00:00:49.880If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:00:55.280Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:01:03.960Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.
00:05:01.360How can we get to a more complete story?1.00
00:05:03.140It has been a repeated pattern over time that Black women are the canary in the coal mine.1.00
00:05:12.220They're the first to let us know that there may be something about to go down in the economy in a negative direction.1.00
00:05:19.620And that very often those warning signs are ignored.
00:05:23.780And so Anna and I were seeing that play out.
00:05:28.340But yes, it can be it can be really difficult to know what's happening, which is why you go back to historical patterns.1.00
00:05:33.560And when we went back and really looked at everything, we saw that black women right now are it's really it's really troubling.0.99
00:05:41.180Even in recent times, we've seen sort of an uptick in black women's unemployment or black folks unemployment and then seeing some sort of economic crisis follow.1.00
00:05:51.540it's been interesting i've been following the discourse on econ twitter which has essentially
00:05:55.880become econ blue sky where you know carms are trying to figure out right like you know our
00:06:01.960black folks are actually the real canary in the coal mine because they say it's not in the data
00:06:07.240we're not seeing that but i would argue it's because the folks who do ask those types of0.92
00:06:12.380questions their their analysis is not really lifted up in the mainstream discourse about the
00:06:18.920economy. And so when you kind of ask the question of, you know, are we being told everything?
00:06:23.440I would actually argue that people are providing answers to better understand the economy as a
00:06:29.180whole, especially as it relates to marginalized groups. But some of those answers are quite
00:06:33.600frankly not being amplified. And that's because of who's actually providing those answers in the
00:06:39.440first place. I feel that that's always tail as old as time. It's not that nobody is providing
00:06:46.240this information or doing this work, just about anything you can imagine, there is somebody who
00:06:50.680has made this their life's work. The problem is that conversation might not be amplified.
00:06:56.620And frankly, it might not be getting to the people who need to hear it most.
00:07:00.440Right. Right. That's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. And that's another point that Anna and I
00:07:06.400have talked about as we're working on this piece is, you know, historically,
00:07:10.520black women, like with the Great Recession, you know, we were seeing foreclosure rates go up among
00:07:17.440that group in particular. And even kind of in the 2006 to 2008 period, you know, rising, you know,
00:07:26.340problems paying bills, all of those things, but all too often, even the scholars and the
00:07:32.380economists at the time who are flagging that, it gets overlooked by the mainstream, however you
00:07:38.240want to define that mainstream media other things and and what's what's bad about that first of all
00:07:43.480it's it's leaving black women um to in the eye of economic storm but it's also means that we
00:07:49.760lose the opportunity to intervene more quickly um and start at such a prevent this widening
00:07:57.620economic downturn and so i think that the pattern you know social patterns don't just happen they're
00:08:03.960not just accidents. And I think it's just a larger reflection of how Black women are ignored
00:08:11.720and overlooked more broadly in our society. Even this discourse that we're having right now
00:08:16.940is, quite frankly to me, and many other Black women who study these topics,0.98
00:08:22.240really surprising, right? So when I saw that the lead story in the New York Times
00:08:26.660was, you know, featuring the work of Katika Roy, around 300,000 Black women leaving the labor
00:08:32.260force this is not something that would have been a headline even two years ago right and so there
00:08:37.940is sort of this shift now that we're starting to see around at least black women being seen as
00:08:43.000important to the economy and you know our position being acknowledged as something that's meaningful
00:08:49.440to have this country moves forward but also you know how our our job market moves for how our
00:08:55.420labor force moves forward etc and I think that that's actually a good thing that we're starting
00:08:59.920to have this conversation out in the open. And I'm really glad that Marianne and I have been able to
00:09:04.260contribute towards that discourse as well. So it's great that people are talking about this issue
00:09:08.600more. What do you think has made people pay more attention to Black women's economic realities and
00:09:13.640what it means for all of us? Why are we suddenly seeing headlines about this? I think folks are
00:09:18.640just realizing, wait a minute, that's a problem. I would also say, too, that the speed at which
00:09:25.580black would have exited the labor force is very concerning to a lot of people because at least to
00:09:31.640me and mariana and i have had a conversation about this another way to reframe this discussion
00:09:36.940is 300 000 breadwinners 300 000 taxpayers right so we're not just talking about this random1.00
00:09:45.680minority women group over there that's not really relevant to our overall um economy in our society0.98
00:09:52.740We're talking about people who contribute actual dollars to the GDP of this country.0.99
00:09:58.900What I like to say is, you know, whether or not you think black women are human is quite literally irrelevant, because at the end of the day, the economy is still going to take my money.1.00
00:10:11.120So I'm not I'm not going to go ahead and benchmark on on your bigotry because your bigotry ignores reality.
00:10:18.220Yeah, I mean, to build on some of those things, I think the other dynamic that's happening is that our government is telling us that these issues are not important anymore. And the going after and banning certain words, pulling funding on certain kinds of studies, I think there is a societal pushback to that, which is to say, actually, I'm going to want to know more about those things.
00:10:46.640And so when women and racism and those kinds of words become targeted by the government and essentially effectively trying to silence any research or discussion on those things, what that can do is say, huh, why are they trying to do that and putting the idea into people's minds that maybe we should know more about this.
00:11:09.900So I think there's that that's part of the story as well.
00:11:13.480And then, you know, we we were living through a wild moment historically.
00:11:17.560I mean, the pandemic, we're not that many years out from the start of it.1.00
00:11:22.700And it during that time with the she session and that black women were hit, you know, with
00:11:28.320the heart, one of the hardest the groups that experienced some of the biggest shocks and
00:11:33.120And so that story is not that far off the radar either.
00:11:37.060So I think there's several different factors that creates the market and interest, if you will, in all of this. And it's frankly great to see. And it is a change.
00:11:49.320and you really spoke to something i think is super important this idea of well you can you know go
00:11:56.000along with this administration not not see race i'm putting that in heavy scare quotes not think
00:12:02.080about things like gender dei whatever whatever you want to say but it's like that beyonce quote i
00:12:06.860always come back to when you play me you play yourself right and so if you if you buy into that
00:12:11.080you're just going to end up being in the dark about what is happening economically in your own
00:12:17.500a household regardless of whether or not you're a black woman regardless of how you feel about
00:12:22.240black women personally first of all we love Beyonce in this household so thank you so much
00:12:26.100for quoting our good sis I will say too you know I'm seeing a lot of folks being like you know I
00:12:34.120hate DEI I don't like diversity I don't like and the gag of the matter is maybe this country is
00:12:40.600becoming diverse whether you like it or not demographically we are headed towards a more
00:12:46.660diverse country whether you like it or not gen z was essentially half minority half majority right
00:12:55.100majority white gen alpha is now majority minority and the generation after that is going to be
00:13:01.840substantively majority minority rather than just majority white and i think that it's just
00:13:08.500irresponsible to not be considering other groups because dealing with their inequalities makes you
00:13:15.480uncomfortable. It's irresponsible, right? Because at the end of the day, these are real people.
00:13:21.060These are real lives. Folks are trying to make a buck. Folks are trying to make a life. They're
00:13:25.540trying to make a living. And so it's in nobody's best interest if a segment of our population
00:13:32.340is not, you know, reaping the fruits of their labor or not benefiting from the economy that
00:13:40.360they're contributing towards right it builds resentment but it also quite frankly it's kind0.81
00:13:46.460of stupid right so people are like oh like i'm so sorry people i'm trying to be polite i'm i can't0.98
00:13:52.240so it's like people are trying to say like oh you know why do we have to care about those black1.00
00:13:56.340folks because those black folks make up 12 percent of your population let me put it like this
00:14:01.260if 12 of your body wasn't working do you think you'd be functioning right now absolutely not1.00
00:14:11.880Well, and just that we won't have, you know, there's there's all these these forces that are coming together to shape to shape the dynamics that is laying out.
00:14:22.560But that that we won't have enough people.
00:14:25.380I mean, we already know that with the lower, you know, lower birth rates and things like that.
00:14:29.860And so we're going to need not just that our our own population has become much more diverse and especially in the younger, you know, now I think we're gen alpha is on the scene, but we will need immigration.
00:14:43.620There is actually really no way that we'll be able to to sustain ourselves like economically in terms of innovation and just jobs that need to be filled.
00:14:52.100So, you know, dealing with questions around, you know, race and ethnicity and, you know, immigrant status and all those things and it's not going away despite people maybe wanting it to go away.
00:15:07.600Both of you have referenced this idea of Black women as these canaries in a coal mine when it comes to the health of our economy.
00:15:14.740We have talked about how Black women and the health and well-being of Black women is an indicator.
00:15:20.080Like we talk about it when we talk about like the health and well-being of the Internet, how Black women are treated on these spaces really does say a lot about the overall safety and health of these spaces.
00:15:28.860But when it comes to jobs and the economy, what does it what does it look like in practice for black women to be these canaries in the coal mine of the health of the economy?
00:15:39.800So I'm a disciple of a wonderful framework that's been coined by Janelle Jones, one of my dearest friends in the economic space, and it's called Black Women Best.
00:15:52.000Black Women Best basically argues that the best outcome for black women is a better outcome for everyone else.
00:15:57.340I think the way that Janelle and Angela Hanks have put it, along with Kendra Bozarth, is if the economy is working for Black women, it's more than likely working for everyone else.
00:16:07.860And I think the way to frame this is, you know, think about a Venn diagram, but each circle represents a different group within our society.
00:16:17.600Black women are dead center of the overlapping circles in our society, right?1.00
00:16:24.280We're working class. We're middle class. Sometimes we're poor. We're highly educated. We have student debt. We're breadwinners. We're mothers. We're caregivers. Right? We serve a very important economic role amongst women in our society. Specifically, Black women have the highest labor force participation rate, meaning that we work, quite frankly, the hardest within our labor force, within our job market.1.00
00:16:50.020And so when we think about policies, especially economic policies, dealing with sort of the job market, the labor force as it pertains to black women, black women are really telling you about a lot of people's different experiences in one fell swoop.
00:17:07.700Right. Because if we are a dead center experience for our current society, especially amongst those who are most marginalized and who face inequality, then what's happening to us is probably giving you insight to what's happening to the white guy who's also struggling with the job market or what's happening to the Latina mother who's also trying to make ends meet.
00:17:26.520And so it's important to pay attention to what's taking place with us as canaries in the coal mine, so to speak, because of these overlapping experiences that we encompass in our own lived experience and in our own identity.
00:17:39.900But I would also say, too, that the Black Women Best Framework really argues that Black women are the tide that lifts all boats.
00:17:49.140And so in the book that I wrote, The Double Tax, I basically say that what Black women are currently experiencing right now is the double tax.
00:17:57.560This compounded cost of racism and sexism, which, like I said before, overlaps with all these other experiences that people are dealing with.
00:18:05.940But what I say is that if you don't address these individual costs that these black women, women of color are dealing with day to day, they become societal costs down the line.
00:18:17.980And another way I would visualize this is what happens to black women first in terms of the canary in the coal mine is almost like your neighbor's house catching on fire down the street.
00:18:28.060you see it's three houses down you see the smoke you smell the flames and you saying i'm not going0.55
00:18:34.860to pay attention is like you going back into the house and being like i'm going to go ahead and
00:18:37.860watch another episode of love island that's crazy you know what i'm saying yes because at the end of
00:18:43.840the day if that fire catches the next house next to you guess whose house is about to go up to
00:18:47.960flames it's about to be your house so and it's your best interest to ensure that the whole
00:18:54.060neighborhood doesn't catch on fire because that house was on fire let's take a quick break
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00:23:29.800okay so we've been using that phrase canary in the coal mine when we talk about how harms often
00:23:37.720impact black women before they go unchecked and harm everyone but it goes so much beyond that
00:23:43.980because it's not just that everyone should care about what happens to black women economically0.89
00:23:48.340because if we're struggling everyone else is about to be struggling too it's also that we
00:23:52.860are real people with real lives and real families and real stories who are also a really big part
00:23:59.320of our economy. There is no economy without black women. Black workers are an important demographic,1.00
00:24:06.160just like every other demographic, because they're people in our society. And so it's
00:24:13.100whether or not they're at the canary in the coal mine, and people actually reached out to me after
00:24:19.100of the piece saying, you know, it's just, it's not only because they're the canary in the coal
00:24:23.260mine that we need to care. Right. So it's, it's Diana's point that we need to make sure that
00:24:27.520everyone's able to contribute, um, in the economy, um, in, in ways that are, you know, secure and
00:24:34.480with dignified work and all of those things. Um, but the, the other ways that they, this group,
00:24:41.940when historically marginalized groups often are the first to be hit black women being, um, you
00:24:47.860You know, in recession after recession, really like they're the first hit and the hardest hit.
00:24:52.840And and that's the other thing is we can look at, OK, who's whose unemployment rates are going up?
00:24:57.940How quickly are they going up? How long are they unemployed?
00:25:01.620Like how hard is it to find another job?
00:25:04.620And it does provide like a window into likely what's about to happen to other groups as this kind of the economic squeeze spreads across across the larger economy.
00:25:16.260But the other thing I'd say I was thinking about this morning is worry. And I think worry is an interesting way of seeing into an economy where, you know, it's dynamic. It's hard to exactly know what's around the corner.
00:25:29.720But the the survey that we found that showed that we write about in the article that showed like I mean, I was pretty shocked by the statistic, which is that the there's been a massive increase in the percentage of black women who are saying that they're worried about or have said that economic conditions have worsened over the last year.
00:25:50.520So in 2024, it was 40 percent. It jumped to 87 percent in 2025. Right. So that's massive. More black women are worried right now about routine and rising bills than at the, you know, than at the early part of the pandemic.
00:26:06.480So to me, I think, you know, this is a group that, you know, it's kind of like, here we go again. And I feel like groups that have experienced this, they're faster to see what's happening because it's hitting them and more people in their community, they're connecting the dots and they're seeing things.
00:26:21.960And so as as sort of an arbiter around like what is happening and how bad could it be like this is the group that I think has sees things the clearest.
00:26:32.940So the worry was also made me made me pause.
00:26:36.640I think that they're seeing it exactly as it is.0.99
00:26:40.380The last time we saw an uptick in black women's worry was right at the very beginning of the covid-19 pandemic.
00:26:48.160So you're saying that Black women like me have not been this worried since the early days of the pandemic back in 2020? That seems bad to me.
00:26:57.700We were working on this post for a while and I was at a conference and I was in a hotel room and I was like looking at all this stuff and I, it was just like, whoa, I just, I like remember the moment that that kind of connected in my brain.
00:27:09.440And I was like, oh, yeah, no, this is, you know, I mean, it's always hard to know, again, because things change and the economy is so it can be fast moving.
00:27:18.580But I think that that this group is telling us something that's really important and we need to pay attention to it because they're almost always right.0.92
00:27:29.860Right at the very beginning of COVID, I remember seeing black women's unemployment shoot up to 17 percent.1.00
00:27:35.980I think it was 16.8% according to Economic Policy Institute. And, you know, we also saw that the
00:27:41.740recovery from the 2008 financial crisis was way slower than people were expecting, right? And so
00:27:47.420Black women were, quite frankly, the last group to recover from that crisis. And that, again,
00:27:53.680speaks to the experiences of other people who have overlapping experiences with Black women
00:27:58.600that were also suffering post-2008. And so, you know, I think that Marianne kind of hit the nail
00:28:05.660in the head. It's not just that, you know, Black women are kind of a warning signal for what's1.00
00:28:10.020happening with our economy and beyond, but it's also that this is a part of our economy, right?1.00
00:28:15.760So if a part of our economy is on fire, we need to put that fire out. And that means that we need
00:28:21.220to pay attention to those worries that they're expressing and that we also need to ensure that
00:28:26.360the policy solutions that are on the table are essentially accounting for that. We've seen,
00:28:32.580you know, Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley really called for that by specifically addressing0.83
00:28:37.420the Federal Reserve Board Chair Jerome Powell. And I think that we need more congressional
00:28:42.280leaders, local leaders and statewide leaders to do the same. I'm so glad you brought up that point
00:28:48.300that it's not just about, you know, job numbers. It's also the important piece that Black women0.96
00:28:53.680are often the first to get hit with a crisis and then the last to experience that the recovery
00:28:59.360from that crisis. What does that look like? And what is the impact, Ben?
00:29:03.580Well, it doesn't look good, right? I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's really concerning. I mean,
00:29:09.020the other thing, as you know, is doing the kind of work on this piece was just, you know, the point
00:29:15.400that black women were still losing jobs when the Great Recession was declared over. Like,
00:29:22.800how do you declare a recession over when people are still losing their jobs in sizable numbers?
00:29:28.780So, yeah, and I think what it does is that it shows how hard this group in particular gets hit, but then how little is done to actually kind of support the group that is struggling the most.
00:29:50.980And why is that? And then and then what the concern is over time is that certain groups are less left worse off and worse off and worse off, creating, you know, this kind of effect that makes it even harder for for black women to to get back to the other point about black women best.
00:30:08.280My understanding is that we were barely back to a point for Black women where their employment had returned to where it was pre-pandemic, right?
00:30:18.520So now it's like this kind of churning happening, and it's very difficult for people to kind of get security, have any social mobility.
00:30:28.040And again, that has implications not just for those groups, but for our economy overall.
00:30:33.300Black women hold a very important economic position in their communities and in society at large. So we know that quite a few mothers are breadwinners in their household. I don't know the number exactly. But Black mothers, I believe 69% of them are the breadwinners of their household.0.54
00:30:58.200So just let's think about that for a second. They have people relying on them. Kids, grandparents, relatives, sometimes family friends. And so if you're losing income because you're dealing with cuts to the federal workforce.0.98
00:31:18.100cuts to industries where you're disproportionately represented it's not just hurting your pocketbook
00:31:27.160it's hurting the economic future of your household and i think we need to really contextualize
00:31:35.680what role black women especially black mothers are playing in their communities they're upholding0.71
00:31:42.060their communities they're strengthening their communities through their dollars through what0.93
00:31:48.380they're able to invest in with their dollars and so what happens when those dollars disappear
00:31:53.300entire communities are impacted it's so interesting i had um an event yesterday in dc
00:32:02.100and someone had asked a question about you know how are black men affected by what's happening
00:32:06.660to Black women. Well, Black men are in community with Black women. And oftentimes, Black men
00:32:13.620are being supported in some way by Black women. And so if Black women lose, Black men also lose.0.97
00:32:22.320Black children also lose. But also, Black men, Black women, all these different communities0.97
00:32:28.180are in different places across our country they're not just right in a black neighborhood
00:32:38.400they can be in white neighborhoods they can be in mixed race neighborhoods they're in different
00:32:42.400class levels so we're not talking just about you know this singular group in this vacuum in this0.99
00:32:48.340silo we're talking about 12 7 in some cases for black women of the population what happens when1.00
00:32:55.8807% of the population can't meaningfully contribute to our economy? The answer is simple. Our economy0.62
00:33:02.620shrinks and those communities suffer. I mean, there's simply no way forward without Black women1.00
00:33:08.320politically, economically, socially, family-wise, community-wise. We just, we just, we don't get to1.00
00:33:14.840where we're going without including us. Clock it. Exactly. That's right.
00:34:40.440Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.
00:34:44.980I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.
00:34:49.440I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.
00:34:57.060They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:35:00.960But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:35:04.400They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:35:07.520Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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00:35:22.420This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
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00:39:39.260And so I think, you know, for a long time now, for for so long, there's been calls for policies to to address the real obstacles to, you know, black women employment or mobility or opportunity.
00:39:54.920And it just you know, it's we have eras where it feels like there's a lot of progress.
00:40:01.480And then, you know, as soon as as some of the things start to shift, I feel like it comes back down hard again.
00:40:08.800And that is, again, reflective of how black women are in the eye of the economic storm because they are so, so marginalized.
00:40:18.860I love what Marianne said there. You can't individual your way through sort of these economic crises and inequality writ large.0.84
00:40:27.140that's also that's always been true actually i feel right like just across time movements of
00:40:32.880people lots of people have pushed the thing you know pushed our society forward um and i feel like
00:40:41.300you know if i had to give like a very practical piece of advice to people who are listening
00:40:47.360especially black women if you have a union in your workplace i need you to join it like yesterday
00:40:53.000okay so like absolutely please join your union um you can join your union as a grad student i know0.78
00:40:59.440we love school so if you want to if you want to go back to grad school right make sure you join
00:41:04.540your grad school union it's extremely important that you're protected because what marianne is
00:41:10.480saying is so true and also what you're saying too is speaking to you know our our shared lived
00:41:17.380experience. But the reality is like the labor market, the job market, more specifically,
00:41:24.200fundamentally undervalues women's work and even more so undervalues black women's work,
00:41:30.740despite all of the sacrifices, all of the hours, all of the effort that we put through,
00:41:37.220right, or put forth. And so it is sometimes up to us collectively to fight for each other.
00:41:45.720because you know i hate to say it like this but no one's coming to save us
00:41:49.560they never have right oftentimes when we throw ourselves a lifeline we actually end up saving
00:41:57.880everybody else and and that's all to say that you know of course other people need to be involved in
00:42:05.200the process of making sure that marginalized groups like black women are not falling behind
00:42:10.420But can I be honest with you? I don't really trust people. I don't. I'm so sorry. Marianne knows this, right? So my dissertation for the sake of the current climate is talent development and acquisition. But what I really study for those listening is to make it really, really hard for your boss to be racist, to be a bigot.0.95
00:46:56.820is this and I just feel that the way that that is talked about is with such disregard and it almost
00:47:05.740it almost is like it's it's like a sneeringness about these women who really have been doing so
00:47:10.740much to keep our government running doing sort of thankless probably unglamorous work have is
00:47:16.460this something that you all have seen yes so you know what I love about the double tax is that it
00:47:22.620really validates black women's experiences and women of color more broadly that I think a lot
00:47:28.220of people will play in our face and say you know like you you're not really qualified for this
00:47:33.600right or oh you know that person only got in because they're a DEI hire or whatever
00:47:37.800but we know from the data right is that black women experience the highest turnover
00:47:43.880the lowest promotion rates and are more likely than any other group to be labeled as low
00:47:50.000performers in the workplace. This is work by Elizabeth Lino, Sanaz Mabasri, and Nina Rousset.
00:47:56.080We know this. This is the data that's speaking. We also know that when it comes to promotions,
00:48:01.100this is the work of Marianne Cooper and the woman in the workplace report. I love citing this work
00:48:06.360in the book, that for every 100 men who were promoted in the workplace in 2024, on average,
00:48:15.82081 women were promoted black women it was 54 the lowest promotion rate amongst all women groups
00:48:25.640and so you know it's interesting i i look at these stats and then i look at the black women that i
00:48:33.520know and i think about the ones that dot their i's and cross their t's which is mainly most of us
00:48:39.140quite frankly yes yes because this is the reality there's very little room for error very little room
00:48:47.080for error i know a little something about feeling like there's very little room for error because0.73
00:48:55.080black women especially black women in positions of power are not really allowed to make any kinds
00:49:00.640of mistakes on the job so we have to cross our eyes and dot our t's it's just the reality of0.99
00:49:06.260being Black women in the workplace because we know that it comes with a ready-made attack that0.86
00:49:10.720you're only there in the first place because you're a DEI hire. And we also know that it won't0.97
00:49:15.680take much for us to be on the chopping block. Want an example of a super qualified Black woman1.00
00:49:21.320being mischaracterized as unqualified? Just look at Lisa Cook. So currently what's happening in the1.00
00:49:28.400news is you have very prominent Black women being attacked by the administration in a number of
00:49:35.740different areas. But let me maybe talk about the one that I know the most. So Governor Lisa Cook0.96
00:49:40.880is a name that is now a household name. I love that for her. I hate the reason why it's a household
00:49:45.540name for right now, but you know, her work is very brilliant. So Governor Lisa Cook is an economist,0.93
00:49:52.280a macro economist, one of the best, I would argue, in the profession. And she currently0.56
00:49:57.960occupies a role at the Federal Reserve Board of Governors. For those who are like, I don't know1.00
00:50:03.020what that is? Does that affect me? Yes, it does affect you. And what that is essentially is the
00:50:08.880group of economists that manage the group of economists that manage the economy, right?
00:50:14.180So these individuals ultimately make the call on interest rates, which I know folks I've heard
00:50:20.640about, because if you're going to get a loan to buy a house, you're looking at interest rates.
00:50:24.880If you're going to think about, you know, inflation, you're thinking about the grocery
00:50:28.740prices at your local grocery store. And so these are the individuals who are making those really
00:50:33.600important decisions that reverberate not just through our economy, but through the global
00:50:38.400economy, right? So it's not that what's happening here is just happening here. It's actually relevant
00:50:44.020for the UK. It's relevant for what's happening in Ghana, right? Because everybody's looking to
00:50:48.200the U.S. about how our dollar is going to be affected, essentially, by the decisions that
00:50:53.720the fed makes so what's happening right now is this woman is being attacked this black woman is
00:51:00.700being attacked and a lot of people are saying you know she was unqualified unqualified for a position
00:51:07.360that the president of the united states appointed her for let's just state that fact right the
00:51:15.520president biden appointed her to this position let me tell you something about dr cook1.00
00:51:21.340probably the most qualified person to ever serve on the fed ever i'm not even kidding this woman
00:51:30.920i'm gonna rattle off and then i'm gonna make my larger point went to oxford went to uc berkeley
00:51:36.740went to spelman made history as their first marshall scholar worked the white house worked
00:51:42.520at the treasury worked on the council of economic advisors was appointed to a presidential transition
00:51:47.900team to lead the very group she's now a part of, right? She's worked at four out of the 12
00:51:56.000Federal Reserve banks, not including her current position, which would make it five. So she's
00:52:00.600worked at at least a third of the regional banks that contribute to managing our economy.
00:52:06.140She has advised people in Asia, in Africa. I'm looking at the phone with shock because guys,
00:52:14.660I'm confused. I'm looking for the lack of qualifications. I can't find anywhere. Here's my point. My point is black women. People look at us. They see our skin. They see our hair. They see our brilliance. And they have to trick themselves into saying there's no way that person can be all those things at once.
00:52:34.660a lot of these people who are saying you know black women are not qualified what they're really
00:52:40.580saying is diversity is at odds with merit there is no way that something can be meritocratic
00:52:46.040and you can also be black there's no way but what the data suggests is very clear the folks
00:52:54.180who get a leg up if we're spilling the tea it's not us we actually get a leg down we get a leg
00:53:31.640However, this is not to say that even though the stack is built like a wall against us, nobody can take away the fact that we are objectively qualified.
00:53:47.800Yeah, I mean, it is always interesting to notice when the meritocracy narrative is unleashed, and then when it's not.
00:54:01.640And my own kind of thing I often think about when this topic comes up is that with the women in the workplace report stuff.
00:54:13.900So this is a collaboration between McKinsey and lean in.org.
00:54:18.160And we just had our 10th report last year.
00:54:20.880And it's, you know, each year there's tens of thousands of employees who do the survey and we have a lot of data.
00:54:25.900And so it's great. It's so much data that we really can see some very interesting patterns.
00:54:31.420But what I have noticed over time is that we periodically have this question like, you know, do you want to be a top executive or senior leader or whatever?
00:54:40.720And what I've noticed from an aspirations standpoint is that black women have higher aspirations to senior leadership than white women and black women's aspirations are similar to those of white men.
00:54:53.180But when you look at the pipeline, so you look at from entry level all the way up to the C-suite, what we see is white men are the group that becomes overrepresented over time.
00:55:04.840So they start out, you know, entry level, they're like something like a third of employees that by the C-suite, they're over half.
00:55:12.240And so and then so for black women, it's sort of it's it's they they start out and then they're they're underrepresented at each each step up in that in that pipeline.
00:55:21.820And so my larger point is like we either there's sort of two ways to look at that.
00:55:28.940And in terms of understanding it, you can either think that white men are smarter and work harder than everybody else or something else is going on.0.52
00:55:38.820And we have now, you know, many decades of social science research showing us that there's something else that's going on.
00:55:45.220And these are the biases that that are in all these different kinds of people processes from hiring to performance evaluation to other things.
00:55:55.580But the the idea that black women are not as competent as as other groups of people is to what Anna was speaking about.
00:56:04.700There is no room for error because you have this higher bar and people are watching you.
00:56:09.340And so the women that do get through and particularly the women of color that do rise up through an organization or a field or whatever, they're usually better than everybody else because they have to be.1.00
00:56:24.140So it's an interesting phenomenon that we can still, though, have such a strong narrative that somehow all of these people, in quotes, which usually is code for, you know, folks of color, particularly women of color, somehow are holding positions in which they are not qualified for, have not worked hard for, and just do not deserve.
00:56:46.500The data shows the opposite, I think, which is also why there are attempts to stop collecting the data.
00:56:53.200If you want to hide or ignore a social problem, you just stop collecting the data.
00:56:59.320I mean, you could also manipulate the data, which I'm also worried about.
00:57:02.300But in any case, this is this is the idea that somehow the black women holding jobs in federal government were there because they didn't deserve to be is is just untrue.
00:57:15.060But they, again, because of those massive job cuts to the federal government, because black women held a higher percentage of jobs there, they got hit really hard in that.
01:02:03.800If you encounter a Black woman in a high-up leadership position, nobody gives us anything.0.97
01:02:09.640So just know that she not only clearly deserves that position, probably, frankly, deserves to be higher.
01:02:15.420Like, nobody is more qualified than a Black woman in a leadership position because of how good we have to be to be led in the door at all.0.86
01:02:24.780Do you think they would, like, this idea that Black women are being given positions they don't deserve but are not qualified for,
01:02:30.240It's just it's almost funny to me as someone who's been in the working world for most of my life.
01:02:36.020Yeah, it's it's well, you know, it's sort of like that bitters.
01:02:57.300I mean, that's the whole thing about in the start of the administration, DEI and, you know, the pilots and stuff like that.
01:03:03.980And I'm like, no, it's like any time you're looking at a pilot, surgeons, whatever that, you know, again, because of the higher bar, because of the racism and sexism, because you've been continually discounted, you know, mistreated, all those things.
01:03:19.760the people who make it to the top in those roles who who are members of these historically
01:03:24.580marginalized groups they are by definition the best of the best um so i'm actually always happy
01:03:31.900when my pilots are dei folks yes and i wanted to ask you about this because i know in the book the
01:03:41.360double tax what i love about it is that it's you're not just sort of laying out the facts and
01:03:46.500the figures of the situation it's also conversations and stories what have women that you talked to for
01:03:51.300the book told you the women i've spoken to well let me be honest like uh i spoke to some women
01:03:57.660we had a team of women who spoke to women so you know who we spoke to they confirmed everything
01:04:03.600that we're talking about right now right and i think that's kind of why i had to bring the data
01:04:08.600because it's not like we haven't been having this conversation this conversation has been long had
01:04:14.000for so many years. And I think, you know, when it comes to Black women who are just trying to1.00
01:04:22.080make it to the top, the title of this chapter is called The Broken Rung, which is inspired by
01:04:29.600the Women in the Workplace Report. What I argue is that, you know, women in general are climbing
01:04:36.560a ladder with rungs that are more further spaced apart. But for women of color, especially Black0.91
01:04:42.360woman, those rungs are broken. What do I mean by that? I mean, as we climb to the top, it costs us
01:04:48.180something. It always seems to cost us something. I can be very practical here and say it might cost
01:04:53.480us our hair texture. You might not be able to rock as many braids, which is why I think like
01:04:57.860Deshonda Duckett is such an important form of representation right now. She rocks braids in her1.00
01:05:04.240Fortune 500 speaking circuits, right? Which I think is very, very important. But I think
01:05:10.720there's a lot of nuances that I want to introduce here if we're really getting into it
01:05:16.340when we spoke to black women about you know what you what are the challenges that you deal with in
01:05:22.320the workplace Marianne might not be surprised by this but some people listening might be1.00
01:05:28.160you know what they said they said white women
01:05:32.220now we're laughing because we know that's he but i think it's important to bring this into the
01:05:41.260the the forefront because i think that you know we've been talking a lot about comparing black
01:05:47.160women to white men and how white women are absolutely overrepresented in the highest paid
01:05:53.200professions by far the data supports this this is um data from the center for american progress i
01:05:58.520believe they make up at least 52% of every single one of the top 10 highest paid professions as of
01:06:05.6802019. But when we kind of dig into the actual workplace experience, a lot of times women are1.00
01:06:12.860interacting with women. And this is where the double tax can also arise, where I say in the0.77
01:06:19.540book, white women are navigating the patriarchy at work, right? You're still dealing with sexism.1.00
01:06:24.380You're still dealing with gender inequality. This is why we need sort of the fortifying ERGs, if you will, the employee resource groups to assist as we're moving through the workplace. But Black women, well, Black women deal with the patriarchy too. And they also deal with white women.
01:06:43.760And what I mean by this is that there are some white women in the workplace, according to Black women that we spoke to, that shared that, you know, when they're just trying to do their job, they're questioned, right?
01:07:02.500So they're getting the question of competence from white men, and they're also getting the question of competence from white women.
01:07:10.460And what's interesting is that study I cited a while back with Elizabeth Linos and co-authors, what they found was if there's a higher share of white women on your team as a black woman, you're more likely to lead the organization in addition to white men.
01:07:28.260So it's not just that white men are driving the turnover of black women in the workplace.
01:07:34.760And that's what our stories corroborated.
01:07:37.200And I think this kind of puts us in a little bit of an awkward spot, right?
01:07:40.100because a lot of times when we're having these conversations about women in the workplace,
01:07:43.940we don't really talk about race. Have you noticed? I have noticed. I've noticed. We don't talk about
01:07:50.280race. And it's interesting because it's interesting derogatory. Let me start there
01:07:56.720and say that like we're missing stories that are really important because what's happening to the0.99
01:08:03.220black woman in the workplace at some point will filter through to the white woman because who
01:08:09.620becomes expendable is relative. You get rid of all the black women, it's just going to be the next1.00
01:08:14.240group that whoever is empowered thinks is expendable. And oftentimes that is white women.1.00
01:08:19.900And so I think that it's incumbent on us to have very honest conversations about the difference
01:08:27.780in experiences that we have as women. One of the big reasons why I love this book,
01:08:34.200why Marianne, by the way, was one of the experts on the chapter that I'm talking about. So this is
01:08:38.740all not not new to her right is because it really forces us to reckon with whether or not being a
01:08:47.620woman is a monolithic experience and what this book basically says in bold print and into a
01:08:55.620megaphone is is absolutely not the same experience across the board and we need to have a lot more
01:09:02.720conversations about why there is no single story of women and we lose a lot by trying to just say
01:09:10.740if there's you know women this and women that it's like there are vast inequalities among women
01:09:15.620themselves um by obviously by race and ethnicity but also by social class and also um by age i
01:09:23.860think is another one that that is not talked about enough and so um just yes we need to have a more
01:09:30.800I think there's so much variation. We need to have that be part of the conversation rather than thinking that there's just like one one experience because it's just it's it just overlooks, ignores a lot of different stories that are unfolding and obscures, I think, the stories that are most important to tell.
01:09:51.880And it just speaks to the way that Black women, our experiences, can really get lost if we're not having these intersectional conversations about what's going on that really highlight, like, what it is that we're dealing with, what it is that we're up against, and how those are all playing out.
01:10:10.140So the piece kind of ends with you all saying that, you know, these early warning signs are only useful if listened to.1.00
01:10:17.960Let's not miss the one Black women are sounding yet again.0.97
01:10:21.200So what does it look like to actually hear and respond to this warning that you all are pointing out?0.98
01:10:27.140I mean, I think one thing that a lot of Black women economists have said is like, we need to, first and foremost, even know that the warning exists.0.96
01:10:34.720And that begins with disaggregating the data.
01:10:36.920So I think local and state leaders who have access to data about the labor market, who are paying attention to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, dig into how different groups are being impacted by these job cuts.
01:10:51.020by what's happening with sort of these slashes to industries that are disproportionately affecting
01:10:56.860Black women. I think it also means really thinking about why it matters that Black women
01:11:04.720in particular stand to lose the most at this time. Black women are breadwinners, right? They're moms,
01:11:13.700they're individuals who are just trying to make a living and make a life, as I said before.1.00
01:11:16.780And I think using Black women as a benchmark for your policymaking is extremely helpful because it says, okay, Black moms are under pressure right now. Let's go ahead and design a program locally or statewide to ensure that we can support moms that might be in similar positions, right?0.72
01:11:37.400or black young folks can't find jobs right now.0.94
01:12:05.080in the opposite direction of something
01:12:06.700that is headed their way and you have a choice either you can run alongside this is a running0.97
01:12:12.140joke right because every time you see a black person run you're supposed to run too that's0.98
01:12:16.000usually the case right um but you see a black person running you see a black woman running0.99
01:12:21.260the other direction and instead of being like oh she's a fool for running the the sun is out0.99
01:12:26.960things are great and you decide i'm gonna pull out my picnic blanket and read my book0.99
01:12:32.020you should ask her why are you running what are you running from right because oftentimes she has
01:12:39.500a vantage point that you can't comprehend or maybe you don't have the perspective to see
01:12:44.020and in this case going with this metaphor she's running from a tsunami that's coming her way
01:12:48.760and so she's gonna try her best to get to safety but one thing you gotta know this is the double
01:12:54.060tax come on metaphor is that she's got an anchor on her ankle right something a weight on her ankle0.54
01:13:00.720So she can't run fast enough away from it. But if you who has not that weight, not that pressure, not having to deal with racism and sexism at that level are also heeding the warning, you can go into town and tell everybody else, hey, we got to prepare this and this.
01:13:16.560And so by the time she gets there, she's not swept up in the storm. So I think that's the way I would say we meet this moment. We don't ignore, you know, what's taking place. And we don't stop by just saying, man, they're a warning signal. And then we don't heat it. There's no use in hearing the alarm and not acting on the emergency. If there's an emergency, we need to do something about it. Otherwise, we all stand to lose much more.
01:13:44.660Yeah, I think that that sums it all up. And if if we ignore this, I think it will will be back on our heels pretty quickly here. And if we get in front of it by actually listening to black women, we could prevent a lot of pain for everybody, but particularly for black for black women.
01:14:09.100So it's just too many times black women's experiences in the economy, but otherwise have been ignored. And it leaves almost everyone worse off as a result.
01:14:39.100production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.
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01:16:13.500I'm Nick Turturro. You probably know me from NYPD Blue, The Longest Yard, or Spike Lee's Black Klansman.
01:16:19.460And on my new podcast, Delivering Happiness with Nick Turturro, I deliver pizza to a new guest.
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