00:01:52.980and particularly people who experience harm from these systems, or harm from surveillance,
00:01:58.040or harm from, you know, all kinds of power imbalances in society.
00:02:07.300There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.
00:02:15.420I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.
00:02:18.140So I talk a lot about the harm that technology has been responsible for, particularly in
00:02:25.700marginalized communities. But ultimately, I am a tech optimist, and I see criticizing and
00:02:31.440critiquing technology and demanding it to be better as an expression of my deep love of
00:02:36.380technology. You know, I love it enough to want it to be better and to really believe that it can be.
00:02:42.200And that same ethos is what drives Mozilla's Solana Larson as well.
00:02:46.800Hi, Bridget. I'm Solana, Solana Larson, and my title is editor of the Internet Health Report on Mozilla's Insights team.
00:03:00.400Solana and I worked on a podcast for Mozilla called IRL, where together we explored the peril and promise of AI.
00:03:08.520For Solana, this work is grounded in optimism around the possibilities of technology.
00:03:14.820She saw all the positive ways it could be used to shape our world early on.
00:03:18.960But after watching the ways technology has been used to facilitate things like mass surveillance and criminalization, it got hard to be so optimistic.
00:03:27.380Originally, I wanted to be a journalist.
00:03:40.900And there were very few people who had started to talk about the possibilities and the opportunities.
00:03:49.800So I guess I was really excited about how the Internet could bring us together.
00:03:53.540And for the first 10, 15 years of my career, it was all about how can we use the Internet to create bonds between people in different countries.
00:04:01.960I worked for a website called Open Democracy, which was all about global politics and exchanges of ideas, different perspectives from around the world.
00:04:10.000And then when blogs started happening, I became the editor of a website called Global Voices that was pitching itself as an alternative to international news or as an accompaniment to international news, I should say, using the voices of bloggers from all over the world.
00:04:28.260So I've been working in this realm of digital activism, citizen journalism, and really trying to use the Internet to bridge people's understandings of one another.
00:04:40.000And I think after some years of doing this, a lot of us who were very optimistic about the Internet started to sour and just started to see a lot of surveillance, a lot of people ending up in jail.
00:04:54.940You know, for those of us who are working in international communities, a lot of like the Arab Spring uprisings, things that were happening around the world that were all around Internet culture were backfiring in a sense.
00:05:07.860And then, you know, with the Snowden leaks and all we learned about surveillance around
00:05:12.620the world, it was just difficult to find a way to be optimistic about, you know, the
00:13:13.000So lots of organizations do an annual report every year.
00:13:16.560And if we're being honest, maybe no one really reads them.
00:13:20.440But Solana and the team at the Internet Health Report at Mozilla wanted to do something different.
00:13:25.220They decided to release their report as a podcast anchored in the real life stories of the researchers, activists and technologists who lived them.
00:13:33.620Oh, I mean, working on this project with you has been, I mean, I could talk all day. It's been a dream for me. But I think you're so right. There's something about it being a podcast where you get to hear in your earbuds the stories and the voices of these people.
00:13:50.240And so like the stories are really the thing that that centers the work. And so I just think there's something about hearing people explain themselves and explain what it was like to, you know, realize that you were working on a project involving killer machines at Google or, you know, lose your wife from cancer and want to make sure that other people didn't have to suffer the way that you did.
00:14:11.440And so building something to prevent it, like there's something about hearing the voices of the people at the center of these stories that really makes them come to life in a way that, you know, I don't know that that reading a report ever could.
00:14:23.740But it's what I really enjoy about your podcast as well, is the way you get close to people, but then you also use that as an entry point to discuss the politics or to discuss the technology.
00:14:36.100And I think people need that entry point to topics like this, because a lot of the time when we do hear about them, it is just like cold.
00:14:45.880I mean, who cares about a computer, right?
00:14:48.200You care about the people and how they're affected by that computer.
00:14:51.680So I think that that's why it's been great to work with you on this. And I'm also curious to see what you'll carry into the work going forward, you know, and being able to explore all these stories together of these people around the world. It's been great.
00:15:09.440I do feel like when it comes to topics like technology or especially AI, I think someone
00:15:17.540who doesn't think of themselves as like a hard tech person might think, this has nothing to do
00:15:22.260with me. And I like the way that the internet health report really frames those stories in a
00:15:28.240way that's so accessible. That's like, actually, there is a lot of impact on your life if this is
00:15:33.800the way that AI is being used by governments, by law enforcement officials, by, you know,
00:15:39.440other agencies. So I guess I wonder, you know, how do we make people understand what's at stake
00:15:45.940and how have you worked to make people really be able to see themselves reflected in these
00:15:51.200issues that you care so deeply about? Yeah, it's tough because you can also get,
00:15:59.840sometimes you can get too superficial on some of these topics. Like, I think people understand,
00:16:05.320oh okay here's social media you know like there's there's disinformation or this is how i'm affected
00:16:11.220by social media or like you can you can find some of those entry points easier and i think we've
00:16:16.400gone a little bit deeper you know we're also looking at okay but how does this work in health
00:16:21.960care or how does this work in governance or what is it that's really happening with surveillance so
00:16:26.760i guess one step removed from the user's cell phone so it does require some imagination
00:16:34.960from people but i think you know that's where the stakes really get a lot higher and where you're
00:16:40.080talking about life and actual death and the the really confusing thing about this topic is that
00:16:47.800your the entities that you have to be concerned about are also the ones that you're friends with
00:16:55.380and you use every day so i'm thinking specifically about big tech you know google we probably all use
00:17:01.380every day for our email or internet searches and stuff and then to be confronted with this
00:17:06.580fact that they also are involved in you know mass surveillance in different ways through their
00:17:12.820cloud computing contracts or contracts with the with the pentagon or other um agencies
00:17:19.240these are difficult things to uh to grasp or amazon you know we shop on amazon or but you know
00:17:28.720Amazon also has relationships with the police or also has a stake in surveillance tech.
00:17:34.740And so and with governments, governments survey and they do a lot of things, but we also need them to make policies and to be our friends and to protect our privacy.
00:17:45.020And so it's a difficult topic to navigate because, you know, everybody's wearing so many different hats.
00:17:54.780And the things that need to happen, like so many different things need to happen at once for like massive change to happen.
00:25:22.540AI will do this. AI does that. It is really easy to think of AI and other technologies as
00:25:31.860doing things, but really it's the people and companies behind that technology that are doing
00:25:38.140the things. You know, AI doesn't discriminate against people of color or strengthen the
00:25:43.380surveillance state. It's the people who make AI that are doing that. Computers and the internet
00:25:48.480are powerful tools. And the people who shape those tools at scale have a responsibility to
00:25:53.360make them safe. I'm reminded of something that you said to me early on working on this project
00:25:58.740together. You said that you, in writing the Internet Health Report, try to stay away from
00:26:04.000assigning motivations or intentions to technology. So instead of being like, oh, AI does this,
00:26:11.520it's like, oh, the people who make AI does this. How has that thinking shaped your work? Because
00:26:17.940I do think that it's really easy to think, oh, technology is just going to do what the technology does.
00:26:23.680It is neutral. But that obscures the fact that there are people behind it that make decisions and that that can be so difficult to keep at the forefront.
00:26:35.600Yeah. And especially with AI, you know, there's this fantasy of an autonomous robot or some kind of computer brain that does stuff on its own.
00:26:44.600and it doesn't it doesn't help us get anywhere you know that's just not how it works it's these0.97
00:26:50.440are systems created by people that are actually kind of stupid in the way that they work you know0.97
00:26:55.980you give them data they learn I mean we shouldn't even be using the word learning right but they0.98
00:27:02.060replicate or they're able to spot patterns and so when you highlight some of some of the errors or
00:27:08.960or the false, you know, findings of systems like this, you just you start to realize that
00:27:15.520it's not always all that it's made out to be. You know, there's a lot of marketing lingo that
00:27:21.100that these systems get wrapped up in. And so when, yeah, I'm completely allergic to when people say
00:27:28.440AI does this, or AI will do this, or AI will make this, like, the only way that AI is going to do
00:27:34.940anything is if we people, you know, ask it to do something. Exactly. You know, so we've talked a
00:27:43.440bit about some of the harms and sort of the difficult things to accept about the way that
00:27:49.240technology and AI has functioned for so many folks. But like, you also strike me as someone
00:27:54.600who is quite optimistic. You know, your work at Mozilla is really about getting to a web and an
00:28:01.760internet that we want. What kind of web do you want? Well, I want one where more people are
00:28:09.260involved. Like that's, I don't, I don't imagine that we can completely change how big tech works
00:28:17.600overnight. These are, these are extremely powerful systems. I think right now it's about
00:28:24.840ensuring that alternatives can also coexist and that the web can be a place where people can
00:28:32.060create things for their own communities and you know where there is that openness and opportunity
00:28:39.780for creativity yeah to enable those kinds of collaborations because that's where I still see
00:28:45.000that there is a lot of positive and important work to be done and oftentimes it's these smaller
00:28:51.160projects or grassroots project or the project of an individual or even artistic projects that can
00:28:56.780kind of set an example for what we would like to see happen on a bigger scale so it's hugely
00:29:02.340important that we all be creating or co-creating or thinking about how we can build things together
00:29:09.120and this isn't just something for technical people to think about this is something for i think all
00:29:15.260different sectors to be thinking about together because i think the really interesting thing or
00:29:21.480challenging thing about ai is the way that it is becoming a part of all kinds of different
00:29:28.540businesses all kinds of areas where there is data all kinds of governance or even the non-profit
00:29:35.820world anywhere where there's data there's an opportunity to use ai in some way and sometimes
00:29:41.780it can be in ways that are genuinely helpful to i think you know rights causes and that's that's
00:29:48.220what we've been trying to highlight in the podcast too looking for people who are doing something in
00:29:54.420a different way and that you know when you see people who are building their own data sets or
00:30:00.760creating their own voice recognition systems for their languages you realize the imbalance that
00:30:07.760there is that you know it wasn't created in the first place that these things don't exist already
00:30:12.680a lot of ways that technology and systems are designed to work we just sort of take it for
00:30:17.620granted right we just think oh that's just the way it it is but it doesn't have to be and so we need
00:30:23.900these people to shine a light on how could it be different or where is that injustice or what is
00:30:29.560the data that's missing how could we be approaching this problem differently and that does not mean
00:30:34.840that, you know, we need to teach big tech or big companies how to do it. It might just mean that we
00:30:41.120need to find ways and find resources to do these things ourselves. Our show is all about identity
00:30:47.460and the internet and how it can really impact how people who are traditionally marginalized,
00:30:53.300like what they bring to these conversations. Do you feel like your identity as like a Danish
00:30:58.180Puerto Rican woman, like, like, does that impact this, this kind of optimism that you have about
00:31:04.160an internet that is more inclusive includes more people more collaborative um do you think that
00:31:09.400your identity has shaped what you bring to the work um yeah i think it does it definitely i mean
00:31:16.260i think it impacts my approach to everything really because i've got some north in me i've
00:31:20.940got some south in me uh i've got some different languages um and different experiences and so
00:31:27.880when you're able to kind of step out of yourself and see something from a different perspective
00:31:32.860i think when you're willing to do that at every level you know it can give you a lot of empathy
00:31:39.840but also some imagination for how how things could be or or how they might be so yeah it is a big
00:31:46.000part of it even even more though i think is just working with communities for so many different
00:31:52.020years who have been using the internet to to do good in different ways particularly with the
00:31:57.820global voices community where we also had so many translation projects with uh you know citizen
00:32:06.140journalism that was translated in different directions and just reading news stories from
00:32:11.380around the world firsthand perspective news stories from around the world yeah i just know
00:32:16.660a lot of strange things about uh different parts of the world um so yeah that's that's definitely
00:32:23.980part of it. But I think when you're working with an organization like Mozilla, you do come into
00:32:30.640contact with a lot of people in communities who have that sense of optimism or have that drive
00:32:37.740to try and build something and do something. And that is very nice. When it comes to the
00:32:42.940state of the internet, are you hopeful? I'm hopeful about some things. And those are the
00:32:53.120ones that i try to focus on i spend a lot of time convincing myself not to get too mad about uh or
00:33:01.980too too jaded or too upset about you know the global surveillance society um i do feel like
00:33:10.060a lot of things are getting worse particularly when it comes to surveillance and lack of privacy
00:33:14.940and the way these systems are just kind of taking over really important things in dangerous
00:33:23.040ways so i'm concerned but i also see a lot of good things happening and having worked just on
00:33:32.260this project for the last five six years the conversation has evolved we we are and i mean we
00:33:40.240as humans all around the world and in the media and even on social media there's a lot more
00:33:48.720understanding for how these systems work what the harms are what the potential is um you know
00:33:55.740five six years ago there there hadn't been that was just like the beginning of Cambridge Analytica
00:34:01.600there's been so many um data privacy policies a lot of things happening in a good direction as
00:34:09.600well so it's always about yeah trying to see both the good and the bad at once um and keeping both
00:34:16.820those things in focus so that you can keep moving forward. That's, I mean, you, that's it in a
00:34:22.740nutshell, right? The internet technology, it's really about being able to hold two spaces at
00:34:29.660once. Like, oh, this is such a powerful gift and this technology provides such a good opportunity
00:34:35.260for connection, but it can also be used to do some really scary, horrible stuff. I feel like
00:34:41.300you've just really summed it up nicely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's everybody's
00:34:45.440daily experience, right? Like you probably love Twitter and you probably hate Twitter or,
00:34:50.760you know, I love that I can do things easily online or order food or a delivery or whatever,
00:34:57.820but I also hate that these systems are exploiting people in the worst possible way.
00:35:02.740So yeah, we need to work together and we need to fight back because these systems didn't exist