940 is a good place for a hard stop
00:41:43.380 of what we will allow businesses to do
00:41:46.140 without any kind of accountability.
00:41:48.200 Right, and that's been a piece of this conversation
00:41:50.640 is when people talk about regulating Facebook
00:41:55.520 or how could we potentially deal with this problem,
00:41:59.480 people have brought up other industries
00:42:01.500 and what they have done, correct?
00:42:03.920 Oh, absolutely.
00:42:04.600 So after all of this Facebook stuff was going down,
00:42:07.460 Adam Masseri, the head of Instagram,
00:42:09.060 who I have a lot of feelings about him.
00:42:11.560 I won't get into it now,
00:42:12.520 but he's just someone who, because he runs Instagram,
00:42:16.520 I feel like tries to have a kind of quirky public persona.
00:42:19.820 and it's like, well, your platform is killing kids.
00:42:21.940 So like, I don't really care about your quirky socks,
00:42:24.180 but that's either here nor there.
00:42:26.380 Basically, after all this went down,
00:42:28.020 he went on the podcast Recode
00:42:29.400 and offered a really terrible,
00:42:31.300 but also very telling analogy in response to all of this.
00:42:34.480 He said, we know that more people die
00:42:37.400 than otherwise would because of car accidents,
00:42:39.220 but by and large, cars create way more value
00:42:42.120 in the world than they destroy.
00:42:43.620 And I think social media is similar.
00:42:45.680 So that analogy is wild for a couple of different reasons.
00:42:49.140 One is just like cars, like the car industry, we know that industry is incredibly regulated by federal and state governments, right?
00:42:58.260 Like I got to take my car in every so often to get it inspected by the state and they have to tell me if it's okay.
00:43:03.840 You know, your car has to have seatbelts, this, that, and the third that are all, you know, dictated by the state.
00:43:09.120 And we know that like the auto industry had to be basically forced into adopting safety measures that they knew would save lives.
00:43:17.060 And so I hate this analogy, but if that's the analogy he wants to use, then it sounds like what he is saying is like, oh, we need to be heavily regulated so that we don't harm people the same way that the automobile industry is, right?
00:43:31.400 It's like, what's funny is that when he brought that up, the person who was interviewing him was like, oh, well, you know, the car industry is very regulated.
00:43:38.840 And he was like, well, you know, we're open to regulation, but we can't have too much regulation either.
00:43:43.620 And it's like, well, what do you want?
00:43:45.320 You just want to be able to harm people for profit
00:43:47.640 with no regulation whatsoever?
00:43:50.880 I'm like, take my analogy,
00:43:52.260 but don't really take my analogy.
00:43:53.660 Thanks.
00:43:54.020 Right.
00:43:56.840 Also, analogy often used in comic books
00:43:59.320 and is always turned around.
00:44:00.520 So this guy clearly doesn't know his X-Men.
00:44:03.720 Right, exactly, exactly.
00:44:05.420 I feel like once you,
00:44:06.340 when you make that analogy,
00:44:07.320 you're opening yourself up to so many,
00:44:08.920 like, you know, gotchas and like brick walls.
00:44:14.080 I was like, why even go there?
00:44:15.400 But one of my favorite folks in the disinformation space,
00:44:18.640 this amazing researcher
00:44:19.720 from the Shorenstein Institute at Harvard,
00:44:21.660 Dr. Joan Donovan, she's like one of my heroes.
00:44:24.000 She actually has a much better analogy,
00:44:26.720 which is big tobacco.
00:44:27.960 So we know that big tobacco companies,
00:44:29.640 they knew internally that their products caused cancer,
00:44:33.220 yet they misled both lawmakers and the public
00:44:36.160 about it for a very long time.
00:44:37.620 And, you know, that's why we had the Master Settlement Agreement in 1998, which led to some accountability for the tobacco companies, you know, misleading the public about the link between tobacco and cancer.
00:44:49.320 And so Facebook is kind of doing the same thing, misleading lawmakers and the public about the harm that they already have demonstrated that they know their product causes.
00:44:59.120 And so I think that's a really useful analogy because, yeah, like, should a company be able to mislead lawmakers in the public about the harm they know their product causes to make money?
00:45:12.380 If you agree that the big tobacco companies should not have done that, it seems like Facebook is doing something very similar.
00:45:18.200 Right. As in fact, it's doing something just as similar in that the old school campaigns for tobacco were directed towards children and saying, like, look how cool you are if you smoke.
00:45:30.040 And women, to be thin.
00:45:31.880 Yes. Yes. 1.00
00:45:33.340 It's honestly like when I heard that comparison, it blew my mind because it's the same thing.
00:45:38.240 Marketing toward young people, marketing toward women, like the way that Facebook and tobacco companies have harmed these specific marginalized groups,
00:45:46.600 groups that don't always get a lot of attention or have the biggest platforms, you know, women,
00:45:50.820 young people, it is so similar. And I think that's something that really, really gets me about this
00:45:56.680 whole thing is that, you know, Facebook, we know now that Facebook knew how harmful their product
00:46:03.080 was to young people. And yet they continued to try to market to young people, push it to younger
00:46:09.960 and younger audiences. I think on Sminty, once before I talked about how Facebook had had plans
00:46:14.560 to roll out a version of Instagram specifically for kids,
00:46:18.000 knowing that their product
00:46:18.920 was already so harmful to young people.
00:46:21.100 And they continued to court younger and younger users.
00:46:24.380 Like straight up, Facebook does not care
00:46:26.880 if kids are being hurt, harmed, killed, whatever,
00:46:30.600 if it makes them more money.
00:46:32.220 And internal documents showed that they had plans
00:46:34.440 to market to kids who were 10 to 12 years old.
00:46:38.200 They called 10 to 12 year olds
00:46:39.820 a valuable but untapped audience.
00:46:41.960 And another report suggested that Facebook
00:46:43.800 should look into a way to leverage play dates
00:46:46.680 to drive growth among kids.
00:46:49.440 You know, it is so vile that they knew
00:46:53.340 that their product had such a harmful impact
00:46:56.760 on this young demographic.
00:46:58.220 And yet they continue to discuss
00:47:00.680 how they could spread that harm
00:47:02.940 to kids younger and younger, right?
00:47:05.200 Because like, you gotta be 13 to get an Instagram account.
00:47:07.520 And they were like,
00:47:08.080 well, you gotta be 13 to have an Instagram account.
00:47:09.880 But 10 to 12 year olds,
00:47:11.020 we really gotta figure out how to harm them too.
00:47:12.740 and they're doing it for money they're getting rich off of it i swear it's a skit i've seen
00:47:18.160 the skit before about this like trying to i don't know if it was like suits or something
00:47:22.920 but they're like but we haven't gotten to the toddlers yet so how do we mark it so like diaper
00:47:28.380 formal wear was like the key and i was like what is happening is this real life it's an onion article
00:47:33.920 snl skit come to life and i think it's also hilarious and sad that you did you completely
00:47:40.480 talked about this whole idea that Instagram had of trying to get younger audiences, essentially,
00:47:47.740 and younger buyers. And you talked about the fact that y'all went in and was like, hey,
00:47:52.320 bad idea. And this was even before these reports came out.
00:47:57.080 Yes. And I mean, if they already knew their product was hurting young people
00:48:01.580 to just try to further get that lock on younger and younger communities,
00:48:06.640 It's just, I mean, I think it's just evil.
00:48:10.140 Like, that's, like, I think that Facebook is an evil company.
00:48:13.200 I think that they are making money by spreading harm to younger and younger folks, and it's just vile.
00:48:19.420 But I think it's also kind of telling, because it kind of leads me to believe that Facebook might not be as powerful as we maybe once thought.
00:48:26.420 You know, young people are not really into Facebook.
00:48:29.540 They use Instagram a lot more, but, like, regular Facebook.
00:48:31.720 Facebook is where you go to like see your weird old aunt's like nonsensical Facebook
00:48:37.220 posts or your dad's if you're if you're me my dad's Facebook post that just says the
00:48:41.300 word test like it's like not where you're going to have cool experiences and the fact
00:48:47.520 that they felt the need to lock in and market to younger and younger audiences kind of makes
00:48:53.660 me think that like maybe they're not as as big as we think they are they don't have as
00:48:58.180 as much of a hold on certain demographics
00:49:00.980 as they might need to, right?
00:49:02.920 And so like social media companies that are doing well
00:49:05.120 don't need to aggressively find all of these little scams
00:49:08.540 to lock in younger and younger users.
00:49:10.660 And we know something about Facebook
00:49:11.680 is that their MO is kind of,
00:49:15.660 I don't want to say stealing,
00:49:16.980 but like adopting things from other platforms
00:49:19.880 that are more successful with younger users.
00:49:22.220 And so when Instagram rolled out stories,
00:49:24.760 like disappearing stories,
00:49:25.660 That was essentially, you know, them copying Snapchat, which was very popular with young people.
00:49:30.980 When they started doing Reels, that was essentially them copying TikTok, which we know is very, very popular with young people.
00:49:36.220 And so the fact that they are doing all of these little things to lock in younger and younger users might actually mean that their business model is suffering because they're not getting new user base they would need to keep their platforms relevant.
00:49:49.120 And that, like, if they have an older and aging user base, you know, that model is only sustainable for so long.
00:49:54.520 And it also means that maybe they're kind of against the ropes
00:49:58.240 and we might actually get somewhere in terms of creating accountability
00:50:01.080 for the kind of harm that we know they are spreading
00:50:03.500 and mitigating further harm, which I hope is accurate.
00:50:06.740 I hope that the fact that they're doing these increasingly more desperate ways
00:50:12.020 to court increasingly younger audiences
00:50:14.060 means that they're not actually as powerful of a tech behemoth
00:50:17.620 as we might have thought.
00:50:18.540 Right.
00:50:23.940 run a business and not thinking about podcasting think again more americans listen to podcasts
00:50:31.720 than ad supported streaming music from spotify and pandora and as the number one podcaster
00:50:36.320 iheart's twice as large as the next two combined so whatever your customers listen to they'll hear
00:50:41.060 your message plus only iheart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio
00:50:45.920 think podcasting can help your business think iheart streaming radio and podcasting call 844
00:50:52.040 844-844-IHEART to get started. That's 844-844-IHEART. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and
00:51:00.500 held captive for nine months. I survived and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive
00:51:06.980 what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the Survivor Files. I just
00:51:13.140 remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. Every week, 0.98
00:51:22.040 I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.
00:51:25.500 I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.
00:51:30.080 I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed,
00:51:34.700 and I just started screaming.
00:51:37.500 They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:51:41.320 But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:51:44.980 They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:51:48.040 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:51:57.000 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:52:02.920 This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:52:15.400 I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:52:22.520 I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.
00:52:26.040 From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.
00:52:32.040 It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.
00:52:39.520 Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.
00:52:49.140 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:52:55.040 See you between the pages.
00:52:57.060 Hey, this is Hayes Davenport.
00:52:58.680 And Sean Clements.
00:52:59.860 We host the podcast Hollywood Handbook.
00:53:02.040 Every episode, we're trying to help our guests improve their careers by mainly focusing on how they can help us improve our careers.
00:53:07.660 The show is famously super accessible, so you can easily jump into any of our 650 episodes
00:53:12.380 and understand what's going on.
00:53:13.960 We recommend some of our recent episodes with Ben Stiller.
00:53:16.440 The definition of what is a movie has kind of changed anyway, too, right?
00:53:19.900 What do you think it is now?
00:53:21.140 It's images and words being spoken, captured by some sort of technology.
00:53:27.620 Danny McBride.
00:53:28.380 He loves Boba.
00:53:29.360 Oh, that's fantastic.
00:53:30.460 And you make it on, you make your own.
00:53:32.280 That's great.
00:53:33.060 I call him Tarot Reed.
00:53:34.380 that's a good name they're all named after cast members of american pie yeah i call i don't i
00:53:42.800 never looked up if she was in this but i call him lychee sobieski yeah i don't think she was
00:53:47.720 an american pie but i haven't looked it up yeah she was prominent around the same time yeah then
00:53:52.940 mary steenburgen why are you guys talking to me like i'm worried why are you talking so down to
00:53:58.540 me that you think I don't understand
00:54:00.880 your little play
00:54:02.260 game. I just really
00:54:04.000 trying to set you up for success
00:54:06.500 here. Listen to Hollywood Handbook on the
00:54:08.520 iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
00:54:10.500 or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:54:18.520 Recently, we have
00:54:20.320 seen, you know,
00:54:22.460 these bombshell accounts
00:54:24.280 and this whistleblower in Congress
00:54:26.620 testifying, and it seems like
00:54:28.540 This is an issue that, as touch people across all lines and people can relate to and care about, want to do something about.
00:54:40.000 Is that a correct assumption?
00:54:42.580 Oh, absolutely.
00:54:43.460 And that's actually one of the things that kind of excites me and gives me a lot of hope,
00:54:47.560 is that there is actually rare bipartisan support for the idea that something needs to be done about Facebook.
00:54:54.620 Democrats and Republicans are actually very much united with the idea of regulating Facebook.
00:54:59.460 After this Wall Street Journal expose came out on Capitol Hill,
00:55:03.380 Hagan testified at a hearing of the Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation
00:55:07.820 Subcommittee on Consumer Protection, Product Safety, and Data Security.
00:55:12.340 Phew, that's an awful.
00:55:13.520 And at this hearing, after she testified, her testimony was amazing.
00:55:18.020 But Republican Senator Jerry Moran of Kansas told the subcommittee chair Richard Blumenthal,
00:55:22.520 a Democrat from Connecticut, that they should put aside their partisan differences to tackle
00:55:27.000 this common goal of reigning in Facebook. And they agreed. They agreed that they had
00:55:30.860 more similarities than differences on the issue and that the differences they did have
00:55:35.420 were very, very minor. And so Blumenthal said this about the testimony. If you closed your eyes,
00:55:41.100 you wouldn't know if it was a Republican or a Democrat. Every part of the country has the harms
00:55:45.380 that are inflicted by Facebook and Instagram. And I think it is really heartening to see an issue
00:55:52.020 where everybody's on the same side.
00:55:54.520 It doesn't matter if you're Republican or Democrat.
00:55:57.140 Everybody can agree that our kids should not,
00:55:59.720 there should not be a marketplace
00:56:00.740 for the pain and the harm of our children
00:56:03.600 and that it needs to stop.
00:56:04.820 And honestly, I think they're exactly right.
00:56:07.380 We should reject this idea
00:56:08.700 that it's just okay for companies
00:56:10.740 to be making profit off of hurting our kids.
00:56:14.740 Our kids deserve better.
00:56:16.200 I don't really care what happens
00:56:17.920 to the finances of a Mark Zuckerberg
00:56:20.180 or an Adam Mosseri or a Sheryl Sandberg
00:56:22.280 if it means creating a safer ecosystem for our children.
00:56:27.000 I think they deserve it.
00:56:28.300 I mean, let's be honest.
00:56:29.120 If they stopped making money today, they'd be fine.
00:56:31.580 Better off than most people.
00:56:32.800 Oh, they'll be fine.
00:56:34.000 They'll be fine.
00:56:34.760 Like, they have enough money, they'll be fine.
00:56:36.360 Right.
00:56:37.220 But yeah, I find it interesting that this is that conversation,
00:56:41.160 that this is the one thing that's tied everyone together.
00:56:43.360 Because yeah, I think if you go to either side
00:56:46.000 when it comes to the controversial
00:56:47.580 or even the conspiracy theory level,
00:56:50.180 One thing you can agree upon is that the other believes that the other is out to get them and giving misinformation because of these social medias.
00:57:00.920 Oh my gosh, that is so true.
00:57:02.620 And it's actually like in working in like tech accountability, that's something that I always find kind of funny is that like hardcore conservatives believe they are being censored on Facebook.
00:57:13.340 Super progressive lefty folks believe they are being censored on Facebook.
00:57:17.480 Have you ever seen that meme where it's a black hand and a white hand, like shaking hands, and they both agree?
00:57:22.820 It's like, everybody kind of agrees they don't like what's going down on Facebook.
00:57:26.680 It doesn't matter what side you're on, what, you know, we all agree we don't like what's happening on Facebook.
00:57:32.840 And so it feels good to be united against a clear, common enemy.
00:57:37.340 Speaking of tech accountability, I mean, we wouldn't know about a lot of this, even though we had kind of known, but we wouldn't have had like the hard data and facts if this whistleblower hadn't come out and taken that risk and determined for herself, like we, the people need to know this.
00:58:01.420 Oh.
00:58:01.740 Yeah, so like the importance of whistleblowers
00:58:03.900 for this whole conversation.
00:58:06.860 And I know that's something that you have talked about before.
00:58:11.240 Oh, yeah.
00:58:11.920 I mean, I'm so glad that you brought that up.
00:58:13.960 So obviously this is like bombshell news
00:58:16.580 and I'm so glad that folks are discussing it.
00:58:18.400 But it is so important to not lose sight of the fact
00:58:20.880 that whistleblowers are really,
00:58:23.600 especially in tech, are really important. 0.96
00:58:25.580 On my podcast, There Are No Girls on the Internet, 1.00
00:58:27.460 we have a series highlighting women of color
00:58:29.400 whistleblowers in tech.
00:58:30.480 And it does not surprise me that so many whistleblowers are women and women of color.
00:58:36.700 And I think that it is so important to support them and to highlight their stories.
00:58:41.220 One of my favorite tech whistleblowers is, again, one of my heroes, Ifoma Uzoma.
00:58:47.200 She blew the whistle on gender and racial discrimination at the company Pinterest and
00:58:51.660 just actually passed groundbreaking legislation in California to free the victims of racial
00:58:57.840 and gender discrimination at tech companies
00:58:59.660 from non-disclosure acts.
00:59:01.520 So if you signed an NDA,
00:59:03.180 but you were the victim of discrimination,
00:59:05.300 you previously, it could be sued
00:59:07.440 if you talked about that experience.
00:59:09.060 But because of this legislation,
00:59:11.000 the Silent No More Act,
00:59:12.440 she has actually freed victims of discrimination
00:59:16.100 up to talk about their experiences.
00:59:18.280 And so, you know, I would encourage everybody to,
00:59:21.320 you know, you can listen to the series
00:59:22.400 that we have on whistleblowers,
00:59:23.500 but also in addition to listening
00:59:25.400 to Frances Hagen's testimony,
00:59:27.840 make sure that you read about Sophie Zhang's story.
00:59:30.100 You know, I mentioned Sophie Zhang earlier.
00:59:31.680 She was a former Facebook employee. 0.72
00:59:33.920 She's a trans woman of color
00:59:35.100 who was a previous Facebook whistleblower.
00:59:37.100 And she deserves so much praise
00:59:40.120 for the work of identifying harm
00:59:45.120 that Facebook was doing when she worked there,
00:59:47.140 working internally to try to mitigate it.
00:59:49.080 And when that did not work,
00:59:51.020 speaking up about it after she left.
00:59:52.580 And, you know, whistleblowing is scary,
00:59:55.620 thankless, dangerous work. And it's often the work of women. And I think that it's work that 1.00
01:00:01.600 becomes even more dangerous the more marginalized you are. So if you're a woman, it's more dangerous 1.00
01:00:08.780 to be a whistleblower as a woman than as a man. It is more dangerous to be a whistleblower as a 0.97
01:00:13.140 woman of color than as a white woman. And it's more dangerous to be a whistleblower as a trans 0.99
01:00:16.860 woman than a cis woman, right? And so whistleblowing is not this gender-neutral, race-neutral, 0.57
01:00:22.460 identity neutral thing, it really does take into account our identities. And so, you know,
01:00:27.700 I've already seen these attacks on Hagan that are like, oh, she must just be a disgruntled employee
01:00:33.240 or she doesn't really know what she's talking about. Like in their response, a Facebook comms
01:00:38.280 person was like, oh, well, you know, she never had any direct reports. She didn't really worked
01:00:42.320 on this or that, you know, really trying to minimize her experiences and her voice or saying
01:00:48.000 that she's just doing it for publicity or for money.
01:00:50.120 And it's like, people do not do the scary,
01:00:54.040 thankless, dangerous work of whistleblowing
01:00:56.380 because they want to get a check, right?
01:00:57.960 Like it is incredibly destabilizing to your entire life
01:01:02.260 and often like your family life
01:01:03.960 to blow the whistle like this.
01:01:05.960 And so I think it's important that we remember
01:01:08.160 that there are women and women of color
01:01:10.500 who risk so much and take on such a huge personal cost
01:01:14.980 to get us this information.
01:01:16.960 And I think we owe it to them to do something about it once they do.
01:01:21.020 And this story, just what you were saying alone,
01:01:24.040 reminds me of the Google employee you had brought to us as well.
01:01:27.840 And that same, like, they just want to discredit
01:01:30.560 instead of acknowledge the problems.
01:01:33.300 And so many are used to discrediting women and women of color
01:01:37.480 and women who are marginalized in the LGBTQ community.
01:01:41.040 Like, it's just such a, almost by the playbook
01:01:45.120 when it comes to the misogynist, racist ideals of the U.S.,
01:01:50.040 that unfortunately, it still kind of works.
01:01:52.560 Yes, I mean, exactly.
01:01:54.080 Like, the situation at Google with Timnit Jabru,
01:01:56.220 like, she, I think that it's,
01:01:59.300 for a lot of women and women of color,
01:02:01.100 we're already seen as, we're already marginalized.
01:02:04.660 We're already seen as, like, perpetual outsiders.
01:02:06.900 And so when we speak up,
01:02:08.280 when we practice public courage and public morality
01:02:10.720 and say, like, this bad thing is happening
01:02:12.420 and it's not great, it shouldn't be happening,
01:02:14.460 It's so easy for people to discredit us, to crap on us, to say like, oh, they don't know what they're talking about.
01:02:20.560 And I think it is so important that in the face of that, that we support women who speak up.
01:02:26.920 It's because, you know, there's already an attitude waiting and ready and willing to suppress their voices.
01:02:36.280 Absolutely. And I thank you so much for bringing their names to our attention and for bringing this topic to our attention. And do you want to, are there any resources you want to shout out? And also, where can the good listeners find you?
01:02:51.500 One thing I want to note is there are some organizations and initiatives that you can follow if you're interested in knowing more.
01:02:58.680 So you can always check out my work at Ultraviolet. 0.85
01:03:01.300 We are a gender justice organization, a feminist organization that is really working to keep gender at the forefront of tech harms. 0.72
01:03:08.740 You can go to weareultraviolet.org to find out more.
01:03:11.240 And the Kairos Foundation is actually putting together a campaign asking folks to log out of Facebook this November.
01:03:19.080 And so if you're someone who's thinking like, gee, I don't like what I'm hearing about Facebook and I want to do whatever I can to divest from Facebook a little bit more, check out Kairos' campaign this November about how you can do that.
01:03:32.880 And yeah, if you want to hear more conversations about women, whistleblowers, and just women in tech who are trying to speak up and trying to practice moral courage and trying to act as the conscious of tech platforms in the tech industry, you can check out my podcast, There Are No Girls on the Internet, where we are having conversations about what it means to practice that kind of public courage and public bravery in tech.
01:04:01.360 So we would love to have you.
01:04:02.880 Yes, definitely, definitely go check it out.
01:04:05.540 It's amazing.
01:04:06.780 You can find Bridget online also.
01:04:09.240 It always feels so weird when you're like,
01:04:11.020 this social media platform problems,
01:04:13.520 but find me on there if you would like.
01:04:14.960 Yeah, I mean, pretty much every like,
01:04:17.700 every like tech accountability organization right now
01:04:21.300 and activist and organizer right now
01:04:22.780 is going through the same thing of like,
01:04:24.400 well, I hate Facebook, but I'm on Facebook.
01:04:26.840 What do I do?
01:04:27.580 But if you want to follow me,
01:04:28.740 you can follow me on Instagram at BridgetMarie in DC
01:04:30.840 and on Twitter at BridgetMarie.
01:04:33.320 And you should.
01:04:37.400 Thank you so much for being here, Bridget.
01:04:39.640 It was a pleasure, as always.
01:04:41.920 Listeners, if you would like to contact us, you can.
01:04:44.220 Our email is stuffmediamomstuff at iheartmedia.com.
01:04:46.400 You can find us on Instagram at Stuff Mom Never Told You
01:04:48.560 or on Twitter at Mom Stuff Podcast.
01:04:50.640 Thanks, as always, to our super producer, Christina.
01:04:52.540 Thank you.
01:04:53.300 And thanks to you for listening.
01:04:54.520 Stuff Mom Never Told You is a production of iHeartRadio.
01:04:56.040 For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
01:04:57.220 visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
01:04:58.780 or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
01:05:02.880 This is an iHeart Podcast.
01:05:13.760 Guaranteed human.